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Maximum Yield: Kiri Masters on Growing Your Retail Media Bottom Line · The Yield Doctor with James Deaker

0:00
My guest today is Kerry Masters. Kerry
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is a leading analyst covering retail
0:07
media and marketplaces. She is also the
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host of the retail media breakfast club
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which generates new content almost every
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day. She writes for Forbes and for the
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drum and she is a member of the IAB
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Commerce Board. She has also built and
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sold her own e-commerce brand. So, she
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brings experience as both an operator
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and as an analyst to this space. Carrie,
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I am so looking forward to this
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conversation.
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>> I'm so glad to be here, James. And I
0:40
just want to I want to recall how we
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first met, which was at the live ramp
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ramp up event in SF. We had no idea who
0:48
each other were when we sat down
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randomly at lunch next to each other.
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where we get chatting and we just had so
0:56
much in common and we had never crossed
0:58
paths before. It was total kismmet.
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>> It was absolute pleasure to meet you.
1:02
And for those who are just listening in,
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uh we are not from the same country
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despite some similarities in our
1:07
accents. I'm originally a New Zealander.
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Krie, you grew up until I don't know
1:12
what age did you grow up in Australia?
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>> Um I left when I was 24 so
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>> about the same. Yeah. All right. That's
1:21
nice.
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Hey, let's start at the top because I
1:25
have a pretty general audience.
1:26
Everybody is in some sense digital media
1:29
or pricing, but retail media networks,
1:32
commerce, it's a very specific thing.
1:34
Can we just start with definitions in
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particular? How do you view a retail
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media network as being different than a
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commerce media network? And how is that
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different than what people might think
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of as traditional digital advertising?
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Yeah, this is a a great question and a
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lot of people with a lot more a lot
1:56
smarter than me have been thinking about
1:58
what is the definition of this truly and
2:00
that the IAB in the US has actually come
2:03
out with very specific definition of all
2:05
of this stuff. So if you do want to if
2:07
you are a uh ethmology nerd I think
2:10
maybe go check that out. But how it's
2:14
generally thought of is commerce media.
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If you think of two buckets, commerce
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media is the big bucket. It's all types
2:21
of media that a enterprise can can run
2:26
natively.
2:28
It could include airline media. So on
2:31
the ste seatbacks on the app that you
2:34
use to connect to the Wi-Fi. It could
2:36
include financial services media like MX
2:39
and Chase have commerce media networks.
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Now it can include trai travel like
2:44
Marriott media network, Lyft, Uber.
2:48
So that is the broad bucket and then in
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that sort of ven diagram a very very
2:54
large piece of commerce media is retail
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media and it is still the vast majority
2:59
of what we would call commerce media. As
3:02
a total retail media is three comes in
3:05
three fun flavors. We have on-site
3:08
retail media which is the sponsored
3:10
product ads that you see cluttering up
3:13
all these retailer sites
3:15
and uh off-site retail media which is a
3:19
retailer that is uh extending their
3:22
audience to be leveraged by an
3:24
advertiser offsite through social or
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search or connected TV or elsewhere. And
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then finally, instore retail media,
3:34
which can include, again, definitions
3:36
can get very specific here, but it it it
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definitely includes digital screens. And
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some people would argue it also includes
3:43
more of the more traditional kind of
3:45
shopper marketing or trade marketing
3:48
displays that are paper um and other
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types of trade marketing vehicles as
3:53
well. But that gets into a little bit
3:55
too f too far into the weeds than what
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I'm usually prepared to veer into.
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Um, just while we're on sort of on
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definitions and and differences to the
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broader digital media category, when I
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first first started working with retail
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media companies, it's it struck me that
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they have to pay more attention to their
4:13
partners and advertisers. When I was at
4:16
Yahoo, um, I'm ashamed to say to some
4:19
extent we didn't worry if an advertiser
4:21
wasn't seeing the performance because
4:23
there were hundred or a thousand others
4:25
who would be next in line for that same
4:27
impression. Often you see in retail
4:30
media that particularly the endemic
4:33
partners, the ones who are already
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working with the retailer as a the owner
4:37
of the retail media network, you have to
4:39
pay them special attention. So maybe
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just before we get going on the other
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questions I want to ask, you can talk
4:44
about that relationship because that to
4:46
me that's one of the biggest differences
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from a retail media network compared to
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broader digital.
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>> That's a great point. Thank you for
4:53
bringing that up. The endemic versus
4:55
non-endemic. So some retailers like a
4:57
Home Depot, I was just at their upfronts
5:00
yesterday and with a couple of small
5:03
exceptions,
5:05
it is only indemic brands advertising
5:08
with the Home Depot.
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That's their priority and it it really
5:12
makes sense for them. So um that's
5:16
compared to some of these other commerce
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media players where it would be a much
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bigger share of their their sort of um
5:24
ad dollars are coming in through
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non-endemic and it's certainly an area
5:27
that like an Amazon Amazon
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um has been trying to build up their
5:32
non-endemic uh advertiser value
5:35
proposition for years because that's
5:37
totally untapped potential. Um, and and
5:40
it's a great point about with a retailer
5:44
and a brand, it's a strange
5:46
relationship. In the old days, the brand
5:50
was the one selling to the retailer.
5:54
They were trying to get into the store.
5:55
They were trying to curry favor with the
5:57
merchants. And today, the retailer is
6:00
selling to the brand, and they're trying
6:02
to get them to buy this media property.
6:05
And sometimes there is a little bit of
6:06
tension there because the brand, you
6:09
might hear this thrown around when it
6:12
comes to retail media is that retail
6:13
media is a tax. I have to spend this
6:16
money. This retailer is making me spend
6:18
money. They're either putting it into
6:20
our annual negotiations
6:23
or it's just a little bit of a, you
6:25
know, sort of lean leaning on them a a
6:28
little bit. So, it can be overt or it
6:30
could be implicit. And that's what
6:32
brands obviously really don't like is
6:34
spending money where they feel like they
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don't have a choice.
6:37
>> Got it. Okay. Now, when you and I first
6:40
met, I remember one of the things that I
6:42
enjoyed most about our conversation was
6:44
this idea of how do retail media
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networks grow? And I mentioned that I'd
6:49
come up with a framework where they
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start out in a certain way and they
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start to hit very well-defined limits.
6:56
whether it's the sales team limit or
6:58
whether they go off network for the
7:00
first time. And I saw saw it as a path
7:03
to maturity. You have a different model
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and I know in an article that you put
7:08
out you talked about the retail media uh
7:12
doom loop. So, can you given that we've
7:14
just talked about the fact this is big,
7:16
it's a growing space, can you just walk
7:18
through that concept and talk about the
7:21
challenges that retail media networks
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can get into and why it is potentially a
7:26
doom loop?
7:28
>> Yeah. Well, absolutely. Before we jump
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into that, I want to point out that
7:32
retail media and commerce media has
7:35
become this very exciting proposition
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because like a lot of publishers of of
7:41
the past, they look at that they've got
7:42
the they realize we've got these assets,
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we have eyeballs, people are coming to
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our site, they're coming to our store,
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wow, we've got this whole other business
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that we could stand up. And I have I'm
7:55
not going to name and shame, but I have
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heard of some commercial enterprises
8:00
that really should not be in the media
8:02
business at all are considering this
8:05
because it it does it seems like easy
8:08
money, right? And we'll get into why
8:12
that is not the case with re retail
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media overall. It has been growing very
8:18
quickly, but the growth is decelerating.
8:21
Um, so I'll just pull up some numbers
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here. Uh so earketer did a forecast for
8:27
retail US retail media ad spend to be at
8:31
uh 70 billion in 2026 but it's no longer
8:38
this I believe it was plus 20% growth
8:41
each year and it has slowed um in the
8:43
last year or two which gets me to the to
8:47
to this idea of of this doom loop
8:49
because um the easy money that retailers
8:53
ers may have been able to tap into when
8:56
they first started these media networks
8:58
has has dried up. What happened in the
9:01
initial stages of of a retailer setting
9:03
up a retail media network is funds that
9:07
were previously flowing through to their
9:09
trade marketing spend and shopper
9:11
marketing
9:13
immediately popped up into the retail
9:15
media P&L because suddenly there was
9:17
something that was measurable,
9:20
programmatic and they were being asked
9:22
to to to to contribute here and so a lot
9:26
of brands are like you know why not?
9:28
this is let's let's try it out. And
9:31
shopper marketers
9:34
I I I spoke with a number of them last
9:36
year on on the brand side for for a
9:38
separate piece. Shopper marketers have
9:41
loved this evolution towards retail
9:43
media because it is measurable. They can
9:46
modify a campaign in flight. This is all
9:49
the stuff that they always wish that
9:50
they had at their fingertips now
9:53
digital. So they want to move in this
9:56
direction. Um so that was the initial
9:58
sort of bump that a lot of retailers got
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to their media networks is from a
10:03
different pocket.
10:07
Um but eventually that you know the the
10:09
well runs dry there, growth slows and
10:13
what is necessary for a retail media
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network in order to to attract new
10:18
dollars and tap into new parts of a of a
10:20
brand uh marketing budget is
10:24
better technology to access different
10:27
types of ad units, different parts of
10:31
the purchase funnel, more awareness
10:33
campaigns, actually proving results of
10:35
these campaigns. And so all of that
10:37
requires a bit of investment from the
10:39
retailer, but they're meanwhile seeing
10:41
this growth slow down. So the person in
10:44
charge of the retail media network at
10:46
this retailer,
10:48
they're showing growth is slowing, but
10:50
we should really be investing more in
10:52
our people and our technology and our
10:54
processes to to get this going. And
10:57
that's where things kind of start to
10:58
slow down because the enterprise may not
11:01
have really bought in properly to this
11:03
this uh retail media concept. The
11:07
merchants who are in charge of what's in
11:10
the store and what gets bought then
11:12
always not always in favor of this
11:15
either. um we can get into that. And as
11:18
a result, the media buyers on the other
11:21
side don't see what they need coming
11:23
through the platform and so they just
11:25
kind of they they they pull back or they
11:28
spend with other retailers who are
11:31
making a bit more of an effort and the
11:34
the the doom loop is perpetuated that
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way.
11:38
>> It it it's interesting because you you
11:40
you've touched on a number of different
11:41
dynamics. one that often retail media
11:44
networks are started as sort of a
11:46
secondary business that's viewed as
11:48
potentially more profitable than the
11:50
primary business but without necessarily
11:54
a long-term plan of how to build out all
11:56
the right capabilities and people
11:59
particularly around the technology and
12:02
so do you see an underinvestment in that
12:05
technology as this goes on and and if so
12:07
how does that manifest?
12:09
Yeah, I think that the the initial sort
12:13
of uh tech stack that retailers jumped
12:17
in with from a few years ago, there were
12:20
a lot less options. Even going back four
12:22
or five years ago, we have a a large
12:25
number of SSPs and ad servers dedicated
12:30
almost exclusively to retail. Right now,
12:32
we have a lot of different sort of
12:34
technology layers and options that are
12:36
available. 5 years ago, that wasn't the
12:38
case. And so it might be a an instance
12:41
of a a typical kind of technology buying
12:46
cycle where you get locked into
12:48
something that quickly gets it gets
12:50
superseded in terms of like the best
12:52
best-in-class kind of technology for
12:54
that thing. Um and that might have been
12:58
an issue. Another is the sort of um is
13:02
managed services as a as an entry point.
13:06
And that might be a really great entry
13:08
point for a retailer to to dip their
13:10
toes in. But eventually the large the
13:14
the big spenders in media want to access
13:19
their own self-serve platform. They want
13:21
to be able to put, you know, uh,
13:24
initiate and manage and measure their
13:28
campaigns themselves and pull that back
13:30
into their own reporting models. Um, and
13:33
so these are these are a couple of
13:35
things that hold that maturity back.
13:39
Um, is part of that the fact that the
13:42
owners of the retail media networks
13:45
haven't thought about how to grow beyond
13:47
their owned and operated in order to
13:49
sort of have that relationship with the
13:51
partner whether it's the I mean very
13:55
mundane stuff like identity matching in
13:58
terms of the lists of their own
14:00
customers. Is it that they just haven't
14:02
thought about these uh these types of
14:04
issues when they're setting up the
14:05
retail media networks or what's the
14:07
barrier to anyone who's not the biggest
14:10
Amazon and and Walmart, what's the
14:13
barrier to them growing and sort of
14:14
embracing those technology solutions?
14:18
>> Yeah, I think you know since you bring
14:20
up Amazon and Walmart, they're really
14:22
the the 500 pound gorillas in the room,
14:25
especially Amazon. It accounts for over
14:26
70% of retail media ad spend goes
14:29
through Amazon. Um, and so you can't
14:32
really say retail media without saying
14:35
Amazon.
14:37
Um, and Amazon has played a very
14:40
distinct and different game for the last
14:43
10 years when it comes to media. There
14:45
is a good argument to say they're not a
14:47
retailer at all. They're they're a media
14:49
company and a technology a cloud
14:51
technology company um that uses its
14:55
retail retail business to actually pull
14:59
in all of this data that they that
15:01
they're using to to to run those other
15:04
businesses.
15:06
I think what a lot of retailers look at
15:09
in the US when they think about setting
15:11
up a a media business is they look to
15:13
Amazon because they're the biggest and
15:15
and it's a lot of sponsored product ads.
15:17
It's it's largely on-site. Amazon's uh
15:21
made a huge effort and a very successful
15:24
effort to expand beyond that which we
15:26
can get into. But um in in the UK and
15:30
Europe, retail media first began in the
15:33
store and they have a very um
15:35
sophisticated ecosystem around instore
15:39
retail media with digital displays, uh
15:42
paper, you know, this goes back a a long
15:44
time. Not like we never had paper
15:46
displays in the US either, but that
15:48
that's where retail media kind of
15:50
started. Whereas in the US, retail media
15:52
kind of really took off with sponsored
15:55
product ads on Amazon, on Best Buy, on
15:58
eBay. And so the the the context of what
16:01
retail media is is a little bit
16:04
different. But I would say that for a
16:06
for a lot of retailers with a robust
16:10
store network, people coming in and
16:13
browsing or frequent visitors or very
16:16
dedicated category shoppers. that would
16:20
actually be a better place to to start
16:22
or invest is actually in the store where
16:24
you have a defensible
16:26
asset and an engaged customer that is
16:30
really, you know, unique for a for a
16:32
brand advertiser.
16:34
>> Um, we're spending time on technology
16:36
and I I guess I'd implicitly assume that
16:38
was a pain point. But let me ask you
16:40
then from the advertiser perspective,
16:43
from the marketer perspective engaging
16:45
with the retail media networks, what are
16:47
the biggest pain points that they see?
16:49
Is it technology stack? Is it the
16:52
business model? Is it the lack of reach
16:54
or or is it something else?
16:57
>> Yeah, I think that the these things are
16:59
all related because the the technology
17:02
decisions affect access for the media
17:05
buyer. I'll say um before I did this I I
17:09
I founded and owned a marketing agency
17:13
for uh I was involved with that business
17:16
for nine years before leaving in 2024
17:19
and that was initially focused entirely
17:21
around Amazon. So we did Amazon all day
17:24
and then Walmart sort of started to pick
17:26
up pace with its marketplace and ad uh
17:29
Walmart connect ecosystem. Then
17:32
Instacart came out blazing fast with a
17:36
self-s served model in 2020 and that was
17:38
super excited and it's been it it
17:40
evolved very quickly from that point
17:42
from a retail media standpoint
17:45
and I'll I'll just say my decision
17:48
framework as an agent a small
17:51
independent boutique agency owner where
17:54
do we invest time learning a new
17:57
platform and e ecosystem and ad buying
18:00
network and thing.
18:03
It has to be self-s serve. That was that
18:06
was and that cut out so many options,
18:09
but that was really just a very sort of
18:13
simple curistic for is this retail media
18:17
network at a level of sophistication
18:20
where they can handle
18:23
a lot of media buyers and that the type
18:26
of brands that we were working with at
18:28
the time were largely mid-market as
18:30
well. So we did not have the the sort of
18:34
um the the the bandwidth or the uh the
18:38
interest from our clients to work with
18:40
managed service uh companies that only
18:45
offered managed service. So that is
18:47
that's a huge sort of um equalizer is is
18:51
there a managed service capability and
18:53
that is something a lot of retailers are
18:55
working towards and is it available is
18:57
this media available to purchase through
18:59
the places that I already buy media is
19:02
it in my the DSP can I buy it through
19:04
the DSP that I typically buy through?
19:07
Can I buy it through the front end of a
19:10
pack view or a sky or a flywheel? these
19:13
are all the the really the big hitters
19:15
in the retail media space. Can I buy it
19:18
through there? And then that's really
19:20
where the demand opens up to a retail to
19:24
a retailer is when the media's
19:26
measurable, easy to buy
19:29
and uh that's you know in terms of not
19:33
even capturing the long tail but
19:34
capturing the midtail that that's
19:37
critical. And you you spoke earlier
19:39
about how the tech stack has evolved,
19:42
the market has evolved. How many retail
19:46
media networks other than Amazon and
19:49
Walmart would check the box on all the
19:51
things that you just mentioned in terms
19:53
of being able to easy to buy through
19:56
those interfaces. Is that the majority
19:58
of retail media networks now or is that
20:00
the exception?
20:03
>> Uh that's a great question. Look,
20:06
there's a no one no one can count all
20:10
the retail media networks right now.
20:12
There's there's different um there's
20:15
different counts out there. I think in
20:16
the in the US it would be pretty safe to
20:18
say there'd be like 70 to 90 retail
20:22
media networks and worldwide maybe 250.
20:25
Out of all of those, how many would be
20:27
self-s serve out of all of those? I
20:28
couldn't confidently give you an answer.
20:31
Um, you would Home Depot for example,
20:35
when I was first looking at that as an
20:38
agency person back in 2020, I don't
20:41
believe it was it wasn't self-service
20:44
back then. But just going to their
20:47
upfronts yesterday,
20:49
everything is selfservice with the
20:52
exception of maybe their instore network
20:55
that they are massively investing in
20:58
because they have gone from a very sort
21:01
of scrappy
21:04
uh managed services team to now like put
21:08
they and they've made huge investments
21:10
in technology over the last couple of
21:11
years to now everything is self-service.
21:15
They recognize that is where the demand
21:17
is going to come from. If they want
21:19
brands to be investing in off-site and
21:22
creative and updating their brand pages,
21:26
they need to make that easy for them.
21:27
They need to cut the timelines down and
21:29
they need to get out of the way. But
21:31
that obviously requires a lot of
21:33
investment in technology
21:37
>> about to answer or you may have already
21:39
answered the question I want to ask you
21:41
which is we started talking about the
21:43
doom loop and some of the challenges
21:45
that retail media networks face as they
21:47
grow. How many do you think are going to
21:50
effectively manage their way through
21:53
that those challenges? And what
21:55
differentiates the companies that will
21:58
succeed and will still be around in 5
22:00
years versus those that five years from
22:03
now say, "We tried it. We thought it
22:05
would be profitable. It's just too much
22:07
work. We're we're walking away."
22:11
>> Yeah. I I think this is definitely where
22:14
we're where we haven't seen a flood of
22:16
this happening yet, but I I I do think
22:20
that it is coming. Um it is despite for
22:25
for some of these organizations, despite
22:27
the very best efforts of very smart and
22:30
ambitious people leading the media
22:32
business, they're not able to get the
22:35
rest of the organization on board.
22:37
There's internal misalignment and
22:40
philosophies about what kind of company
22:43
are we? We're a retailer. We exist to
22:46
sell to have a great customer experience
22:49
and and provide uh you know a great
22:52
assortment and and the media piece of it
22:55
was was never really a true priority. Um
22:59
I think that that's going to the the
23:02
chickens will come home to roost with a
23:03
lot of those. I think there's a there's
23:06
a number of different outcomes here
23:07
actually. The IAB in the US is is uh I
23:10
know that there Colin Cobburn who who
23:12
leads the commerce media um group at at
23:16
the IAB has come up with very thoughtful
23:18
set of recommendations about sort of
23:20
what what the future looks like for some
23:23
of these players that haven't achieved
23:25
um break breakout scale let's say and
23:30
not to say that they will need to be
23:31
shut down but there are some there are
23:33
some pathways ahead potentially in with
23:35
um
23:37
building or joining federations,
23:40
um allowing it to just be a managed
23:43
service and being okay with that. And
23:45
it's really more of a side quest than
23:48
part of the main uh the main quest of
23:52
the organization,
23:53
allowing the merchant organization to
23:56
manage retail media. I think that's a
23:58
very interesting and and smart path for
24:01
some of these retailers who have
24:03
actually had a bit of in internal
24:06
misalignment between media and
24:08
merchandising.
24:09
Maybe it should if it rolls up under
24:12
merchandising, there might be a little
24:14
bit more sort of buy in behind it. So,
24:16
those are some of those are some of the
24:18
recommendations. I don't want to steal
24:19
their thunder, but they've put together
24:20
some really good ideas on that. you you
24:22
uh I hadn't intended to ask this
24:24
question of you but since you've opened
24:26
the door you you said federation and
24:29
I've in my mind I've had the thought
24:32
network of ad networks the idea that
24:35
many of these small retailers are not at
24:37
scale and the only way they get to scale
24:40
is by coming together and it's all very
24:41
easy for us to say that there obviously
24:43
significant challenges particularly
24:46
around how do you share the customer
24:48
identity in a privacy safe way
24:51
>> um I think there's a huge opportunity
24:53
there, but nobody's taken a run at it.
24:55
Do you see that happening or do you
24:56
think that it's just going to be too
24:58
difficult to pull together?
25:02
>> I really want to hear your POV on this,
25:04
but um I'm aware of that there are there
25:08
are some successful federations in
25:10
Europe. There was one in the US um that
25:13
was run by Calitics that was shut down
25:16
recently.
25:18
Um,
25:19
like you said, there's a it's it's very
25:21
challenging with who ends up being the
25:25
glue behind all of this. And you think
25:27
about a a data clean room company, that
25:30
would be an obvious candidate. Um, then
25:35
there's a question of incentives for
25:37
them and and if you're a retailer
25:39
joining one of these federations, does
25:41
your value get diluted because you're
25:44
not really like in control of your
25:46
destiny? Does it give too much power to
25:48
the identity spine provider?
25:52
Um,
25:55
I don't, this is pure speculation on on
25:58
my part, but it is interesting to to
26:01
consider the idea that we haven't seen
26:03
any one of these actually get stood up
26:05
yet. So, it might indeed be
26:08
>> more challenging.
26:09
>> I might have a chat to you about this
26:11
one off camera because I've got lots of
26:14
thoughts. But but I will say
26:16
>> we've we've talked about one of the
26:18
barriers which is the the sharing of the
26:21
identity. I think that's pretty large
26:22
and as you point out
26:24
>> there are data cleaning companies that
26:26
can get around that. But one of the
26:27
other challenges is the fact that you
26:31
when you bring some of these companies
26:33
together they have very different ad
26:35
formats. They're potentially being
26:37
displayed on different types of screens
26:40
and they have very different economics.
26:41
And so finding a way I mean even set
26:45
aside retail media network just pulling
26:46
together any network of ad networks.
26:49
Someone is always going to feel
26:50
underserved. They're going to point to I
26:53
used to have my own sales team and they
26:55
sold out my inventory. Now I'm part of
26:57
this consortium or federation and I'm
27:00
underserved. And maybe they are. But
27:03
what what I'm where I'm getting at is
27:05
it's very hard to put the right
27:07
incentives in place for all of the
27:09
different participants in a federation
27:11
or a consortium or a collective to feel
27:14
like there's value over time which is
27:16
all and again you the other way you can
27:18
do it is to take a run at a joint
27:20
venture but then joint ventures have
27:22
their own set of challenges associated
27:24
with them in terms of how you share out
27:26
the economic value. I think it's an
27:28
interesting question. I mean, uh, I
27:31
think someone will take a run at it, but
27:33
it it's going to require a a lot of work
27:35
to get through.
27:36
>> Uh, nobody gets to come on the Yield
27:38
Doctor podcast without asking a question
27:41
about revenue because at the end of the
27:43
day, I always try to help people make
27:45
more money. So, if you were advising or
27:48
working with someone, and I know you are
27:51
more an industry commentator than a
27:53
consultant or adviser, but if you were
27:56
trying to give someone who is running a
27:58
small to medium-sized retail media
28:00
network one or two pieces of advice
28:04
about how they should be making more
28:05
money, what are the top two or three
28:07
things that come to mind?
28:09
My top one is to make it merchant
28:12
aligned and get the merchants on board
28:15
because then they will sell the media
28:18
for you.
28:20
They'll sell it for you if it's done in
28:22
the right way. If a mer if merchant
28:24
teams can see the value that this media
28:28
is not competing with my shelf space,
28:31
it's not compete. We're not turning the
28:32
website into Times Square. This is
28:35
actually growing the category. this is a
28:38
new tool that I can give my suppliers to
28:41
help them
28:43
uh reach customers and grow the
28:45
relationship and grow the category. If
28:47
you can get the merchants align, they
28:49
will sell it.
28:53
Now, that's like can be a very difficult
28:56
uh internal politic game. So, I'm not
28:59
going to say it's easy, but um that's
29:02
where I've I've I've been hearing a lot
29:04
more from um you know, the the from
29:09
everyone. Honestly, I keep bringing up
29:11
Home Depot here because I was just there
29:12
yesterday.
29:14
Half of their agenda at their upfronts
29:17
were merchants
29:19
because they kind of recognize how
29:22
important singing from the same hymn
29:24
sheet is to their suppliers. That's a hu
29:27
that's a big media network. I also hear
29:30
from some of these the the smaller media
29:33
networks that is a point of
29:35
differentiation for them is to have
29:40
uh
29:41
everyone at the table as part of the the
29:44
the JBP and the agenda setting for the
29:47
year is we have our merchant and we have
29:49
our media person. We come up with a plan
29:51
alto together and that is really
29:55
affirming to the brand to know that
29:57
they're not going to get a gotcha down
30:00
the line. They're not going to like try,
30:03
you know, give away all of their margin
30:05
and then be asked for more. Um, so I
30:09
think that that is like that's my number
30:11
one tip is like getting getting the
30:13
merchant team aligned and then you can
30:16
really work as a team and get better
30:18
outcomes for both of you. And so this is
30:20
almost coming down to sort of
30:22
interpersonal stuff. How have you seen
30:25
the leader of a retail media network get
30:27
that merchant team on board and
30:30
establish that partnership? What does
30:32
that process look like? How how do they
30:34
make that work?
30:36
>> I haven't been privy to those kind of
30:38
direct, you know, conversations. Um, no
30:42
one no one in their right mind would let
30:44
me in the room.
30:46
>> No problem. Uh, as we come to the end of
30:49
the time, I want to ask you one one more
30:51
question because you I I think like to
30:53
be a contrarian like like I do from time
30:56
to time.
30:56
>> Yeah.
30:57
>> If you had to pick one belief about
30:59
retail media networks that executives
31:02
currently have but which you believe is
31:05
wrong, what would that be and why?
31:09
Okay, I think that
31:12
AI enabled commerce is a serious threat
31:15
to retail media that is not being taken
31:18
seriously
31:21
because the timeline doesn't really
31:25
line up with the tenure of people
31:28
running these media networks.
31:31
>> Say, say more.
31:34
>> Okay. So if I'm head of a retail media
31:37
network, I'm thinking about my numbers
31:39
this year, next year,
31:43
and that might be it. And this agentic,
31:47
not even aentic commerce where bots are
31:49
buying things for us, but AI facilitated
31:53
commerce, AI enabled commerce, I'm doing
31:55
my discovery in AI answer engines. Now,
31:58
I'm not going to a retailer to figure
32:00
out what type of hair styling tool I'm
32:03
going to buy. I'm doing that in chat
32:04
GBT. So that means I'm dropping less
32:07
behavioral signals at a retailer. I'm
32:10
not tell I'm not browsing, I'm not
32:12
searching, I'm not leaving these, you
32:14
know, clues behind me about my future
32:18
purchase intent. Um, I might still be
32:22
buying that product on the retailer
32:24
website. Great. But all of that data
32:27
that data stream that that retailer had
32:30
access to before is starting to to
32:32
disappear. Um, and then also like the
32:36
surfaces that these ads live on are
32:38
getting less traffic and less time
32:41
because I'm getting to the retailer
32:43
later in my shopping journey. So, I
32:45
don't think that the retailers have any
32:47
incentive to sound the alarm on this
32:51
because they're going to spook their
32:53
advertisers and advertisers might start
32:55
pulling out and god spend the money on
32:58
chat GPT instead like that. We don't
33:02
want that. Um, not recommending that by
33:05
the way, but this so this is something I
33:07
think is it is a serious problem. It is
33:09
not shortterm enough for anyone to
33:12
really start talking about, but I'm I'm
33:15
uh I'm I'm sounding I'm sounding the
33:18
alarm. And I think that what it means
33:20
ultimately is retail media doesn't die.
33:23
Sponsored product ads don't die, but the
33:25
places where they live get reconfigured.
33:28
The where where retailers need to invest
33:30
in their in adventory needs to change.
33:35
need to think about where are the
33:36
durable surfaces, where can they be
33:39
competitive,
33:40
um how can they have a like a an honest
33:44
partnership with brands to grow the
33:46
category rather than this extraction tax
33:50
kind of perception that there is now. So
33:53
I think it is an opportunity for a um a
33:57
reset of retail media. It's not
33:59
necessarily the the end of it, but we
34:01
need to start talking about it now so we
34:03
can plan for that future.
34:06
>> I I love it. Uh thank you so much for
34:10
taking the time. I mentioned at the
34:12
start that you run the retail,
34:17
let me get the phrase right, retail
34:18
media breakfast club. Um and I know that
34:21
you're recently expanded onto Instagram
34:25
because I follow follow your move there.
34:27
what what is the best place to to follow
34:30
you and find all the interesting
34:32
insights that you have?
34:34
>> Yeah. Well, thank you for having me.
34:35
This is great conversation. I love love
34:37
speaking with a with a fellow um uh um
34:43
someone who who likes to kind of stoke
34:45
the fire a little bit. Um I think we
34:47
need more of it. Um I'm avail you can
34:50
subscribe to Retail Media Breakfast Club
34:52
as a email newsletter, as a podcast on
34:56
LinkedIn. there is a newsletter. Those
34:58
are places you can get um these sort of
35:00
snippets every day at 6:00 a.m. Eastern.
35:04
Um and if you also like a little bit of
35:06
a cackle at the expense of the industry
35:09
and all the wacky
35:11
weird things that we believe and do in
35:13
the advertising um ecosystem. I've
35:16
started doing some humorous sketch
35:19
comedy as well on Instagram as you
35:21
mentioned. Um, so those are those have
35:24
been pretty fun to put together and have
35:25
a little bit of I think we need to laugh
35:27
at ourselves a little bit more in this
35:28
space.
35:29
>> Well, I I have noticed and I appreciate
35:31
it and uh thank you again. I I look
35:34
forward to collaborating with you more
35:36
and thank you for taking your time.
35:38
>> Thanks, James. Bye.