Latest / Beyond The Trailhead / Why Small Outdoor Brands Struggle to Grow Online | Beyond the Trailhead Podcast Ep. 34

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Why Small Outdoor Brands Struggle to Grow Online | Beyond the Trailhead Podcast Ep. 34 · Beyond The Trailhead

• speaker-0: All right, everyone, welcome back to Beyond the Trailhead. We've got an incredible guest for you this week. This is a little bit of a different twist. ⁓ we have instead of a product, ⁓ we have more of a service-based ⁓ company here. ⁓ we have Becca Whitney, ⁓ with and then Becca, I'm gonna butcher it, but it's ⁓ ecoteric right go it's e say it again for me. I always say Ecoteric marketing. and so I just wanted to have her on. She does a lot of great things that we were talking before we got on about. speaker-1: Ecoteric marketing. speaker-0: ⁓ marketing and website content, social media stuff. And wanted to get her on to talk about what it is that ⁓ can kind of help ⁓ small brands, even large brands have marketing ⁓ teams or social media teams and stuff like that, but how you can kind of get into that space. So Becca without further ado, I guess ⁓ thank you so much for being on. I appreciate it. speaker-1: Yeah, I'm so excited to be here. speaker-0: ⁓ so yeah, so go ahead and just tell everybody ⁓ what it is that you do, how you got into the space, ⁓ and then a little bit more about yourself. speaker-1: Yeah. ⁓ so I my I run ecoteric marketing. It is pretty much just me. Every once in a while I'll hire on contractors to help us with some stuff. ⁓ but I create ⁓ full marketing systems for brands that don't have an in-house team. I've just noticed, you know, working with brands like they have a website person, an email marketing person, and a social media person, and nothing looks the same and nothing's congruent. And so just having you know, just like someone who's doing the strategy and then is able to really take control of all those little aspects of marketing. And then I kind of I want to eventually like send my clients off with everything that they have so they can like keep repeating that ⁓ without me. So that's kind of what I do. speaker-0: Okay. What's your background? Like, how did you even think about I want to do this? Like ⁓ that's my my favorite part is hearing like, what was that aha moment where, like, you know what? I'm gonna do this. speaker-1: Yeah, so actually my whole story is I was living in I well I w was living in a cargo trailer. So I was full time in a cargo trailer. I had a remote job that was like very flexible, very stable, and we were a year and a half in and I just was not happy. And so I was doing ⁓ that was still marketing and it was social media and it was for an interior designer. And I was just like, okay, I need to get out of this. I don't have anything else lined up. I still want to live on the road. So I can't get like a traditional job. Yeah. And so yeah, I quit my job and I had no idea how we I was gonna make money to stay on the road, but I was like, I'm already here. We're gonna do it. And ⁓ so yeah, my first client kind of just fell in my lap. And then my second client was a friend of hers. And because I was able because I was already like living on the road, I knew what I was doing, I knew how to like you know, save money in little areas and we weren't paying rent. So like my my like how much I needed was very, very low. And so I think that was really how I got so many clients was being like dirt cheap in the beginning. And I mean, like I didn't know exactly what I was doing. So I'm like glad that I wasn't charging like higher prices. Yeah. ⁓ and when I say I didn't know what I was doing, I more mean like I didn't know how to do packages in that way. And I didn't know like what businesses really needed because I just knew what this interior designer needed and I knew that I was good at providing what she had. ⁓ so yeah, I kind of just jumped into it. And ⁓ so me and my husband were on the road for four years total. And we've been in Steamboat Springs for the last almost three years. And so I went full time with the business, like made it a business instead of just freelancing last year. speaker-0: ⁓ cool. ⁓ so I think you said a really good point there is that like ⁓ w when I started doing photography, same thing. Like I I I was doing photos and I knew how to do it, but I didn't know how to do the business side of it, the packaging and and everything else. And so I would do I would get all these clients and I would do them for for dirt cheap, sometimes even just for free, just because I wanted to get my foot in the door. And then once I started it, I would s tell people the same thing is like you don't want to be like the group on ⁓ company where you give a discount and then forever on you're always known as the discount company. Right. Is ⁓ I would tell people I'm like it's easier to do free and then start charging what you need to charge versus charging like really, really cheap prices. And then those friends or those, you know, people I always they'll tell their friends that hey, they'll do it for this. You know, even if you they tell you, even if you tell them, hey, don't tell Don't tell them I'm going to do it for this price. And they're not your best friend. So they're still going to whisper to that person and be like, hey, this person did it for X amount of dollars. So if you just tell them this, they'll do it for that. ⁓ and so it it's great that you're doing a lower point, and then you're like, once you get it locked in, you're like, okay, now I can charge this because you you figure it out. I think even people that have products, it's the same way. You know, you're you'll see some companies they'll always have a discount. And you're just always waiting for it. It's like that Bed Bath and Beyond thing where you always have that 20% coupon. And you're never gonna buy something from that place unless you have that 20% coupon. So that's a completely side rant from what you just said, but ⁓ so your your clients that you do, is it mostly I'm a I'm I'm assuming and I kind of know it's it's mostly outdoor space stuff. So how did you go, hey, I'm gonna go with the outdoor space as opposed to since you were doing interior design stuff. stuff with that company, how did you go, Hey, I'm gonna do the outdoors. speaker-1: You know, it's kind of funny because there there's then so many phases to, you know, and I said I just made it an LLC last year, even though I've been freelancing for five years. So, you know, basically when I very first started, I mean, I was grabbing anyone and everyone. Like I had a restaurant, I had a little natural store, I had a glue gene free bakery. Like it was kind of just like anyone was like if they wanted to give me money, I was like hyped about it. Yeah. ⁓ and then kind of as I got like a little bit more established and I was like, okay, I feel like I really understand how to do packaging a little bit more. I understand how to talk to my clients a little bit more. I really wanted to switch to like those brands that are like saving the world, you know, and I use a lot of like eco conscious products, like ⁓ you know, I have shampoo bars and conditioner bars instead of like bottled soaps and That took me a long time to like find things I liked. so yeah, I really dove into that world and I I worked with this incredible company. So basically, like their goal was to get plastic out of schools, like all schools, everywhere. ⁓ but they started small. And, you know, I wrote this like, you know, I spent so long writing this like awesome blog. I was so excited about it. I sent it to them and they were basically like, you don't know the scientific details enough. And I like kind of took a step back and I was like, okay, that's true. I'm not a sustainability expert. I don't really have that consulting like background as far as that goes. So I was like, okay, who would really love my expertise? And I'm excited about what they're doing. And, you know, they care about the environment, but it's not like, you know, they're like gung ho need to know everything. And so like the outdoor industry kind of like, I don't know how I didn't get that. first. And you know, so yeah. So then I kind of landed on the outdoor industry and so many of these companies just like they're like, yeah, I love the environment. I'm doing all these good things, but I don't know how to share that. And even, you know, not buying from a huge manufacturer reduces emissions so much. So like even just having those like little cottage brands, ⁓ you know, really helps. speaker-0: Yeah. Yeah. No, that's I never even thought about it that way. Like if you have a cottage brand, a lot of times people are making at home versus all the carbon footprint of shipping, shipping, shipping, shipping between different factories to make large batches and stuff like that. So ⁓ that's that's an interesting look at it. So you started doing the outdoor space. So what are the things that if if someone's listening and they're going, Okay, what exactly ⁓ does Becca offer and do other companies offer that do you know, social or website, what are the kind of the stages or what are the things that you offer specifically? speaker-1: Yeah, and I before we go into that, I kinda wanted to share that, you know, I am like such a generalist and that's kind of how I got to where I am today. Cause like, you know, in my like I have friends who like all they do is climb and I'm like, ⁓ I'll climb this weekend and then I'm gonna go backpacking next weekend and then we're gonna go mountain biking and then we're gonna hike and then like let's just float down the river, you know, in tubes. So you know, it's kind of funny because I was always like, ⁓ I wish I just you know, everyone says like Jack of all trades, master and none. And I was like, ⁓ I feel that like so hard. Like I'm a master and nothing. And, you know, I put that into like that's kind of how I work my marketing. And I was like, ⁓ this is such like I need to become a master at something. That's what everyone's telling me. And then I was kind of like, wait a second, this whole generalist attitude is actually making it so I can create a whole marketing system for people. So, you know, we start with the strategy and you know, there's Branding, branding's a big word. but the way that I kind of work on branding, I more call it like identity messaging strategy, which you know, isn't as easy as branding. But so basically just everything behind the brand in terms of messaging, like and a little bit, you know, because you have to bring in a little bit of photos. So, you know, like I'll create a mood board for people, but then that's really more like the feeling that we're going for and the messaging we'll go for. I'll talk about like, you know, what we What we can talk about, what we shouldn't talk about, ⁓ what's expected of a brand who says they're eco conscious, you know, because a lot of companies are these just these little founders that they're like, I care about this, but if you don't know something different, you don't really know. So like even just if you're sending, you know, your t-shirts that are supposed to be eco-friendly and all this stuff in a plastic mailer, like there's gonna be a disconnect there. Yeah. And usually you don't know it. You're just like your customer gets it and doesn't say anything and then You're kind of like, I don't get why I'm not growing. so yeah, we like start with that strategy and that, you know, really intense like message strategy. And I keep wanting to say branding, but I'm trying to stop myself. ⁓ and then we kind of move into adding that organic social. And then from there we layer on top the email marketing and the blog writing. And then once all those things are kind of working together, we'll throw ads in. And I will some people will convince me to add the ads in early because they're like, I just wanna get website traffic. And sometimes that is good because then they can see exactly what's broken instead of me being like, Hey, I think it's this and they're like, I don't know about that. So then they get to actually see like, you know, I am saying what I'm I am saying like what's actually broken and not just hanging off with stuff. speaker-0: Yeah. ⁓ interesting. So so that brings a good question to me then. Is ⁓ I feel like and I and correct me if I'm completely wrong, but I feel like a lot of people will come to someone like you when they're in desperate need as opposed to proactively doing it so that they can start their business. You know what I mean? Like they're like, Man, I don't have enough traffic. I'm not getting leads and and everything else. People aren't buying my products. And so they're like, okay, I need all this marketing as opposed to I create a business. I know I need someone like you. And let's start it out the right way. Do you find it it's that way? Is it more more people are like desperately like, hey, I need like I need numbers now as opposed to they just started a business and and they think, or how would we push someone to say, you've started your business before it gets bad, start doing these things now? Does that make sense? speaker-1: Yeah, and and it's so hard because like, you know, I I know these founders. Like they this is a passion project that has become like a job. You know, they're not Yeah. Most of them aren't starting off with like a Kickstarter or a big investment behind them. So they are like doing all these things like scrapply, which, you know, I'm I'm totally for. Like if you can't afford all the big things, then don't do it. Just do the little things. but as you're saying, like It does sometimes we get in a little too deep into DIY. ⁓ and you know, it's like, you know, I had this one client who he was paying like five hundred dollars a month to MailChimp and not using it because you know, it was like always on the back burner that he was like, Okay, I'm gonna start using this, but he was already paying for it. And, you know, companies also do the opposite where they're like, Okay, I'm not gonna pay this until I need it. ⁓ and then they just don't have those flows set up and they're just really, you know, just putting money on the table because you know, it's one of those things where if you're looking if someone's looking to buy, they're gonna find your website and then, you know, if it's hard to go through or they're confused, they're gonna go to someone else's website. Yeah. So it's kinda like you're doing some of the work for a different company all. speaker-0: Yes. No, that's good. It's almost like if you don't have your ducks in a row, you're almost it's bad for you, but it's good for the other company because you're now going, Okay, I'm this other company makes it so much easier. So now, you know, so they need someone like you to come in and say, Okay, hey, let's do this. I think what's that old adage they say where it like you need to be seen at least five times before someone really ⁓ remembers you as a brand and as a company. So that way when they 'cause I know when I would I would post stuff for ⁓ my company and you know w again I I do weddings ⁓ as well and corporate stuff but with the wedding side of it, it would be that social media aspect. People see it and then they finally get engaged, you know, and then they they are like, ⁓ I know Craig and Njung are going are the ones that I've always seen. So then they come to us versus if I just post once and they've only seen me once, they don't remember us, right? ⁓ And so having that consistency of seeing them online. I think that's why people have to be proactive at the beginning. And like you said, most people are just, it's their passion project, right? They're a cottage brand and they're just doing something in their garage or in their basement or in their living room. And they love the product. They just don't know how to get it out there to the masses. And they and it's a a lot of times it's such a great idea, right? That you're like, ⁓ my gosh, we got to get this to everybody. But we just don't know how to get it out there. So what would you say that ⁓ the raw social aspect of it plays a bigger role than say ⁓ like normal marketing? Like I I've done videos for a brand before where we had to do a UGC style video, right? It's just my wife and I cooking and stuff like that, versus I had to do like a a regular, it was another, it was an ad style one, but it still kind of had to look user generated, but it was me filmed with a professional camera instead of my phone and it looked all cool and stuff like that. But for like it didn't perform nearly as well as the UGC video that my wife and I I did. So long long question to, you know, what what's what's the number one that people should be doing first? speaker-1: And you know, this one is well, okay, number one that people should be doing first. I would definitely say, like, even if you do something very scrappy as far as like messaging identity, and maybe you just keep adding to that. Like, you know, and one of those things is you're not gonna know what you're saying that you don't like until you start doing it. And so it's kind of like that, like start before you're ready. And I mean, that's you know what a lot of these people did already. But, you know, this whole marketing and social media world is so different. And, you know, ⁓ what I really I wanna push my brands to do so much is that like behind the scenes, ⁓ you know, really them talking to the camera, all of that stuff. But so many people are not comfortable with that. Yeah. And so, you know, and I don't, you know, it's one of those things where I'm like, okay, if you want to grow on Instagram, we're gonna have to do this. But if your goal like isn't like if you're not there yet and you're not willing to do that, that's totally okay. We can kind of build in these other ways. And, you know, there are there are other videos that are performing well on Instagram still. ⁓ you know, like voiceovers where you can still see the face or what people are doing. and yeah, there's there's a lot of things that we can kind of do to get around it. But I mean the quickest way to grow on social right now is like talking to the camera and showing people your face because that's What they want to see. speaker-0: Yeah. There's there's a there's a woman on on social that I've just started following and I just love it is she makes rope art with climbing rope. Her name's Katie. I I think I just following and I just I love it. And I love the behind the scenes on I even messaged her and I was like, hey, I totally want to have you on because I want to hear the behind the how you created this company and and everything else and and and stuff like that too. Cause it's a whole, you know, she's doing all these cool mountains and stuff like that. speaker-1: ⁓ my gosh, yes. speaker-0: But it's it's basically her doing her work, right? And I I feel like like you said, pe people need to see the face because people connect with a person so much more than they do with just a big brand, you know? And in the end, you still have to grow your brand and you're gonna have eventually that disconnect sometimes because you as your brand grows, most people want to make more money, right? So they need to grow their brand, but you still need to have that ⁓ that personal connection. So for the people that, you know, you're pushing to get their face on camera or behind the scenes of like them sewing something or them ⁓ you know, out there banging metal on something or something like that. Like what how do you push the person to to do that? Cause I think that's the biggest thing, right? Is they're like, ⁓ I just they don't want to they don't want to do it. Or they think they need a professional way to do it. And you're like, no, the raw is the best. speaker-1: And that's the hard thing about me having clients all over the country. you know, because I started in my van. So well, not my van, my trailer. ⁓ and so, you know, I wasn't local to anywhere. I couldn't offer those services of like, hey, I'm gonna come in, I'm gonna film you, I'm gonna edit these. And now now that I am in a position where I'm kind of stable, ⁓ I I'm like struggling because I don't necessarily have that in my portfolio to try to get those people. But Yeah, it's like I have ⁓ I have a client Gary who's gonna be on your show ⁓ in a different episode. And I just I'm like ⁓ Gary, put up a tripod and just like a film you sewing. Like it's so cool that you do this in your house. Like this is the guy who's making your quilt. Like, you know, obviously like you have to source other things, but I'm like his story is just so fun and cool. And so like you know, trying to get those people to kind of share their story. They're like, I'm not really sure. So, you know, I would even say, like what I try to do is I have people film and I'll kind of give them direction and then they'll send it to me and I'll be able to like edit it up. ⁓ yeah. But you know, I also had a client who like I was having her do some film stuff and like she was like, I hate it. I don't want to do it at all. I'll do it 'cause you're telling me to. But like, I'm not ever gonna c talk to the camera, I'm not ever gonna do this. And I was like, okay, let's change our strategy. And her business was a little different because she's a retail designer. and it's fine. I pretty much have her just because I have the interior design marketing background. but I was like, okay, so Instagram's not gonna be our person. So let's just really focus on LinkedIn. And then we don't need those videos. and if you I would say if you're not gonna do behind the scenes stuff, I'm not saying don't post to Instagram. I'm just saying don't expect a lot. speaker-0: Yeah. Yeah. I I think ⁓ we had Hilltop Packs on, we had Ben on, and they do a lot of behind the scenes as they're printing stuff or sewing stuff and everything else. And you know, of course you need other content, but I think they do a really good job at just kind of showing the behind the scenes on on what they do. and I had heard a statement from somebody one time, I'm not sure it was ⁓ some you know, big time YouTuber, and they were like, Once you get past the fact that you have to be self conscious about yourself, like once you're no longer self conscious about yourself and don't care what other people think about what you look like or whatever, that's when you're going to be successful on social media. Right. And for my wife and I doing our the comedy stuff that she does, at first I was like, ⁓ I hate being on camera. I I look this way or this way. And now I'm just like and even my wife was the same way. And now we're just like, who cares? You know, like Who cares what we look like? Someone's always going to have a comment. Even for your clients when they're sewing, I'm sure someone's going to get on there. And if you're the brand that just recorded that content, ⁓ someone's gonna go on there and say, ⁓ you should be using certain type of stitching or something like that. Right. And but that kind of engagement is great because it just gives you more engagement with people. ⁓ but I think that's probably one of those things I would think that is hard for people. They're self-conscious about themselves on camera. And so, like, like you said, like some people you don't necessarily have to speak to camera, but even you're just sitting there sewing, showing a couple shots of it and and everything else. And it's ⁓ I'm sewing this new bag for this person, or ⁓ we just put this collar on this thing. ⁓ just helps out so much. So, I mean, I think that's a good that's great advice, is having that that face on there. So, ⁓ I guess going into something for your side of it as opposed to the brand side of it, do you have any kind of as you're building your brand? And I know you're still in the early stages of it, so to speak, but like do you have any ⁓ crap moments that have happened since you've been doing it so far? Maybe a a f epic fail or ⁓ something that you want to share? speaker-1: Gosh, I mean, I feel like there's been so many, you know, like how I was talking about how like I was like going gung-ho in one direction and then I was like, wait, this isn't working. And now I'm going like gung-ho in the other direction. And I honestly think that that has helped in the way that like if you kind of just like softly do something and dip your toes in, then you know, you're not you're you're not risking as much because you're not like putting yourself out there as much. But you know, you're not really gonna know what you're gonna like and what you're gonna dislike until you just like kind of go for it. Like too hard. So I mean, you know, gosh, there's then so many things. So ⁓ when I very, very first started, I was, you know, as I said, I was grabbing anyone and I was also kind of offering any services, like if they wanted anything. So I'd be like, Yep, pick me. ⁓ give me money. I need to stay on the road, whatever, we'll make it work. So I had ⁓ I started working with this apparel brand and he was probably like my third client ⁓ ever. And I was like, ⁓ yeah, I can do a photo shoot of like your clothes. Yeah, let's do it. I was like, yeah, I'll get models. I'll figure it out. ⁓ I never figured it out. I mean, I wasn't stable in one place. I don't know how I thought I was gonna do that. So, you know, there's definitely been like those moments where like everyone tells you like under promise, over deliver. And I think like it's so hard. hard when you're beginning because you want to say yes to everything and you want to, you know, yeah, you don't want to lose a sale. And I still sometimes I still get in that where it's like I'm like, ⁓ I like this client so much. Yes, I'll bend to whatever. but you know, we were kind of talking about how you really do need that strategy and you need ⁓ kind of that whole customer journey funnel. And You know, that stuff isn't sexy. Like no one wants that. They're like, strategy, don't play. We'll get there later. And you know, what if once we like build that really intense strategy, then we can tweak it and it's gonna get better and better. So I think, you know, my old crap moments are just like overpromising because honestly, because I didn't know any better, you know. Yeah. I didn't tried it yet. And then ⁓ also letting, letting my clients like hawk me out of things that I know that they need. you know most most of the time it's budget. So, you know, it's one of those things where instead of just letting them not do it like I did in the past, now I'm kind of like, okay, what's your budget? How how do we like split it up so that we can do all these things? And, you know, I have a lot of clients who like, they're like, I just want to see something posted on social. Like I have all these, like, I've worked with all these consultants and I have all this stuff, but nothing's getting out and nothing's doing. So I just want to do it. And I'm like, okay, we can definitely like, you know, I'll give them a little doc that's like, you know, not necessarily full strategy, but some stuff I can pull from. And then we start posting on social and then we can go back to it. Yeah. ⁓ but yeah, as soon like, you know, not letting clients say, ⁓ that's not important because it's like we know that's important. Yeah. And it's hard. It's hard when so many your clients have been burned kind of on that execution side. Like I've talked to a lot of founders who they're like, ⁓ yeah, I hired this one person and I got nothing, or like I hired this consultant and I have this sheet like sitting in Google Drive that does nothing for me. so I really like I really understand where they're coming from, where they're like, I just wanna see stuff. So Yeah, just like I don't know, building that in later instead of just saying, like, Yep, we'll got it. speaker-0: Yeah. So I guess with that, like I feel like so many people get burned by other people. And then now we have to ⁓ come in as marketing people or you know, and say, don't worry, I've got you. And so you have to I guess that's why it's always good to have some previous clients that you could say, Hey, call this person, let them kind of give you a little bit of massage and let you know that everything's gonna be okay, that I've got your back and stuff like that. ⁓ I had ⁓ I had a client one time who ⁓ which I thought was such a cool idea, is that client went on Instagram, ⁓ is on Instagram or TikTok. On Instagram and they went ahead and DM'd the people that I had been posting, like their the stuff that I had been shooting for them. Okay. And because you know on your website you can have ⁓ referrals or you can have like You know, people gave me a five like, you know, comments from people, quotes from other clients, but you're only gonna put the best stuff on your website. And so I'm not gonna, you know, I'm not gonna put it when I've had a problem with somebody. And so they went on and DM'd like three or four of my previous clients and said, Hey, how was it actually working with Craig? Because we tag the people that we shoot for. And those people all were like, ⁓ it was great working with Craig and his wife and everything else. I was like, Thank goodness, you know, like we give a good experience to everybody because But I thought it was great idea to reach out to those those people without me giving them my my referrals that I'm gonna give you that are a hundred percent on board. So they were able to let those let that per that person was able to feel like, ⁓ they d they are gonna take care of me. Craig's not just trying to give me another sale. And I think a good f the good thing is a good face to face with somebody, you can kind of read somebody pretty quickly face to face versus on the phone, I think. most people. And I think that's a good piece of advice is like, like you said, underpromise and overdeliver is great. And setting it that expectation properly, like, because you could totally do that photo shoot, right? And you could be like, hey, listen, I've never done this, but I think I can do this. I want to set the expectation that this is what I can probably do if you're okay with me trying it, versus those people who will say, Hey, yeah, I could totally do it. And then they're like, Trying to figure it out. I have people email me all the time. Hey, I have a photo shoot in two weeks and it's gonna rain. I've never used a flash. And can you teach me how to do the flash? I told my client I can do all these things, but I really can't. And I'm like, one, I can't teach you how to use a flash in one day or in a couple of hours before your shoot. And secondly, like, you know, I'll try to help you because I don't want that client to be disappointed after they spent X amount of dollars. But You need to maybe apologize to that client, set the proper expectation and stuff like that. So that I'm all about that whole underpromise and over deliver thing because I love it when I tell someone personally I'm gonna deliver X amount of images and I'd like give them two or three times as many images, ⁓ or more video than they've needed so that they have more content, or I go over and above with the location as opposed to saying, I'm gonna do it, you know, in my backyard and I'm like, wait a second, I can do it on a mountain 'cause I'm gonna doing this. locations. So let me take the stuff with me. And then ⁓ if they're okay with me shooting on a mountain, let me shoot on a mountain. So that's cool. ⁓ I guess my next question would be then like how do you balance staying connected with the outdoors or relationship with the outdoors? You know, I I know a lot of people as they get into the outdoor space or the space that they're in, they f end up pulling away from that space just 'cause they're so busy with it. But do you find that's more so for people who create products because they're busy sitting inside creating it versus I feel like I guess maybe you could travel a little bit more. I'm not sure if you are still, you know, still have the trailer or if you're able to travel in that that that regard. speaker-1: Yeah, so ⁓ we actually we sold our trailer. It was it was like our little home on wheels, you know, it was big. ⁓ like I think the whole space was an like a foot wider and a fit foot taller of like the biggest sprinter and like that's taking out like the seats and stuff. So like we ⁓ we made it comfy in there. ⁓ but so we sold that and now my husband has a van that is like a half speaker-0: That's cool. speaker-1: half adventure, half work van. So it's not gonna be as pretty, but you know, we're not spending every day in there. ⁓ I got distracted. speaker-0: No, no. The ⁓ just staying connected just staying connected to the outdoor space now that you're in the space. speaker-1: Yeah, so I mean, ⁓ my work has always been on the computer, ⁓ especially virtual. And, you know, I I think my biggest thing is I assumed that when you sat down on a computer and you worked all day, you were gonna get off work and you're gonna have so much energy because you were just sitting all day. But, you know, that is unfortunately not true because your brain was working and you were doing all these things, so you are tired. So when I first kind of transitioned to like, you know, this quote unquote desk job, I I really had to figure out how to like get that outside time in that wasn't part of my job because previously I was a snowboard instructor. And so, you know, I was outside every day. I was walking around and I was freaking tired after that, but I felt like I did something. ⁓ so kind of how I stay connected to the outdoors is Honestly, I live in such a beautiful place. So I live in Steamboat Springs, Colorado. Like it takes me ten minutes to get to the top of a mountain pass. ⁓ the mountain is there's a bus. It takes me five minutes to get to the base. ⁓ yeah, I Yeah, it's I mean it's expensive, but I love it. ⁓ and then I have a dog, ⁓ who I ha I locked him up because I was like, He's gonna bark. There's no way he's not, but speaker-0: That's crazy. Cool. I'm so jealous. speaker-1: You know, so I every single day I go to this dog park and something that's like kind of funky about steamboat is like they don't like fences with like dogs. And so all out or like their parks because we have so much moose and like wildlife moving around. Yeah. So like we don't have fences anywhere. So like ⁓ you know, I sat for people's yards, but so like, you know, you walk like a block down and then you just let your dog off leash and run around and yeah, you go into the creek and You know, you're hoping there's not a moose around to charge you, but mostly charge the dog. Moose really don't like dogs if no one knew. speaker-0: Yeah. That's crazy. ⁓ my gosh. I I I mean, I live in Georgia and Georgia's beautiful, don't get me wrong, but you know, when you go out there ⁓ and you see Colorado or any other place other than Georgia to me, it all just looks so beautiful. So that's cool. And I guess being connected in that way, do you are you creating because I know everybody does it differently, right? Like when you do marketing stuff. Are you able to do stuff for your clients specifically since you're so close to the outdoors? Like let let's say you're doing I don't know, let's just say it's a water bottle, right? And the you need to do some some content. Are you able to just go out in the backyard and film it yourself or do you like do you offer that or do people offer that kind of thing? speaker-1: I do, yeah. So if someone wants like, you know, that really high-end commercial photography, like that's not me. I'm not your girl for that. But, you know, that's not necessarily what's performing on social. So I'll definitely do that UCG content. ⁓ one of my clients, ⁓ Vince from Trialtopia, he, you know, his products are so easy to send me and it's so fun to make like a video of eating food. ⁓ and so he's kind of the main one who I've done that, like. UCG style content for, but kind of what I offer with that is like I want to create a content library because I'm I'm the person who's, you know, pulling photos and videos and trying to make these reels and trying to make ⁓ you know, this content look really good. And when you don't have a content library to pull things from, you just really can't do that. And so, you know, I kind of I'm more on the side of like, let's create a content library so I have something to pull from. And then, you know, because in the outdoor industry, ⁓ You know, there are other ways to not to grow without showing your face. and one of them is just leaning hard into trends. Like Jet Boyle does this so freaking well. They're so funny. and you know, but you do need those videos to pull from that, ⁓ you know, are funny and you can use. So I've been building kind of that library up with Trailtopia over the last two years, ⁓ pulling clips and we're able to kind of lean more into those trends. ⁓ and it's been a lot of fun. speaker-0: That's cool. I'm and this is a question for myself slash for you. So sometimes when I send like a bunch of cont like a big content library after I've done it for a client, their social person ⁓ or their graphic designer will be like, ⁓ but I need it like this. But yet, especially with with and I I lean into social more talking to you just because ⁓ I know that you do you do that and I'm a I'm so interested in that, in that side of it. But ⁓ I'll send them some content, right? And it'll be like some pictures or like, you know, 4K, 6K video that I know that in my mind, if I were the person editing the video, especially for social, you have that crop factor that you can literally with one image, you could get five or six different posts out of, for example, right? Like you could push in on certain parts, you could do certain things with it. But then some people they come back and I can tell right away that there are social person or their graphic designer person really doesn't know as much as I thought they did. And so they're like, ⁓ well, I I need more content. And I'm like, but there's 30 different things that you can do with this. How do you, or maybe this isn't even a question, that's just more of a statement that bothers me every time that I'm like, ⁓ why can't you just use this in 10 different ways instead of just the one way that you see it? Does that make sense? speaker-1: Yeah, no, totally. And you know, I think I think the only thing that I really struggle with ⁓ is when you have, you know, a landscape style video and then you do try to make it into like phone, you know, the it it is a struggle. So I do get that. But ⁓ you know, a lot of people do I don't know, I'll get I'll get like libraries and people will send me like a little clip. That's like a minute long. And I'm like, I just need 10 seconds of this because you know, me taking that in and cutting it up takes a lot more work if it's like long and trying to figure it out. So I personally really like like little short clips of things that are probably like 10 to 30 seconds, unless it's someone talking, then we have to change things a little. Yeah. But ⁓ yeah, that's what I really love. And it's, I mean, it goes back to that. Like I'm such a generalist. Like, you know, I worked in ⁓ I mean, I'm trying to put a year on it, but basically in college I filmed football. And then ⁓ my ⁓ first like feeling like it was a professional job was at a TV studio in Vale. And it was kind of funny because like it was it was kind of low budget, but they like had this like big resort backing. So we had super fancy equipment, like I worked for another TV station and I was like, ⁓ you guys have nothing. And it's like, well, they just didn't have this like huge company backing. But anyway, so like, you know, it's like I do have that experience in video editing and shooting and, you know, having a director in my ear and kind of telling me like what they want and also just like different styles, you know, like filming football is way different than filming like you know, someone talking and like live TV. And yeah, so you know, I I try I try to give myself credit on a lot of those things that, you know, you kind of just have to do it to have that experience and know. ⁓ and I think I think that is what I'm trying to bring into people is like, I'm not gonna create those commercial videos for you. I'm not gonna, you know, create like the most beautiful things, but I'm gonna create a really good like skeleton for you to work off. Like we're gonna have really great email automations. We're gonna have great social. We're gonna create a content library that you can use again and again. And, you know, just being able to do all those little parts because marketing is so big. And all these little things and like, you know, it's just like Yeah. And it's just like, you know, one company, like you'll talk to someone and they're like, ⁓ you need SEO and you need social and you need email and you need speaker-0: So broad. speaker-1: beautiful content and you need all this. And it's just, it's honestly overwhelming. And so that's kind of that's kind of where I found my home and like where companies are really excited to work with me is that I can do all these little things so everything looks cohesive. speaker-0: Yeah. No, that's cool. I I I have companies that will come come to us and ⁓ the the next shoot that I'm doing right now, they want ⁓ they came to me and wanted ⁓ vertical video as opposed to, you know, sixteen by nine horizontal. And then they came back and they're like, actually, can you shoot horizontal now and then just shoot it really, really high? And I'm like, Okay, ⁓ now I'm like, Okay, let me just shoot both. Yeah. But Kind of going rewinding a little bit to what you said, like with that landscape, you know, it's so hard to shoot a really beautiful landscape ⁓ in vertical video unless it's filmed like it needs to be shot, right? And so sometimes I'm out I'm outside and I'm like, ⁓ this looks amazing, like this. And then I go to film it, you know, portrait, and like, how can I, even with the widest lens, how can I show this beauty? So all Personally I'll shoot both. ⁓ but my my daughter ⁓ is runs social for a company. ⁓ and she's always asking me because she's like, I'm like, okay, I I don't mind being the dad that's like been doing video for years. So you can ask me how to do stuff. Yeah. And she's got a great resource that like I'm like, you know how much people would pay to talk to to get this advice right now? But ⁓ she'll she borrows my s my my camera gear and everything else, but she's always asking me, How can I film this like this or what can I do? ⁓ to make it better. So I think ⁓ do you have a community of people that you kind of because I know in the in the outdoor space, I feel like at least from what I gather from from being in the in the the outdoor industry for the last few years and stuff is most people are really, really kind to each other and we all kind of work off each other. There's always that, you know, little bad apple here and there. ⁓ but I think you need that community around you, especially for you. Do you have a community of people that do the same thing that you do that you can kind of bounce? ideas off of and stuff like that. speaker-1: Yeah, and it's it's kind of funny because, you know, like people talk about like, you know, aren't these people your competitors? And it's like honestly, not really. Like we all offer something so unique. Like, you know, the person who's gonna hire you and be really happy with your work is not the person who's gonna, you know, for photography is not the person who's gonna hire me and I'm not a photographer, so obviously that doesn't make sense. But, you know. ⁓ and so yeah, I have really found and man, I put work into it. I didn't realize you know, when I was first on the road and I was charging dirt cheap, like, you know, and and doing kind of stupid things like telling people I could do a full photo shoot. Yeah. You know, like I mean, yeah, it's like I did say something I couldn't do, but I was sorry I was charging nothing. So Yeah. but I guess what I'm trying to say is that No, I lost it. ⁓ you were saying community. Okay, okay, okay. Sorry. ⁓ yeah, so ⁓ yeah, I really worked on since I've been back in Steamboat Springs, I guess not back since I moved here, ⁓ versus being on the road, I have really found that I need that network of people. So, you know, right now, like I know a really amazing videographer down in Denver. And, you know, I have a I have a climbing guide con speaker-0: ⁓ you're good. Yeah, yeah. speaker-1: I have a climbing guide client and is he wants some really beautiful video, I'm like, okay, that's who you're gonna send it to. I know so many people who do websites. ⁓ and so it's kind of just like, hey, what do you want? I can send you over here. And yeah, you know, I've really found that with other people too. Like I have someone who like they do startup strategy. And so when someone's ready to like starting to make a little bit more money and wants someone to actually execute for it instead of them do it themselves. She'll refer people to me. and you know, even like I have I ⁓ like I have one partner who like she contracts me out technically. And I don't even have to talk to the client. And at first I was like, this is really weird. I always like part of my business is like client interaction. But it was really nice just to be like, she was like, give me this stuff. And I was like, okay, done. ⁓ so yeah, you know, there are it's definitely like not cut and dry every Clients different and you know, making those relationships has really been like on the top of what I'm doing right now. Yeah. speaker-0: My my wife went to this conference in New York and and she had been doing social media for so long, but none of her friends could kind of really understand the the issues she was going through when a reel wouldn't perform well or if, you know, Instagram is just being a pain in the butt that day and everything else. And then by the time she came back, now they have this group and I get the notifications on my phone too, because our Instagrams are all on the same phone and I'll hear them talking with each other and it's really cool. She's like, ⁓ now we all kind of understand each other when we're not getting, you know, when the algorithm changes or this changes and stuff like that. So I think it's always great to have that community that kinda to understand you. Like that one partner that you said, she kind of sends it to you. She understands what you do and you understand each other's language as opposed to I'm sure you go to your husband and he's I I know like my wife comes to me and she tells me her problems and I go, I have no idea. I'm just like, Uhhuh, yeah. And I'm like, You're doing a great job. And she's like, I'm not. And I'm like, No, you are. But when she goes at other people, they understand it and then they can kind of give her a little more advice. ⁓ I don't know if you did that to your husband where he's like, ⁓ I get it, but I don't, you know. So speaker-1: Yeah, I think I I don't know if you've seen the reels that are going around that are like and usually it's like women business honors where like their husbands like and is are is doing something and it's like the job I never signed up for that I don't get paid for and I'm like yeah I hardcore feel that even with like you know I'm like stuck on something I'm like hey what do you think about this? And he's like, I don't know what you're talking about and I was like, It's okay, just like Just ask me questions and then my brain will figure it out. I'm like, Yeah. You know, like you don't I but then there are some times where I'm like, ⁓ I need, I need someone. And yeah, that's kind of like ⁓ the woman who contracts me out, she runs Boondock Consulting and she like has this background. She was an HR forever. So like she's just a whiz on like all contracts and like like communication and like every so I'll like message her all the time and I'm like, what do you do for this? And yeah, it's just funny stuff. And actually like my interior, well, my retail designer client, she used this bank. And I like was like, hey, how do you really like this bank? And she's Yeah, it's great. So, you know, it's funny. You definitely have your different people that you can pull from. And somehow our spouses just get lumped into everything. Yeah. ⁓ willingly or not. Yeah. But yeah, I think think just like having those communities of like random business owners or, you know, someone who is doing something similar to you, ⁓ is just so helpful. speaker-0: Yeah. I think I heard a quote from somebody one time. I wish I knew the people who quote these things. I'm such a bad, like, if I wrote a book, I'd probably get sued because I wouldn't be able to have any of the actual references. But ⁓ you know, I've I talked to somebody and they're like, you know, I go to somebody, I really respect them for their financial advice, but I would never ask them for marriage advice. Or I would ask this person for marriage advice, but I'm not gonna ask them for advice for my kids or you know, I'm not gonna ask this person for my mental health, but I would never ask them for financial advice, you know? So you kind of have those avenues. I have a few friends that I would ask everything, but you know, I I have there's one friend I ask him for financial advice all the time because he is a whiz, but he is like the driest person in the world. I would never ask him for like fun things to do or or stuff like that, you know? So ⁓ like yeah that having people around you and knowing who to ask. I think is probably the best, the best advice out there. ⁓ okay, so I kind of winding down, I guess the my my last question before I kind of go into the lightning round or ask a little bit about like some kind of quirks and stuff about yourself is what does, you know, ecocentric marketing, what does it look like? ⁓ what does it look like, you know, a year from now or five years from now? Like what are some things that you're kind of looking forward to in the future? speaker-1: Yeah, that's a great question. ⁓ so ⁓ something that I'm really excited about is, you know, being that full time, you know, they kind of call like some people call themselves a fractional CMO. And my problem with that is that those people don't do any of the execution. So really just like being able to build out someone's full marketing ecosystem and just like kind of getting them from, hey, have these little pieces here to just like full on because I really haven't been able to do that with a lot of my clients. And that's more that's more kind of on me where it's like, you know, they're like, ⁓ do we have to do strategy? And I'm like, no, that's okay. ⁓ we'll just do social. So, you know, I I think just becoming more of a full service, I don't want to say product, but you know, kind of more of a full service product and really helping these brands that care about the environment and care about the work they're doing just grow and flourish. And, you know, that's kind of what makes me excited. And everyone I work with is so hyped about their business and their product and what they're doing. And I but they don't know how to take that out. So I just want to be the person who's like. You're so cool. Let's get all of this and let's like start building it. ⁓ so yeah, I guess I'm just looking for, you know, in the next five years to help build up those companies that are incredible and they don't have an in house team and we can just keep working on it. speaker-0: I think it's cool that have clients that are more, you know, the the quote unquote mom and pop kind of things versus and you have that emotional connection and that hype. It's also a downside because it's their personal money a lot of times versus someone when you work with big corporations, there's not that connection, right? So there's not that hype. Like I've think I've said it before that I'll send I'll send pictures to a client and they're like so excited that we've just got all this great stuff for them. And then I'll send it to a big corporate client. They'll just the email will just say thanks. And that's it. Right. And then you see the pictures here and there, but you don't have that emotional satisfaction of you just helped somebody. You've just, you know, you've had you've helped somebody, but there's not that super crazy hype. I know I've had done pictures for clients and they're like, they just keep emailing me. I'm so excited. ⁓ my gosh, we just check this video out, check this post out and everything else. ⁓ so you get that nice emotional ⁓ contact as opposed to a big marketing firm. Like I have a friend who runs a ⁓ big marketing firm up in Canada. And so I know it's just a lot of times it ends up being just the frustrations that the big companies will bring to you as opposed to the good stuff. They almost always just bring the frustrated stuff to you instead of all the good stuff. Right. So I think that that's pretty cool. speaker-1: Yeah. And I think like, you know, I'll talk to other people who are social media, like, you know, just social media. And they they don't really get that behind the scenes of like, are the sales rising? Are they being impacted? Where are our spikes? And so, you know, that's something that, you know, because A I get a control everything in that aspect, like I get that side of the analytics. And then B just, you know, I'm You know, there's a face behind the name. Like I'm so excited to work with these people. They're so excited to work with me. ⁓ yeah, we just and once I sign on a client and if if we've been working together for six months, we're probably gonna work together for two or three years. And if you know, I technically have a three month minimum, but if it's not working in the first month, like we both know it. ⁓ yeah, it's definitely, you know, I I don't really take on clients that I don't like them personally. speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-1: And most people are great in the outdoor industry, so easy to do, right? speaker-0: Yeah, exactly. So I this is the last thing, and this is more of a question for you, just because I've always wondered. ⁓ you know, people when you you were saying like that relationship and you get control of the analytics, so you get to see it, right? ⁓ I think smaller brands don't understand. They only and not always I say that I'm of course I'm generalizing it, right? There's a lot of people that do understand numbers and stuff like that, but they will only look at how many followers you have and maybe how many views ⁓ a video has versus the real thing I think is the engagement factor, right? Like we're my wife's doing a ⁓ doing a thing with someone right now and they they were like, we could care less about your followers. And that's great that you have a lot of followers and stuff like that. But they were like, want to see the engagement number, right? But then when you look at that actual engagement number, usually it's a really, really low percentage, but it's actually a really high number when you look at the actual number. And I think for for me, it's always trying to get those people past the, hey, you're going to get X amount of views, but really we're going to engage this many people, which is a lot bigger thing. So do you, and I I could go on for forever about social stuff, of course, but how do you get somebody who's runs a small company to say, hey, it's okay that that you have X amount of followers or this person that we're going to collab with to show your product out. They might not have half a million followers. Maybe they only have ten thousand followers, but their core engagement is so big. There's so much conversation going on and stuff like that. Is there a way that you push people ⁓ to see that? Like is that like a tip for people or how can you tell people that are listening right now that have a small cottage brand, look at the engagement number or look at a certain number when it comes to social? speaker-1: Yeah, and that's an interesting one because I like the tool I use, I ⁓ I use Metricol and you can literally put c your competitors, so like, you know, whoever, you know, like if you want to put jet boyle in there or, you know, a different brand who does something similar, and you can put in like their names and then Metrical actually grabs and is like, they post this many posts, this many videos, there's this is their engagement rate. So You know, I can actually look at and be like, hey, ⁓ they have, you know, this many more followers, but their engagement rate sucks. You know, like the even though they have these followers, like they're not getting people to interact, they're not getting people to see their stuff. Whereas if we go down to us, like look at our engagement rate. So I kind of just like use my tools to kind of look like just define that. And I think that really helps because, you know, people do get stuck in the like Ten thousand, a hundred thousand, like but when you really boil it down, like a thousand people who care about your stuff, like that's a lot of people. Can you imagine like in a room having a thousand people who care and are listening to you? Like you'd be taken away. Whereas when you just see that number on social, you're like, speaker-0: Yeah, no, that's really good. Yeah. speaker-1: Yeah. So just like trying to pull people back to like reality instead of like fake social and yeah. You know, at the end of the day, ⁓ yes, I care so much about those numbers, but I care about our sales, you know. Like if our sales aren't increasing versus what we're doing, then yeah, it all doesn't matter. Like, you know, like no like none of my clients are trying to be Instagram creators or Instagram famous or try to get brown deals. ⁓ You know, they're all just trying to sell their product more and get it out in the world and make the world a better place. speaker-0: Yeah. No, that's good. I love that analogy and I love the fact that you're like, hey, it's great that we're connecting on social, but really if I'm not doing my job and you're making sales, then I'm not doing my job. And so your job is making sales for people. That's great. Well, well, thank I mean, thank you so much. I mean, I've again I always tell people I learned so much. I think people are listening, especially if you're a cottage brand or even a large brand, I think we all pull some great advice from this convo and hearing more about it. So before we go into the QA of the the quick little lightning round, how can people find you if they if they are having questions or they want to either get a consultation from you to see if it's a right fit and stuff like that, how can they find you? speaker-1: Yeah, so ⁓ my my company's website is ecoteric marketing and that's ⁓ ECO no gosh and now I need it in front of me. Ecot marketing.com. ⁓ I also of course have socials, but as everyone does, I have a hard time staying up on my own stuff. And so you know it's so funny. I'm like, I always tell my clients I'm like fix your ups. Fix this. Why is it this fixed? And then like you go to my stuff and I'm like, ⁓ yeah, I need to update those photos. I'm not posting on social, like, you know, consistently. But it's so much easier to do it for someone else, which is why like you know, we which is really why people hire me is because they're too close for it. Like, you know, it has to be perfect. They take too long thinking about it. And it's like, guys, we just have to get something out there. you know, we can make it perfect one day. speaker-0: Yeah. It's just like ⁓ people who ⁓ you know, who do home renovations and stuff like that. You'll go and there'll be a thing that's n never been fixed for how long and stuff like that. 'Cause you come home and the last thing you want to do is do more home renovation when you've just been building a house all day long. So speaker-1: Yeah, yeah. And I'm I'm trying to get better about like, you know, doing my own stuff because I'm like I need to walk the walk that I'm talking all day long. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, you know, on Instagram, I it's just ecoteric marketing, same with Facebook, but I kind of cross post there. So wherever. ⁓ and then yeah, the main one is just my website. ⁓ my emails on there. People can also just like instantly book whatever's like more their style. speaker-0: Yeah. Okay, cool. Awesome. Well thank you. ⁓ we're gonna go into rapid fire round just to get to know a little bit more about you and stuff like that. So these are more like quick answers, nothing super, super deep. ⁓ but without further ado, let's rock and roll. ⁓ what's your favorite national park? speaker-1: I'm gonna say Yellowstone. ⁓ I grew up in Idaho and Yellowstone was a very go back to many times. speaker-0: Okay. Never been. One day we'll go. A few people have said Yellowstone, so I've heard that's really good. ⁓ so I guess this question mountains, forest, desert, or coast? What's your favorite? speaker-1: Ooh, definitely mountains. And speaking of Yellowstone, so my favorite mountain range is the Beartooth Mountains. I don't know how many other people have favorite mountain ranges. but that's right outside of Yellowstone. It's I mean Yellowstone's big, but you know, in Wyoming. Stunning. speaker-0: Awesome. ⁓ okay, last thing you Googled related to your business. speaker-1: ⁓ no. Last thing I Googled related to my business. Man, that's a hard one. Maybe cause ⁓ probably something about like SEO and keywords. Yeah. I don't know. That one's not me. That one's not me. speaker-0: All right. ⁓ favorite trail snack. speaker-1: Ooh, you know what I've been getting really into lately, which is not even a snack, but is those like electrolyte drinks. ⁓ like the little tabs. I know that's not a snack, but ⁓ yeah, I just I don't know. I I feel I I think I like placebo it and I'm like, okay, now that I have this, I can't get tired. Or like I'm like I'm getting tired and I'm like chugging it. ⁓ but as far as like climbing, I don't know. The climbing community and kind of the backpacking community too are like obsessed with nerd clusters and so someone always has freaking nerd clusters and so I'm like ⁓ I want those and like I do I do feel like that little sugar rush just like really helps like when you're out doing these activities that you like don't realize that you're like kind of starting to yeah go downhill on performance. speaker-0: Yeah. I was just at the store and they had like Fourth of July ⁓ nerd ⁓ nerd's clusters or whatever. And I was like, ⁓ my gosh, my kids were there and I'm like, Let's get them. Anytime I see a new nerd cluster ⁓ like collab with some kind, I'm like, Okay, get that. Yeah, and it's I can't get enough of them. speaker-1: It's so funny. I'm like, they do they know that like the outdoor industry is obsessed with them? Because it doesn't seem like it from their marketing. Like you know, but that maybe that's why we are so hyped about it. Like they're not I don't know, they're not pushing that angle too hard. Yeah. speaker-0: I think everybody goes, it's a hidden secret. So it's like, ⁓ I found this new hack. And then ⁓ I have heard though that like there's not a lot of carbs in there. It's just a lot of sugar and stuff like that. And so I'm starting to cut more of that out now. I kind of knew, but I just love I'm a sweets person, so I I could eat candy all day long. ⁓ okay. ⁓ biggest splurge you've made for your business. speaker-1: Ooh, yeah. So the biggest blurge I've ever made is hiring a business well, a sales coach. and it didn't go that great. I I know. Yeah. So you know, it just ended up not being for me. ⁓ but that's okay. Like I did I did learn a lot from it. I just didn't learn what I wanted to learn. speaker-0: Yeah. Yeah. ⁓ next one is what's ⁓ one outdoor skill you still kind of suck at? speaker-1: I mean, I kinda, you know, as we were talking about, I'm a general generalist. So kind of everything. you know, it's like I'm a climber but I'm only climbing like five tens and everyone around me is climbing five twelves. I backpack but I only backpack like every other weekend in the summer. Yeah. So I'm super slow compared to other people. ⁓ I'm a very like casual mountain biker. you know, so I th I think the one thing that like I would say I'm tip top at is hiking with my dog for an hour. Like I can't mess that up. speaker-0: That's great. And last question, what's your favorite way to unplug or do you even unplug? speaker-1: yes, I definitely have to unplug. I mean, I think every business owner, like, especially, you know, I work at home. So like my business comes with me. ⁓ honestly, it's getting getting outside doing anything. You know, that's I'll be so in my head and like struggling about something and then I'll go on a hike or I'll go climbing or, you know, I'll just sit outside. So like, you know, just connecting with honestly the reason why. Yeah. We're all here and why we started it. speaker-0: Yeah. I think it's probably the hardest thing is ⁓ especially when you're doing social media and website and stuff like that, you're pro you're probably literally feel like you always have to be connected to the point where you're just like, I wanna throw social media out the window, just leave my phone. That's one of the good things about being in the outdoor space is you can go off to where there's no cell signal and then then you can just literally disconnect. So that's good. speaker-1: Yeah, and that's kind of why my own socials aren't aren't that great is because I'm like because I have had that where I'm like sitting by the river fishing and I'm like, ⁓ it's so pretty and then like, ⁓ should I be getting content? And, you know, it's like, no, no, this is this is my time to be here. ⁓ what I did start doing is, you know, because when you are out fishing or hiking, you get ideas. And so I started and I know a lot of people do it on their notes out, but I have a project management system. I just have ideas and I just freaking type them in there so that they're out of my brain. Cause I feel like sometimes when you when you have this idea and then you're like, ⁓ I can't forget it. And then you just like keep thinking about it. Yeah. ⁓ and then you're just not enjoying where you are. So yeah, I would say like definitely giving yourself like allowing yourself to unplug and not think about your business. And then also give your brain like little outlets to, you know, because brains do what they want. speaker-0: Yeah. No, I think that's a really good tip to end the convo is literally like I never thought about that like I write it down, but I never thought when I write it down, it finally is there and then I can think about it later. Yeah. As opposed to thinking about it and then going, okay, thinking about it more and more and more. Cause then I'll sit down later on and look at my list of ideas and be like, ⁓ I remember that. And then you can go more in depth. So I'm gonna do that more. I'm gonna write down stuff more often. as soon as I'm thinking about it so I can stop thinking about it and let my brain rest for once. Yeah. So that's great. Well, I mean, Becca, thank you so much ⁓ for being on. I I'm I'm sure everybody learned a ton. And ⁓ everybody who's listening, thank you so much for listening. And we can't wait for the next episode. Thank you so much, Becca. I look forward to seeing you in person one day soon. speaker-1: Yeah, you're welcome. And yeah, I can't wait for that meeting as well. speaker-0: Awesome. Thanks, Fecca. Bye.