Latest / Authentic Living / The Effects of Technology on Addiction & Mental Health with Dr. Rick Cziernik

Transcript

The Effects of Technology on Addiction & Mental Health with Dr. Rick Cziernik · Authentic Living

0:01
Welcome to authentic living with Roxanne, a place where we have as conversations about
0:08
things that really matter in our lives.
0:11
And now here's your host, Roxanne Derhodge.
0:35
Everyone.
0:36
It's Roxanne Derhodge.
0:37
Thanks for tuning in again today.
0:39
I have a colleague, Doctor.
0:40
Rick Sernick, here with us.
0:43
Who has taken his time away from all his busy teaching and marking and end of term things.
0:50
So Doctor Cernig, thanks so much for being here with us.
0:54
My my pleasure.
0:55
So I gotta tell you a little bit about him because I've known, of you.
1:00
I'm going back.
1:01
Well, I'm talking about I'm gonna I'm gonna age myself, but about 30 years ago, when I started
1:08
the in the field, we were involved in, EAP Councils way back when.
1:12
I don't know if you remember that.
1:14
I
1:14
was involved in the Toronto EAP Council.
1:16
I think you were involved with the Hamilton EAP Council at that time.
1:21
And, so that's when I start to kick around in the field.
1:24
And ever since, obviously, have gone on to do a lot of different things working with a bigger
1:29
provider, Warner Chappell, and you've, gone on and continue to do really great work at the
1:34
university.
1:34
So I'm gonna tell you a little bit about, Doctor Cernick.
1:37
He has an masters of PhD.
1:40
He's a registered social worker.
1:42
He's a professor at the school of social work at Kings University College has written edited
1:47
15 books.
1:48
Why that's amazing, including just see, no, a counselor's guide to psychoactive drugs,
1:54
homelessness, housing, and mental health, practicing, social work research case studies
1:59
for learning the drug paradox and re responding to the oppression of addiction.
2:03
And I'd like to talk a bit about that.
2:06
And you've done over 200 peer review articles and books, and you've speak spoken at over 200
2:14
con conferences and workshops.
2:16
And, you've been involved as part of the research team that have received over,
2:21
$3,800,000 in funding and then has been the recipient of the King's College University And
2:27
McMaster University Continuing Education of the year, teacher of the year award as a as well as
2:33
the Humellen Excellence in research Wow.
2:37
You've been busy.
2:37
Try
2:38
to keep myself.
2:38
I try to keep myself busy because there's lots of work out there that needs being done, right,
2:42
which is what your listeners appreciate.
2:45
Doctor Ceramic, let's let's just kinda jump into it.
2:48
I know, obviously, you're out there.
2:50
You're teaching.
2:50
You're researching.
2:51
You're writing and, about mental health and addiction.
2:55
So oftentimes, I think it's come to the forefront.
3:00
We're recognizing that the world health organizations saying it's a number one issue we
3:05
need to be concerned about.
3:06
It's increasing.
3:07
We're seeing it over and over again.
3:09
Unfortunately, with your young adults are coming up, there's lots more concerns.
3:14
Why do you think we're seeing an increase at such a level with with the Met and addictions
3:20
around us.
3:21
Yeah.
3:22
I think the demise of, human civilization was the fax machine.
3:27
So if you go back and you're old like I am, there was a point in time when you worked and
3:32
you got a phone call from a boss, You got a complaint from some of the community, and you
3:38
had time to respond in writing and think and reflect upon this.
3:42
And I don't joke with the fax machine.
3:44
And suddenly, one day, the fax machine showed up around 1985, my office, and suddenly my boss
3:48
was immediately accessible, is that the world's immediate accessible.
3:52
And so you need to think now in context of mental health and addiction about the human
3:56
brain.
3:56
Right?
3:57
I'm an evolutionist, so I believe that we've been evolving over millennia.
4:01
And when we move from daylight savings time, right, standard time, this is big shift.
4:07
People can't sleep.
4:08
There's more traffic accent.
4:09
There's all disruption.
4:11
Our brain literally hasn't caught up to shifting an hour.
4:14
Our brains haven't caught up to the advent of electricity yet.
4:18
We're just sort of ketchup to electricity in 24 hour daylight.
4:21
And so now suddenly, in one generation, within my generation, we've gone from typewriter to
4:27
fax machine, to PC, to internet, to the phone that most of us have in our pockets, has more
4:34
power and more ability than the computer that took Apollo to the moon.
4:39
So in one generation, our brains that had to change and adapt to a constant inflow of
4:44
information.
4:45
Some good, some important, some irrelevant, but constant information, and we just have not had
4:50
the chance to adapt and change it.
4:52
So what happens when you're constantly taking information from work when the demands of work
4:56
are 247, within 7 days a week, when I go to bed at 1:30 in the morning and by 8:30 in the
5:02
morning, I respond emails already.
5:04
It is just overwhelming for the human body.
5:07
So the biggest element, I think, not just millennials, but those of us are older as well,
5:11
is that the pace of work has changed in a way that not even the industrial revolution was
5:17
equivalent to.
5:18
And so in terms of physical health, well-being, taking time to simply breathe because most
5:23
North Americans don't know how to breathe.
5:25
We're all top lung breathers.
5:27
And so, I mean, in a very quick element is that the pace of work has changed so dramatically
5:33
such a short period of time that we've not been able to physically and psychologically adapt to
5:39
it, nor will we in the interim because, again, evolution is slow, but technology is fast.
5:47
So and and and it's getting more rapid as we go.
5:50
Right?
5:50
Like, I mean, everything instant in this day and age.
5:52
Like, you know, when when you're sending someone an email and, you know, within your
5:58
your off to to say do something or see another client or, you know, and you're out.
6:02
And then an hour later, you have that person asking you where the response is.
6:06
Like, even our ability to to wait, you know, has increased.
6:10
It's it's it's lessened.
6:11
Like, text immediate, even email now is getting to the point where people get ready and
6:16
patient.
6:17
Yeah.
6:17
So an hour, right, an hour is the end of the world if someone doesn't respond to an hour.
6:21
As I said, back in 1984, if I can respond in 3 days, I was a good employee.
6:26
You're
6:27
right.
6:27
If I don't get back in 30 minutes, what am I doing with my time?
6:31
And so the expectation of this immediacy is a big deal.
6:35
So in my counseling classes, I'm working with social work students in terms of helping people
6:38
with addiction, mental health issues.
6:40
The biggest point I now make is simply to be present with people is just to sit and listen
6:46
and to give them some space because that's what we sort of lost.
6:49
I mean, look what we're doing right now, we're doing a podcast.
6:52
Right?
6:52
Like, 2 years ago, what were podcasts, right, and now suddenly, they are the way to convey
6:57
information and they're very convenient.
6:59
And that's a difficult because email and texting and podcast technology makes life much
7:05
easier and simpler when it's functional.
7:08
Mhmm.
7:08
But what happens when your technology goes down?
7:11
And we just want to get in ransomware issues that hit, life labs.
7:14
Right?
7:14
It changes our whole business structure.
7:16
So the other pressure, of course, is to keep up with technology, continue to invest in
7:20
technology, which then makes it up a huge cost outlay for organizations, and a con constant
7:27
new source of information.
7:28
So in terms of me knowing about social work and addictions and workplace wellness, I now have
7:32
to know about technology so I can do the other parts of my job.
7:35
So there's a lot more expectation, I think, on us as well to be well versed in different areas
7:40
of Roxanne than it was again when I began my career in field.
7:44
So, you know, let's go back to what you're talking about.
7:46
The evolution, our brain, the technology is so quick that our brain trying to catch up.
7:52
Right?
7:52
And like you're saying, we're not disconnecting.
7:54
If you think of a lot of people, now we have these, you know, the the thing about, you know,
7:58
the blue ray for looking protection against screens.
8:01
And lots of things that I'm thinking, you know, when I was growing up, like, I grew up in
8:05
Trinidad and Temika, my mother would kick us outside and say, okay, guys.
8:08
Come back in when it's time for a snack or you know, whatever.
8:11
So we were constantly surrounded by green, and we were playing, and we were, you know, having
8:15
conflict and figuring out how to make it better.
8:18
All that stuff now is gone.
8:19
Right?
8:20
It's literally gone.
8:21
It's a fascinating because one of the difficulties we're fighting is some and if I
8:25
mean, I'm talking about some, not all younger students, young individuals who'll be joining
8:29
the workforce the next few years is because of this disconnection from sort of each other and
8:36
from nature and society, is that they're having a hard time communicating.
8:39
They're having a hard time being face to face.
8:42
So what that means is that when you're an employer, You've got a new employee.
8:46
You're trying to correct them or give them new directions.
8:48
They're not used to getting a lot of direct face to face feedback.
8:52
And so that's a new thing as well.
8:54
I mean, the notion of telephone etiquette, which is funny for you and I, but, I mean,
8:59
teaching telephone etiquette when you're used to texting and emailing is a skill set.
9:04
My my young son, not that young and more twenty five year old, finally got his own by out to
9:09
school got his own apartment, and had to give his landlord checks.
9:13
He said, dad, how do I write a check?
9:15
He never written a check his lifetime.
9:17
Never needed to to to converse in commerce Right?
9:20
And so again, what people of art generation who tend to be more leadership positions do
9:25
acknowledge is that this younger generation has these wonderful skills.
9:29
There's also deficits which consider deficits because they've never had to engage in these
9:33
behaviors The extension of that is, as you say, there's less of this growing up outside where
9:39
you learn how to deal with your conflicts, where you learn to develop your sense of
9:43
assertiveness And when you're all a distance, it's easier to get into a screaming war via
9:49
internet because there's no immediate ramifications.
9:51
But you can have the behavior in a workplace because there are immediate ramifications.
9:56
For sure.
9:56
So you have the over, Overactive mind.
10:00
Yes.
10:00
And then you have, the practical element of not practicing to connect.
10:06
Like, I mean, I'm of of the older generation.
10:08
When I people get on the phone with me, I, you know, I still use the phone all the time.
10:12
I go, you know, here's the deal.
10:13
I don't wanna talk on the phone.
10:14
Can we get together?
10:15
Because I for me, because that's what I'm accustomed to doing.
10:19
And Yeah.
10:19
Obviously, trying to do that with the younger generations is a little bit more difficult.
10:22
They're like, well, can't we jump on a Zoom call?
10:24
Can we do a Skype, you know, whatever?
10:26
But it's it's so true.
10:27
I go back to the traditional things.
10:29
Yeah.
10:30
Now even in our pa fast paced world, even the older generation is having trouble inquiring in
10:37
their mind.
10:39
Well, absolutely.
10:40
I mean, and literally, and I hate to say it as I'm aging is I think I just don't recall things
10:45
as well.
10:46
On the other point in time, is how important is it, as you say, to sit down and have a coffee
10:51
with somebody to me is that it's relationship building, right?
10:54
It's how you get to know someone.
10:55
And when you build relationships, it's easier to have conflict.
10:59
So you and I again have known each other our path across for 3 years.
11:02
So we're having discussion and something goes south It's not that we don't have a history
11:06
together.
11:06
We don't know each other's background and professionalism.
11:09
So it's easier and conflicts never easy.
11:12
But it's easiest for us to either move beyond it or not get hung up on it.
11:16
Right?
11:17
And so if you don't have a lot of time getting to know individuals, building relationships,
11:21
understand people's foibles and eccentricities.
11:23
In my case, I get old.
11:24
I'm no longer strange.
11:25
I'm no eccentric.
11:26
You need to get to know those elements.
11:29
They're not almost forgiven, but, okay, if that's what this person is, I know that's what
11:32
they're like.
11:33
And if I just move beyond this, we can move forward with our deal, move forward with our
11:36
conversation.
11:37
Mhmm.
11:37
But if you only have someone through Zoom or Skype or a text for some emails is that you
11:42
don't understand those personality traits and it's also easier to lose yourself and not be as
11:48
reflective about your strength and where you have more trigger points in terms of what
11:52
upsets you or what just turns you up your mind off.
11:56
So, Absolutely.
11:58
I think there's a then there's a there is a generation gap now between people who are
12:02
technological immigrants like we are, but we're new to technology and people like my children
12:07
who've grown up with flip phones, smartphones, and now, you know, Instagram zoom, all these
12:12
elements.
12:12
It's part of their inherent almost DNA for us, for us, we have to think about it.
12:17
So we are we are 2 different cultures.
12:20
So let's let's pivot to that whole element of what we're knowing that anxiety and depression
12:26
is is growing in a rapid.
12:29
Now employers you know, gone are the days.
12:32
I used to think of when I started back in the EAP world where, you know, people you would
12:36
have, you know, employee assistance programs and companies were just kinda having it at the
12:40
bottom to say we have this resource, for people to get assistance.
12:44
Now it's a given that most organizations are looking at it because it's costing them so much
12:50
money between their incidental absences, the presenteeism, the absenteeism, their short term
12:57
claims, and and course, you know, between short term and long term, if people go into long
13:01
term, the the the past costs.
13:04
So people always think about the element of when they hear the issue
13:09
of addiction or mental health, they always think
13:09
really, really sick like, you know, but they don't think of the entire spectrum.
13:18
So I want you to talk about that continuum from mental well-being all the way up to the
13:23
continuum of mental health and addictions.
13:26
Yeah.
13:27
So, again, a good thing, is right.
13:30
Mental health no one talked about now it's constantly being discussed.
13:34
So the question you have as a researcher is, is this a new phenomenon?
13:38
And there certainly is different stressors now than there ever was if we've just talking
13:41
about, or are we for the first time welcoming the conversation?
13:46
No longer embarrassing.
13:47
I had left for the call the other day who was a very important person, well educated, and the
13:52
work had just overwhelmed the individual.
13:55
And so they said, I'm going, I'm not well.
13:58
I went to the hospital for mental health treatment as if they had their appendix out.
14:03
And so that has changed as well too is now we are going earlier in the process, which is
14:08
wonderful.
14:09
EP has been around now and well established in Canada for half a century.
14:13
And so they're not the strange thing that you're not worried about losing your job in the
14:17
early days of employee assassination programs, employee systems programs.
14:21
And so we've got that other element as well.
14:24
Are there more mental health problems?
14:25
And so you can say yes, or we can say, as you're indicating, are people now less hesitant
14:32
to hide them more likely to come early in the process, have different resources.
14:36
And then the lovely thing is that about the media is now you have these, we'll call them
14:41
roll balls, but you have prominent individuals in, media, in movies, music, who themselves
14:48
say, you know, I've gone to a rehabilitation program I'm taking a break from touring.
14:52
I'm not gonna, be in a movie this year because I've gotta take care of myself and my family.
14:56
So that has also occurred in parallel with this increasing stress from technologies.
15:01
We've got 2 interesting phenomena occurring.
15:04
Certainly in the workplace, I make the joke that no one is normal.
15:09
If you actually know what the human brain is like, we've got these 50 different primary
15:14
neurotransmitters that are running through our brains that balance us.
15:18
And they literally are determining our mood, determine our, aggression, our affect, our
15:24
relationship.
15:25
All those things are prominent And so if you have too much dopamine, I don't know if
15:29
serotonin before we didn't know any about this, but now we have medication that again can
15:34
balance you and it's not a shame to take a medication.
15:37
It's I've got influenza.
15:39
I've got diabetes.
15:40
I've got anxiety.
15:42
So now we've got some medical aids.
15:44
We've got minor issues that are obviously not overwhelming.
15:46
So that's a wonderful aspect as well now too.
15:49
So we can go forward.
15:50
You can deal with it.
15:52
And I've got all sorts of colleagues in the helping professions that because of the helping
15:56
professions recognize the fact that, hey, genetically I was born this way, is just like
16:01
taking my insulin every day.
16:03
The typically becomes, again, there's still shame, there's still stigma in these areas.
16:07
And so what happens if you don't go?
16:09
You don't have a sport of workplace.
16:11
Well, then the problem becomes more severe and you start getting into short term disability,
16:15
long term disability.
16:17
And those individuals those organizations that have lots of long term disability claims.
16:21
I'd ask them to look at what their organizational structure is and I'd ask them to
16:25
look at what they're doing in terms of promoting mental health at an earlier stage for
16:29
individuals.
16:31
It's it's not when or if so it's not when it's if.
16:36
I actually don't know anyone in my lifetime that would not benefit from counseling.
16:39
Woo hoo.
16:40
Doing issues with your family.
16:41
Issue issues of relationship.
16:43
Issues with your children, issues in the workplace.
16:45
I mean, how do you get to the age of sixty in my life without having had numerous losses and
16:50
tragedies The same thing now when you're twenty years old, what may seem like a minor issue is
16:55
someone at 60, you've only lived 20 years.
16:58
So this is a big monumental shift in your life.
17:00
So the notion of what's major and what's minor, it's really relative to individual.
17:06
I'll tell you a story in my career.
17:08
I was working with the trial fire department was doing some training with them.
17:12
And one of when, firefighter came up to me and said, I don't know what happened.
17:15
And now we'd call it PTSD.
17:16
We didn't have the language back then.
17:18
But he was in a fire situation and he was going to rescue somebody.
17:21
One of his colleagues gotten to that person instead.
17:24
He was coming down the ladder.
17:25
So he was in risk.
17:26
The individual had been saved.
17:28
His colleague was safe, and he froze on the ladder.
17:31
And it was just what had happened there because he'd been in so many fires, so many situations,
17:36
and suddenly, he they literally had to help him off the ladder.
17:39
So we also don't know what you and I would be a minor.
17:42
It's caused that there's no risk.
17:43
There's no fire.
17:44
There's no danger, and you can't walk down any longer.
17:46
I mean, it's high right ladder.
17:47
And so, again, that individualization.
17:51
So we ask for a continuum, and people do have serious mental health issues.
17:55
They'll lose a loved one there'll be a a car accident with a child who died at 30 and would
18:00
just spin them off.
18:01
So there's all these incidental issues that you need EAP support for.
18:05
You need counseling support for.
18:07
There's biological elements that you have to blame your parents for.
18:09
You can't control whatsoever.
18:11
And then there's that accumulation of just life sticking to you.
18:15
Right?
18:15
Mhmm.
18:16
And again, we're now looking at individuals in the sixties seventies, typically are the
18:20
workforce who have secondary addiction issues because they've suffered so much loss in their
18:24
lifetime, and you're shaking your head.
18:25
You appreciate this.
18:26
So much loss in their lifetime, that they don't even realize they're trying to alcohol and
18:30
drugs, but the loss of job, the loss of ability, the loss of family, the loss of loved
18:34
1, loss of relationship, all these losses build up.
18:38
But those can build up when you're 3545.
18:41
This is easy when you're 65.
18:44
So, I mean, there is, I mean, it's a wonderful question because the answer is life produces
18:49
mental health issues.
18:51
We take work home with us, and we take home to work with us.
18:55
And that interaction If you've got no control or stress in both areas, that makes you more
18:59
vulnerable to the technology and the stress and the pressure and the ongoing information flow.
19:06
So the answer, I mean, you struggle with your question with it.
19:09
The answer is if you don't have employee assistance program, if you're not constantly
19:13
asking about employees wellness, then you are asking to have short term long term disability
19:18
issues in your workplace.
19:20
So that's an interesting point about like you said, secondary addiction.
19:24
So talk a little bit about that because I know when I was would look at data for, issues with
19:29
substance related issues at work, Generally, it was not an addiction.
19:33
It was generally people would be misusing to your points to to be able to cope with life's
19:38
issues, and then we would get them to kind of address the the situational, stressors, and
19:43
then they would go they were able to go back to a certain level where it didn't impact
19:46
different, relationships in their life.
19:49
So definitely, the addictions piece, obviously, that's the part that scares everyone.
19:55
Yeah.
19:55
Right?
19:56
Because I think it's kinda like, you know, they we think about the the addiction is something
20:00
so separate and so horrific, but really, anybody to your point could get to the point
20:04
where they're misusing substance because they're not having the proper strategies or or
20:10
coping mechanisms to be able to deal with the stickiness of life that that you described.
20:15
Yeah.
20:16
And that's exactly it.
20:17
And so there's certainly are people who are more biologically, at risk.
20:21
They've got family histories of substance abuse, Again, there's some brain chemistry
20:25
that's not quite balanced.
20:26
And so if I'm having 3 alcoholic beverages and there's having 3 alcoholic beverages, I'll get
20:31
started feeling a little bit Tipsey, but they would then just sort of escalate.
20:34
So, yeah, we wanna acknowledge the fact that some people, it's biology.
20:38
But for most individuals, as you nicely summarize there, It's the combination of
20:43
aspects in our society.
20:45
I mean, the facts that I say, let's go have a drink.
20:48
I mean, it turns out the bat, it ever means we have to go have a beer, glass, and wine, let's
20:51
go shot.
20:51
We're not thinking let's cover cranberry dudes.
20:54
Let's go have a drink of water.
20:55
I mean, that notion, it's so encapsulated.
20:58
The slogan I'm using now, so the model I'm now using in my classes are you the fish that sees
21:03
the wateriest women?
21:05
Is that so I asked my students to look at the movies they're watching, listen to songs
21:08
they're listening to, and just how much is alcohol and drugs integrated in that, culture.
21:14
So you don't even think about it.
21:15
It was not a coping mechanism It's just a day day reality of our life.
21:19
Let's go up.
21:19
It's Christmas time.
21:20
Let's go for a drink.
21:21
Right?
21:21
Let's go for eggnog.
21:22
Ignnog's got roaming it.
21:23
Right?
21:23
I mean, all these little subtleties.
21:25
And so it's very easy when you're with someone to not acknowledge the fact that their
21:29
substance use is increasing because they're basically doing the same behavior you are
21:33
that's normal because you're doing it, but it's just creeping up and creeping up a little bit
21:38
because, again, they don't have those other support.
21:40
So work is stressed.
21:41
They may have gone through divorce.
21:43
Their children may be away at school, and they're lonely, may have loss of parents.
21:46
And everything I just listed has happened to one of my students in the last 2 weeks.
21:50
So all these elements, you know, all these elements happen to individuals.
21:55
And so when alcohol is part of our normal culture, and it's what we do to celebrate,
22:01
relax, but also cope.
22:03
It's so easy just to increase that.
22:07
We know there's lots of anxiety and stress, so to go your physician and say, look, I've got
22:11
anxiety.
22:11
Can I have, some sort of medication?
22:13
Absolutely.
22:14
But you add that medication to your alcohol.
22:17
You add it to my mother just had, a fall and injured herself.
22:21
So she's got some, coating sitting around her house.
22:24
So now you've got your prescription medicine.
22:26
You've got your alcohol, and you've got a legitimate, pain masking agent.
22:30
And suddenly, 1+1+1 is not 3.
22:34
It's 5.
22:35
And as you said, that pattern behavior of drug use starts becoming a central organizing
22:41
principle of your life, but it's really about your injury, your loss of your child, the loss
22:47
of a relationship all adding up.
22:49
And we see with addiction is that other coping mechanisms going for coffee with a friend, you
22:54
know, talking to people at work, going to yoga class, go ahead and play basketball, those
22:59
drift away because the drug use is easy.
23:02
I mean, going to yoga, give me a get up, put your sweat go see years ago.
23:05
Get sweat pants on.
23:06
Go go hang out.
23:07
Lie around for a while.
23:08
This is wonderful.
23:08
Hit back in the cold.
23:10
Oh, it's minus 10 degrees out.
23:11
I'm on with the cold.
23:12
Of a bourbon instead.
23:14
So because alcohol and other drugs are also easy coping mechanism, we can gravitate to them
23:19
because no one says a second thought about it.
23:21
I could say, you and I went after a podcast.
23:23
We weren't virtual.
23:24
We went for a drink.
23:25
No one think twice about it.
23:27
Right.
23:27
Absolutely.
23:27
Yeah.
23:28
But I go for a drink at lunch with you, then go for one after work, then I go for one after
23:32
dinner, suddenly it's not just a drink any longer.
23:35
So and it becomes a a creeping effect.
23:37
And before you know it, the person realizes that they're at they're they're not able to
23:41
control it anymore, and they're going home.
23:43
Maybe after you've had the the one drink with them at dinner, and they're having a couple
23:46
more, and then they're staying up later, and then it's a vicious cycle.
23:50
So Yep.
23:51
So when when we look at kind of the issue with mental health, it is definitely on the
23:55
increase.
23:56
And, obviously, the maladaptive element and the social norms associated with, hey, let's just
24:01
have a Christmas drink.
24:02
People are kind of gonna be using that much more.
24:05
Yep.
24:06
And this is this is a high risk.
24:07
And then, of course, we go from Christmas with friends and family, which is a celebratory
24:11
time, unless you're not don't have lots of friends of family, and then it becomes instead
24:15
of a positive affect, a negative affect, and we roll right into New Year's Right?
24:20
And so I've got I've got a friend of mine.
24:22
I don't drink much alcohol, but I drink on occasion.
24:24
I have a friend of mine who's not a member of AA but has not drank for 30 years.
24:27
I mean, he and I go out and they say, yeah, we'll have a couple of pops.
24:31
Right?
24:31
Everyone's having beers around us to kinda look.
24:33
What's wrong with you guys?
24:35
Right.
24:36
The question becomes, well, there's nothing wrong with us.
24:39
We just don't choose to have alcohol.
24:42
Right?
24:42
Mhmm.
24:43
Mhmm.
24:43
Yeah.
24:43
And so it's it's fitting in its expectations going towards New Year's and because we
24:49
associate alcohol with celebration, we tend to miss the fact that people are using it when
24:54
their their mood is down.
24:56
When they're trying to cover up things or ignore things as well too.
24:59
So it gets blurry then, again, with those cultural norms you mentioned.
25:03
So let's, for the employers listening, we talked definitely.
25:09
Sounds like it's it's more than just you know, the things that we can put in place, right, the
25:13
health and wellness strategy, the health coaching, all those things.
25:15
You really your culture has to support one of what we're going back to which we started to
25:20
talk about, which is just going back to that human element of, connection And, you know, I
25:27
think the busyness of work and expectations and and people are working remotely, and there's so
25:33
much going on that we're really the basics of sitting across from someone and checking in and
25:38
saying, hey, Rick.
25:39
How are you?
25:39
Well, like, what's new?
25:41
What's happened?
25:41
What are you looking forward to next year?
25:43
Those those basic things are being lost.
25:45
So how can employers kinda keep that in mind as they develop strategy for mental health and
25:51
wellness in the workplace?
25:53
The, the best boss I ever had.
25:55
Now name him, because he was the best boss I ever had.
25:57
His name was Abe Friesen.
25:58
And this was back when we worked with Addiction Research Foundation.
26:01
So it wasn't business where our job was Korean community health.
26:04
We did emergency counseling.
26:05
So we had some paperwork.
26:07
We had some, unexpected, uncontrollable parts of our work And so it was quite a a mixed, job.
26:13
Enable was wonderful because every day, we would have coffee as a and we're a small unit.
26:18
We don't have coffee every day, and I don't drink coffee.
26:20
With addiction research updates.
26:21
I don't do any drugs at all.
26:23
And so we we have so I sit there and watch my colleagues drink coffee, usually decaf a
26:26
coffee, and what Abe was doing every day was checking in.
26:30
I mean, it'd be 10 minutes.
26:31
And so not rushing off to do an email because there's no email at that point in time, but he
26:34
just wanted to see how everyone was doing.
26:37
And so we also have something now called managed by walking around.
26:41
And my partner just retired, and she's, again, she was another good, very good leader, because
26:45
she was my partner, of but she basically knew that if her staff was not feeling well, they
26:53
couldn't be productive.
26:55
So even though she's a lawyer, even though she's a lawyer, she spent part of her day doing
27:00
sort of check ins and how you doing.
27:02
And so as a leader, it took more time from her.
27:04
There was certainly a cost for her, but that cost in building relationship with her staff
27:09
saved her all sorts of aggravation because when someone's having a good day or bad day, she
27:15
would know when there's a crisis in office, she had built relationships.
27:19
So the person Stephan said, oh, I'm fine.
27:21
We're trying to hide a mistake would say, yeah, I did this knowing that she would be supportive
27:25
of them as opposed to criticizing them.
27:28
So those elements of, you know, if you're in a leadership position, and I know this is gonna
27:33
cost you time, but it's like prevention work.
27:36
Right?
27:36
We put the time in early.
27:39
We save our time down the road.
27:42
So prevention yes, it may take a bit more of your time.
27:45
But if I think if if you look at it from an ROI perspective, you are gonna be saving yourself a
27:50
whole lot down the road because then people are Yep.
27:53
We know life's gonna happen to your point.
27:55
All of us, I I'm in my fifties now, and I I you know, we've all been through things the way
28:00
we've been stressed or down or whatever.
28:03
And that tumbling weed that I often say is if you don't do it up early and you leave it, then
28:08
you're gonna see the incidental are you gonna see the person trying to kind of, like you
28:12
said, go off and get some medication, but don't get the the behavioral kind of, taken care of.
28:17
And then it becomes a revolving door.
28:20
Right?
28:20
And that's costing.
28:21
That particular employee costs a whole lot more that potentially the time and and the potential
28:27
money that you might be doing upstream in the long run, I'm thinking to say your ROI is in
28:32
prevention versus, the unwell in believe.
28:35
And the typical part for organizations, I appreciate this having done cost evaluations.
28:39
You it's it's, you know, virtually impossible to see what your cost is in prevention work
28:44
because you don't know what happened.
28:46
One of the the best things that happened in the EAP field, when we saw utilization rates go
28:50
for, like, 4 or 5% in companies to 6, 8, and 10 to go, oh my goodness.
28:53
We got more problems.
28:55
My response was, no.
28:56
You've always had those problems.
28:58
People are just now dealing with them.
29:00
As opposed to in the manifest and get worse.
29:02
So, yeah, if you have EAP utilization, it's 2 or 3%.
29:05
You're doing a real bad job because people are hiding the problems, not coming forward.
29:08
So again, I work in the nonprofit sector.
29:12
Right?
29:12
So it's easy for me to say, oh, you know, it's not money, but it is.
29:16
And the fact that we know in the addiction treatment field.
29:19
For every dollar we put in a treatment, we save $6, and that's in treatment.
29:23
So imagine what happens if we didn't have to treat people and stop the problem earlier, how
29:27
much money we'd be saving for organizations and for our health care system.
29:31
Absolutely.
29:32
It's it's it's definitely worth it.
29:34
And I think it's you know, it goes back to the basics of connection, right, like, you know,
29:38
you know, if you look at the misuse of substances or those or whatever it is, whether
29:42
it's substance, anger, it's arbitrations, or it's, you know, conflict in the workplace.
29:48
A lot of it's because people aren't feeling, like you said, validated, heard to your
29:52
partner's point.
29:53
If you check-in with people, it's easier to have that tough conversation because there's
29:57
been an issue with on a report versus if I haven't talked to you and I have to now come
30:01
down and talk to you about something that because a customer is complaining, it makes it
30:05
a little bit more difficult because then I'm not wanting to have that conversation for you
30:08
with you versus if I have the relationship, then I'm like, oh, yeah.
30:11
You know, I've not been focused.
30:13
I have had X Y Z going on, and then I'm a little bit more open to discuss really what
30:18
what what I could do to be more present at work.
30:22
Absolutely.
30:22
You're right on Roxanne.
30:23
That summarizes it very, very nicely.
30:25
So, Doctor Sarnek, I know you and I could probably talk for a very long time.
30:31
So for anybody that's wanting, to connect with you or, you know, learn a little bit more about
30:37
some of the things that we've been discussing.
30:39
Where can they reach you if they wanted to learn more, or do you have a site or some
30:43
places that they could read a bit more of on some of the books that you've written.
30:47
Yeah.
30:48
So, Rick Cernick, I'm at King's University College in London, Ontario.
30:52
My email is there, but I'll give it very slowly.
30:54
It's rcsierni atuw0.ca.
31:02
My last name is Cernick, c s I e r n I k, King's University College School of Social
31:06
Work.
31:07
And as you've if you've been watching me, I'd love to talk.
31:09
I'd love to give advice.
31:10
So if you've got a question, Roxanne, by all means, I'd be happy to help any of your clients
31:15
or anyone watching the podcast and give them my 2¢ worth.
31:18
Okay.
31:18
Well, thank you so much.
31:19
So what did I take away?
31:22
I took away that, you know what?
31:24
We need to recognize that the stress was related to our lives are sticky, like, Doctor
31:29
Sernik said.
31:30
And the secondary, presentation of addictions is existing in our organizations.
31:36
So look for it and recognize addictions is one way that it's showing, but it's showing in
31:40
other ways and go back to some of the basics of taking the time to spend your monies up front
31:47
because my my tagline, Doctor Sernick is re if if you spend your time with return on
31:54
relationships, it's actually protects your ROI in, return on investments.
31:59
So take the time.
32:01
Spend the time on prevention because the earlier you get it, upstream, you're gonna
32:06
minimize the amount of the people that will eventually need help anyway.
32:10
And hopefully you make your place a a place you become an employer of choice, and people wanna
32:15
come.
32:16
They wanna stay, and they wanna be connected.
32:18
So thanks again, and, we'll chat with you soon.
32:21
Thanks a lot, Roxanne.
32:22
K.
32:22
Thank you.
32:23
Thanks for tuning in to authentic living with Roxanne, creating the space for positive,
32:29
healthy chains.
32:30
Roxanne is a keynote speaker, psychotherapist, and coach to work with Roxanne, visit Roxanne
32:37
Derhodge dotcom/blueprint.
32:40
We'll see you next time on authentic living with Roxanne.