Latest / America's Why Project / Episode 12: Part 2 — How Deep Listening Builds Trust

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Episode 12: Part 2 — How Deep Listening Builds Trust · America's Why Project

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_00: It's these very small interventions in the beginning that you put forward to acknowledge the other person's humanity and pain, and sometimes just ask the question: how are you in all of this?
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome to the American Why Podcast.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_02: Hello, I'm your host, Matt Lavinger.
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_02: Welcome back to the second half of our conversation with Marissa Korma.
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_02: Marissa has a very distinguished career as a diplomat and as a leader in the nonprofit sector, as well as the director of a major initiative at a big US-based think tank organization.
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_02: We talked last week about why people stop listening and what the obstacles are that can get in the way of listening.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_02: And that may be in a professional context, it may be with one's child, it may be with one's spouse.
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_02: But there are lots of ways that listening can go wrong.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_02: And we concluded our conversation talking about something a little bit different, where it appeared that a communication was going right.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_02: Marissa and her colleague went in and met with a potential funder for a project that she wanted to launch.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_02: And the colleague came away thinking, oh, this was great.
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_02: We're going to get the funds.
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_02: And Marissa said, no, we aren't, because they didn't shake our hands and they didn't set a time for a follow-up conversation.
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_02: And she knew that essentially you were being blown off.
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_02: So I think we've all been in that situation where people will say, oh, very interesting.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_02: Great to talk to you.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_02: But it doesn't go forward from there.
• 1:55
  unknown: Correct.
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_02: And what we're talking about here is the power of powerful listening.
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_02: How listening in a very powerful way can help you build your own personal power.
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_02: So let's walk back to that encounter.
• 2:14
  SPEAKER_02: Not that there was anything you could have done necessarily to get that money, but what might you have done differently?
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_00: I think with that particular example, it's not that the answer was we're not going to get the funding, or the interpretation of what happened was we're not going to get the funding.
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_00: It was perhaps we're not going to get the funding yet.
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_00: And in many instances, it's also about the particular cultural context.
• 3:25
  SPEAKER_00: It's not all the same.
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_00: And it's not just, you know, cultural in terms of Western versus Eastern culture.
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_00: It's also sort of, you know, public sector culture versus private sector culture.
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_00: It's really, you know, there are differences in the different cultural contexts of different organizations and their governance, but also in countries, nation, state, communities, etc.
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_00: And that's why the listening part is so important, because it's it, again, it is listening to understand and asking questions to understand, to better create a um a more uh clearer picture of who the person at the end of that negotiating table is, what their story is.
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_00: I remember this very specific discussion.
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_00: It was a roundtable discussion.
• 4:21
  SPEAKER_00: Um I was at the time advising um Prince Ali bin al-Hussein of Jordan, who's the king's half-brother and was responsible or was heading the uh Jordan Football Association, but had just also been elected as vice president of FIFA, which is the world-governing body of footballer here.
• 4:41
  SPEAKER_00: It's soccer.
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_00: And there were issues around female players wearing the headscarf, um the hijab, um, on the field of play.
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_00: There was a lot of pushback from FIFA.
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_00: Uh they had forfeited the game between the Jordanian team and the Iranian team that took place in Jordan because the Iranian team, female team, all wore headscarves, and uh FIFA did not allow it.
• 5:07
  SPEAKER_00: So we uh at the time, you know, decided, okay, well, let's, you know, bring people together who are um making these decisions in FIFA and bring female players from different parts of the region, including from Jordan.
• 5:22
  SPEAKER_00: There were, you know, our cat at the captain of the team, who was also the goalie at the time of the female Jordanian team, was actually, you know, covered.
• 5:30
  SPEAKER_00: She wore the hijab.
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and so it was a discussion that took place.
• 5:35
  SPEAKER_00: One of the officials from FIFA, who was a medical doctor, kept bringing up that one medical issue.
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_00: Well, it's too tight, it's, you know, it it's you know, he he had all of these different but then um but then he heard from the players themselves, and and and then his his even body language started to slowly soften, right?
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_00: Because one of the players talked about what it meant for her, for for her family, for her community, who was a little bit conservative, um, to actually be on the Jordanian national team representing her country in FIFA tournaments.
• 6:23
  SPEAKER_00: It meant the world to them.
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_00: And if she didn't cover her head, she would not be able to participate.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_00: Now you can have your own views about you know, uh, about the hijab itself as a headscarf, but but it is it is something that prevented her from participating, from competing professionally.
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_00: And um, and it's it's very interesting that you know when when you know that official sort of stopped pushing the medical argument and heard the personal stories, he said, well, perhaps there's a way to design a sports version that does not impact that.
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_00: And in fact, what we had anticipated, we had invited a designer from Canada who had just come up with a design, particularly for that reason.
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_00: And she was of um, she was actually Canadian of Iranian origin because she wanted to solve that problem for her own community.
• 7:25
  SPEAKER_00: And I thought this is very powerful because it's all these people who came in in the beginning so high-strung in their in their in their opinions about this.
• 7:37
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, you could feel the tension in the room, you know.
• 7:41
  SPEAKER_00: But then people started sharing their stories, particularly from the players.
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_00: Those are, again, like, you know, policy making is human.
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_00: It it's it impacts people.
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_00: When when people who who whose you know FIFA policies were impacting started to talk about how this policy is impacting their play, as players, right, as football players, the conversation shifted.
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_00: There was more connection and perhaps more empathy, and there was room for creativity to address the problem and solve it.
• 8:19
  SPEAKER_02: This is such a wonderful example, Marissa, because it illustrates so many things about the power of listening and specific techniques of listening.
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_02: To begin with, you say that it's important to reframe your thinking about the conversation to begin with.
• 8:39
  SPEAKER_02: So when you go in and you're talking to this prospective funder and they say, Great, thanks for coming in, lovely talking to you, let's move forward.
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_02: You say, We're not getting the money, but you reframe that as we're not getting the money yet.
• 8:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 8:57
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_02: But we have an opportunity to build a relationship.
• 9:01
  SPEAKER_02: We have an opportunity to build trust.
• 9:05
  SPEAKER_02: We have an opportunity to show mutual respect, and that this foundation of a trusting relationship can blossom into wonderful forms of cooperation.
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_02: And likewise with the story about FIFA policy on whether women can wear a hijab while playing, is exactly this story about building a relationship and building trust.
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_02: So people come in locked into a position and with very high emotions about what the hijab means, whether negative or positive.
• 9:43
  SPEAKER_00: Correct.
• 9:45
  SPEAKER_02: But then through this open listening to the experiences of the players, the room relaxes and enables constructive problem solving.
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 10:02
  SPEAKER_00: And in the end, we took a lot of these thoughts from the players, from the coaches, from the designers, put them into a presentation, presented to the governing body that actually changes the rules of the game, and it passed unanimously.
• 10:21
  SPEAKER_00: And so now you have specific designs that are allowed on the field of play.
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_00: And so that was a major, major win at the time, because again, it was really about just bringing all these people into one room and starting a conversation and listening to everybody's perspective.
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_00: The medical doctor had medical concerns.
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_00: We had to hear them.
• 10:49
  SPEAKER_00: The players, you know, it was an identity issue also for her.
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_00: You know, like playing football was such a, you know, a pride for her, um, and so on and so forth.
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_00: And so I think um, yes, the listening is sort of the foundation of all of this.
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_00: It creates the space for, as you said, dialogue and problem solving.
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_02: In one of your articles that you wrote for the Wilson Center, you you discussed the difference between formal agreements and warm peace.
• 11:23
  SPEAKER_02: What does that mean?
• 11:24
  SPEAKER_02: What's required for peace to become social, not just a diplomatic formality?
• 11:31
  SPEAKER_02: And why do we need warm peace rather than just formal agreements?
• 11:37
  SPEAKER_00: Warm peace is more sustainable because it brings people together.
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_00: Um when people interact, when people talk about their common challenges, and once again create space to listen to each other's positions and sometimes there's their trauma, then it becomes easier to understand.
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_00: And even in times of tension, I think that space, or in times of of crisis, that space may shrink a little bit, but it's still there, right?
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_00: And it may require an investment to rebuild trust sometimes, but there is something there that is based on this, you know, people-to-people interaction.
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_00: It's just that you cannot manufacture that separately from the reality on the ground.
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_00: It has to all be connected.
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_00: You cannot silo the people-to-people component from the political component.
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_00: It's very much all connected, particularly because of, you know, going back to what we discussed in the first episode, to perceptions of reality, um, perceptions of what that piece means and how people define it.
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_00: Uh if it's if it's just the cessation of hostilities and war and you know, marking the border and cooperating on security, that's great.
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_00: It's important, it's an important building block.
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_00: But if it doesn't go beyond that, it becomes very difficult to sustain.
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_00: And then that agreement will just have to experience a lot of pushback, a lot of pressure uh constantly.
• 13:21
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and and I think um, you know, when we talk about the Egypt uh Israel peace treaty, the Jordan-Israel Peace Treaty, they were historic agreements.
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_00: There was a lot more support for them in the beginning, and then it started to sort of wither away.
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_00: But that particular part that I wrote about for the Wilson Center was to mark the 30th anniversary of the Jordan-Israel Peace Treaty.
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_00: Um the cooperation on the security front is there.
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_00: On the political front, there is dialogue and communication, but there is very little trust um on the diplomatic front between the leaders.
• 14:00
  SPEAKER_00: Um and there is, you know, it's very often um described as a cold piece, particularly because of that missing component that brings society together and people together.
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I I think uh this is a fitting transition to uh our closing request for your tips as a master communicator, as a master listener.
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_02: Let's end with a scene here and then some lessons from that scene.
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_02: In in the last few years, where did you see people genuinely listening across a divide?
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_02: What happened and what should we copy?
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, I want to go back to Israel-Palestine for a moment, because one of the things that kept me, you know, going as an analyst was uh were all the stories that I saw and I heard about organizations and groups of people, Israelis and Palestinians, and in certain cases Jordanians, still coming together to solve common problems in the midst of war, in the midst of the horrors that each society uh had to um experience and reckon with, and in spite of the trauma that they felt.
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_00: And I think um those are there they may be exceptions, but that's where peace starts.
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_00: It starts with the people who lead by example, and the leadership does not have to come from the top.
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_00: You know, you could be, you could have a position of authority, you could be a prime minister, that doesn't mean you're a good leader or you're exercising leadership.
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_00: You could be a leader in any position, in any institution, and bring about change.
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I think the ability to talk to each other in those trying times is remarkable.
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_00: It's so very important.
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_00: I read this morning that there is a group of Palestinians and Israelis that have suffered familial losses on the Israeli side on October 7th, and on the Palestinian side, you know, family losses and killings on in the Gaza war.
• 16:29
  SPEAKER_00: And they are coming together to work towards stopping the violence, ending the violence.
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_00: And and that group is, you know, um, there were talks about them being nominated for a Nobel Peace Prize.
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_00: I think we need to ask them how they do it, to be honest, because it is remarkable, really truly inspiring and remarkable to me that they're able to do that.
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_00: But from my own interactions, it's really about, especially when it's so emotional and it's so, you know, sort of personal, uh, it's the importance in starting a conversation, particularly with someone you don't agree with or comes from a country that your country doesn't recognize, or comes from a community that that you know perhaps is is seen in a negative light in your community, it's to acknowledge where they're at, acknowledge the pain, acknowledge what happened.
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_00: I remember um with my husband who is from Serbia and you know he was born and raised in Yugoslavia, but but you know, then the war happened and and the uh Yugoslavia was was um divided into different countries.
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_00: In in the in an interaction between him and a student from Kosovo in grad school, the first thing he said to him before he started any conversation was, I'm very sorry.
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_00: And that opened up a huge, huge platform between the two, and they became friends.
• 18:11
  SPEAKER_00: And they him and his wife attended our wedding.
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_00: So it's it's it's these very small interventions in the beginning that you put forward to acknowledge the other person's humanity and pain, and sometimes just ask the question, how are you in all of this?
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_00: And then you move on, right?
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_00: And that's where it's really listening with intent.
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, going back to sort of like the nuggets I would leave you with.
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's listening to understand, not to respond.
• 18:45
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's so easy to say that, by the way, because especially when it's um with family, um uh it's emotional, and sometimes we just respond very quickly, but it's truly in the professional sphere to try as much as possible to really understand.
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_00: And then there's the reflection of what you heard.
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_00: Well, now you have this information.
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_00: How do you kind of like what do you do with it?
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_00: You need to reflect on it, you need to kind of assess it before you move on to the next question.
• 19:16
  SPEAKER_00: The follow-up questions are important because, again, it really helps us understand other people's why.
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_00: And when you when you get that, when you when you understand the their why and their purpose, it makes it a lot easier to have that conversation.
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_00: And then I go back to some of the things that we mentioned in the previous um episode, which is you know, notice the tone, not just the words, but words also matter.
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_00: Um and um and those, and like you know, the body language, um, but you know, noticing, picking up these cues are very important.
• 19:51
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, if you're presenting to a client, if you are in a negotiating table for a deal or for a ceasefire, all of these are very important.
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_00: And it it all starts with listening.
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_02: So this is just such a rich discussion, and you've said so many enormously valuable things about the practical aspects of listening and just the the issues of truly providing your attention, your full attention to the person you're addressing, acknowledging their humanity, asking or trying to understand their why, and to always keep coming back.
• 20:40
  SPEAKER_02: And the illustration you offered about your husband's interactions with his friend shows how enormous things of friends who join your wedding can come out of the smallest initial gesture.
• 20:57
  SPEAKER_02: So, Marissa Corma, thank you so much for joining us on the America's Why podcast.
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_02: This has been just a delightful and thought-provoking conversation.
• 21:09
  SPEAKER_02: Is there anything you'd like to tell us about your own work before we close for the day?
• 21:13
  SPEAKER_00: Sure.
• 21:13
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it's um very connected to the theme of this episode, actually, because um I recently set up uh a company, Amena Strategies, that focuses on strategic communications as a service, uh, but also Amena Foundation, um, which is very much an attempt to highlight the issues that sometimes are forgotten in the US MENA relationship.
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, and I mean forgotten in sort of like the work that we see happening in uh policy making and and uh geopolitical analysis.
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_00: So it's going beyond geopolitics to promote dialogue and exchange of ideas and problem solving.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: On issues pertaining to youth, to women, to marginalized communities, conversations about technology and how it's impacting society, about the workforce and about the socio-political dynamics at play.
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_00: So it's a drop in the bucket in terms of what we're trying to do, but everything has a ripple effect.
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm very excited about moving this forward.
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_00: And I have a great team that is helping me do this.
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_00: So if, you know, I'm open for ideas, but really at the heart of this is about understanding each other, particularly given, you know, my background as someone who belongs to both cultures and to both societies.
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_00: So I want to contribute in my own humble way.
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_02: Marissa, thank you so much for your time.
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_02: It's been a pleasure talking with you, and good luck with your work.
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much, Professor.
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_00: It was a pleasure to talk to you as well.
• 23:06
  SPEAKER_01: You're listening to the America's Why Podcast.
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_01: Our music is by James Fernando.
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_01: For more information and to join the conversation, please visit our website at America's Why Project.com.
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_01: See you next week.