Latest / Real Estate for Real Life / Episode 7 • Mastering Leadership & Difficult Conversations - From NFL to CEOs with Jamey Mroz

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Episode 7 • Mastering Leadership & Difficult Conversations - From NFL to CEOs with Jamey Mroz · Real Estate for Real Life

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  On Real Estate for Real Life podcasts, we sit down with
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  standout business leaders to unpack what's actually working.
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  How they scale, lead teams, win clients and build businesses
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  that last. We're your hosts.
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  I'm Courtney Gauchman. And I'm Ryan Wilson, thanks for
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  tuning in. The topic for today's episode is
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  the art of the difficult conversation and leadership.
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  And we're here with our guest, Jamie Maraz, who is the founder
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  and CEO of Maraz Leadership Consulting Company.
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  And we're excited to get into a conversation with him.
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  He has a really interesting background that we can't wait to
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  hear him explain how he's kind of tied 2 worlds together.
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  So Jamie was in the NFL and D1 coach for 10 years and now he
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  runs a leadership consulting company, coaching executives.
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  And tell us a little bit more about that.
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  Tell us your background. It's not that cool.
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  Sounds. Really set the bar high for me,
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  so I appreciate that, yeah. Pretty much Tom Brady, yeah.
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  We're like JM 12, though I don't know what your number was.
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  But no, JM 13, it's not as cool as TP12 doesn't flow, you know.
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  Yeah. So thank you so much for having
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  me. Real estate for real life and I
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  feel like leadership for real life.
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  These are that we're going to tie some knots here.
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  We're going to create some connections.
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  So I appreciate. That Co branding.
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  I love that. I love it.
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  Yeah. So a little bit about my
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  background, you know, played football in college, always had
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  these dreams and aspirations, like most kids of, you know,
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  being in the NFL and, you know, after the first semester, not
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  even Right, Tore my ACL in the third game of the year.
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  And quickly realized, you know, maybe I wasn't built like the
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  rest of those guys and maybe I wasn't ready for that.
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  I prepared for that. And, you know, sitting in my
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  dorm room watching the AFCNFC championship games, I saw
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  there's there's four teams left, right.
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  And three of the teams had coaches from Springfield
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  College, which is in Massachusetts.
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  And I can remember being like, wait, what am I doing here?
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  If I want to get there, you know, how do I how do I pivot?
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  How do I transition my life and how can I get to the NFL at some
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  point? So I actually ended up
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  transferring and going to Springfield and just leveraging
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  that network, kind of worked my way through and, and worked
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  really hard. And, you know, eventually kind
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  of landed my dream job in the NFL and spent 10 years coaching
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  at a high level and was really passionate about it, really
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  exciting. And, you know, eventually had to
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  make that choice. Is this the lifestyle that I
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  want for my family? Is this a lifestyle I want for
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  myself? And, you know, made the decision
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  to pivot with the with the help of my wonderful wife, Paige.
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  She, you know, educated me on other opportunities that may be
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  out there for me and decide to move back to Boston and start,
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  start this consulting business. And I haven't looked back since.
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  It's been, it's been amazing. It's been an awesome journey.
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  That's incredible. So I also obviously dreamt of
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  being in the NFL, too, so I knew you could really.
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  Yeah. So I actually definitely relate.
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  But that's amazing. I didn't realize that you kind
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  of did that research, put two and two together about
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  Springfield College. What was it about going to
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  Springfield College that gave you that like opportunity to be
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  able to get into the NFL? Yeah, Springfield has a huge
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  network and you know, Ryan and I were just talking about
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  marketing, right? It's like, what's the best
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  marketing? Well, you know, meeting people
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  and, and getting to know people and, and connecting and building
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  relationships as well. We'll talk more about today.
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  And from a leadership standpoint, right, relationships
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  are the best way to develop things.
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  And what I saw was a ton of relationships and a ton of alum
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  from Springfield at the in these huge positions, whether GM's,
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  head coaches, scouting directors, strength coaches,
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  right, all throughout different leagues, not just the NFL, just
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  professional sports and high college athletics.
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  I just thought, you know, if that's where everyone's coming
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  from, that's probably where I need to associate with and be.
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  And although Merrimack was better football, higher level of
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  football, you know, Springfield had more career opportunities.
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  And it's funny, I, I always say I went to Merrimack College and
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  I went to Merrimack for longer than I did Springfield.
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  So it's, I always say I'm like a fake Springfield graduate.
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  I was there for like 6 months and it was like just enough to,
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  you know, get in and get the network.
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  But yeah, it was, and, and honestly, I always say it was
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  like a selfish move, right? Like I transferred, I had a
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  dream I wanted to chase, I wanted to follow.
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  And even my, what I studied, you know, I studied, I was studying
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  kinesiology. Why?
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  I wanted to be bigger, faster and stronger.
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  And then I, I got my master's in performance psychology.
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  Why? Well, I wanted to make sure that
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  I was as sharp and I was giving myself the best opportunity to
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  create the path I wanted. And to do that, you have to be
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  mentally aware, right? And I wanted to avoid some, you
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  know, family trends or things I had seen throughout different,
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  you know, genetic predepositions or things like that.
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  I'm like, all right, well, what can I do to avoid that?
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  Well, I'm going to study it and learning about it.
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  And so that's how I, I studied performance psychology and, and
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  that's ultimately what I'm working in now is taking that
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  performance psychology, the mindset, sports psychology, I
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  call it performance psychology because we're performing every
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  day as a parent, as a realtor, as a boss, as a leader, as an
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  individual, you have to lead yourself and ultimately
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  everything's a performance. I love to use the Thanksgiving
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  analogy, like if you're, if you're hosting for Thanksgiving
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  and you have to cook a Turkey, like that's pressure, right?
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  You're performing under pressure.
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  You don't want to mess up the Turkey on Thanksgiving.
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  You, you have to perform under pressure.
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  So we take these same concepts that elite athletes and coaches
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  use to perform at their best. How do we apply this to your
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  life? How do we apply this to
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  business? How do we bring the best out of
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  you and your team? And so, yeah, it's a little bit
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  about, about my journey and what I'm doing now, but it's, it's
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  been awesome. And I at times miss the NFL, but
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  I wouldn't have the life I have right now with my family and,
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  and the lifestyle. So I wouldn't trade it for the
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  world. Yeah, it's very impressive.
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  I mean, there's a lot of strategy behind what you did.
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  So you mentioned you felt like it was like a little selfish to
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  go to Springfield and transfer, but realistically speaking, that
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  was such an incredible strategy of what you were choosing to do.
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  You were choosing to grow and build something and you were
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  chasing what you were looking for, what you wanted.
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  So I think it's really impressive.
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  I think that that's interesting. I also love the dynamics of what
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  you learned in sports is absolutely something that can be
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  transferred to leadership performance.
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  So sales based performance careers and then anything that
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  has to do with the fact that you have the knowledge of, you know,
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  just kind of the understanding of the mental piece behind all
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  these things, right? How to perform at your best.
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  This is something that you absolutely can use daily and in
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  business. Yeah, no, absolutely.
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  You apply these concepts daily and sometimes we apply them and
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  we don't even know. Like you, I'm sure you have your
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  own strategies. When you feel stressed out or
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  you're feeling pressure, there are things you do to feel more
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  confident. And it's if we can be
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  intentional about that, if we can learn and you can create a
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  plan and create a structure around it.
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  Now what you're doing is you're setting yourself up for success
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  and for future situations that you come across.
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  And that's, that's really the goal when I'm working with any
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  leader or CEO. How do how do you add structure
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  in your business and in your own life so that you can perform
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  better at a higher level with less, with less energy?
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  Really, right? You don't have to think about
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  it. Yeah, we, we actually saw Jamie
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  teach a class at Champanoji in the office.
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  I've seen you do a couple classes and one of the things
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  that I walked away with was being intentional.
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  And you, most college kids are not intentional about what
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  they're doing. They're going through the daily
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  activities and that's life. You know, you were super, super
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  intentional then. OK, I want to be in the NFL in a
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  few years. What's the best path to get
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  there and kind of break it down into into smaller, smaller
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  doses? I mean, you work with some of
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  the most high performing people in the world, whether it be in
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  the sports entertainment industry, at WWE or whether it
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  be D1, you know, top level athletes or, you know, the
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  people at the pentacle of their career, which the NFL, which is
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  arguably the most, you know, it's, it's definitely in
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  America, the most popular sport. So how does, how does that
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  transition of OK, you're working with these people top athletes
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  to then now working with top executives, you know, all around
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  the country? It's a great question, Ryan,
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  and, and what I, what some people don't necessarily see
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  when I'm working with these top executives and business owners,
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  sometimes they actually have more drive than some of the
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  athletes I work with. And the reason being I think my,
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  this is my hypothesis is, you know, it's your family.
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  You want to go on vacation, you want to, you want to have a
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  different house, you want a better car.
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  Your output directly impacts that.
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  So you're more passionate about it.
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  And I've found working with executives and these hungry
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  people who just want more, it's so fulfilling and so fun because
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  when you set a goal and you achieve it and your business is
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  growing and you're adding people on your team and everything that
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  you wanted to come true is, is happening.
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  I'm like, that is the best feeling for me.
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  You know, I'm like, wow, this is awesome.
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  And they're like, Jamie, thank you so much.
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  I'm like, I did nothing, Like you did everything.
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  I didn't do anything. I'm just sitting here answering
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  some questions for you, you know, and you did it and it's,
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  it's a, it's a great feeling and it's a lot of fun.
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  Again, selfish, right? I'm like, it's the best feeling
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  in the world when I get to see these CE OS and and not even a
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  seat like CEO sounds so big, right?
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  Business owner, ten person team. You can make things happen and
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  you can change lives. You can change your own life and
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  just through creating some structure and and creating some
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  intention and how you lead and and the performance you want and
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  the outcomes you want. Just like we talked about
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  transferring schools, like let's create, let's have intentional
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  actions and let's be seeking outcomes and you can you can
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  make it happen. It's awesome.
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  It's a lot of fun. That's that's really interesting
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  to hear. I mean, is it fair to say that,
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  you know, sometimes, I know you mentioned sometimes people in
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  the NFL, they're actually less motivated.
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  Maybe they're just have this super, super talent and they
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  then that's just their natural career path.
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  But they maybe maybe aren't as passionate about it versus a
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  business owner that that's all they've done their whole life is
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  kind of prep themselves for this business.
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  They've studied for it, they've built their team, they've built
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  their organization. What difference do you see in
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  working with those people? Were you putting out more fires
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  in the NFL or being less proactive about it?
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  Or was it more, you know, so? Just by human nature, a lot of
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  times we become complacent with what we have.
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  And that's why, you know, create an attitude of gratitude is such
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  a popular term, right? Because a lot of times we can
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  forget the things we have. And it's because we either want
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  more or we always want to be working towards something.
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  And I was guilty of this in the NFL, you know, before I left.
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  You're surrounded by private planes, food.
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  Everyone wants a piece of you. Everyone's trying to get a hold
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  of you. Everyone wants something from
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  you, right? And it can you can create this
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  level of complacency where you don't necess you almost take it
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  for granted. That's probably better.
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  You take it for granted where working with an entrepreneur who
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  is putting her skin in the game and leveraging debt on their
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  house. You know, it's it's a different,
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  different level of what's it called like threat like you're
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  you're there's just different pressure and not every NFL
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  players like that. Absolutely not because the
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  majority of the guys are fighting for a spot on that
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  team, the 53 man roster. It's it's really more of a
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  minority to have a 10 year vet or someone on these huge
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  contracts. Like that's the minority.
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  Most of the guys are really fighting hard to live out their
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  dream and play in the NFL And sometimes it lasts a couple
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  weeks, sometimes it lasts a season.
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  You never really know, but I would say almost every business
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  owner I've worked with is hungry and grateful and wants more.
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  So it's, it's definitely a balance, but I, I think that's
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  sometimes what can happen. And it's just human nature,
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  right? If you create a business and
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  it's running well, and if we start talking about different
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  leadership styles when we get into laissez faire, right,
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  Sometimes you've created such a great organization and
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  structure, it runs itself. And also you have this void
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  where this is what you wanted your whole life.
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  You've wanted a business that generates income and runs on its
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  own. You've created that and now
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  you're bored. What do I do now?
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  And it's like you, this is a new challenge.
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  You're very fortunate to have this challenge, right?
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  And sometimes we have to bring perspective into that and just
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  say that this is what you've wanted.
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  I have it what? Do you want to do now?
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  I feel like that's, that's definitely a challenge, right,
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  with entrepreneurs, because what you're really truly dealing with
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  is you're dealing with driven people like you mentioned,
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  right? But also it, it's the, the
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  pressure and the amount of responsibility, right?
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  Because obviously this person signed up to be a leader.
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  This person signed up to not only worry about, you know, the
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  providing for their own families, but once you actually
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  have employees, you wake up every single day, you are
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  responsible for the other people that work for you, for their
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  families, right? For them providing for their
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  families. And of course they have to work
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  hard for it, but you're also the one that's supporting those, the
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  payroll, you're supporting the overhead.
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  So I do think that when it comes down to it, right, I want to
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  dive in to what those leadership styles look like.
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  How you can kind of transition from one leadership style into
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  the other based on who you're talking to, who you're selling
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  to, who you're working with. And learn a little bit more
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  about how you're coaching these top level entrepreneurs in order
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  to be their best self in order to get it to that point where
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  they're creating these businesses that almost run on
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  their own, right? And of course, I completely
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  understand from there, when you get bored, you get to open up
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  another business, right? That's what we do, yeah.
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  You could. You could.
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  You'll have to, but you could. Expand.
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  Go nationwide, right? Or play golf.
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  Or get really good at something else.
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  Exactly. Be intentional about.
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  Something be intentional about something is the secret.
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  That's the secret sauce. Yeah.
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  But ultimately it's like that drive that that fire in that in
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  that person, right? It's they're probably filling
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  some sort of a cup, right. So I would love to hear a little
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  bit more about how do you get someone who's more like seeking
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  out your services, looking for coaching, looking to develop and
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  craft their leadership style a little bit more so they can get
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  their business to a better place.
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  Yeah, great question. So the first step is always in
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  self-awareness, right? Like we have to figure out who
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  you are, what you want, what your, what are your desired
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  outcomes. Have you ever worked with
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  someone like me before? If you did, what went well?
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  What did you like? What didn't you like?
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  You know, I have to learn a lot about the person, the
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  individual, the situation. And then really we have to
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  create desired outcomes. Where do you want to go?
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  What do you want to do? What?
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  And then how do we want to get there?
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  And learning a lot about them. And when we talk about desired
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  styles of leadership as leaders, you really have to be a
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  chameleon. You have to be able to adapt to
• 14:51
  the different situations because you might have a business that
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  runs its health and has great systems in place and it's
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  operating well. And then you open up another
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  vertical, OK, well, this part of the business is running great.
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  So you might be able to have one type of leadership style over
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  here. But then on this side, well, you
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  just expanded into a new area. You hired new people.
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  Well, now you have to adapt your leadership style and maybe you
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  have to be more autocratic on this side.
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  You have to be more direct. You have to be more of a
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  visionary and put up guardrails more than just on this other
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  side. Everyone's kind of leading
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  themselves because you've developed that on this new side.
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  Still the same business, but maybe you have to lead
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  differently until you create that structure and you create
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  the systems in place where it is going to start running itself.
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  So you really have to be able to adapt situational and it could
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  be throughout the day. It's not like one day you're
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  democratic and then the next day you're laissez faire.
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  It's like, well, no, there might be situations within the hour
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  where, all right, it's a firestorm.
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  You need to make a decision. There's no time to hear other
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  people's like just make a choice.
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  You're the owner. The buck stops here.
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  You have to make a choice. That doesn't mean that you're an
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  aggressive, you know, dictator leader.
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  No, we, a choice had to be made. You made the choice.
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  Now we can go back and debrief on it and we can build trust.
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  We can build relationships, right?
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  That's how you can really make sure you are leading the best.
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  As always, falls back on relationships first, but there
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  are different situations where you have to have different
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  leadership styles. Yeah.
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  Can you explain, kind of give us an overview of those three
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  leadership styles and then we'll dive a little bit more into like
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  how to use them? Yeah, absolutely.
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  So the first leadership style is autocratic, and that is it has a
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  bad reputation, I think. I think sometimes it has a bad
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  Rep, but really there's a place for it.
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  And there's a time and a need where, you know, strong
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  leadership, autocratic, where I don't want to say dictatorship,
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  but you're making choices. There's a time and a place for
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  that, and we need that leadership style.
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  The next leadership style is democratic.
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  We all know what a democracy is, right?
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  It's more not necessarily everyone has a vote, but
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  everyone has a voice and that's important.
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  We want to make sure everyone has a voice again, time and a
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  place for that. If you have a brand new business
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  with all sorts of new hires and you're the founder, well, no,
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  not everyone needs a voice yet. You still need to set the
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  vision. You still need to set the
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  direction. That's more autocratic
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  leadership and that's not a dictatorship.
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  That's just you being the visionary and you calling the
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  direction. It's setting the setting, the
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  stage. So basically, yeah, you need to
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  create the systems. You are the one that has this
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  vision. You are the owner.
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  And OK, so I absolutely love that because that's definitely
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  something I think even with onboarding new people, you kind
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  of have to jump into that autocratic setting for a little
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  while, right? Because you kind of have to like
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  set the tone, show them kind of like what the standards are,
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  keep them within the guardrails, and that will ultimately help
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  them succeed. So then it can become a
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  democratic. A huge point in the NFL's
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  clarity is kindness, all right? Clarity is.
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  Kindness. Oh, that's that Brian Wilson
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  would love I. Like that?
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  That is clear to you. Clarity is kindness.
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  Yeah, that's great. What do you use normally?
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  I'd say clarity is power. Yeah, clarity is power.
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  Either way, or they're kind. Of powerful, well, it's the same
• 18:13
  thing because if I want someone to succeed, I need to be clear
• 18:16
  and I'm giving them the best opportunity.
• 18:18
  If I take this laissez faire approach, which is not absence
• 18:21
  of leadership, but you're giving more choice to these new hires
• 18:25
  that have no idea what they're doing, are we really setting
• 18:27
  them up for success? No, not really.
• 18:30
  So a big thing that we like to focus on in the NFL is clarity
• 18:34
  is kindness. And what we mean is we're trying
• 18:37
  to give the best opportunity to succeed.
• 18:38
  A lot of times when business owners will speak to me or CE
• 18:43
  OS, they'll say we want the same amount of accountability as
• 18:47
  there is in the NFL. Meaning if Ryan's not doing his
• 18:50
  job, his head's rolling down the hallway by Friday, right?
• 18:54
  And it's like, that's great. Yes, you can create
• 18:56
  accountability. But what they're forgetting is
• 18:59
  in the NFL, these guys spend all week in meetings, watching film,
• 19:06
  being taught, learning, being coached on what to do on Sunday
• 19:11
  in the game time. Imagine if you had a realtor
• 19:14
  come in and you spent six days of the week going through every
• 19:18
  single possibility scenario that could happen for one open house,
• 19:21
  how to close the deal, how to every detail, the most, the
• 19:25
  tiniest detail that you could think of.
• 19:28
  And then you do you practice it, you go and do a couple like test
• 19:32
  run open houses all. Imagine investing this much time
• 19:35
  into somebody. Then I'm like, that's the A
• 19:37
  level of accountability. Then, yeah, if they don't
• 19:39
  succeed after a couple months, you can, you can let them go for
• 19:43
  sure. But that's the level of NFL
• 19:44
  accountability. And coaches get fired, Players
• 19:46
  get fired because there's so much invested in their
• 19:49
  development. You can't have that
• 19:51
  accountability if you're not clear, if you just give someone
• 19:54
  a oh, here, go sell this house and then like it's been on the
• 19:57
  market for a month, you're fired.
• 19:58
  It's like, well, what did you do to develop them?
• 19:59
  Did you teach them? Did you invest time in them?
• 20:02
  And I think that's sometimes missing.
• 20:04
  Where CEO's or owners want to be able to hold people accountable,
• 20:08
  quote UN quote, but they're not necessarily investing in them
• 20:11
  the same way that NFL teams do and NFL owners do.
• 20:15
  So that I always try to close the gap on that.
• 20:18
  That's very eye opening because I think that, you know, Ryan and
• 20:21
  I talk about this a lot too. When it comes down to it, it's
• 20:24
  this is where standards are so important and we swear by our
• 20:28
  company's standards because it does create clarity and it's not
• 20:32
  being strict. It's actually giving people a
• 20:35
  little bit more of a road map of like this is what it takes to
• 20:37
  succeed. The other thing that we do too
• 20:39
  is we do a ton of training, but we're not at that level.
• 20:43
  We're not like six days a week in a classroom teaching people
• 20:45
  no training. People, that's why the NFL is
• 20:47
  what it is, that's why you get the product you get, and that's
• 20:50
  why it's a multibillion dollar industry because of the effort
• 20:53
  and time they put into it and they're putting a great product
• 20:56
  on the field and they expect perfection.
• 20:58
  Not every industry runs like that.
• 20:59
  So people want the accountability, but they're not
• 21:02
  willing to have the same investment.
• 21:04
  And, and that's where I try to really help educate leaders on
• 21:08
  that. Well, if you want to hold people
• 21:09
  accountable, you have to be accountable and being clear.
• 21:12
  You have to be very clear and you have to be kind.
• 21:16
  Give them an opportunity to succeed.
• 21:18
  Yeah, give them the tools, the training, the dedication that
• 21:21
  you want in order to be able to then hold them accountable.
• 21:24
  To me, that's autocratic leadership.
• 21:25
  Yeah, right. When people, a lot of times
• 21:27
  you'll think dictatorship and we think like it's negative.
• 21:30
  But in reality, no. Autocratic leadership is great
• 21:34
  in the early stages of the business.
• 21:35
  It's great with people without a lot of experience.
• 21:38
  It's great for developing and training culture, right?
• 21:40
  It's needed if you're the vision you want to create the vision
• 21:44
  you want. It's your company you have to
• 21:46
  create, and I call it guardrails.
• 21:48
  There has to be guardrails. Make sure people are headed in
• 21:50
  the right direction. I think that autocratic is also
• 21:53
  a really good example of how in our industry as a real estate
• 21:58
  agent, right, if you're working with a first time homebuyer,
• 22:00
  this is how you would actually help lead them to.
• 22:03
  And again, it's like not being, you know, a hard ass.
• 22:06
  It's not being strict. It's it's giving them the
• 22:08
  guardrails, walking them through the process, giving them the
• 22:11
  tools, the education, all of the information that they need to be
• 22:14
  able to go through that process and feel like someone was there
• 22:18
  to support them the whole entire way through.
• 22:20
  Does that seem like it's the same thing?
• 22:21
  Like a? 100%, yeah, absolutely.
• 22:24
  And a lot of times I like to think of autocratic leadership
• 22:27
  style for someone who doesn't have a lot of experience or
• 22:31
  someone who doesn't have a lot of time.
• 22:33
  So it can work both ways. Because you could be like,
• 22:35
  Jamie, let me help you and you could be asking me all these
• 22:38
  questions. I'm like, listen, just real
• 22:40
  estate for real life. I have a real life take care of
• 22:42
  it. Like I'm, I'm working with you
• 22:44
  and I'm paying you like handle it autocratic, right?
• 22:47
  That could be one or it could be you ask me questions and I have
• 22:50
  no idea what I'm talking about. And you're like, OK, I'm going
• 22:52
  to take control of the situation and we're just going to, I'm
• 22:55
  going to give you options. And in our business, front
• 22:57
  facing business, we need to practice that same clarity is
• 23:00
  kindness with our clients because if we're not educating
• 23:03
  them, you mentioned educating, that's a level of clarity.
• 23:07
  So then they can make a decision.
• 23:09
  And if there's uncertainty because they don't have that
• 23:11
  clarity and they're uncertain about something, they're not
• 23:14
  going to be able to make that big life changing decision of
• 23:16
  maybe purchasing a house or making that big investment.
• 23:18
  So it's super important. And, and when we talk about
• 23:21
  clarity, we've talked about relationships, right?
• 23:23
  It's the most important piece, especially in real estate,
• 23:25
  right? Your relationships are so
• 23:26
  important. The fastest way to break
• 23:29
  relationship or to break trust. Trust breaks a relationship is
• 23:34
  if you maybe educate, but you don't educate fully and someone
• 23:37
  gets surprised. That is one of the fastest ways
• 23:39
  where like I thought we answered all the questions and then this
• 23:42
  came out of nowhere and they're like, I was not expecting this.
• 23:45
  I now my trust on your ability to educate me is hindered.
• 23:51
  That can hurt our relationship, right?
• 23:52
  So it's really when you're educating, it's like, how can we
• 23:56
  find, how can we look into the future and see what potential
• 24:00
  things, roadblocks we could run into?
• 24:02
  How do we communicate those even?
• 24:04
  I remember when we were taking your class, you talked about
• 24:06
  trust and how important that was.
• 24:09
  And you broke it down and you said, OK, in order for someone
• 24:11
  to have a high level, severe level of trust in you, they have
• 24:14
  to be able to convey, you know, confidence, caring and
• 24:17
  character. And those were the three things
• 24:19
  that you talked about. And that was mind boggling
• 24:21
  because it really does. Trust is a big word.
• 24:23
  We use it all the time, right? But if you break it down into
• 24:25
  confidence, caring and character, can you convey that
• 24:28
  to your client or to the executive or to the NFL player
• 24:32
  you know, to them allow you to trust you?
• 24:34
  Yeah, we have to be intentional about building trust, right?
• 24:37
  Can you intentionally communicate competence without
• 24:41
  making someone feel belittled, right.
• 24:43
  That's that's it's a challenge. It's and you have to be
• 24:46
  intentional about that. How do I make sure they know
• 24:47
  what I'm talking about without me embarrassing them, right?
• 24:50
  That's that's conveying competence.
• 24:52
  Character. What is character?
• 24:55
  Is this person going to make the right choice for me and caring?
• 24:59
  Do they care about me? Do they care about the outcome?
• 25:01
  Caring is the number one most important thing.
• 25:03
  You can if you care. If someone knows you care but
• 25:06
  they don't think you're the brightest bulb, they'll still
• 25:09
  trust you because they know at the end of the day, like you
• 25:11
  might not know all the decisions, but at least you have
• 25:14
  my back, right? Right.
• 25:15
  That's caring is going to be the most important one out of that.
• 25:18
  To build trust, they have to know you care about their wants
• 25:21
  and needs and their family. Be a good human.
• 25:23
  Yeah, they have to. They have to know you care.
• 25:25
  You want to build a relationship, make sure they
• 25:26
  know you care. That's the first start.
• 25:28
  Easy enough, right? Yeah.
• 25:29
  So going back to the authoritarian style right of
• 25:33
  leadership, we call it the courting stuff.
• 25:35
  I. Don't.
• 25:37
  Know though, because one thing that I wanted to, to ask you and
• 25:41
  kind of see what you, what you think is I, I love that for new
• 25:45
  hires, I love that style, right, because I do want to take people
• 25:48
  under my wing. I want to train them, I want to
• 25:50
  grow them, I want to develop them, But my favorite thing is
• 25:53
  to then let them fly. Like that is the goal.
• 25:56
  So I always tell people I'm like, I'm going to be tough for
• 25:58
  the first six months, maybe even first year, but then you're on
• 26:01
  your own forever, like all by yourself, like, and I am here to
• 26:05
  answer any questions for you. But at that point, I fully trust
• 26:07
  you because I know I gave you everything.
• 26:09
  I gave you all the tools, I gave you all of my insights and
• 26:12
  knowledge and everything. So at that point, when you're
• 26:15
  coaching leaders and you're trying to get them to now get to
• 26:18
  that point where maybe they can get a little closer and closer
• 26:21
  to the laissez faire style, right?
• 26:23
  Where they start to get this well oiled machine style
• 26:26
  business where they can maybe golf a little bit more and they
• 26:29
  can do a little bit more, right? And it's not so much relying on
• 26:31
  them. How do you coach them into being
• 26:34
  like, you need to start to give your employees or you know,
• 26:39
  whoever is on your team, you need to start to give them a
• 26:41
  little bit more leverage and start to let them take control,
• 26:46
  right? Because now what you're doing is
• 26:47
  you're actually giving them the opportunity to, to empower.
• 26:52
  I like to empower them and like tap into their own potential.
• 26:55
  Yeah, So great question. There's a few pieces here that
• 26:59
  need to be in place. So the first one is the mindset
• 27:01
  of that leader. They have to be OK with not
• 27:05
  being the center of every decision.
• 27:07
  They have to be OK with the team winning without them, right?
• 27:10
  Like you have to be able to step back and allow everyone around
• 27:15
  you to succeed where you're used to that startup type mode where
• 27:20
  you're the autocratic leader, you're in charge.
• 27:23
  It revolves around you and sometimes it can feed your ego.
• 27:26
  And it feels good to be in charge.
• 27:28
  It feels good to be the alpha. It feels good to, you know, make
• 27:31
  all the decisions, right. You have to be OK mentally
• 27:35
  stepping back and allowing other people to have success without
• 27:40
  you, which seemed it's that might sound easy, but when
• 27:43
  you're owning a business and it's your baby, it's hard to do
• 27:46
  because you also have to trust in the system.
• 27:49
  You have to trust in the team. And that's very hard to do.
• 27:51
  And that's a big ask for a lot of leaders, which is why there's
• 27:54
  a boom right now. And a lot of older people are
• 27:57
  selling their businesses, but there's no systems in place or
• 28:00
  anything. It's like because they've run
• 28:01
  everything their whole life. So that's a whole nother.
• 28:04
  That's a whole nother story we can talk about, but that's the
• 28:07
  first piece is just your mindset.
• 28:08
  Are you OK allowing other people to succeed?
• 28:12
  Sounds simple, a lot harder in practice.
• 28:14
  When you ask a leader that though, I mean, are people
• 28:17
  really honest with you? Well, they say yes until it's
• 28:20
  like, until, until it's like, OK, well, you know, pass that
• 28:23
  doubt. And they're like, wait, what?
• 28:24
  Huh. They're making this.
• 28:26
  Well, what if they make? I'm like, well, what if they
• 28:27
  make a mistake, Right. Yeah, we're going to fix it and
• 28:30
  they'll learn from it. And now in the future, you won't
• 28:32
  have to worry about that anymore because we just worked through
• 28:34
  it. Yeah.
• 28:35
  Better question, what happens if they did it better than you?
• 28:38
  That's the scary and this is, it's the scary part.
• 28:42
  Am I no longer needed? Right, right.
• 28:44
  What do they think of me? How do I fit into this machine?
• 28:47
  It's like you've built a machine that's running so smoothly and
• 28:49
  you're trying to fit your way back in.
• 28:51
  And it's like, just let it run. Be proud of what you proud of
• 28:53
  what you created. So the first part is that
• 28:55
  mindset, which is a lot easier said than them.
• 28:58
  The second piece is just the mindset that sometimes giving
• 29:02
  other people a voice is almost seen as like a weakness where
• 29:04
  they're not making decisions. But in reality, when people help
• 29:08
  create something, the more bought in, they're going to be
• 29:11
  more bought in and they're going to be they're going to want to
• 29:14
  work harder for something they helped create.
• 29:16
  So sometimes it's democratic style of leadership is viewed as
• 29:19
  a weakness, but in reality, it's actually a strength and it and
• 29:22
  it builds more cohesion and it strengthens your team.
• 29:24
  So that's a huge misconception where, you know, people don't
• 29:28
  want to give up power, but in reality, you're creating a
• 29:30
  stronger system behind you and democratic style, it's not
• 29:33
  giving everyone a vote, it's making sure everyone has a
• 29:35
  voice. And that's the difference,
• 29:37
  right? Like, let's hear people's
• 29:38
  perspective, let's hear the thought.
• 29:40
  The decision turns in from an eye to a we, right?
• 29:43
  That's the next step. Let's start, let's stop with the
• 29:46
  eyes and let's start making more we's.
• 29:48
  And now we're going to start moving into that democratic
• 29:51
  style leadership. You're empowering people,
• 29:53
  they're growing and the team is strengthening, the cohesion is
• 29:55
  strengthening and the culture is strengthening.
• 29:59
  So I, I love saying that like, let's get away from the eyes,
• 30:01
  let's start making more we's. Who's making the decision?
• 30:03
  It should be we are making the decision.
• 30:06
  Now you're starting to move more towards that democratic style of
• 30:09
  leadership and you can scale further and grow, grow faster.
• 30:12
  Are there certain sizes of business that lean more towards,
• 30:16
  you know, autocratic or democratic?
• 30:17
  Like, hey, once you hit X number of employees, typically we see
• 30:21
  it go to a more of a democratic approach or laissez faire.
• 30:24
  What? What do you see there?
• 30:25
  It's a great question and I think it, it's really specific
• 30:29
  to industry because I mean, you can get to some of these
• 30:33
  companies with, you know, over 1000 employees.
• 30:35
  They have sales teams that are, you know, 400 people.
• 30:41
  So it's it, it, it varies on the industry because there can be,
• 30:44
  you could have a team, let's just say you have a team of 10
• 30:47
  people. You have one person in
• 30:49
  marketing, you have one person in operations, you have 1.
• 30:52
  So really the operations director, right, Like they're
• 30:56
  not necessarily managing A-Team. So is that Democratic or is that
• 31:01
  laissez faire? You know, and it and it comes
• 31:03
  down to your relationship with that person and how you guys are
• 31:07
  working together. So the short answer, no.
• 31:10
  Making a short answer long no, there's no specific number
• 31:14
  because then you could also have a startup with five people and
• 31:18
  you all see the same vision and everyone's running their own
• 31:22
  thing. And it's a startup, but it's
• 31:23
  more of a laissez faire style of leadership because everyone is
• 31:26
  just working towards the same goal.
• 31:28
  So I wouldn't say there's a specific number no makes.
• 31:31
  Sense it sounds to me because I actually love that question
• 31:34
  because I started picturing all those examples and starting to
• 31:37
  think like, well, would that be right?
• 31:38
  But it sounds to me like what it really is going to boil down to
• 31:42
  2 is like where your business is at in terms of your systems,
• 31:45
  right? Because for us, we have 4
• 31:48
  employees, but we have 10 independent contractors, right?
• 31:50
  So 10 agents in our sales department, you could call it.
• 31:54
  And with the four employees, it's so clearly defined what
• 31:58
  each person's role is. And at first it's authoritarian
• 32:02
  because you have to learn, right?
• 32:03
  You learn your role, you learn your job, but then it becomes
• 32:06
  your role is so clearly defined. It's actually very laissez faire
• 32:10
  because it's, you come to work, you know what you have to do.
• 32:13
  And it's, it's pretty easy to stick with our company vision if
• 32:18
  you're kind of following the process.
• 32:20
  And then it's also Democratic as well too, because it's like you
• 32:23
  have a voice, right? So it kind of like flows like
• 32:25
  between all three of those depending on where they're at in
• 32:29
  their career with our team, right?
• 32:30
  Does that make sense? Yeah, and and the way that it
• 32:33
  helps me with like autocratic, democratic laissez faire.
• 32:36
  I like the I, we, they, right. OK, when they are making
• 32:41
  decisions now we're in laissez faire and hands off doesn't
• 32:46
  necessarily means checked out, right?
• 32:49
  Because a lot of times we'll think, oh, laissez faire
• 32:51
  leadership is bad because they're like vacant, they're not
• 32:56
  there. And it's like, well, no, that's
• 32:57
  not the truth. They're still the visionary.
• 32:59
  They're still setting the direction.
• 33:01
  But now you are empowered to make choices.
• 33:04
  And we can have feedback loops. We can have systems in place
• 33:07
  where we're still in touch with the business.
• 33:10
  We're just not running the business.
• 33:12
  And I always like to think of that.
• 33:14
  I, we, they, who's making the decision, Did they make the
• 33:17
  decision? Did we make the decision or did
• 33:19
  I make the decision? And those are the different
• 33:21
  styles of, of leadership. And again, depending on the age
• 33:26
  of the company, the age of the team, the experience, right?
• 33:29
  And, and there's no timeline either.
• 33:30
  You could, you could do this in a week.
• 33:34
  Obviously that's a little crazy, but you know, there's no like
• 33:37
  timeline, there's no age, there's no structure.
• 33:40
  It's really about you, the relationships, the vision and
• 33:42
  how clearly are you able to show everyone this is the direction
• 33:46
  we're going in. Now you can work towards that
• 33:48
  same direction. OK, so for a business owner
• 33:51
  listening, right, who wants to someday start to become a little
• 33:57
  more laissez faire, be able to empower their team to be they
• 34:00
  making they are making decisions, right?
• 34:03
  How do you start to structure them into that?
• 34:05
  And do you ever feel that sometimes the people on the team
• 34:09
  might not be the right fit for that environment?
• 34:12
  100%. OK.
• 34:13
  Because I've always been curious, like if that's an
• 34:15
  excuse that people have, like, oh, my team wouldn't want that.
• 34:18
  My team wouldn't, like wouldn't respond well to that, or if
• 34:21
  that's a real thing. And I would love to hear your
• 34:23
  perspective on that. Yeah, I think a lot of times the
• 34:26
  people that we're putting in place are really important
• 34:29
  because it does take a certain type of person to lead, right.
• 34:34
  You're you need leaders. If you want to be a laissez
• 34:36
  faire leader, you need other leaders in the business.
• 34:38
  Valid point. And, and another piece to it, we
• 34:42
  have to be coaching process and systems and not people, right?
• 34:47
  We're coaching processes and systems.
• 34:49
  We're not coaching people. And that helps with the
• 34:53
  relationship aspect because when we're talking about something,
• 34:56
  I'm not talking about you, I'm not talking about what you did
• 35:00
  or what you bring to the table. We're talking about the system.
• 35:04
  Did the system work or did it not work?
• 35:06
  And if it didn't work, what do we need to adjust to create a
• 35:09
  better system to get the desired outcome we want?
• 35:12
  So now it's no longer a personal thing.
• 35:15
  It's it's a system thing. Now if you can't execute the
• 35:18
  system, that's a whole nother conversation.
• 35:20
  But really you need, you need good leaders in place in in
• 35:24
  positions to run a business like the business has to be run
• 35:27
  somehow, some way. So you do need those people in
• 35:30
  place. I love the way you put that
• 35:32
  because I was going to ask you like what type of leader do you
• 35:35
  enjoy most working with? And the reason why you're able
• 35:39
  to work with so many different types of industries, small
• 35:41
  businesses, large businesses, NFL sports teams, you name it,
• 35:44
  is because you're not focusing on those specific people and
• 35:47
  their personalities. You're focusing on the process
• 35:49
  in the systems. Is there a type of leader
• 35:52
  manager that is more difficult to work with that you know might
• 35:56
  focus more on the people portion of it instead of the systems and
• 35:59
  processes? The most challenging leaders to
• 36:02
  work with are ones that don't have systems or processes
• 36:06
  because it's just and it's they're hard to work for too.
• 36:09
  And they probably have more turnover and there probably are
• 36:11
  a lot of more issues. Why?
• 36:13
  Because everything you don't know what to expect.
• 36:15
  There's no consistency. And when we talk about creating
• 36:18
  trust, I mean, consistency is part of that.
• 36:20
  Can I predict, do I know how this person is going to act and
• 36:23
  respond? And if we have a erratic leader
• 36:26
  that doesn't follow any systems or doesn't have any structure to
• 36:29
  their day, to their, what's one thing that people always talk
• 36:32
  about? Well, what's your morning
• 36:33
  routine? What's this routine, right?
• 36:35
  The reason why people are always talking about routines is
• 36:37
  because the highest achievers in any industry, you can talk about
• 36:41
  the best moms, the best sales people, the best CE OS right,
• 36:45
  the best teachers. What do they have?
• 36:46
  They have structure and they have systems.
• 36:49
  Why? Because it's repeatable.
• 36:50
  You can create a great outcome, it's consistent and it takes
• 36:54
  stress off of you because you don't have to make decisions.
• 36:56
  It's predictable. It's predictable.
• 36:58
  People can trust it, right? So what's the opposite of that?
• 37:02
  Inconsistent, right? No structure, no system.
• 37:05
  Those leaders are the hardest. And sometimes, you know, I have.
• 37:08
  Have I worked with? Yes, I have.
• 37:10
  And, but sometimes it's, it's really hard to correct.
• 37:15
  And now they have to want to create habits and structures and
• 37:18
  be consistent. And it's hard in, in real
• 37:20
  estate, real estate for real life.
• 37:22
  It's hard when you're going to an event on a Thursday night to
• 37:26
  network and then Friday morning you're like, oh, I'm supposed to
• 37:28
  work out in the morning. Well, you just, we're out until
• 37:31
  midnight. It's hard to wake up at 5:00 AM
• 37:32
  after a long night. So, you know, it's being able to
• 37:35
  adjust and make systems that work for you.
• 37:39
  If I go to an event on a Thursday night, I plan ahead,
• 37:41
  I'm going to work out Thursday morning, I'm going to take
• 37:43
  Friday morning off. It's like it's just creating
• 37:46
  checks and balances for yourself and creating structure.
• 37:49
  And to me, I feel like everyone can have systems in place,
• 37:52
  everyone can have structure. And we ought, we either have one
• 37:55
  by default or we have one with intentions, right?
• 37:58
  Because we all have our default systems.
• 38:00
  So it's you're either creating one or you're relying on
• 38:03
  whatever you fall back on. And that's when people like, I
• 38:06
  don't have a system like, yo, you do.
• 38:07
  Yeah, you do. What time do you wake up?
• 38:09
  Whenever I wake up, that's your system.
• 38:11
  Your system is, you don't have an alarm.
• 38:13
  You don't, you don't create a system that is your default
• 38:16
  system. So we want to make sure we're
• 38:17
  intentional about our systems and make sure they're leading us
• 38:21
  in the desired direction. What are the results we want?
• 38:24
  You made a comment which always sticks in my mind in the class
• 38:26
  we took with you, that you say elite by choice.
• 38:29
  Yeah, and I love that saying because it really is your
• 38:31
  choice. It's your choice to set the
• 38:33
  alarm. It's your choice to put systems
• 38:35
  in place. It's your choice to say no, it's
• 38:37
  just my way, and that's the best way.
• 38:38
  Whatever your choice is, you have that choice to make.
• 38:41
  And if you want to be elite, you have to make the correct
• 38:43
  choices. Yeah, yeah.
• 38:44
  And it, and it's an art. Yeah, it's an art.
• 38:46
  There's no, there's no secret sauce.
• 38:49
  And we always talk about what everyone asks, oh, what's the
• 38:52
  number one quality for success or what are the best leader?
• 38:54
  What's the best quality? I'm like, there's no one.
• 38:57
  You can ask 10 people, you're probably going to get six or
• 39:00
  seven different answers. And there's this saying where
• 39:05
  it's it's suffice but not enough, or it it's necessary but
• 39:09
  not enough. And what's that mean?
• 39:11
  OK, you need to be a hard worker.
• 39:14
  Yes, you do. But that's not going to
• 39:16
  guarantee success. You need to have a growth
• 39:18
  mindset, yes. That's not going to guarantee
• 39:22
  success. You need to be open minded, yes.
• 39:26
  Just being open minded isn't going to guarantee success.
• 39:29
  So it's all these characteristics and qualities
• 39:32
  balance that we all create our own individual authentic self.
• 39:35
  You need to take this blend and make it into yours and make it
• 39:40
  work for you. Make a system that works for
• 39:42
  you. And they're all necessary, but
• 39:43
  none of them are enough. You need to be hard working.
• 39:46
  You need to have a growth mindset.
• 39:47
  You need to do all these different things your way and
• 39:50
  make it work for you. I, I think based on everything
• 39:53
  that you've said, though, the biggest take away that I have
• 39:55
  from this conversation is that you also need to not just be
• 40:00
  hungry and this super driven entrepreneur, you need to be
• 40:04
  interested in developing yourself and developing your own
• 40:07
  skill set, right? Because what worked when you
• 40:09
  were an entrepreneur at one level to be able to scale, grow,
• 40:13
  and then eventually, whether it's someday sell it or retire
• 40:17
  or whatever your next step is down the road, it's you need to
• 40:20
  be. Constantly evolving as a leader,
• 40:22
  right? You need to be able to change up
• 40:24
  your style, whether it's hiring on new people or then starting
• 40:27
  to delegate and relinquish some of the control, right?
• 40:30
  So it's like the ability as a leader to really, truly
• 40:34
  transform and evolve as your business transforms and evolves
• 40:37
  is probably one of the best superpowers you can have because
• 40:41
  it's one of the most necessary tools to really be able to work
• 40:44
  with other human beings. Yeah, the one thing that doesn't
• 40:47
  change in our life is change. And if you want, if you want
• 40:50
  growth and you want a different result, you have to be able to
• 40:52
  adapt. You can definitely do the same
• 40:55
  thing all the time. Just don't expect a different
• 40:57
  result, right? Because consistency, right?
• 41:01
  You have to be consistent to be successful.
• 41:03
  It's like, yes, but doing the same thing over and over again
• 41:06
  and expecting a different result, I think a very smart man
• 41:09
  once said that's insanity. So it's kind of the same thing.
• 41:12
  It's like, yes, be consistent, but be able to adapt too.
• 41:14
  And, and it's, you're contradicting yourself
• 41:16
  constantly, right? Be systematic, but evolve, be
• 41:21
  consistent, but be flexible, you know, so it's, it's a delicate
• 41:25
  balance. And that's really the art of
• 41:27
  leadership and the art of self leadership is you have to know
• 41:30
  when, when to adapt, when to adjust.
• 41:33
  Yeah, the art of leadership, that's what it is.
• 41:35
  I love that. So if you can give, I know we're
• 41:38
  not going to give one characteristic of success,
• 41:40
  right? Because I think you proved that
• 41:42
  that does not exist. So if you can give us one take
• 41:45
  away, you would want any listener to have from this
• 41:47
  conversation, right? So entrepreneur, solo
• 41:50
  entrepreneur or whatever it might be, right?
• 41:51
  What would you give them? I think the word of the day is
• 41:53
  going to be intentionality, right?
• 41:55
  Be intentional. You have to have intention and
• 41:58
  direction. You have to see where you want
• 42:01
  to go, you know, And if you don't know where you want to go
• 42:04
  or what you want to do, just pick.
• 42:07
  Just pick something. This is what I want to work
• 42:09
  towards. And then you can always pivot
• 42:10
  and adjust, right? No one says that if you set a
• 42:13
  goal, you have to set out to achieve that goal.
• 42:15
  You can adjust your goal. My goal, my biggest dream in the
• 42:19
  world was to work in the NFL. Well, that changed.
• 42:22
  You know, you get there and you're like, well, maybe this
• 42:24
  isn't what I thought it was. You can adjust and I, I think
• 42:28
  that's the biggest thing is just having intention, have a
• 42:30
  direction. And that's probably the, I would
• 42:33
  say it's probably one of the most important things in life.
• 42:35
  Just having a direction that you're heading in and making
• 42:39
  progress towards that perceived progression is probably one of
• 42:41
  the best feelings and one of the most important things you can do
• 42:44
  for yourself, selfishly, for confidence, for your positive
• 42:48
  self-image, everything. Just have intention and work
• 42:51
  towards it. Make progress, and it's going to
• 42:53
  do wonders for your, your mental health.
• 42:55
  We're in a mental health crisis, right?
• 42:57
  Give everyone a direction and tell them to work towards it and
• 42:59
  then show them how they're getting better and getting
• 43:01
  closer. And I guarantee you we're going
• 43:02
  to have a lot more mentally healthy people.
• 43:05
  Yeah. I love that.
• 43:06
  Be intentional. Be intentional.
• 43:08
  Well, Jamie, this has been, I've learned from you for years,
• 43:12
  listening to whatever you put on content online, in classes, in
• 43:15
  person. I've learned a lot from you.
• 43:17
  I know our listeners will. We can't thank you enough for
• 43:20
  coming on and and sharing all your insight.
• 43:23
  We really, really appreciate it. So thank you so much for coming
• 43:25
  on. Absolutely.
• 43:26
  I appreciate you both and real estate for real life and
• 43:28
  leadership for real life. You got to lead yourself.
• 43:30
  Exactly. Well, thank you.
• 43:32
  This is real Estate for real Life podcast.
• 43:33
  I'm Ryan Wilson. And I'm Courtney Gauchman.
• 43:35
  Thanks for listening. Thank you.