Latest / The Psychology of Relationships / Sex Talks: The Five Conversations Every Couple Needs To Transform Their Love Life w/ Vanessa and Xander Marin

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Sex Talks: The Five Conversations Every Couple Needs To Transform Their Love Life w/ Vanessa and Xander Marin · The Psychology of Relationships

0:00
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm Julie Kraftcheck, and I'm U.A.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Xu.
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[SPEAKER_01]: This is the psychology of relationships.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Sex is one of the most important parts of a relationship and one of the least talked about.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Whether you're single, dating, or in a long-term partnership, how you approach intimacy shapes not just your sex life, but your overall connection.
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[SPEAKER_01]: We're joined by Vanessa Marin.
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[SPEAKER_01]: licensed psychotherapists and author of Sex Talks, alongside her husband and collaborator Zandermarin.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Together, they've helped thousands of couples build more fulfilling intimate lives through their work, courses, and research back to approach.
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[SPEAKER_01]: We get into what's really happening behind closed doors for most couples, while so many people struggle to talk about sex openly and how avoidance can quietly create distance over time.
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[SPEAKER_01]: This conversation reframed sex as
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[SPEAKER_01]: and confidence, not awkwardness or pressure, because intimacy isn't just physical, it's about feeling safe, scene, and understood.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And learning how to talk about it might be the key to creating the love life you actually want.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Remember to subscribe to the psychology of relationships on Apple podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen, and if this episode helped you shift how you think about sex and intimacy, we love a rating or a review.
1:18
[SPEAKER_01]: This is the psychology of relationships and you're listening to an episode that just might change the way you show up for love.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Enjoy!
1:27
[SPEAKER_01]: one of our favorite topics, sex, sex, sex, but we also want to know what happens behind closed doors for couples.
1:34
[SPEAKER_01]: It's something that over brunch, maybe your friends don't really bring up like what their sex life is like, but it's something that is always top of mind, especially if you're new in a relationship or even 10 years into a relationship, the topic of sex always comes up.
1:50
[SPEAKER_01]: So we got a sex perk couple with us today, Vanessa and Zander Marin.
1:54
[SPEAKER_01]: Vanessa's in sex therapist and Sanders.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Just a regular dude.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I love that that's how you introduce yourself.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Just a regular dude.
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[SPEAKER_00]: But you're really not, you're not just a regular dude.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And they are married to each other.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Just want to clarify.
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[SPEAKER_03]: Welcome, Vanessa and Sanders.
2:08
[SPEAKER_03]: Welcome.
2:09
[SPEAKER_03]: Thank you guys.
2:11
[SPEAKER_03]: Thanks for having us for so excited to be here.
2:13
[SPEAKER_01]: I feel like I intimately know both of you and I realize you don't know me, so you probably have so many of these people who've been hearing all about your intimate details, but I have this burning question this whole time is, say, and or when did you know that Vanessa was a sex therapist?
2:29
[SPEAKER_01]: At what point was this information divulged?
2:31
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, I think that I knew from pretty much the very beginning when we met Vanessa hadn't gone to grad school yet for psychotherapy so she wasn't practicing but it was her career aspiration and I probably found that out first date I'm going to guess I'm sure we talked about that so yeah I always knew that was something that she wanted to do.
2:51
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it wasn't until maybe four or five years into our relationship that she really started practicing that on a daily basis.
2:58
[SPEAKER_00]: But yeah, it was always an exciting thing.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Like, it's cool to be able to tell my friends that I'm dating a future sex therapist.
3:05
[SPEAKER_03]: But be honest, it made you a little nervous too, right?
3:07
[SPEAKER_02]: It's like, that's what I wanted to know.
3:10
[SPEAKER_02]: Was there a reason to my day should get started?
3:12
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, it's got it.
3:13
[SPEAKER_00]: Vanessa beat me to the butt.
3:15
[SPEAKER_00]: The butt was that it was intimidating because I was like, it's fun to talk about sex that other couples are having or issues that other people are having.
3:26
[SPEAKER_00]: But I kind of always knew like at some point, I was gonna have to get honest about my own stuff.
3:31
[SPEAKER_00]: I was gonna have to confront my own issues or our own issues and that was scary at first.
3:37
[SPEAKER_01]: I can only imagine.
3:38
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm intimidated talking to Vanessa and I'm not even having sex with the law.
3:43
[SPEAKER_01]: And then Vanessa, for you, when you started your research and your studies and then practicing, did you have any of your personal rules around sex?
3:52
[SPEAKER_01]: Because I know you two had sex on your second or third date debatable, which I know there's a debate about that.
4:00
[SPEAKER_01]: Quite early on in your relationships, did you have any of those rules as so many of us have?
4:05
[SPEAKER_03]: I tried not to have any hard and fast rules about my sex life.
4:09
[SPEAKER_03]: I just found that each situation was so unique, each relationship was so unique, that if I went into it with these rules that I felt like I had to adhere to, it was actually harder for me to tune into myself and what my needs felt like in those situations.
4:25
[SPEAKER_03]: So in general, I'm not a big fan of rules that we have to stick by.
4:29
[SPEAKER_00]: And I definitely didn't go into our first date with any rules.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And mine, honestly, I was not looking for a serious relationship.
4:37
[SPEAKER_00]: I wasn't expecting to fall into a serious relationship.
4:40
[SPEAKER_00]: And so it was really just more of a, let's see what happens kind of thing.
4:45
[SPEAKER_00]: And very quickly, I very visibly saw that it was more than just a, let's see what happens situation.
4:52
[SPEAKER_00]: Like we were pretty well matched.
4:54
[SPEAKER_00]: And it turned very quickly into a very serious relationship.
4:57
[SPEAKER_02]: Interesting.
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[SPEAKER_03]: Like do you remember what that like Bob it was that you said okay like this is more it really just felt like it was those some of those early days So one of the things that I appreciated so much about Zander is that there wasn't the sense of playing games with each other And I think that's very often what the rules
5:14
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
5:14
[SPEAKER_03]: And feeling like in the moment is it feels like playing games.
5:18
[SPEAKER_03]: So that night that we met, we had this furious make-out session.
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[SPEAKER_03]: We were up for hours.
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[SPEAKER_03]: He walked me home at the end of the night.
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[SPEAKER_03]: And he just said, I want to see you.
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[SPEAKER_03]: What are you doing tomorrow?
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[SPEAKER_03]: And it felt so exciting to me to have hear somebody who's not trying to do this whole thing of the rules of, oh, I've got to play it cool and wait a couple of days to call her.
5:38
[SPEAKER_03]: We ended up being way too tired and I'm a little hungover too.
5:41
[SPEAKER_03]: but next day, but it was refreshing to hear him say like, I like you.
5:46
[SPEAKER_03]: I want to see you again when can I see you next?
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[SPEAKER_00]: So we went on our first date the night after.
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[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, two days first official date.
5:53
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, that's quickly as possible.
5:54
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, we met on a Saturday and we had dates Monday, Wednesday and Friday and it just felt like I appreciate that he wants to see me.
6:03
[SPEAKER_03]: He's making that time to see me and that's I think
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[SPEAKER_03]: We like each other.
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[SPEAKER_03]: We want to keep hanging out.
6:12
[SPEAKER_03]: Why should we play any games and pretend that we don't?
6:14
[SPEAKER_02]: Why is it that difficult?
6:16
[SPEAKER_02]: It's not easy, but as we know, you know, sex I feel like is one of those things you think is supposed to be easy, but it's not always, which is why you wrote this book, why you have the podcast.
6:27
[SPEAKER_02]: While you do the work that you do, I guess I'm curious.
6:30
[SPEAKER_02]: We always wonder what goes on behind closed doors.
6:33
[SPEAKER_02]: And like you were saying earlier, like at brunch, you don't talk about sex, especially when it's not going well.
6:40
[SPEAKER_02]: What are some of the things you've heard as the most common challenges that couples face with sex?
6:46
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, we are just not having these open conversations, even with our friends, you know, if we do talk about sex, I think a lot of us feel this desire to make it seem like it's perfect.
6:56
[SPEAKER_03]: Yes.
6:57
[SPEAKER_03]: Actually, once we get into a relationship.
6:59
[SPEAKER_03]: So it's one thing when you're dating someone casually.
7:01
[SPEAKER_03]: You might say like, oh, yeah, it was really good or it was not good.
7:05
[SPEAKER_03]: You might go into more details about what happened.
7:08
[SPEAKER_03]: But once you're in a relationship with somebody and you want your friends to like them, you want them to think that the relationship is going well and everything's good, we don't want to give those sensitive details anymore.
7:19
[SPEAKER_03]: So we hear from so many people who tell us, I am not even honest with my closest friends about what's really going on in our bedroom.
7:27
[SPEAKER_03]: So the biggest complaints that we hear about from people are feeling low desire, and that goes really hand in hand with feeling like there's mismatch libido's in the relationship, like I want it way less and my partner wants it, we're like, arguing about how frequently we should have it.
7:42
[SPEAKER_03]: And then on men's behalf, we hear a lot about performance anxiety.
7:47
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm struggling too.
7:48
[SPEAKER_03]: get hard, stay hard, have an orgasm at the right time, generally feeling anxious about sex.
7:54
[SPEAKER_03]: And pretty similarly for women, we hear that same anxiety about, and my good is my partner enjoying it and a lot of women having problems with orgasms specifically.
8:04
[SPEAKER_00]: Am I taking too long?
8:06
[SPEAKER_01]: Women who've never had an orgasm or maybe they can get there on their own but really struggle to get there with a partner So those would be the top three things that we hear about sounds about right and I feel like all of that It's a very lonely place to be when you think there may be something wrong in your sex life and you have nobody to talk to about it And I think a lot of times with our friends too.
8:27
[SPEAKER_01]: You feel like the default of a healthy relationship is a healthy sex life You just assume people are just yeah
8:33
[SPEAKER_01]: banging all the time because they were so happy, it must be so great.
8:37
[SPEAKER_01]: And I recently had a conversation with a girlfriend in my who has a very high sex drive and she's like, my goal is twice a week.
8:44
[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm like, that is so achievable.
8:46
[SPEAKER_01]: I did not know that was your goal.
8:47
[SPEAKER_01]: I thought she was twice a day, you know?
8:49
[SPEAKER_01]: So we have all these misconceptions about people.
8:53
[SPEAKER_01]: Why do you think talking about sex would help alleviate some of these problems?
8:58
[SPEAKER_03]: We all build up these stories in our heads of what everybody else's sex lives look like and what our sex lives are supposed to look like and if we don't talk about those stories openly, especially with the person that we are having sex with, then it's so likely that there's going to be miscommunication misunderstanding about what we actually need and want.
9:21
[SPEAKER_03]: How often do we want to be having sex?
9:23
[SPEAKER_03]: What feels good in our relationship?
9:25
[SPEAKER_03]: We could very easily misunderstand each other.
9:27
[SPEAKER_03]: Maybe he thinks like you like oh We're supposed to be doing a twice a day and that stresses him out and feels like wait too much But I'm over here thinking oh like twice a week would sound totally great to me
9:37
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I mean, the example you gave was such a good example where you had a limited amount of information.
9:43
[SPEAKER_00]: You know that this friend of yours has a higher sex drive, or maybe she's mentioned like, oh, I have a pretty high sex drive.
9:50
[SPEAKER_00]: And then you, it turns into a story in your mind and the same thing happens with us like in a lot of partnerships.
9:56
[SPEAKER_00]: You might not talk about sex very much, but you probably have an idea of like, oh yeah, I think my partner has a higher sex drive than I do, or they've mentioned that they have a high sex drive, but that's all of the conversation you have and it's gonna be so easy to jump to this conclusion of it's not gonna be good enough unless they're getting it every day or twice a day, when in reality maybe they want it once a week.
10:15
[SPEAKER_03]: And it can also be other aspects of your sex life too.
10:18
[SPEAKER_03]: Maybe there's this move that your partner thinks you love and it works so well.
10:22
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, and you're over here thinking it's way strong for me to help you.
10:27
[SPEAKER_03]: Can I hate it?
10:28
[SPEAKER_00]: Not the blue punk again.
10:31
[SPEAKER_02]: So, the two of you, I think your story is really fast today, kind of, you know, you've been together a while, you've gone through periods where maybe there was as much sex as you would have hoped.
10:43
[SPEAKER_02]: Could you share a little bit about your own story and how that's fed into the work you do?
10:48
[SPEAKER_03]: So it was hot and heavy between the two of us when we first met those back-to-back dates.
10:54
[SPEAKER_03]: We were really into each other and then we went through what pretty much every relationship goes through.
11:00
[SPEAKER_03]: You've been together for a little while.
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[SPEAKER_03]: You start getting more comfortable with each other.
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[SPEAKER_03]: Life starts catching up to you and you start having less and less sex.
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[SPEAKER_03]: So we share our story in the book and we say,
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[SPEAKER_03]: There's nothing remarkable about what happened to us.
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[SPEAKER_03]: Nothing completely out of the ordinary.
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[SPEAKER_03]: It's something that we all go through.
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[SPEAKER_03]: We hit that period in a relationship where it just starts feeling harder and more complicated.
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[SPEAKER_03]: And so for us, it did feel like this huge stumbling block of, wow, it used to feel so easy and the beginning.
11:32
[SPEAKER_03]: And now it's feeling so hard and even though I was already on this career path pursuing sex therapy I was looking for resources and just feeling like there was nothing out there So it was this sense of exactly what you're saying before you have like feeling alone in it feeling like Oh my gosh, we must be the only couple that are going through this
11:53
[SPEAKER_03]: And this added little imposter syndrome for me.
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[SPEAKER_03]: I'm studying to do some of the expert in our own relationship.
12:01
[SPEAKER_00]: And for me as a guy, there was this like, well, I'm a man.
12:05
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm supposed to want sex all the time.
12:07
[SPEAKER_00]: How can this be a problem when it feels like everything else in our relationship is right?
12:13
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, how is it that I am?
12:15
[SPEAKER_00]: Not wanting it enough is there something wrong with me as a man like I immediately jump to like, oh like there must be something wrong with my hormone levels or my testosterone or whatever it is, but that kept me from looking at all the other things going on like how is my fitness?
12:31
[SPEAKER_00]: How as my emotional well being how is my workload like I was working myself to the bone at you know 20 years?
12:38
[SPEAKER_00]: 24 years old trying to get ahead, not doing any exercise, really not feeling very good about myself at all.
12:45
[SPEAKER_00]: And then like the little time I did have off of work was like at home, lying on the couch with Vanessa and it's like that just wasn't a good situation for for me to feel very fired up with my sex drive.
12:58
[SPEAKER_02]: So is there a time because like I've think the honey moon period rise whether you're hot and heavy?
13:03
[SPEAKER_02]: Now I've seen it in my relationship too.
13:05
[SPEAKER_02]: It's like you get comfortable with each other and you don't need to prove it as much.
13:10
[SPEAKER_02]: So like the whole thing, is there a set time or is it really the very couple to couple?
13:16
[SPEAKER_03]: The honeymoon period will typically last for about six to 12 months, sometimes up to two years, but even neurochemically, like the neurotransmitters that are being released in our brains when we're meeting a new person falling in love with them, those can only last for about six to 12 months.
13:34
[SPEAKER_03]: So it's not just that life gets more complicated and, you know, all these other factors come into
13:43
[SPEAKER_03]: of maintaining that level of intensity for longer than a year max.
13:47
[SPEAKER_02]: Interesting.
13:48
[SPEAKER_01]: That makes a lot of sense.
13:49
[SPEAKER_01]: I used to just blame it on life happening, which you're saying it is a contributor to all of it, but we're just also not built to be hot and heavy forever.
13:58
[SPEAKER_01]: That's good because then we'd be exhausted.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So that's good to know.
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[SPEAKER_03]: It's different for every couple.
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[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, some couples will get into that slow down and feel like, okay, this just feels like the natural progression.
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[SPEAKER_03]: We're all right with this.
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[SPEAKER_03]: For us, it felt like a pretty sudden and intense change.
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[SPEAKER_03]: And it didn't feel healthy.
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[SPEAKER_03]: It didn't feel normal.
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[SPEAKER_03]: Suppress it did feel like a problem.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I mean, it really felt like a big elephant in the room.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Like, I think that that's kind of a good barometer.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Like, does it feel like there's a lot going on spoken between you?
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[SPEAKER_00]: Is there this?
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[SPEAKER_00]: kind of big awkward thing or it's like we kind of know this is an issue, but we don't want to acknowledge it, and that was absolutely what was going on for the two of us.
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[SPEAKER_00]: But yeah, I mean, there are, like Vanessa said, there's plenty of couples where it's like, okay, yeah, those first couple months were exhausting and now we're
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[SPEAKER_00]: We're ready to slow down and we're totally happy with that.
14:54
[SPEAKER_00]: Like if that happens, that's great.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Like you guys are on the same page.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, it's good still to be able to acknowledge that.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Hey, are we both still feeling on the same page about, you know, the way that things are, you know, we're easing into a new pattern.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And as long as you're cool with that, then awesome.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Like you're on the same page.
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[SPEAKER_00]: But yeah, for us,
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[SPEAKER_00]: you know, we were struggling to have conversations about whether we were on the same page and doing so is pretty clear that we weren't on the same page.
15:19
[SPEAKER_02]: So how long did you kind of dance around this until you decided to talk about it?
15:24
[SPEAKER_03]: It took months and you know, I was the one who was wanting to talk about it more.
15:29
[SPEAKER_03]: I was wanting us to go to therapy and try to figure out what to do.
15:33
[SPEAKER_03]: And Zander was really hesitant, he wasn't ready.
15:37
[SPEAKER_03]: And so that's something that we talk about in the book, acknowledging that couples are always going to be on different timelines with this.
15:43
[SPEAKER_03]: It would be great if, you know, one person could say, hey, can we go to therapy?
15:47
[SPEAKER_03]: Another person's like, I'm right there with you.
15:49
[SPEAKER_03]: Let's do it.
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[SPEAKER_03]: But that's just so rare.
15:51
[SPEAKER_03]: So we've been through that of what it was like to have one partner wanting to work on it and the other not.
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[SPEAKER_03]: And yeah, I wanted to give resources for couples who are in that same situation.
16:03
[SPEAKER_01]: and then how did it finally happen?
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[SPEAKER_01]: How did the conversations start flowing?
16:08
[SPEAKER_03]: I kept telling Zander that I wanted to go to therapy, and so eventually it took a couple of months to be honest, and it was a painful period of time for us, but we did end up going to therapy, and to be totally honest with you, it was fine.
16:21
[SPEAKER_03]: We got like a few resources and a few tools and it ended up being like just enough to get the ball rolling for us.
16:29
[SPEAKER_03]: But we realized through many, many years of like continuing to have these conversations and building up this business together, we started to realize, ah, there's gotta be a better way.
16:40
[SPEAKER_03]: to it.
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[SPEAKER_03]: We need more resources about how to have these conversations.
16:44
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh yeah, because one of those reasons is that typically, you know, couple goes to a marriage and family therapist and, you know, you assume like marriage and family therapist, like sex has got to be a normal topic, but the reality is is, I mean, like how much education and sex did you have to get to get your MFT?
17:02
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, to become licensed as a therapist, I had to do a one-unit class on some sexuality.
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[SPEAKER_03]: We're basically all we did was learn the proper anatomical names for things.
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[SPEAKER_03]: That's a penis.
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[SPEAKER_03]: That's of a giant egg grave.
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[SPEAKER_03]: You can ask your one-unit class.
17:15
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, so on for you, we learned that, oh, yeah, most therapists.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Them cells are not super comfortable talking about this because there aren't a lot of resources out there.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And that's, you know, in the community.
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[SPEAKER_03]: Therapist are human too.
17:27
[SPEAKER_00]: Partially, the inspiration for us doing what we're doing.
17:31
[SPEAKER_02]: Like I guess what made you decide to talk to someone a therapist like go down that route versus try on your own to have those conversations.
17:39
[SPEAKER_02]: Was it just going in circles?
17:41
[SPEAKER_02]: Did you not know where to start?
17:43
[SPEAKER_02]: Like what did that look like?
17:44
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I started initiating those conversations and it just went in circles because I was asking like what I can see now is I was asking the wrong questions.
17:53
[SPEAKER_03]: I was asking things like, why don't you ever want to have sex with me?
17:56
[SPEAKER_03]: Why aren't we having sex very often?
17:57
[SPEAKER_03]: And those kinds of questions obviously, you know, would just put him on the defensive, make him feel like he's the problem.
18:04
[SPEAKER_03]: There's something that he needs to fix about himself, which, of course, felt very scary and made you want to shut down and not want to talk about it more.
18:12
[SPEAKER_03]: So I tried myself and then realized this isn't going anywhere and as somebody who was training to be at therapist, I thought, okay, let's see if therapy can be a better model, but yeah, it was still a struggle for us.
18:24
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah and I think in therapy our therapist was able to help us try to look at it as more of a team effort that was going to be required that it's not just when this is happening it's never just one person's problem that they need to fix and it's really easy for us to get into that headspace where it's like hey I'm on the problem you're the problem right
18:44
[SPEAKER_00]: Go fix the problem and then yeah, but that's not what a partnership is all about like a partnership.
18:50
[SPEAKER_00]: It's a partnership like you have to do things together And so it was really helpful for us to have that reframe of okay.
18:58
[SPEAKER_00]: This is something that both of us
19:00
[SPEAKER_00]: can work on is not just a matter of like oh I want sex less than she does right now in the season of life and I just need to find a way to you know boost that desire.
19:09
[SPEAKER_01]: Well I feel like this is such an essential conversation because the reframe is what will get us out of this guilt mindset like I'm the one with less sexual desire.
19:20
[SPEAKER_01]: I feel so guilty about that.
19:22
[SPEAKER_01]: I should really find ways to be more sexually active.
19:26
[SPEAKER_01]: But I thought this was so fascinating.
19:28
[SPEAKER_01]: 73% of your Instagram audience said that they wanted higher sex drive.
19:33
[SPEAKER_01]: But then very few of them wanted to do something about it.
19:37
[SPEAKER_01]: And you asked why do you want a higher sex drive?
19:40
[SPEAKER_01]: Most people were saying that they wanted to please their partner
19:43
[SPEAKER_01]: or they want to bring up their sex drive so that they can be the equal level.
19:48
[SPEAKER_01]: There was a lot of just guilt and responsibility tied to it.
19:51
[SPEAKER_01]: Can you give us more of these learnings?
19:53
[SPEAKER_01]: Because I was like, this is I open it down.
19:56
[SPEAKER_03]: We're taught to believe that the higher the sex drive, the better, the more sex we're having, the better.
20:02
[SPEAKER_03]: And definitely if you feel like there's a mismatch,
20:04
[SPEAKER_03]: in your relationship, the person with the lower sex drive very often blames himself.
20:09
[SPEAKER_03]: It's my fault.
20:10
[SPEAKER_03]: And so we always like to say there is no one correct sex drive that everybody should be having, and it's really important for us to dig deeper into this.
20:20
[SPEAKER_03]: It's
20:21
[SPEAKER_03]: easy to say, yeah, I want to have a higher sex drive, you know, there are so many things in life that we would want if we could just snap our fingers and get it.
20:27
[SPEAKER_03]: But we want to dig deeper and identify what are the actual root causes that are going on.
20:33
[SPEAKER_03]: So with sex drive, there are so many factors that can affect it.
20:38
[SPEAKER_03]: And we need to have that curiosity about it.
20:41
[SPEAKER_03]: So here's one great example.
20:43
[SPEAKER_03]: Our desire for sex is very heavily tied into our enjoyment.
20:48
[SPEAKER_03]: of sex.
20:49
[SPEAKER_03]: And this is something that so many people do not connect until they hear it laid out like that.
20:54
[SPEAKER_03]: Like if you're having sex that feels kind of predictable, if it feels like it's more about your partner's pleasure, then for you, there's very little in it for you.
21:04
[SPEAKER_03]: Why would you
21:05
[SPEAKER_03]: that experience.
21:06
[SPEAKER_03]: Right.
21:07
[SPEAKER_03]: So if you look at couples who have a mismatch in desire, very often what is at the root of the issue is that there's a mismatch in the level of pleasure that they're getting.
21:17
[SPEAKER_02]: And no one wants to ever say that.
21:20
[SPEAKER_02]: It's just the other person's problem.
21:21
[SPEAKER_03]: Right.
21:23
[SPEAKER_03]: Exactly.
21:24
[SPEAKER_03]: So yeah, so that is, of course, a sensitive conversation.
21:26
[SPEAKER_03]: A lot of people then leap ahead to, oh my god, now I have to go tell my partner like, you suck at sex and you need to get better.
21:32
[SPEAKER_03]: I just like, that is not our advice, don't worry, because once you give ways, that's why the whole fourth conversation in sex talks is all about pleasure.
21:41
[SPEAKER_03]: We wanted to give exercises and frameworks for couples to explore what brings them pleasure.
21:47
[SPEAKER_03]: and talk about it in ways that feel fun and exciting rather than critical.
21:52
[SPEAKER_00]: I think one of the big problems, though, is that, you know, everyone wants to know, like, okay, look, what do we do if our desires are mismatched and so then we start talking about the desire enjoyment connection.
22:03
[SPEAKER_00]: And then you quickly understand and go, okay, I see what's going on, but this is way too complicated of conversation to have.
22:10
[SPEAKER_00]: And so, I mean, that's one of the big reasons why we wrote this book, because we were like, okay, these are really important
22:17
[SPEAKER_00]: but these can't be the first conversations that you have.
22:20
[SPEAKER_00]: That's way too hard.
22:22
[SPEAKER_00]: And so we try to back it way, way up in our book and start with really, really simple things like just simply acknowledging that, hey, sex is a thing and we have it.
22:33
[SPEAKER_00]: Let's start talking positively about sex.
22:35
[SPEAKER_00]: Let's talk about the fact that it's something that we do.
22:38
[SPEAKER_00]: Let's give each other some simple basic compliments about sex.
22:42
[SPEAKER_00]: Just so that we start feeling more comfortable with sex as like an everyday topic of conversation.
22:47
[SPEAKER_00]: And so that way sex becomes a safe topic.
22:50
[SPEAKER_00]: And then we can start building on those conversations until we can get to that pleasure conversation and really kind of get to the meat or the heart of it.
22:59
[SPEAKER_02]: So I want to go through that because that's the core of your book, right?
23:03
[SPEAKER_02]: And I know Vanessa, you said that when you first had the conversation, you asked all the wrong things and you went about it, it not the best way.
23:11
[SPEAKER_02]: So clearly these five essential talks that you're putting out there in the book is what you learned from that experience and all your work, can you kind of walk us through the five and why they're so important?
23:23
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, so we came up with the five conversations that we think every couple needs to have in order to have extraordinary sex.
23:30
[SPEAKER_03]: And we laid them out in a really specific order that we think is going to be the most approachable and the most fun.
23:36
[SPEAKER_03]: So in the book, we start with acknowledgment.
23:39
[SPEAKER_03]: Sex is a thing.
23:40
[SPEAKER_03]: We have it.
23:41
[SPEAKER_03]: We're getting comfortable with it as a topic of conversation.
23:44
[SPEAKER_03]: Then we move into connection.
23:46
[SPEAKER_03]: What do we need to feel emotionally connected to each other throughout the day so that we feel that openness to be intimate with each other?
23:54
[SPEAKER_03]: Next is desire.
23:56
[SPEAKER_03]: What do we each need to feel turned on to feel excited about being intimate?
24:00
[SPEAKER_03]: Then we have pleasure.
24:02
[SPEAKER_03]: What do we need to enjoy the experience to make sure it's satisfactory for both of us?
24:08
[SPEAKER_03]: And then finally we have exploration.
24:10
[SPEAKER_03]: What do we want to try next?
24:12
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, I like that because it progresses, uh, exactly to the next time, which is very nice because you have something to look forward to.
24:20
[SPEAKER_01]: So I'm getting this right.
24:22
[SPEAKER_01]: First, you set the foundation, creating a safe space to talk about sex, which I think is a step many couples missed.
24:28
[SPEAKER_01]: I certainly miss that in previous relationships.
24:31
[SPEAKER_01]: It's almost like you go straight into what are your fetishes.
24:34
[SPEAKER_01]: What are your cakes?
24:36
[SPEAKER_01]: What are you into?
24:37
[SPEAKER_01]: You want to do this upside down?
24:38
[SPEAKER_01]: You want to try this new tool?
24:41
[SPEAKER_02]: Let's go to step one.
24:42
[SPEAKER_01]: Let's talk about the sex we're having first.
24:46
[SPEAKER_01]: And then you start building upon that.
24:48
[SPEAKER_01]: with how do we start talking about having sex with each other?
24:52
[SPEAKER_01]: Then how do we start wanting to have sex with each other?
24:55
[SPEAKER_01]: And how do we make it the best sexual experience possible?
24:58
[SPEAKER_01]: So then we keep wanting more.
25:00
[SPEAKER_01]: So you just keep building and building and building.
25:02
[SPEAKER_01]: I really love that.
25:04
[SPEAKER_01]: I understand acknowledgement talking about sex is a thing.
25:06
[SPEAKER_01]: What are the ways a couple can connect better with each other as a second step?
25:11
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I love that you gave that example because that is a big issue that a lot of couples come up against is that we jump right into the deep end with what's your fantasy and what's your king or we wait until there's a really big problem with our sex life and just like I went into it was the end or why are we not doing this?
25:27
[SPEAKER_03]: Why don't you want me and it only makes sex feel like this dangerous and you know unsafe conversation to have not a fun one certainly.
25:35
[SPEAKER_03]: So that's why we start with acknowledgement.
25:37
[SPEAKER_03]: And then we move into emotional connection next because a lot of us have this tendency to compartmentalize our sex life.
25:45
[SPEAKER_03]: We think of sex.
25:45
[SPEAKER_03]: It's like, that's just that thing that we do in the bedroom at night.
25:48
[SPEAKER_03]: We only just talk about it.
25:50
[SPEAKER_03]: But the reality is that our desire for sex is very highly tied into how connected we feel to our partner on a day-to-day basis.
26:00
[SPEAKER_03]: And especially in long-term relationships, so many couples tell us
26:03
[SPEAKER_03]: We feel like we've moved more into roommates rather than romantic partners.
26:08
[SPEAKER_03]: We don't spend very much quality time together.
26:11
[SPEAKER_03]: We're kind of like two ships passing in the night.
26:13
[SPEAKER_03]: So if you're feeling so disconnected from your partner, the idea of leaping into having sex with them, feels very jarring.
26:21
[SPEAKER_03]: It feels kind of scary even sometimes.
26:24
[SPEAKER_03]: We're so disconnected.
26:25
[SPEAKER_03]: Why would I want to go to that maximum level of connection?
26:28
[SPEAKER_03]: So we wanted to help couples come up with very
26:32
[SPEAKER_03]: to keep that connection going throughout the day.
26:35
[SPEAKER_03]: So not only are you going to feel more open to having sex, but your relationship is just also going to feel better, too.
26:42
[SPEAKER_02]: I think what are the things that's interesting that you said is that we put sex in like its own corner and don't think about it.
26:49
[SPEAKER_02]: We do this podcast about modern dating and a lot of people that aren't in relationships, like they're thinking there's so many other hurdles I have to get over to find a partner and now I have to worry about like sex stop being good, too.
27:01
[SPEAKER_02]: And I can hear people saying that and I think that's why a lot of times we avoid it.
27:06
[SPEAKER_02]: I think also like avoid the conversation because it's challenging.
27:09
[SPEAKER_02]: But like why do you think it is so important to have these talks when things haven't gotten to the place of just like really bad?
27:17
[SPEAKER_02]: You're coming now for like a place of defensiveness.
27:20
[SPEAKER_03]: you're going to get to a tough point with your sex life at some point in your relationship.
27:25
[SPEAKER_03]: It's pretty inevitable every couple has some sort of hang up and if we don't have that foundation of talking about sex from the earlier parts of a relationship, it's going to be so much harder to have those tough conversations when they do come up.
27:39
[SPEAKER_03]: And not only that, but the point that we really want to make in the book is that talking about sex can be fun.
27:45
[SPEAKER_03]: It can feel very sexy, it can feel flirtatious, it can bring back that feeling of the butterflies that we missed from those early stages of our relationship.
27:55
[SPEAKER_03]: So it's not that it's this thing that we all have to work on.
27:58
[SPEAKER_03]: And okay, I'm going to talk about sex.
28:00
[SPEAKER_03]: Just like I'm going to brush my teeth twice a day and make sure I'm flossing.
28:08
[SPEAKER_00]: and I also think like if you are in the very early stages of a relationship or if you're dating, um, picking up this book and getting an understanding of what these conversations are the way that we have it laid out at the beginning they're very easy and approachable conversations.
28:24
[SPEAKER_00]: that you could just very casually slip in the conversation.
28:28
[SPEAKER_00]: It's a great way, as you're getting to know them in terms of like, what are they're in, Chris?
28:32
[SPEAKER_00]: What are they into?
28:33
[SPEAKER_00]: Do our values align?
28:34
[SPEAKER_00]: You can also kind of be gauging.
28:36
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, do our compatible, do our, does our sexual compatibility align?
28:40
[SPEAKER_00]: And as you weave those conversations into getting to know someone, like, you are already setting that foundation without ever needing to have that,
28:49
[SPEAKER_00]: Hey, we got to sit down and we got to figure out this sex thing, like you're just going to be setting yourself up for success from the very beginning.
28:55
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it just becomes part of your normal conversation.
28:59
[SPEAKER_01]: You don't need to set time just for that.
29:02
[SPEAKER_01]: What do you think about scheduling sex?
29:04
[SPEAKER_01]: Is that the ultimate libido killer?
29:08
[SPEAKER_03]: That's always the big question people want to know.
29:17
[SPEAKER_00]: because there is definitely many wrong ways to do it that can probably be more harmful to your relationship and good.
29:23
[SPEAKER_03]: A lot of us think about scheduling sex and we imagine, you know, we have to put it in our calendar, we're making, we're signing a contract, this guarantee that we're going to do it.
29:31
[SPEAKER_03]: And we feel this sense of dread around it.
29:33
[SPEAKER_03]: Like, oh, God, Wednesday's coming.
29:35
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm going to have to do it.
29:37
[SPEAKER_03]: So if you schedule it that way, that is not going to be fun and, you know, having sex forcing yourself to have sex to meet some sort of quota, that's not going to be fun.
29:46
[SPEAKER_03]: But I think scheduling can be done in a very different sort of way.
29:49
[SPEAKER_03]: So I love to walk people back to thinking about the early stages in your relationship.
29:55
[SPEAKER_03]: So, Zander and I met on a Saturday, what did we do?
29:58
[SPEAKER_03]: We scheduled a date for Monday.
30:00
[SPEAKER_00]: We tried to schedule a date for Sunday, didn't work out, so we scheduled one for Monday.
30:06
[SPEAKER_03]: we scheduled the date for Wednesday.
30:08
[SPEAKER_03]: We scheduled the date for Friday.
30:10
[SPEAKER_03]: Once we started having sex with each other, there was a pretty clear understanding that when we were scheduling a date, like sex was going to happen on that.
30:18
[SPEAKER_03]: And when I was back in those times, like, I was excited about that scheduled time.
30:24
[SPEAKER_03]: I was looking forward to it.
30:25
[SPEAKER_03]: I was anticipating it.
30:26
[SPEAKER_03]: I was getting my
30:30
[SPEAKER_03]: And so it's the same sort of thing.
30:32
[SPEAKER_03]: We were scheduling time together.
30:35
[SPEAKER_03]: So it's not that all of a sudden, now it takes so much more effort to be intimate, but it's that our attitude about that effort has changed.
30:43
[SPEAKER_03]: So if we can think about having fun scheduling it, that can make all the difference in the world.
30:49
[SPEAKER_03]: And one super practical thing that people could do right away with this is change the word.
30:54
[SPEAKER_03]: a lot of us don't like schedule.
30:55
[SPEAKER_03]: It does do a lot of you list.
30:57
[SPEAKER_03]: It's a suit.
30:58
[SPEAKER_03]: So it's a date night.
30:59
[SPEAKER_03]: You're going to have a date night instead or maybe there's some sort of cute inside joke between the two of you that you can say like it's our you know special but but we sit on your videos.
31:08
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah but that's real sexy.
31:13
[SPEAKER_03]: We love encouraging people to plan for intimacy because the reality is, our lives are busy.
31:19
[SPEAKER_03]: And if we don't make a plan for something, it's likely not going to happen.
31:24
[SPEAKER_03]: And most of us are really prioritizing work and chores and other responsibilities over quality time with our partner.
31:32
[SPEAKER_03]: So if we can take that approach of, you're just as important to me as the other appointments that I have on my calendar, I want to carve out time to be with you.
31:41
[SPEAKER_03]: then that's going to have a totally different vibe to it.
31:44
[SPEAKER_00]: And another really good word swap is you can say, let's schedule or let's plan intimacy rather than snacks because I think when you use the word sacks especially in male female relationships, we tend to assume that sex means inner course.
31:59
[SPEAKER_00]: which can feel like, you know, a lot to commit to or it can feel like a high bar.
32:04
[SPEAKER_00]: We always like to say that, you know, we think sex can really be any type of intimate activity.
32:10
[SPEAKER_00]: There's no definition of those sex has to be intercourse.
32:13
[SPEAKER_00]: So, you know, when Vanessa and I say schedule sex, we're meaning scheduling.
32:17
[SPEAKER_00]: any type of physical intimacy, but it can be really helpful for, you know, you to break whatever association you have without to say, let's schedule intimacy, let's have an intimacy date, and that way you're not thinking, oh, I like, I have to perform, I have to, I have to commit to this, I have to guarantee this.
32:34
[SPEAKER_00]: I really like that.
32:36
[SPEAKER_02]: Like even take sex aside, but just even scheduling time.
32:40
[SPEAKER_02]: It's like in the week we'll just like watch TV and I'll be doing work and you know it just then you fall asleep on the couch and just makes it so easy to not have anything because you're just so comfortable.
32:51
[SPEAKER_02]: But we've actually talked about scheduling like okay Tuesday will be the day that we're like
32:57
[SPEAKER_02]: doing a date night, even if we don't leave the house.
32:59
[SPEAKER_02]: So this is the same idea.
33:01
[SPEAKER_02]: And I really like that.
33:02
[SPEAKER_02]: I think it resonates a lot.
33:04
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, for too many of us, our quality time has turned into.
33:08
[SPEAKER_03]: We're both on our phone scrolling through Instagram.
33:12
[SPEAKER_03]: We're watching Netflix and nobody's paying attention to anything and certainly not to reach out there.
33:16
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
33:17
[SPEAKER_03]: So we think it's very important for couples to be intentional about spending quality time together.
33:22
[SPEAKER_03]: It's just so easy for us to get sucked into the
33:26
[SPEAKER_03]: We need to have the moments that feel special and that remind us of why we fell in love with each other in the first place and we didn't fall in love You know those that Monday when say Friday dates those were not sit on the couch watching Netflix No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no,
33:53
[SPEAKER_01]: You mentioned that there's always going to be mismatch sex drive in a partnership.
33:58
[SPEAKER_01]: So someone's always technically getting rejected, right?
34:02
[SPEAKER_01]: Quote on quote, someone saying, no, I'm too tired of this.
34:05
[SPEAKER_01]: How do you advise couples like the person on the receiving end?
34:09
[SPEAKER_01]: How would someone handle rejection?
34:12
[SPEAKER_01]: How should rejection be done differently?
34:14
[SPEAKER_03]: Our favorite tip for this is that when you are turning your partner down for sex to give them a specific reason and tie that into how you would like to show up during sex with them.
34:26
[SPEAKER_03]: So we've all heard like, oh, I'm too tired.
34:28
[SPEAKER_03]: I have a headache and that feels kind of like a fake excuse, right?
34:31
[SPEAKER_03]: If I were to say to Zander, like, I appreciate that you initiated.
34:35
[SPEAKER_03]: I am so exhausted from this day that I'm just worried that I'm not going to be able to be present with you.
34:41
[SPEAKER_03]: in the way that I really want to be so that we can have fun and have a great experience.
34:46
[SPEAKER_03]: Could we try again tomorrow or something like that?
34:48
[SPEAKER_03]: Like when I tie it to, I'm not going to be able to show up in the way that I want it to.
34:53
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm making it really clear to him that it's about having an enjoyable experience, not just about like, I have a headache and I don't want to.
35:01
[SPEAKER_00]: And then like a bonus thing you can do on top of that if you're open to it is offer something different like I'm not up for sex.
35:09
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm not up for intercourse or whatever it is that's being initiated.
35:13
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm not up for that, but I would like to feel some connection with you because the reality is we have sex to feel connected with each other.
35:20
[SPEAKER_00]: So you know, would you be open to we snuggle on the couch for a couple of minutes.
35:25
[SPEAKER_00]: before bed or we go on a walk together because I think that the rejection it can kind of be a double whammy because it's like, okay, they're turning me down for sex and then it's awkward and like we don't have any opportunity for action.
35:39
[SPEAKER_00]: So it's like I'm being turned down.
35:41
[SPEAKER_00]: for sex and connection.
35:43
[SPEAKER_00]: And so, yeah, can we pivot that into, hey, here's why I'm not up for it.
35:48
[SPEAKER_00]: It has nothing to do with you.
35:50
[SPEAKER_00]: How about we do, you know, something else that's going to feel good.
35:53
[SPEAKER_00]: Maybe it won't feel as good, but it will feel at all of a lot better than sitting there awkward and like, oh, I guess I'm just going to go back to my phone.
36:02
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I think that's so key though.
36:04
[SPEAKER_02]: It's kind of like actually reminds me of early dating right when someone has to cancel when you offer that next day Yeah, to do something or an alternative.
36:12
[SPEAKER_02]: It's such a better outcome that just being like, oh, yeah I need to reschedule and then just never do we get anything
36:19
[SPEAKER_03]: So another practical tip that people can do that we've done this in our own relationship is if one of us is gonna say no to sex, then we sort of have this agreement that if I say no, I've got like 48 hours to initiate sex with Zanne.
36:32
[SPEAKER_03]: Oh, it doesn't have to be like a commitment.
36:35
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm not gonna get in trouble if I don't do it.
36:37
[SPEAKER_03]: But it's this recognition that, hey, Zanne, they're initiated and I said no.
36:41
[SPEAKER_03]: He was vulnerable.
36:42
[SPEAKER_03]: He's now having to deal with a little bit of feeling of rejection.
36:45
[SPEAKER_03]: And so I'm going to show him your important to me, our sex life is important to me.
36:49
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm going to take on that role of being vulnerable and initiating something with you and reminding you that sex is important to me too.
36:56
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, that's lovely because then you're saying not today, but I still want to be intimate with you and I still want to be enjoy this experience with you.
37:05
[SPEAKER_01]: So I like this offering up this other alternative.
37:08
[SPEAKER_01]: You could be like not today, but do you want to get choked?
37:10
[SPEAKER_01]: Like is that an option?
37:13
[SPEAKER_01]: I know a few friends who are in very low sex drive relationships and they're constantly kind of like asking me do you think it's because they have the same sex drive with their partner which is no sex drive or low sex drive.
37:27
[SPEAKER_01]: They ask me like do you think there's a problem but they don't feel like it's a problem in their relationship.
37:32
[SPEAKER_03]: I don't think there's any one amount of sex that we should all be having.
37:37
[SPEAKER_03]: That couple feels like, yeah, we're happy with having it infrequently or we're in a season in life where it's just not a big priority to us.
37:45
[SPEAKER_03]: As long as that couple is communicating with each other and they're both on board with it, I think that's totally fine.
37:50
[SPEAKER_03]: That's just that is a part of life sometimes.
37:53
[SPEAKER_03]: So I think the key is to make sure that you're having that conversation repeatedly.
37:57
[SPEAKER_03]: So maybe it's let's check in again in six months and see if anything has changed.
38:02
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I think the mistake a lot of couples make is, you know, they might check in at one point in time and say they're both in a really busy season of life and it's like, okay, cool, like we're both cool with this, but then six months later, one partner just assumes, okay, yeah, we're just continuing on like that and the other partners like
38:19
[SPEAKER_00]: Hey, I'm feeling different, but like what I do, and it's those moments where we're not communicating about it or not acknowledging it that it's so easy to start creating stories in our mind of like, oh, well, they must not be into me anymore.
38:32
[SPEAKER_00]: There must be something wrong.
38:34
[SPEAKER_00]: Whereas the other partners just like, hey, we talked about this.
38:37
[SPEAKER_00]: I thought we were good.
38:38
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, that's why sex is such like the barometer for so much more, right?
38:42
[SPEAKER_02]: And there's so much like of our own personal ties to it and self-worth.
38:46
[SPEAKER_02]: How do you go about actually having these conversations like logistically?
38:51
[SPEAKER_02]: Like do you do this like after sex before sex?
38:55
[SPEAKER_02]: In the middle of the afternoon with sex is not on the table.
38:57
[SPEAKER_02]: Like what's the logistics look like?
39:01
[SPEAKER_03]: In each of the conversations in sex talks, we talk specifically about when and how to have that conversation.
39:06
[SPEAKER_03]: We want to be really clear for people because it is very different.
39:10
[SPEAKER_03]: So something for the acknowledgment conversation, you can have those kinds of conversations really any time.
39:15
[SPEAKER_03]: And like for Zander and I.
39:17
[SPEAKER_03]: This is turned into flirting for us.
39:19
[SPEAKER_03]: So we'll bring up sex at a random time during the day.
39:21
[SPEAKER_03]: We'll make like a little sexual joke or an in-uendo.
39:24
[SPEAKER_03]: We'll recall a favorite memory and it just feels like this way that we keep that tension alive between the two of us.
39:30
[SPEAKER_03]: But let's contrast that with something like
39:32
[SPEAKER_03]: pleasure if you want to talk to your partner about something that you're wanting differently in the bedroom then that's a conversation we recommend having outside of the bedroom completely separate from when you've had sex because it is so easy for a partner to take that personally.
39:47
[SPEAKER_03]: So if you were to just have sex and then you're telling your partner
39:50
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, actually, I love that move that you're doing.
39:53
[SPEAKER_01]: It's going to be more sensitive to it, so that one is a different time.
39:58
[SPEAKER_01]: What about, you know, we can talk about sex, but there's also sexual talking, like dirty talk.
40:03
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, how can couples introduce dirty talk?
40:06
[SPEAKER_01]: into their sex life.
40:07
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, do you talk about, do you want that?
40:09
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, do you?
40:10
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, do you?
40:11
[SPEAKER_01]: What is dirty talk to you?
40:13
[SPEAKER_03]: Well, that fits into conversation five exploration.
40:18
[SPEAKER_03]: So we have this great exercise in the chapter that gives you this huge list.
40:22
[SPEAKER_03]: It's like a sexual bucket list of all, like, not all, but a huge list of things that you could try in the bedroom.
40:28
[SPEAKER_03]: And it's this really fun exercise where you get to fill it separately and then talk to each other and compare your answers.
40:34
[SPEAKER_03]: So dirty talk is on that list.
40:36
[SPEAKER_03]: So the list is just a great way to kind of, you get to have these conversations, but you're sort of blaming it on the book.
40:42
[SPEAKER_03]: You're like, yeah, we just need to the exercise.
40:45
[SPEAKER_03]: Now we have to do it.
40:47
[SPEAKER_03]: So that's a great opportunity to check in with each other about is dirty talk something you like.
40:52
[SPEAKER_03]: Do you want to do a little bit more of it?
40:54
[SPEAKER_03]: Should we explore it?
40:55
[SPEAKER_00]: In terms of dirty talk, we actually have a dirty talk 101 guy that we sell because I think dirty talk is a very misunderstood thing.
41:06
[SPEAKER_00]: Some people do it without any issues.
41:08
[SPEAKER_00]: It comes very natural to them, but I think a lot of us get really in our heads about dirty talk.
41:12
[SPEAKER_00]: We have an idea that it's supposed to be a certain way.
41:16
[SPEAKER_00]: This only these very specific words that we say,
41:19
[SPEAKER_00]: we have to sound like a porn star or whatever it is.
41:22
[SPEAKER_00]: And the reality is, is that dirty talk it can be totally unique to you.
41:26
[SPEAKER_00]: Like you have your own voice, your own words that you, you know, certain words that you like, certain words that you don't like.
41:34
[SPEAKER_00]: And what we do in that guide is we really guide people through identifying your own authentic dirty talk voice and figuring out, okay,
41:42
[SPEAKER_00]: I like these words for these body parts.
41:44
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't like these words for these body parts.
41:47
[SPEAKER_00]: Here, ways that I can start stringing these together, so that it doesn't feel like, oh, I just have to show up as this totally different person.
41:55
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, it should be something that's totally authentic to you, and just a natural part of the experience, rather than a, oh, tonight we're doing Dirty Talk.
42:03
[SPEAKER_00]: But tomorrow.
42:05
[SPEAKER_02]: I feel like I need your guide because I feel like I'm always super awkward and I feel like I'm saying things that don't feel like true to myself.
42:13
[SPEAKER_02]: So I will get that guide for effects.
42:15
[SPEAKER_01]: I've never dirty talked and not laughed after.
42:18
[SPEAKER_01]: It just feels so silly.
42:20
[SPEAKER_03]: It feels like we have exercises in the guide for how do you have it all?
42:24
[SPEAKER_03]: You have it all.
42:25
[SPEAKER_03]: You have it all.
42:26
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, we just love like breaking down the parts of sex that we all feel like we should be good at already And we're showing you like it's okay.
42:34
[SPEAKER_03]: We've got tons of fun tips and techniques and we'll look I'd eat through it all
42:38
[SPEAKER_02]: So a lot of our listeners aren't in relationships and I love what you said earlier, Zander, that this can be a way to learn more about your compatibility by having these conversations.
42:51
[SPEAKER_02]: I feel like though it can be a little tricky sometimes with someone that you don't know well of how to even brooch this in a way that they're gonna feel like you're not just like looking to hook up and that's all you want or
43:03
[SPEAKER_02]: Basically, what's the way that makes them receptive when you don't really know how they operate fully?
43:09
[SPEAKER_03]: I got a great first question for you.
43:11
[SPEAKER_03]: You can just ask that person, how do you feel talking about sex?
43:15
[SPEAKER_03]: How comfortable do you feel talking about sex?
43:18
[SPEAKER_03]: So you're not bringing up some like, tell me your kinky as fans, you're going to be like, you're not a d-boy, you're a d-boy, you're a d-boy, you're a d-boy, you're a d-boy.
43:27
[SPEAKER_02]: And if you did it, that voice, that'd be really hard.
43:29
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, it would be like giving you this opportunity to talk about sex as a more general topic and see what comes up for that person.
43:39
[SPEAKER_03]: Another option could be, like, tell me what your experience was like getting the talk from your parents.
43:45
[SPEAKER_03]: I like that.
43:46
[SPEAKER_03]: That's going around in a little bit.
43:48
[SPEAKER_03]: It's not as a directive a question, but it's still- It's an opportunity to bond over.
43:52
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, you have very awkward experiences.
43:54
[SPEAKER_00]: Sex Ed, you could tell the same thing.
43:56
[SPEAKER_03]: Oh, I might need that sense of maybe the person says it was so awkward, but you know, I've put a lot of work into becoming more comfortable talking about it myself.
44:03
[SPEAKER_03]: I realize I want to have a very different kind of conversation with my future children or something like that.
44:08
[SPEAKER_03]: So it gives you a way to talk about sex without going into the logistical details of it yet.
44:13
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think if you were to ask that question of just like, how do you feel talking about sex, it allows you to then also bring up how you feel about having sex like relative to dating and how many dates you go on so that it's not this sort of like,
44:29
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, feeling each other out like, oh, okay.
44:31
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, is are we having a longer kiss like, oh, do we do we go back upstairs now?
44:36
[SPEAKER_00]: No, you know, they want to initiate me to initiate.
44:39
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, of course, it's going to feel awkward the first time you asked that question, but the more we lean into doing those awkward.
44:46
[SPEAKER_00]: things that last awkward they feel and if you think about the outcome of that awkwardness could be that you're able to really clearly state how you feel about sex and a new relationship and gauge how comfortable that person is how sexually compatible you might be without their being this elephant in the room of life.
45:05
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, how long are we waiting without ever talking about it?
45:08
[SPEAKER_01]: and on the opposite side of the spectrum for people who've been in long-term relationships, maybe like five plus years, and never really talked about sex, how would you advise them to start this conversation?
45:19
[SPEAKER_03]: With that acknowledgment conversations, with sharing, starting to share some of their favorite sexual memories with each other, so that you create that foundation of talking about it in a positive and neutral way.
45:32
[SPEAKER_03]: And I wanna normalize, you know, we have talked to so many people who've said, we've been together years,
45:36
[SPEAKER_03]: decades and we have never had a conversation about sex.
45:39
[SPEAKER_03]: So we want couples to know like it's okay.
45:42
[SPEAKER_03]: We're still going to ease you into it.
45:44
[SPEAKER_03]: But we still want to start on that positive note where we just start talking about some favorite memories together.
45:50
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I mean, so here's what you could do right now.
45:53
[SPEAKER_00]: Like you could pull out your phone.
45:54
[SPEAKER_00]: You could think about what is your favorite sexual memory with your partner?
45:58
[SPEAKER_00]: Just what's a really good
46:06
[SPEAKER_00]: came to mind it made me smile, made me think about you just wanted to let you know.
46:10
[SPEAKER_02]: I love that and see what happens No matter what stage of a relationship I think everyone should do that today.
46:17
[SPEAKER_03]: Like that's such a great way to put it up You're not making any complaints.
46:21
[SPEAKER_03]: You're not trying to solve anything.
46:23
[SPEAKER_03]: It's not at we need to talk kind of thing
46:26
[SPEAKER_03]: It's just giving your partner this experience of, oh, this can be fun and playful.
46:30
[SPEAKER_03]: And we can talk about it openly without it having to be a problem or a scary thing.
46:35
[SPEAKER_00]: And they're thinking about me.
46:36
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I have to be like, this is my part of that.
46:38
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm not kidding about me.
46:40
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, this conversation has been so waterfall.
46:43
[SPEAKER_02]: Thank you both for being here.
46:44
[SPEAKER_02]: But I think like, we'll be went into this conversation.
46:46
[SPEAKER_02]: I feel like there's this connotation, I guess this will lead me to my takeaways, is that we have to talk about sex when there's something wrong.
46:54
[SPEAKER_02]: And what I've gathered today here is that that is the furthest from the case like the actual truth of when you should talk about sex.
47:02
[SPEAKER_02]: The other thing that really struck home for me and this conversation is we always talk about other parts of the relationship where we're not aligned.
47:11
[SPEAKER_02]: Like when one person is ready to get engaged before the other or take what step into a relationship.
47:18
[SPEAKER_02]: move in together, whatever it may be, but we don't ever talk about like not being perfectly aligned with our sexual experience.
47:25
[SPEAKER_02]: And it's just another facet of the relationship.
47:28
[SPEAKER_02]: It's the same way that you would kind of go about, I like what you said earlier of like, it's neither of our problems.
47:35
[SPEAKER_02]: It's us as a couple and something that we're working towards together.
47:39
[SPEAKER_02]: So even though it feels scary to talk about sex because it's so personal, how does it just become another aspect of your relationship that you're finding in middle ground and finding something that works for the two of you.
47:52
[SPEAKER_02]: So I think that's definitely been my outcome of this conversation is that there's never too early of a time to talk about it and it doesn't have to be so scary.
48:02
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm so glad that that's the takeaway because that's exactly the takeaway we want people to have when they read their books, sex stocks.
48:08
[SPEAKER_03]: And that's the other takeaway is get the book, sex talk.
48:12
[SPEAKER_01]: But also along the same lines is it's never too early.
48:15
[SPEAKER_01]: It's never too late.
48:16
[SPEAKER_01]: You can be having conversations throughout your relationship.
48:20
[SPEAKER_01]: But what I'm taking away is we shouldn't treat sex in its own silo.
48:25
[SPEAKER_01]: It's part of the relationship.
48:27
[SPEAKER_01]: Just as much as we talk about family planning, where we're going to buy that next house and sex, our sex life is part of
48:33
[SPEAKER_01]: of all of that, we can normalize that just by talking about it.
48:36
[SPEAKER_01]: It could be that simple.
48:38
[SPEAKER_01]: It's my boggling to be like, it can be that simple.
48:40
[SPEAKER_01]: You just have to insert it into everyday conversation.
48:43
[SPEAKER_03]: And start is the perfect word.
48:45
[SPEAKER_03]: You just have to endure it.
48:47
[SPEAKER_03]: That's the takeaway.
48:50
[SPEAKER_01]: and I think the second biggest takeaway I have is it's good to have a conversation with your partner about the ideal sex life you want to build together because I do feel like at least for me and I'm sure in my previous relationships I was working towards a sex life that I thought my partner wanted us to have without
49:08
[SPEAKER_01]: talking about it, you know, it's like, right.
49:10
[SPEAKER_01]: No, I bet he would like it if we did this and that, probably the best opportunity is to talk about it and say, yeah, in a week, how much should we be having sex, what kind of sex do we want to be having, how do we want to enjoy ourselves in the bedroom?
49:25
[SPEAKER_01]: It's a great way to open up that conversation.
49:27
[SPEAKER_01]: So that's another major takeaway.
49:29
[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm so appreciating that just even us for talking about sex is already normalizing the conversation and the more people can share this episode with their friends, share the book sex talks with their friends and you've said it on your podcast too, the more we can share this with the people around us and normalizes a conversation and takes away the shame from sex.
49:53
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, if you gift this book to your friend, acknowledge us to your friend that you
49:58
[SPEAKER_01]: also have sex and you like to talk about sex.
50:01
[SPEAKER_01]: So it's a great way to again normalize sex conversations.
50:05
[SPEAKER_01]: So thank you for paving the way for that.
50:07
[SPEAKER_01]: If people want to get a hold of the book, where do they go?
50:10
[SPEAKER_03]: We have all the information about it at sextoxbook.com.
50:15
[SPEAKER_03]: So get all the links to purchase it, all kinds of extra stuff.
50:18
[SPEAKER_03]: So sextoxbook.com.
50:20
[SPEAKER_02]: Awesome.
50:21
[SPEAKER_02]: And we'll
50:23
[SPEAKER_03]: Thank you guys so much really appreciate you being willing to have these conversations with us because something that we all have to do together to work to overcome the shame, to normalize, completely normal things.
50:35
[SPEAKER_03]: So you appreciate you guys opening up that opportunity for us.
50:39
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and UA and I both have a homework assignment for today.
50:42
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, acknowledge me.
50:43
[SPEAKER_02]: That's the first step.
50:45
[SPEAKER_01]: That's the idea.
50:47
[SPEAKER_01]: Honestly, we got to have these conversations.
50:50
[SPEAKER_01]: We got to normalize the conversation.
50:51
[SPEAKER_01]: But if everyone is having the sex life that they want in this world, there'd be a lot less crime.
50:57
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, lot less violence.
51:00
[SPEAKER_01]: A lot less riffra.
51:01
[SPEAKER_01]: We are saving the world one bedroom.
51:03
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, we are.
51:09
[SPEAKER_01]: So thank you again for being on our show and if you haven't done so yet subscribe to the psychology of relationships today, so you don't miss an episode.
51:17
[SPEAKER_02]: Bye!