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Dr. Rajiv Saini on Communicating Science Responsibly · Expertly Said

• Kristen Sweeney: My guest today is Dr. Rajiv Saini, Chief Scientific Officer at H2Ocean. Dr. Saini is a Harvard Medical School graduate specializing in clinical operations with a concentration in industry leadership. A dentist and periodontist by training, he's recognized for his expertise in oral systemic health research. His work primarily examines the host's inflammatory and immune responses to periodontal infections, establishing periodontitis as a significant risk factor for various systemic diseases. Experienced in implementing scientific strategies in a variety of R &D operations with his major focus on projecting research value propositions and mapping new avenues for scientific growth and innovation. His scientific portfolio includes more than 170 peer-reviewed publications in high-impact journals, five books, three book chapters, and multiple patents. His globally recognized scientific contributions and numerous research awards highlight his pioneering role in scientific advancement. Dr. Saini, welcome to the show. Dr Rajiv Saini: Thank you, Christine. Thank you for having me in your show. I appreciate that. Kristen Sweeney: Very excited to have you here. I always like to start with a little bit of an origin story. So ⁓ we heard in your bio a little bit about your many accomplishments, but can you share a little bit more about that journey, how you got to where you are today? Dr Rajiv Saini: Yeah, I I started my journey as a dentist born in a family of doctors and really they want their kid to become a doctor. So I choose to become a path of dentistry and finished my dental school. Then immediately I pursued my path to do my master's in pedontology and oral implantology. because that's what where that integrates to oral and systemic health, how they both are interconnected to each other and how it reflects each other in terms of health and disease. And but one of my greatest passion was clinical research. So I was heavily involved at that time in the clinical research, a lot of my time, splitting my days between clinical dentistry and the research at that time. And one of the other thing that I was really involved is communications, mean the scientific communications because if it is not, you know, interpreted well, if it is not disseminated well, then the purpose of the science gets defeated. So a lot of things happened during my career and then I moved to academics, multiple ranks of academia. And then finally I moved to Harvard, did my master's in operations and industry leadership. And then I work as a consultant in R &D. and then finally also joined my current company as a chief scientific officer and putting some strong science behind the company into the public domain. So here we are talking. Yeah. Kristen Sweeney: Yeah, quite a journey, quite a journey. I love that you talked about communications being a part early on. ⁓ Can you tell us a little bit more about maybe some of the lessons that you learned early or later in your career around communications and how to do that effectively? I know we're going to get into kind of communicating for different audiences, but yeah, I'd to hear any kind of early lessons. Dr Rajiv Saini: Yeah. Yeah, early in my career, I had the experience that completely changed how I think about scientific communications today. I mean, this actually goes back to the time when I was working both as a clinician and a researcher. So my days were split between very different worlds focusing on multiple research projects. One of the studies was focused on something very ahead of that time. was how to better control the oral microbiome to improve the oral hygiene, healing, and the oral systemic health outcomes. So we at that time had published a study for that project we were very proud of till now date. And it showed a very promising result. But it was very early stage, small sample size, tight controls, and lot of limitations. So internally, we were very, you know, cautiously optimistic, like, yes, we did something great. And, you know, as a classical scientist thinking, the project seemed to be very interesting to us, but not definitive. Then after a few months that really happened, you know, I start seeing how the same study was being interpreted outside the lab in a multiple versions. So one of my fellow clinicians, asked me should we change our protocol right away based on the research you published and I was a little surprised and then a patient reached out to me and asking if this was the solution they would have been waiting for, for their you know oral conditions and ironically I have seen that the headlines in some social media framed it like it's like a breakthrough study. And I remember thinking like that's not actually we did. The science had not changed. The data had not changed. Only the language changed, but the language completely changed the behavior and the expectations of the people who are reading that science. So that's what clicked to my mind at that particular time. I remember that the real risk is not about the people who won't understand the science. It is they misunderstand the science. and that misunderstanding with a lot of confidence. So that's the real pain and that, you know, a blink, the kind of a light bulb, like we have to be very cautious in able to how we interpret the signs. Kristen Sweeney: That is fascinating. I wasn't quite sure where we were going to end up with that, but the idea that the science took on this life of its own, because I think that there's this maybe unspoken feeling that if science is objective and it's factual and that it does move and it is unchanging. But what you're talking about is it kind of being interpreted and that you said the, I just want to make sure I've got this right, that the greatest challenge is that people who just don't understand the science, but it's actually misunderstanding very confidently. Yeah. Yeah. That's fascinating. I'm, I'm curious and I, know, without, without getting too political, think that misunderstanding and scientific interpretation is ⁓ certainly a very hot topic right now. What kind of principles have you learned from that lesson to Dr Rajiv Saini: Yes. Kristen Sweeney: communicate what was already accurate to begin with, but to try to manage the interpretation when something goes on to kind of have a life of its own. Dr Rajiv Saini: Yeah, so, you know, so after that episode, I always ask myself, like, we should always understand what do we truly know in terms of an outcome of any science research project or any kind of even vaccine campaigns and so many other things. What we truly know, what we don't know and what would be irresponsible to claim. So because discovery creates knowledge. but communication actually determines whether that knowledge actually helps people or not. And to me, that's where the real leadership responsibility is. So, I mean, in terms of scientific breakdown, the most misunderstanding don't come from the bad science, but they came from the bad translation of that science. As a scientist, we are trained to be precise, but not accessible to people. ⁓ Most of the time, I don't know ⁓ what your experience is, but you feel scientific world, the scientists are not so much involved in public domain. Even if the topic is hot in terms of politics or in terms of any news and media, mostly they are at the back seats and they don't take the front seat in terms of communicating the real science. They will provide you the scientific data, but they will not give you that. real depth of explanation of what to cut off and what to explain in liberation in terms of giving the right signs. The public often receives scientific information through filtration, through headlines, not context. So ⁓ have also put a key emphasis on that Kristen Sweeney: Yeah. Dr Rajiv Saini: Overcomplexity of a science creates disengagement and simultaneously oversimplification of the science also creates false certainty. So we have to be very cautious and balanced when we need to disseminate the new science. Kristen Sweeney: Yeah, I love that. ⁓ So when you were talking about accessibility, I was thinking ⁓ I have two relatives, my sister and a cousin of mine who are both medical professionals. And I have a lot of medical professionals in my family, like many pharmacists, nurse practitioners, physicians. And so in general, I consider myself a fairly well-educated lay person, right? Who's definitely not in that world, but. ⁓ can mostly keep up. So there was something that happened and my sister and my cousin all of a sudden kind of turned from addressing the general group to just talking to each other. It was like they started speaking another language and it made me realize how much interpretation they are doing all the time just to be able to get anyone to even like have a hope of keeping up. So ⁓ Dr Rajiv Saini: Okay. Yeah. Kristen Sweeney: That was, as you were talking about, just accessibility. you know, that's quite a burden, honestly, on clinical and scientific folks to be kind of translating ⁓ in that way of constantly assessing how do I give you just enough and not too much. And certainly when we work with ⁓ clients in complex spaces with science or other technical spaces, that's something we're always evaluating is Dr Rajiv Saini: That's interesting. Yeah. Kristen Sweeney: You need the context. ⁓ If you oversimplify, as you said, I think you lose credibility very, very quickly. ⁓ But give too much and it overwhelms. Dr Rajiv Saini: Yes. Yeah. Yes, because data, scientific data is not evidence and the evidence is not guidance. So the responsible communications means clearly stating what you are trying to give a message. So what is known, what is still evolving and what should not be concluded. One of the biggest thing I also learned during my more than two decades of scientific career is over promising damages trust, especially in the healthcare. So it's not a good way that you always give a trust worthy sign. It's good to give a fact worthy sign. So ⁓ that's a hard learned, but ⁓ that is the of the scientific communication, I believe. Kristen Sweeney: Yeah, definitely. Now, what I think about when I think about patients, right, patient communication, though, is that you could say it's like the what's in it for me. But I think someone who's maybe impacted by scientific research in some way, what they want to understand beyond the science is, OK, so what do I do now? What does this mean for me? What's the analysis that impacts me? Should I? take a different action, pursue a different course. And I realized the science may not always be able to answer that. So how do you think about kind of balancing being judicious, accurate, precise, not over-promising with trying to provide the information that will help people make important decisions? Dr Rajiv Saini: Yeah, very good question, Christine. appreciate that you took this point. Patients, from a patient perspective, patients always want relevance and safety and expectations of any clinical data, any scientific information that is available to them. ⁓ They want meaning and context and they hardly bother about the raw data. And I think this is something that happened during COVID time as well. when they say huge complexity, you know, they are different groups, favor and non favorable for vaccination and so many other things get involved into that. So the whole foundation for a patient perspective is if the information is coming from the science side, and that is the phase I totally believe and I say that, you know, that's the ⁓ weak part of our scientific community that we don't provide the science in a simplest way possible. And because one of the reason is that the science that is involved in the experiment and the research is so much very complex that sometimes it is very hard to simplify it so that it can reach to the general public. Now in this era of social media where the news spread much more than in Insta and Tik Tok, So, you know, it always get diluted and, you know, change to a different version when you move from one platform to another platform based on the one who is interpreting the data. So I totally believe that communications is a very strong tool that should be used in a very precise and very ethical manner, especially in the healthcare, because, you know, People are making the real time decisions about their health, about their lives, for themselves, for their loved ones. So any misinterpretation, sometimes, you know, it carries a heavy weight to them. So we have to be very precise about that. Kristen Sweeney: Yep, yeah, absolutely. And you you talked about different platforms and it's interesting because there is a point where I think you can make information available, but you can't, you also need to balance that with kind of meeting people where they are in order to reach them in the first place. So, you know, you can refer them from a social media post back to. some piece of content or a hub or somewhere where there's more deeper information available, but you can't force somebody to pursue the kind of full and broader context you can, you know, ⁓ and Hey, I mean, the illusion of control, like it's everywhere, you know, not to get too deep, but, ⁓ it is, you know, I think it's, you also can't Dr Rajiv Saini: Yes. Yeah. Kristen Sweeney: stuff every nuance into every message that you give. You have to kind of pick and choose and hope that you've created enough kind of cross connections and availability and accessibility with information that people who really want to make those decisions will pursue the full context that they need. Dr Rajiv Saini: Yes, absolutely. mean, Christine, one of the strongest points in the dissemination of the science is that to avoid, you know, a science theater and kind of a hype culture, mean, visibility should never come at the cost of accuracy. mean, you know, even in the world of science, even in the world of the scientific research. There's always a pressure to publish the research from the, know, scientific point of view in order to for their academic and their career growth. They always want to publish fast. And sometimes, you know, in order to publishing fast and multiple research papers, the information of one research project is published in multiple research papers. So there's no. interlinked connected to that and even a scientific mind and the person who is working in that domain can understand it but the real world scenario the public in general doesn't understand how it is connected so sometimes then this science comes up with the buzzwords like you know breakthrough or game changer so i mean these words should be avoided in the real world scenarios in the social media and stuff like that because people often get confused on those words. If I strongly believe in the world of science if your message if your scientific message needs hype to work the science probably is not ready yet. Kristen Sweeney: Yeah, that's so interesting. Yeah, yeah, that the science should ultimately speak for itself. Yeah. So I want to stick with this and I will say, Dr. Sahini, I think that we've inadvertently reversed the order of this episode and I think we are very deep into the one big idea right now and I'm so good with that. So we're going to keep rolling ⁓ in that regard. I am. So many good questions I want to ask you. So. Dr Rajiv Saini: Yes. Kristen Sweeney: Let's talk about this for a moment because, you know, credibility, I think, especially just in the AI era, which we are knee deep in, if not waist deep right now, ⁓ is very much a buzzword. And I'm curious if you can give us insight about credibility specifically in the more scientific context. So when you are publishing research, what are the things before we get to translating it for patients or a general population? the science itself, the way that that research is presented, what are the things that you focus on and that you're looking for when you read other publications to signal credibility and that the science is strong and that the science is sound? Dr Rajiv Saini: Yes, so I mean, it is very important to understand like translation does not end at the publication from the science perspective point of view as you have asked it begins there. So we have to understand when we are writing or reading a research paper, like how it is interpreted, like how it is contextualized and how the outcomes of the study like you know, basically the study is your main idea, the research methodology and the key conclusions and the finally the, you know, the key message. So whether the key message is responsibly applied, you know, a lot of time the study has been done in a small patients, limited controls and a lot of limitations applied to that. So there's a different layers of translation and That is where many promising science factors finding fail, not scientifically, but communicatively. Building trust, as you mentioned, in the era of AI is very critical, and especially when we have so many inputs coming up. I was reading a news article the day before yesterday. Now people are finding much more. health related answers from chat, GBT and other social media platforms rather than even before approaching to their primary care physicians. They just want to, you know, find themselves health related questions. And I am not against all the AI platform. I think they are they are meant to mean to help people in general. But since there is no. You know, a check on that, whether the information is. 100 % accurate or not. I will say that if these platforms take the responsibility of saying even that we don't know yet, it builds much more credibility with the users using them. Because at the end of the day, transparency beats confidence. I mean, repetition of honest messaging matters more than viral moments. ⁓ I want to say that people don't lose trust because science changes. They lose trust when we pretend it never does. I mean, the whole idea here is to make the research so much simplified in these AI generated platforms so that people understand it, but not misunderstand it. And that's they are lost. For the research publications that are published in scientific journals, they have to follow certain guidelines and there is a certain amount of scientific language they cannot simplify it in order to you know otherwise it will not be published so there is a challenge to that but definitely yes there are certain platforms people have been using even before the AI age like WebMD and other things where they can go for you know small size science bites information they are getting it but Yes, at the end of the day, it's the trust and the source of the signs where they are pulling these references. Kristen Sweeney: Yeah, those guardrails and those boundaries, think, are a little underappreciated, but so important. think we're seeing now how, as you said, certain guidelines and standards that have to be met ⁓ are the ways that we ensure quality, for lack of a better term. So in your experience of, know, said I think was well, well over 150 publications, as well as ⁓ you are credited with articles on the H2Ocean's blog, right? So you are, you are well versed in this full range of communication. I'm curious if you have any tips, tricks, guidance, like How do you prevent yourself or kind of work around what I call the curse of knowledge, right? Which is that you have all the context, you have all the scientific information, making sure that when you're writing for perhaps the broadest, most general audience, that you are not being overly technical ⁓ or like sometimes that can be very hard to do for yourself. So I'm curious if there's anything ⁓ you do that kind of helps you with that. Dr Rajiv Saini: Yeah, I wish during my time I would have much more podcasts like you are running now where people can learn more and more and get, you know, skills, advices from the experts like different guests that are coming to your platform that really, you know, helps in order to finish your tone and clarity. So we learned the hard way. So Communication I believe is a leadership skill not a soft skill. is always, you know, not well, well I will use the word it is not well accomplished in terms of even the medical schools when people go or the dental schools even the research universities there is no subject lines that really focuses on scientific communication. So there are you know, degrees related to that, but I'm talking about a person going to a dental or med school. They have not been so much intensified on what is the importance of scientific communication. So that's why the hold of that particular subject becomes loose. So you asked me like how I use my skills. So I always ask myself when I write a blog for people or general domain, public domain, Who is this for? What they really want to know, not what I believe. And it is very important when, especially when we are working the corporate side to separate the education from the promotion. Because if we start pushing the products in the central stage, then people don't trust the science. People don't trust your writings. So it's always 100 % important to explain the work without promoting the product. Once you have your message delivered to them, once they understood that message, then it is very easy and simple to give the solutions to their problem by giving an option for that particular product in focus like it's your vision will, this product may help you. So in that way, people get engaged with you. ⁓ You don't want to forcefully endorse them with the science which you want to tell them. Let them absorb the science which they want to look for. So that's why it keeps them engaged. Kristen Sweeney: I'm laughing because I'm thinking who hasn't downloaded, know, gone to read a white paper or a blog or an article and realized it was a sales pitch, you know, from the very beginning. It was like the only solution to this problem is this. you're right. We're talking about, you know, building trust and Dr Rajiv Saini: Yeah. Kristen Sweeney: that you said it. love what you said about how that undermines kind of the science from the beginning. It undermines your ability to be objective, ⁓ your expertise, if you will, even outside of a scientific context. that's a great insight and really helpful. You set up nicely. I do actually want to talk about the role of education. So specifically, ⁓ as chief scientific officer at Age 2 Ocean, ⁓ the company, and you'll please correct me if I'm getting any of the particulars wrong, ⁓ the method, the products are based on a particular type of sea salt. So something that I noticed that was really interesting is there's got to be a lot of education that goes into, you know, seven different kinds of salt and how those ⁓ different types have different impacts for what somebody is looking for or what kind of treatment they may be pursuing. This is a big educational component and your products range from everything from, you know, tattoo aftercare to oral treatments for chemo patients. So really, really broad audience as well. How do you think about, begin to think about education across all of those different vectors? Dr Rajiv Saini: Yeah. Yeah, definitely. It's a very great question. Thank you for asking that question. It all started with sea salt. when the company's founder and CEO, Eddie Kohler started the company long back in 2000, when sea salt was not in a big picture, when people don't consider sea salt as a major ingredient in food or in Cosmetic industry now in every grocery store you go everything is sea salt even for the ice creams chips chocolates they write bold and clear sea salt as a key ingredient in their product, so There is a reason for that because sea salt is like thousands years before even before the existence of human life before because it comes from the ocean and ocean exists before human exists, so So sea salt is nothing new But what people don't understand is there are hundreds of types of salts, even sea salts. And when people say that, you know, we are using salt ruins, for example, I want to tell you a short story. This cancer patient often recommended because of the conditions they are facing because of chemotherapy and radiation therapy. There's a huge amount of oral side effects. they have to bear like, you know, metallic taste, dry mouth, ulcerations, and so many other soreness inside the mouth. And most of the cancer hospitals, institutes, you know, the research departments and oncologists refer them to use salt rinse as part of getting them relieved from that condition. And that's huge because right now almost 21 million people in US suffer from one or the other type of cancer. So that's huge. So now the situation is that the normal salt, the table salt, is very weak. It only contains two ingredients, sodium and chloride. But the company like H2Ocean uses sea salt from the Red Sea, which is located somewhere in the Middle East, around Egypt. So that contains 82 plus minerals as compared to the two minerals of sodium and chloride. That makes a huge difference. Secondly, the table salt is processed very heavily because of the industrialization and a lot of chemicals are added in the processing of the table salt. But the sea salt itself is raw. It's always evaporated, dried. hand harvested and it is unrefined and that's why all the mineral content remains intact in the sea salt and that gives the mineral content to the skin to the tissues and that helps in healing and the other healthy outcomes in the human body. Also it is very important to understand that our body blood and saliva and all the fluids are very well connected to the minerals and the the enzymes which are found in the ocean and the sea salt coming from the ocean if it is pure unrefined hand harvested sun dried without any kind of you know additives added to that it almost matches the body saline system and that's why it gives a definitive positive outcome And on that belief, the whole company is based on the fundamentals of how sea salt can improve the health care from all perspective of different solutions. We are looking for tattoo aftercare because tattoo is a very, you know, very old historical art. People do it from so many centuries before. The healing is critical for that healing and infection control. So if you are using a right aftercare product, then it's It means a lot of vibrancy and life to the tattoo healing. Same way, oral care, hair care, nasal care, there's more than 20 categories of products, H2Ocean focused on in order to give a broader perspective of seesaw based healthcare in human systems. Kristen Sweeney: Well, I can say you definitely have your messaging dialed in because that was succinct but thorough. So I love that we were able to demo everything we've been talking about here. Love and appreciate the education. And yeah, it was just such a great example of the concepts and ideas we've been chatting about up to this point. So that was great. Thank you. ⁓ So let me see. Dr Rajiv Saini: Hahaha Yeah, yeah. Kristen Sweeney: I think that the last thing I would ask you is... ⁓ Let's go with one takeaway for our audience here. ⁓ If you'd like the audience to remember one thing from this conversation about scientific communication and expanding and translating scientific communication ⁓ beyond the journal, what's that takeaway you would like to share with them? Dr Rajiv Saini: Okay. I want to give one takeaway that understand the science, don't understand the data. I mean, once you understand the science, will much more try to, you will get much more deep into the data after the next phase. Often people, if you look at the discussions, even in the social media, how people communicate, how many people get affected, what is the percentage of that? Don't look into that. First try to understand what is the purpose of this science. If you understand the purpose of the science, you will clearly understand the solution that particular science is bringing to that. And then you can look into the deeper numbers like how many percentage, what are the criteria. So try to look into the solutions based on the science rather than just tapping into the number because that's how it rolls out in internet and the social media, you know. 39 % of the patients get improved by this drug. 39 % of the patient means what? It sounds like big number. people comment like 82 % of the study population get benefited with the study. So if the study has only 10 patients and you are saying 82 % of the study, it sounds like wow, 82%, but only seven patients are there, right? So. Try to think what is this science, why this science is in use and then look into the numbers like you know what is the statistics behind that and then you can look for the further scientific data. Don't jump into the data first on the headline. Kristen Sweeney: Yeah, I love that. So you don't have those, as you said, those kind of orphan facts that become a headline. And I was thinking as you were describing it, even the word the like 39 % of the patients, right? Because that's referring to a specific study versus 39 % of patients. ⁓ now that's a treatment that's out, you it's just got a different connotation. ⁓ So hey, words matter. Dr Rajiv Saini: Yes. you Yes. Hahaha. Kristen Sweeney: Dr. Saini, this has been great. want to transition us now into our ⁓ wrap up segment, which is the last word. So every guest on the show gets these same five questions to answer. Just go with your gut first instinct on these, okay? All right, question number one. What's your favorite word to say out loud? Dr Rajiv Saini: Okay. Okay. I will say curiosity because it is where every discovery and honestly every good question starts. Kristen Sweeney: Excellent. Question two, what's a word you know from reading, you're not quite sure how to pronounce it out loud? Dr Rajiv Saini: I will say probabilistic because science is really about likelihoods and not certainties but it's not easiest word to say quickly. Kristen Sweeney: I'm going to count the syllables in that one later. What's one phrase or saying you wish could be retired for good? Dr Rajiv Saini: I will say trust the science. ⁓ Often you see in the news, the social media, trust the science. No, I would rather say understand the science because trust comes from clarity and not slogans. Kristen Sweeney: What's a communication practice or principle that's non-negotiable for you? Dr Rajiv Saini: always communicate the value not the data I mean data informs but value is what helps people decide Kristen Sweeney: What's the last thing you read, or watched that really stuck with you? Dr Rajiv Saini: I think the power of storytelling, a simple talk, ⁓ a simple story how people remember is much more value than, you know, high data integrated slides and the complexity of the research. ⁓ It completely changed how things presented and that's what I practice in my presentations as well as in my topic. Kristen Sweeney: Excellent. I didn't even want to give any commentary. Those answers were so amazing. I just wanted to let you let you roll with those. So thank you so much. ⁓ Dr. Saini, that kind of brings our episode to a close here. But before we go, if our listeners want to learn more about you, what are the best place or places for them to find you? Dr Rajiv Saini: Yeah, I'm more than happy to connect with anyone who wants to have deep questions or just want to want to have some words with me. mean, LinkedIn will be the best way to reach out to me and I will respond to them. And other than that, I think that will be the most easiest way to find out to me and to get a quick response. Kristen Sweeney: Perfect. Well, thank you so much for being here. Dr Rajiv Saini: Yeah, thank you so much for having me and I really appreciate the work you are doing towards communication and how to better understand the communication and don't underestimate the power of real communication. So thank you to Christine, you as well for putting this into this limelight. Kristen Sweeney: You're very, very welcome. Dr Rajiv Saini: Yeah, thank you. Bye bye.