Latest / hol+ with Dr. Taz MD | The Future of Medicine is Holistic / Dr. Judith Joseph: High-Functioning Depression, Anhedonia, and the Cost of Being the Strong One
Transcript
- [00:00:00] Dr. Judith Joseph: It is something that I found people are struggling with. The strong ones who don't acknowledge [00:00:05] their emotions, who wear that mask of productivity. No one knows they're struggling. And we all have [00:00:10] emotional traumas. We may not have a trauma that the DSM-5 designates as a [00:00:15] trauma, but we all have emotional experiences, painful psychological experiences that shape us and [00:00:20] changes the way that we view ourselves in the world, and the way that we interact in the world. [00:00:23] Dr. Judith Joseph: Everyone has mental health. We may not [00:00:25] all have a mental health condition, but we all have mental health the way that we have physical health, and we have to nurture it, we [00:00:30] have to take care of it so that we don't develop a mental health condition. [00:00:32] Dr. Taz: Anxiety and depression and [00:00:35] so many other mental health disorders are on the rise. [00:00:38] Dr. Taz: We know that we have a crisis when it [00:00:40] comes to mental health in this country, and honestly, across the globe. I felt like it was really [00:00:45] important to dive more deeply into the conversations around mental health, and that's why my [00:00:50] next guest is going to help us with this issue. Let me introduce you to Dr. [00:00:54] Dr. Taz: Judith [00:00:55] Joseph. She's the author of the highly anticipated book on high-functioning depression. Dr. [00:01:00] Judith is a board-certified psychiatrist and chair of the Women in Medicine initiative for Columbia [00:01:05] University College of Physicians and Surgeons. She's a clinical assistant professor of child and [00:01:10] adolescent psychiatry at NYU Langone Medical Center. [00:01:13] Dr. Taz: She has conducted several clinical [00:01:15] research studies in pediatric, adult, geriatric, and women's mental health [00:01:20] as the principal investigator in her own research lab. She recently received a [00:01:25] 2023 Congressional Proclamation from the US House of Representatives for her social media [00:01:30] advocacy and research in mental health. [00:01:32] Dr. Taz: In May of 2024, she lectured at the White [00:01:35] House for the Executive Office of the President of the United States and taught members of the administration a [00:01:40] workshop on how to improve their mental health. She's been an expert on various media [00:01:45] platforms, made a number of national television appearances, and received her [00:01:50] education from Duke University, Columbia University, and then Columbia Business School. [00:01:54] Dr. Taz: Please join [00:01:55] me in welcoming Dr. Judith Joseph to the show. Welcome, Dr. Judith. I'm so glad to [00:02:00] have you on the show. [00:02:01] Dr. Judith Joseph: Thank you for having me. I'm excited to be here. [00:02:03] Dr. Taz: This is a really important [00:02:05] topic at a really critical time. I mean, I think I sort of repeat what everybody [00:02:10] already knows when I say that we have a mental health crisis. [00:02:12] Dr. Taz: It's affecting every age group, [00:02:15] from our children, to our teens, to our seniors, and everyone in between, and I really [00:02:20] wanted you on the show to help us dive into this topic because I think that we hear a lot [00:02:25] of chatter, but we don't really understand what's going on. So I would love, [00:02:30] uh, to learn more about the work you're doing and how you entered this field of [00:02:35] mental health, anxiety and depression, and, you know, what your perspective [00:02:40] is on what everyone's going through. [00:02:42] Dr. Judith Joseph: Well, I mean, I entered this field [00:02:45] because honestly, there was a need for this, and this field of [00:02:50] psychiatry rescued me. [00:02:50] Dr. Taz: Mm. [00:02:51] Dr. Judith Joseph: I used to be an anesthesiology resident, and I [00:02:55] remember being in the OR, the operating room, and thinking like, "Is [00:03:00] this really what I'm supposed to do with my life?" And feeling so [00:03:05] empty- Mm [00:03:05] Dr. Judith Joseph: and experiencing anhedonia, which is something that a lot of people in [00:03:10] medical, uh, cultures know about- Right ... but a lot of people in regular culture have [00:03:15] never heard of it. They're like, "Anhe-what?" Um, but anhedonia is this feeling [00:03:20] of meh, bleh, lack of interest- Not happy, [00:03:23] Dr. Taz: not excited ... [00:03:23] Dr. Judith Joseph: not, not excited. Yeah. [00:03:24] Dr. Judith Joseph: Just [00:03:25] really blunted, and I was having that. And the funny thing is, is that I [00:03:30] knew what it was. I'd heard of it, studied it, and it snuck up on me. I didn't even [00:03:35] realize I was experiencing it. [00:03:36] Dr. Taz: Mm. [00:03:37] Dr. Judith Joseph: And when I realized that I felt so empty, [00:03:40] I was like, "I have to make a change." [00:03:42] Dr. Taz: And this [00:03:42] Dr. Judith Joseph: is [00:03:42] Dr. Taz: while you're in residency or you're already [00:03:45] out- Residency [00:03:45] Dr. Taz: working and stuff like that? [00:03:46] Dr. Judith Joseph: I was in residency. In residency, yeah. So yeah, I was a resident, which is [00:03:50] basically a doctor in training- Right ... in anesthesiology. And it is a very [00:03:55] important field. I have a lot of friends in it, but, you know, if it's not the right fit for you, you can [00:04:00] feel very empty doing something like that. [00:04:02] Dr. Taz: You know, before we move into [00:04:05] mental health, you've brought something up that's really important. I have been in medicine for [00:04:10] probably over 25 years. I'm dating myself, but one of the things that I've observed [00:04:15] is that anhedonia amongst our colleagues. Mm-hmm. And that can sometimes turn [00:04:20] into despair- Mm ... and it can actually turn into addictive behaviors, destructive behaviors [00:04:25] as time goes on. [00:04:26] Dr. Taz: And I think the bravery to be mid-path [00:04:30] in a profession where you follow a road, you get things done, you keep going, but the [00:04:35] bravery to be able to stop for a second and switch is something I want you to talk about [00:04:40] for just a second. Because this show is not only, you know, for, [00:04:45] for patients, but it's really for our physician community, too, right? [00:04:49] Dr. Taz: Because as [00:04:50] we're trying to change medicine, we wanna change it for the doctor, too. Mm-hmm. Because the doctor is just as burnt [00:04:55] out, just as frustrated, just as empty as many of the patients that they're [00:05:00] serving. So talk to us a little bit about what made you feel that way as you were going through your training, [00:05:05] and what really gave [00:05:06] Dr. Judith Joseph: you the courage to make a switch? [00:05:09] Dr. Judith Joseph: You know, the [00:05:10] healers are not healed. [00:05:11] Dr. Taz: Hmm. [00:05:12] Dr. Judith Joseph: They're just not healed. Love that. [00:05:13] Dr. Taz: Yeah. [00:05:14] Dr. Judith Joseph: But the culture of [00:05:15] medicine, and this is not just doctors, it's healthcare providers, healthcare professionals, the culture is [00:05:20] such that if you slow down, if you admit that things aren't okay, you're [00:05:25] shamed. Yeah. You know? [00:05:26] Dr. Judith Joseph: You're letting the team down. It's almost like the military. It's like the military. [00:05:30] [00:05:30] Dr. Taz: Right? I just told my daughter that the other day. I'm like, "Going into medi-" She's 16. She was like, "You know, I [00:05:35] like medicine, but I don't know about the journey." I'm like, "Going to medicine is like the military. They break you down, [00:05:40] and if you care about people enough, you can maybe make it through, but it's a really rough [00:05:45] journey." [00:05:45] Dr. Taz: You know? It [00:05:45] Dr. Judith Joseph: is. And if you say the wrong thing, if you appear to be [00:05:50] complaining, then you're seen as, "Well, you're not a part of us. You're letting the [00:05:55] team down. Like, I went through it. Shouldn't you go through it?" [00:05:57] Dr. Taz: Right. [00:05:58] Dr. Judith Joseph: So there is this kind of element of [00:06:00] hazing involved. And also, if you do ask for help, if you're brave enough to [00:06:05] ask for help, sometimes you're told that you have to report your mental [00:06:10] health condition- [00:06:10] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm [00:06:11] Dr. Judith Joseph: to a board. So then imagine being a medical student [00:06:15] accruing all this debt- Basically delaying happiness and- Yep ... pushing off youth, [00:06:20] and then being told that when you do break down, you may not be able to work. Right. I mean, that's a person's- [00:06:25] It's on your record. It's on your record. Yeah. It's your worst nightmare because you now, you [00:06:30] know, are from a position of relative scarcity. [00:06:32] Dr. Taz: Yeah. [00:06:33] Dr. Judith Joseph: You know, you have all this loan, all these [00:06:35] debts. So you're kind of pushed between a rock and a hard place. You can't [00:06:40] ask for help even though you know you need it, and a lot of people are struggling. So [00:06:45] I was one of the brave folks You were. I'm so proud of you ... who at the time I was [00:06:50] just like, "I cannot do this anymore." [00:06:51] Dr. Judith Joseph: And, um, I left that field, and [00:06:55] psychiatry was the residency that I entered. And I entered psychiatry because a [00:07:00] girlfriend of mine was like, "This is great, Judith. You would love this. You did this rotation [00:07:05] when... as a medical student in South Africa, and you were doing these trauma-focused groups with these orphans, and you [00:07:10] came back glowing. [00:07:10] Dr. Judith Joseph: Like, this is your calling." [00:07:12] Dr. Taz: Mm. [00:07:12] Dr. Judith Joseph: But I'm from a family, a Caribbean [00:07:15] traditional family- Yep ... where the real doctor has the scrubs, is in the operating room, you [00:07:20] know, has the whole getup. So when I told my family, I was like, "I think I'm gonna become a psychiatrist," they were like, "What?" [00:07:25] What? They're like... And my parents are Caribbean, so they were like, "You're gonna go and work with crazy people? [00:07:29] Dr. Judith Joseph: [00:07:30] What's wrong with you?" And I was just like- I love that. ... "They're not crazy." [00:07:35] Um, but entering a Columbia residency, we all had the opportunity [00:07:40] to start our own therapy. [00:07:41] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm. [00:07:42] Dr. Judith Joseph: So I had never been in therapy, and when it was [00:07:45] offered to me, I was just like, "Well, I don't need that." You know? Even I had stigma, [00:07:50] right? [00:07:50] Dr. Judith Joseph: I was like, "That's for, like, really severely mentally ill people." Right. [00:07:53] Dr. Taz: Right. [00:07:54] Dr. Judith Joseph: But boy was I [00:07:55] wrong. [00:07:55] Dr. Taz: Mm. [00:07:55] Dr. Judith Joseph: Starting therapy as a resident- Changed my life [00:07:59] Dr. Taz: [00:08:00] Wow [00:08:00] Dr. Judith Joseph: I mean, I w- In what ways? I thought I didn't have trauma. I was like, "That's for other people." [00:08:05] I unpacked traumas that I wasn't even aware of, right? Uh, it changed my [00:08:10] life. [00:08:10] Dr. Judith Joseph: It changed the way that I think about people. It changes the way that I interact with others. [00:08:15] You know, I became aware of my attachment style. Not everyone has a mental health diagnosis. [00:08:20] Not everyone has- Right ... a DSM-5 condition. Yeah. But we all have attachment styles. [00:08:23] Dr. Taz: Yeah. [00:08:23] Dr. Judith Joseph: You know, we all have [00:08:25] emotional traumas. [00:08:26] Dr. Judith Joseph: We may not have a trauma that the DSM-5 [00:08:30] designates as a trauma, but we all have emotional experiences, painful psychological experiences that [00:08:35] shape us, and changes the way that we view ourselves in the world, and the way that we interact in the world. [00:08:39] Dr. Taz: And our [00:08:40] decision-making, right? Absolutely. DSM-5, by the way, guys, is the way that we diagnose different mental health [00:08:45] conditions, different categories, uh, just to clarify that for just a second. [00:08:49] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm, the Bible [00:08:49] Dr. Judith Joseph: [00:08:50] of psychiatry. [00:08:50] Dr. Taz: The Bible of... That's a great way to... And it gets updated periodically. It does, yes. Right? So, you know, [00:08:55] so you're in therapy. Mm-hmm. You're unpacking your own traumas- Mm-hmm ... which you were unaware [00:09:00] of. What is that p- is that talking? Is that... Just for somebody watching, is therapy [00:09:05] always talking? [00:09:05] Dr. Taz: Is it always talking and going through? How did, how do you get to that point of [00:09:10] walking in not thinking you need it, and then going down a road of like, "Wow, [00:09:15] that's what I'm doing and that's the way I'm behaving"? [00:09:17] Dr. Judith Joseph: Well, there are different types of therapies, just like there are different [00:09:20] types of treatments in other con- uh, uh, medical fields, right? [00:09:24] Dr. Judith Joseph: [00:09:25] But the type of therapy that residents, at least in our residency, what we were offered was a psychoanalytic [00:09:30] psychotherapy, which is a very, uh, deep, introspective [00:09:35] type of therapy where you're working closely with the therapist, and you're kind of playing out themes [00:09:40] in life- [00:09:40] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm ... [00:09:40] Dr. Judith Joseph: like attachment themes and so forth. [00:09:42] Dr. Judith Joseph: But there are different types of therapy. Uh, [00:09:45] you know, there's dialectical behavioral therapy that's focused on emotional regulation, uh, [00:09:50] distress tolerance, interpersonal, interpersonal skills. There's cognitive behavioral therapy- Yeah ... which is a behavioral [00:09:55] therapy that's very helpful with, uh, anxiety, depression, sleep. [00:09:59] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm. [00:09:59] Dr. Judith Joseph: [00:10:00] Um, you know, there's more like, um, like parent-child type [00:10:05] of therapy. So you have many different types, somatic therapies. But the type that I [00:10:10] was in focused on my, you know, early experiences, my attachment. Mm-hmm. [00:10:15] And my therapist ... And I talked about, I talk about this in my book, High Functioning. My therapist [00:10:20] said, "I think you're masochistic." [00:10:22] Dr. Judith Joseph: Huh. And I was like, "But wait a second, that was [00:10:25] taken out of the DSM-IV. It was in the DSM-III, the bible of psychiatry, but they removed it [00:10:30] from the four, so how could I be something that's not in there?" And a little secret, us therapists, we use w- [00:10:35] terms sometimes between ourselves, but, you know, technically masochism was removed [00:10:40] because it's something that people thought was victim shaming. [00:10:43] Dr. Judith Joseph: Right. So a [00:10:45] masochistic individual will put others first, will sometimes bend over backwards even though [00:10:50] they themselves are not, you know, happy. It's actually hurting- Ooh ... themselves. Sound like medicine, [00:10:55] right? Yeah. And medicine- Self-abuse. Right? Yes. We're told [00:10:58] Dr. Taz: to put the p- the patient [00:10:59] Dr. Judith Joseph: [00:11:00] first. Right, right. We, we suffer. [00:11:02] Dr. Judith Joseph: You know, doctors work long hours. [00:11:05] In, in surgeries you're holding your urine- Oh, yeah ... for hours. Yep. You know, you're not [00:11:10] eating. You're putting the patient first, but this is noble. There are a lot of masochistic [00:11:15] people in medicine, but we're not allowed to say that, right? Mm. So [00:11:18] Dr. Taz: my therapist- Why does masochism have such a negative [00:11:20] connotation then? [00:11:20] Dr. Taz: I think instantly, like, selfish and all these other words come to [00:11:25] mind when I hear that term. [00:11:26] Dr. Judith Joseph: Well, because traditionally, you know, medicine has a lot of things, [00:11:30] psychiatry has problems from the past. Right, right. Right? So, um, traditionally [00:11:35] masochistic patients were seen as women who were in abusive relationships- Mm [00:11:39] Dr. Judith Joseph: who kind [00:11:40] of provoked people to, you know, hit them, right? So there was a connotation with [00:11:45] that. Oh. So like the abusive side. Wow. But there are elements of masochism that still apply, [00:11:50] right? You don't have to use those type of- Right ... inciting violence- Right ... uh, [00:11:55] traits. But what we call masochism today, the acceptable form, is people pleasing. [00:11:59] Dr. Judith Joseph: Hmm. You know, [00:12:00] how many memes have you seen about people pleasing? A [00:12:01] Dr. Taz: million. People pleasers are us, you [00:12:05] know? Right. Call now. There's that one that I see all the time, [00:12:07] Dr. Judith Joseph: but yeah. I mean, and we laugh about it, but women [00:12:10] are still the primary people pleasers. Yes. You know, we, we put our children [00:12:15] first. We have to put on the facade of we're a career mom. [00:12:19] Dr. Judith Joseph: You know, [00:12:20] we take care of the elderly parents. We're the ones who are dependable. How many business [00:12:25] owners do I know who've been like, "I like to hire women because they show up." [00:12:28] Dr. Taz: Yeah. [00:12:28] Dr. Judith Joseph: But it's really code for they're people [00:12:30] pleasers. [00:12:30] Dr. Taz: Mm. [00:12:30] Dr. Judith Joseph: You know? They go above and beyond, and they don't [00:12:35] complain. But that has repercussions. [00:12:37] Dr. Judith Joseph: Women have twice the risk [00:12:40] of depression, twice the risk of anxiety, make up [00:12:45] 80% of those with autoimmune conditions. Think about that. Mm-hmm. It's not all hormones. There's a [00:12:50] cultural and societal element to it. We are literally driving down our [00:12:55] health and our mental health because of people pleasing. [00:12:57] Dr. Taz: Wow. [00:12:58] Dr. Taz: And how... So you discover this [00:13:00] about yourself. [00:13:00] Dr. Judith Joseph: Mm-hmm. [00:13:02] Dr. Taz: What sort of enabled you personally to [00:13:05] be able to then make a change? Was it sort of like, "Wow, this is who I am"? [00:13:10] And what's my next step? Because I'm just thinking about somebody watching or listening [00:13:15] who might be in the same boat. You know? They're like, "I do spend the majority of my time [00:13:20] making sure everybody else is okay," which again, a lot of women are doing over and [00:13:25] over again. [00:13:25] Dr. Taz: You know, how do they, through... Maybe it's through therapy, but how do they get to that next [00:13:30] step? [00:13:30] Dr. Judith Joseph: You know, in my own work with my therapist, I wish I could say that [00:13:35] therapy healed me, but the reality is that when you have a pervasive pattern in your personality [00:13:40] style, you, the work takes time. Yeah. You know? [00:13:42] Dr. Judith Joseph: Like- [00:13:43] Dr. Taz: It's not like snap my [00:13:44] Dr. Judith Joseph: fingers- No ... and it's [00:13:44] Dr. Taz: okay. [00:13:45] [00:13:45] Dr. Judith Joseph: It's not. Yeah. And you're gonna go through pattern, uh, like, places in life, [00:13:50] and times in life, and frames in life where you're actually doing good work, right? You're [00:13:55] constantly self-reflecting. You're saying, "I'm not... I'm gonna stop these habits. I'm gonna, you know, really make a change."[00:14:00] [00:14:00] Dr. Judith Joseph: But then you'll fall back into old patterns, and that's okay. [00:14:05] Personally speaking for myself, I find myself in these patterns, and in my book, I talk about [00:14:10] the things that I use- [00:14:11] Dr. Taz: Yeah ... [00:14:11] Dr. Judith Joseph: the tools that I use to keep in check. So, um, you know, I [00:14:15] talk about the five Vs to thriving. Number one is validation. [00:14:18] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm. [00:14:19] Dr. Judith Joseph: I [00:14:20] have to constantly self-validate and make sure that I'm acknowledging my [00:14:25] feelings because people-pleasers and, and people who have masochistic traits, [00:14:30] they will many times push down how they feel. They won't e- take the time to acknowledge how they feel [00:14:35] because they're thinking about everyone else. And it sounds very simple, [00:14:40] but self-acknowledgement and validating your feelings, it really is [00:14:45] difficult when you're not accustomed to doing so. [00:14:47] Dr. Taz: And this is just a conversation with yourself, right? Mm-hmm. Now, we've seen the [00:14:50] other memes too. Mm-hmm. Like c- can you, can we talk about my feelings right now? You're not validating my feelings. We've [00:14:55] seen that too. But you're starting just with you, the individual, and [00:15:00] recognizing and acknowledging how you feel. [00:15:02] Dr. Judith Joseph: Absolutely, and in, in my book, I talk about all the different [00:15:05] ways that people get validation, so it could be external. You can get it through your [00:15:10] therapist. I talk about how I use assessments in my, uh, clinical [00:15:15] practice, how sometimes showing someone a score, a trauma score, is validating in [00:15:20] itself. Mm. [00:15:20] Dr. Judith Joseph: Because many times in mental health, it's not like we can take a blood test and say, [00:15:25] "Oh, look, this is the level of your trauma." Right. We don't have that yet. Right. [00:15:27] Dr. Taz: Right. [00:15:28] Dr. Judith Joseph: But we do have clinical [00:15:30] assessments, like the CAPS-5- Mm ... which is the gold standard for trauma, and if I show someone a [00:15:35] CAPS-5 that's really high, it's like, wow. [00:15:37] Dr. Judith Joseph: Like, I was not acknowledging my [00:15:40] trauma all this time. Had I known I was walking around with a CAPS-5 that high, I would've been kinder to [00:15:45] myself. So there are many different ways to validate. To assess [00:15:47] Dr. Taz: that. [00:15:48] Dr. Judith Joseph: Correct. [00:15:48] Dr. Taz: So let's talk about the [00:15:50] CAPS-5 for just- Mm ... is, [00:15:50] Dr. Judith Joseph: are there others too in addition to the [00:15:52] Dr. Taz: CAPS-5? [00:15:52] Dr. Taz: I think there's another one that I'm blanking [00:15:55] on the name of that I've seen too. [00:15:55] Dr. Judith Joseph: Well, in, in my clinical practice, um, the ones that I typically use are the [00:16:00] gold standard. So for depression, I use the Madras, the HAM-D. But for my own, uh- [00:16:05] Personal ... research- Yeah ... I've developed my own trauma inventories because many of the [00:16:10] trauma inventories focus on childhood traumas- Right [00:16:12] Dr. Judith Joseph: which are really important, like the ACEs- Right, the [00:16:15] ACE ... which you're probably familiar with. That's what I was [00:16:15] Dr. Taz: thinking of, yes, [00:16:16] Dr. Judith Joseph: the ACE, yeah. Um, yeah. Yeah. And there's two versions of the ACE that [00:16:20] is familiar. So there's, like, the one that was the original that the CDC Kaiser Permanente had. Yep. [00:16:25] And then there's the Philadelphia modified one that's based on a more, like, um, I [00:16:30] think comprehensive experience, so it includes more urban environments. [00:16:34] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm. [00:16:35] [00:16:35] Dr. Judith Joseph: But they're, they mostly focus on childhood events. And the reason they focus [00:16:40] on the childhood trauma is because your brain is thought to fully develop when you're 25. Mm-hmm. But we [00:16:45] know that just because it's mostly developed doesn't mean that it is static. Right. So [00:16:50] it changes. There's neuroplasticity. [00:16:52] Dr. Judith Joseph: So in my trauma inventory, I included a lot of [00:16:55] adult experiences, such as divorce. Yes. That's traumatizing. [00:16:58] Dr. Taz: Yes. [00:16:59] Dr. Judith Joseph: Uh, [00:17:00] bankruptcy. [00:17:00] Dr. Taz: Bankruptcy. [00:17:01] Dr. Judith Joseph: Traumatizing. Business [00:17:01] Dr. Taz: loss. [00:17:02] Dr. Judith Joseph: I mean- Yeah ... you know, seeing [00:17:05] a loved one in the ICU, traumatizing. But in the classic sense [00:17:10] of, uh, the DSM, the Bible of psychiatry, a, a trauma is [00:17:15] something that's life-threatening or an assault or combat. [00:17:17] Dr. Judith Joseph: So something like being, you know, in the [00:17:20] hospital for a prolonged COVID-19 wouldn't- [00:17:22] Dr. Taz: Right ... [00:17:22] Dr. Judith Joseph: count. Right. But try, you know... Like, when I have a [00:17:25] patient in front of me telling me that that's tra- traumatizing, and I have to tell them that doesn't meet criteria for the study- [00:17:29] Dr. Taz: [00:17:30] Right ... [00:17:30] Dr. Judith Joseph: it's so invalidating. That's- So I go- Yeah [00:17:32] Dr. Judith Joseph: off the record and I'm like, "For this study, it's not [00:17:35] trauma, but between you and me, it's trauma." It's trauma. "You may not meet criteria for this one, but I believe you." And it, [00:17:40] that for someone is so powerful. You know, that validation is so [00:17:45] powerful. There's something called affect labeling- [00:17:48] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm ... [00:17:49] Dr. Judith Joseph: in psychiatry.[00:17:50] [00:17:50] Dr. Judith Joseph: If you name a feeling, that decreases the [00:17:55] anxiety tremendously. It is therapeutic to name a feeling. I mean, that gives me [00:18:00] goosebumps every time. Yeah. Because many people walk around, they don't know how they feel. They don't know why things aren't [00:18:05] going well for em- for them. And if you can name it, it's not only validating, but it, it is [00:18:10] therapeutic because it decreases the stress of the unknown, and human beings cannot handle [00:18:15] uncertainty. [00:18:15] Dr. Judith Joseph: It is terrifying. You know, that's why we're like, "Take the Band-Aid off." Right. "Let's just pull it off." We just would [00:18:20] rather know. So naming the feeling is very powerful. [00:18:23] Dr. Taz: So self-valid- and we could spend an hour on [00:18:25] self-validation, honestly. But I just think it's so important because so many people walk around with, [00:18:30] including us- Mm-hmm [00:18:30] Dr. Taz: walk around with blinders on, and it took a lot of stumbling and [00:18:35] bumbling around to figure out that that's what was happening, right? Yes. Can somebody on their own... We, by [00:18:40] the way, have mentioned the ACE. We've mentioned the CAPT five. You have your own trauma inventory. I know you have a book [00:18:45] coming out- Yes [00:18:45] Dr. Taz: right, in April. Does it have the trauma inventory in it? It does, yeah. Because I think that, [00:18:50] would you recommend all of us to be doing assessments like this on [00:18:55] ourselves in some fashion? Maybe we do it every six months or so, or once a year, just to [00:19:00] see where we are. [00:19:01] Dr. Judith Joseph: You know, I went into this field because [00:19:05] there's a shortage of psychiatrists. [00:19:06] Dr. Judith Joseph: Mm-hmm. There's a shortage of therapists. In some parts of the United States, [00:19:10] there's one of me for 30,000 people. Wow. I can barely handle- In a mental health crisis ... 30 people. [00:19:15] [00:19:15] Dr. Taz: It is so, [00:19:16] Dr. Judith Joseph: ugh. In the, in the midst of a mental health crisis. Yeah. Imagine that. [00:19:19] Dr. Taz: Yeah. [00:19:20] [00:19:20] Dr. Judith Joseph: And as a researcher, I have my own lab- I find, again, [00:19:25] these quantitative mathematical ways of showing someone this is what you're [00:19:30] experiencing- [00:19:30] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm [00:19:30] Dr. Judith Joseph: this is the number of your trauma, and after the treatment, let's see if that number goes down, right? [00:19:35] Or after the treatment, let's see if that number goes up. Maybe we're worsening things. [00:19:38] Dr. Taz: Right. [00:19:39] Dr. Judith Joseph: I find it so [00:19:40] powerful- It is ... to have a number. And because there's a shortage, no, I'm not encouraging [00:19:45] self-di- diagnoses, but I am encouraging people to learn about their symptoms and to have some type [00:19:50] of metric for understanding how severe they are. [00:19:53] Dr. Judith Joseph: So that's why I created these scales, to [00:19:55] democratize mental health, because there are just not enough mental health providers out there. [00:19:59] Dr. Taz: To meet the demand. [00:19:59] Dr. Judith Joseph: [00:20:00] To meet that demand. [00:20:00] Dr. Taz: Wow. All right. Let's move from self-validation. You said there were five Vs. Mm-hmm. So [00:20:05] tell me about some of the other ones. [00:20:06] Dr. Judith Joseph: So the second V is venting. [00:20:08] Dr. Judith Joseph: Okay, now that you know [00:20:10] how you're feeling, how do we express it? And I love venting because I, I studied, uh, [00:20:15] chemistry a- and, and physics, and so venting, if you think about a balloon that's really [00:20:20] tense with air, but once you start letting that air out, and we do this in our lab, [00:20:25] um, it, the tension goes down. [00:20:26] Dr. Judith Joseph: So we gotta get it out somehow. [00:20:28] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm. [00:20:28] Dr. Judith Joseph: But not everyone is [00:20:30] verbal, you know? Not everyone likes to talk about things, so I wanted to provide people with skills [00:20:35] and tools that felt comfortable and authentic for them. So I, I talk about some of my [00:20:40] artists that I work with in my practice, their venting is through singing. [00:20:43] Dr. Judith Joseph: Yes. So I'll [00:20:45] ask them to sing a song or to draw a paint, uh, paint something- Right ... or draw, [00:20:50] um, a sketch to express how they feel. But for others, I mean, I, I [00:20:55] love to talk. So For me, it's talking with my therapist, like that feels [00:21:00] good, or talking with a loved one. My dad's a pastor. For him- Oh, wow ... it's prayer. [00:21:03] Dr. Judith Joseph: He prays every- Yep ... day. [00:21:05] Yep. Sometimes three times a day. But he feels better after he prays because he's talking to a higher [00:21:10] power that he believes loves and cares about him. So there are different ways to express [00:21:15] how you feel. Um, one of the ways that I started using over the past two and a half years was social [00:21:20] media. [00:21:20] Dr. Judith Joseph: I was a newbie to social media- Right ... but I started venting over it, and then I grew to almost a million [00:21:25] followers. [00:21:25] Dr. Taz: Wow. I'm like, "Wow, venting is [00:21:27] Dr. Judith Joseph: powerful." That's amazing. It really is powerful. [00:21:28] Dr. Taz: Yeah. So [00:21:30] validation, venting, these are tools that you yourself used personally- [00:21:33] Dr. Judith Joseph: I use them personally ... in [00:21:34] Dr. Taz: your [00:21:35] journey- [00:21:35] Dr. Judith Joseph: Mm-hmm [00:21:35] Dr. Taz: to kinda go into psychiatry. What's that journey like been in psychiatry? [00:21:40] [00:21:40] Dr. Judith Joseph: So, you know, it, like many fields of medicine, psychiatry is very [00:21:45] conservative. Yeah. But I had to spice it up a bit. [00:21:48] Dr. Taz: Love it. [00:21:49] Dr. Judith Joseph: There are the many [00:21:50] Trinidadian psychiatrists- We're all spicing up medicine [00:21:52] Dr. Taz: over [00:21:52] Dr. Judith Joseph: here ... that put the curry in there. [00:21:53] Dr. Judith Joseph: Yeah, I love it. [00:21:55] And that's why my lab, the motto of my lab is the science of your happiness. [00:22:00] There is a field called the science of happiness. But to be, to be honest, it [00:22:05] is primarily populated by people who don't look like me. [00:22:08] Dr. Taz: Right. [00:22:09] Dr. Judith Joseph: So I [00:22:10] wanted to write a book where people could see themselves. I've traveled to over 30 countries learning about [00:22:15] mental health, and the science of your happiness includes [00:22:20] your personal experiences, your culture- [00:22:22] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm [00:22:22] Dr. Judith Joseph: your beliefs. And so [00:22:25] the third V is values. We all have different values When we [00:22:30] come to a country, we think, "Okay, money is the thing. We gotta get that house, we gotta get the American dream." [00:22:35] But at the end of the day, when we're on our death beds, we're not gonna be like, "I wish I had... I wish I could've [00:22:40] gotten a Porsche," right? [00:22:40] Dr. Judith Joseph: Mm. You're thinking, "I wish I had done things that I really, you know, [00:22:45] gave me a sense of meaning. I wish I had spent more time with the people that I loved," right? "I [00:22:50] wish I was doing things that gave me purpose." So your values are really [00:22:55] those things, and I, and I say it's the things that are priceless, not the things with a price [00:23:00] tag. [00:23:00] Dr. Taz: Mm. [00:23:01] Dr. Judith Joseph: So if you can feed into those values even a little bit a day, right? For me, it's [00:23:05] kindness. So if I can buy my, my team lunch, great. I feel good. And it's a [00:23:10] little selfish, right? Right. Right, [00:23:11] Dr. Taz: right. [00:23:11] Dr. Judith Joseph: Or if I can hold a door for someone, uh, you know, feeling [00:23:15] connected to others, that's my value. But for someone else, it could be nature. [00:23:17] Dr. Judith Joseph: Yeah. So, you know, if you can [00:23:20] take a walk outside, if you could, instead of taking the train, walk through Central Park, if it's safe, you know, [00:23:25] things like that. So really trying to figure out and, you know, real- and give a [00:23:30] platform to things that give you meaning and purpose in life. [00:23:32] Dr. Taz: So you... So this is a really... [00:23:34] Dr. Taz: This is [00:23:35] important- Mm-hmm ... and it comes home for me a little bit. You know, you, you're [00:23:40] tying together values and culture. Mm-hmm. Values, and obviously both of us have not had the [00:23:45] traditional... You can look at us and know we've not had- ... the traditional experience, you know, here in [00:23:50] this country. Yes. And when I even think about, you know, my childhood home- Mm [00:23:53] Dr. Taz: there was a lot of dysfunction, [00:23:55] which was cultural. Mm-hmm. You know, a lot of cultural dysfunction. Mm-hmm. You know, a lot of trauma [00:24:00] for all three of us as, as sisters in terms of what we experienced and dealt with. You know, [00:24:05] how... When we're dealing with mental health, and it looks different in [00:24:10] different packages and different people, and I'm, like, fascinated by you traveling around the world, so we're gonna have to talk about that too- [00:24:14] Dr. Taz: in a [00:24:15] minute. You know, how do we help people understand that they [00:24:20] can't look at their anxiety and at their depression in a singular [00:24:25] fashion? Mm-hmm. How do they embrace their culture? How do they embrace sort of the, the [00:24:30] background that they were raised in, you know, to then put a context to their anxiety, [00:24:35] depression, whatever their me- Mm-hmm [00:24:35] Dr. Taz: the mental health story is? [00:24:37] Dr. Judith Joseph: And that's why I use the science of your [00:24:40] happiness. [00:24:40] Dr. Taz: Your happiness. [00:24:41] Dr. Judith Joseph: Your happiness. When I go on talks, when I travel, [00:24:45] um, I always say, "Mental health is not someone else's, it's yours." Mm. [00:24:50] And that is very powerful. Recently I gave a talk to people who are from the [00:24:55] Caribbean diaspora. [00:24:55] Dr. Judith Joseph: Yeah. And I said, "You know, when you're wining," 'cause we move side to side and our hips- I know. ... [00:25:00] and when you're wining, you know what that is? It's bilateral stimulation. It is your left and [00:25:05] right ba- brain communicating- Talking to each other, and you're feeling better. You're [00:25:10] feeling less stress. And bilateral stimulation is something you'll see taught [00:25:15] at Harvard. [00:25:15] Dr. Judith Joseph: Mm-hmm. Right? The tapping- [00:25:16] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm. Yeah, [00:25:17] Dr. Judith Joseph: yeah ... that we- We talk about tapping [00:25:18] Dr. Taz: all [00:25:18] Dr. Judith Joseph: the time ... EMDR, you know. [00:25:20] But y- did you realize that you wine inside to side, that was your, your way of [00:25:25] practicing bilateral, uh, stimulation? And they're just like, "Oh, wow." And I'm like, [00:25:30] "Yeah, it's healing. That's why you feel so good when you wine." [00:25:33] Dr. Judith Joseph: Oh, [00:25:33] Dr. Taz: I love [00:25:34] Dr. Judith Joseph: that. And [00:25:35] I say to them, "You know, like, the curries that you eat, that pepper, the pepper [00:25:40] sauce, that's anti-inflammatory. So you didn't even realize that you were eating food- You're healing [00:25:43] Dr. Taz: yourself ... [00:25:44] Dr. Judith Joseph: that, yeah, [00:25:45] that makes your brain feel better, that makes your joints feel better." And when I... In my book, I talk about all the [00:25:50] different cultures. [00:25:50] Dr. Judith Joseph: I've been to Israel, I've been to the Middle East, I've traveled to Asia. Wow. [00:25:55] There's elements in your culture that you did not realize was mental health. You just [00:26:00] called it something different. So don't, don't be deterred by it. Don't say, "Oh, it's not me. Like, I don't have those problems." [00:26:04] Dr. Taz: [00:26:05] Yeah. [00:26:05] Dr. Judith Joseph: Mental health is yours. [00:26:06] Dr. Judith Joseph: You just forgot about it. And I think when people can take that [00:26:10] ownership- Right ... and they reclaim it, it feels authentic. They wanna nurture it. They... [00:26:15] Everyone has mental health. We may not all have a mental health condition, but we all have mental health [00:26:20] the way that we have physical health. Yeah. But... And we have to nurture it, we have to take care of it so that we don't develop [00:26:25] a mental health condition. [00:26:26] Dr. Taz: Do you think that we can't complete [00:26:30] our individual mental health stories until we accept the cultures from which we [00:26:35] came? [00:26:36] Dr. Judith Joseph: I think it's very difficult to reconcile, you [00:26:40] know, if your past, right? It diff- it's difficult to reconcile your problems in the [00:26:45] present if you're not acknowledging your past. Um, and I do think that [00:26:50] it just allows us to take more ownership when we think about the way [00:26:55] that our past culture, our g- cultural groups impacts our present [00:27:00] thinking. [00:27:00] Dr. Taz: Mm. [00:27:00] Dr. Judith Joseph: Many of us wanna run from it. Yes. We wanna assimilate. That's where I was going with this. We wanna be like everyone [00:27:03] Dr. Taz: else. Yeah, that's [00:27:05] exactly where I was going with this. I think that the story for many of us that are, I guess, what, what are we, [00:27:10] first generation- Mm-hmm ... second gener- whatever we are, you know, is the initial story. [00:27:13] Dr. Taz: And actually, I look at my daughter too, [00:27:15] I think the story is we wanna assimilate. [00:27:17] Dr. Judith Joseph: Yeah. [00:27:17] Dr. Taz: We don't, we don't wanna accept that we were [00:27:20] A, B, C, or D, right? And in that running from, I think we run from [00:27:25] ourselves, and at some level, I think we create more anxiety and more angst almost, you know? Yeah. So [00:27:30] that's, that's why I asked that question. [00:27:31] Dr. Taz: I don't know what you've observed and seen in your travels, like, [00:27:35] when you're going to all these different countries, whether it's Israel, I don't know if you've been to other areas of the Middle East- Mm-hmm ... yet or [00:27:40] not, I'm so curious to, to know what you saw there. You know, what are you seeing in [00:27:45] terms of how those communities heal themselves, and then how individually, many of these communities [00:27:50] around the world are, are family-centric. [00:27:52] Dr. Taz: It's not about the individual. Mm-hmm. So how does the [00:27:55] individual survive in those constructs, in a mental health construct? Because [00:28:00] my, you know, again, limited observation has been that in a lot of these [00:28:05] units, it's ignored. [00:28:07] Dr. Judith Joseph: Mm-hmm. [00:28:08] Dr. Taz: You know, or dismissed. [00:28:09] Dr. Judith Joseph: You know, [00:28:10] a lot of the cultures that I've, uh, y- interacted with will say that, "Well, [00:28:15] it's not about the individual- Right [00:28:16] Dr. Judith Joseph: it's about the family." [00:28:17] Dr. Taz: Right. Yeah. " [00:28:18] Dr. Judith Joseph: And so don't shame us," [00:28:20] right? And, "How dare you be selfish and try to create boundaries?" [00:28:23] Dr. Taz: Right. That. [00:28:24] Dr. Judith Joseph: That doesn't [00:28:25] exist. Exactly. A boundary. You know, it's, it's really difficult when you're trying to [00:28:30] have one step in one culture, and then trying- Yes ... to assimilate. And so [00:28:35] it is more challenging when you're in a different country. [00:28:37] Dr. Judith Joseph: But what I've noticed when I've traveled [00:28:40] is that people tend to find ways to separate [00:28:45] themselves from others as well. So, like, I was in China- [00:28:47] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm ... [00:28:48] Dr. Judith Joseph: and the main cultural [00:28:50] group was separating themselves from subcultures. Mm. So they're, even within a larger country- A [00:28:55] dominant [00:28:55] Dr. Taz: culture, [00:28:55] Dr. Judith Joseph: yeah ... yeah, there are, there are still separations. [00:28:57] Dr. Judith Joseph: But- What I do find is that if you [00:29:00] can bring it back to the goal, right? What is the goal for everyone? We are [00:29:05] in the same boat. You know, even if, let's say, a parent doesn't agree with a [00:29:10] child- Mm-hmm ... you know, a younger generation, just think about what the real goal is. The goal is for you [00:29:15] all to be happy, to be together, to be, um, to experience abundance. [00:29:19] Dr. Judith Joseph: So [00:29:20] you're really not fighting against each other. You may have differing ideas, different [00:29:25] perspectives, but you still have the same goal. And I find that very simple [00:29:30] message, that simple theme tends to unify people. [00:29:33] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm. [00:29:34] Dr. Judith Joseph: But often [00:29:35] I, I see this recurring theme, no matter where I travel, that people within certain cultures forget that [00:29:40] they have the same goal. [00:29:41] Dr. Taz: Mm. That happens all the time, and that creates conflict. [00:29:43] Dr. Judith Joseph: It does. It creates [00:29:45] conflict. So one person may like agree that mental health is important. We should take care of it. We should see [00:29:50] a therapist. And the other person's like, "No, that's not part of our culture." But when you bring it back to [00:29:55] the goal, like you all wanna be healthy, you wanna be together, you wanna be unified, you [00:30:00] really want the same things. [00:30:01] Dr. Judith Joseph: You're just looking at it differently. [00:30:03] Dr. Taz: I love approaching the family unit [00:30:05] that way. Mm-hmm. Like we all are on the same mission. We have the same purpose. So [00:30:10] values, venting, validation- And [00:30:15] vitals ... vitals. We know that word. What does it mean for you? [00:30:18] Dr. Judith Joseph: So of course, it's like the, the [00:30:20] typical boring doctor-y stuff. [00:30:20] Dr. Judith Joseph: Right ... like eat well. Pulse, heart rate, blood pressure. Yeah, that's so sad. Eat well, but [00:30:25] really eat foods that nurture your brain. There's a whole f- like field of nutritional [00:30:30] psychiatry now that shows that certain brain foods can be so powerful, and in some [00:30:35] studies can be very effective, even as effective as, as certain [00:30:40] medications. [00:30:40] Dr. Taz: Mm. [00:30:41] Dr. Judith Joseph: So leafy greens, omega-3 fatty acids, all are [00:30:45] brain healthy, you know, you know these things. Eating things that are not processed, because that increases [00:30:50] inflammation. Um, and then getting movement in. So you know, [00:30:55] not necessarily going to a gym, but like getting some dancing in every day. Mm-hmm. Walking, [00:31:00] steps instead of elevators. [00:31:02] Dr. Judith Joseph: And then, um, looking at things like sleep. [00:31:05] So sleep is restorative. We all need sleep. Um, making sure that you practice good sleep [00:31:10] hygiene, that you have good boundaries in the bedroom with regards to not taking work into the bedroom, [00:31:15] work-life balance. Yes. You know? Um, and then your relationship with technology. [00:31:19] Dr. Judith Joseph: This is something [00:31:20] that- That's a big one ... a lot of doctors aren't asking about, but I think it's going to be a big deal. I think that the [00:31:25] Bible of psychiatry, the DSM, will eventually include a whole r- set of disorders related [00:31:30] to tech because technology impacts us, and it's relatively new in terms of human history, [00:31:35] right? [00:31:35] Dr. Judith Joseph: Uh, and then relationships. Your doctors don't necessarily ask about your relationships. No. [00:31:40] But in longevity science, we know that the quality of relationships, that's the primary factor [00:31:45] in terms of your outcome, in terms of your longevity. [00:31:47] Dr. Taz: Wow. [00:31:47] Dr. Judith Joseph: So if you have negative, toxic [00:31:50] relationships, then that's draining your life source. [00:31:52] Dr. Judith Joseph: If you have positive relationships, that can actually [00:31:55] extend your life. So all of these things are vitals. I call it my [00:32:00] new vitals. I [00:32:00] Dr. Taz: like it. I like it. So relationships, so these are [00:32:04] Dr. Judith Joseph: personal [00:32:05] relationships. [00:32:05] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm. What about career or professional relationships? [00:32:08] Dr. Judith Joseph: The same. Equal [00:32:09] Dr. Taz: [00:32:10] value? [00:32:10] Dr. Judith Joseph: Perhaps not equal, but very important. [00:32:12] Dr. Taz: Mm. [00:32:13] Dr. Judith Joseph: You know, think about where you spend the most [00:32:15] time. [00:32:15] Dr. Taz: Right. [00:32:15] Dr. Judith Joseph: If you're spending more time with your boss, then maybe that is, [00:32:20] maybe that is the most important relationship in your life. Yeah. Because if that relationship is toxic, that's [00:32:25] draining your life source. [00:32:26] Dr. Taz: Mm. [00:32:26] Dr. Judith Joseph: I teach my patients, and then in my book I, I teach people how to [00:32:30] write a bio-psychosocial model. [00:32:32] Dr. Judith Joseph: And if you, if you're social, um, so [00:32:35] bio is, is your biology, like your genetics, your chronic conditions, the medications you take. [00:32:40] Psych- the psychology bucket is, you know, your past trauma, your resiliency [00:32:45] factors, your IQ, your attachment style. [00:32:46] Dr. Taz: Yeah. [00:32:46] Dr. Judith Joseph: Your past psych history. Social is [00:32:50] basically everything in the environment, so what you eat, how you move and so forth, but also your relationships. [00:32:54] Dr. Judith Joseph: So if you're spending the [00:32:55] majority of your time with a boss that's toxic, that belittles you, that [00:33:00] praises you, that you don't know what's gonna happen- Yeah ... that, that's dysregulating your physiology. That's [00:33:05] wearing on your heart. That's breaking down your longevity. So if that's the person you spend the most [00:33:10] time with and they're not healthy for you, you gotta reconsider that. [00:33:13] Dr. Judith Joseph: I could tell you to eat as much kale as you [00:33:15] want- And [00:33:15] Dr. Taz: it's not gonna make up [00:33:16] Dr. Judith Joseph: for that ... but if that person- Yeah ... is toxic and draining your life source, that's the real problem, right? [00:33:20] So I include that in the vi- vitals because unfortunately, in modern [00:33:25] medicine, we only have like 15 minutes to talk to patients sometimes as a, as healthcare providers, so.[00:33:30] [00:33:30] Dr. Taz: How do you feel about that? I don't feel like we can do this medicine in 15 minutes. [00:33:34] Dr. Judith Joseph: I, I [00:33:35] absolutely cannot do that. Yeah. So I mean, most psychiatrists don't have that model, but- [00:33:40] Right ... I think a lot of, uh, general practitioners- They do ... do. Right, yeah. And they're, they're in a bunch. They're, [00:33:45] they're really stuck between a rock and a hard place- Burned out [00:33:47] Dr. Judith Joseph: that we talked about. Yeah. They're burnt out and they wanna do better. [00:33:49] Dr. Taz: [00:33:50] Yeah. [00:33:50] Dr. Judith Joseph: But they really have so many constraints. That's why it's important to democratize this information so people [00:33:55] know what to look for so they can edify their own lives, you know, because 15 minutes is [00:34:00] just not enough. But doctors aren't asking about that. [00:34:03] Dr. Judith Joseph: They're not saying, "Okay, are you taking [00:34:05] your blood pressure medicine and is your boyfriend toxic?" No, that's [00:34:10] right. They're not doing that. They have to prioritize. Dr. Boyfriend, he's on a prescription, [00:34:11] Dr. Taz: right here. Go home and show it to him. [00:34:13] Dr. Judith Joseph: It's the rule of twos, right? [00:34:15] Right. Medicine doctors know that. Right. [00:34:16] Dr. Judith Joseph: They only have chance, they only have a time for 15 minutes to prioritize one or two [00:34:20] things. Right. Everything else, you're on your [00:34:21] Dr. Taz: own, right? Definitely. So relationships obviously [00:34:25] are impacting your overall mental health. Where does that fit into the five Vs? Is [00:34:30] it a part of the vitals? That's part of the vitals, yeah. [00:34:30] Dr. Taz: Part of the vitals, okay. Mm-hmm. And so there's one more V- [00:34:33] Dr. Judith Joseph: Yes ... that [00:34:33] Dr. Taz: I think I missed. Vision. [00:34:35] Vision. [00:34:35] Dr. Judith Joseph: Yeah. People who are high functioning tend to be onto the next. [00:34:40] They finish one goal, and they're onto the next, but they very rarely plan joy. Mm. [00:34:45] They don't schedule it. Mm. They don't celebrate their wins, and that is a problem. [00:34:49] Dr. Judith Joseph: [00:34:50] And it doesn't have to be a big win. You know? It doesn't have to be like, oh, I got a promotion or I [00:34:55] got this award. A win, a small win is getting your kid to school on time. You know? [00:35:00] When I get my daughter to school on time, I'm like- [00:35:02] Dr. Taz: Yes ... [00:35:02] Dr. Judith Joseph: I'm gonna sit and drink this coffee. And [00:35:05] that's my little celebration. [00:35:06] Dr. Judith Joseph: Right. I'm like giving myself praise that I did it. You know, it sounds like [00:35:10] trite, but it's not. You know? Like celebrate your small wins. If you called a [00:35:15] friend who was down and you made time for that friend, that's a win. Celebrate it, you [00:35:20] know? And the big wins are important as well. Right. Right. I have so many- [00:35:25] students that I've treated along the years who skipped graduation ceremonies, who skipped certificates Oh. [00:35:28] Dr. Judith Joseph: Uh-huh I'm like, "Cele- [00:35:30] you worked hard for that. Go to that ceremony," you know? If people name you as [00:35:35] employee of the week, celebrate it. Talk about it. It's a big deal. It's a big deal. Yeah. Yeah. If you were able [00:35:40] to set boundaries with your mother-in-law, that is a huge win. Right. [00:35:44] Dr. Taz: Celebrate that one. [00:35:45] Absolutely celebrate that one. [00:35:47] Dr. Taz: Well, here you are now entering the field of psychiatry. You've [00:35:50] switched from anesthesia. Mm-hmm. You know, what do you have to say about psychiatry [00:35:55] as it's practiced today? I know you're innovating. You've come up with the five V's. You have your [00:36:00] own trauma inventory. You're innovating the field, and we need innovators like you.[00:36:05] [00:36:05] Dr. Taz: But what's happening within the field of psychiatry? Because I know from a patient perspective, and [00:36:10] even maybe a little bit from a colleague perspective, there's a lot of frustration- Mm-hmm ... and a lot of trepidation with [00:36:15] going to a psychiatrist today, because medication and [00:36:20] pharmaceutical management seem to be the only tools offered. [00:36:23] Dr. Taz: Talk to us a little bit about that. [00:36:25] [00:36:25] Dr. Judith Joseph: So I'm in this New York City bubble, where I don't know very many psychiatrists who just do [00:36:30] medication. Right. It's mostly therapists. But I, I would imagine that the majority of the country's not like that. [00:36:35] Right. People, again, there's a shortage. Right. So a lot of psychiatrists are, are not able to do that. [00:36:39] Dr. Judith Joseph: [00:36:40] They're asking their patients to be in a therapy with a therapist who could be a [00:36:45] psychologist or a, a licensed social worker- Mm-hmm ... 'cause that's the majority of the therapists now, [00:36:50] um, just because it's just a shorter amount of training and more accessible- [00:36:55] Right ... to become that. Right. Less, and less student loans and so forth. [00:36:58] Dr. Judith Joseph: But- [00:37:00] But in, in, with the psychiatrists that I know, um, they're very holistic. [00:37:05] So they are learning about things like menopause- Mm ... and hormones- Amazing ... [00:37:10] and diets, you know, and nutritional psychiatry and movement and [00:37:15] lifestyle. And yes, it's not possible to find a psychiatrist like that [00:37:20] the majority of the time, but you can have a comprehensive treatment plan with a [00:37:25] therapist and a psychiatrist. [00:37:26] Dr. Taz: Building a team. [00:37:27] Dr. Judith Joseph: Building a team, yes. And- That's [00:37:29] Dr. Taz: collaborative, hopefully ... and a, [00:37:29] Dr. Judith Joseph: [00:37:30] and a general practitioner too, 'cause- Yeah ... because you do need labs done every now and then if you're on certain [00:37:35] medications. [00:37:35] Dr. Taz: Yeah. [00:37:35] Dr. Judith Joseph: So you are also a part of the treatment team. Don't think that I have, like, one, two, [00:37:40] three specialists, and that's it. [00:37:42] Dr. Judith Joseph: You're the glue that holds that team [00:37:45] together. So be active. Be an active participant in that team. Take, you know, notes [00:37:50] about how you're feeling. I, I, I ask my patients to log, you know, basically what they eat [00:37:55] during the day- Mm ... how much caffeine they're consuming, who they're interacting with. And take [00:38:00] these quizzes, right? [00:38:00] Dr. Judith Joseph: So that you can see, oh, on this day, you know, my depression [00:38:05] score was higher, meaning higher- Right ... as in not- Right ... a good thing. [00:38:07] Dr. Taz: Right. [00:38:08] Dr. Judith Joseph: What, what happened that day? Did I [00:38:10] get sleep the night before? Did I have too much caffeine? Did I interact with a toxic individual? You know, so [00:38:15] really become your own historian. [00:38:17] Dr. Judith Joseph: Be the best historian. Be the best part of the [00:38:20] treatment team that you can be, because you are really the glue that holds it together. [00:38:24] Dr. Taz: I [00:38:25] love that. Do you think in, within the field of psychiatry, there's more research being done on some of [00:38:30] the effects of food in mental health, technology [00:38:35] in mental health, you know, relationships and men- hormones and mental health? [00:38:39] Dr. Taz: What, [00:38:40] what does the research world look like? 'Cause I know you're, you've got your hand on that, so tell me a little bit [00:38:44] Dr. Judith Joseph: about what you're [00:38:44] Dr. Taz: [00:38:45] seeing. [00:38:45] Dr. Judith Joseph: There is a lot more research. There's a whole burgeoning field of nutritional [00:38:50] psychiatry. I- it's changed my life. I, when I started learning about the foods [00:38:55] that you can eat to beat- Mm [00:38:56] Dr. Judith Joseph: depression, to beat inflammation, I changed my whole diet. Mm. [00:39:00] Like, I, it was radical. I'm high-functioning AF, so of course I did it all at once. [00:39:05] But I really, I cut out, you know, sugary foods. I used to love the sugar in [00:39:10] my coffee. Now, I wouldn't- No, no ... even think about it. Um, I, I mean, my guilty pleasure, [00:39:15] which is kinda gross, is, like, red candies. [00:39:17] Dr. Judith Joseph: Mm. You know, like, but the red dye's so bad. [00:39:19] Dr. Taz: Oh, what did I [00:39:20] used to like? I used to like cherry sours. Do you remember those? Oh, yeah. [00:39:22] Dr. Judith Joseph: I [00:39:22] Dr. Taz: was addicted to cherry [00:39:25] sours. Obviously not anymore, but [00:39:26] Dr. Judith Joseph: yeah. There are a lot of TikToks on sour candy- Yeah ... that's helping you with, like, [00:39:30] mindfulness and so forth, but mine was red Skittles. [00:39:32] Dr. Judith Joseph: Oh. I love [00:39:32] Dr. Taz: red Skittles. [00:39:33] Dr. Judith Joseph: Red and purple. [00:39:33] Dr. Taz: Yeah. [00:39:34] Dr. Judith Joseph: But, um- [00:39:35] I cut out a lot of processed food. If I can't pronounce it, I will not eat it. Mm. [00:39:40] Um, which is really difficult to do, so do it slowly. But I found that eating [00:39:45] better made me think clearer. I was less irritable. I got better sleep. I just [00:39:50] felt better. So it was just, like, a no-brainer for me. [00:39:53] Dr. Judith Joseph: But I understand that not everyone has [00:39:55] that- Right ... you know, in them. [00:39:56] Dr. Taz: Right. [00:39:56] Dr. Judith Joseph: Um, start small. You know? Like, say, [00:40:00] "I'm going to get more protein. I'm going to get more fiber." Pick one meal or one snack [00:40:05] of the day to do right. [00:40:06] Dr. Taz: Do you think it's more important, and I get asked this in the exam room, that's why I'm [00:40:10] asking you. [00:40:10] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm. Do you think it's more important to prioritize clean food, [00:40:15] less processed food, dye-free foods, or focus more [00:40:20] on protein, fiber, that type of thing? Like- It [00:40:24] Dr. Judith Joseph: depends. If [00:40:25] you're a woman in mid-life, protein and fiber, like, all the way. [00:40:30] But for my patients with depression, anxiety, I'm like, "No processed f- like, try to limit the processed food." [00:40:34] Dr. Judith Joseph: [00:40:35] Yeah. Do clean foods, you know? Um, sometimes it's cheaper to eat foods that [00:40:40] don't have all of the, you know, processed stuff in it. Yeah. Um, but it [00:40:45] depends. But I really, for, for m- the woman in mid-life that I work with, I try to- [00:40:49] Dr. Taz: Protein ... [00:40:49] Dr. Judith Joseph: [00:40:50] protein and [00:40:50] Dr. Taz: fiber. Protein and fiber. Yep. [00:40:51] Dr. Taz: Yeah. Get, get your fiber in there. [00:40:52] Dr. Taz: And then, well, now that we're t- we're... Let [00:40:55] me back up. Now that we're thinking about different segments of the [00:41:00] population, I really wanna dial into a couple of different things. What's happening with our children? Mm. [00:41:05] Why are we seeing an escalation of mental health issues among children? And then [00:41:10] when we look at teens, it's rampant. [00:41:12] Dr. Taz: Tell me what's going on there. [00:41:13] Dr. Judith Joseph: So, you [00:41:15] know, it's no surprise that 2020 was traumatizing. Mm-hmm. And a lot of our [00:41:20] kids have not recovered from that. They're experiencing delays in math. They [00:41:25] are experiencing social anxiety. You know, that whole removal [00:41:30] from society for a while- [00:41:31] Dr. Taz: Yeah ... [00:41:31] Dr. Judith Joseph: set them back, and we have to validate that. [00:41:34] Dr. Judith Joseph: Let's [00:41:35] not just say, "Oh, like, get over it." [00:41:36] Dr. Taz: Right. [00:41:36] Dr. Judith Joseph: It happened to them. [00:41:37] Dr. Taz: Right. [00:41:38] Dr. Judith Joseph: And they were vulnerable during [00:41:40] that, that time. Also, the way that they interact now is on screens, and we're [00:41:45] learning about how devices impact the developing brain, that it's not [00:41:50] positive. [00:41:50] Dr. Taz: Mm. [00:41:50] Dr. Judith Joseph: You know, like, yes, there are positive of social media. [00:41:53] Dr. Judith Joseph: Aspects, right. You can connect [00:41:55] more. You find people that look like you. You can use it to learn. However, this [00:42:00] constant exposure, you know, that's unregulated. When you have parents who [00:42:05] are working, like, 9:00 to 7:00 jobs- Yeah ... that's a reality these days. Yeah. That the iPad [00:42:10] that, you know, the phone- Becomes the babysitter [00:42:11] Dr. Judith Joseph: that's the babysitter. [00:42:12] Dr. Taz: Yeah. [00:42:12] Dr. Judith Joseph: We have to acknowledge that. So- [00:42:15] Is there a quick fix? No, but many people, if they do this as a [00:42:20] community, if they say to, to each other like, "We're gonna try our best to not have our kids on these [00:42:25] phones, that we wait until they're 13," you know, it's called Wait Until 8th- Mm-hmm, mm-hmm [00:42:29] Dr. Judith Joseph: as an organization. [00:42:30] That maybe that's a fix, but that's very difficult to do. It's very difficult to do if you don't have [00:42:35] the resources, if you don't have support, right? Who's gonna watch the kids? Who's gonna entertain them? [00:42:39] Dr. Taz: Right. [00:42:39] Dr. Judith Joseph: [00:42:40] Um, but yes, social media has impacted their brains. Being on screens all day [00:42:45] has impacted their brains. [00:42:46] Dr. Judith Joseph: They're not connecting with each other. They're feeling lonelier more than ever. [00:42:50] They have these delays in education. I think this is the, the recipe for disaster, and not to [00:42:55] mention corporate greed. [00:42:56] Dr. Taz: Mm. [00:42:56] Dr. Judith Joseph: You know, like, parents are working hard and not, they're not making much. So you're [00:43:00] not having your attachment figures present. [00:43:02] Dr. Judith Joseph: They're stressed. [00:43:03] Dr. Taz: Mm. [00:43:03] Dr. Judith Joseph: So it's [00:43:05] impacting the most vulnerable, which are, which are [00:43:06] Dr. Taz: the kids. What's the antidote? How do we turn this around? [00:43:10] Are there things that we can do within the home or within our schools that might start to make [00:43:15] an impact on this? [00:43:16] Dr. Judith Joseph: Most child psychiatrists will tell you it has to be done in the schools because by the- In [00:43:20] the [00:43:20] Dr. Taz: schools [00:43:20] Dr. Judith Joseph: by the time you- Okay ... wait for home, it's too late. Like, the k- the parents are tired. [00:43:25] Yeah. You know, they don't have time for that. And also, who has access to a therapist after school? Right. So a [00:43:30] lot of the interventions are in the schools. So what a- what some of the schools are doing is [00:43:35] that they're teaching mental health education. [00:43:37] Dr. Judith Joseph: This wasn't a thing when I was growing up. Right, same. We learned sex ed. [00:43:39] Dr. Taz: [00:43:40] Yeah. [00:43:40] Dr. Judith Joseph: But now schools are bringing in mental health education. So this is, you know, how do you know the [00:43:45] signs that you're having depression? How do you know the signs that you're suicidal? How do you know signs of anxiety? They're [00:43:50] even talking about neurodivergence, so kids are learning about ADHD. [00:43:53] Dr. Judith Joseph: And then they're taking it a step further [00:43:55] and they're teaching children distress tolerance and skills in schools, and [00:44:00] meditation and mindfulness. And some schools are, like, just rock stars, and they're teaching- Yeah ... [00:44:05] children about toxic relationships. I'm like, "This is great." Amazing. I wish I had, [00:44:08] Dr. Taz: wish I had learned [00:44:10] [00:44:12] Dr. Taz: that. [00:44:12] Dr. Taz: Same. [00:44:12] Dr. Judith Joseph: But anyhow- They get [00:44:12] Dr. Taz: to learn [00:44:12] Dr. Judith Joseph: about love ... saved me about a [00:44:12] Dr. Taz: decade. [00:44:13] Dr. Judith Joseph: Yeah. But anyhow. Why are we [00:44:15] waiting until, like- Right ... you're, like, already married to be in- Right ... couples counseling? You should be learning about love [00:44:20] early on before you start- Such a good point ... falling into these patterns. So- [00:44:23] Dr. Taz: Such a good point [00:44:23] Dr. Judith Joseph: I, I really do believe it [00:44:25] belongs in the schools, not for the teachers, because the educators are already burdened. [00:44:29] Dr. Taz: [00:44:30] Right. [00:44:30] Dr. Judith Joseph: And, like, it's not fair to have them now teach about something that they're not even skilled in, right? [00:44:35] Um, so I do think that schools that are doing it well have a separate department [00:44:40] focused on emotional wellbeing, mental health education, and skills training. [00:44:44] Dr. Judith Joseph: And when [00:44:45] children are learning this, they're able to grow in ways that are more adaptive. They're [00:44:50] able to cope in ways that are more adaptive. They're not turning to substances to cope. Right. They're not turning to their [00:44:55] phones. And schools that are removing phones from the classroom, [00:45:00] from the school campus, they're seeing improved mental health. [00:45:03] Dr. Judith Joseph: They're seeing improved education. Our [00:45:05] schools are doing that, both of our- [00:45:06] Dr. Taz: That's [00:45:06] Dr. Judith Joseph: great ... [00:45:06] Dr. Taz: for both my children, my teenagers. You mentioned something that I, [00:45:10] I don't wanna leave on the table, the attachment style of the parent- [00:45:13] Dr. Judith Joseph: Mm-hmm ... [00:45:14] Dr. Taz: when [00:45:15] they come home from work. You know, or even maybe they're not working, they're working in the home. [00:45:19] Dr. Taz: You [00:45:20] know, talk, talk a little bit about that and mental health for the family unit. [00:45:23] Dr. Judith Joseph: Right. [00:45:24] Dr. Taz: Uh, [00:45:25] talk, talk to us about that for a second. [00:45:27] Dr. Judith Joseph: If a parent is not healthy, [00:45:30] chances are the children won't be. I mean, it is no secret in mental health, when we [00:45:35] treat families, excuse me, when we treat families, we focus on the [00:45:40] parents, too. [00:45:40] Dr. Judith Joseph: Because if a parent is coping better, if a parent is not depressed, if a [00:45:45] parent is not stressed, it, it, the children see that. Children look to their attachment [00:45:50] figures- [00:45:50] Dr. Taz: Mm ... [00:45:50] Dr. Judith Joseph: for guidance. So if you're looking at an attachment figure who's, A, not present, [00:45:55] that's neglect, or if you're looking at a attachment figure that's emotionally dysregulated, [00:46:00] you're learning those coping skills there. [00:46:02] Dr. Judith Joseph: So we really want the parents to learn as [00:46:05] well, at least in when you're in a therapy, uh, setting. [00:46:07] Dr. Taz: Right. [00:46:08] Dr. Judith Joseph: Uh, so it's, the treatment is not [00:46:10] just the child. A lot of the work is done with the parent. And the hope is [00:46:15] that in schools when you're teaching children emotional regulation and distress tolerance, that some of that [00:46:20] education is going back to the home as well. [00:46:22] Dr. Judith Joseph: Usually, the parents know what's happening, hopefully [00:46:25] they know what's happening, um, and that they get some type of curriculum. But [00:46:30] we really wanna focus on parental health. We don't wanna burden parents with having to now take care of [00:46:35] the child's mental health. [00:46:36] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm. Is there something we as parents or can [00:46:40] do within our homes to foster mental health? [00:46:44] Dr. Taz: Is it spending [00:46:45] time? Is... You'd mentioned being present. I think, you know, I kinda can look at the [00:46:50] mirror and look at myself and be like, "Am I really doing a good job at that, as busy as I am?" [00:46:55] You know, are there certain rituals, practices that we can develop, you know, within [00:47:00] the structure of our family units, you know, to establish that? [00:47:03] Dr. Taz: And then one more follow-up question to [00:47:05] that. Is there a tool families can use to screen the health of a family, [00:47:10] not just the individual, but the health of a family? [00:47:12] Dr. Judith Joseph: Well, with- uh, within my home, uh, we [00:47:15] practice the five Es. [00:47:16] Dr. Taz: I love the five Es. We validate. [00:47:17] Dr. Judith Joseph: Mm-hmm. We ta- we acknowledge how we feel. [00:47:20] My daughter's very good at that. [00:47:21] Dr. Judith Joseph: If I'm, like, trying to be Miss Busy Body, high-functioning, she'll be like, [00:47:25] "Mom, slow down." "You're tired." I'm like, "I'm tired, too." "Maybe we should [00:47:30] not, we shouldn't do that activity." Yeah. And I'm like, "Why was I doing that?" [00:47:32] Dr. Taz: Right. [00:47:33] Dr. Judith Joseph: So, you know, that's the, the unit [00:47:35] checking me, right? [00:47:35] Dr. Taz: Yeah. [00:47:36] Dr. Judith Joseph: Um, we vent, we talk about our feelings. [00:47:39] Dr. Judith Joseph: Values. [00:47:40] We, we really pour our energy and our time and our resources into things that we value. [00:47:45] Family, we, we value family. Mm. Mm-hmm. So my daughter will spend a lot of time with her cousins [00:47:50] because, uh, she values it, I value it. Um, [00:47:55] vitals, you know, getting good sleep- Healthy ... being, falling asleep at the right time, waking up at the same time. [00:47:59] Dr. Judith Joseph: My [00:48:00] daughter, sh- great diet. Like, she eats a lot of veggies. I'm lucky I have one of those kids that doesn't [00:48:05] like meat. Might be an anomaly. She is an anomaly. Yeah. But, uh, [00:48:10] we get good movement in. Like, if I'm doing my exercises, she's doing them with me. [00:48:13] Dr. Taz: Yeah. [00:48:14] Dr. Judith Joseph: You know, we practice- You're [00:48:14] Dr. Taz: [00:48:15] modeling it ... [00:48:15] Dr. Judith Joseph: modeling it. [00:48:16] Dr. Taz: Yeah. [00:48:16] Dr. Judith Joseph: Right? Um, she's not allowed to have an iPad. You [00:48:20] know, she doesn't have s- the only screen she gets is, like, television. She gets a set time. So I'm really trying to do these [00:48:25] things for her, and she'll tell me, "Mom, you've been on your phone." I'm like, "Oh my gosh, gotta put it away," right? She keeps [00:48:30] me in check. [00:48:30] Dr. Taz: Yeah. [00:48:31] Dr. Judith Joseph: So in vision, we plan joy. We have a calendar on [00:48:35] our, uh, refrigerator with the big things that we wanna celebrate and the little things that we [00:48:40] celebrate, right? So I think the five Vs, every family can do it. They're free. I wanna [00:48:45] democratize mental health. And you don't have to do all them at once. [00:48:48] Dr. Judith Joseph: You pick one or two. Yeah. The rule of [00:48:50] two is right. One or two that you think you really need to focus on. So if it's values, if, if you feel like your kids are [00:48:55] just, like, over, like, valuing materialistic things, then [00:49:00] let's figure out how to bring them back to what our family culture values. If it's [00:49:05] volunteering, maybe we'll do something like that once a month, right? [00:49:08] Dr. Judith Joseph: Or if you feel like the [00:49:10] vitals isn't s- a place where you're strong, then maybe setting better boundaries around your, your taking care [00:49:15] of your body and [00:49:15] Dr. Taz: brain. So picking, like, a category- Mm-hmm ... and just spending s- parking there and spending some time on that as a family [00:49:20] unit- [00:49:20] Dr. Judith Joseph: Yes ... [00:49:20] Dr. Taz: can probably reset the cadence for everybody there. [00:49:23] Dr. Judith Joseph: Absolutely. If communication [00:49:25] is not great in the home- Right ... then maybe focusing on venting and saying- Yeah ... "At least one day a week, [00:49:30] we're gonna, we're gonna have a dinner together, um, and talk about, you know, what we're experiencing, [00:49:35] validating how we're feeling, and venting it," right? That could be the thing. [00:49:38] Dr. Judith Joseph: And people don't know this, but [00:49:40] the number one predictor of whether or not young girls don't, you know, commit suicide [00:49:45] is having, like, family dinners. [00:49:47] Dr. Taz: Hmm. [00:49:47] Dr. Judith Joseph: Family dinners and team sports. Why? [00:49:50] There's open communication, right? There's validation happening in team sports. Same thing with [00:49:55] family dinners. Right. [00:49:55] Dr. Judith Joseph: There's open communication and validation. If families knew that, they would do that [00:50:00] more. You don't have to go out and spend a lot on a fancy- Right ... therapist. [00:50:03] Dr. Taz: Right. [00:50:03] Dr. Judith Joseph: Some cases you do, [00:50:05] but, you know, for the majority, just sitting and talking sometimes, talking about how you feel [00:50:10] openly and honestly and validating each other, it's so powerful. [00:50:14] Dr. Judith Joseph: But if we are [00:50:15] on our screens, and if we're not making time, right, if the system is oppressing and [00:50:20] not allowing us to spend time with each other, we're not gonna be [00:50:24] Dr. Taz: able to do it. Then we can't do that. Yeah. Oh my gosh, there's so [00:50:25] much more we could get into. It- there's- this is such an important topic, and I know we're pushing up [00:50:30] against time here. [00:50:31] Dr. Taz: I do want everyone to get a sense, and I actually wanna know, too, [00:50:35] tell us a little bit about your lab, the research you're doing. Tell us a little bit about what [00:50:40] people can find in this book that's coming out, on my birthday, by the way, guys. I love that. So, [00:50:45] uh, just, just connect us with kind of what's happening in your world. [00:50:48] Dr. Judith Joseph: Well, my lab is studying [00:50:50] high-functioning depression, and it's not a term that's recognized by the bible of psychiatry, [00:50:55] DSM, but it is something that I found people are struggling with. The [00:51:00] strong ones. The mom who's taking care of everyone but herself. The successful ones, right? The successful ones. [00:51:05] Yep. The teacher who's taking care of her students and not eating lunch. [00:51:08] Dr. Judith Joseph: The doctor who [00:51:10] will work through a surgery and not go to the bathroom. [00:51:12] Dr. Taz: Mm. [00:51:12] Dr. Judith Joseph: You know, the strong ones who [00:51:15] don't acknowledge their emotions, who wear that mask of productivity. No one knows they're [00:51:20] struggling. No one knows. [00:51:21] Dr. Taz: Mm. [00:51:21] Dr. Judith Joseph: I wanted something for them, because in the DSM, the [00:51:25] Bible of psychiatry, you have to check a box saying you've, you're decreased in functioning or you're [00:51:30] in distress. [00:51:30] Dr. Judith Joseph: But what about people who have these symptoms, but they're still going, they're [00:51:35] overachieving, they're over-functioning? [00:51:36] Dr. Taz: Right. [00:51:37] Dr. Judith Joseph: They don't slow down because they can't. People depend on them. What [00:51:40] about them? There's nothing for them. Yeah. Absolutely nothing for them. Yeah. So I wanted to make a book that [00:51:45] spoke to the strong one who actually is struggling. [00:51:48] Dr. Judith Joseph: And, you know, it's [00:51:50] something that, you know, if you're someone who's high-functioning in your life and they don't talk about their [00:51:55] feelings, you can... The book will speak for you. [00:51:57] Dr. Taz: And I think there's a lot of stigma, too, for the strong ones, right? Mm-hmm. [00:52:00] Like, "I, I don't need that. I don't need a therapist." Yeah. [00:52:01] Dr. Taz: "I don't need... You know, I'm, I'm fine." Mm-hmm. "I got this. I'm gonna power through." [00:52:05] So I think this is a great way to maybe start to open up those conversations so that people can [00:52:10] use the five Vs and apply it to themselves and to their family unit as well. Absolutely. I think that's [00:52:15] incredible. [00:52:15] Dr. Judith Joseph: Or the person who's culturally can't talk about how they feel. [00:52:18] Dr. Judith Joseph: Like, the student who's [00:52:20] an immigrant- Yeah ... who's like, you know, they're the first person to have the opportunity, so they can't [00:52:25] complain, because the, those before them didn't have the opportunity, right? So it's for [00:52:30] people who are not traditionally acknowledging how they're feeling, and these are [00:52:35] simple ways for them to feel full and fed, to feel whole, to beat [00:52:40] anhedonia. [00:52:40] Dr. Judith Joseph: Right. To process their trauma. Anhedonia is an important [00:52:43] Dr. Taz: word. I hope everybody heard [00:52:45] that today. I think many people walk around in that state and assume that [00:52:50] that's just the way things should be, and they sometimes blame mid-life, they sometimes blame a partner, a [00:52:55] job, a boss. But really, it needs a little bit more inner work. [00:52:59] Dr. Taz: Well, this has [00:53:00] been amazing. I've gotta ask you one last question- Mm ... before I let you go. What makes you hol? [00:53:05] What makes me hol is connection with others. [00:53:07] Dr. Judith Joseph: Mm. I'm from a family of four. Four kids. [00:53:10] Four kids. [00:53:10] Dr. Taz: I [00:53:11] Dr. Judith Joseph: love [00:53:11] Dr. Taz: it. [00:53:12] Dr. Judith Joseph: I grew up in a church, so I had a community. [00:53:15] And I know when I'm slipping, when I'm, when I stop reaching out. [00:53:19] Dr. Judith Joseph: So [00:53:20] what makes me feel hol is connection with others. [00:53:22] Dr. Taz: And this is from a woman who is grounded in so [00:53:25] much science. Mm-hmm. And at the end of the day, it's our human experience that needs each other, and I love that. [00:53:30] Well, thank you so much for joining me today. I think this is such an important conversation. [00:53:34] Dr. Taz: I [00:53:35] hope after this episode, families will sit down at the dinner table and [00:53:40] hopefully really take a hard look at where everybody is, you know, in terms of their mental [00:53:45] health, so that we can start to chip away at this crisis. Thanks again. Thank you for having me. [00:53:50] [00:53:50] Dr. Taz: Thank you so much for listening and watching today's episode of Hol Plus. [00:53:54] Dr. Taz: Be sure to [00:53:55] share this episode with your friends and family. And if you haven't already, please take a moment to subscribe [00:54:00] to this podcast on YouTube or click the follow button on Apple, Spotify, or wherever it is [00:54:05] that you get your podcasts. And don't forget to follow me on all social channels at Dr. Taz [00:54:10] MD. [00:54:10] Dr. Taz: Until next time, stay healthy and stay hol