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You're the Bottleneck: Why Business Growth Starts With You · We Built This Brand

• 0:00
  Brad: Most often the problem that the, the client would bring me is,
• 0:03
  "Brad, my, my team, you know, the, the team just isn't performing.
• 0:06
  They're not doing the things that I'm s- I want them to do.
• 0:08
  They, you know, they, they don't have the skills." The… And
• 0:11
  I listen to this whole litany, and then I think, "So the team
• 0:14
  that you hired and that you're training, and you're the one
• 0:19
  holding them accountable, that, that's the team that's broken?"
• 0:24
  Chris: Welcome to We Built This Brand, where we pull back
• 0:26
  the curtain on the people, the ideas, and the sometimes
• 0:29
  challenging processes of building something that matters.
• 0:32
  Today, I'm joined by Brad Farris at Anchor Advisors.
• 0:36
  He's an executive coach with a long history of working with entrepreneurs
• 0:39
  and startups, and quite frankly, this was a incredible conversation.
• 0:44
  Uh, we dive into the challenges of leadership and
• 0:47
  growing a business and entrepreneurship and everything
• 0:51
  in between that comes with building the business.
• 0:54
  And yes, we even talk a little bit of branding along the way.
• 0:57
  So don't worry, there's a little bit of branding and marketing in here, too.
• 1:00
  But I think you'll really like it, and I hope you do just as much as I did.
• 1:03
  So without further ado, here's my conversation
• 1:06
  with Brad Farris from Anchor Advisors.
• 1:13
  Well, Brad, welcome to We Built This Brand.
• 1:15
  Brad: Hey, thanks.
• 1:16
  I'm glad to be here.
• 1:17
  Chris: Yeah, glad to have you.
• 1:18
  Um, we talked a few weeks ago and, um, learned a little bit about what
• 1:22
  you did at Anchor Advisors, and would just love to dive into that today.
• 1:26
  But before we do, I always like to start with, how did you get here?
• 1:30
  Where did you get started?
• 1:31
  Brad: It's a long and winding road, Chris.
• 1:33
  I went to college to be an engineer, and, uh, I love engineering.
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  I, I love s- solving problems and being creative and seeing how, you
• 1:42
  know, within a set of constraints we can, we can get something to work.
• 1:46
  And at some point in my engineering career, the marketing team kind
• 1:50
  of brought me a problem, and they're like, "Hey, can we do this?"
• 1:53
  I'm like, "Great, sure." We did it.
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  We put it in the marketplace.
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  It wasn't a success.
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  And I was thinking, "Man, it's unfortunate that I'm gonna have
• 2:02
  to do the marketing job here, too, 'cause these people are
• 2:05
  obviously, you know, incompetent." This is how engineers think.
• 2:09
  And so I, I wanted to figure out what the marketing
• 2:11
  people did, so I went and hung out with them, and, and in
• 2:14
  order to talk marketing, I had to understand accounting.
• 2:17
  And so I ended up being, like, the nerd that spoke business, or the business
• 2:21
  guy that spoke nerd, depending on which side of that wall you're on.
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  Around that time, the organization I was a part
• 2:28
  of, uh, kind of went on an acquisition spree.
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  We were owned by a billionaire, and the problem with billionaire families is
• 2:35
  that the kids think they get to live at the same lifestyle as their parents.
• 2:40
  Mm-hmm.
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  And so you need exponentially more cash every 25 years.
• 2:43
  Chris: Mm-hmm.
• 2:44
  Brad: So we were buying entrepreneurial businesses that we felt like could
• 2:47
  grow to, you know, put gas in the jets and feed the horses and all that stuff.
• 2:51
  Chris: Yeah, yeah.
• 2:52
  Brad: So they needed someone who spoke nerd, and so I went
• 2:55
  around f- for, for many years e- looking at entrepreneurial
• 2:59
  businesses and, and trying to decide whether they could grow
• 3:03
  and then buy them for the ones that, that we really liked.
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  And that was just fascinating, because when you go to sell
• 3:10
  your business, people care about a lot different things
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  than you care about when you're running your business.
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  And so seeing how entrepreneurs looked at their business
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  and then how investors looked at businesses was one thing.
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  And then, you know, I was there f- for several times when
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  we gave an entrepreneur a really big check, and, like,
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  this is supposed to be the best day of his life, right?
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  He worked his whole life to, to get this payday, and what I
• 3:37
  noticed is that most of them weren't super excited on that day.
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  Like they had, they were letting go of something they really cared about.
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  Chris: Mm-hmm.
• 3:46
  Brad: This was their life's work, and tomorrow they were
• 3:48
  gonna be in charge of the lawnmower and the dishwasher.
• 3:51
  You know, like it, it, it was, it was a,
• 3:53
  it was a mixed blessing for many of them.
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  Uh, at s- at a certain point when the acquisition thing kind of played out,
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  I switched sides of the table and started working with the, the business
• 4:03
  owners to help them to continue to grow their business instead of selling it.
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  But most people sell their business 'cause it gets to a
• 4:12
  size where they just don't know what to do next, right?
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  Like, like, "This is the biggest business I've been, ever been a part of,"
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  or, "I just don't have the leadership capacity to lead this business."
• 4:20
  Chris: Mm.
• 4:21
  Brad: For the last 25 years, I've worked on the entrepreneur side, helping
• 4:25
  them to grow their, their leadership so that they can grow their business.
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  Chris: That's quite the journey.
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  Brad: I told you it was a long and winding road.
• 4:32
  Chris: A long and winding road.
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  And I have so many questions about both sides of that, which I don't
• 4:37
  think are necessarily relevant to this conversation, but I love, I love
• 4:40
  hearing that story because it helps make sense of what you're doing now.
• 4:44
  So let's, let's talk about what you do at Anchor Advisors now.
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  What, what exactly is Anchor Advisors?
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  Brad: We're an executive leadership coaching, um, firm.
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  I work primarily with owners of growing businesses, a lot of
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  creative service businesses, so marketing, advertising, PR, web
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  design, architecture, interior design, those types of businesses.
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  The people who run those businesses largely- Are
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  doing it because they love doing the thing, right?
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  Like building the websites or, or designing houses or whatever it is.
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  And the challenge is that if they keep doing
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  the thing, they can't grow the business.
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  And so helping them to make that transition from being the technical
• 5:30
  operator to being the CEO who's leading, who's, who's building
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  a system so that a group of other people can get the thing done.
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  Chris: I completely feel that so much right
• 5:41
  now- … just as a small business owner.
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  Like, it's, it's hard to, to be in that place of like,
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  I've gotta, I've gotta grow a business, I gotta keep,
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  I gotta love my family, I gotta spend time with them.
• 5:51
  Brad: That's right.
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  Chris: But I also have to get the work done
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  so that I can do those other two things.
• 5:56
  Brad: That's right.
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  Chris: And it's, it's a very challenging place to be, and knowing
• 6:01
  how to grow it, figuring it out, nobody gives you a manual on that.
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  I mean, I, I would say I'm fortunate in that I got my undergrad degree in
• 6:08
  marketing and entrepreneurship, and I actually… It was not just how to start
• 6:13
  a coffee shop, it was how to actually, you know, a lot of it was learning
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  basically what you would need to learn to be in a startup or to be, you know,
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  in a small s- on the, on the early side of a, um, you know, a VC-funded company.
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  And it was cool, it was helpful.
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  Um, but even then, you come out of it and there's so many things.
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  Like, they don't tell you about the, all the
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  interpersonal skills you need to deal with people.
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  And, and when you come out of college, like, you're not gonna be
• 6:38
  that leader unless, unless you're a Mark Zuckerberg or somebody,
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  and I think that those days are probably gone for most people.
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  But, you know, that, that whole, like, wunderkind, you know,
• 6:48
  type s- scenario where you come out just doesn't happen anymore.
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  So, like, learning it as an adult, learning how to deal with
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  all that, like, people are figuring this out for the first time.
• 6:58
  I, it's interesting, I, I've s- we've been a lot in tech, but I've also been
• 7:02
  in the craft beer is what really sprung to mind as you were talking about this.
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  Um, because it's very much a bunch of engineers almo- If you look at a
• 7:12
  lot of the founders, they are engineer backgrounds, and they get out,
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  craft beer's always been their passion, and if you, if you look at
• 7:19
  the basis behind, like, why craft beer is such a draw for engineers,
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  like, it's a fascinating Venn diagram of how all that works together.
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  But they get out, and then they get, you know, they're doing this in the
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  later stage of their career, and then they sell their business and move on.
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  So, like, I've heard this story that you're talking about time and
• 7:37
  time again is where I'm going with this, and it's, it's a challenge.
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  So, how do you, how do you help someone in, in those early phases?
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  Brad: Something that you said really resonated, which
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  is, you know, there's one job that only I can do, which
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  is to be a husband to my wife and parent to my children.
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  After that, I spend, I have to split my time
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  between all of these other roles that I have.
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  But in the company, if I am doing client service, if I'm doing the thing
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  that the company gets paid for, then no one is doing the CEO job, right?
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  No one's gonna step into that role.
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  That's, that's a job that they're gonna leave for me
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  to do, and if I'm not doing it, then I've essentially
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  abandoned the job that is making the company the most money.
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  Chris: Mm-hmm.
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  Brad: Seth Godin has a really interesting, um, distinction
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  that he draws between, um, freelancers and entrepreneurs.
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  And he, he says freelancers are people who sell their
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  time, their creative services, their genius, for money.
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  Entrepreneurs sell other people's time for money.
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  And so if you are the person who's doing the thing, he's like, "It doesn't
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  matter how big your company is, you're a freelancer 'cause you're not really
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  doing the thing that generates the leverage that builds the business."
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  And then to your point, the reason that people tend to do that is that
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  being the CEO is this job that requires a lot of skills that I don't have.
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  Like, I need to figure out how to manage people, and I, I
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  need to figure out how to hire people, and then there's this
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  whole financial piece that I don't really understand, right?
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  And so those are very learnable skills.
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  And so helping the, the, the entrepreneur to, to feel more
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  comfortable in that CEO role, just like I learned that Creative
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  problem-solving didn't just happen with circuits and gears, right?
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  Th- th- there are creative problems to solve with people, too, and
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  people actually are really fascinating, like infinitely fascinating.
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  So the, the creative problem-solving to be done at the CEO level
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  can be just as fulfilling, if not more fulfilling, than, you know,
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  doing the drafting or writing the code or whatever the thing is.
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  Chris: It becomes like a video game, I have found,
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  and that's probably a terrible analogy, but like-
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  Brad: No, it's real
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  … Chris: yeah, for me being a nerd, like, you know, there's, there's a
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  reason, and I had this early on in my business, I, I found myself…
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  This is so nerdy.
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  I found myself being drawn to what they call 4X strategy games, which are
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  like the, the really big, broad, like Europa Universalis is a good example of
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  it, and they're these big, like you're managing a whole country and deciding
• 10:19
  whether to go to war or whether to grow economically and all these things.
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  And like, I found myself being drawn to that, in city-building games and things
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  like that, and I'm like, "Why am I doing this?" And I realized, like, it's
• 10:31
  basically a ga- a business simulation, and it's one that g- gives me sometimes
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  better instant gratification for what I want out of growing a business.
• 10:41
  Brad: Oh, way better.
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  Absolutely.
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  Chris: Yeah, so yeah, that's, that's me on the therapist couch there.
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  Brad: But that, that executive decision-making, like, like that is one level.
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  Chris: Mm-hmm.
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  Brad: The reason that there's so much more, um,
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  immediate feedback in the game is, is people, right?
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  So like in the game, you have, you make a decision,
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  and the m- machine does the thing that you decided.
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  When you're a leader, you make a decision, and then people don't
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  do it, and they have to go find out why aren't they doing it.
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  And like, you know, "Hey, remember we said we were gonna do this?" "Oh, yeah.
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  Yeah, yeah."
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  Chris: Yeah.
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  It's, it's, it's not as fun when, when you can't just say, "Go
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  th- go do this." And I was talking to another friend, um, about
• 11:25
  like how he's using AI in his business, and not to make this an AI
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  conversation, but, but like we, w- I was trying, I was trying to
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  just process with him, like why is this so addictive to founders?
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  Like especially founders, and it's that same thing.
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  It's that video game kind of thing.
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  It's like everything I wanted, I don't have to wait for.
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  I get instant gratification from getting an answer, getting a
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  solution, getting a product built, and I think I have it, and it
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  creates problems, but but it's, it's fascinating to see what it can
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  come up with, and yeah, there's just that, that whole thing there.
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  So, so you start working with people.
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  You start helping them along this road.
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  Um, what do you really like- How do, how do
• 12:07
  you really help people get to that next step?
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  Like, what, what is kind of your approach to getting people to, um, to grow?
• 12:15
  Brad: The- there's sort, sort of two threads to that.
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  One is the business provides the curriculum.
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  You know?
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  I- i- if, if they… If I say just, you know, "How's business?"
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  They're gonna tell me what's going on, and there's plenty of us
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  to work on just from whatever happens to be going on in their day.
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  And that's, that's sort of one level of the game, which is if you think
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  about it like a, a chess player, like, that's the tactics on the board.
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  Do we move this piece?
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  Do we move that piece, right?
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  But the much more powerful level is, is
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  what I call talking about the chess player.
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  So you've got the moves on the board, but then
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  also you have the person playing the chess.
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  And what I've found is we can't build a
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  business bigger than we've grown ourselves.
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  Like, the, the first person that we need to lead is ourselves.
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  And when we build that muscle of leading ourselves and s- and watching our
• 13:08
  decisions and watching how we're thinking and feeling about things, and that
• 13:14
  then helps us to make the, the moves on the board much more effortlessly.
• 13:19
  So, so a great example of that, I've been talking recently
• 13:22
  with a, an ar- a person who owns an architecture firm.
• 13:26
  And in her firm, she is the business development person, right?
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  She's got a lot of people who can draft and do other things
• 13:33
  like that, but she's doing all the business development herself.
• 13:37
  And she has a belief that that's sort of her magic power.
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  Like, she can… She's the one that creates this bond with the, the client.
• 13:47
  Well, if that's true, then this business can't grow, right?
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  If you're the only one that can sell a project, and
• 13:53
  if you're the one creating that bond, then you have to
• 13:57
  stay involved as the project moves along, too, right?
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  It's harder to pass it along.
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  So we've been working on that belief that
• 14:04
  she has by just running some experiments.
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  Like, what if we took two or three leads that are, you know, not a whole
• 14:11
  house redesign, but maybe a kitchen and bath project, and train one of
• 14:16
  your team members to go have that conversation and see what happens?
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  So low stakes kind of things.
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  Let's just try it out and see.
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  And I don't have to convince her that she's wrong.
• 14:26
  I don't have to tell her that this is, you know, "You
• 14:28
  have to do this." She, she can do whatever she wants.
• 14:31
  It's her business.
• 14:32
  But we could try this experiment and see what happens.
• 14:34
  Chris: That whole process is, um, big for a lot of founders.
• 14:39
  People, people don't want to give up working in the business.
• 14:43
  They don't want to give up something they consider themselves integral to.
• 14:46
  I think for myself, with the business we've created, like, I, I feel like
• 14:50
  I'm in a good place where it's like, I'm not always in the best place with
• 14:53
  it, but it's, for the most part, like, I, I trust my team to do their work.
• 14:58
  Like, I can, I can say, "Okay, you guys go off and do this." And, and
• 15:02
  in fact, early on, I ma- forced myself to hire people, forced myself to
• 15:06
  bring people in so that margin was a part of my business, so I knew…
• 15:10
  So it didn't feel like I wasn't giving up part of
• 15:12
  myself or part of my livelihood to bring somebody in.
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  And then as it grew, realizing, okay, this
• 15:18
  takes weight off my shoulders to continue.
• 15:21
  I mean, that's, that's huge.
• 15:22
  But a lot of founders, I mean, especially in the
• 15:24
  consulting or design industries, like yeah, it's hard.
• 15:26
  I mean, podcasting is hard, too.
• 15:28
  You want to make the best product for every client every time.
• 15:31
  And yeah, you got to trust your team to do that, too.
• 15:34
  So I, I totally get that.
• 15:35
  That's a big challenge.
• 15:36
  Brad: There's a math part of it, too, right?
• 15:38
  Like, when, when it's maybe you and an, an assistant or
• 15:41
  you and two people, when you go to hire that third person-
• 15:45
  You're increasing your, your, uh, payroll by 25%, right?
• 15:50
  It's a huge increase, huge increment.
• 15:52
  And now there's a huge amount of work that you need to
• 15:55
  move down to that person to, to, to pay for that leverage.
• 15:59
  So there's a step function in what you need to do to create your business.
• 16:02
  There's a step function in, in your change.
• 16:05
  When you're hiring your 20th person, it's a 5% increase in
• 16:08
  payroll they're probably not taking anything off of your plate.
• 16:12
  They're, y- things are just sort of sliding down the hill.
• 16:16
  And so the h- the first hires are the hardest.
• 16:19
  W- if you can get over those first few, each
• 16:22
  next hire gets easier and easier and easier.
• 16:25
  Chris: Yeah.
• 16:26
  I can, I can identify with that.
• 16:29
  I'll just leave it at that.
• 16:30
  Brad: The impression that most, uh, business owners have is, you know,
• 16:35
  they get to around a million five, maybe two million, and they're
• 16:38
  working really hard, and they're like, "I can't double this, Brad.
• 16:42
  I'm a, I'm… I can't work twice as hard." I'm like, "Exactly.
• 16:45
  Exactly." Yeah.
• 16:46
  "You're gonna work less hard at four or five
• 16:48
  million than you are right now at a million five."
• 16:51
  Chris: Yeah.
• 16:51
  Yeah, you, you wanna continue to distribute that, that work
• 16:56
  out and find ways to get it beyond yourself, and that's,
• 16:59
  that's, I think, the, the nut most people need to crack.
• 17:03
  So, yeah.
• 17:04
  Brad: It's a challenge.
• 17:05
  Chris: So let's talk a little bit about kinda starting…
• 17:08
  I mean, we've talked about getting into the business.
• 17:10
  We've kinda dove off the deep end.
• 17:11
  I, I have a bad habit of doing that, but-
• 17:13
  Brad: It's good habit.
• 17:14
  There's nothing bad about that
• 17:15
  … Chris: but love diving off the deep end.
• 17:17
  But when we, when we talk about getting this business
• 17:19
  started, what made you make that leap to the other side?
• 17:23
  Brad: I was invited to find employment somewhere else.
• 17:26
  Chris: Been there.
• 17:27
  Brad: The dot bomb happened, right?
• 17:29
  Valuations, uh, got really squirrely, and interest rates got
• 17:33
  high, and we just weren't gonna do any more deals, and I had been
• 17:37
  running one of the deal, one of the businesses that we'd bought.
• 17:41
  And, uh, it got to the point where we just needed to hire a CEO that
• 17:46
  was from the industry, and, and there just wasn't a next step for me.
• 17:49
  And at the same time, I kinda had an itch to do something differently.
• 17:54
  I imagined there must be other entrepreneurs out there that, that needed
• 17:58
  the kind of help that I was offering, you know, working for the billionaire.
• 18:01
  And so it was a pretty natural step to, to
• 18:06
  just kind of go out and get something started.
• 18:08
  Chris: Sometimes those thing, those opportunities present themselves, and-
• 18:10
  Brad: Indeed.
• 18:12
  Chris: It's good to, good to take advantage.
• 18:14
  Yeah.
• 18:14
  So, so clearly, I mean, you had a passion for this
• 18:16
  industry, passion for these people as you came into it.
• 18:19
  Um, when, when it started to grow, like, when was that moment when you realized,
• 18:24
  "Okay, this isn't just an in-between thing that I'm using to fill up my…"
• 18:28
  You know, people do that, like, fill up
• 18:29
  their resume until they find something else.
• 18:31
  Like, what was that moment of validation for you like?
• 18:34
  Brad: So when I started, I had, I had two
• 18:37
  kind of tracks that I was running down.
• 18:38
  One was I was gonna do this consulting thing, kinda see how it goes, kind of in
• 18:43
  the back of my mind thinking that one of these people would just hire me, right?
• 18:47
  And then the other option was maybe I'll find one of these
• 18:50
  businesses, and I'll just buy it 'cause, 'cause I had done a bunch of
• 18:53
  acquisitions, and it, it would be really fun to run a business again.
• 18:57
  And I remember there was a certain day when I was like, "You know, I
• 19:01
  haven't looked at a business brokerage site in, I don't know, six months."
• 19:07
  And I stopped looking at job sites, you know?
• 19:11
  And so there was just a place where it wasn't like a turning
• 19:13
  point, it was just a moment where I realized, "No, I think
• 19:16
  this is the thing I'm doing." And it took a long time.
• 19:20
  It probably took three or four years to where I, I was
• 19:23
  like, "No, this is the thing." And, and interestingly,
• 19:27
  about that time is when I started hiring other people, too.
• 19:30
  Like, once I decided that this was the thing I was gonna keep
• 19:33
  doing, I realized that I couldn't do it by myself anymore.
• 19:36
  Chris: So for you, having gone through it on that side, too, 'cause I know a lot
• 19:39
  of folks in your type of business, a lot of times it is just a solo practice.
• 19:43
  But when, when did you get to that threshold for yourself?
• 19:48
  Brad: I actually worked with a coach around that time, because
• 19:51
  I felt like my business was kind of stuck against a plateau.
• 19:55
  And so the, the coach that I brought in, she suggested hiring some people.
• 20:00
  And, you know, I had a, some arguments with her about how would that
• 20:04
  work, and all the same conversations that I have with clients now, right?
• 20:08
  And she convinced me to give it a try, and I actually started
• 20:12
  off hiring two people right away, 'cause I figured it's
• 20:14
  easier to train two people, and that way when one of them's
• 20:18
  terrible, I can fire that person and then still have some help.
• 20:20
  You know?
• 20:21
  We set up a rhythm where I just wouldn't go anywhere by myself.
• 20:25
  If I was going to see a client, whether it was a prospect or,
• 20:28
  or a client we were working with, I would bring someone with me.
• 20:32
  They would be there to hear the conversation that we're having,
• 20:34
  and they'd contribute, too, and then they would go do the homework,
• 20:39
  whatever the homework was, and I would go to the next meeting.
• 20:42
  And so, uh, that was kind of the, the initial way that the business ran.
• 20:48
  Chris: Yeah, and that's, that's good, because they're, they're seeing how you
• 20:51
  talk, how you do things, and they're, they're able to, to pick up on that.
• 20:55
  Brad: Right.
• 20:56
  Chris: I, I always hear people say, "Oh, you gotta hire an assistant first." Did
• 20:59
  you, did you go that route, or did you find, find somebody at a higher level?
• 21:03
  Brad: It's interesting that you say that.
• 21:04
  I did hire an assistant first.
• 21:06
  Um, mostly because, again, my, my coach at the time was like, "Well, track your
• 21:11
  time, Brad. Figure out where you're spending your time." And what we saw is
• 21:14
  that 20% of my time went into scheduling client meetings and prospect meetings.
• 21:19
  Like, it was just a lot of, like, Tetris on the calendar,
• 21:23
  and at that time I was driving to meet people in their
• 21:26
  office, so that, you know, it was j- it was kind of a mess.
• 21:28
  I was like, 20% of my time, I can get a day a week back for 500 bucks a month?
• 21:32
  Like, in.
• 21:34
  I am totally in.
• 21:35
  So I hired a VA and gave up my calendar, and that was phenomenal.
• 21:40
  That was huge.
• 21:41
  Chris: Yeah, I mean, tho- tho- those folks
• 21:43
  can make a big difference in what you're doing
• 21:45
  Brad: It was great.
• 21:46
  Chris: So then you moved on from there.
• 21:47
  What, what about the name, Anchor Advisors?
• 21:50
  I like to say, you know, names are intrinsic to branding.
• 21:53
  This is… We built this brand.
• 21:54
  Um, I'd be remiss if I didn't ask a good branding question.
• 21:57
  So why the name?
• 21:58
  Brad: So when I initially started the business, the business plan was, you
• 22:03
  know, remember, I had been buying businesses from entrepreneurs, and so the
• 22:07
  offer I was making to the marketplace was, "Hey, you're thinking about selling.
• 22:11
  Let's work together for a year.
• 22:13
  I'll help you to get a better valuation 'cause we
• 22:15
  can clean up some of the stuff on your balance sheet.
• 22:18
  We can get rid of Uncle Eddie and, you know, all the things
• 22:21
  that you don't wanna do but are gonna get, make you more money.
• 22:25
  And then when you sell it, I'll just take a piece of the upside."
• 22:29
  And, um, so the anchor in Anchor Advisors
• 22:32
  was, like, the anchor leg of the relay.
• 22:34
  It was like, "This is your last lap.
• 22:36
  Let's do this together." I signed a couple of those deals, worked,
• 22:41
  straightened out the business, was like, "All right, great.
• 22:43
  Now it's time.
• 22:43
  Let's put it on the market." And they're like- Why would I wanna sell it?
• 22:47
  This is a great business.
• 22:48
  Like, you fixed all the problems.
• 22:52
  It was like, so that was how I was getting paid?
• 22:55
  Never mind.
• 22:58
  We're just gonna do this differently from now on.
• 23:02
  Chris: You, you live and learn, right?
• 23:03
  You live and learn.
• 23:03
  Brad: Right.
• 23:04
  Exactly.
• 23:06
  Maybe I should have foreseen that, but whatever.
• 23:10
  Chris: Some- sometimes you can't predict it.
• 23:11
  We, um, you know, we do podcast production, and we've… You know, we, we
• 23:15
  used to sell, like, se- a series up front, and I stopped doing that because
• 23:20
  I realized people were buying it, and then the company would sit on it.
• 23:24
  And then, like, five years later they'd come back and be
• 23:27
  like, "Hey, we still have those 10 episodes with you, right?"
• 23:31
  So not quite the same thing, but a similar, similar scenario of like, oh,
• 23:35
  if I don't do something to structure this better, I'm gonna be in trouble.
• 23:39
  Brad: Yeah.
• 23:39
  Chris: Yeah.
• 23:40
  Yeah.
• 23:40
  So, so then what, what was the pivot after that then?
• 23:42
  Brad: Uh, so I just started helping people
• 23:44
  to, to improve their businesses and grow them.
• 23:46
  Like, that's what they wanted anyway, right?
• 23:48
  And it, it was easy.
• 23:49
  Like, looking for people who were getting ready to sell narrowed my market.
• 23:53
  This just made it, opened up the number of people that I could talk to.
• 23:56
  And so e- one of my clients was a marketing firm, and I said, "Listen,
• 24:01
  we gotta…" Because the logo was, like, handing off the baton.
• 24:04
  Like, everything didn't fit, right?
• 24:06
  And so they redid the logo with this nautical theme, and
• 24:10
  it's still, um, the tagline is, "Own your course." So it's,
• 24:14
  it's about getting more agency, which is what I'm all about.
• 24:18
  And so, like, it fit.
• 24:19
  It's fine.
• 24:19
  And, and trust is the, the underlying thing of the brand.
• 24:24
  It's, it's this green and black, it's kind of a
• 24:26
  high, um, higher-end look but, but built along trust.
• 24:32
  And so the, the name kept, the name still worked.
• 24:35
  There was no reason to change it.
• 24:37
  We just kind of pivoted it around to a different logo.
• 24:40
  Chris: Yeah.
• 24:41
  I mean, I think it, it fits more the, the name itself,
• 24:44
  and the, the everything about that makes a lot more sense.
• 24:48
  Do you… I'm just curious, do you have any
• 24:50
  experience with sailing or nautical-themed things?
• 24:54
  Like, is that a passion or…?
• 24:55
  Brad: I mean, around that time I was reading Patrick O'Brian.
• 24:58
  I don't know if you know
• 24:59
  Chris: his- Yes, yes.
• 25:00
  Brad: So that, that's as, as much sailing as I've done, but it-
• 25:04
  Chris: It's a good book.
• 25:05
  Good books.
• 25:06
  Brad: Yeah, fantastic.
• 25:09
  Chris: To me, that's a deep cut from, like, my past.
• 25:11
  So I'm like, "Oh, my gosh, I haven't heard that name in a while."
• 25:14
  Brad: I know.
• 25:15
  Chris: So then where, where are things for you now?
• 25:18
  Where are you hoping things to go in the future?
• 25:21
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• 25:23
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• 25:52
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• 26:02
  Brad: So in 2019, I pivoted out of consulting and into coaching.
• 26:07
  And what happened there, I, I, I enjoy consulting,
• 26:11
  I enjoy the hands-on and solving problems.
• 26:14
  Um, but sort of i- in the same way the, what you were talking about at your
• 26:19
  business, the thing about consulting is the, the implied deal is that the client
• 26:26
  says, "I have this problem," and you say, "Well, I'm gonna fix it," right?
• 26:30
  Chris: Mm-hmm.
• 26:31
  Brad: But most often the problem that the, the client would bring me
• 26:34
  is, "Brad, my, my team, you know, the, the team just isn't performing.
• 26:38
  They're not doing the things that I'm s- I want them to do.
• 26:40
  They, you know, they, they don't have the skills." The, and
• 26:42
  I listen to this whole litany and then I think, "So the team
• 26:46
  that you hired and that you're training, and you're the one
• 26:51
  holding them accountable, that, that's the team that's broken?"
• 26:54
  Chris: Yeah.
• 26:55
  Touché.
• 26:57
  Brad: And so, uh, again, I ha- and this was another point in which I was
• 27:01
  working with a coach and, and I went to her and I said, "I, I just don't
• 27:05
  wanna have this conversation anymore." She said, "Well, that's coaching.
• 27:08
  Coaching is saying the first thing to fix is you,
• 27:11
  and when you fix you, everything around you changes."
• 27:14
  And I was like, "Yes, I know.
• 27:15
  That's exactly how it works." And she says, "Well, then maybe that's
• 27:18
  what you should sell." So I, I pivoted out of consulting into coaching.
• 27:23
  It's really helped me to sharpen the message that I'm giving to the world.
• 27:27
  And like now if you go to my homepage, it basically says, "When
• 27:32
  you come to the point where you realize that you are the reason
• 27:34
  that your business isn't growing, you should give me a call."
• 27:38
  And that's, that means I don't have to have that conversation anymore.
• 27:41
  People that are coming to me knowing that, that they're the first client.
• 27:46
  And now, um, you know, a significant portion of my clients, I'm
• 27:51
  working with the CEO, but I'm also working with their management team.
• 27:55
  So now we're fixing both problems together.
• 27:57
  So the CEO is changing her behavior, and then we're
• 28:01
  talking to the management team about where their gaps are.
• 28:05
  And so that is, like, now it's come full circle to where
• 28:09
  we're, we're working both with the CEO and with the
• 28:12
  team to close the gaps and move the business forward.
• 28:15
  Chris: I really like your approach when I was looking through
• 28:16
  the website, just how you're, you're, you're very approachable.
• 28:20
  Like, I feel like a lot of these coaches and, and folks that I
• 28:23
  see, sometimes it can feel a little intimidating to reach out or,
• 28:27
  or like, "How am I gonna talk to this guy?" And you seem like,
• 28:29
  "Hey, let's just have a conversation and see where this goes.
• 28:32
  Like, I'm not gonna pressure you into anything.
• 28:34
  Like, let's just see if I can help.
• 28:35
  Let's see if we can do some things." And like, it, for my personality and a lot
• 28:39
  of other entrepreneurs, I think that's really helpful to know that they can test
• 28:42
  the waters versus having to commit to, you know, a, you know, $100,000-a-year
• 28:48
  training course that's gonna meet in a cohort every Friday at 6:00 AM.
• 28:53
  You know?
• 28:53
  Like, that can be difficult for some people, and that, that's a lot
• 28:56
  of commitment up front versus, "Hey, let's just see how it goes."
• 28:59
  Brad: One of the things that I'm sort of, uh, known for fr- by my
• 29:04
  clients is that I, I say that all sales come in conversations, right?
• 29:09
  You don't sell anything to anybody you're not having a
• 29:11
  conversation with, especially in, in professional services.
• 29:14
  And so whatever marketing we're doing, the goal
• 29:19
  of that marketing is to start a conversation.
• 29:23
  And this is one of the things I, I love about email marketing,
• 29:26
  is that I can send an email out to thousands of people, and
• 29:29
  when they hit reply, we're in a one-to-one conversation.
• 29:33
  And so the end of every one of my emails is a question, and a
• 29:38
  surprising number of people hit reply and answer that question.
• 29:42
  And now we're in a conversation, right?
• 29:44
  And that conversation might be, "You know, that's a really great an- let's get
• 29:48
  on the phone and talk about that," and now we're in a, in a sales conversation.
• 29:53
  But, but whatever it is that I'm doing, the goal
• 29:56
  of that is to start conversations with people.
• 29:59
  Chris: I think that's a great position on it too, 'cause that's, that's
• 30:02
  all you really can do, um, is just try to get that conversation, try to
• 30:06
  have that first talk, and a lot of times things naturally flow from there.
• 30:10
  Whether they become a client or not, you at least have the conversation.
• 30:13
  Brad: M- my current coach, one of the things that she says all the time
• 30:16
  is, uh, "I talk to people all day long. Some people pay me, some people
• 30:20
  don't." It, it's hard to know wha- wha- whether from the first conversation
• 30:25
  or the second conversation if it makes sense for us to work together.
• 30:29
  So just having more conversations leads to more clients.
• 30:32
  That's kinda the way it works.
• 30:35
  Chris: Do you have a, a specific strategy around trying to
• 30:39
  get these conversations, or is it just, "Hey, if I put myself
• 30:41
  out there, the business comes in and we do it that way"?
• 30:45
  Brad: Pre-pandemic I met a lot of people out at events and things like that.
• 30:51
  Uh, and would, would create my own events where I would invite people
• 30:55
  to, and, and whether that was just a lunch with four or five people that
• 30:58
  I think should know each other or, you know, a workshop of some kind.
• 31:02
  Uh, and then obviously the pandemic changed that, and so there were a
• 31:06
  lot of online places where I would meet people and have those same kind
• 31:09
  of conversations, whether it's a, you know, a, a Slack that's full of,
• 31:13
  of agency owners or some kind of forum or, or, uh, online discussion
• 31:19
  that has people in it that are asking these kinds of questions.
• 31:22
  Now that I, I'm, you know, whatever this is, year
• 31:25
  of our Lord 2026, I'm going back to meeting people.
• 31:29
  Like, I really enjoy meeting people face-to-face, and finding some venues
• 31:34
  where people are just having the kinds of conversations that I want to be in.
• 31:38
  And so, uh, going out and meeting people and getting to know
• 31:43
  them is fun for me, and so I'll just do that as much as I can.
• 31:47
  Chris: That's a great way to do it.
• 31:48
  I'm finding that to be useful these days.
• 31:51
  Um, and it, it's weird because we, we did, like, I
• 31:53
  think there's this hesitancy 'cause I, I m- I help run a
• 31:57
  American Marketing Association chapter here in Knoxville.
• 32:00
  I won't go into all the details, but it's a
• 32:01
  challenge to get people to come out to things still.
• 32:04
  And so, like, you, you start to think, oh, well, nobody's gonna
• 32:07
  wanna do things, but then if it's the right thing, everybody's there.
• 32:11
  You know, um, down the street from a great bar, and everybody… Like, you,
• 32:15
  you go there during the World Cup right now, it is packed during games.
• 32:19
  So, like, people are getting out and doing things,
• 32:21
  it's just are they doing the things that you wanna do?
• 32:23
  And I think people's priorities have shifted because they realize
• 32:27
  that all those luncheons they were going to for weeks on end
• 32:30
  or months on end, you know, just to, just to do to get out of
• 32:33
  work- Mm … um, don't really add any value to their lives.
• 32:37
  Um, or, you know, they might want to stay in their yoga pants at home.
• 32:40
  I, I totally get that, you know?
• 32:42
  Like, it's, it's tough to get, you know, to get dressed up
• 32:46
  nice and come out, um, when you could be at home doing the work
• 32:49
  and, you know, nobody has to see you dressed the way you are.
• 32:53
  Brad: It's also though, I think it's an interesting filter.
• 32:56
  Chris: Mm-hmm.
• 32:57
  Brad: Because the people that have taken the eff- or to get
• 33:00
  dressed and get out and, and meet some other people, those are
• 33:04
  more often the type of people that w- want to work with me.
• 33:07
  They're, they're… You know, what I always say is I would, I can
• 33:11
  help people- Who are gonna be successful whether they work with
• 33:14
  me or not, much more than people who are n- you know, maybe on a
• 33:18
  not so successful trajectory and we need to turn things around.
• 33:21
  So I'm looking to meet people that are already out on the way to their success,
• 33:27
  and, and the people that are showing up to those events are often those people.
• 33:31
  Chris: So what does the future look like?
• 33:33
  N- not broadly speaking, of course.
• 33:36
  Brad: It's a tricky question in 2026, isn't it?
• 33:39
  Chris: Yeah, I know.
• 33:40
  Brad: No, I think that coaching, like, th- the thing that's interesting
• 33:43
  to me about coaching is that it's an intensely human experience.
• 33:47
  Listening to someone, uh, is for many people indiscernible
• 33:52
  from love And so I, I just wanna do more of it.
• 33:57
  And, and I don't really see a lot changing about it,
• 34:00
  uh, other than, you know, the sizes of the companies
• 34:03
  that I'm working with are getting a little bit bigger.
• 34:05
  There's definitely, the CEOs that I'm working with have different pressures,
• 34:09
  whether it's private equity pressures or, or other types of investor pressures.
• 34:13
  That kind of stuff is changing.
• 34:14
  But, um, but that's not a lot different from
• 34:17
  the acquisition work that I did 20 years ago.
• 34:20
  And so, yeah, I, I think some of the problems are shifting,
• 34:24
  but the actual work to be done is pretty much the same.
• 34:27
  Chris: And again, I don't, I don't wanna dive into AI too much, but
• 34:32
  there, there is this, this pattern that I have noticed, um, 'cause as a
• 34:36
  kid, my dad worked for AT&T, um, or Bell South back in the day, actually.
• 34:40
  D- deep cut there, too.
• 34:42
  Um, but he worked for Bell South, and I remember g-
• 34:44
  as a kid, going into his office and seeing a computer.
• 34:48
  And, you know, as I got older and, and learned more
• 34:50
  about the history of all that, like, there was a lot of
• 34:52
  panic around, oh, we're gonna have desktop computers?
• 34:55
  Oh, we're gonna have laptops?
• 34:56
  Eh, you know, productivity's gonna explode,
• 34:59
  and we're not gonna have to work as much.
• 35:00
  And I'm like, I'm sitting here now going, "I've
• 35:03
  heard this story before. It's the same old song."
• 35:07
  Brad: It's the same story.
• 35:09
  And some things did change.
• 35:10
  You know, in the '80s, we had 15 secretaries in our company.
• 35:15
  That, that, that company doesn't have any secretaries now, right?
• 35:17
  Like, so there are things that are gonna change, but
• 35:20
  yeah, w- uh, the infinite leisure thing is bananas.
• 35:24
  I mean, the people that are selling that are
• 35:25
  selling you that because they want you to use AI.
• 35:27
  I mean, that's, it's in their interest for us to believe that.
• 35:30
  But that seems very unlikely to me.
• 35:32
  Chris: But when you talk about some of the same challenges and things,
• 35:34
  like, it does feel like it's a different song, but it's the same melody.
• 35:38
  Brad: Yeah.
• 35:39
  Chris: It's kinda like the same thing going on,
• 35:40
  so that makes total sense for where you're at.
• 35:43
  Brad: The reason we keep talking about it even though we say we're
• 35:45
  not gonna talk about it is that it is changing a lot of things.
• 35:49
  Like, it, I spend a lot of time with clients talking about how AI is changing
• 35:55
  not just the work that's being done, but their relationship with the workers.
• 35:58
  Because to your point, they're chatting with AI about problems,
• 36:02
  and so there, some of the problems that would have bubbled up in
• 36:06
  the past, people are, are using AI to try to solve that problem.
• 36:10
  And I mean, great, there's some efficiency in that, but when I
• 36:14
  don't hear about the problems that are happening in the field
• 36:17
  or learning is happening in these little s- uh, bubbles all
• 36:21
  over the place, that's not necessarily great for the company.
• 36:24
  So finding a way to, to aggregate that learning and share it around and
• 36:29
  validate it to make sure it's legal and, you know, ethical and doing the thing
• 36:33
  that we want it to do That is a different challenge that's arising with it
• 36:38
  Chris: Absolutely.
• 36:39
  And, I mean, to that point, I mean, I, I can point to, um, I think it's the
• 36:43
  owner of Tencent who, um, I think that's the name of the guy, who, who had this
• 36:48
  big bout with this software developer, um, who's making the game Subnautica
• 36:52
  Two, and he put, he put all these, he put all these benchmarks for them
• 36:56
  thinking, "Oh, they're never gonna hit this," and they blew it out of the water.
• 36:59
  Pun intended, if you know Subnautica.
• 37:01
  Brad: Yeah, yeah.
• 37:02
  Chris: He blew it out of the water, and it's a great game.
• 37:04
  And, um, you know, everybody's excited about it, and, you know, the, he,
• 37:09
  he was like, "Oh, crap, I've gotta pay these guys something silly like
• 37:13
  250 million a piece." And he's like, "How do I get out of this?" And
• 37:16
  he goes to AI, and he chats about it, and he never consults a lawyer.
• 37:19
  Brad: Yes, I remember.
• 37:20
  I did see this.
• 37:22
  Chris: It's wild.
• 37:23
  Brad: I can't remember his name, but the, he was one
• 37:25
  of the founders of Uber, was chatting with ChatGPT and,
• 37:29
  and decided that he invented a new branch of physics.
• 37:31
  You know, like-
• 37:33
  … Chris: a
• 37:33
  Brad: lot of crazy things can happen if you're stuck in that bubble.
• 37:37
  Chris: There's a great YouTuber that I followed named Eddy Burback,
• 37:40
  and he did a video where he let AI lead him into ps- psychosis.
• 37:44
  Not really, but, like, he just followed everything it suggested for,
• 37:47
  like, a month, and he goes down an insane rabbit hole with that.
• 37:51
  Um, and it's just hilarious, and it's like, it's, it's funny, but
• 37:54
  at the same time, there are people that are doing that right now.
• 37:57
  Brad: 100%.
• 37:58
  And it's not… Before AI, people did it with, you know, library books or,
• 38:03
  or social media or, I mean, it, it's, this is just a thing that people do.
• 38:08
  But we can do it much more efficiently now.
• 38:10
  Chris: Golly, I'm really doing a deep cut today.
• 38:13
  A podcast I love, um, called Hardcore History with Dan Carlin.
• 38:17
  Um, he has an episode, I, I even went back
• 38:20
  and bought it because I loved it so much.
• 38:21
  Four hours long, and it's, it's called, um, it's called The
• 38:25
  Prophets of Doom, and it's about the town of Munster and the Sie-
• 38:29
  I think they call it, like, the Siege of Munster or something.
• 38:32
  And it was, like, right after the Protestant Reformation when
• 38:35
  everybody was like, "Oh, I can read the Bible and make my own
• 38:37
  decisions on the Bible now." I mean, it's kind of the same thing, not-
• 38:42
  Brad: I did my own research
• 38:43
  … Chris: I did my own research, and I came to the conclusion
• 38:45
  the world's ending, so we're gonna take over this town.
• 38:49
  So yeah, it's, it's wild.
• 38:51
  It's, it's a wild place, and, and I, and I bring all that up, and I'm,
• 38:53
  I'm referencing all this not just to digress but because, like, when
• 38:56
  you're a leader, that stuff, like, that can make or break your business.
• 39:01
  So, like, I'm sure you're having conversations
• 39:03
  about, okay, let's talk you off the ledge here.
• 39:05
  Claude said to do that, but is Claude a
• 39:06
  real person, or is Claude a word predictor?
• 39:09
  Brad: Does it have your best interest in mind?
• 39:12
  Does it know you have children?
• 39:13
  Chris: Absolutely.
• 39:15
  I can help you with 20 things today.
• 39:16
  Brad: Exactly.
• 39:19
  Yeah, it's an interesting time, uh, to be alive, and, but I think
• 39:23
  it's a really fun time to be a coach because what I'm seeing is
• 39:27
  that some of the overhang from the pandemic and the years, you know,
• 39:31
  the, the disaster years that kind of followed- People are, have
• 39:35
  capitulated, and it's like we're not waiting for things to get better.
• 39:38
  We're just gonna make our lives better as, in the world that we are living in.
• 39:42
  And so my job as a coach is to stand in the, in the
• 39:46
  land of possibility and invite my clients to be there.
• 39:49
  And I just see people are in that mode right now where
• 39:53
  that's what they're looking for, that's the thing that
• 39:55
  they want, is to create more possibility for themselves.
• 39:58
  And, you know, that's, that's like being a kid in a candy store for me.
• 40:02
  Chris: It's a cool place to be.
• 40:04
  Um, I think that, you know, another thing that's probably helped,
• 40:07
  helped your industry, or the side of what you do to a degree too,
• 40:10
  is that people are really more open and honest about their own
• 40:13
  mental health and about the, the help that they need and things.
• 40:16
  Um, I know I'm as, as I've grown older, it's become more
• 40:19
  prevalent to be like, "Oh, I need to go seek a counselor
• 40:22
  for that," or, "I, I need to go get therapy," you know?
• 40:24
  Like, it's not the taboo that it used to be.
• 40:27
  Brad: That's helpful for me, because with clients, like I, I am not a therapist.
• 40:31
  I'm not trained in that.
• 40:32
  I don't have the insurance, right?
• 40:34
  And so, uh, I have one client, I see her at 10:00, and
• 40:38
  then she sees her tw- her therapist at noon, and we-
• 40:41
  we're very clear, like that's a 12:00 problem, you know?
• 40:44
  Like-
• 40:44
  Chris: That's a good point.
• 40:45
  Brad: And so h- having a way to like separate that out and, and know what-
• 40:50
  what's for this hour and what's for that next hour is really helpful.
• 40:53
  Chris: Well, Brad, as we wrap up, always love to ask this question.
• 40:57
  I know, um, you know, it's, it's a branding question, and,
• 41:01
  and you may, you may be prepared for it, you may not be.
• 41:03
  But always like to ask this one, which is
• 41:06
  what brand do you admire the most right now?
• 41:08
  Brad: Hmm.
• 41:09
  That's a really good question.
• 41:10
  For many years, Apple would've been like the snap answer, right?
• 41:15
  Mm-hmm.
• 41:15
  You know, everyone believes that they're way
• 41:17
  behind on AI, and certainly Siri is terrible.
• 41:19
  But the thing that I love about Apple is that they're kind of playing the long
• 41:24
  game, and they've built this hardware where you can run local AI, and it, this
• 41:29
  whole thing may come around to being that they were ahead of the game all along.
• 41:33
  So maybe, maybe that's the, the brand that I admire.
• 41:36
  But in the, in the professional services space, boy, that's tricky.
• 41:41
  The, again, the, the, the leader in the clubhouse was always Goldman
• 41:45
  Sachs, 'cause they had this incredible values culture that they led from.
• 41:50
  Um, but one of the challenges when, when a lot of the
• 41:54
  professional services firms went from being partnerships to
• 41:57
  being publicly held is that those values kind of dissipated.
• 42:02
  And, um, so I don't have a good- icon in professional services right now
• 42:08
  Chris: That's okay.
• 42:08
  I, I think Apple's a, a really good example of, you know, where, where
• 42:14
  branding is, you know, really key to what they do, and it's, it's everything.
• 42:19
  And they, I think they… I, I kind of wonder if one day we'll
• 42:22
  learn that the internals of that, that, that AI conversation
• 42:25
  was like, "If we put this out here, we're gonna look terrible.
• 42:28
  Like, we- we've already, we've already been dumb enough
• 42:30
  to put this out, but oh my gosh." And yeah, I don't know.
• 42:34
  Like, it's, it's either that or they, yeah, like
• 42:35
  you said, I think they are playing the long game.
• 42:37
  Um, so it'll be interesting to see what comes of that.
• 42:40
  I kind of wonder if it's kind of like the, you know, I, I don't think
• 42:43
  it's gonna be a lasting part of Tim Cook's legacy with the company, but
• 42:47
  it is kind of the last bit of what he's doing, and if you look at what's
• 42:50
  coming up, like I'm really excited for what I- where Apple's headed.
• 42:53
  Brad: Apple's a black box, so we can cast
• 42:56
  whatever story we want onto them, right?
• 42:58
  But one of their values is privacy.
• 43:01
  Like, that's one of their differentiators.
• 43:03
  And the frontier models and the cl- the way that they're, the
• 43:07
  data all ends up in the cloud isn't very privacy friendly.
• 43:11
  And you know, again, talk about a story we've been through before,
• 43:16
  Facebook, um, I don't think we all want our data to end up in a cloud.
• 43:20
  And so waiting until they had a way to do things with privacy
• 43:25
  in mind, like I said, it might, it might all come around.
• 43:28
  Chris: Well, Brad, thank you so much.
• 43:30
  This has been awesome chatting with you.
• 43:32
  Where can people find out more about you,
• 43:35
  connect with you, um, and all those good things?
• 43:38
  Brad: I mean, the best place to go is to anchoradvisors.com.
• 43:41
  All of my writing is there.
• 43:43
  You, you can sign up for a newsletter.
• 43:45
  If you go to anchoradvisors.com/self-leadership-assessment, and I'm sure that
• 43:51
  Chris will throw that in the show notes for you, there's a little 10 question
• 43:55
  assessment that helps you to determine where your self-leadership could use
• 44:00
  a, you know, where it's strong and maybe where it could use some development.
• 44:03
  And, uh, that might be a great place to start if, if this
• 44:07
  is the first time you're encountering this information.
• 44:10
  Chris: Great.
• 44:10
  Well, Brad, thank you so much for coming on We Built This Brand.
• 44:13
  Brad: Yeah.
• 44:14
  It's fun to be here.
• 44:14
  Thanks.
• 44:15
  Chris: Absolutely.
• 44:16
  You're welcome.
• 44:17
  Thank you for checking out this episode of We Built This Brand.
• 44:20
  Don't forget to like, follow, and subscribe on your player of choice.
• 44:24
  You can keep up with the podcast on our website, webuiltthisbrand.com.
• 44:28
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• 44:32
  sure to tell all your friends about it so we can continue to build this brand.