Latest / Becoming Anchored / Becoming Anchored S3E10: The Self-Compassion Lens of Enneagram with Jackie Brewster

Transcript

Becoming Anchored S3E10: The Self-Compassion Lens of Enneagram with Jackie Brewster · Becoming Anchored

0:01
Hi, everyone.
0:02
Welcome to the Becoming Anchored podcast.
0:05
My name is Laura Dineen.
0:06
I'm super pumped for today's episode.
0:08
We have the lovely Jackie Brewster on the show with us.
0:11
I have followed her on Instagram for a long time and she is an Enneagram expert.
0:16
And so I'm super excited to learn from her and for you all to hear more
0:21
of the wisdom that she has to offer.
0:23
My co host Lauren Jackson is not with us today, but she is with us in spirit.
0:27
So yeah, if you're new to the podcast, we are about two different things.
0:31
So first and foremost, we are humans with you all.
0:34
We absolutely go through pain and suffering and hard things.
0:37
And then we also go through the joy that life has to offer.
0:41
And we talk about those things on the show.
0:44
And then secondly, Lauren and I are both therapists and we just
0:47
cherish the work that we do.
0:49
We, we adore sitting with clients and it really is such a gift and
0:52
privilege and it's such sacred work.
0:54
And so we have the gift of sharing some of our stories as
0:58
therapists on the show as well.
0:59
And we, we love having guests on the show.
1:18
so Jackie, welcome.
1:20
Oh, thank you so much for having me.
1:22
I'm excited to be with you.
1:24
Yeah, yeah, so real quick disclaimer before we get started if you are in the
1:29
state of Tennessee and would like to reach out We would love to support you
1:32
And if not, we encourage you to reach out to someone at local to you but without
1:37
further ado Jackie and I were kind of chatting before we started recording today
1:42
and we really thought the topic of Just the self compassion that the Enneagram
1:48
invites in could be something that would really highlight All of the benefits of
1:54
unpacking your self on the Enneagram and all of the wisdom that there is to learn
1:59
from the Enneagram and I can't think of a better guest to join us for this episode.
2:04
Thanks.
2:04
So thanks for being here, Jackie.
2:06
Oh yeah.
2:07
I love this topic.
2:09
Self compassion.
2:10
I'm a coach that uses the Enneagram.
2:12
So in that, I think that that's probably a huge part of what I do is
2:17
like the self awareness, compassion, and curiosity with kindness.
2:21
To self, how do we move towards this?
2:24
Right.
2:25
And it's such a, in a gentle way so that we can actually see what's in front of us.
2:29
Yeah.
2:30
Yeah.
2:30
Yeah.
2:31
So I had not actually heard of the Enneagram before I became a
2:34
therapist and I've been in my own therapy for quite some time now.
2:37
It was introduced to me during my, I believe it was my internship as
2:40
a therapist about 10 years ago.
2:42
But I'm curious, some of our listeners may be familiar with
2:45
the Enneagram, some may not.
2:47
Can you give us an Enneagram 101 overview for our listeners who either are or
2:53
are not familiar with the Enneagram?
2:55
Yeah.
2:56
The Enneagram.
2:57
It is a personally.
2:58
I'm sorry.
2:59
It is a personality typing system that it gives us kind of a GPS.
3:05
of ourselves, like what's going on internally at a conscious
3:09
and a subconscious level.
3:10
You know, it gets down to like core motivation, core desire,
3:13
like where do things come from?
3:15
The fears that sit below the surface that really are that the driving
3:19
force behind those behaviors.
3:21
So it's different than other personality typing systems
3:24
because there's a growth track.
3:26
So we're not just saying like, here you are, so now go be this in the world.
3:30
It's actually this.
3:31
Beautiful tool for self reflection around, Hmm, am I doing this?
3:36
Is this how I'm showing up?
3:37
Why am I showing up this way?
3:39
Am I the healthiest version of myself?
3:42
Am I kind of in that average range?
3:44
That's just like, this is who I am, everybody.
3:46
And if so, should I look towards growth in that?
3:49
What could that be?
3:50
Or am I in the.
3:51
unhealthy place of myself that is just you know, I'm acting out behaviors that are
3:56
not beneficial for me, but they're coping strategies that I've used for a long time.
4:00
And oftentimes I'm not even aware that I'm in that.
4:03
And so the Enneagram, I feel like it gives us such great insight and
4:08
language to ourselves if we want to use it as a tool for curiosity.
4:14
Absolutely.
4:14
So the growth that you're talking about, you just mentioned three
4:17
different layers, if you will.
4:19
So there's the layer of unhealth and when I'm using that language, right,
4:23
this is not to shame our listeners or to
4:25
Not at all.
4:26
listeners or even our own selves, right?
4:28
But it's more just kind of a neutral way of seeing where we're at.
4:32
So okay, here I'm in unhealth, maybe average health, so to speak.
4:37
And then of course the ideal is I'm healthy.
4:41
Okay.
4:42
Yeah, yeah, so there are nine numbers on the
4:46
personality types.
4:48
Yep.
4:49
Yeah So how does one go about determining what number they are on the Enneagram?
4:55
Well, there's a couple of different approaches.
4:56
So nine different personality types, nine different ways of viewing the world.
5:01
And inside of that, you know, there's growth and, and stress
5:04
and all this other stuff in it.
5:05
But when we start, A lot of people start by taking a test and so you can, there's
5:11
tests online, there's tests in books.
5:13
There's lots of different tests out there that you can take but I feel
5:15
like it's just a starting point.
5:17
So if you take an Enneagram test, I don't want you to stop there.
5:20
I want you to get curious.
5:21
I want you to read about it.
5:22
Does that resonate with you?
5:23
It should feel both like exposing, like.
5:27
Ooh, I do not want people to read this about me and it should also feel freeing.
5:31
There should be two different components.
5:34
If it's your personality type, if you read something and
5:36
you're like, yeah, yeah, yeah.
5:38
All day.
5:38
Yeah.
5:39
Then I'm probably like, maybe that's, we're not probably there because it
5:43
should, it should ping some things of pain like, Ooh, you know, inside of us.
5:49
But I think it's, you know, I probably prefer a more natural approach to it.
5:55
So maybe I like a starting off with a test, but then I want the
6:00
curiosity to continue to grow to do the deeper work because
6:04
Sure,
6:05
you know what I mean?
6:05
Like when you take a test, when it's personality, it's not a blood test, so
6:09
it's not a hundred percent accurate.
6:10
So it's based off of how you're answering the test.
6:13
It's based off of your own self awareness.
6:15
And so I, I feel like there's not.
6:18
There's just not one way for me to answer that.
6:21
Yeah, absolutely.
6:22
Well, yeah, I mean, there's a level of like subjectivity there.
6:25
I think that is important to consider and the nuance there.
6:29
Yeah, so I actually took an enneagram test a while ago when I first learned about
6:33
it, and I think I was closer to a two.
6:35
But then over the years, as I've gotten healthier, I'm actually more of a three.
6:41
And that ping that you're talking about, I so resonate with and even some
6:45
of the posts I read that you do, I'm like, yep, that's, that's me when I'm
6:49
in my when Jackie's talking about the pain, I think another way to think of
6:52
that, if you're listening today to the show is just like some of that maybe
6:56
those physical sensations or those somatic responses that happen with.
7:01
vulnerability, right?
7:03
So let's just use myself as an example, right?
7:06
Threes, when they're unhealthy can be chameleons and they can you know,
7:10
want to change who they are, how they show up based on the people
7:13
that they're around versus that's when we're in our unhealth, right?
7:17
Versus when we're in our health, we are authentic to what we.
7:21
Actually value and we are showing up with congruency in different environments.
7:26
So that has, that did ping, so to speak, for me, because in my unhealth, I can
7:31
tend to behave more like a chameleon and so that is a good barometer for me
7:35
of like, okay, am I in my unhealth or
7:38
Mm-Hmm.
7:39
. Mm-Hmm
7:39
So I just wanted to elaborate on what you were referencing
7:42
Right.
7:43
Mm-Hmm.
7:43
ping there.
7:44
Yeah, I know that's such a weird way to say it.
7:47
I love the somatic response to that though, like, how
7:49
do you feel it in your body?
7:51
Because it is kind of like, ooh, I don't like the way that that felt.
7:53
You know, like that was like, I don't like reading that.
7:56
I do think that, that chameleon piece and that curiosity that you're
8:00
talking about, it is kind of like, ooh, why did I just show up like that?
8:03
Like, what's going on below the surface that made me show up like that?
8:06
I do, that is my approach with the Enneagram.
8:09
It is a softer, more empathetic and self compassionate approach so that we can
8:15
move towards the, the information and not get our defenses go up so fast, right?
8:21
You know, sometimes it's, we just, we'll hit, we'll hit into something.
8:27
If our defenses go up, then we kind of lose the ability to get curious around it.
8:32
So that chameleon piece is, is a really good one for the threes to look at.
8:36
You're right.
8:37
Mm hmm.
8:37
Mm
8:38
Sure.
8:38
Yeah.
8:39
Yeah.
8:39
And that defensiveness going up makes a lot of sense I think, right?
8:43
Because we as humans are designed to avoid pain or we have a hard
8:49
time leaning into our pain.
8:50
And so for me just being very vulnerable today, it has been painful, right?
8:55
To really work on that chameleon self and to lean into authenticity.
9:00
And there's lots of different reasons for that.
9:02
You know, but there's the risk there of like, okay, if I am authentic and
9:06
if I share what I actually think, are people going to reject me, or am
9:08
I not going to belong in this group of people, or whatever it might be.
9:11
And so, there's typically layers there that are leading
9:15
to those defenses going up.
9:17
And when I can name that for myself, then I'm able to invite in that spirit
9:21
of compassion versus like, Oh my gosh, I can't believe I'm a three.
9:26
I want to be a different number.
9:27
I've heard that from clients.
9:29
I want to be a different number on the Enneagram.
9:31
Yes.
9:32
I hear that all the time.
9:33
What do you think about the, on the chameleon side because I, I
9:38
sometimes approach that different.
9:39
So listening to you approach it as a three, I love to learn.
9:43
Like, one of my favorite things is to hear other people talk about their types and,
9:47
and for me to learn, you know, as a, as a, a practitioner of the Enneagram but with
9:53
that, that chameleon piece, I oftentimes say it's actually a gift in a lot of
9:57
ways that you guys can go into spaces, you can read rooms and you can adapt and
10:03
shift as long as it is authentic, check.
10:07
To who you are or it's not manipulating the environment
10:11
or different things like that.
10:12
But I think that is, you know, that is a gift of you guys as well.
10:17
If it's not distorted, what is, what do you think about that?
10:21
Yeah.
10:21
And I think that has been one of the reasons that you know, I have anchored
10:26
even right is because I, we have lots of different types of therapists
10:30
on staff and I do think that I'm able to meet them where they are.
10:34
Right.
10:34
I'm certainly not perfect.
10:35
And I'm the first to say, like, I have not done everything perfectly running
10:39
the business and owning the business.
10:40
But there is a piece of like, say we have providers for lunch and maybe
10:45
One provider is more soft spoken.
10:48
I, I pick up on that pretty quickly and I'm able to really like shift how
10:53
I show up versus maybe a provider that we're hosting for lunch that's a little
10:57
bit more boisterous and gregarious.
11:00
I can match that as well.
11:02
And so I do see what you're saying.
11:05
I think the ability to read a room, to connect with lots
11:09
of different types of people.
11:11
Is a gift of mine and can be authentic and it is really important for me to check in
11:17
with myself of like, am I doing this from a place of authenticity or is this more
11:22
from maybe a manipulative I don't know,
11:26
Oh, or scared.
11:28
Yeah.
11:28
Or even
11:29
interesting.
11:30
yeah.
11:31
Yeah, even a scared place.
11:32
Yeah.
11:32
I just yeah, that's, I like to, yeah, I like to learn.
11:36
So I'm like, what, what do you think about that as a three?
11:39
Yeah.
11:39
I'd
11:40
Yeah.
11:40
I think my intention is really important, right?
11:43
Like,
11:43
hmm.
11:44
and knowing myself well because somebody else, I might not be able to discern that,
11:50
right, but I know how I'm showing up.
11:53
Is it because I'm trying to people please or get them to like me or what have you?
11:59
Or is it because I genuinely want everyone to feel safe and have a sense of belonging
12:06
and all the things that I do think are wonderful traits of being a three?
12:12
I do too.
12:13
I think it's one of the neat parts of the three that but, but like you said, there's
12:17
a, there's a, there's a balance to it.
12:20
Mm hmm.
12:21
Mm hmm.
12:23
Yeah.
12:23
It's interesting.
12:24
My husband and I, when we were doing some premarital counseling
12:27
he'd never taken the enneagram.
12:28
And once he took it, he scored a one.
12:31
And it was just such a helpful framework for us to talk about how ones and
12:36
threes are, you know, in relationship with one another, we can tend to be
12:41
hard on ourselves and other people.
12:44
We can tend to be high achieving and Yeah, he he walks around the
12:48
house sometimes and he's like, oh, I guess that's my one showing up
12:51
and we have some humor around it.
12:53
And so I do think having some humor in the context of the Enneagram is
12:58
also a way to invite in compassion.
13:00
Yes.
13:02
It's like, okay, I, I want to do this thing and I recognize that that's my
13:05
unhealth showing up and so how can I maybe, for him, right, like that,
13:10
that one struggles with rigidity and maybe some internal, or not some,
13:13
but a lot of internal criticism, so how can I soften that a little bit
13:17
but it is funny, he, he definitely like uses some of the like therapy
13:20
steer coach jargon in our own, yeah,
13:24
That's funny.
13:25
That's funny.
13:26
It is.
13:26
I do think humor is a huge piece of being able to, to move
13:29
towards the, the information.
13:33
I think we all need, we all need that self compassion and oftentimes
13:37
we need compassion from other people to be able to do the work.
13:40
So if we feel like it's, we're just looking at a bunch of stuff and it's just
13:44
negativity coming at us about ourselves, that could feel really, I don't know.
13:50
Disappointing.
13:51
Like it could feel real.
13:52
It could really shut somebody down, but I see it a lot.
13:55
I feel like a lot of people, when they look at the Enneagram, their Enneagram,
13:58
their personality types, they immediately see the negative and not the positive.
14:02
And so I'm an Enneagram seven.
14:04
So I'm the enthusiast.
14:05
I reframe everything to the positive.
14:07
So a lot of the, the, I guess my focus, even working with people is like,
14:12
yes, we're going to go into it and then we're going to move towards it.
14:15
Just kind of like, probably what I just did with you.
14:18
In
14:18
Yeah, I was going to say, like with the chameleon,
14:20
Yeah.
14:21
I didn't, as I said it, I'm like, I just kind of did that.
14:23
Like, yes.
14:24
And yes, like I, I want you to see that.
14:27
And I want you to see health and growth, you know, like cause my goal
14:31
with anybody that I work with is I want that, that health and growth side.
14:35
I want them to see the good and that, that they can move towards
14:39
that and find balance in that.
14:42
absolutely.
14:43
Yeah.
14:43
And I think, I mean, in the therapeutic space, we talk
14:46
about like the and word, right.
14:49
And, you know, but really stops our ability to get curious and
14:53
it might, it might lend itself towards more judgment or more shame.
14:57
And so I love.
14:59
The and word, and it's honestly become one of my favorite words and it's,
15:03
it's such a simple word, but it invites in so much more curiosity and yeah,
15:07
you just did it with me when, when we were talking about the chameleon.
15:10
So I love that.
15:11
Yeah.
15:12
That's neat.
15:12
Yeah.
15:14
Mm hmm.
15:14
Mm hmm.
15:15
So I'm curious with numbers specifically, where, so we can take the test, right?
15:20
But even on a, on a deeper level, how is our number instilled in us?
15:26
Mm.
15:27
Mm hmm.
15:27
a good question.
15:28
You can help me answer this one.
15:30
I'm sure as a therapist.
15:31
So it's both the way that I look at it.
15:34
There's lots of different teachers and lots of different thoughts on stuff.
15:37
So the way that I approach the Enneagram is both nurture and nature.
15:40
So I'm going to approach it from.
15:42
From both pieces that were born with the temperament that's within us.
15:46
And our temperament doesn't change.
15:47
So we're born into our environments and our environments are filled with people
15:52
that have different personality types.
15:54
And so we've got these, this temperament that is in us, we come into these
15:58
family units and if they, if they've done work or if they haven't done work,
16:03
that's going to affect our environment.
16:05
And so that nature, that nurture and nature piece, they both.
16:09
Play a part in your personality.
16:12
So I've got four different, I've got four kids and they all have different
16:15
personality types, but they're all from, you know, in, in our same home.
16:21
And so how can that be if it's just.
16:25
Your home is the thing that makes the personality.
16:27
It's not it's like it's the person.
16:30
It's the individual It's the the way that that you take in information and
16:34
those really formative years, you know one to five the I really think that
16:39
attachment has a huge play and What happens in those early years and then
16:45
how our personality forms inside of that?
16:48
So there's layers to it, but I believe that it's both nurture and nature.
16:53
Yeah.
16:53
I mean, I absolutely think so as well.
16:55
And I were born into this world, right?
16:57
With that genetic makeup.
16:59
And then I do agree with you that our attachment experiences, our
17:04
emotional experiences with our primary caregivers absolutely matter.
17:09
Yeah.
17:10
Well, and I think that's, you know, we're talking about this broader
17:12
topic of inviting and compassion.
17:14
And I think that does invite in compassion and gives clients an opportunity, say
17:19
a client might identify that they're.
17:21
You know, one number on the Enneagram and maybe they're, they lend themselves
17:25
more to, towards being in that unhealth.
17:27
It's like, okay, well, let's get curious about even little you,
17:31
Oh, yes.
17:32
Mm hmm.
17:33
what your environment was like growing up and, and why, you know,
17:38
you might be engaging in these.
17:39
And then the next question is, how do you, how do you help those who
17:41
are experiencing these behaviors, so to speak, or ways of showing up in
17:42
the world that are more unhealthy?
17:44
How did that serve you back then?
17:46
How can you move forward towards growth like you're talking about now?
17:49
I mean, those would all be questions in a therapeutic space, and I'm sure that
17:52
you work with on clients as well that, that do inviting compassion versus like,
17:57
oh, we'll just like stop being that way.
17:58
Oh, right.
17:59
Right.
18:00
Like if you, this is the approach so that I take.
18:04
So if you can name it, you can tame it, right?
18:06
So if we can, if we.
18:07
can put some words to what we're, what we're experiencing.
18:10
That's going to help us.
18:11
We have to acknowledge it or we can't change it.
18:14
So we can't just, I, I don't want to change behavior.
18:19
Like I want, I want heart transformation more than behavior modification.
18:24
And I know that there's.
18:25
That there is room for behavior modification in different
18:27
situations, all kinds of stuff.
18:28
So I'm not discrediting the work that, that people do in that at all.
18:33
But when I'm talking about like what you just said around, like,
18:37
well, just stop doing that.
18:38
Well, I think that if we could, we would.
18:41
So it's more like, well, why am I doing that to begin with?
18:44
Like, where is that coming from?
18:47
So the framework that I use, I do a lot of work.
18:50
around the unconscious childhood messaging and the heart longing
18:53
message for personality types.
18:56
And so when we go back to that, I am going back into the story of
19:00
the little of them, like what, you know, what was the environment like?
19:04
What did that look like?
19:05
And then how, you know, how did you learn to get love, get your
19:09
needs met and keep yourself safe?
19:10
So how did you do that then?
19:12
And then let's move up to now, like, how are we doing it now?
19:15
Is it the same?
19:16
Is it a modified version of that?
19:18
Probably.
19:18
Is it still working for you?
19:20
And then we'll kind of move into, into, you know, some work around yes or no.
19:26
And then.
19:27
What does it look like to release?
19:29
And I just think it's a process.
19:31
Nothing is fast.
19:32
So even though you see something about yourself and you're
19:35
like, Oh, I don't like that.
19:35
I want to change that.
19:36
Well, it didn't just happen overnight.
19:38
So if you, we want to change it, I felt like we got to figure
19:41
out where it came from and then.
19:44
How do we change, you know, and then are we safe enough as our environment
19:48
saved or do we have safe connections?
19:50
Do we have the support that we need to be able to make the changes?
19:53
Right.
19:54
It's so layered.
19:55
It is.
19:56
Yeah.
19:57
And I think when we can think about like little you or little us, whether that's
20:02
like clients that will bring in a picture of themselves at a younger age, it does
20:06
invite in, you know, more compassion.
20:09
I mean, I have a two year old, right, and, or almost two year old, I guess,
20:12
and just even thinking about her and the environment that she's growing
20:16
up in and how I might talk to her, but it is interesting as we move
20:21
through life, we start to become a lot more judgmental or critical.
20:26
Of our experiences.
20:27
And so I love this work that you're doing of like turning
20:30
back the clock, so to speak, and
20:32
Mm hmm.
20:33
just getting really curious with the people that you work with in
20:36
your clients around like, Hey, how did you get your needs met?
20:39
Is that serving you or not?
20:40
It's such just, I think, helpful language to be able to make changes, right?
20:46
Because we know that shame doesn't help us make changes in our everyday lives.
20:50
Sure.
20:55
feels like it's one of those things that causes that isolation and retreat move
20:59
away from and so I do, I mean, I feel like I talk a lot about shame with my clients.
21:05
Definitely certain personality types lean into shame a little bit more than others.
21:08
But we all can experience it and I feel like it is.
21:12
You know, it is one of those things that puts the brakes on real fast to the work.
21:16
And so how do we stay open and curious?
21:19
And that kindness to self is so key to be able to do this work.
21:24
I would venture to say that I am much older than you.
21:27
Because I have a 22 year old and a 20 year old and twins that are
21:32
15 been married for 25 years.
21:35
And so I think inside the story of my life and then the work
21:39
that I get to do with this tool I can, I can see the layers of it.
21:44
So where you've got a two year old and you're like in the, the beginning
21:48
stages of this with her I've got a 22 year old and, and I didn't do it right.
21:53
I didn't know I didn't have the tools.
21:55
I couldn't self regulate for years.
21:57
Like I, it was like, I just didn't, I didn't have the, I didn't know.
22:02
I didn't know.
22:03
And then once I did know I did better.
22:05
And then Everything began to function much better in our home once I was able to get
22:11
some of the, the tools through therapy, a lot of therapy that then allowed me to,
22:17
to have self compassion, which then taught my kids how to have self compassion, which
22:22
then taught our whole family how to have compassion and empathy towards each other.
22:27
So it's been a journey that.
22:31
That I've been on with this work.
22:34
So like I help people to walk through the work, but I had to do the work to be able
22:38
to hold space for people to walk through the work that I'm doing with them today.
22:44
Absolutely.
22:45
Yeah.
22:46
And I appreciate your vulnerability here.
22:47
And I agree with you.
22:49
We can't do better if we don't know.
22:51
And you know, I think there's so much value in you sharing that, right?
22:57
So if we have a listener today that doesn't know it's okay.
23:00
Or if you've taken an Enneagram test and it gives you the answer, which
23:04
the internet is like, okay, let's take that with a grain of salt.
23:06
But if you maybe resonate more with like being in the unhealth.
23:10
There's so much opportunity, right, and I think that's such a hopeful message.
23:16
We talk a lot about, like, hope on this podcast, and I think that
23:20
that's something that each of us could use a healthy dose of.
23:24
I think the world at large could use more hope.
23:27
Mm hmm.
23:28
Just even between like news cycles and social media and all the things where
23:31
our hope can get lost, that's so hopeful.
23:34
So even if you've taken a test and you maybe are more of like an unhealthy
23:39
three or an unhealthy seven or whatever number you are, we all have the
23:43
ability and the capacity to change and there's so much hope in that.
23:48
Yes.
23:48
So, I'll give you a little back story on how I found the ideogram
23:54
and then maybe it will give you guys some hope in this because I was at
23:59
the park, my twins were two, and I was at the park with my girlfriend.
24:03
I had the twins in a double stroller and she had her little perfect girl
24:07
in her single stroller and her, like her girl was probably reading
24:11
a book, I don't know, eating snacks.
24:13
Mine were like beating each other up.
24:15
My twins were like not good and they were very little skinny babies, my twins were.
24:21
And so they did like some twin talk to themselves.
24:25
They talked twin language and so they said something to themselves
24:28
and then they turned around and like.
24:32
Flipped themselves around in the stroller and slid out of the
24:34
stroller and took off in the park.
24:37
And so my, my girlfriend is like, oh my gosh, and I, you know,
24:41
I'm doing the best I can, okay?
24:43
Like there's
24:44
Yeah, yeah.
24:44
a lot.
24:45
I'm not healthy.
24:48
Okay.
24:48
I would just tell you like I'm not the healthiest version of me.
24:51
I'm just surviving at this point.
24:53
And so we wrangle the kids and get them in their You know, get them in the car seat
24:58
and I drive home, put them down for a nap and I'm like, Oh my gosh, I need a minute.
25:02
And my girlfriend calls me and she's like, Hey, I just sent you a book.
25:04
It's going to be there in a couple of days.
25:06
And I was like, Oh good.
25:06
Some story and get lost in.
25:08
Well, she sent me a book on the Enneagram.
25:11
And so this weird book comes with this weird cover on the front.
25:14
I'm like, what is that?
25:16
And then I start to read and I was like, Oh, I think she's trying to fix me.
25:20
And at that point, I did not feel judged by her.
25:23
I was like, I, I seriously need some help.
25:26
Like, I feel like I'm drowning in this and I can't, I don't know what to do.
25:30
I'm outnumbered, clearly outnumbered.
25:33
And so that was the beginning of the journey.
25:35
When I first tested, I tested as an eight and I was like, well, yeah, I
25:37
can totally see all of the eightness and it didn't, there was, there was
25:42
a lot of like, yeah, yeah, yeah,
25:46
Ping it wasn't like that's it.
25:48
It was close, but not it wasn't it So then I was reading about the seven, you
25:53
know Seven wing that I started to read about the seven and started to cry and
25:56
I was like, oh This is a hundred percent me like this is me and it got down to the
26:00
place and it was in in the unhealthy side of it and it said the frenetic escapism
26:05
and I was like Oh my gosh, that is me.
26:08
That is where I'm at.
26:09
I would like to run away from my life.
26:11
Even when it's good, sometimes I want to run away y'all.
26:13
So it's really like thought I was like, I'm not broken.
26:18
I'm not so messed up.
26:20
I can't be helped, but I'm not okay.
26:22
And so it gave me language to know, like, I'm just not okay.
26:26
I'm not in the healthiest version of myself.
26:28
And from there I could move towards therapy and I could move towards help
26:32
and, and have people guide me into, into understanding where my patterns
26:38
come from, why I do what I do, where I get lost, and then how to, how to
26:42
gain, gain some understanding which then eventually led to my ability to.
26:48
To be able to self regulate today.
26:50
So that's good, but it didn't, it wasn't pretty, you know,
26:53
the journey wasn't pretty.
26:54
And I found the Enneagram in unhealth.
26:59
yeah, yeah.
27:00
Well, thank you for your vulnerability and for sharing a part of your story.
27:03
And I mean, I think, I think that is so important to say because yeah, I
27:08
mean, the work, whether we're doing Enneagram work with you or therapy of
27:12
some kind is oftentimes painful and messy.
27:16
And I do think that's important to note.
27:18
There's so much that we don't see, you know, on social media posts.
27:23
that portray, you know, even in the therapeutic space of like,
27:27
hey, if you have this skill, then this is how it will be for you.
27:30
And the reality is there's so much more nuance and messiness,
27:34
I think, that accompanies it.
27:35
So I'm so glad that you shared that.
27:36
I'm actually a twin.
27:37
So I have a lot of compassion for you and for my own mother.
27:40
I have one brother and then two younger sisters.
27:42
So my parents have four children as well.
27:44
And I mean, it's a lot.
27:45
I have one child.
27:47
I think even, you know, understanding a little bit more about what it's
27:51
like to be a mother has given me some more compassion for my mom.
27:55
You know, the fact that a lot of times parents are doing the best they can
28:00
with the information that they have.
28:01
Now we're not excusing problematic or harmful or even abusive behaviors, but
28:06
mm hmm.
28:07
you know, there is that piece of like raising children is complex and it's hard.
28:11
Yeah, and when we're talking about needs and like, what did you do
28:14
back then, you know, what Jackie and I are talking about today is
28:17
what, what were your needs, right?
28:20
So we all
28:20
mm hmm
28:21
needs and how did you get those needs met?
28:22
And so the Enneagram can help us understand how we got those needs met in
28:26
childhood and then what we're doing in adulthood to get those needs met as well.
28:31
So examples of needs, love, connection, belonging,
28:34
acceptance, all the things, yeah.
28:37
Well, in all of the nine personality types too, they have
28:40
different focuses of attention.
28:42
And so like an Enneagram one they want to be seen as good and right
28:46
in the eyes of other people.
28:47
And so a lot of the motivation behind their behavior is like, I
28:50
want to make sure I'm above board.
28:52
I want to be ethical.
28:52
I want to be a person of integrity.
28:54
You know, and you go into each personality type, the Enneagram
28:57
two wants to be loved and wanted.
28:58
So what do I need to do?
28:59
Well, I need to be of service to people.
29:01
I need to lean in.
29:01
I need to help.
29:02
I need to be, you know, the Enneagram three wants to be accepted
29:06
as they are for who they are.
29:08
However the Enneagram three, seven and eight, they have these longing
29:12
messages, but they have this thought process of like, But I'll do it.
29:17
I'm good.
29:18
Like, I, I won't move towards people to try to get it done.
29:20
I'll figure out how to make that okay for you.
29:22
So there is, there is some nuances, I think, within the system as well.
29:27
Like how do people move to get their needs met, but within, you know, the three,
29:30
so then like, I want it to be accepted and You know, so then it's like, okay,
29:35
but what do people that's that chameleon kind of side of the three, like, what do
29:39
people expect me to do to be accepted?
29:42
And then like, but who, who am I really?
29:44
Like, what is the authentic side?
29:45
And so like I could go through all the numbers right on the, the.
29:50
You know, the motivation behind each is different.
29:53
And so how they get their needs different, what they're looking to meet is different.
29:57
And it does, it, it's like aha moment, especially inside relationships.
30:02
So I'm married in a gram three.
30:04
So his needs are totally different than mine, you know?
30:07
And I'm like, Oh, I want to like go have Fun and like be adventurous and
30:12
be carefree and do all this stuff.
30:14
And he's like, I wanna be seen as successful and I wanna, you
30:17
know, I wanna be, you know, and I'm like, oh, can we do both?
30:21
You know?
30:21
And he's like,
30:22
Yeah, yeah Well even down to like the nitty gritty of like our co host
30:26
lauren and I know that she won't mind me Sharing this with you all today,
30:30
but as an enneagram three, this is a trait that I know about myself
30:34
But i'm a big picture person, right?
30:36
So I tend to omit details and so we'll be talking about like a new policy
30:42
in the company or something And I get to point a To Z pretty quickly,
30:47
and I omit a lot of information.
30:50
However, part of my growth is slowing down and providing more context and
30:55
details because she's an Enneagram nine . And so she values all of
31:01
the rich detail and information.
31:04
And so one of the things that I've realized is like, oh, this is one way
31:08
that I can actually do my job better and a way to like love her well.
31:14
Right?
31:15
And then it's, we kind of have reached this kind of middle ground where
31:19
sometimes she might need to admit more details to like, work more effectively.
31:24
And then sometimes I might need to add more details to meet her in the middle.
31:28
And so that she's not having to read my mind.
31:30
So it is really interesting.
31:32
As we've just even created this podcast and we work closely together,
31:36
just even noting that the differences in our styles of communication
31:41
and we laugh about it, right?
31:43
Sometimes when I do the A to Z, she's like, Laura, I feel
31:45
like I need 50 more details.
31:47
I'm like, okay, this is my three coming up and we'll both chuckle about it and
31:51
then I'll provide her more details.
31:52
But
31:53
Yes.
31:54
I feel like I always need more details with my husband.
31:56
I'll be like, Hey, I need help with this.
31:58
And he's like this and this and this.
31:59
And I'm like, I just, I know my eyes are like, I don't, I don't
32:04
even know what to do with what
32:05
classic three.
32:06
Yes.
32:07
Yes.
32:07
Yes.
32:07
Yes.
32:08
Yeah, or I'm like, can you get me the thing, babe?
32:11
And he's like, Loretta, like, what are you talking about?
32:14
I'm like, oh, a cup of water.
32:15
Okay, great.
32:16
Yeah.
32:16
The thing.
32:17
Yes.
32:18
Yeah.
32:18
It
32:18
So thanks.
32:19
The communication is different.
32:20
The speed is different.
32:22
The movement towards a way independent is different.
32:26
So, I mean, the Enneagram is, is vast.
32:29
There's just so much in it.
32:30
There's so many different layers of understanding self.
32:33
I, I love this tool because of that.
32:36
I do like the approach with kindness always whether we're looking at
32:40
it for ourself or we're even using it to understand other people.
32:44
So you know, it's not a tool that, that we should judge people
32:48
or the stereotypical side of it.
32:50
Like, well, you're just this, you know, it's like,
32:53
Almost like a, yeah, a shame statement or a judgment.
32:57
And I think that happens with a lot of different things, whether
33:00
we're talking in the context of mental health or in society.
33:03
We tend to categorize quickly or like elevate certain
33:07
personalities versus others.
33:09
And the reality is it doesn't have to be like good or bad, right?
33:14
It's more like, can we have kindness around this?
33:17
Can we recognize that none of us have, like, arrived that, you know, we're
33:23
kind of always learning and growing and, yeah, I do like that you mentioned
33:27
that because I do think sometimes it's like, oh, this personality type is
33:30
better than that, and the reality is, like, there's, I think we need all types
33:34
Yes.
33:35
Mm hmm.
33:36
Right.
33:36
Yeah.
33:37
We're just kind of looking at it all.
33:38
Like it's so different.
33:39
My house is, all of us have different personality types
33:43
and I have no compliant, none.
33:46
They're all like, they're all just a lot.
33:49
That's what it is.
33:50
And.
33:51
But it's interesting have it being a mom and then doing the work that I do day
33:56
in and day out with clients, but then also watching my kids and beginning to
34:01
understand those core motivations what's really happening below the surface.
34:05
And so like I have an Enneagram 5 child and so for him he wants to
34:10
know those needs are not a problem.
34:12
So when he comes to me and says something then I need to be sensitive
34:15
to him and responsive to him.
34:17
You know, I've got an Enneagram 5.
34:18
for that.
34:20
She wants to know that it's okay for her to have the full range of emotions
34:24
and it is you know, With, you know, with some boundaries around them, it is,
34:30
For sure.
34:30
okay to have the full range of emotions.
34:33
What I couldn't do when she was younger, it's so interesting, her name is Hope
34:37
and and, and part of the work that I do today is because of my, my Hope, my child.
34:44
But when she was younger, I could not, her emotions, Triggered my
34:49
emotions and then it would be a cycle of emotions and it was big.
34:53
And so but today I, I can see it happen and I can see where she's going.
34:58
And I, I kind of like can step back and watch and kind of see like,
35:03
what does she do inside of this?
35:04
And yeah, just a house full of personality types gives me the ability to see through
35:10
so many different lenses if I choose
35:13
Absolutely.
35:14
have compassion for where they're at instead of.
35:17
Demanding that they respond how I would respond or think how I think.
35:22
And so that's been huge in the parenting side, in marriage side, relational
35:27
side in general, with the Enneagram.
35:29
Mm
35:31
yeah, we as humans tend to see the world like through our own lens, right?
35:35
So I love that you brought this perspective up.
35:37
It's like, oh, well, I would do it this way, right?
35:39
You know, like where are you?
35:41
It can be a little bit more of like a judgment versus the going deeper
35:44
and recognizing that just because we would do it one way doesn't
35:47
mean that our loved ones will.
35:49
Right.
35:50
Right.
35:50
And, and, yeah.
35:52
Sorry.
35:54
No, I just, no, you go.
35:56
just reflecting on all the things we're talking about.
35:58
Yeah.
35:59
Yeah.
36:00
This has been such a fun conversation.
36:02
Thank you, Jackie, for your time.
36:03
I love, you know, the intersection of the compassion and the
36:07
Mm hmm.
36:08
that felt so pertinent for today.
36:09
Yeah.
36:10
So I'm curious, how can our listeners find you?
36:14
So I'm on social media.
36:15
It's Enneagram with JB.
36:16
I have a website, Enneagram with JB.
36:18
com.
36:19
I'm best on Instagram.
36:20
So if you want to DM, ask any questions, I love to answer questions, ask away or
36:25
you can connect with me through there.
36:26
And if you're interested in coaching or anything like that in that world
36:31
you can reach out to me that way and I can get you some information.
36:34
Awesome.
36:35
That's so great.
36:36
Well, you know that if you're listening to the show, we always close with
36:39
an affirmation and some homework.
36:41
So Jackie, you're welcome to provide both of those things or one of the things.
36:45
I'll do the homework side of it.
36:46
I, I often prompt people to get curious.
36:49
And so when there is a reaction, when something happens, big or small reaction,
36:56
it's a get curious around the why what's going on below the surface of that,
37:00
where did that reaction come from?
37:02
What are you actually looking for longing for, you know, what, what,
37:07
what happened in that moment.
37:08
So kind of taking something maybe this week that you react to, and you're
37:13
kind of like, Why did I react like that to get curious about it, journal
37:17
about it, maybe go for a walk, think about it, try to process it to move
37:21
into it a little bit more to figure out what was, what was below the
37:25
surface that really kind of tripped me up or triggered me in that moment.
37:29
I love that.
37:30
And you can use that in so many different environments, whether that's with yourself
37:33
or in the context of relationship.
37:35
Yeah.
37:35
Love it so much.
37:36
Yeah.
37:37
And just an affirmation that feels pertinent to today's episode is
37:40
really just this idea that I'm capable of growing, right, with
37:45
curiosity and kindness towards myself.
37:49
Yes.
37:49
Thank you so much for being here, Jackie.
37:51
And thank you to our listeners for being here today on the
37:54
Becoming Anchored podcast.
37:55
We will see you all next time.
37:56
Take care.