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From Family Legacy to Strategic Growth: The Power of Niche Insurance · Brick by Brick - Wealth Building Conversations

• Cheri Martinen: The Smart Buyer's Guide to Home Auto and Business Insurance. So as an agent we get the same like questions over and over again. And I realized there's no classes at high school or college that are like, this is what insurance is, this is what you should be looking for when you buy it, this is what you're covering with all these products. and I know Google exists, but at the same time, I think a lot of people just don't use it. So this is a pretty basic book, but it's for anybody has Ever had insurance questions or just felt kind of stupid sitting across from their agent and not really understanding what they were saying? It's very beginner level. At the same time, I make it very entertaining, kind of with like the conversations we're having today, where I use lots of stories and examples to make it really come to life. so you are reminded when you pay that auto insurance bill that it's it's not just mandatory because you probably have a loan on that. that vehicle. but because you're protecting yourself in the event of a lawsuit or something more extreme where you need to replace the asset. Loren Wernette: Welcome to another episode of Brick by Brick. Today I am guest with Cherie Martinen. Cherie is in the insurance industry and recently sold her insurance brokerage that she bought from her family years ago. We're gonna talk all about what that transition looked like. She has a ton of experience working in an interesting space, specifically forest fires and some other business related insurance spaces. So I think that's gonna add a lot of value to us. And Sheree, before we get started, you're in Oregon, it's August. How's the forest fire situation doing? Cheri Martinen: yeah, you mean all those fires that are burning across my state? You know, we knew this year was gonna be a hot, dry one. We knew that we were gonna see some forest fires. There was some weather that moved through with some lightning strikes and we did see them. There are still a lot of fires burning. Luckily in our state, we did not have too many buildings burn or anything lost. Up in Washington State in Spokane, they had a large loss out of Spokane, over 600 structures. and now I just got word recently that down in Nevada in Reno, there are some structures that are in danger. So in the West, we're burning over here. Loren Wernette: So when you purchased your insurance company from your family, was were they actively in that space? and if not, how did you get into it? And what is it like to underwrite a deal trying to guess what the weather and fires are gonna do? Cheri Martinen: Yeah, so I purchased my family agency. My family, my mom and dad actually bought the agency in 1990 and stuck with it for a really long time. I grew up in the agency. I worked at like the front desk, left, went to school, did a whole bunch of travel, came back to the agency, and I bought it in 2021. And we have been doing so we ensure wild land firefighters. So it's the crazy people running to the fire, not the people running away. and we've been insuring them for over 25 years. We've worked with hundreds of contractors with the federal government on all different sizes from people on the line to support camp crew to bulldozers, anything that's in the fire system we insure. Loren Wernette: So how did so when I think insurance, I think of car insurance, homeowners insurance. How do you get into that? Or how do you find that as an opportunity? Is it because of your location in Oregon? Or was there some other event that happened? You said, there's an opportunity here. Cheri Martinen: I think some of it is our location in Oregon, yes, because we do have a lot of firefight we do have a lot of firefighters around here. So it's obviously like during this time of year you literally see them driving down the highway in like packs. So You'll see like five or six vehicles that all look the exact same with numbers on them, just loaded with firefighting gear, and then maybe like a trailer and then like something else, some sort of engine in the front. so yes, it's because we're located here, but also a smart man that my parents worked with for a long time, Michael Jans used to say niches to riches. And we picked our niche there was wildland firefighters. Loren Wernette: Got it. So your family was doing that before you took over control. Got it. Cheri Martinen: Correct. Yep. I've been doing it for a long time. Loren Wernette: Got it. And so you said you were working in the agency prior to owning it. But from what I understand, you got a marketing degree from school and you also had some sort of outdoor adventure degree, which I think goes perfectly with your firefighter insurance. tell me about hey, I'm an in working with this insurance family. I'm gonna go get a marketing degree. and what that connection was in your head at the time and what it turned into. Cheri Martinen: Yeah, so Lauren, this is fun because you kind of asked me like kind of keep it business. So no there's no seven or eight year old girl or boy that's like, I'm gonna be an insurance agent when I grow up. Like it like Loren Wernette: Ha ha ha. Cheri Martinen: it does not happen. I mean they wanna be teachers, they wanna be firefighters, they wanna be like veterinarians, not normally insurance agents. that was also the case for myself. And when I went to college, I remember my dad just saying, like, get a business degree so you know how to read a PL. And I took his advice and I did, but I got super sick of spreadsheets. And so the very opposite of spreadsheets was outdoor adventure leadership, where the classes were mountaineering, water white whitewater rafting. I took a climbing course where I learned how to climb. Like there's a whole series just on first aid. so in an effort to get away from Excel spreadsheets, I minored in outdoor adventure leadership, which I'm not mad about. I still use a lot of those leadership skills and lessons that I learned in that minor in my day-to-day now as a leader for team. Loren Wernette: I'm I'm jealous I do all those things on as a hobby now, but don't have a degree in it, so Cheri Martinen: I know, right? Next time. Loren Wernette: So so, but the other part of your degree was marketing. And, you know, Cheri Martinen: Yeah. Loren Wernette: I think people kind of overlook the fact that there's a lot of marketing to insurance. So it's fairly aggressively, you know, campaign. Think of Geico, Gecko, or Flow. But Cheri Martinen: Mm-hmm. Yep. Loren Wernette: how did you bring your marketing degree into your family operation? And was that a big need that your family already had, or were they already doing a good job of it? And then how did that translate into The growth that you saw and the eventual sales. Cheri Martinen: So my family started marketing like way back in the 90s. My mom actually worked with a consultant named Michael Jans and she did their first marketing campaign, which was a battery campaign, and she put batteries in envelopes and she mailed it out to homeowners and said, it's time to change the battery in your smoke detector. Call us for home insurance and it worked. My dad literally like came home and was like, What the hell did you do? we have people calling us, which is not the norm in insurance agencies. Normally insurance agencies they there's a guy or a gal, they're a producer, they go out, they shake hands, they kiss babies, they they like come into your place of work and bug you. Hey, let me I'd love to look at that policy for you. Hey, I'd love to look at the risk assessment, check out, see what you're doing. and for the first time people were calling us instead of us chasing them by a simple mailer. And so over time we picked up more and more customers just from having our name out there and us sending I think my mom at the time. We did a lot of contractors like in the early 2000s. And literally one of the guys called her and was like, please stop sending me postcards. I can literally wallpaper my bathroom with them. And she was like, Do you want a quote? And he was like, yes. Give me the quote. Right. So perseverance. and I knew that I liked marketing because I had helped her in high school with a couple things, but I didn't know anything about it. So I went to school to learn about it. I didn't come back to the family agency right away. I actually started my own consulting firm. It was just me and a laptop while my husband was getting his master's in our in our work from home, our second bedroom. And I helped a whole bunch of insurance agents with their marketing because they knew they should do it. They just didn't have a person to help them do it. So I built automated campaigns, did a lot of like blogging and so SEO this was before AI, but then you would do AIO now, right? So all of that skill of just like kind of reputation helped me get better at the marketing. And when my mom and dad were gonna sell, I didn't want them to sell to the people they were selling to. And I I said, I'm joining, I'm coming on. So I went and got my P Loren Wernette: Yeah. Cheri Martinen: and C in Life and Health license and me and my husband moved back to Oregon and I joined the family agency and they put me in front of a desk with a list of phone numbers and an application and said, call these people. Loren Wernette: Ha ha ha ha. Cheri Martinen: But it and that was a good learning experience. And a lot of insurance agencies just do cold calling as like their main lead source. We don't. So it was kind of special that I did that. Not very many people in our agency do that. Because we do so much marketing, we still to this day have people call us for quotes instead of me running around the state in a car, knocking on doors. Yeah. Loren Wernette: It's it's the dream, right? To have that top of funnel keep keep pouring into you. And I I think, you know, I w I don't want to say that marketing is an underrated skill. I think in some places it is. You know, I I'm very heavily on heavy on the marketing side, but I think from an entrepreneur standpoint, a lot of entrepreneurs get started and they're tacticians, right? They know how to do, let's in your case, the underwriting and the do the actuary Cheri Martinen: Mm-hmm. Loren Wernette: work. But they don't know how to bring the lead in. And they think if I start this business, if I get an LLC, people will just find me and I'll get business. And in reality, most people don't know who you are or care. And Cheri Martinen: Yeah, I know. Loren Wernette: that's what marketing is. It's making sure people are aware of what you offer when they need it. and and I think you're you're a good example of that, right? Those postcards of being there, sending all those postcards out, what that costs, a dollar or two. Probably spent Cheri Martinen: Yeah. Loren Wernette: a thousand of them to him. You know, now your cost of marketing for him is a thousand dollars and what his lifetime value is probably greater than that by a long shot. Cheri Martinen: Yeah, exactly. And I think sometimes we think of marketing as just kind of like the add-on because we we're all good at sales most of the time. If we start a business, chances are we're good at sales, or you should be. Loren Wernette: Mm-hmm. Should be. Cheri Martinen: You should be. and so we think it's part of sales, but really it is like a whole nother function. And now with technology and things like that, it's just more and more and more. You gotta be on the World Wide Web, people. Loren Wernette: Yeah. So so tell me about what that transition looked like from so when you started, you're just calling people that were on this list, you know, and you had some experience with SEO at the time. What did that look like as kind of time went on and things went more and more digital? What kind of practices would did you s continue to send batteries, nine volt batteries out? Or what did you do to change to keep up with how people wanted to be reached? Cheri Martinen: Yeah, I don't think you can send nine volt batteries anymore. The US Postal Service, kinda that one. but you could send like a nice you could partner with like Ace Hardware or the hardware store of your choosing. Home Depot, I don't care. You can do like a gift certificate. Yeah, not affiliated. Loren Wernette: Not affiliated. Cheri Martinen: I don't care which one you pick. yeah, we still do it today, a lot more digital just because it's cheaper. email marketing campaigns. We do a lot of like newsletter style. So like if you ever, if you ever reach out to me, I always say you have to unsubscribe or I'm gonna email you forever. Like Loren Wernette: Mm-hmm. Cheri Martinen: and a lot of it's for us, it's a lot of education. So insurance we know is inherently a boring topic where people think of it as boring or something they have to own, not something that's protecting the assets that they've built and work so hard to to build like their business. Loren Wernette: Mm-hmm. Cheri Martinen: And so a lot of it is educational. A lot of it is just did you know? And people most of the time stay on the list and it just gets bigger and bigger and bigger. At this point, we you we're not using like a survey monkey. We're using a specialty product called Insured Mind that specifically helps us market to our current customers and prospects with automated funnels and campaigns, going out with like voice drops, which are pre-recorded Voicemails that can go out along in a sequence with text messages as well as email. So you're hitting people in multiple ways and making sure that they know you're around. Of course, following all the rules. Don't like you gotta yeah. All is to follow the rules. Don't text or Loren Wernette: Hm. all his father. But but but I think Cheri Martinen: call someone without permission. Yeah. Loren Wernette: Yeah, don't do that. But I think that brings a good point of repetition and hitting them in multiple channels, right? If someone emails you and then you answer them and they never hear from you again, in three months, when they're thinking about that topic again, they probably don't remember that you exist, right? But that billboard that they drove past every single day and didn't think about, all of a sudden it's on their mind and it pops up. Right? Same Cheri Martinen: Yeah. Loren Wernette: thing. You know, we send out weekly emails to our investors, to our borrowers. Not because we're trying to sell them something. Most of them it's just information, like this is what's going Cheri Martinen: Yeah. Loren Wernette: on in this market or whatever. But our brand is in front of their face. And then when Cheri Martinen: Yes. Loren Wernette: they have that need, then they think of us. So it's how many touch points can you have with them that add value that then bring them back to you when they are looking for something. Cheri Martinen: Exactly. I know some of my agents are like, people are getting sick of you emailing them and I'm like, listen, nobody gets mad at Old Navy when they get an email a day. Okay? Loren Wernette: Right. Cheri Martinen: Like I'm only doing it once a week. They're gonna be okay. Loren Wernette: Yeah. I wish I could remember the company. There was a a big company that the CEO was walking through his halls and he's like, I am so tired of seeing these advertisements. They're plastered all over the walls. I see them every single day. And we need to stop this. We need to start a new one. And the ad guy's like, These just started going out this week. We've just been seeing them for so long. And so you see them a lot more as the owner operator of your business than the the market does. And so when you are just starting to get burnt out on them. The general market's probably just starting to see that. Cheri Martinen: Yep, I would agree. I do videos too, like on YouTube and small little clips for Facebook and Instagram. And I am so sick of talking about fired preparedness, but you best believe I'm gonna do like another seven videos on fired preparedness this week. Loren Wernette: Yeah, just keep talking until you're tired of hearing your own voice, right? Cheri Martinen: Exactly. Loren Wernette: So let's let's switch a little bit over to the business itself. And so you've got you've got the business, you're you know, marketing guru, you're taking it forward from there. What does the business look like now that you're trying to make all these marketing shifts? And how do you know that you're being successful in what you're doing, other than the dollars and cents coming in? But at what point do you think, okay, this is Gonna work and maybe someone's gonna come buy this or or was that never part of the long term vision? Cheri Martinen: It honestly wasn't part of the long term vision. I thought I was gonna run the agency from this beautiful pine desk sitting next to me for the next like twenty-five years. I was like, I'm gonna just keep coming in. Selling insurance, help business owners, help homeowners, and just make a difference in my small town, right? Like as a business owner, you donate to all the things and everything else. And like that's what I thought I was gonna do. I I think this happens to a lot of small businesses. I'm not a hundred percent sure, but in the insurance space, I get almost an email a day asking to buy me. Loren Wernette: Mm. Cheri Martinen: So I asked my dad after I bought, I like, Hey, did you get these emails? He's Yeah, all the time. He's like, Just pick one and then you kind of will learn. Like what you like and don't like. And he's like, reply like twice a year and see how it goes. And I was like, okay. And so every once in a while, like twice a year, I'd see one and I'd reply and be like, Yeah, sure, let's look at the numbers. And I'd, I'm an organized human who really likes data. So, you know, I had like my customer splits, buy revenue, I had all of my data already in place for my PLs and balance sheets looking really clean and all of that stuff. Like I personally liked it. Way so I Loren Wernette: Mm-hmm. Cheri Martinen: tracked it and had it easy to pull at any time. and all the ratios for like you know and employee output based on how many accounts they took care of, all that stuff. And Most of the time I'd send it out and like the people would come back and I was just like, ugh, like they would be like, you know, it wasn't a good fit. Like either we did a type of business they weren't interested in or they were looking for more of a benefits agency, or like we were too small or too big, or they didn't like that we had so much business with this one carrier, you know, there's always something. And I was like, okay, great, I still have work to do. Like just keep your just keep your head down. Like there's still work. You know, we had good Evida. I was like like I said, I was good about tracking my financials. And one day I answered one from One Digital, and it just kind of all fell into place. And I will say I wasn't looking to sell, but I got excited to work with the people and be a part of something larger. So It was the people that probably sold me more than the actual business deal and the money, dollars, and cents part because I'm bringing not just myself, because I'm contracted to stay for quite a few years, right? After you sell. I think a lot of people don't realize that. so like I'm becoming part of this company too, and I want to work with them and grow it, but my staff is too. My staff had to come along and want to be here and want to do this type of growth as well. And I wasn't gonna just give them to some crappy company and then leave. So like like that's worst case scenario. Loren Wernette: Sure. Yeah, that makes sense. I guess talk to me like, okay, you've got, you've meet one digital and you're Cheri Martinen: Mm-hmm. Loren Wernette: starting to have this conversation, you start to realize, okay, this is getting real. What does Cheri Martinen: Mm-hmm. Loren Wernette: that feel like? Like what feelings are going through you around, hey, this is the company I have, you know, I'm excited to sell, I'm not excited to sell, I'm nervous, you know, how am I doing the right thing? Talk to me through those emotions and then let's jump ahead like six, eight months to after you sold and talk to me about what that felt like. Cheri Martinen: It was exciting but also really scary and sad. So my the agency that my family has run has been in the business, you know, our family for thir twenty thirty five years or something. So like a long time. And when I bought the business, like I said, I honestly thought I was carrying on my my father's legacy for the next twenty years. So not doing that meant I was kind of letting down my dad. Right. I was letting them down. and it was also exciting in the way that I got to work with new people on more insurance and help like I said help more people. So one digital I literally have this sticker on my desk. It says what can you give to business owners above over and above what others are doing. So as an insurance broker I felt like all I kept doing was just the insurance part. But we know that's not everything a business needs. and one of the things I like about One Digital is they have the insurance piece, but then they also have the employee benefits, the employee 401k management, and HR all under one roof. So like when I'm talking to a business owner now, I can say I'm here to help you with your property and casualty, your your your buildings and cars and liability. But I also have this person here that's gonna help you with your hundred, five hundred person employees. I have this person right here that's gonna make sure that when they're done with you, they can retire because you help them invest in their future with their 401ks. And I got this person right over here that's gonna help with any HR issues that might come up. Like say you have a say you have somebody go on maternity leave in your HR office. God forbid, who's gonna replace them for three to Loren Wernette: Mm-hmm. Cheri Martinen: six months, depending on your policies? Like there's somebody there I can introduce you to to make sure your your business keeps flowing by that person's app. Loren Wernette: Got it. So it it's most business owners think of insurance as just a straight expense, like you buy it to mitigate risk. And what you're Cheri Martinen: Yeah. Loren Wernette: suggesting is like how can we provide insurance for a business owner that's not just an expense, but actually an opportunity to improve their business in other ways. And is that how you think about insurance? Because I can't say as a business owner, that's 100% how I think about insurance. Cheri Martinen: I understand. I do. So I look Loren Wernette: Yeah. Cheri Martinen: at insurance as protecting the way you've currently built. So I always say people say it's an expense until it pays. So Loren Wernette: Mm. Cheri Martinen: every single time you've bought insurance, you were probably like, god, this is a stupid bill. And then if you got in a car accident and then you got your car replaced, you were like, That experience was terrible. But like you don't tr look around and be like, but I didn't go out and buy a $60,000 car brand new again. Right? Loren Wernette: Right. True. Cheri Martinen: Like, like it was that was a pretty good investment. I paid a couple hundred dollars a month and got my sixty thousand dollar car back for my business or for my home or whatever you're using that car for. so yes, it is an expense, but I look at it as building back anything that is lost, right? They say insurance makes you whole. so after a loss it makes you whole is the language they use. Loren Wernette: You've got a got a bad thing with insurance of of being associated with negative incidents because the only way you recover any of your premiums is if something po poor happens to you. Cheri Martinen: I I always tell people I hope this is the product you never use unless it's life insurance, because we're all going one day. Loren Wernette: Right. Yeah. And then but then on the other side of that, you know, you're like, do I really want to spend this money if I never think this is going to happen? And that's where the cost benefit rel you know relationship and some insurance is required, right? but others Cheri Martinen: Yes. Loren Wernette: is like, do I make the investment in this in the off chance that this happens, right? And then if the off chance does happen, you're so happy you did. But otherwise Cheri Martinen: Yeah. Loren Wernette: it's just money down the tubes. Cheri Martinen: You're paying for somebody else. Like y yeah, it's all like the boats keeping everybody afloat, right? so I think like what like you said, okay, there's fires over here. There's fires over here, you know. Okay, six hundred people in Washington lost their homes recently and everything that they had in them are gone completely. The people in Seattle didn't lose their homes, but they were paying premiums probably to those insurance companies so that they can pay for those homes. Right? You're still Loren Wernette: Mm-hmm. Cheri Martinen: helping your neighbor and it's state by state. Which is also interesting. and that's just more legislation based. But there's something else you said too. I was gonna comment on. No, I can't think of it, sorry. Loren Wernette: It's okay. We've got lots of stuff. So going back to the pre sale, did you talk to your dad and get his blessing Cheri Martinen: Mm-hmm. yeah. Loren Wernette: or did you feel like you needed his blessing to sell? Cheri Martinen: no, I talked to my my dad and asked for his blessing. it's funny because after the sale, that's the number one question everybody asks. Well, what did Dad say about that? And I was like, Well, he supported me and loved me. Loren Wernette: Right. Cheri Martinen: what do fathers really do? it's not an easy decision to sell. It is a lot of work. I'm not gonna lie. If you're in the point of time in your life where you're like, I'm ready to sell my business, the amount of data you need to pull from your management systems and your vendors and everything like that. It's a lot of data. And it takes months. Like don't I don't know, I know that you do deals and they might take faster than that, but for our business and our agency it took months for both sides to feel like they had enough data to have the deal go forward. so It's a l it's a lot of paperwork. And some of it too, you know, like right towards the end, they were like, Okay, we're still doing this. And it's kinda like one of those moments where you're like, Do you should get a shit or get off the pot? You know, like are we gonna do it or are we not? Like there's there's only I was telling somebody else this the other day, it's kind of one of those like moments in your life where if if there was two versions what would happen on each side you have no idea but you like you took the leap to this side like both Loren Wernette: Mm-hmm. Cheri Martinen: versions could be good Loren Wernette: Right. Cheri Martinen: but you have no idea because we took one so I took the sold side Loren Wernette: there's no right answer, right? Just the just answers we choose. So was Cheri Martinen: Mm. Yeah. Loren Wernette: there ever a moment like you gotten really close to finish line and you're just like, I'm just pulling the plug, I'm leaving, I'm I'm done with this, and then decided to go forward with it. Cheri Martinen: I think there was, I can't remember exactly what it was. like an email came in and was like, what am I doing? Like, screw this, I'll just sit at my desk the rest of my life and continue to sell insurance. But I think at the end, you know, you always hear like what do people say on their deathbed? Is it the regret of doing or not doing? And I was like, Life's about experiences. If I really, really, really, really hated it, go buy another insurance agency and start over. Loren Wernette: Right. Cheri Martinen: I mean it's a lot of work and it'd be really hard. But everything's a lot of work and it's really hard. So you might as well pick your hard, right? Loren Wernette: Yeah. Yeah. Great. Okay. So we now s you've now sold. Give me what it feels like six months later. I I've always said that if I ever sold my business, that it would be about three weeks and I would be so bored assuming I don't have an earnout of years, right? That I'd be so bored that I would just start something else immediately. Cheri Martinen: so I have an earnout, so I have goals to make, which I've had these goals for myself anyway, so it doesn't feel like it's Loren Wernette: Mm-hmm. Cheri Martinen: pressured on me. at the same time, six months in was about when we started doing our agency management transfer, which is Customer, it's it's so our should see a management system holds like everything about your customers, including all of their policy, policy numbers, every single coverage that is inside each one of those policies, like all the way down to like drivers and driver's license of those drivers of every single vehicle, like a lot of data. and that was moving over about six months, and I think that was like the low of the low for actually the majority of my staff. So there's a big high right after it happens and like everything's good. Things are new and they're getting excited and you're meeting new people. And then about six months in, we changed management systems and it was like the low of the low. Every single person on my staff was like, this is the worst ever. Do I even know how to do my job anymore? I can't log into this system and find my customers' general liability policy. Like, what am what are we doing here? You know, which is not not the best feeling. I'd say now that we're a little bit further out of that transition, it's getting better. But there's still, you know, there's still stuff that comes up where you're just like, that's dumb. Loren Wernette: Yeah. Cheri Martinen: and it's just because the company has larger like more decision makers and larger needs for protection and different things like that than we did as a smaller agency. Loren Wernette: Sure. So so as a leader, how did you manage that low of low? I mean, obviously you're managing your own emotions, but you've got staff that you obviously care about and want to keep happy and don't want to leave because then you have to re backfill them. So how how did you help your staff get through that and lead them through that tough time? Cheri Martinen: I think I'm honest with my emotions. Like I like I came in and I was like All right, people, like we're it's you're mourning the old agency, right? So the agency Loren Wernette: Mm-hmm. Cheri Martinen: that was sold, we're like we're still mourning it. Like we like we're slowly changing our logo in different places, like on our email, on the front door, on the rug outside, on the wall on the front entrance, right? Like all these like little changes. And every s single time one goes, you kind of feel like you lost a piece of what you had. Mind you, we never remember the best. bad shit. We never remember like the phone not working or Loren Wernette: Mm. Cheri Martinen: like not having a tech support support person for this or this or that, right? So we don't remember any of the bad shit. We only remember the good, shiny shit. So as we were in like the low of low, I think I was just really honest. I like came in, I was like, hey guys, I know it doesn't feel good right now. None of this is easy. Like if you can get one thing done off your desk, I want you to write it down and like let's have a party about it. There was like a lot of just like little wins. Like anytime Loren Wernette: Mm. Cheri Martinen: there was a little win, we would just like I'd just be like, we have to celebrate every little win. A lot of chocolate. We brought a lot of chocolate into the office. We probably all gained like three pounds. before staff is stress eating. a lot of just like honestly letting people vent. Because although I'm like a very positive person who was like, we're gonna get the hang of this. I can see I'm already like getting better at XYZ. I saw that you did this faster than I did, like, you know, every single s time. like if you just gotta let people bench sometimes and it's okay. Loren Wernette: Yeah, I I love that. I giving them the opportunity to explain what's going on and not feel scared to to vent their opinions. And then also really celebrating those little little wins, right? I have small kids, you know, I've got two kids that just they're homeschooled. They just finished their school. They're waiting for me to finish this podcast so that I can go give them their piece of gum that they earn for getting their school done for the day. But like get them the little win, let them move on. It it's something small, but it seems to make a big difference over the long run of things, right? Cheri Martinen: Yeah, I mean that's what we did before the we sold the business too. You know, you get that one account and everyone's like, Yeah, we did it. You get that one renewal through and everyone's like, Thank God we did it. So I think just taking that into the new business is also helped my staff feel heard. and then also strong enough to stay with me here because it was not easy all the time. Loren Wernette: Nice. All right. Perfect. Well, that's great. Let us shift gears just a little bit. So I I want to ask you because I haven't had very many insurance people on the podcast, but I talk a lot about and I use AI a lot in a lot of different areas of my business. And I know a lot of business owners that are using it more and more. And so I wanted to ask somebody that's in the insurance industry, hey, how AI is impacting their business from marketing to their underwriting to how policies are wrote or what's thought about, you know, from different claims that could come up within this new world and and how that you're seeing that on your side of things. Cheri Martinen: Yeah, so a lot of people think insurance is boring and stagnant, but this is a great example of how dynamic and changing it is on a current basis. So insurance industry is really embracing AI as well, mainly because it is extremely paper heavy and extremely detail oriented, right? chances are, I don't know if you know this, but every single policy you've had renew probably has a change in it. So you'll have your general liability policy, your new one comes in for 2026 or 2027, whenever you're renewing, and there is going to be changes on those and they should be reviewed. But you have to know that they're there. And the company doesn't want to tell you they're there. Sometimes They do sometimes they'll put a these are the changes document towards the beginning of your renewal that you have to read and then say that's important. So one of the changes that happened this year was in the general liability policy, they used to cover, they used to like roughly cover AI, right? Kind of similar to the marketing coverage and general liability. So if you accidentally copied somebody else's marketing campaign and they sued you over it, like that would be under the general liability. So like they were kind of covering it in there for a while. but then in April of this year, they took it out of the GL policy. and I believe it's because they got a couple claims and the companies were like, we ain't messing around with this. So they took AI out altogether. It is not included in a cyber policy because cyber policies are for cyber, like ransomware, phishing, other like cyber attacks, like an incident, right? Where using AI isn't an incident, it's a practice or a tool that you So it doesn't go under cyber either. So just recently the entire industry started making AI writers that you can, it's like you can ask to add to your current policy and you pay additional premium for. And one of the claims I'm going to use as an example where it wasn't paid because they did not have the writer, is they had an AI bot on their website. You know, like one of those chat bots that will answer back and forth questions, frequently asked questions. The AI bot told the customer that something could be done and it could not be done by the company and the customer sued. So I don't exactly know all the details about it, but it was not covered because originally it was under the GL policy, but the GL policy has removed it as of April 2026. And so now you need to get a writer. If you are using AI for customer facing Anything where you could be harming a customer, yeah. Loren Wernette: I interactions. Yeah. Cheri Martinen: And so in that, if you're like a marketing agency and you're using AI to create content for your customers, that could be like another time you would want that kind of protection, right? because it would be the goods that you're providing were created with AI or AI backed in some way. So just thinking about like the different ways that we use AI and how it could harm another business or a business relationship in some way is how the AI writer should be thought of. Loren Wernette: Th that's kinda scary when I think about how ambiguous AI is becoming in emails we send to customers. I mean not just my group, but I'm sure everybody, you know. Cheri Martinen: But like like it's they have pre-filled out. Like you really should read them. At least do like a quick breeze. Loren Wernette: Yeah. Well and I mean like a lot of big companies, like they their people that work there will use AI that's not even sanctioned by the company because it's easy, right? And so now Cheri Martinen: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Loren Wernette: all of a sudden you got an AI that's not sanctioned by the company, sending emails out or use content. You know, Cheri Martinen: Mm. Loren Wernette: who knows what's email is actually coming from person versus an AI versus you know, like my stuff's usually like written by an email and then I edit it, right? And so Cheri Martinen: Yeah. Loren Wernette: there's there's a blending there. and then as you try to get more out of less people with AI, you're gonna see more and more of that. And so what is the the general feeling from the actual insurance providers on AI? Is it like we're just gonna blanket this big thing and try to not cover as much as we can, or how are they looking at it in two years, five years from now, when it's gonna be even more ubiquitous? Cheri Martinen: I think they're gonna charge you for it. Right? You didn't need cyber until you needed cyber. Yeah, right? until phishing and ransomware became a thing. Cyber just kind of felt extra. And then suddenly it was an insurance requirement. It was like if we do business with you, you need your cyber policy. Loren Wernette: Mm-hmm. Cheri Martinen: Like, period, right? And they were like, okay. So I think AI will be similar to that. I think it'll become a requirement. I think we'll just start adding it on, kind of like a lot of additional writers that we just automatically add on to protect business owners and to protect the people that they're working with. For the industry as a whole, I that. AI is starting to be used for underwriting. And I'm not exactly sure how that will go, but probably for smaller risks like a personal auto or a smaller home or something like that, that might be a hundred percent AI underwritten. They've already used like algorithms in the past to do this pretty quickly. But I think it will be a hundred percent AI at one point. And I am not sure how that will all play out or what it will look like. But they're it's coming. It'll be interesting. Loren Wernette: Yeah, that doesn't surprise me at all. Being in the lending space, you know, AI is very quickly coming. I mean, you're it's a it's a similar space where you've got a bunch Cheri Martinen: Yeah. Loren Wernette: of documents coming in, you've got some sort of task that happens in the middle that's very data driven, a decision that gets made, and then a bunch Cheri Martinen: Mm-hmm. Yep. Loren Wernette: more documents that get created. It is a Cheri Martinen: Yep. Loren Wernette: perfect use case, both your industry and mine, for AI to ensure precision, to look at things on a detailed level and to pr do stuff in volume, right? It's making sure that there's still people touching things at the right stages to make sure that we're not just pumping out things that are no good, right? Because I think your co your business would not be very happy if they AI underrator put a whole bunch of loans out and then those all came back and they had to, you know, provide funding Cheri Martinen: I would s Loren Wernette: for them. Cheri Martinen: I I think for you guys and for us, it's it's all the data in, data out, right? If you've got bad data coming in, you're gonna have bad data coming out. And hopefully AI isn't used to grab bad data. Like one of the things I can think of that happens even today, as we quote and work with insureds, is if you are renting a home and you are getting auto insurance for your vehicles at that address, so we call it the garaging address, you garage them there. Loren Wernette: Mm. Cheri Martinen: Tools now, data scraping tools, will look for any driver at that address. So if you moved into this new rental four months ago, chances are the old drivers from the previous tenant are still on that address. And if you don't make sure that data's really good and you actually read it and look, you're gonna be paying for some drivers that don't even live there. Loren Wernette: Yeah. Cheri Martinen: And they could be really crappy drivers with records, right? so like we're already seeing like these little tiny cuts, like little tiny data issues. And I think hopefully AI makes that better, not worse. Loren Wernette: I I can tell you so one place that it's gonna be slowed down is so with our industry, especially in real estate, right? There's a lot of really good data in public record, right? Deed of trust, all that stuff. And I'm I'm sure Cheri Martinen: yeah. yeah. Yeah. Loren Wernette: like DMV has really good data, but how you get access to that with AI is very restricted because of Cheri Martinen: Mm. Loren Wernette: rest ri just restrictions on the data and also technology. Like the government is not great at keeping their systems updated. And so I think It's sad because there's so much good data that could be used and it's just not gonna be available or at least it's not gonna be available in the speed at which the rest of the private Cheri Martinen: It could. Loren Wernette: industry is growing. Yeah. Cheri Martinen: Yeah, I see that in healthcare as well. Like I'm like, Loren Wernette: Yeah. Cheri Martinen: man, like if we could get those systems streamlined and it was safe to use AI, it would probably be really helpful. Loren Wernette: Yeah, healthcare's got a whole nother problem with the privacy concerns, right? and like Cheri Martinen: Mm, yeah. Loren Wernette: as a person, I don't know if I want all of my stuff visible to every hell, you know, insurance agent because then it's gonna impact me on premiums and everything else, right? Cheri Martinen: Yeah. Loren Wernette: but so there's a privacy concern there that, you know, the lending industry doesn't have. But again, yes, massive data set that's available that's not fully connected. And and I think that as we move forward, Connecting these AI pieces to different pieces of data and trying to figure out what those connectors are is gonna be a key differentiator. So Cheri Martinen: Yeah. So like at the end, if I scared you a little bit, if you have not renewed since April twenty twenty six, you're probably still good. You got the AI and your GEL. But your next renewal, ask your agent Loren Wernette: Mm. Cheri Martinen: to add the writer and just pay that little bit extra, just in case. Loren Wernette: Yeah. Cheri Martinen: That would be my two cents. Loren Wernette: Good good advice. Good advice. Cheri Martinen: Ha ha ha. Loren Wernette: So all right. last thing I want to talk to you about. I know you have a book coming out here shortly. I don't think that there's a date yet, a release date, but do you want to spend a couple minutes just talking about? I believe it's called covered. Cheri Martinen: Yeah, covered. The Smart Buyer's Guide to Home Auto and Business Insurance. So as an agent we get the same like questions over and over again. And I realized there's no classes at high school or college that are like, this is what insurance is, this is what you should be looking for when you buy it, this is what you're covering with all these products. and I know Google exists, but at the same time, I think a lot of people just don't use it. So this is a pretty basic book, but it's for anybody has Ever had insurance questions or just felt kind of stupid sitting across from their agent and not really understanding what they were saying? It's very beginner level. At the same time, I make it very entertaining, kind of with like the conversations we're having today, where I use lots of stories and examples to make it really come to life. so you are reminded when you pay that auto insurance bill that it's it's not just mandatory because you probably have a loan on that. that vehicle. but because you're protecting yourself in the event of a lawsuit or something more extreme where you need to replace the asset. Loren Wernette: Awesome. And do you have a date when that's supposed to be released? Cheri Martinen: So I'm supposed to be September 15th. I'm still in editors though. Yeah. I gotta push the editors. Loren Wernette: Awesome. Awesome. I I heard a a little rumor that the cover was denied that you suggested and it got Cheri Martinen: I did, yes. I wanted to do so the name of the book is called Covered and I wanted it to do like a bikini cover up like on the back and like and my publisher were like, no, this is a business book, not like a romance novel. And I was like, Yeah, but and they're like, and it's not specifically marketed to women. I was like, Well yeah, because men need to know about insurance too. They were like, You can't you can't do it. I was like, fine. I have a nice one of me holding an umbrella because insurance. Yeah. Loren Wernette: Yeah, insurance. Umbrella insurance, that makes sense. I think it would have been a great piece of marketing. It would have gotten a lot of attention in the business section of the of the bookstore. So Cheri Martinen: I know, right? Just like what is the Loren Wernette: Yeah. Cheri Martinen: Unfortunately I think that was the other thing. I think we came up with like protect your assets. Loren Wernette: Mm. Cheri Martinen: but that is also a board game and I do not own the rights to that. So Loren Wernette: yes. Yes. We must not infringe on trademarks. So Cheri Martinen: Exactly. Loren Wernette: no. All right. Well, Cherie, if anybody got a lot of value out of listening to you or has anything they want to reach out to you about or learn about, you know, anything, where can they reach you? And what's the best way to get a hold of you? Cheri Martinen: Email me, it's my full name, c h e r I.martinenm-ar-t-in-e-n at onedigital.com. If you just like to learn more about an insurance and you hate reading, you can follow me on all the socials. I'm on LinkedIn, you can find me on Instagram, Facebook, and YouTube, and I share information about insurance all year long, including about wildfired preparedness. Loren Wernette: Awesome. Well, it's been a pleasure. I will make sure that all those links are in the show notes so that people can easily find you. I really appreciate your time today. and for all of our listeners, if you got any value out of listening in Shou Sheree, please reach out to her. ask her questions, hit follow her on social media. and if you got value out of this podcast, please like and share this podcast with someone that might also get value. That's how we grow. That's how we make this podcast bigger and expose more of these great guests to all of you out there. So thank you for your time and we will talk to you again next time.