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Growing Up Different: The Impact on Belonging · Gay Men Going Deeper

• 0:00
  Speaker A: Foreign.
• 0:07
  Speaker B: Welcome to Gay Men Going Deeper, a podcast by the Gay Men's Brotherhood that showcases raw and real conversations about personal development, mental health and sexuality from an unapologetically gay perspective. I'm your host, and joining me today are Michael Diorio and Reno Johnston. Welcome, boys. So today we're talking about growing up different and the impact this has on our sense of belonging as gay men. We're going to be exploring questions like, how did growing up gay affect your sense of belonging? And what does belonging mean to you? And how do you find belonging in your life now? Okay, so why I chose this topic? Well, I'm a therapist in the gay community and I work with a shit ton of loneliness and I work with a shit ton of shame and inadequacy and all the things. And I see a lot of gay men in our community with a lot of protector parts to this, to belonging. And what comes up when we don't have belonging, exclusion, feeling abandoned, feeling rejected, these sorts of things. And I think our culture has often confused validation, attention for love and belonging. And I really want this episode to really kind of distinguish what these. How these things are different and how we can start to move towards a deeper sense of belonging. Because I think there's a lot of people that even I see that are like, oh, yeah, I've got tons of friends and I go out and I have so much fun and all these things, but yet they're still lonely, right? There's this deep, deep, deep loneliness. And I think this deep loneliness comes from not being known, not being able to fully be your authentic self and experience connection in that. And that's what belonging is, right? You look at what fitting in is. It's. We have to change who we are. And I think a lot of. A lot of gay men, I think we do use fitting in as a protector part. We try to fit in so we can feel a sense of. Of inclusion, but we're also abandoning ourselves in doing that. So I think there's an opportunity here to have a conversation about just what belonging is. Right? It's just. It's all about getting to be you, getting to be you and all your quirks, all your insecurities, all your brilliance, and you get to be accepted and loved and included for being yourself. And that's what I think we have struggled with as a community. We have a lot of belonging injuries, and I think we lead with some of these. So I want to. I want to really let the audience kind of get a sense today of what belonging is. And what it feels like, the frequency of belonging. And so they can start to notice and find this in their. In their world, in their lives. It's very healing. Belonging is a very, very healing thing. And I think it's something that we need as, as gay men, both within our culture, like our community, but I think in the greater, larger scheme of the world, we need to learn how to belong as well too. So that's the. The topic today. If you're new here, please subscribe to the channel on YouTube. And if you're listening on your favorite podcast platform, please subscribe. Leave us a review. This helps us get into the ears of the people who need us. And this podcast and YouTube channel are listener and viewer supported. So you to the show. There's a link in the show notes. You can also tap the thanks button on YouTube if you wish to support us. And then we also do have our early access option on Apple, which you get early access to our episodes. And it does help support our community. So we thank you in advance for that. Yeah, like I said, belonging is. It's one of our deepest emotional needs. And for, for a lot of us as gay men, it's something. It's been complicated by experience of bullying and rejection and hiding and feeling different. And so I want to, I want to normalize this stuff and I want to also normalize the protector parts that we've had to develop as gay to survive this. A lot of us, our nervous systems have been in survival mode since we've been little boys. And that takes a lot of courage, a lot of strength to be in that. But in order for us to heal, we need to be aware of the parts of us that we're using to mitigate the pain of not belonging and not fitting in. So just a few that identified, like lone wolf, we've done lots of episodes on this. This is one of the biggest protector parts to, you know, the fear of not belonging. We just will isolate ourselves. We'll become overly independent and not worry about having. And it can get lonely, right? It can get lonely. We might minimize connection in this place. We might stay in the closet, right? Being terrified of being rejected. So we stay in the closet and then we lose out on belonging and, and belonging to a community that can help us feel like, you know, a normal human being suppressing our emotion, validation, seeing, seeking. And then I think one of the bigger ones, like I identified is trying to fit in. When we try and fit in, we lose ourself. We. We abandon ourselves. We betray ourselves in the. In this act of trying to fit in so. And then healing. Healing this. It gives us greater capacity to allow ourselves to belong. Because I think allowing ourselves to belong starts with us. And we have to learn how to not reject ourselves, because when we're rejecting ourselves, it's almost impossible to let ourselves belong. So I think this conversation can lend itself into self belonging and belonging to community and groups and stuff as well. So, yeah, that's my little monologue to start us off. Hopefully it got some juices flowing for you guys. And so the first question is, how did growing up gay affect your sense of belonging today? I'd like to start with Reno.
• 4:58
  Speaker A: So there's layers to this. There's the belonging in the context of girls, you know, boys, family, and friends. And how I experience belonging within each of those categories differs. In the context of my family, I would say, like, you know, my siblings and I, like, we were pretty solid overall. I would say it was obvious to them that I was different, you know, and there were probably questions as well, and curiosities, I think, you know, as. As we probably discussed on this podcast before. My mom was on one of our episodes, and, you know, she explained that, like, she knew right away. And I think a lot of the adults did. Like, they knew I was different. At least. At least I was different. And. And part of that was that I was gay. And I don't think that that was a secret. So in the context of my family, I think my. My sense of belonging wasn't questioned so much when it came to the men, and specifically my dad. Certainly there was a sense of disconnection between the two of us. I didn't always feel seen, heard, witnessed, understood by him. And. And I would say there were many cases where I felt rejected, especially when I brought my sort of gay parts to the table, if you will. And it's interesting because it wasn't. The funny thing about being gay is, like, I don't. I didn't know that I was doing it. You know, it's just the thing that happens. It's. It's. And it's. It's who I am. But what I did pay attention to was when. How I was being created a negative response, right? And. And so I would pay attention to that, and I'd be like, okay, this part of me isn't safe here. This part of me isn't okay here. This part of me isn't welcomed here. And anytime that was happening, I'm just like, put it away. You know, and in this particular context, I can be you know, I can be this much me in this particular context, I can be this much me. Right? So now, granted, I will. I will give my dad this. You know, I will give my dad this. Like, he definitely, you know, tried his best and. And, you know, there were some ways I think I made it challenging for us to be in connection as well. And I can also understand his history and why it would have been difficult to relate to me in. In, you know, the ways that I think in his heart, he probably wanted to, but didn't know how. I wasn't equipped to. You know, alternatively, I had this relationship with, you know, point to my grandmother, for example, and I left my grandfather out. But, like, he was another sort of stoic character who. I believe some of these characteristics that come with being Bailey's attributes, he also, like, rejected and didn't really know what to do with my grandmother. Her. Our relationship and her space was like a sanctuary for me. It was definitely a place where I belonged. And when I say belonged, I very much so mean that, like, a lot of me was allowed at the table. I would say all of me, to be honest. You know, like, I. There. I think there were few things that weren't welcomed in that space in terms of my expression, in terms of my being. And I think that was really important because have I not had that relationship? I don't. I can't say what I would have been like. I'm not sure life would have been more difficult, for sure. I. I think it would have stunted certain development, personal development, for sure. It's interesting to say all this out loud too, because I don't know that I've given it this thought. Like, I. I haven't heard myself say this specifically before. So you're sort of witnessing this unpacking in real time. In a way. It's interesting. And then in the context of friends, you know, and the greater community, I would say, again, there was this vigilance. Like, I paid attention to where I felt I was welcomed and what parts of me I felt were welcomed. And anytime I got the sense that it wasn't safe for me to, you know, it. It wasn't safe for a certain aspect of my expression to come through that I would sort of reel it back in, if you will, or try to mask it or hide it. Masking is a great word. Actually. There was a bit of. A bit of that. And I think the last thing I'll say too is, like, there wasn't. There wasn't quite a bit of that. There was A bit of that because it was really hard for me to mask, you know, it was really hard for me to mask. And so it made me a target, I think, at times, particularly with boys, the girls and, you know, girls and women, in later years, they really tended to love me and appreciate me and celebrate me, you know, it was, like, easier for them, which was great. So I have very close relationship to. To the girls in my life and the. The women in my life. And the thing I'll say about boys and men is that when I got them alone, like when we were alone, it's so interesting to see how different they were. You know, like, suddenly ours was a place of belonging when we were, like, alone, you know, and they let their guard down or took their mask off, you know, it's like, okay, you are. There's more going on here. Yeah, that's what it's.
• 10:42
  Speaker B: I felt you the most in what you were sharing. And actually I never even associated this word with belonging. But you said all. With your grandma. You said all parts of me felt welcome.
• 10:50
  Speaker A: Yeah, right.
• 10:51
  Speaker B: And that's such a perfect word and a way to describe belonging. It's this feeling of being welcomed. Right. You're invited to be yourself. Right. And I don't think a lot of us as gay men have had that experience in many places. Right. But then there's also, you said with your grandfather and your dad and just men in general, there was parts of you that you felt weren't welcomed. And I'm curious, like, what. What were those parts for you that you've. That you perceive.
• 11:17
  Speaker A: Oh, gosh. Well, you know, it's funny. Like, I. And I won't get too deep into it because I think it confuses people and I also think it perturbs certain people. But, you know, this distinction between being gay and being homosexual. I don't know, it's just. It helps me contextualize some things, you know, because there are certain attributes, I think, that come with being gay, so to speak. You know, it was like my. My softness, my femininity, my curiosity. Like my, you know, this sort of flowiness about me, my creativity, you know, the way I move, the way I spoke, the way I expressed, the fact that I was embodied. For example, sensual, you know, sexual in my nature, vivacious. Like, there are all these, like, words that to me reflect like, a brightness. Like, you know, I almost want to get kind of woo here, but it's like, you know, it's like if I were a prism and light were shining through me, like in these Instances. It shone so brightly, you know, and anytime that were the case in the face of some of these individuals, there was a rejection of it. And I was like, oh, okay, I've got to, I've got to dim that. I've got to like, water that down a bit, you know, bring some bass to my voice or be a little more reserved in my expression, in my lightness, my light heartedness, my softness, my tenderness, my openness, my expressiveness, etc. You know, that's. That's what that, that's what that looked like. And it's so interesting to me because, like, I'm not even mad about it anymore. I'm just like, even like I shared that last night my friends and I went out for my friend's birthday and we were all in drag, you know, and like, what a beautiful sense of belonging with one another. And then to be out in the world in costume and fun and color and expression and to have all these different reactions, to be met with all these different reactions and to just be so intrigued by them. And I just remember thinking, like, there are so many people, especially the ones who kind of cringe, who long to be so expressed, to be so free, you know, they even know what that's like. You know, they can't, they can't fathom it, so they reject it. And that's sad. That's sad. Not for me, for them, you know, and I'm like, damn, you should come play. It's fun over here, you know, but.
• 13:50
  Speaker B: Sounds like you understand both sides of the fence because you, you're originally, we're talking about, you know, fitting in.
• 13:56
  Speaker A: That's kind of, yeah, totally.
• 13:58
  Speaker B: Like a protector part that you used growing up. You felt like you had to change who you were.
• 14:02
  Speaker A: Yeah, well, and the girls, I mean, gosh, sometimes it's like you see the shit that they get to wear. Like, just, I don't know, they're just like living, you know, they're like cute and fun and free and, you know, it's like the. I'm not saying you got to wear makeup, but like, it's just like there's so much more to, like, if, if you were handed a set of, I don't know, colors, if you will, it's like there's one group that gets to use, like gray and, I don't know, white and I don't even know what, like maybe brown or something like that, right? Or beige. And then, and then there's one group that's got this whole just, you know, I have this vision of, like, a kid of colors on colors on colors, you know, and that's what they get to draw from. You know, that's what they get to draw from and play with and work with, you know, and it's like, to me, that's just so. So fun and. And that's, you know, that's. That's why, like, women, it seems really, really tend to get to play in that space. I used to look at them and be like, you know, the clothes you get to wear, the way you get to be in the world, like, how. How nice and how exciting. And granted, they also had to fight for that, too. Whole other conversation, you know, but yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 15:17
  Speaker B: I think men can do that too. I don't know if it's necessary. There's so many colorful things. And you guys like to wear colorful shirts and stuff. Yeah. I think there's ways that you can explore it as a man as well.
• 15:27
  Speaker A: Totally.
• 15:28
  Speaker B: What's this bringing up for you, Michael? I'm curious.
• 15:30
  Speaker C: Yeah. I think even before. Even before gay. Even before I knew I was or knew what that was, I already had, I don't know, a wound, an issue, a challenge with belonging. Even before that, like, as long as I could remember. So it wasn't quite the gay thing that just kind of amplified it. It's like, oh, shit. Whether that was because of it, I'm not sure. That's maybe a topic for another day. But, yeah, before I even knew I was gay, I had always felt like an outsider as long as I could remember. So I often will tell you the story of the other boys. They just seem to, like, click and gel really easily. And I just didn't, like. I just didn't. I just couldn't. I didn't. I didn't have it in me. It's like I wasn't born with it. I wasn't born with the parts to, like, make friends with boys. I was shy. I was very sensitive. I had social anxiety in groups of kids, not with adults, with kids. And I thought that I was the problem because the way that the adults in the room talked about me made it sound like I was a problem. Why is Michael like this? He needs to do that more. Why is he so. Why is he like this and his brother's like that? Why is he so shy and his sister so talkative? And it's so. The way that. And of course, as a quiet, shy kid, I just observed and picked up all of this, whether they knew it or not. So I was like, oh, something's wrong with me, okay? Like, I'm the problem. And I wasn't interested and not even good at faking it. So this whole performative thing as a kid, I didn't know how to do, and I just wasn't interested. Instead, the way I dealt with it was to withdraw within myself and develop my own rich inner world. So the pictures you'll see of me as a kid and all the stories my parents and aunts and uncles will tell you was that Michael would be with his head in a book or playing whatever, a game, whatever we had in those days, or most, most often my music, headphones on Walkman, me in my own world, having a great time. I wasn't sad about it, just having my own time. So I don't even think it was really a problem until, like, I had. I was forced into these, like, social situations that kids have to go to. And I would just resent it and detest it and hate it because I just didn't felt. Didn't feel like I belonged or that I just wasn't good at it. Like, as a kid, I didn't know I didn't belong. I didn't really know that word. I just like, oh, I don't like these situations with other people. I like the ones where I'm by myself or with, like, one other friend, Max, or with my music or with my Lego set or with my book, what. What have you. Okay, so that develops my own inner world. Intro to lone wolf Michael. Intro to hyper independent Michael. Intro to resilient, strong. I meet my own needs Michael. Right. That was the birthplace of that. So that's how it affected me as a kid. And then you add the gay thing. Somewhere along the way, I realized I was gay. And I was like, okay, well, this isn't. This doesn't help things, that's for sure. Because the. The era in the area that I grew up in, there were no other gay folks. So I was like, okay, just another reason for me to keep my own secrets, stay in the closet and withdraw with him. Now, I also want to say that, yes, growing up different, gay different, whatever you want to use here, left its scars and I had to adapt. And the way I adapted was by withdrawing into myself. But at some point, those very same adaptations, coping mechanisms, let's call them that protector parts, were preventing me from belonging for real. For real, like, as an adult. And so that is a really important distinction to make in the kind of growing up part. And then once you reach the age of reason and responsibility, that's when you have to start taking responsibility for your own belonging at some point. And I'm sure we'll dive into that more as we go along. Because, you know, for anyone out there who still does feel different, regardless of how old you are, because I still do feel different in many ways. The story that I had was, I'm different, equals. I don't belong. But you can be different and belong. You can be different and you don't need to give away your differences. But it's an and not an, not a because of. And that for me was, was such a moment of like, oh, I don't need to fit in or like melt into this sea of people here. I could still be me and find that belonging with, of course, the right, with the right people. So as a kid, I excluded myself. I, I, I wish I can go back in time and like kind of give that little kid a pep talk and say, hey buddy, like, you know, I know you walk into a room and think that no one likes you and everyone's excluding you, but actually a lot of these people might just quite love you if you give yourself a chance. And I was in fact excluding myself. Of course I know this all in retrospect. I didn't know that at the time.
• 19:45
  Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, love what you just said there too. Because I think it's something that you're right. You don't always realize in the moment. But looking back, you can go, oh yeah, like there's a way in which I was contributing to my own sense of an experience of unbelonging, you know, and we, we don't realize that sometimes. Like, I've seen moments in my life where I look back with the clarity I have down. I'm like of I was in my
• 20:15
  Speaker C: own alienation still, I still do that now, though. I, I will still catch myself. I'll walk into a room and look around, not know anyone and just look and say, oh, these people aren't for me. They're not gonna like me. Or I don't like them. And if I do that, I automatically exclude myself. I'm obviously not gonna find belonging when I've decided I'm not gonna find it ahead of time. So my challenge, even now, even to this day, has been walk into a room, but don't be so quick to judge. Give it a chance. Like, let, let, let the universe surprise me is what I will, is my new mantra. And listen, I'll give it an hour, I'll give it two, and if the universe doesn't surprise me, I'm done. Peace. I gave it a chance by.
• 20:48
  Speaker B: Right.
• 20:49
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 20:49
  Speaker C: Yeah.
• 20:50
  Speaker B: It's interesting. You said, like, when you're. When your parent, the adults or the parents were kind of, like, saying things, then you made. You said you felt like there was something wrong with you.
• 20:58
  Speaker C: Yeah.
• 20:59
  Speaker B: That's like the exact mantra of shame. Right. And we start to think there's something wrong with us. And if you look at the definition of shame, it's like thinking that there's something wrong with us, we're defective, and that we're somehow unworthy of love and belonging. That's really what it comes down to. And I think so. Yeah. It's really fascinating how. If we can learn how to actually be with that feeling. Right. Because even if, let's say you're a little boy and you are introverted and, like, you don't want to hang out with the other boys, like, does that mean you have to be pathologized as if there's something wrong with you? Right. It's like, no. Like, this kid just wants to hang out. And imagine if you had a parent that came over and was like, I love that you're hanging out by yourself. You're so independent. Have fun. And they encouraged you to be that. Right. And then suddenly the experience of shame turns into an experience of empowerment. So it's. Yeah.
• 21:40
  Speaker C: Or if they had asked the right. It's not the right. Maybe different questions. Right. So instead of. Michael has to do it this way because his brother and sister did it that way. But maybe it's like, Michael doesn't like playing soccer with these kids. Maybe he would like better to, I don't know, join a book club, do something else, go to science camp, whatever. But it was always like, oh, no, he has to follow this. This recipe for belonging and friendship. But, like, that just didn't work for me. It worked for everybody else in my family, but not for me. So, like. But again, the way they talked about, like, oh, something must be wrong with him because he's. He's not making friends versus how could we enable this or facilitate this more for him so that he could.
• 22:12
  Speaker A: Right? Yeah.
• 22:13
  Speaker B: And that's exactly what creates shame. It's like comparison. There has to be.
• 22:16
  Speaker A: If.
• 22:16
  Speaker B: If shame says there's something wrong with me, there has to be something right outside of me. So you're comparing in order to feel wrong or inadequate. So, yeah, it's amazing.
• 22:25
  Speaker C: What about you, Matt?
• 22:26
  Speaker B: What about me? So, yeah, you guys are making me think about all sorts of things. Like you, Michael. I was very Similar, like, and I still have this. It's like my soul came into this life to have an experience of being an outsider in almost every single thing I do. Like, truly, like, my politics is not mainstream, my sexual orientation is not mainstream. My. The way I view the world is not mainstream. Like, I have always been on the fringe, right? And it's just how. How I've been. And I don't choose to be like that. Like, this is just who I authentically am. I. I tend to see the world very differently than most people or the majority of people, I'll say. And so I've had a lot of experiences of rejecting, feeling rejected, rejecting myself, because I, like, there must be something wrong with me because I'm not like everybody else. Growing up as a little boy and being like, super duper sensitive. This little empath. I remember, like, grade one. I would, like, go into the classroom, freak out, panic, because all this energy, and I would run back out and I would go back to my mom's car. We did this every morning for, like, so many, like, weeks. It was brutal. And so hard on my mom, so hard on me. I just couldn't assimilate. I couldn't assimilate to other people's energies, kids energies. I just, I, you know, looking back, it's like, there's definitely some neurodivergence there. There's definitely some sensitivity to energy. And then the gay piece was right in there with it all. So. Yeah, and then that carried into, you know, growing up. And I remember, you know, to tie the gay piece in. I remember growing up with. I had like, a group of gay or a group of guy friends that I hung out with. And there was probably like six or seven of us, and we were all buds since, like, super young. And I was probably around, like, grade seven. I started to feel really uncomfortable around them because I was starting to have attraction. And, you know, my, My erotic template was very different than theirs. And they were starting to talk about theirs and like, express about girls and interests. And I started to feel like, okay, wait, there's something wrong with me. I'm not like this. Why don't I have these. These experiences? And yeah, I'm like, do I share this story or not? I will, actually, because it's kind of interesting. So we were at this party. We were probably in like, grade like 9 or something like that. We're at this party and there was a girl. I'm not going to mention any names, but. And she was like, giving blowjobs to all the guys. And it was like there was like five or five of us, right? And it was like, okay, it's your turn to go back there, whatever kind of thing. And when it came to my turn, I was like, completely terrified because I'm like, oh, I don't want to tell them that. I don't want this because I'm going to be like, they're going to be like, what's wrong with you? So I ended up like, going back there and like, basically just like kind of like hanging out with her and like, you know, talking with her. But like, I was like, I'm not going to go down that road. But that was. It had a deep impact on me because I was like, wow. Like, I don't. I'm not belonging sexually. I'm not belonging with other boys. Like, so what ended up happening was I started to get like a lot of fear and anxiety around hanging out with other boys. And so I started hanging out with, with girls. And around that time I was probably, I don't know. Yeah, probably grade seven, eight, something like that. And I think all the guys that I grew up with were like, I don't know what's up with him, like, why is he not wanting to hang out with us? That sort of thing. But then I just started to hang out with girls all the way through high school. And then around 18, at the very end of high school, I came out and it was probably not a surprise to anybody, but it was. I was probably the last one to fully kind of accept and, and realize this about myself. So. Yeah, and I think the, the belonging injury for me was just noticing energy, noticing other male energy to how they would react to my energy. And sometimes it wasn't even overt. It was very much like, you know, and that's the hard thing about being an empath is I can feel people's energies. I can feel people's emotions and their, their inner world responses to me. And I could feel people being like, oh, like, this guy's like, weird. He's different. He's not like us. And yeah, it's hard. It's hard to carry that sort of stuff throughout life. So.
• 26:14
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 26:15
  Speaker C: Did you have male best friends or friends in that era or were you like, only girls?
• 26:20
  Speaker B: Well, all my friends growing up were male. And then at that point I stopped hanging out with them and I started hanging out with all females. So all my, all my friends were girls. Yeah, I had a few, A few friends. And funny enough, one of my really close buddies growing up from probably grade 101112 ended up finding out that he was gay after. And I didn't know at the time, but we were both good. We were like, hanging out all the time and nothing ever happened sexually or anything like that. But so it's kind of interesting how the universe works like that, you know, it's like I. I had an ally not knowing.
• 26:50
  Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, you could have. I wish I had known, actually. Funny you say that. I was just chatting today with a guy from my high school. Actually, my elementary school went to the same elementary school. Turns out he's gay. But I was asking because I had a couple close gay or sorry, male friends, and they maintained a friendship with me well into adulthood. To this day, we don't live in the same area anymore. But they were. I felt that they were safe because they were also, like, more studious, intellectual kind of guys, and we would, like, talk about those things and we'd be more focused on academics in school than, like, all those other things. And so I felt safe with them because of the interest. And I will say that I felt I belonged with them in that way with other guys in that sense. But then with girls in high school, I felt like I belonged in, like, the. We're going to Kiki. We're going to like. And also I liked all the same music and all the same magazines and secretly all the same boys, but I just wouldn't necessarily say that. So it's. It's interesting how, you know, we can belong with both. Both kind of groups. Not that I was trying to fit in because I was authentically mean both instances, but it's kind of like, which parts of me do I put online for which group?
• 27:51
  Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. When you were sharing, I just had this feeling. It was this feeling that I remember having as a kid when I was like, get a gay boy. And I didn't want anybody to know. It was almost this feeling of like, I didn't want them to know me better than I know myself. And it's like, you know how everyone's like, oh, he's gay, you know, and they're talking behind your back. Like, I had this fear of people talking behind my back about me being gay before I even had a chance to accept it within myself. And it's just this really yucky feeling of being exposed. Right. And like, people like, judging you and rejecting you for something that you're struggling so hard to love and.
• 28:25
  Speaker A: And.
• 28:25
  Speaker B: And not reject within yourself, you know?
• 28:28
  Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. It's a lot of work. It takes an emotional toll.
• 28:31
  Speaker B: Yeah. Big Time. All right, well, listener, viewer, what is this bringing up for you? Take a moment and maybe pause the video or the podcast and just take a moment and reflect on this question for yourself, because this is one that it's. Sometimes it's. You got to go a little deeper. It might be a little bit buried because I came in with something to share, and it's very different listening to Michael and Reno and like, so maybe what we're sharing is stimulating something for you. So take a moment and just reflect. How did growing up gay affect your sense of belonging? See what comes up for you. And if you want to come and join us in these conversations around growing up gay and what this means to you and the impact it's had on you, come and join our connection circles. They happen twice a month. Michael hosts one, I host one in the Gay Men's Brotherhood. So if you go to gay mensbrotherhood.com go to the event section to RSVP. You can find everything that's happening as far as online events in our community there. All right, second question. What does belonging mean to you, and how do you find belonging in your life? Now, Reno?
• 29:28
  Speaker A: Yeah, you echoed it back to me earlier, but it's an inclusion of self, a welcoming, an inviting of. An acceptance of, a celebration of, an appreciation of a loving of self and. And. And parts of self which can change and evolve moment to moment to moment. And it's interesting, like, if I'm to. To get a bit like, meta here, as I do, what I find really fascinating and intriguing is like, this. This the way life. The way my rel. The way my relationship to life and my relationship to self work in. In tandem in a way like life is always presenting itself to me and then. And giving me opportunities to, let's say, invite it into belonging or not. And then. And then similarly, it's also presenting me with opportunities, you know, to. To belong or not to. You know, it's this very interesting thing, though, because I. I notice, like, I see that, and then I see my relationship to myself and these different moments where I'm moving through life and I'm presented with opportunities as well to belong to myself. And so these two things kind of work in tandem in this interesting way. Life becomes a mirror. I become a mirror and a way of noticing perhaps, like, where I'm belonging or not, where I'm rejecting or inviting belonging, etc. Etc. And so, you know, coming back to the. The. The question here, I find belonging in meeting the moment and meeting myself in the moment. Like, moment to moment, you know, by meeting what arises and what occurs with increasing openness, curiosity, willingness, at most, like love, acceptance, appreciation and celebration, you know, which isn't always easy. You said something earlier, Matt, that, like, it's funny. I. I got quiet and I didn't. Like, I had to digest it because you said something that honestly made me kind of tender when you said it, and it was curious to me. And you said, I don't. I don't choose it. You're like, honestly, I don't choose it. It's just. It's just like, who I am, you know, this journey you've been on of being different, so to speak, and. And that. And. And that being like your. I don't know, like, fate, if you will, or something like that. I really, like, I. There was a compassion. Like a compassion and empathy, an openness, a tenderness, a kind of. Even, like a reverence in that moment. I was like, oh, yeah, it's so interesting. Each of our unique journeys and expressions are so sacred and so unique to each of us. And. And I just feel really grateful that increasingly I get to a place where I can honor that because I've honored it in myself, you know, I'm able to honor another. It's like, okay, cool. Like, that each of us is up to what we're up to for some reason, unbeknownst to us. Even, like, it's so. It's so big in some cases, and something that is a lifelong discovery, you know, and. And there's something, like, very sacred about that. And so I'm just increasingly in the practice of honoring that in myself. Like, this is where I'm at. This is what occurs to me. This is what makes sense to me. To me, this is what's showing up, you know, in this moment. And then just, like, welcoming it in, really welcoming it. Like, all. And like, all of it, you know, like, all of it. Even, like, it's funny. I don't know why I'm thinking about this, but it's like, you know, sometimes I'll get like a boner, right? Like, I'll get an erection or something in this, like, random, strange moment. And I remember saying one time, and, you know, maybe people are sitting. I think you're listening right now, and you're thinking, like, what. Like, where. Where does this. Like, what. What does this have to do with anything? But I remember one time I was like, I feel like I'll know that I've reached, like, you know, some. Some pinnacle of self acceptance and self confidence and Self love when I can. When I can get a boner, like, publicly and just move through the world direct without trying to sort of tame it or diminish it or judge it or feel wrong about it. You know, like, it's so funny. It's so interesting. And that brings to mind this whole of the conversation around, like, our sexuality belonging, Right. Like the sexual part of us. Because even in your own story, when you were sharing, it's interesting how the shift for you and for so many of us started when attraction came in and when sexuality showed up. Like, it's this big thing that there's so much stigma and taboo around. And I guess for me, it just. It was. It was one of these symbols of. Of, you know, of belonging to myself, of a level of comfort and self confidence and self belonging to be like, yeah, I have a boner. So what? You know, it's so much more than that. It's not just about that. It's about so much more. It's about belonging to myself and, you know, and accepting myself regardless.
• 34:45
  Speaker B: Maybe you should write a book called Belonging to My Boner.
• 34:48
  Speaker A: Honestly.
• 34:49
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 34:50
  Speaker A: Truly. Yeah.
• 34:51
  Speaker C: Don't walk in front of a school with that boner.
• 34:53
  Speaker A: What's that? Well, you know. Right, Exactly. Yeah.
• 34:56
  Speaker C: There should be some guardrails. Sure.
• 34:58
  Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. But even you saying that, it's so funny because it's also like, you know, I'm thinking about, like, if I had a son, for example, or, you know, like a son or like, even a daughter, you know, daughter gets her period or starts to, like, develop rest, you know, or sun, sun starts to get, like a boner, right? And there's this big. It's like, oh, my God. You know, it's this big thing and there's so much attached to it. And I just think, like, there's so much more going on there. Like, what am I trying to say here? Like, this is just one glaring example of an opportunity for belonging to be cultivated where it's often not, you know. Yeah, yeah.
• 35:42
  Speaker B: I want to just share because you had said that my comment made you feel tender and I. And thank you for sharing that.
• 35:48
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 35:48
  Speaker B: It's interesting because I have, like, a dual, dual duality in the way that I view this. One through my ego slash personality and one through my soul. I believe my. My beliefs tell me that I. Before my soul chose to inhabit this physical body, it chose my life plan. Like, this is the. You got to go through. And a lot of them go through the door of belonging, injuries, healing, that. So I know that I'm on this beautiful dharmic or karmic path of, like, healing all this stuff in this lifetime from probably many past lives of feeling excluded or they call them like witch wounds, like you were burned at the stake for being different and all these sorts of things. And it can be lineage, it can be ancestral, it can be all sorts of stuff. So I think that's what's happening. But yet my ego hates it because I'm like, why do I have to go through the. All. All of this strife and all this struggle around feeling different and feeling like I don't belong. But when I land into, like, my truth and like, I really can feel from a soul place, I know I'm exactly where I need to be on my path, you know? And that's how I know I've learned to, like, also embrace my journey, as, you know.
• 36:52
  Speaker A: Yeah. I don't think people realize how. How sacred that is. I mean, we do, but I think increasingly we do when we hold our own belonging in reverence, you know, then that it becomes so much easier to hold another's in reverence. And that's why I can sit down with somebody who doesn't share my politics or share my lived experience, etc. And be in communion with them, you know, when we're not, like, at each other because we're. We're different, you know? But like I said earlier, there. There were these moments with some of the boys and men through the years that I got to sit down with and connect and commune with in this really, like, intimate way. And it was in those moments that our differences weren't clashing. Like, they were there, they were present, but they didn't clash. And they could appreciate me and I could appreciate them. And there's so much, like, love there, you know, It's. It's. Yeah, but it starts here. It starts here. Like, I have to belong to myself first, you know?
• 37:57
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 37:58
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 37:58
  Speaker C: Mr. Michael, what a big question. What does belonging mean to you? And part two, how do you find belonging in your life now? So I'm going to answer it in the order in which it was asked. Great segue of what Rena was just saying is that, you know, when we talked about belonging, I was going to ask you, Matt, when you had asked the question, and I thought, I'll just. I'll just take it where I want to take it. Like, the first thing I thought was, I'll belong to what? Right? Like. Like, is it belonging to self? That's self trust. Is it belonging to another person? Which is intimacy. Whether it's sexual or not, does it matter? And then there's belonging to a group which is kind of like I feel, have a seat at the table here. So I, I took this as, as part, as the, the third one belonging to a group. Okay. So at the highest level, what I would say belonging means to me on that front, there's three components to it. It's, it's feeling accepted, I have a seat at the table valued. My presence at that table matters and it's authentic. It's, it's truly my goal. It's not a performance version of me. It's not a mask version of me, and it's not a hiding version of me. And those three need to be active, need to be true for me to really, truly feel belonging. You could have two to three, which is good. But the best belonging for me is when all three hit. And so an example of maybe when you have two out of three is let's say you have a family who loves you and they truly love you, but you can't talk about being gay around them. They're like, we love you, we just don't want to hear about it. Okay, so in that case, you're valued and you're accepted, but you're not authentic because you need to hide something that's very authentic to you. And so in that case, it's kind of a two out of three. So I'm always looking for those three out of three kind of moments. Acceptance, value and authenticity. Okay, so the second part of the question was how do you find belonging in your life? Now this is an interesting one because in this sense of belonging and in the partnership one, it's relational. You need someone else. You can't just, you can't just belong. I can't just decide I belong. So it's co created, it's relational. And that's the part that I think is the difficult part because we don't, I don't control other people. I don't get to decide if people like me, want me, value me, anything like that. I only get to decide how I show up in spaces. So the way that I like to find belonging in my life now is not focused so much. When I focus on other people and what I can't control. I get all out of whack people. Why are people like this? People suck. Why are they so superficial? Why, why, why, why, why? The world sucks and I just get really down and it actually is detrimental to me as a person. So I need to focus on, yes. It's relational, and I don't control part of it. I gotta surrender that part. But then I think, okay, well, what do I get to control here? What? Like, it's not my choice if people don't invite me to the table, but the experience, to have belong, like, the capacity to experience the belonging when I am at the table, that's on me.
• 40:36
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 40:36
  Speaker C: So as I said earlier, I would walk into a room and automatically, nope, I don't belong here. Not give anybody a chance. So my job is to not do that. My job is to say, okay, I'm in the room. Let's see what happens here. Let's not shut everybody out. Let's not judge. Right? And that's the biggest thing. I think one of. One of the biggest things I think that. That we do is we judge people. And then that shuts off belonging immediately. So we need to quit that. So what are the things I control? I control what I do. I control putting myself out there. Do I put myself out there or do I stay home and complain? The spaces in which I choose to put myself that I have control over. Do I go into, like, a nightclub situation or do I go into, like, a book club? Or do I go into something else, some other activity? Organization? Taking initiative, Putting yourself out there, dedicating time and space to doing this. Because finding friendship and finding community as an adult is very, very hard. When we were in school, we had no choice. We spent eight hours a day there. You're gonna find some friends. As an adult, it becomes a lot harder. So you really do need to dedicate time and space to this. Letting people in. When people do show up, letting them in, letting that guard down one brick at a time. Showing up for them, Right? Being inclusive of them. Because don't forget, you don't control whether they include you, but you get to control whether you include them. Right? So you can walk up to somebody who looks kind of shy, alone in the corner and say, hey, what's your name? Are you like, what are you doing here? I'm Michael. Nice to meet you. That you have control over. And so as you create more of those bonds and take ownership of this, ideally, in a perfect world, the space just becomes more inclusive and belonging is naturally born out of it. All this to say, focus on the things you can't control. Because when I focus on the things I can, I get very, very jaded, and it's not a pretty scene. And that's when I'm like, I hate everybody. I hate these people. And why they like this. Yeah, I guess I'll. I'll leave it there for now.
• 42:23
  Speaker B: Yeah. Is there, is there an environment that you feel is really easy for you to belong, that you don't even have to try? It's just easy.
• 42:29
  Speaker C: Well, I mean, besides the one that I'm in, like, because it's, It's a status quo. I mean, I feel like that's a cop out answer. I really do. Oddly enough, like gay spaces. And I know that these days that we don't really. People would argue that they're not really necessary because we've been so included in the world. But I really still do appreciate and enjoy a gay space. Like. Yeah. And I find that's really easy for me because it just, it creates a lot of less guesswork. Like, I just know. I kind of. Even though we're very different, like, I just feel safer there. Just be a product of how I grew up. But I love those spaces. I do think we need them. And I do think that it's also okay to have inclusionary spaces of the whole LGBTQ plus and also straight, gay, doesn't matter. But I do find gay specific spaces I tend to do better in given I'm in the right headspace. Not always. Sometimes it can go the opposite way if I'm in my high judgy mode.
• 43:21
  Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's easy to slide into comparison.
• 43:24
  Speaker C: Yeah.
• 43:25
  Speaker B: I find gay spaces are really important. As a single. I'm speaking for myself being single. If I'm partnered and I'm monogamous, like, I don't really. Because then there's the element of. There is no guesswork in, in spaces I'm not. I'm not needing to know who's gay or straight or whatever. I'm just looking to connect with people. To connect. Right. But when it comes to dating, like, because I'm the kind of guy that I'm like, I'll find the one straight dude at the, the, at the bar and I'll be like, yeah, ask him. I'll ask him out. Right. It's like, so it is good to go in spaces where you know that everyone's gonna be gay, hopefully.
• 43:58
  Speaker C: And when you walk into any space, but when you walk into any space, but even the ones that you want to be in, like, my initial thought, and it wasn't. It wasn't a conscious thought, it was subconscious. So really think about this was nobody wants me here or I don't like anybody here is what it was. One of those either. I don't like Anybody or nobody likes me. And again, like, when I go into a space with that mentality, even if I'm showing up, it doesn't count if you're going in with a shitty attitude. So I replaced that with let's see what, let's see what happens. Let's see how this goes. Let's see who I can connect with today. Maybe there's one person here who could be really fun to meet and, and guess what, guys, like 99% of the time, that's the experience I find is the one that I go in with the headspace of. Let's see what happens.
• 44:37
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 44:38
  Speaker C: Yeah. Be open to surprises. Choose the right rooms. I'm not saying go into a room that's not going to be good for you. Choose the right rooms that are best fit for you and what you enjoy. And also be open to surprises and be present. Don't be on your phone the whole time.
• 44:50
  Speaker B: Yeah, well. And how many times as gay men are we creating that, that notion of people don't like us? Right? And we, we lead with that. So we have this mean girl, bitchy gay Persona that we put up because we want to beat them to the punch. If they're going to reject us, we want to reject them first. Becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. Because then guess what? When you come into an environment where with a bitchy, mean, gay attitude, you're gonna, you're gonna get people being like that back to you. So you're creating your own reality. How can we approach, like, I love this, Michael. Because it's like, how can we approach a group of people regardless of whether they're gay or straight, with just trying to be open, not be judgmental, not beat them to the punch? It's like, if they're gonna reject me for being gay, that's okay. I can, I can let them reject me. I don't have to try and reject them first because then you're just, you're, you're severing connection, possibly connection, you know?
• 45:38
  Speaker C: Yeah, you know what, you say that and I'm saying this, but I, I still fall into that trap where I will prejudge people. Yeah, because, but because they have that bitchy like, you know, kind of like don't look at me, don't talk to me face. But I know why, why that is. But either way, when they have that face, then I, I meet them with that same face. I'm like, okay, fine, we're gonna like do this standoffy catty thing. And then this happened two days ago. There's this guy at the gym who always has that kind of face. And we cross each other's paths all the time. Yet another example of, like, the universe proving me wrong and humbling me. And I've just thought, oh, this is one of those bitchy gym gays. Fine. And lo and behold, I'm walking out, and he's like, you smell really good. What clone is that? I always smell that on you, and I just want you to know you smell so nice. And I'm like, what? Wasn't flirting with me. It was truly, like. I didn't. I didn't get any flirty vibes, but he just was like, all of a sudden, after months of, like, being at the gym at the same time as this guy, he said something nice, and I immediately softened to him. No. And it's interesting how that happens, right? And I've told stories. I've lived this at the beach, at clubs. Like, all of the time I go in with these people are like that. And then the universe humbles me. And so I just wish. I mean, I'm gonna forget this probably tomorrow, but, you know, I'm glad that the universe keeps reminding me. And my. I guess my mantra out there for everybody is, yeah. Be open to people surprising you, because you don't always know.
• 46:52
  Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah.
• 46:53
  Speaker B: That's a cute story. I like that.
• 46:55
  Speaker C: And now when I see him, I'm
• 46:56
  Speaker B: gonna be like, hey, yeah, now you have a buddy.
• 46:59
  Speaker C: Yeah. All because he. He had the courage to say. To say what he said and come with a really nice way to do it. So, yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 47:06
  Speaker B: We all don't need to be ice queens. We can let ourselves melt a little bit and be a little friendly.
• 47:10
  Speaker C: But it's interesting how I waited for him. Right? See, now, if we just kept doing this whole dance of we don't. We're gonna pretend we don't like each other. This is exactly what it is. But it just took one person, in this case, him, to have that moment.
• 47:22
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 47:22
  Speaker B: Yeah, that's good. He followed his nose.
• 47:24
  Speaker C: Yeah. I mean, I do smell good.
• 47:28
  Speaker B: Okay. What does belonging mean to me? Yeah. There's so many words that stand out from what you guys are sharing, like welcoming. I just think that's my new word. And it's about welcoming myself, letting myself be welcomed. Right? Like, I'm. I. I can do that too, where it's like, I'm, like, go frozen in a social situation where I'm like, I don't.
• 47:45
  Speaker A: Right.
• 47:45
  Speaker B: So I'm like, how can I welcome myself? But, yeah, Feeling included and appreciated for who I am and just getting to be myself, that's like the biggest thing now. And I don't, I don't fit in now. Like, I just, it's just something like I, if I do it, I will. I can't, I actually can't do that anymore. You know, I've done too much work on myself. That fitting in will just make me cringe at myself. So I'm like, I'm now at a place in my life where I'm like, if I can't, if I can't belong in an environment, I'm not going to be in that environment. So I'm going to only put myself in places where. So a lot of my belonging and sense of belongings come from finding my people. Right? And my. I used to, in my 20s, I had so many friends. I was like so popular. Air quotes popular. And then now I have focused on quality, not quantity. So I, my friend group is so much smaller and I'm okay with that and it feels good. So I'm learning and this is coming later in life. Like, I still haven't fully found my people yet. I don't think, like, I've definitely found some of my people and I have my soul people that are, are on my path with me and, and whatever. But I think there's also. Yeah, there's, there's, there's more people to come. I feel that.
• 48:50
  Speaker A: Right.
• 48:50
  Speaker B: More, more soul mates, so to speak. I think I have many soul mates in this life and I think there's, there's, there's more coming. So I'm excited for their arrival. And then I wrote down here identity blocks belonging. And I'm learning this about myself because the more I hold on to concepts of myself, the less belonging I can actually allow myself to experience. I have this idea of like who I am or who I should be to be attractive or cool or these sorts of things. And then when I'm not those things, I feel like I. So I'm. I'm learning how to let go of identity and just be presence and just, you know, and it's, it's so hard to do. I don't know why this is, is so freaking hard to do it for myself. I don't know if other people experience this, but it's like, why do we have such a hard time letting go of identity, you know, and, and so I can just let myself be right and like belong to different groups and these sorts of things. So I think part of it is letting go of My own judgments of myself. And I think that's. I feel like I'm a late bloomer in this area. But it's coming. It's coming along. I'm learning how to be more gentle with myself. And then I wrote down here, belonging is a feeling that I have. It's like, I like the way you framed it, Michael, because it's like, oftentimes we think of belonging as this belonging to a group or a community, but it's like there's a belonging to self, belonging to other, belonging to group. And that's what I mean. It's a feeling. It's. It originates inside of ourselves. Like, we have to have this sense that we are worthy of belonging and that we can even visualize ourselves belonging before we. Belonging can actually happen. So it doesn't just happen from action. It can like someone, a group of people could be like, you know what? Come. We want you to be part of our group. And we can feel a sense of belonging, but we can also not let that belonging in, and we cannot. So it has to kind of be this, like, inner and outer dance of, like, feeling it, but then also, like, taking action to find it and allow it to happen. And I wrote down, we lead people into how they feel about us. I can't remember why I wrote that, but it's like I'm learning that, like, even being gay, like, there's so many times where I'm like, I'll tell people I'm gay, it's like, it's nothing. They don't give a. And even if they're conservative or they don't, it's nothing to them, right? Because I lead with such a confidence about being gay, because I don't hold any shame about being gay anymore. But I know, like, when I. When sometimes people are, like, really unsure about themselves or something that they're trying to embody and they're not confident about it. I'm like, I don't think I'm confident in them either. Like, I have this feeling. So we always got to keep in mind, like, we're leading people into how they feel about us, how they see us, how they view us, all these. These things. It's like we're the leader in that, right? So I think it's. That's why. I think, you know, and maybe that's why self concept is important, because we need to, like, be a little bit more sure of who we are to be able to, like, lead people into seeing us the way we want to be seen. But yeah, yeah, What's.
• 51:25
  Speaker C: What's the space, Matt, that you feel most comfortable being yourself in? At home with other humans?
• 51:31
  Speaker B: Without other humans around? Yeah, probably when I'm. When I'm hiking and I'm not, and. And there's, like, loose conversation happening, but it's kind of just like, fun and loose and.
• 51:41
  Speaker A: Right.
• 51:41
  Speaker B: So there's that element, like. Yeah. Like, I don't do good in, like, to go to, like, a dinner party. And, like, you have to have all these, like, conversations with people where it's, like, stuffy and you have to, you know, tell people things that are happening in your life. And those things, like small talk. I don't do good in that. Those environments. Like, I do good in environments where the energy's chill, it's not loud, and there's not a bunch of crazy distractions. Like, nature's perfect for me and. And the conversation's just kind of like.
• 52:06
  Speaker C: Yeah.
• 52:06
  Speaker B: It just flows and, you know, like, sounds like.
• 52:09
  Speaker C: No pressure. No expectation. Low pressure. Low expectation. Yeah.
• 52:13
  Speaker B: Yeah, exactly.
• 52:14
  Speaker C: Yeah. Then you can kind of approach it
• 52:15
  Speaker A: at your own pace.
• 52:16
  Speaker B: Authentic. Like, I don't like pretension. I. I can't because I don't. I don't like pretending. I don't. I don't even know how to be pretentious. So it's like. It feels like I get socially awkward when. When, like, I see people being pretentious and, like, I can feel that they're not being genuine. I'm just like, oh, I don't. I get. Get me out of here.
• 52:34
  Speaker C: Yeah, I feel you.
• 52:35
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 52:36
  Speaker B: All right. Any parting comments from either of you guys?
• 52:39
  Speaker A: No. There. I. I think this. This might be, like, a future conversation, but I was thinking about what you said about judgment, and. Yeah. I just think it's a really powerful tool in noticing our judgments. It's a really powerful tool, I think, for cultivating belonging, you know, noticing where our judgments lie and big time softening around that. That work can be really powerful in cultivating belonging to ourselves, you know? Yeah. Because life is a mirror in a way.
• 53:13
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 53:14
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 53:14
  Speaker B: Like learning how to let people be as they are.
• 53:17
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 53:17
  Speaker B: And still being okay with that. I think we live in a world where if somebody's not like you, especially politically or these sorts of things, like, it's like we immediately want to judge them and reject them and say, I can't believe. Belong to wherever they belong to. And I think so. Yeah. That's a good conversation. We could have a conversation about.
• 53:34
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 53:34
  Speaker B: Judgment.
• 53:35
  Speaker C: I'd love that one.
• 53:36
  Speaker B: Yeah. We'll make it our own little therapy session. All right. Yeah. The coaching collection. So our coaching collection is a great place if this is an area where you struggle. I think we've built this whole brotherhood, the whole coaching collection as a way to kind of mitigate belonging injuries. Right. We have a pathway on confidence, we have a pathway on body positivity, community and building relationships. These are, all of these things are going to be things that can help you find a greater sense of belonging. So if you're wanting to do some work but you're not wanting to work with a therapist or a coach, we have built a program and we have in the coaching collection, we have 45 videos in those four different streams. And then we have our building better relationships course, which is a six week course and our healing your shame course, which is another six week course all within that same package. I think we're offering it for 199, $9. It's, it's very affordable and that will give you like almost probably six months of content to go through and learn and grow at your own pace. So if that's something you're interested in, go to gaymengoingdeeper.com for more information there. And yeah, thank you for coming on this journey with me today, guys. Thank you, listener, viewer as well. And hopefully we'll see you at our connection circles. We love to see the you at our fellow listeners there. And for everything, you can go to gayman's brotherhood.com until next time, everybody. Much love.