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Who Are We Beyond Social Conditioning? · Life In Flow Podcast

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_02: Welcome to the Life in Flow podcast.
• 0:03
  The three of us,
• 0:05
  Yulia,
• 0:05
  Polina,
• 0:06
  and Irina,
• 0:07
  are exploring what Life in Flow and Flow in Life is.
• 0:12
  Join us as we experiment,
• 0:15
  test our diverse hypotheses,
• 0:17
  and have fun in the process.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_00: Will we find an answer?
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_00: This isn't just an intellectual discussion.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_00: We're co-creating a shared field beyond words.
• 0:30
  We're attuning to what emerges moment by moment so that the
• 0:35
  conversation itself
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_00: becomes a group flow experience.
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_02: And we invite you to become an active participant in this experiment.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_02: There will be pauses and moments of silence.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_02: We leave them on purpose because this is where magic happens.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_02: Go beyond the intellectual information.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_02: Listen with your whole body.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_02: and notice how your somatic experience shifts in the process.
• 1:05
  Share with us what reveals itself in the space where mind,
• 1:11
  body,
• 1:12
  and energy flow together.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_02: Hello, and welcome to the next episode of the Life & Flow podcast.
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm here with my flow co-creators, Irina and Paulina, and...
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_02: Myself, Yulia, I'm going to be facilitating this episode.
• 1:41
  And the topic of this episode has to do with social
• 1:47
  conditioning and the impact
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_02: that it has on us being human,
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_02: on our human nature.
• 1:57
  And this question has been on my mind and in my body recently
• 2:04
  because I've been
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_02: traveling and I became very aware how...
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_02: different, sometimes radically different social conditioning can be.
• 2:21
  And at the same time,
• 2:23
  there is something that speaks beyond this social conditioning.
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_02: And super curious to explore this topic today.
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_02: As usual with minimum preparation and yeah, let's go.
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_02: So we will start,
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_02: as usually,
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_02: with a game where I suggest a word that Irina and Polina don't know.
• 2:56
  And we'll be coming up with some short stories or experiences
• 3:03
  or sensations that
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_02: emerge in response to this word or the other one sharing.
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_02: And the word that I have for us is zoo.
• 3:23
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, I can see surprise on the faces, but let's go.
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_02: Let's roll with it.
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_02: Zoo is the place with animals.
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_02: Well,
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_02: the first thing that comes to my mind is in the Barcelona Zoo,
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_02: we used to have the white gorilla.
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_02: Was he a gorilla or a chimpanzee?
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_02: Sounds like one of these humanoid monkeys, the big one.
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_02: I think he was a white gorilla.
• 4:09
  SPEAKER_02: Everyone loved him.
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_02: And actually, I don't have any story with him.
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_02: I just remembered him,
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_02: that he was white,
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_02: he was cute,
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_02: and everyone wanted to go to the zoo to look at him.
• 4:23
  SPEAKER_02: But he died a couple of years ago, unfortunately.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_00: So now no one goes to the zoo anymore?
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_02: I guess they do.
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_02: At least animals are still there and they still smell.
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_03: They still smell?
• 4:45
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_02: From time to time, when I go to the beach, I usually take a bike.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_02: And sometimes I take a route that goes, you know, bypasses the zoo.
• 4:58
  And so like the smell that goes from there is like very
• 5:03
  characteristic of the place
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_02: inhabited by a lot of animals.
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_00: You mentioned smell and I went straight to what that smell is,
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_00: even though I don't smell anything right now.
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_00: But like now in my nostrils, in my receptors, I can smell the zoo.
• 5:25
  What came up for me with the zoo first was excitement because I
• 5:30
  love animals and
• 5:32
  the furriness and like just I always want to touch every single
• 5:36
  animal and hug
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_00: every single animal.
• 5:39
  But then it very quickly changed to sadness because I really
• 5:44
  don't like to see all
• 5:47
  SPEAKER_00: these amazing beings alive.
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_00: Even in such an amazing zoo like the San Diego Zoo and Safari,
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_00: they really have really beautiful,
• 5:59
  SPEAKER_00: amazing setup for them.
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_00: But still, I get sad that they are not in their home environment.
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_00: They're not there by choice.
• 6:10
  And I'm always kind of straddling those two sensations or
• 6:19
  feelings in my body about it.
• 6:23
  Yeah,
• 6:23
  I think I share this,
• 6:28
  this feeling that,
• 6:31
  yeah,
• 6:32
  I usually feel really sad.
• 6:34
  I even feel sad when I see dogs on leashes really controlled by
• 6:43
  the owners and the
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_02: dogs are not really,
• 6:45
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_02: allowed to explore and to get to know the environment.
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and well, I'm going to share also a secret and a disclosure.
• 6:59
  This word came to mind as I was kind of brainstorming with
• 7:04
  myself,
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  which word should I use?
• 7:07
  SPEAKER_02: And I was going to use something like society,
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_02: for example,
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  SPEAKER_02: because this is the main instrument of our conditioning,
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_02: right?
• 7:16
  and then i remembered a while ago i read a book i actually
• 7:20
  haven't looked up the
• 7:22
  name of the book but the guy was saying he was making a
• 7:28
  comparison look at us
• 7:30
  humans we have created zoo for other animals and for lots of
• 7:36
  them like like you are
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_02: saying there are these really nice zoos where
• 7:43
  SPEAKER_02: Humans have made an effort to find out what it is that the animals need.
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_02: But he was saying, well, we humans also kind of live in a zoo.
• 7:55
  SPEAKER_02: But do we really know what we need and what's important to us?
• 8:02
  SPEAKER_02: And yeah, this I find is kind of a good thing.
• 8:09
  analogy of what we go through when we live in a civilized
• 8:15
  society there are
• 8:17
  certainly lots of good things but then some are not so good
• 8:27
  anything else that
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_02: comes to mind
• 8:33
  Talking about the dogs on the leashes and living in the society
• 8:39
  and social
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_02: conditioning,
• 8:41
  SPEAKER_02: I just remember my parents' dog who was...
• 8:56
  SPEAKER_02: I think it would be daring to say that he was not socially conditioned,
• 9:01
  SPEAKER_02: but he was definitely not educated.
• 9:03
  So it was very difficult to go out with him into the world
• 9:09
  without having him on
• 9:11
  SPEAKER_02: the leash,
• 9:11
  SPEAKER_02: because otherwise things were happening.
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_02: He was getting into the brawls and wanted to make love,
• 9:19
  SPEAKER_02: depending on what kind of dog he was meeting on the street.
• 9:25
  SPEAKER_02: And at the same time he was very... What's the word?
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_02: You're the only one who lost the words today.
• 9:41
  SPEAKER_02: So he was very bold.
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_02: And only was doing what he wanted to do.
• 9:49
  So I was seeing him on the leash and he didn't want to go where
• 9:54
  I wanted him to go.
• 9:56
  SPEAKER_02: He was just sitting there.
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_02: And we had this, like the tag of war.
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_02: fight.
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_02: Who will win?
• 10:07
  SPEAKER_02: Who is the alpha dog here?
• 10:09
  SPEAKER_02: The war kills, yeah.
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_02: The war for the title of the alpha dog.
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_02: In the end, he was always the alpha.
• 10:23
  yeah no that is a cool story i find like it's a good analogy um
• 10:27
  right of how we
• 10:30
  navigate life and um you know the many things that we want to
• 10:36
  do but maybe are not
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_02: doing because we're on an invisible leash
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_02: Or you're like,
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_02: when we are not on the leash,
• 10:49
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_02: like,
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_02: okay,
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_02: what will happen if we are not,
• 10:53
  SPEAKER_02: we allow ourselves to unleash ourselves?
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_02: Like, is it really possible?
• 10:58
  Because like,
• 11:00
  yeah,
• 11:01
  my dog wanted to make love to everyone and to fight everyone.
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_02: Is it really good for the environment and for him?
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_00: And maybe good weather.
• 11:14
  yeah but also what if he was allowed to do what he needs to do
• 11:17
  maybe uh he would
• 11:18
  get it out of his system and potentially shift into a more
• 11:24
  balanced being who knows
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_02: oh yes but he was not out of the system it was part of the system
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_00: I actually also always have the same thoughts about dogs on leashes.
• 11:43
  SPEAKER_00: And I,
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_00: whenever I catch myself in that,
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_00: thought and accompanying thoughts about that whole aspect,
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  I have to always pull myself back because it's really like a
• 11:57
  rabbit hole that I can
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_00: fall into because I get so upset about it.
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, the whole philosophical questions start coming up.
• 12:05
  SPEAKER_00: But...
• 12:07
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
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  SPEAKER_00: I mean,
• 12:07
  SPEAKER_00: it definitely,
• 12:09
  dogs on leashes go straight to social conditioning that humans
• 12:14
  have created.
• 12:14
  Yeah,
• 12:16
  well,
• 12:17
  that's an interesting introduction that we have created,
• 12:20
  so...
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_02: Thanks for playing.
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_02: And now I can go to the first question.
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_02: And the first question that I have for you and me,
• 12:31
  SPEAKER_02: what are the some of the best and maybe some of the worst roles,
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  SPEAKER_02: social roles that you have played?
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  SPEAKER_02: Or maybe you just can remember something that's fresh in your memory.
• 12:52
  I have a very philosophical answer that goes in line with some
• 13:00
  internal processes
• 13:01
  SPEAKER_02: that I'm living through these days.
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  Because for me,
• 13:09
  the best and the worst social role would be my role as a
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  daughter.
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_02: Because on one side, I'm a love child.
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_02: So I really have received a lot of love from my parents while growing up.
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  SPEAKER_02: And this love is something that gives me the resources and support
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  in the hard times that internally,
• 13:49
  I mean,
• 13:50
  like this is something that I can lean onto.
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  SPEAKER_02: But at the same time,
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  being loved that much also imposed on me certain conditions to
• 14:11
  satisfy the
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_02: expectations that were put on me.
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  SPEAKER_02: because of that love.
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  SPEAKER_02: And that pressure to satisfy someone else's expectations,
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  SPEAKER_02: even when someone else is like dear,
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_02: loved people,
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_02: this is also something that can turn into a nightmare and creates
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_02: for me,
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_02: a lot of blocks that really puts me in the inner prison,
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_02: I would say,
• 14:58
  SPEAKER_02: that I'm still struggling to get out of.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_02: So is it some kind of fear that makes up the walls of the prison?
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_02: I think if we think about it,
• 15:22
  it's always any kind of blocks and limitations account to some
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  kind of fear,
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_02: I think.
• 15:35
  In my case,
• 15:35
  yeah,
• 15:36
  it's the fear of being not enough,
• 15:40
  of not being really...
• 15:45
  not to correspond to the ideals that,
• 15:49
  in my head,
• 15:50
  the other people find me.
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_02: And also the fear to,
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_02: because of not corresponding to these ideals,
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_02: to create pain for other people.
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_03: Mm-hmm.
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_03: Mm-hmm.
• 16:11
  that really resonates for me and I'm not an only child yeah
• 16:23
  what was the question
• 16:24
  can you repeat it again so I can frame what is the social roles
• 16:29
  maybe some you
• 16:31
  enjoyed and some that you didn't enjoy or any social roles that
• 16:35
  you can speak to
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_02: that come to mind that you've played
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_00: Definitely,
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_00: as Ida described,
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_00: the social norms within the family system as being the,
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 16:46
  the eldest child and all of the accompanying expectations of
• 16:55
  like kind of leading
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_00: the way and success and
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_00: you know, creating family, all of that stuff that I've walked away from.
• 17:05
  And definitely this disappointment and the pain and the anger
• 17:10
  that has been caused,
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_00: not intentionally,
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_00: but unintentionally for the rest of the family unit,
• 17:17
  because I veered so so much outside of the norms of our culture
• 17:21
  and our society
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_00: and,
• 17:23
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_00: in every possible way,
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_00: almost.
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_00: And also, I guess, the cultural norms in terms of the workforce, right?
• 17:37
  How you're supposed to show up at work in order to be viewed a
• 17:42
  certain way.
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_00: How you're supposed to organize your life.
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_00: All of that, the supposed to...
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_00: were roles that I have tried on and consequently had to walk away from.
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_00: But is there a positive?
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_00: I'm trying to think, was there a positive experience?
• 18:13
  SPEAKER_00: I'm having a hard time coming up with a positive.
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_00: How about you, Yurt?
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_02: Okay,
• 18:19
  so most of the social experiences seem more like a stress or
• 18:25
  like a burden you have
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_02: to carry.
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah,
• 18:33
  SPEAKER_02: well,
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_02: I guess,
• 18:35
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_02: social experiences or social roles are about burdens to some extent.
• 18:42
  And it's kind of like,
• 18:43
  you know,
• 18:44
  paying for the fact that we have created the society.
• 18:51
  Yeah,
• 18:51
  I mean,
• 18:53
  the ones that are coming to mind also are not the most
• 18:59
  enjoyable ones.
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_02: I remember, for example,
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_02: Also in the family, my mom used to be like a role model.
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_02: And she also worked at school where I was a student.
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_02: And I was under constant pressure to perform, to do stuff.
• 19:25
  You know,
• 19:25
  sometimes even to the extent that I felt the responsibility to
• 19:32
  tell on others.
• 19:35
  you know like like like to oh look at him like he's been a bad
• 19:42
  boy um and um yeah
• 19:48
  that was like always getting good grades and being very active
• 19:55
  um like uh like i
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_02: can say politically active in the soviet system and um
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, what else?
• 20:05
  I mean,
• 20:06
  the roles related to being a woman are plenty,
• 20:10
  have been plenty in my life.
• 20:13
  Even now,
• 20:15
  I'm finding myself slightly adjusting because now I'm in
• 20:21
  Moscow,
• 20:22
  I'm in Russia.
• 20:24
  Also,
• 20:24
  I flew through Turkey,
• 20:25
  Istanbul,
• 20:26
  and you can sense immediately that you...
• 20:30
  Like somehow the expectations of you shift a little bit and the
• 20:36
  women around you
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_02: behave differently.
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_02: And the,
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_02: let's say,
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 20:42
  like some freedom and space that you thought you have made for
• 20:45
  yourself start
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_02: shrinking a little bit.
• 20:50
  And it's like,
• 20:51
  let me remember to make this breath with an open chest,
• 20:57
  huh?
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah,
• 21:02
  I was in the metro a couple of days ago and there was a guy
• 21:05
  there who was doing
• 21:09
  SPEAKER_02: some working in the metro and there was a woman and he was saying,
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_02: well,
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_02: these women,
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_02: you understand nothing in politics.
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_02: So just like...
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_02: Please, shut up.
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_02: And they were having a good exchange.
• 21:27
  So it was not as she was indignant at him pointing out that
• 21:32
  women understand
• 21:33
  SPEAKER_02: nothing in politics.
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_02: They were having a productive exchange, I would say.
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, well, this thing about how the...
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_02: relationships between the gender roles in the society in Russian,
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_02: how it's viewed from the Western points of view.
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_02: It's a complicated topic.
• 22:09
  yeah and yet interestingly also i have to say so i was visiting
• 22:15
  a um very old
• 22:17
  friend like one of the the oldest friend that i have since
• 22:22
  kindergarten and um
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_02: she's very good at um
• 22:28
  taking care of the household and keeping and cooking and
• 22:32
  cleaning and she actually
• 22:33
  enjoys that a lot and so she invited me over and there was
• 22:38
  another family there
• 22:38
  were like six of us and she was like so proud of her home the
• 22:46
  food that she cooked
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_02: the way that everything was so clean and sparkling really proud and
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_02: I hate those things.
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_02: But really,
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_02: for her,
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_02: it's really,
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_02: I guess,
• 23:07
  part of her life or the role or her identity that she has
• 23:12
  embraced and integrated,
• 23:13
  SPEAKER_02: I guess.
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_00: So many things are coming up.
• 23:25
  I think I still go through a little bit of a checklist every
• 23:28
  time some older
• 23:33
  cultural social norm thing comes up and then I have to like do
• 23:38
  a little checklist.
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_00: wait, is that me?
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_00: Is that what I actually think?
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_00: Is this how I choose to live?
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_00: It's not automatic yet because in the process of walking,
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_00: transforming,
• 23:53
  SPEAKER_00: releasing whatever I was initially wired for,
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_00: it's still a conscious thing that has to happen.
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_00: The other day,
• 24:05
  SPEAKER_00: I was thinking, oh, it would be nice now that I've cleaned up the house.
• 24:09
  It would be nice to have a party and feed people and,
• 24:14
  you know,
• 24:14
  enjoy the space and share it.
• 24:16
  SPEAKER_00: And then I was like, is that really what you think, Polina?
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_00: You really want to work to get food and feed and clean?
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_00: And I was like, no.
• 24:31
  SPEAKER_00: No, I don't want to do that.
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_00: So where is that thought coming from?
• 24:35
  SPEAKER_00: It's coming from like whatever shows I've been watching recently, right?
• 24:39
  Or the concept of what is a well-lived life that also has
• 24:45
  nothing to do with
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_00: actually me,
• 24:48
  SPEAKER_00: but that there's still this check that has to happen to come back to,
• 24:53
  SPEAKER_00: well,
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_00: who am I right now outside of all that stuff?
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_02: The story that came to my mind,
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_02: I'm still with the stories,
• 25:09
  SPEAKER_02: regarding this checking in,
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_02: like,
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_02: is it really my fault?
• 25:13
  SPEAKER_02: Is it my need?
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_02: Or is it something that is like my social conditioning?
• 25:18
  SPEAKER_02: And it also has to do with the social role as a woman.
• 25:26
  I'm just like a little disclosure for our listeners and maybe
• 25:32
  for you too.
• 25:33
  SPEAKER_02: So, so I'm 50, I don't have children and it was not my choice.
• 25:40
  SPEAKER_02: It was my choice in certain sense,
• 25:43
  SPEAKER_02: but it was not like delivery decision that I don't want to have children.
• 25:47
  SPEAKER_02: It just so happened.
• 25:49
  But for many,
• 25:51
  many years,
• 25:52
  I really thought that I would like to have children.
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_02: Someday.
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_02: And this someday always was, you know, like someday in the future.
• 26:05
  SPEAKER_02: So I remember when I was 18,
• 26:06
  it was like the first year after finishing the school and my
• 26:14
  first year in college
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_02: or something like this.
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_02: So I came to my hometown.
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_02: for the weekend and came across a girl with whom just a classmate.
• 26:27
  We were not close friends,
• 26:29
  but sometimes we played together during school years.
• 26:34
  So I came across her on the street and we had a walk and she
• 26:40
  started telling me about her life.
• 26:43
  SPEAKER_02: And then she started complaining that she really,
• 26:47
  SPEAKER_02: really,
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_02: really wants to have children,
• 26:49
  SPEAKER_02: but doesn't have a possible potential father.
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_02: And I was listening to her and I'm thinking, like, really, we're only 18.
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_02: Like, she wants to have children.
• 27:01
  SPEAKER_02: How weird is this?
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_02: Then like several years later, we were already like around 30.
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_02: Another friend of mine,
• 27:12
  and I was already living in Barcelona and another friend of
• 27:15
  mine came to visit me
• 27:18
  SPEAKER_02: and she was living in Paris at that time.
• 27:23
  And she had some very complicated stories with several men she
• 27:29
  couldn't sort out
• 27:31
  SPEAKER_02: with whom she wanted to make a life.
• 27:36
  SPEAKER_02: And she was telling me her story and complaining that,
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_02: with these guys,
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_02: neither of them can make the decision what they want.
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_02: And I want to have children.
• 27:48
  SPEAKER_02: And I don't know with whom I could have children.
• 27:52
  SPEAKER_02: And I was listening to her and was thinking, how weird to see.
• 27:59
  SPEAKER_02: You're like, she wants to have children already?
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_02: Like, we're only 30.
• 28:05
  SPEAKER_02: And then we were like around 40.
• 28:12
  SPEAKER_02: And another friend of mine, she just got married several years ago and...
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_02: When we met,
• 28:21
  SPEAKER_02: she was telling me about how with her husband,
• 28:25
  they were trying to get pregnant and how concerned she was that
• 28:30
  they were not
• 28:31
  SPEAKER_02: successful so far about that.
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_02: And again, I had this thought, like, how weird is she?
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_02: You're like, why is she so preoccupied with this?
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_02: And at that moment, I had an insight.
• 28:47
  SPEAKER_02: I said, like, wait, wait, wait a minute.
• 28:50
  SPEAKER_02: We are 40.
• 28:53
  SPEAKER_02: She is married with someone she is in love with.
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_02: She's happy with him.
• 28:59
  SPEAKER_02: It's perfectly normal,
• 29:02
  SPEAKER_02: I guess,
• 29:02
  SPEAKER_02: that she wants to have children and that she is concerned about not being
• 29:09
  SPEAKER_02: successful so far in this endeavor.
• 29:12
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe the weird one is new here.
• 29:17
  SPEAKER_02: And at that moment I started questioning myself,
• 29:21
  SPEAKER_02: okay,
• 29:21
  SPEAKER_02: like this idea that I want to have children someday in the future,
• 29:28
  is it really my wish to have children or it was the social
• 29:35
  conditioning that of
• 29:37
  SPEAKER_02: course,
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_02: of course I want to have children someday,
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_02: but someday in the future that never comes.
• 29:50
  I have a similar story but different that comes to mind since
• 29:54
  you've opened up this
• 29:55
  SPEAKER_00: topic that we never talk about.
• 30:00
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
• 30:00
  SPEAKER_00: I also,
• 30:01
  SPEAKER_00: I mean,
• 30:01
  SPEAKER_00: that's when it comes to conditioning and,
• 30:05
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 30:05
  SPEAKER_00: the role of the woman and also role of family and
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_00: what you're supposed to do.
• 30:12
  This question of children was always a big question because I
• 30:17
  remember when I was
• 30:18
  SPEAKER_00: really young,
• 30:19
  SPEAKER_00: like five or so,
• 30:20
  I was very intent on holding the intention that I am not going
• 30:27
  to repeat the
• 30:28
  SPEAKER_00: experience I'm having.
• 30:30
  SPEAKER_00: Do not have children if this is what life is about.
• 30:36
  SPEAKER_00: And I really held on to that for a really, really long time.
• 30:39
  But as I went through the developmental stages and the hormones
• 30:44
  would kick in,
• 30:46
  SPEAKER_00: the biology aspect would also be very strong.
• 30:50
  SPEAKER_00: And sometimes it was hard to tell the difference between...
• 30:55
  SPEAKER_00: You know,
• 30:55
  I guess spirit or the experience I had when I was younger
• 31:00
  versus the biology versus
• 31:02
  SPEAKER_00: the social conditioning versus the wants and needs of my family.
• 31:06
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 31:07
  And like,
• 31:07
  what does it mean that you're successful in your late 20s and
• 31:11
  early 30s?
• 31:12
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 31:12
  SPEAKER_00: Everything was about.
• 31:15
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 31:16
  SPEAKER_00: with the people that I was surrounded by,
• 31:18
  SPEAKER_00: it all seemed like the checkboxes were you get married,
• 31:21
  SPEAKER_00: you have a kid,
• 31:22
  SPEAKER_00: you get a house,
• 31:22
  SPEAKER_00: you have a nice car,
• 31:23
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 31:24
  SPEAKER_00: like all of those things.
• 31:25
  SPEAKER_00: And so if you're not doing those things, what does that mean about you?
• 31:30
  SPEAKER_00: And yet,
• 31:33
  SPEAKER_00: even through the times when the biology would almost take over,
• 31:37
  SPEAKER_00: like I remember I had two times in my life during,
• 31:41
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 31:43
  SPEAKER_00: the reproductive years where the,
• 31:47
  SPEAKER_00: the,
• 31:47
  the hormonal biology was so strong that it almost took over any
• 31:53
  rational reasoning.
• 31:55
  SPEAKER_00: And the body was like, I remember it.
• 31:58
  It was like on,
• 31:59
  on fire,
• 32:00
  you know,
• 32:00
  about,
• 32:00
  Oh,
• 32:02
  I want to,
• 32:03
  I want to have a child,
• 32:04
  you know?
• 32:05
  SPEAKER_00: And thank goodness that,
• 32:08
  I guess the way things were organized was even though I had
• 32:12
  long-term relationships
• 32:13
  SPEAKER_00: always and they could have ended up that way,
• 32:15
  it was just not in the cards with the people that I was
• 32:19
  choosing and like who I
• 32:21
  SPEAKER_00: was.
• 32:21
  SPEAKER_00: It just wasn't in the cards.
• 32:22
  So I almost got saved every time just because it just was not
• 32:27
  going to happen for
• 32:29
  SPEAKER_00: whatever reasons,
• 32:29
  SPEAKER_00: but also because there was still that other aspect of me,
• 32:32
  SPEAKER_00: which was like,
• 32:33
  SPEAKER_00: no,
• 32:33
  SPEAKER_00: unless this is really a healthy relationship,
• 32:36
  SPEAKER_00: unless...
• 32:38
  We are really in a healthy and good space where we could really
• 32:42
  do it differently
• 32:43
  SPEAKER_00: than the way I've experienced,
• 32:45
  SPEAKER_00: not just with my parents,
• 32:46
  SPEAKER_00: but also like all of the other older generations that I've watched,
• 32:50
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 32:50
  SPEAKER_00: the relationships and how things progressed.
• 32:53
  SPEAKER_00: Even the ones that seem on the surface to be good, you know, to be okay.
• 32:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 33:00
  SPEAKER_00: So that whole conditioning of what does it mean to be successful?
• 33:07
  SPEAKER_00: I know I keep saying that word,
• 33:09
  SPEAKER_00: but I think that's,
• 33:12
  SPEAKER_00: in my family at least,
• 33:13
  SPEAKER_00: I mean,
• 33:14
  SPEAKER_00: that was where everything was going.
• 33:16
  SPEAKER_00: What is success?
• 33:17
  SPEAKER_00: What does it mean that you've made it?
• 33:19
  But keeping track of my original intent since I was little,
• 33:26
  but also keeping track of
• 33:30
  honestly how tired I was that I didn't even have the energy for
• 33:33
  like what's really
• 33:34
  required for you know to be a good parent um and being real
• 33:39
  about it with myself
• 33:42
  and thank god however the things were set up just that they
• 33:45
  weren't going to push
• 33:46
  me in that direction although I could have pushed it myself and
• 33:48
  thankfully I didn't
• 33:50
  SPEAKER_00: uh where am I going with this
• 33:54
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it's been a process.
• 33:55
  SPEAKER_00: That's where I'm going with this.
• 33:56
  SPEAKER_00: It's been a process of trying to sift through biology,
• 33:59
  SPEAKER_00: which was very real,
• 34:00
  SPEAKER_00: especially like twice in my life.
• 34:03
  SPEAKER_00: And I felt it.
• 34:04
  I was like,
• 34:05
  oh,
• 34:05
  my God,
• 34:05
  if I don't go with this wave right now,
• 34:07
  that's it.
• 34:07
  SPEAKER_00: This is the last wave.
• 34:08
  SPEAKER_00: Like,
• 34:08
  SPEAKER_00: it's not happening because of the wisdom and the knowledge and the,
• 34:12
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 34:13
  SPEAKER_00: the consciousness and the awareness.
• 34:15
  SPEAKER_00: And it was just going to take over.
• 34:18
  SPEAKER_00: And the physical body, the bio, was really scared.
• 34:21
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, my God.
• 34:22
  SPEAKER_00: Like, Polina, if you go over this hump now, that's it.
• 34:26
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it was a lot riding on it.
• 34:28
  SPEAKER_00: So many huge questions about, like, who am I going to be?
• 34:33
  SPEAKER_00: What's going to happen when I'm older?
• 34:35
  Like,
• 34:35
  I'm not going to have any family to look to,
• 34:37
  you know,
• 34:37
  to spend time with.
• 34:39
  There's so many aspects to this to unwind and unravel that I
• 34:44
  still think about to this day.
• 34:46
  SPEAKER_00: And yet...
• 34:48
  SPEAKER_00: I just want to bring it back to flow.
• 34:50
  SPEAKER_00: I'm so grateful that there was still the original intent that I,
• 34:55
  SPEAKER_00: no matter how many things came up,
• 34:57
  SPEAKER_00: I was still in flow with,
• 35:00
  SPEAKER_00: even though it was rocky and all over the place,
• 35:02
  SPEAKER_00: but I still flow with it.
• 35:04
  SPEAKER_00: And today I'm grateful that the things turned out the way they did,
• 35:10
  even though there are still those other questions that I'm sure
• 35:14
  I will be dealing
• 35:15
  SPEAKER_00: with until the end of time.
• 35:18
  SPEAKER_00: I hope that made sense, what I was trying to bring.
• 35:21
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, it made a lot of sense.
• 35:23
  SPEAKER_02: And one of the things that you were saying is,
• 35:27
  SPEAKER_02: I guess,
• 35:28
  SPEAKER_02: that it was the social conditioning,
• 35:32
  SPEAKER_02: actually,
• 35:32
  SPEAKER_02: that prevented you from having children,
• 35:34
  SPEAKER_02: right?
• 35:34
  SPEAKER_02: So there was the biology that is the thing beyond social conditioning.
• 35:39
  SPEAKER_02: But then you were fighting it because of the things that...
• 35:46
  you know,
• 35:46
  whatever the family,
• 35:49
  the society,
• 35:51
  your life has taught to you,
• 35:53
  right?
• 35:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's actually I was fighting it on both sides.
• 35:58
  SPEAKER_00: Now that you mentioned it,
• 36:00
  SPEAKER_00: I was fighting on both sides,
• 36:02
  SPEAKER_00: fighting the fact that,
• 36:04
  SPEAKER_00: oh,
• 36:04
  SPEAKER_00: you're supposed to,
• 36:05
  SPEAKER_00: but also,
• 36:06
  SPEAKER_00: well,
• 36:06
  SPEAKER_00: I won't because of how it's set up and I don't like it.
• 36:10
  SPEAKER_00: So both sides of it.
• 36:11
  SPEAKER_00: Does that make sense?
• 36:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 36:16
  SPEAKER_00: Say it again.
• 36:18
  SPEAKER_00: One side I do understand, you know.
• 36:21
  SPEAKER_00: Well,
• 36:22
  I was so I was fighting the social conditioning in terms of I
• 36:28
  didn't quite fit it
• 36:30
  SPEAKER_00: because like that's not really I think who I was or came in as.
• 36:35
  SPEAKER_00: But at the same time,
• 36:36
  I was fighting it because I could have potentially made other
• 36:40
  choices and done it.
• 36:41
  But because of what I saw in the way that everything was set up
• 36:46
  and how it played
• 36:47
  SPEAKER_00: out and I didn't like it,
• 36:49
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't want to participate.
• 36:51
  I didn't want to add to this crazy soup we've already made as a
• 36:56
  society and put
• 36:58
  SPEAKER_00: someone else into the soup without them necessarily telling me,
• 37:02
  SPEAKER_00: oh,
• 37:02
  SPEAKER_00: yeah,
• 37:03
  SPEAKER_00: yeah,
• 37:03
  SPEAKER_00: I want to participate in this.
• 37:05
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 37:07
  SPEAKER_02: Well, we won't go into how...
• 37:13
  how would it be possible for new humans to let us know if they
• 37:16
  want to participate or not?
• 37:18
  But it brings me to my next question is,
• 37:21
  what is beyond social conditioning for humans?
• 37:33
  SPEAKER_02: You know, when I did my first coaching training,
• 37:41
  the woman i trained with i went to study with her because first
• 37:48
  i attended several
• 37:50
  i don't like presentations the e-point speeches of hers and at
• 38:00
  one of the seminars
• 38:05
  SPEAKER_02: the i don't remember what was the topic
• 38:09
  well the topic was also always about coaching but we started
• 38:13
  the whole thing with
• 38:15
  the question who are you so uh she invited us to ask this
• 38:24
  question ask ourselves
• 38:26
  this question and answer it okay so like who are you beyond all
• 38:33
  the social roles
• 38:35
  SPEAKER_02: that
• 38:36
  SPEAKER_02: first come to your mind.
• 38:37
  SPEAKER_02: Like,
• 38:37
  SPEAKER_02: if you're not a mother,
• 38:40
  SPEAKER_02: this kind of professional,
• 38:43
  SPEAKER_02: the girlfriend,
• 38:45
  SPEAKER_02: wife,
• 38:46
  SPEAKER_02: whatever,
• 38:46
  SPEAKER_02: daughter,
• 38:48
  SPEAKER_02: all these social masks that we are describing ourselves with,
• 38:53
  SPEAKER_02: if you're not your name,
• 38:55
  SPEAKER_02: your personality,
• 38:57
  SPEAKER_02: like,
• 38:57
  SPEAKER_02: if you were different,
• 38:58
  SPEAKER_02: would it be you?
• 39:00
  SPEAKER_02: Or, like, you would not exist.
• 39:02
  SPEAKER_02: So...
• 39:05
  SPEAKER_02: It did have quite a profound effect on me.
• 39:09
  And I guess it's the typical exercise in many spiritual
• 39:15
  teachings to get to this
• 39:18
  SPEAKER_02: essence beyond all of this.
• 39:22
  And I must say that from time to time,
• 39:26
  I do catch the glimpses of this experience.
• 39:33
  SPEAKER_02: something that dwells very, very deep inside.
• 39:44
  SPEAKER_02: So that, like my coaching teacher, she used to call it essence.
• 39:51
  SPEAKER_02: Like we may call it also the soul or like our true self.
• 39:58
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know.
• 39:59
  SPEAKER_02: I
• 40:04
  SPEAKER_02: I can say that every time when I look into my eyes,
• 40:15
  SPEAKER_02: look myself into the eyes in the mirror,
• 40:20
  SPEAKER_02: when I really,
• 40:21
  SPEAKER_02: really allow myself,
• 40:26
  SPEAKER_02: let myself to see my own gaze,
• 40:33
  It always takes me to something very,
• 40:38
  very foreign,
• 40:39
  like the alien,
• 40:43
  not out of this world.
• 40:46
  SPEAKER_02: Something that might be really scary.
• 40:50
  SPEAKER_02: So do we have something
• 41:02
  SPEAKER_02: that goes much deeper, our social conditioning?
• 41:07
  SPEAKER_02: I think yes.
• 41:10
  Can we say that this is the true us and all the rest is just
• 41:16
  the masks,
• 41:17
  the layers?
• 41:19
  SPEAKER_02: That I'm not sure about.
• 41:21
  SPEAKER_02: I guess there are layers, there are levels of
• 41:30
  SPEAKER_02: like what compose us.
• 41:37
  SPEAKER_02: But I think,
• 41:42
  SPEAKER_02: coming back to some of the,
• 41:44
  SPEAKER_02: like what Paulina said,
• 41:47
  SPEAKER_02: the biology,
• 41:49
  SPEAKER_02: and coming back to the question of the zoo,
• 41:52
  SPEAKER_02: we are animals.
• 41:54
  SPEAKER_02: And the biology and how it manifests in our bodies, it does...
• 42:00
  SPEAKER_02: play an important role in shaping our lives and our behavior, etc.
• 42:06
  SPEAKER_02: And we're social animals.
• 42:13
  Can we really say that without all this social conditioning,
• 42:18
  we would be truer to ourselves?
• 42:25
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not sure.
• 42:36
  okay so it's um you're saying it's about acknowledging our
• 42:44
  animal nature but also
• 42:45
  acknowledging our spiritual nature and the essence that we can
• 42:51
  call soul the
• 42:54
  SPEAKER_02: spiritual nature the animal nature but the social nature too
• 43:03
  SPEAKER_02: They're like, these are just me, the different components of the soup.
• 43:09
  SPEAKER_02: And we are this soup.
• 43:19
  I often wondered if I wasn't someone that questioned everything
• 43:24
  to the degree that
• 43:25
  SPEAKER_00: I've always questioned things,
• 43:27
  SPEAKER_00: if things would have been easier to just,
• 43:30
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 43:30
  SPEAKER_00: go along with the programming and just do life,
• 43:36
  SPEAKER_00: you know.
• 43:36
  But I,
• 43:38
  unfortunately,
• 43:39
  or fortunately,
• 43:39
  I guess fortunately,
• 43:41
  I really did have this
• 43:45
  observational thing always happening around all aspects of the
• 43:49
  experience.
• 43:50
  I think I shared this maybe with Yulia,
• 43:55
  maybe with both of you in the past.
• 43:56
  SPEAKER_00: I think I even had to
• 43:59
  SPEAKER_00: figure out like what does it mean to be female in this life?
• 44:03
  SPEAKER_00: Because when I would consider myself as a being,
• 44:10
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't have a sense of like,
• 44:12
  SPEAKER_00: oh,
• 44:12
  SPEAKER_00: I'm masculine or feminine.
• 44:14
  SPEAKER_00: I just had a sense of like I'm neither or both or neither.
• 44:17
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
• 44:19
  SPEAKER_00: And I remember
• 44:22
  SPEAKER_00: When I was growing up, I was a tomboy and I was into sports.
• 44:26
  SPEAKER_00: And again,
• 44:27
  that's still a social kind of social aspect to it and the
• 44:30
  conditioning because I,
• 44:33
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 44:33
  SPEAKER_00: that was labeled as a tomboy.
• 44:36
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 44:36
  SPEAKER_00: So like you're not a girl the way you're supposed to be.
• 44:39
  SPEAKER_00: You're like this.
• 44:42
  guyish girl you know uh you like to play soccer you're wearing
• 44:46
  baggy clothes which
• 44:47
  was actually like part of our culture growing up in america in
• 44:51
  the in the 90s like
• 44:52
  everyone was wearing baggy clothes or end of 80s something like
• 44:56
  that um but at some
• 44:59
  point i remember like i it was almost a conscious choice to say
• 45:05
  to myself all right
• 45:06
  SPEAKER_00: listen i'm in this body it's female
• 45:09
  let's just,
• 45:10
  let's just lean into this experience and see what is the,
• 45:13
  what does that mean?
• 45:14
  SPEAKER_00: And then I had,
• 45:17
  SPEAKER_00: I call it the era of my female flowering or whatever,
• 45:22
  SPEAKER_00: like the era of me really leaning into the female at that point,
• 45:26
  SPEAKER_00: what I thought was female.
• 45:28
  SPEAKER_00: Um,
• 45:39
  SPEAKER_02: So are you saying,
• 45:40
  SPEAKER_02: Pauline,
• 45:46
  SPEAKER_02: that if not for this,
• 45:50
  SPEAKER_02: let's say,
• 45:52
  SPEAKER_02: pressure or expectation to be more female,
• 45:54
  SPEAKER_02: you could have continued to be more on the Tom girl,
• 46:00
  SPEAKER_02: Tom boy side?
• 46:03
  SPEAKER_02: Because if you were more like a boy, you would be Tom girl?
• 46:07
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, no.
• 46:09
  SPEAKER_00: I would be a dumb boy.
• 46:10
  SPEAKER_00: That's what girls were called that were like that.
• 46:12
  SPEAKER_00: OK, sorry.
• 46:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 46:15
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 46:17
  SPEAKER_00: I have no idea, to be honest, because I think it was all very confusing.
• 46:21
  SPEAKER_00: My dad really wanted a boy and he had a girl.
• 46:24
  SPEAKER_00: It was already really hard to connect with him.
• 46:27
  SPEAKER_00: And in some ways,
• 46:29
  SPEAKER_00: I when I was into like sports or whatever,
• 46:33
  SPEAKER_00: it seemed like he was there was some a little bit more to connect around.
• 46:39
  SPEAKER_00: And I got it in my head, oh, he really wants a boy.
• 46:42
  SPEAKER_00: So maybe I also leaned into that from that perspective.
• 46:45
  SPEAKER_00: I don't even know at this point.
• 46:47
  But I do know that I didn't necessarily have a sense of like,
• 46:52
  am I this or that?
• 46:53
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I just didn't grow up feeling that way.
• 46:55
  SPEAKER_00: I was...
• 47:00
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
• 47:01
  SPEAKER_00: I was something else entirely.
• 47:03
  SPEAKER_00: But yes, through the social conditioning and the norms of it all.
• 47:08
  SPEAKER_00: And also, look, my mom really wanted a girly girl.
• 47:11
  SPEAKER_00: So there was always this tug of war.
• 47:13
  SPEAKER_00: But like my dad wanted a boy, but my mom wanted a really girly girl.
• 47:16
  SPEAKER_00: And she would put like these tights on me and these dresses.
• 47:20
  SPEAKER_00: And it was like the opposite of who I was.
• 47:23
  SPEAKER_00: I wanted to climb trees and I wanted to jump in the luge.
• 47:27
  SPEAKER_00: What are they called in English?
• 47:29
  SPEAKER_00: You know, the puddles.
• 47:31
  like I just not it wasn't my spirit it was about explore and
• 47:39
  have fun and you know
• 47:41
  create mischief and like push the boundaries that's who I was I
• 47:46
  don't know what
• 47:47
  clothes that that aspect of me would wear or like how they
• 47:52
  would I even I guess
• 47:54
  identify that wasn't even part of our consciousness back then
• 47:56
  right but I don't
• 47:58
  SPEAKER_00: know but
• 48:04
  I guess at some point I was just like,
• 48:05
  well,
• 48:06
  OK,
• 48:06
  this is what we have to do work with.
• 48:08
  SPEAKER_00: Let's let's see where we could take it and like let's explore it further.
• 48:14
  SPEAKER_00: Which, again, still came with the social norms of it all.
• 48:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 48:19
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 48:19
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, how do you untangle it?
• 48:22
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 48:22
  SPEAKER_02: Because we're.
• 48:24
  We're interconnectedness of people,
• 48:29
  circumstances,
• 48:31
  places and things like that.
• 48:33
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 48:35
  SPEAKER_02: Well, what comes to mind for me is...
• 48:40
  year ago when i had this experience of deeply connect
• 48:45
  connecting to nature um and
• 48:47
  then i went into the wilderness education uh educator program
• 48:55
  and then at one point
• 48:56
  SPEAKER_02: i was like as something really deep was coming up for me
• 49:02
  SPEAKER_02: And then one time it's just like popped up that as a baby,
• 49:09
  SPEAKER_02: my mom used to describe me as always watching trees.
• 49:14
  SPEAKER_02: And she said,
• 49:15
  SPEAKER_02: like,
• 49:15
  SPEAKER_02: as long as there was some wind,
• 49:19
  she could leave the stroller by the window outside and I'll
• 49:25
  just like be there
• 49:26
  SPEAKER_02: hypnotized by the trees.
• 49:28
  SPEAKER_02: It was always indefinitely, I guess, until I got hungry or something.
• 49:33
  I was like,
• 49:34
  wow,
• 49:35
  how interesting and how,
• 49:37
  you know,
• 49:37
  I guess that connection was there somehow.
• 49:42
  SPEAKER_02: And it just got buried in a lot of,
• 49:44
  SPEAKER_02: again,
• 49:45
  SPEAKER_02: different circumstances and people and things like that.
• 49:49
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 49:51
  SPEAKER_02: And now I kind of like,
• 49:53
  SPEAKER_02: I keep it close to me because I think somehow it's very important to this
• 49:57
  SPEAKER_02: community.
• 49:59
  I don't know what do we call this essence or a true part of us
• 50:03
  that wants to or is
• 50:04
  SPEAKER_02: here maybe to express something.
• 50:07
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 50:08
  SPEAKER_02: And then I think for me,
• 50:09
  the another part that is super important that's beyond social
• 50:15
  conditioning is the
• 50:17
  SPEAKER_02: body.
• 50:17
  SPEAKER_02: And,
• 50:20
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 50:20
  SPEAKER_02: because everything that we experience,
• 50:23
  SPEAKER_02: I think we experience because we have a body.
• 50:26
  SPEAKER_02: And according to some of the people that we know, like Dan Siegel,
• 50:34
  right like you know the body and our mind holds thousands of
• 50:41
  years of history i
• 50:42
  would say millions of years of history of who we are and um
• 50:46
  it's a little bit like
• 50:48
  SPEAKER_02: you know like the birds
• 50:50
  we are not surprised somehow that there are experiments when
• 50:55
  the birds that
• 50:57
  actually raised without light so they don't have a way to
• 51:00
  orient themselves and to
• 51:02
  see like what their role models are doing like other birds who
• 51:07
  lead the flocks and
• 51:09
  SPEAKER_02: then when they're um let out at one point
• 51:13
  something happens that they automatically they choose the right
• 51:17
  direction that need
• 51:18
  SPEAKER_02: to go and they orient themselves and they just
• 51:23
  And I think this is kind of like a foundational mechanism that
• 51:28
  humans also share.
• 51:30
  SPEAKER_02: And of course,
• 51:33
  what we share is a lot of things from our history where we used
• 51:38
  to be much closer
• 51:39
  SPEAKER_02: to like the wild animal life than we are today.
• 51:46
  SPEAKER_02: And so I guess for me, somehow,
• 51:50
  experiencing that ancient part of me that I know wants to speak
• 51:59
  to me is one part
• 52:02
  SPEAKER_02: that's beyond social conditioning.
• 52:14
  SPEAKER_02: But the question is,
• 52:19
  Can you really experience it without all the interface that
• 52:27
  interacting and being
• 52:29
  SPEAKER_02: in the society and being a social animal provides to you?
• 52:37
  Well,
• 52:38
  wouldn't you say that all that interface actually prevents us
• 52:43
  from accessing this part?
• 52:46
  SPEAKER_02: Because to just have it?
• 52:50
  SPEAKER_02: It might,
• 52:51
  but there are definitely hurdles in our social conditions that
• 53:01
  prevent us from
• 53:02
  SPEAKER_02: accessing this ancient pot.
• 53:05
  But can we really process and be aware of it without being
• 53:17
  socially conditioned?
• 53:21
  Are you talking now about the kind of like the capabilities of
• 53:26
  the mind and senses?
• 53:29
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 53:32
  SPEAKER_02: Well, to me, it's, you know, how do you experience things, right?
• 53:37
  SPEAKER_02: To me, experiencing things comes from senses.
• 53:40
  SPEAKER_02: Well, scientifically speaking also, and as we have already mentioned,
• 53:46
  SPEAKER_02: probably a couple of times on this podcast,
• 53:48
  SPEAKER_02: we have up to 53 senses and not necessarily as humans,
• 53:53
  SPEAKER_02: but you know,
• 53:54
  SPEAKER_02: including different animals,
• 53:56
  SPEAKER_02: like birds have senses that we don't,
• 53:58
  SPEAKER_02: but we definitely have more than the five senses that we're used to.
• 54:04
  SPEAKER_02: And of course,
• 54:10
  SPEAKER_02: The sense of maybe not,
• 54:12
  SPEAKER_02: of course,
• 54:13
  but what is the main focus or has been the king or the crown of
• 54:20
  humans lately?
• 54:23
  SPEAKER_02: It's been thinking and thinking takes up space.
• 54:27
  SPEAKER_02: that was otherwise used by senses.
• 54:31
  SPEAKER_02: And that's why things that used to be sensed by our ancestors,
• 54:37
  SPEAKER_02: they say,
• 54:38
  SPEAKER_02: well,
• 54:40
  SPEAKER_02: they were probably imagining things like
• 54:43
  SPEAKER_02: you know, spirits or non corporal beings and stuff like that.
• 54:50
  SPEAKER_02: And this is not I don't want to go there.
• 54:53
  But what if actually they were so sensitive that they were
• 54:56
  sensitive to things that
• 54:58
  SPEAKER_02: also were not seen.
• 55:00
  SPEAKER_02: And definitely they were sensitive to like orienting themselves.
• 55:04
  SPEAKER_02: So they were, you know, hearing better and things like that.
• 55:09
  SPEAKER_02: So
• 55:10
  can assume that they were also had more access to the ancient
• 55:16
  being through senses
• 55:24
  SPEAKER_02: okay i agree with that but still my question is can you
• 55:36
  SPEAKER_02: perceive yourself,
• 55:37
  SPEAKER_02: continue perceiving yourself as a human without the interface of social
• 55:45
  SPEAKER_02: conditioning.
• 55:49
  You mean if you were born into a society that wasn't set up as
• 55:53
  a society?
• 55:54
  SPEAKER_00: Or do you mean...
• 55:55
  SPEAKER_00: No,
• 55:55
  SPEAKER_00: I mean,
• 55:57
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 55:58
  SPEAKER_02: it doesn't matter,
• 55:59
  SPEAKER_02: like,
• 56:00
  SPEAKER_02: what kind of society a human being lives in.
• 56:03
  SPEAKER_02: Like, there could be different, like, different kinds of society.
• 56:09
  SPEAKER_02: But it's still a society.
• 56:11
  SPEAKER_02: Like, we are still... We are worried...
• 56:19
  We perceive ourselves as a human because we are interacting
• 56:22
  with other humans.
• 56:26
  SPEAKER_02: Well, that part I do not debate.
• 56:27
  SPEAKER_02: And as you said,
• 56:30
  SPEAKER_02: like when actually the eyes also super interesting,
• 56:35
  SPEAKER_02: I find for connecting with other humans beyond social conditioning,
• 56:39
  SPEAKER_02: because it's like you go to the core of each other.
• 56:43
  SPEAKER_02: So no, I still would find myself belonging to the human race.
• 56:50
  SPEAKER_02: But I'm hoping that maybe I could see deeper into
• 56:56
  SPEAKER_02: my nature.
• 56:59
  SPEAKER_02: But still,
• 57:00
  SPEAKER_02: let's imagine,
• 57:01
  SPEAKER_02: okay,
• 57:01
  SPEAKER_02: so let's imagine an ideal from our point of view,
• 57:05
  the society that incites each individual to like deep
• 57:10
  connection to oneself and
• 57:13
  SPEAKER_02: just being mindfulness and just presence,
• 57:17
  SPEAKER_02: etc.
• 57:19
  SPEAKER_02: It still would be a social conditioning.
• 57:23
  SPEAKER_02: Because this is how the society functions,
• 57:26
  SPEAKER_02: that it encourages the development of these qualities in an individual.
• 57:32
  SPEAKER_02: And this is how the members of this society interact with each other.
• 57:38
  SPEAKER_00: And also in the animal world, it's the same.
• 57:41
  SPEAKER_00: It's also everyone is socialized into how to survive,
• 57:47
  SPEAKER_00: how to eat,
• 57:47
  SPEAKER_00: how to interact with one another,
• 57:51
  SPEAKER_00: right?
• 57:52
  SPEAKER_00: So that part of this reality is, I think, inescapable.
• 58:00
  SPEAKER_00: But the way we do it could be different.
• 58:04
  SPEAKER_00: The way we ride this wave,
• 58:05
  the way we make space for one another to explore ourselves
• 58:09
  however we want to
• 58:10
  SPEAKER_00: explore ourselves,
• 58:12
  SPEAKER_00: not to be put into roles and told what to do,
• 58:15
  SPEAKER_00: but just be supported in our exploration of this life,
• 58:24
  SPEAKER_00: that could be done differently,
• 58:25
  SPEAKER_00: right?
• 58:26
  SPEAKER_00: Rather than telling each other what to do,
• 58:28
  SPEAKER_00: we could show each other how I do it,
• 58:29
  SPEAKER_00: but you could figure out your own way to do it,
• 58:31
  SPEAKER_00: right?
• 58:36
  SPEAKER_02: That is the good utopia.
• 58:41
  SPEAKER_02: My utopia, I imagine for myself, is an ideal society.
• 58:46
  For that,
• 58:52
  it would require from each member of the society a high level
• 58:58
  of self-awareness.
• 59:02
  SPEAKER_02: And this awareness of interconnectedness and how,
• 59:08
  SPEAKER_02: yes,
• 59:08
  SPEAKER_02: I'm exploring myself and what is true to myself,
• 59:12
  but also the awareness of how it all fits into a system and how
• 59:18
  my own actions and
• 59:20
  SPEAKER_02: just any expressions of my being,
• 59:24
  SPEAKER_02: how it affects the whole system and how this affects
• 59:29
  affection of the system affects back to me right that that's
• 59:35
  the the social aspect
• 59:37
  go ahead so well some things that you said for example about
• 59:43
  mindfulness and i'm
• 59:45
  still thinking about this question uh well you know would that
• 59:49
  really be the social
• 59:50
  SPEAKER_02: conditioning way for me to get to know my wild self but um now that
• 59:59
  SPEAKER_02: I would,
• 1:00:02
  I guess I can say that the mindfulness route or the meditation
• 1:00:07
  route has not really
• 1:00:09
  SPEAKER_02: worked for me.
• 1:00:10
  I mean,
• 1:00:11
  like a little bit to some extent,
• 1:00:14
  but it was actually like really...
• 1:00:18
  connecting to nature and and going through some survival
• 1:00:23
  experiences that put me
• 1:00:26
  away from the society and from the social rules that as if
• 1:00:33
  created a clearing and
• 1:00:35
  more access to my ancient self so it was the removal of those
• 1:00:40
  things including well
• 1:00:44
  SPEAKER_02: Not probably,
• 1:00:45
  SPEAKER_02: but certainly,
• 1:00:46
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 1:00:46
  SPEAKER_02: a lot of the things I learned in the society about myself,
• 1:00:50
  SPEAKER_02: about the mind,
• 1:00:51
  SPEAKER_02: about,
• 1:00:52
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 1:00:53
  SPEAKER_02: like,
• 1:00:54
  how do I work with these experiences and not allow them to
• 1:00:59
  overwhelm me or,
• 1:01:00
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 1:01:01
  SPEAKER_02: to just leave no trace,
• 1:01:03
  SPEAKER_02: whatever I get,
• 1:01:04
  SPEAKER_02: they were certainly played the role.
• 1:01:05
  SPEAKER_02: But I think the removal was a super important part of it.
• 1:01:11
  SPEAKER_02: The removal from the society?
• 1:01:13
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 1:01:15
  SPEAKER_02: The natural setting.
• 1:01:17
  SPEAKER_02: From the zoo into the wild.
• 1:01:18
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I would say the same.
• 1:01:23
  SPEAKER_00: Sorry.
• 1:01:23
  SPEAKER_00: Go ahead, Yur.
• 1:01:25
  Removal from the zoo is something that also allowed me to fully
• 1:01:31
  start for the first
• 1:01:31
  SPEAKER_00: time coming into myself when I removed myself from the work zoo,
• 1:01:37
  SPEAKER_00: the family zoo,
• 1:01:39
  SPEAKER_00: the...
• 1:01:41
  SPEAKER_00: New York Zoo, you know, just like all the zoos.
• 1:01:44
  And then I just was left to myself to figure out who am I
• 1:01:49
  outside of all those
• 1:01:50
  SPEAKER_00: things was the first time I actually started to truly,
• 1:01:53
  SPEAKER_00: I wouldn't say coming back to myself,
• 1:01:55
  SPEAKER_00: but more like had the chance to integrate who I actually am,
• 1:01:59
  SPEAKER_00: who I always was.
• 1:02:01
  SPEAKER_00: But to add to what you're saying,
• 1:02:05
  SPEAKER_00: there was still,
• 1:02:06
  SPEAKER_00: for me,
• 1:02:06
  SPEAKER_00: that aspect of who I was came in when I was born.
• 1:02:12
  SPEAKER_00: Like, it was always there.
• 1:02:14
  SPEAKER_00: It wasn't,
• 1:02:17
  SPEAKER_00: regardless of the social conditioning and whatever the experiences were,
• 1:02:20
  SPEAKER_00: there was still that aspect of me that came in that is...
• 1:02:27
  SPEAKER_00: was apparently very different than all the social conditioning.
• 1:02:30
  SPEAKER_00: And it was always there and it always had its own voice.
• 1:02:33
  Even though I tried to drown it out and tried to do other
• 1:02:36
  things,
• 1:02:37
  it was still there.
• 1:02:44
  Even though I tried to control the process,
• 1:02:48
  it still somehow had a say in how things went.
• 1:02:56
  SPEAKER_00: Meaning,
• 1:02:57
  it wasn't just me stepping away from everything that allowed me
• 1:03:01
  to start coming
• 1:03:02
  SPEAKER_00: back to me.
• 1:03:03
  SPEAKER_00: It was more like...
• 1:03:06
  SPEAKER_00: I started accepting who I actually might be right and am integrating,
• 1:03:10
  but it was there the whole time and it still had a voice and it
• 1:03:13
  still affected how
• 1:03:14
  SPEAKER_00: things went.
• 1:03:16
  So what did it take to start hearing the voice or acknowledging
• 1:03:19
  the voice?
• 1:03:22
  SPEAKER_00: No, I mean, I was hearing it the whole time.
• 1:03:24
  SPEAKER_00: I just wasn't sure whether I should listen.
• 1:03:26
  SPEAKER_00: But what it really took was the removal of all the zoos,
• 1:03:30
  SPEAKER_00: all of the aspects of the zoos,
• 1:03:32
  meaning to really just like start having my own back and really
• 1:03:36
  allowing myself to,
• 1:03:37
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 1:03:37
  SPEAKER_00: to integrate into who I most likely was always meant to be.
• 1:03:47
  SPEAKER_00: Still within...
• 1:03:49
  SPEAKER_00: the social structure, I mean, at the end of the day, right?
• 1:03:51
  SPEAKER_00: It's still within the social structure.
• 1:03:54
  It's still within,
• 1:03:56
  it may be just more of a loose type of zoo for me these days.
• 1:04:00
  SPEAKER_00: Like maybe it's a safari.
• 1:04:04
  SPEAKER_00: But I'm sure
• 1:04:06
  that there are still you know boundaries somewhere you know um
• 1:04:12
  even like let's say
• 1:04:12
  financially so there's no that's there's that's always a
• 1:04:15
  boundary and always a
• 1:04:16
  thing that's like driving um us okay so then we come to the
• 1:04:26
  last question and
• 1:04:27
  that's well hold on era era wanted to say something i
• 1:04:30
  interrupted her do you mind
• 1:04:32
  SPEAKER_00: no
• 1:04:34
  SPEAKER_02: No, you didn't interrupt me.
• 1:04:36
  SPEAKER_02: It's just the way how it flowed.
• 1:04:40
  SPEAKER_02: I just want to say that definitely the removal from the society,
• 1:04:47
  SPEAKER_02: from the zoo,
• 1:04:48
  SPEAKER_02: from the conditioning is what facilitates the coming back to oneself.
• 1:04:56
  But it's still in the end,
• 1:04:58
  we're coming back to ourselves to go back to the society.
• 1:05:01
  SPEAKER_02: As Paulina said, it's still like all happens within a certain structure.
• 1:05:07
  SPEAKER_02: And I think the conditioning is inevitable.
• 1:05:13
  SPEAKER_02: If you remove yourself from the society and you go to live in the forest,
• 1:05:17
  SPEAKER_02: you're conditioned by the forest.
• 1:05:20
  SPEAKER_02: You're conditioned by the environment you are interacting with.
• 1:05:26
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that I totally agree with.
• 1:05:29
  SPEAKER_02: In the end, we're all conditioned by something, right?
• 1:05:34
  SPEAKER_02: By the forest,
• 1:05:35
  SPEAKER_02: by the society,
• 1:05:36
  SPEAKER_02: and probably,
• 1:05:37
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 1:05:38
  the fact that I spent some time in the forest did not at all
• 1:05:44
  negate the fact that I
• 1:05:46
  SPEAKER_02: had spent 45 years of my life in the society,
• 1:05:51
  SPEAKER_02: right?
• 1:05:53
  SPEAKER_02: And also,
• 1:05:55
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 1:05:55
  SPEAKER_02: like we mentioned it several times in our previous conversations,
• 1:05:59
  SPEAKER_02: I think sometimes,
• 1:06:02
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 1:06:03
  SPEAKER_02: you said that something like that,
• 1:06:06
  SPEAKER_02: we need the darkness to learn to appreciate the light.
• 1:06:10
  SPEAKER_02: So you're like,
• 1:06:13
  SPEAKER_02: Without all this conditioning and being removed from it,
• 1:06:17
  SPEAKER_02: after all,
• 1:06:18
  SPEAKER_02: how else would you able to appreciate,
• 1:06:21
  SPEAKER_02: like,
• 1:06:21
  SPEAKER_02: okay,
• 1:06:22
  SPEAKER_02: this is what feels more like me?
• 1:06:28
  SPEAKER_02: Okay,
• 1:06:28
  SPEAKER_02: well,
• 1:06:28
  SPEAKER_02: the question is,
• 1:06:29
  SPEAKER_02: because we're getting close to the end of this episode,
• 1:06:32
  SPEAKER_02: the question is,
• 1:06:33
  SPEAKER_02: how do we navigate it?
• 1:06:34
  Because,
• 1:06:35
  of course,
• 1:06:36
  we don't have an illusion that we can live without social
• 1:06:39
  conditioning.
• 1:06:40
  SPEAKER_02: We are social beings.
• 1:06:41
  SPEAKER_02: We live in society and we are humans.
• 1:06:46
  SPEAKER_02: And how do we navigate it?
• 1:06:48
  How do we find a way in the social conditioning that sometimes
• 1:06:53
  can be very rough,
• 1:06:56
  and strip away things that maybe like we were born for or
• 1:07:03
  definitely that we were
• 1:07:04
  born with um how do we do it i think there is only to me there
• 1:07:18
  is always only one
• 1:07:20
  SPEAKER_02: way it's self-awareness
• 1:07:24
  SPEAKER_02: And we may not use the word mindfulness.
• 1:07:30
  SPEAKER_02: It has nothing to do with meditation.
• 1:07:33
  It just has to do with being able to pay attention to what is
• 1:07:40
  my experience composed of.
• 1:07:44
  SPEAKER_02: How does it manifest at every moment?
• 1:07:47
  SPEAKER_02: And what are the factors that influence this experience at every moment?
• 1:07:51
  SPEAKER_02: And then learning to sustain it.
• 1:08:01
  I don't remember if we mentioned it in one of our recorded
• 1:08:05
  conversations or it was
• 1:08:07
  SPEAKER_02: just the prior conversations,
• 1:08:09
  SPEAKER_02: but we talked a lot about different parts and what...
• 1:08:13
  SPEAKER_02: how we want to welcome them all within oneself.
• 1:08:21
  SPEAKER_02: So it's the same.
• 1:08:24
  SPEAKER_02: So you observe, you become aware,
• 1:08:39
  SPEAKER_02: And then it's what's emerging.
• 1:08:42
  SPEAKER_02: And you learn to allow for this emergence.
• 1:08:46
  SPEAKER_02: And sometimes it requires being removed from the society for a while.
• 1:08:51
  SPEAKER_02: Sometimes it's not.
• 1:08:53
  SPEAKER_02: And then at a certain moment,
• 1:08:55
  SPEAKER_02: it might happen that,
• 1:08:56
  SPEAKER_02: okay,
• 1:08:57
  SPEAKER_02: you live in the forest and you realize it happened to me.
• 1:09:00
  SPEAKER_02: And you realize, you know what?
• 1:09:04
  SPEAKER_02: I want to come back.
• 1:09:06
  SPEAKER_02: This is what emerging is.
• 1:09:09
  is emerging right now for me that I want to go back to the zoo
• 1:09:13
  and learn to
• 1:09:14
  SPEAKER_02: interact with it from the way how I perceive myself at this moment.
• 1:09:22
  SPEAKER_02: And it might seem to me that,
• 1:09:24
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 1:09:25
  SPEAKER_02: yes,
• 1:09:25
  SPEAKER_02: I cleared all the layers,
• 1:09:27
  SPEAKER_02: I got rid of the condition,
• 1:09:29
  SPEAKER_02: and this is my true self.
• 1:09:32
  And then you discover that here's one,
• 1:09:34
  another layer,
• 1:09:35
  and another layer,
• 1:09:36
  and another layer.
• 1:09:39
  SPEAKER_02: Is the true self in the end?
• 1:09:41
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know, but it's another topic for another episode.
• 1:09:49
  SPEAKER_00: I would also add to everything you've just described,
• 1:09:54
  SPEAKER_00: which I completely see and it resonates,
• 1:09:58
  SPEAKER_00: I would add
• 1:10:01
  SPEAKER_00: You know,
• 1:10:03
  SPEAKER_00: also the choice part,
• 1:10:05
  SPEAKER_00: meaning like to own what is emerging,
• 1:10:08
  SPEAKER_00: own that this is where I am right now.
• 1:10:10
  This is what aspect of me is emerging as the strongest voice
• 1:10:14
  out of all the voices
• 1:10:16
  SPEAKER_00: in the system internally.
• 1:10:18
  SPEAKER_00: And being able to evaluate,
• 1:10:20
  SPEAKER_00: I guess,
• 1:10:21
  the situation you're in or the time period you're in and have
• 1:10:26
  more choice about
• 1:10:29
  SPEAKER_00: how you allow yourself to navigate those situations.
• 1:10:34
  Which parts of you do you give more voice and more energy to
• 1:10:41
  and which voices you
• 1:10:42
  SPEAKER_00: lovingly hold space for?
• 1:10:50
  I think that it's an empowerment piece only because you're
• 1:10:58
  taking the awareness and
• 1:10:59
  you're also making more conscious choices about how to ride the
• 1:11:04
  awareness,
• 1:11:05
  SPEAKER_00: which awareness you're going to give center stage to.
• 1:11:10
  SPEAKER_00: But also giving yourself permission to take more risks potentially and
• 1:11:18
  SPEAKER_00: Instead of going from fear, going from like, what's the opportunity?
• 1:11:22
  Because a lot of times I feel like we show up a certain way
• 1:11:25
  because of the fear factor,
• 1:11:26
  right?
• 1:11:26
  SPEAKER_00: Like, what are they going to think about me?
• 1:11:28
  SPEAKER_00: What does it mean for me?
• 1:11:29
  SPEAKER_00: What's going to happen when I'm 90 and I made these choices, right?
• 1:11:33
  SPEAKER_00: But like,
• 1:11:33
  SPEAKER_00: if we're holding space for the emergent flow of the whole thing,
• 1:11:41
  SPEAKER_00: the system within,
• 1:11:42
  SPEAKER_00: the system without,
• 1:11:43
  SPEAKER_00: the system between,
• 1:11:44
  SPEAKER_00: and...
• 1:11:49
  We're priming our pattern recognition brain for what's the
• 1:11:52
  opportunity here outside
• 1:11:54
  SPEAKER_00: of any of the fear factors that are queuing this reality.
• 1:12:00
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's the way to sort of navigate
• 1:12:11
  who am I in this moment in time,
• 1:12:13
  in this season of my life,
• 1:12:14
  in this specific situation?
• 1:12:16
  And also I have the freaking right to be different in the next
• 1:12:20
  situation and in the
• 1:12:21
  SPEAKER_00: next season and the next aspect.
• 1:12:23
  SPEAKER_00: Like I have the right to change my mind and step into that.
• 1:12:28
  SPEAKER_00: And that's also part of the occasion and it's totally cool and okay.
• 1:12:32
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, there's also a piece of that.
• 1:12:33
  SPEAKER_00: There's a bit like of the exercising will,
• 1:12:36
  SPEAKER_00: but also allowing yourself to stay fluid and flexible.
• 1:12:41
  SPEAKER_00: Because it is all unraveling.
• 1:12:43
  SPEAKER_00: None of it is going to be like the thing.
• 1:12:45
  SPEAKER_00: Like who knows?
• 1:12:47
  If internal family systems is accurate in the way that it
• 1:12:51
  describes us,
• 1:12:52
  right?
• 1:12:52
  SPEAKER_00: And I resonate with it.
• 1:12:55
  SPEAKER_00: And Dan Siegel, the way he describes things, right?
• 1:12:57
  SPEAKER_00: And just like what we've been experiencing and experimenting with.
• 1:13:06
  SPEAKER_00: It requires a fluid state and a fluid ability to
• 1:13:12
  SPEAKER_00: but also the ability to choose,
• 1:13:15
  SPEAKER_00: to hold space,
• 1:13:16
  SPEAKER_00: to change your mind,
• 1:13:17
  SPEAKER_00: like a whole slew of things.
• 1:13:19
  SPEAKER_00: Sorry.
• 1:13:19
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:13:20
  SPEAKER_00: I went on a tangent.
• 1:13:23
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:13:25
  SPEAKER_02: Fluidity resonates...
• 1:13:28
  a lot um i would say for me removal has been so important
• 1:13:37
  because i think when
• 1:13:38
  you're in the soup all the time things emerge and it's really
• 1:13:45
  hard and tricky to
• 1:13:47
  SPEAKER_02: tell um you know
• 1:13:49
  what what are they are they like what i want or what they want
• 1:13:54
  or what something
• 1:13:55
  else wants and so creating some space and some emptiness and
• 1:14:04
  some stillness which
• 1:14:06
  SPEAKER_02: is um also
• 1:14:08
  challenge and that's why i find that nature or sometime in
• 1:14:12
  nature kind of like
• 1:14:13
  really secluded not going for a walk or something but something
• 1:14:17
  bigger very helpful
• 1:14:18
  because it kind of brings you back into to the nature but also
• 1:14:24
  to your nature
• 1:14:25
  SPEAKER_03: mm-hmm
• 1:14:27
  And then something that's,
• 1:14:29
  I guess,
• 1:14:30
  my personal insight that we can be really so many things.
• 1:14:37
  SPEAKER_02: And so there is no,
• 1:14:39
  SPEAKER_02: like if something feels off,
• 1:14:42
  SPEAKER_02: if you believe that you should be a fit somewhere,
• 1:14:47
  but then it takes a lot of effort to be fit and always like
• 1:14:53
  lots of work to be fit
• 1:14:54
  SPEAKER_02: and like a hamster in the wheel.
• 1:14:57
  SPEAKER_02: then maybe you're wrong.
• 1:15:01
  Maybe you're not meant to be fit there,
• 1:15:04
  but there is some other fit,
• 1:15:05
  and we are so different.
• 1:15:08
  Actually,
• 1:15:08
  very interestingly,
• 1:15:09
  this insight came about from a recent experience with
• 1:15:14
  astrology.
• 1:15:15
  SPEAKER_02: This was the first time that I actually came into contact with astrology.
• 1:15:20
  SPEAKER_02: I had no experience with it at all.
• 1:15:23
  And then there was something that this woman whose book I was
• 1:15:28
  listening to,
• 1:15:30
  SPEAKER_02: she said,
• 1:15:31
  SPEAKER_02: well,
• 1:15:32
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 1:15:32
  SPEAKER_02: and of course,
• 1:15:33
  SPEAKER_02: when you're born,
• 1:15:34
  SPEAKER_02: this constellation of the planets is very unique.
• 1:15:43
  to this very moment when um you were born in this very place
• 1:15:49
  and um it's like we're
• 1:15:51
  interconnectedness totally and i still have to like do more
• 1:15:55
  research around that
• 1:15:56
  but somehow this really deeply resonated that whole thing the
• 1:16:01
  moment where i was
• 1:16:03
  SPEAKER_02: born like always everything played a role
• 1:16:08
  into who i am and like you know what actually i was born with
• 1:16:14
  and interestingly
• 1:16:16
  also when i um like did some reading of my chart i found a lot
• 1:16:22
  of things that i had
• 1:16:23
  been trying to suppress or to push away for a long time were
• 1:16:28
  there i was like
• 1:16:31
  SPEAKER_02: Wow.
• 1:16:33
  SPEAKER_02: So,
• 1:16:34
  SPEAKER_02: like,
• 1:16:35
  SPEAKER_02: allowing yourself,
• 1:16:36
  SPEAKER_02: Paulina,
• 1:16:37
  also you said the fluidity to be many things and different
• 1:16:41
  things and to not fit
• 1:16:43
  SPEAKER_02: even in places where you feel like,
• 1:16:46
  SPEAKER_02: oh,
• 1:16:46
  SPEAKER_02: this is my place to fit.
• 1:16:52
  SPEAKER_00: And the removal, absolutely, 1,000%.
• 1:16:54
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, for me, that's lived wisdom, lived experience, lived wisdom.
• 1:16:58
  SPEAKER_00: Every time I've shifted gears,
• 1:17:00
  SPEAKER_00: removed,
• 1:17:02
  SPEAKER_00: reset,
• 1:17:03
  SPEAKER_00: and I've done that actually many times in my life,
• 1:17:06
  SPEAKER_00: like big walkaways,
• 1:17:08
  SPEAKER_00: like really going on a walkabout,
• 1:17:11
  SPEAKER_00: you know?
• 1:17:11
  SPEAKER_00: And actually, if we survey literature and...
• 1:17:21
  SPEAKER_00: movies and stuff like that.
• 1:17:22
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's a big theme, right?
• 1:17:23
  SPEAKER_00: The walkabout.
• 1:17:24
  SPEAKER_00: Like,
• 1:17:24
  SPEAKER_00: when a human takes a step away from the norm,
• 1:17:28
  SPEAKER_00: that's when the human really has a chance to sift,
• 1:17:32
  SPEAKER_00: sort,
• 1:17:34
  SPEAKER_00: reset,
• 1:17:36
  SPEAKER_00: see themselves in a different way.
• 1:17:38
  SPEAKER_00: And even if they come back to the same thing, they're coming back...
• 1:17:42
  SPEAKER_00: with the different synthesis of the system.
• 1:17:44
  So they're able to experience that same thing potentially in a
• 1:17:47
  different new way so
• 1:17:49
  SPEAKER_00: that those reset moments are so important in every aspect.
• 1:17:57
  SPEAKER_00: And I want to hear what you've been pushing away in terms of astrology.
• 1:18:01
  SPEAKER_00: When we chat, I'm really curious.
• 1:18:06
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, well, with that, let us
• 1:18:12
  SPEAKER_02: Recap quickly,
• 1:18:14
  SPEAKER_02: just a few insights or,
• 1:18:15
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 1:18:17
  SPEAKER_02: some frames in Kasia's words that we want to leave today.
• 1:18:21
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it was a great conversation.
• 1:18:31
  SPEAKER_00: I want to frame that this was not necessarily an easy topic to discuss.
• 1:18:37
  SPEAKER_00: I witnessed myself wanting to contract a little bit at certain points,
• 1:18:44
  SPEAKER_00: feeling like it was a little bit even.
• 1:18:47
  SPEAKER_00: There was a part of me that was thinking,
• 1:18:51
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 1:18:51
  how is this going to land on someone that's listening and yet
• 1:18:55
  still choosing,
• 1:18:56
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 1:18:58
  SPEAKER_00: to express what I'm feeling or what my experience is.
• 1:19:02
  But I also frame that this is a big topic and not necessarily
• 1:19:07
  because of that
• 1:19:10
  SPEAKER_00: there's any answers that we can provide,
• 1:19:13
  but the sharing of the lived experience and the different
• 1:19:16
  aspects of it for me is
• 1:19:19
  SPEAKER_00: something that
• 1:19:21
  SPEAKER_00: I just really love.
• 1:19:22
  SPEAKER_00: I love to share and hear perspectives,
• 1:19:24
  SPEAKER_00: see what resonates,
• 1:19:27
  see if there's something that I can consider and take on that's
• 1:19:30
  new as we are all.
• 1:19:32
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, these are huge topics, right?
• 1:19:35
  SPEAKER_00: These are the biggest topics, I feel like.
• 1:19:40
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know if that was a good frame.
• 1:19:41
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know what Kasia would say about that.
• 1:19:45
  well framed she would have said yes we are deconditioning
• 1:19:49
  ourselves yeah that's
• 1:19:51
  true it doesn't matter who would say anything yeah i think
• 1:19:57
  you're right about the
• 1:19:58
  removal it comes to me that it's also just about you like you
• 1:20:04
  need to change the
• 1:20:08
  SPEAKER_02: conditions to be able to see what actually you are being conditioned with
• 1:20:16
  SPEAKER_02: So just like changing the environment,
• 1:20:19
  SPEAKER_02: changing the circumstances,
• 1:20:21
  SPEAKER_02: be learning to be alone for many people.
• 1:20:24
  SPEAKER_02: It's a challenge really,
• 1:20:26
  SPEAKER_02: and we need to learn it and yeah,
• 1:20:32
  observe and discover what else can I be and how can I manifest
• 1:20:40
  myself in these
• 1:20:42
  SPEAKER_02: circumstances?
• 1:20:46
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:20:47
  SPEAKER_02: Well,
• 1:20:48
  it was an interesting experience for me because I was feeling a
• 1:20:52
  little bit out of
• 1:20:55
  shape with my vacation in the full swing and some experiences
• 1:20:59
  that feel like,
• 1:21:03
  SPEAKER_02: yeah,
• 1:21:04
  SPEAKER_02: parallel universe,
• 1:21:05
  SPEAKER_02: maybe not parallel as we discussed.
• 1:21:07
  SPEAKER_02: So, but I'm super grateful for the conversation and for
• 1:21:16
  The fact that it was flowing and I enjoyed it very much and I
• 1:21:21
  had no clue where it
• 1:21:22
  SPEAKER_02: would take us,
• 1:21:23
  SPEAKER_02: but I liked how it turned out.
• 1:21:27
  SPEAKER_02: You changed the conditions and you discovered the new you.
• 1:21:36
  SPEAKER_02: Yep, another me.
• 1:21:37
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, well, thank you.
• 1:21:39
  SPEAKER_02: And thank you to everyone who listened.
• 1:21:43
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you.
• 1:21:44
  SPEAKER_02: And yeah, see you next time.
• 1:21:51
  SPEAKER_02: Thanks for listening.
• 1:21:52
  SPEAKER_02: How was it for you?
• 1:21:54
  We believe that the more people experience group flow together,
• 1:21:58
  the better off we all are.
• 1:22:00
  SPEAKER_02: More connected, more creative, more alive.
• 1:22:05
  SPEAKER_02: So let's expand the field.
• 1:22:07
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• 1:22:13
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• 1:22:18
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• 1:22:20
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• 1:22:24
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• 1:22:28
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• 1:22:30
  SPEAKER_00: Let's keep flowing together.