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🎧 Open Tabs: The privacy paradox for content creators · Open Tabs

• 0:00
  okay guys welcome doing open tabs on a tuesday this week
• 0:05
  instead of our regular
• 0:06
  wednesday but we have a lot of fun juicy things to get into
• 0:11
  this week um okay so
• 0:15
  first thing i wanted to talk about with you guys um i included
• 0:19
  it in our monday
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_00: cultural gems but i thought it was like
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_00: It deserved a larger conversation.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_00: So TikTok's most followed creator,
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_00: Kabe Lame,
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  SPEAKER_00: just sold a stake of his brand,
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_00: his like TikTok brand,
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  SPEAKER_00: for $975 million.
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_00: So almost a billion dollars.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_00: And he sold it to a holding company.
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_00: who basically,
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 0:49
  just wants to monetize his brand across the world and sell
• 0:54
  product in the beauty,
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_00: fragrance,
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_00: and apparel space.
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_00: So in this deal, it's interesting.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_00: They obviously,
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_00: like,
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  SPEAKER_00: didn't disclose,
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  SPEAKER_00: like,
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  SPEAKER_00: how much cash he actually got from this,
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  SPEAKER_00: but they did say a lot of it was in stocks.
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_00: So, like, he's not a billionaire.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, we'll see, I guess.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_00: And within this deal,
• 1:17
  he also is giving this holding company permission to develop an
• 1:23
  AI-powered digital
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  SPEAKER_00: twin of his likeness,
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_00: voice,
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  SPEAKER_00: and gestures to produce multilingual content at scale.
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_00: So, and based so far, they just closed this deal last week.
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_00: But Rich Sparkle Holdings,
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_00: which is the company that bought his likeness,
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  SPEAKER_00: is projecting that this deal could generate $4 billion in sales annually.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_00: So, yeah, they'll be able to use his TikTok shop today.
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  SPEAKER_00: his live stream and his AI twin to sell products.
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  SPEAKER_00: So what I think is like really interesting about this is like,
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_00: like,
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  SPEAKER_00: is this the new like move for mega creators?
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  SPEAKER_00: Like as a,
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_00: the business of being a content creator,
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  SPEAKER_00: I think this is like a very interesting move on his part.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, it's interesting.
• 2:28
  He's quite literally selling out in terms of like letting
• 2:32
  people have access to his audience.
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  And I think this makes sense for him specifically because he's
• 2:39
  a creator who has
• 2:41
  always somewhat been a bit of an aggregator where he's always
• 2:44
  kind of brought the
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_03: best of the Internet to his audience.
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_03: And what he kind of adds is that reaction layer.
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  So I think this makes a lot of sense from a business
• 2:52
  perspective in terms of like
• 2:54
  buying access to his likeness i think that's such a huge amount
• 2:58
  of money i don't
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  know if i would value it quite that high personally especially
• 3:03
  for such an
• 3:04
  experimental space but it's very interesting um i'm i also not
• 3:10
  sure creators who
• 3:11
  put more of themselves and their personalities into their work
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  would want to sell
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  SPEAKER_03: out so overtly like
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  SPEAKER_03: Jake Paul, we talked about, sold out in a similar way last year.
• 3:25
  And then everyone started using his likeness to just straight
• 3:29
  up bully him,
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  like put him in situations that he didn't like and were
• 3:32
  ridiculous and make fun of
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  SPEAKER_03: him.
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  And so I think on the one hand,
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  it's like,
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  yeah,
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  this is a great way to make a lot of money.
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  But then there are also brand costs associated with that
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  because then you no longer
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  SPEAKER_03: have control over how your brand is perceived as much as you did before.
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  SPEAKER_00: Totally.
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  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I agree.
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  SPEAKER_00: And I feel like when your brand is built around a person,
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  SPEAKER_00: it's like just that much more complicated,
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  SPEAKER_00: right?
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  SPEAKER_00: As opposed to like
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  building like a brand alongside your you know public personal
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  self um i just like i
• 4:09
  even the story the story is just i feel like it's still like
• 4:12
  just totally not fully
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  clear to me too i'm like will this company will rich sparkle
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  holdings have control
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  over his accounts then like his tiktok or is it like they can
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  use him and like
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  SPEAKER_00: create content with him elsewhere like
• 4:29
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, just a second.
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  SPEAKER_00: They have his likeness.
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  SPEAKER_00: And so they can use him, like, probably not from his account.
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  SPEAKER_00: I'm sure they'll be doing stuff on his account.
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  SPEAKER_00: But, like, from what I understand, like, they can sell his likeness to...
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  SPEAKER_00: a brand, like, a perfume brand who wants to sell something.
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  SPEAKER_00: And, like, does he have sign-off?
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  SPEAKER_00: Like, does he have, like, or did he, like, relinquish?
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  He is,
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  since he did get stock as,
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  like,
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  part of this deal,
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  he is,
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  like,
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  a majority shareholder.
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  SPEAKER_00: So, like, I'm sure he will have, like, some control, but...
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  SPEAKER_00: I wonder, like, how much of that control, like, he'll want to exercise.
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  Because,
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  like Megan was saying,
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  I mean,
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  he's kind of,
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  like,
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  the perfect creator to do this.
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  SPEAKER_00: For those who aren't familiar with Kabe Lame's content, like...
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  SPEAKER_00: He got started on TikTok because he got fired from his job.
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  So he had like a bunch of free time and he started doing like
• 5:33
  reactions to super viral videos.
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  SPEAKER_00: Right.
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  SPEAKER_00: And most of them, he wasn't even saying something.
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  SPEAKER_00: It was like the viral video and then a clip of him making a funny face.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
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  since then and like since he's grown to 160 million followers
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  on tiktok um it's
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  he's expanded that so like now he'll do like skits and it's
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  like more thoughtful
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  and more elaborate it's on it's still like kind of low effort
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  um but he is like
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  SPEAKER_00: kind of a blanks like a blank canvas um so when i'm thinking like
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  SPEAKER_00: The weird things with like Jake Paul's digital twin,
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  SPEAKER_00: like when he sold his likeness to a different,
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  SPEAKER_00: it's like a different kind of creator.
• 6:23
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
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  He's like,
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  we,
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  he makes these funny reaction videos,
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  but like,
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  we don't know who he is.
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  SPEAKER_00: And like, he doesn't talk a lot in his videos.
• 6:33
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah.
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  SPEAKER_00: But he is a recognizable face on the platform.
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  So it'll be interesting to see how they're able to take this
• 6:46
  massive creator who
• 6:47
  doesn't have a super defined personality and get him to
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  convince people to buy
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  SPEAKER_00: beauty,
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  SPEAKER_00: fragrance of all things.
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_03: And I think that's the part where I'm like,
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  I don't know if it was quite – I believe the $4 billion in
• 7:03
  sales because getting
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_03: people to see something is one thing.
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  SPEAKER_03: Getting them to buy something is another.
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  SPEAKER_03: Of 100%.
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  SPEAKER_03: I don't see this as like a lifestyle influencer.
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  And even like I feel like if a lifestyle influencer were to
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  enter a similar deal to
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  SPEAKER_03: this,
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  SPEAKER_03: it would immediately –
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  SPEAKER_03: like undermine all of the reputability in terms of being able to give
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  SPEAKER_03: recommendations because you would immediately be like,
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  SPEAKER_03: well,
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  how do I know you're not just paid to tell me this because
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  you're working with this
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  SPEAKER_03: brand?
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  SPEAKER_03: How do I know this isn't AI?
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  So I think there's interesting things here in terms of the
• 7:39
  technology when it comes
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  SPEAKER_03: to content creation at scale,
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  SPEAKER_03: but I'm not as convinced that it could be a tool to sell.
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  SPEAKER_00: I think that would be interesting to like,
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  look into and better understand too like just the art of the
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  sell when it comes to
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  creators broadly like I'm just curious like what what like
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  genre of creator is most
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  successful at selling how do they sell and like what do they do
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  I I actually
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  suspect like I feel like our brains just go straight to like
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  lifestyle content
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  because that's just like it's just so inherent cause and effect
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  for like that type
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  SPEAKER_00: of content but like
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  SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
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  SPEAKER_00: I feel like it's like the creators that do like digital products somehow,
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  SPEAKER_00: you know,
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  SPEAKER_00: like courses or something that that maybe would surprise us.
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  SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
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  SPEAKER_00: I'm like now I'm interested in finding this out.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's interesting.
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  SPEAKER_00: And a little more on the deal.
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  SPEAKER_00: It's only for 36 months.
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  SPEAKER_00: So he didn't sell it forever.
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  SPEAKER_00: But they will have... And he is a controlling stakeholder.
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  SPEAKER_00: But they will have...
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  SPEAKER_00: full reign to monetize his digital presence.
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  So like they will be doing his live streaming of short form
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  video strategy and like
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  really turn him into like a full scale commercial platform for
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  the next 36 months.
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  SPEAKER_00: It's interesting, like...
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  SPEAKER_00: I was scrolling through his recent posts.
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  SPEAKER_00: He also, this is another thing that's interesting.
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  SPEAKER_00: He doesn't post like a ton.
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  When you look at other TikTokers who are like posting like two
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  to three videos a
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  SPEAKER_00: day,
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  SPEAKER_00: he'll do like two to three videos a week.
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  SPEAKER_00: Which is interesting.
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  SPEAKER_00: I bet that will increase.
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  SPEAKER_00: But I was curious to see what the sentiment would be in his comments.
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  SPEAKER_00: And people were like, is this real?
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  SPEAKER_00: Is this your AI twin?
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  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_00: Not good.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_00: I think people are so sensitive to AI and...
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  SPEAKER_00: I also like one of the questions I have is like,
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  will they be labeling the content of like something in the
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  corner that's like,
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  SPEAKER_00: this is an AI twin or will it be presented like it's actually him?
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  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, I just thought this is like really exciting and
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  SPEAKER_00: And,
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  SPEAKER_00: I mean,
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  SPEAKER_00: it's only been a week,
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  SPEAKER_00: but it'll be really interesting to see,
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  SPEAKER_00: like,
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  SPEAKER_00: if other creators start wading into this and,
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  SPEAKER_00: like,
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  SPEAKER_00: selling their likenesses.
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  SPEAKER_00: I feel like that's a really, really hard decision to make.
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  SPEAKER_00: Like, I don't know.
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  SPEAKER_00: Do you guys have thoughts?
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  SPEAKER_00: Like, do you think it, like, erodes?
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  SPEAKER_00: It's, like, too big of a risk of, like, it eroding audience trust.
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_03: I think so, personally.
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  SPEAKER_03: I think it's just too big of a step in that direction.
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  And I was also thinking,
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  who else would I want or would I suggest that they go down this
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  route?
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  SPEAKER_03: And I was like,
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  SPEAKER_03: maybe like Jenna Marbles,
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  SPEAKER_03: because it's like she clearly does not want to be making content anymore.
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  SPEAKER_03: But there's so much love and there's appetite for content made by her.
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  So she might be someone who this might be kind of an in-between
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  where she wouldn't
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  SPEAKER_03: have to be so public facing that there could be Jenna Marbles,
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  SPEAKER_03: new Jenna Marbles content out there.
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  But then I'm like,
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  I just don't know if it would hit the same because so much of
• 11:30
  that is...
• 11:31
  people love jedda marbles and they want updates on her would
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  they kind of want the
• 11:36
  ai version the cartoonified version of her i'm not sure you
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  know what i was gonna
• 11:41
  say interesting i think um well one i want to see how this
• 11:47
  plays out so emma like
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  SPEAKER_00: megan if you guys see any of this like this ai content surface let's
• 11:55
  SPEAKER_00: let's watch and see like how they, how it's like utilized.
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  SPEAKER_00: But I actually think,
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  SPEAKER_00: you know,
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  SPEAKER_00: where my brain jumped was to,
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_00: um,
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_00: more of like the anonymous creators that we've talked about.
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  SPEAKER_00: Um,
• 12:09
  SPEAKER_00: which is like,
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_00: obviously like this interesting ongoing conversation topic that we have,
• 12:15
  SPEAKER_00: like we have a couple empty Deco pieces about anonymous creators and like
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  SPEAKER_00: I think of like things I bought and liked,
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_00: like we don't know who she is,
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_00: what her likeness is,
• 12:25
  but she like all of her content pretty much like is just things
• 12:30
  she bought and
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_00: liked and is recommending.
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  SPEAKER_00: So I feel like it could be interesting to like use,
• 12:35
  SPEAKER_00: like,
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  I feel like I could see her in this scenario and it would still
• 12:38
  have to be like,
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_00: I think going back to your point,
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_00: Megan,
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  SPEAKER_00: like the things that
• 12:44
  that are chosen still have to have had her stamp of approval,
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  like a real stamp of approval.
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_00: But she has like her whole account,
• 12:51
  SPEAKER_00: like her Instagram,
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know how many times she's posted.
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  Like there's so much there that she could just,
• 12:56
  you could just start using.
• 12:57
  SPEAKER_00: You know what I mean?
• 12:57
  SPEAKER_00: If she had like an AI kind of version of who she is.
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_00: Like that, that seems interesting.
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_00: And,
• 13:05
  and what is also further interesting about her specifically is
• 13:10
  that like her
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  SPEAKER_00: account is set up for like,
• 13:14
  things i bought and liked right and it like literally points to
• 13:17
  purchase yeah so i
• 13:20
  don't know if i was a holding company and i was like looking to
• 13:23
  invest in somebody
• 13:24
  i feel like that would be like interesting um that's a really
• 13:30
  good one she is kind
• 13:31
  of like the perfect if you had to if i had to pick like a
• 13:35
  perfect creator for this
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_00: it would be her you still have to have that like
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_00: I feel like for a person,
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_00: though—and again,
• 13:43
  SPEAKER_00: she's still,
• 13:43
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_00: an anonymous creator,
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_00: but we know—like,
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_00: our understanding is that it's an individual person doing it.
• 13:49
  SPEAKER_00: You still have to have that, like, curated touchpoint, though.
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that that's what's interesting about Kabe Lame.
• 13:57
  SPEAKER_00: Like, he's literally relinquishing that, it seems like, through this.
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  SPEAKER_00: Unless it's,
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_00: part of his agreement is that he is,
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_00: part of the decision-making and whatnot.
• 14:05
  SPEAKER_00: But I think that that's more of, like, what we're wondering.
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_00: It's, like—
• 14:09
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know, like, how are they going to use it?
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_00: What are they going to do?
• 14:13
  So I also think it's like the creative partners that he's
• 14:16
  working with as well.
• 14:17
  Like,
• 14:18
  you can imagine like a really cool execution or also just like
• 14:22
  falling super flat.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_03: Totally.
• 14:25
  yeah it'll be interesting and i'm i'm interested to see like he
• 14:31
  is he does have a
• 14:33
  say um they say in the article um but like how it'll be
• 14:38
  interesting to see like how
• 14:40
  careful he is about his brand or if like he's just like
• 14:43
  whatever i got a night like
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_00: i got my money i don't like
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_00: Do whatever.
• 14:49
  SPEAKER_00: I don't really care.
• 14:49
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_00: So kind of on a similar coin,
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_00: talking about creators,
• 14:59
  SPEAKER_00: this like was an impromptu topic that came up in our like prep call.
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_00: But we were talking a lot about,
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 15:06
  the balancing of private and public life specifically as a
• 15:12
  lifestyle creator.
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_00: And what kicked this conversation off was who or what?
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_00: Danielle Bernstein, if you're not familiar with her.
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_00: If you're on Instagram and,
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_00: have been for a while and care about fashion,
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_00: you probably know who she is.
• 15:30
  But if not,
• 15:31
  she's kind of,
• 15:32
  I would say she's like an OG fashion Instagram content creator.
• 15:39
  She's been on the platform for however long I've been on
• 15:43
  Instagram,
• 15:43
  like when it first launched.
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_00: And she had a very public engagement and she was like very heavily like
• 15:54
  promote it she threw like a huge engagement party that people
• 15:58
  thought was actually
• 15:59
  a wedding and she was like very out there and outspoken about
• 16:03
  her relationship and
• 16:06
  being engaged and wedding planning and over the weekend or i
• 16:10
  think maybe friday
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_00: night she posted an instagram story which is interesting not to her
• 16:18
  She posted a story announcing,
• 16:21
  as Melissa said,
• 16:22
  a conscious uncoupling from her fiancé.
• 16:27
  SPEAKER_00: And in that statement,
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_00: she pushed people to her Substack to,
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_00: see her real thoughts.
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_00: It was actually the substack.
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_00: Just to correct Emma,
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_00: it was that the announcement happened,
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_00: and then a couple days later,
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_00: I think it went to the substack.
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 16:42
  So she pushed people to her Substack for more details and
• 16:47
  like...
• 16:48
  more of her personal thoughts on it um and she didn't really
• 16:53
  get very personal in
• 16:55
  the Substack the gist of her Substack was i've been like i know
• 17:00
  i've been like very
• 17:01
  out there with my relationship um but i that hasn't worked for
• 17:06
  me in the past and
• 17:07
  going forward i'm going to be much more private about my
• 17:11
  relationships and personal
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_00: life um
• 17:15
  And the reception to that on her Substack post seems to be very
• 17:20
  positive.
• 17:23
  SPEAKER_00: But it is interesting.
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_00: Like,
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_00: she's not the first creator we've seen who's very out there and,
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_00: real with their audience about their real life and then making a pivot.
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_01: So I want to be like,
• 17:42
  what do we think like about the balancing act that these
• 17:46
  creators have to do?
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_03: I think it's interesting too,
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_03: because on Substack,
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_03: I feel like the vibe has very much been Tumblr core,
• 17:56
  like share personal stories and like more of like the emotional
• 18:01
  sensitive stuff.
• 18:03
  So it's even interesting to me that she would like announce
• 18:06
  this on Instagram,
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_03: which is like,
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_03: I feel like you mentioned her main platform and
• 18:09
  and then say like for a deep dive go over to Substack and that's
• 18:14
  where it's
• 18:14
  happening um i saw this on tiktok because that's where people
• 18:17
  were you know talking
• 18:18
  about it amongst each other um but i think your question about
• 18:25
  you know navigating
• 18:26
  private public is something i've noticed a lot in terms of like
• 18:30
  creators saying
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_03: that they're going to be more private but then also like
• 18:35
  being very public with things because ultimately that is why
• 18:38
  people are following
• 18:39
  them so it's like this weird tension between wanting more
• 18:43
  privacy but also needing
• 18:46
  attention and eyeballs um and i think so much of it is like the
• 18:52
  historic uh kind of
• 18:55
  this is what's been happening and this is what people have been
• 18:57
  sharing like we
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_03: talked about aspen ovard and we know her as like
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_03: for her relationship with her husband, Parker.
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_03: And like, we followed them every step of the way.
• 19:06
  And then they got divorced and she was like,
• 19:08
  I'm not going to share any of this.
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_03: And she got a lot of pushback for that.
• 19:12
  And Reddit was like a blaze because they felt like they had a
• 19:15
  right to know every
• 19:16
  single detail because they had known every single detail up
• 19:18
  until this point.
• 19:20
  And so I think there's this kind of interesting thing happening
• 19:23
  with lifestyle
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_03: creators,
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_03: especially women,
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_03: especially when it comes to heterosexual relationships.
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_03: And we saw the article is having a boyfriend embarrassing.
• 19:32
  Of like bringing in your relationship can be a boon for
• 19:36
  eyeballs and interest,
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_03: especially around weddings.
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_03: But if it doesn't all go perfectly,
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_03: then it's also something that you have to kind of like a test for.
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_03: And it's kind of like a hit to your brand and accountability there.
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_03: Because I also think...
• 19:51
  SPEAKER_03: There's this kind of look back period that happens of like,
• 19:55
  SPEAKER_03: there was another influencer couple that broke up recently,
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_03: Bryn and Mario.
• 19:58
  I don't know if you saw this on TikTok,
• 20:00
  Emma,
• 20:01
  because they were talking about that.
• 20:02
  And then people were going back and like,
• 20:04
  she posted this five days before they broke up.
• 20:06
  SPEAKER_03: What happened?
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 20:08
  And so that kind of hurts your credibility because it's like
• 20:11
  you need to always be
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_03: presenting the relationship in the best light if this is your partner.
• 20:15
  But then once you break up,
• 20:16
  it's like,
• 20:17
  well,
• 20:17
  we've been having problems for a while.
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_03: We just didn't show you guys.
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_03: So it's a tricky situation that a lot of these,
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_03: especially female lifestyle influences,
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_03: I feel like,
• 20:24
  find themselves in right now where like the audience wants to
• 20:28
  see these things.
• 20:29
  But at the end of the day,
• 20:30
  if they don't go perfectly,
• 20:31
  it might be a hit to their brand overall.
• 20:35
  SPEAKER_00: No, totally.
• 20:36
  I mean,
• 20:37
  I feel like it's like the same conundrum manifests with like
• 20:43
  reality TV stars too.
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_00: Like I feel like a lot of like Bravo celebrities...
• 20:48
  deal with this um and it's like treading the line of like what
• 20:54
  role do you allow
• 20:55
  vulnerability to play like in your life in your content and
• 20:59
  like how much of a
• 21:02
  thick skin do you have to like weather it um I mean even like
• 21:08
  Meghan Markle and
• 21:09
  SPEAKER_00: Harry it's like the same kind of thing it's like everything
• 21:14
  time they say they want more privacy then they're like
• 21:17
  revealing something more
• 21:17
  private because that's what people are interested in um so i
• 21:23
  don't know i mean i
• 21:23
  think it's complicated and i think if you were to talk to other
• 21:28
  lifestyle creators
• 21:29
  like i think tanks you know i know we sort of touched on her in
• 21:32
  our like prep call
• 21:33
  but like i think she has gone through sort of like a bunch of
• 21:39
  varied thoughts on
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_00: this um
• 21:44
  over time and I don't know like I don't think that there's like
• 21:47
  one unfortunately
• 21:48
  like straight answer I think it's like it's it's like trying to
• 21:55
  figure out how how
• 21:58
  to like get your you know how to bring like that part to your
• 22:03
  audience in a certain
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_00: part of vulnerability but then also like make sure you like
• 22:09
  protect yourself from any sort of fallout um and also brand
• 22:14
  fallout too like i
• 22:15
  don't i don't know it's interesting like i wonder if there's
• 22:19
  anything that has to
• 22:20
  be undone for like the planned wedding for danielle you know
• 22:23
  what i mean like i'm
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_00: sure that there were brand partnerships with that um
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_00: I have, like, a lot of varied thoughts on it.
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_00: I will just say,
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_00: personally,
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_00: can't imagine having lived,
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_00: my,
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_00: my,
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_00: whole dating and then marriage,
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_00: publicly.
• 22:46
  Like,
• 22:46
  I don't—that just feels,
• 22:48
  like,
• 22:49
  exhausting and,
• 22:49
  like,
• 22:50
  incredibly draining.
• 22:51
  I don't know.
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_03: There was also another TikTok influencer couple recently,
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_03: Christy and Desmond,
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_03: where they broke up and the internet was very like,
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_03: in the weeds on litigating who was in the right,
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_03: who was in the wrong.
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_03: But he had a brand deal that he had to post.
• 23:08
  And all of the comments on the brand deal were just about how
• 23:11
  could you cheat on Christie?
• 23:13
  SPEAKER_03: Like nothing about the brand.
• 23:15
  And I was and like a few people who were creators were posting
• 23:18
  about this on Close
• 23:19
  SPEAKER_03: Friends saying like,
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_03: as a creator,
• 23:21
  I'm like stressed for him because this is going to hurt his
• 23:24
  relationship with this
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_03: brand because
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_03: They don't need to be in the weeds on his relationship drama.
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_03: And they had a campaign planned.
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_03: And now they're getting this engagement on this post,
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_03: but it's not the type of engagement they expected.
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_03: And it has nothing to do with the brand.
• 23:40
  SPEAKER_03: And his personal drama has completely overshadowed this product.
• 23:45
  And so it's a very real liability that you take on because
• 23:49
  having relationship
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_03: content,
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_03: the internet loves it.
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_03: It does so much better.
• 23:54
  But then,
• 23:55
  like I said,
• 23:56
  when things don't go perfectly,
• 23:57
  the Internet then demands answers.
• 24:00
  SPEAKER_03: And if you don't give it like you will pay the price.
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I've even seen it go the other way where it's like.
• 24:08
  A creator will do something with a brand and the brand is like
• 24:10
  not in the best light.
• 24:12
  Like then,
• 24:13
  you know,
• 24:14
  the mob mentality goes after the creator's accounts,
• 24:18
  too.
• 24:19
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it's.
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know.
• 24:22
  And this goes back to the copy where it's like this we're
• 24:26
  getting further and
• 24:27
  further removed from like even this happened in Hollywood
• 24:29
  recently with like a
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_03: desert Zion was attached to a script.
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_03: And then people were like, well, did you read like the source material?
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_03: There's this issue with it.
• 24:38
  SPEAKER_03: And then she was like, I didn't know, guys.
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_03: Thanks for telling me I'm not doing this anymore.
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_03: And so just this like idea that.
• 24:45
  you you're so like beholden to public opinion but also we're
• 24:49
  moving towards a
• 24:50
  future where media can be made like without you like she could
• 24:53
  be starring in a
• 24:53
  movie in a few years without even being there so the movie
• 24:56
  could have gone made and
• 24:57
  then she would be like well i didn't know sorry but it's like
• 25:01
  but that's your face
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_03: and your body acting in that movie as far as we're concerned the audience
• 25:05
  SPEAKER_03: So I think that as much as it seems like it's not related,
• 25:09
  I think this is all very important to consider as we go into
• 25:13
  this AI future of how
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_03: much of yourself do you want to share?
• 25:16
  SPEAKER_03: Because that's what you ultimately will have to sell one day to somebody.
• 25:21
  SPEAKER_03: And I mean, that is like the title of this.
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_00: How much of yourself are you willing to sell?
• 25:27
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_03: No, literally, though.
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_03: And another TikTok thing to bring up is,
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_03: I don't remember his last,
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_03: I want to say his name is Charles Gross.
• 25:38
  SPEAKER_03: He's an Hermes luxury influencer, and he disappeared.
• 25:42
  SPEAKER_03: He's the one who goes, let's talk about it, you know?
• 25:45
  wow and he came back with the video and he was talking about
• 25:49
  why he left and he
• 25:50
  basically was like i as being a creator saw there's so much
• 25:54
  desperation in this
• 25:56
  industry and in the people who create in this space and like
• 25:59
  for my mental health i
• 26:00
  just like didn't want to get caught up in the numbers and the
• 26:02
  metrics and i've had
• 26:03
  similar feelings about all this like i don't do paid stuff and
• 26:07
  like don't pursue
• 26:08
  SPEAKER_03: that because i'm like i would get caught up in all of that
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_03: But it is just a reality of the internet right now.
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_03: And I thought his perspective was really interesting.
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_03: And I think he's in the luxury space,
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_03: which makes me think he doesn't need to rely on this for money.
• 26:22
  So he was able to perform some of these opinions that are a
• 26:27
  little bit more like,
• 26:28
  how am I approaching this as art versus how am I approaching
• 26:30
  this as a living?
• 26:31
  SPEAKER_03: And he basically was like, I wasn't willing to sell any part of myself.
• 26:35
  SPEAKER_03: So I took a step back and took a break.
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_03: And I'm interested to see,
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_03: like,
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_03: how does he navigate this next era of creation now that he's,
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_03: like,
• 26:43
  SPEAKER_03: vehemently decided,
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_03: like,
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_03: I don't want to just,
• 26:45
  SPEAKER_03: like,
• 26:45
  SPEAKER_03: follow the influencer path as laid out for me.
• 26:47
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, my God, Megan, you know what you just reminded me of, actually?
• 26:51
  SPEAKER_00: I saw...
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know if it was an article or maybe it was like a TikTok.
• 26:57
  SPEAKER_00: And it was actually analyzing Becca Bloom.
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_00: And it was sort of like the deceit of Becca Bloom.
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_00: And I will say, like, I really like her content.
• 27:07
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's interesting.
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_00: And of all of her content,
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_00: the stuff that always seems most interesting to me,
• 27:13
  SPEAKER_00: besides like these like high-level plates of food for her dog,
• 27:18
  SPEAKER_00: but are her advice videos.
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_00: Like she does these like in-depth advice videos.
• 27:25
  and the creator or like the writer was speculating that the
• 27:30
  luxury element of her
• 27:32
  content was actually purely meant to like like bait people into
• 27:37
  it and that at the
• 27:38
  end of the day what she was really trying to do is like be an
• 27:41
  advice creator and I
• 27:44
  was like oh that's so interesting I and I mean again just take
• 27:46
  it for what it is
• 27:47
  SPEAKER_00: but like I do think that this like idea of luxury and like
• 27:52
  SPEAKER_00: I think that that's,
• 27:52
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 27:52
  SPEAKER_00: a very specific tactic that,
• 27:55
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 27:56
  SPEAKER_00: certain people choose to do,
• 27:57
  SPEAKER_00: certain creators choose to do.
• 27:59
  SPEAKER_03: Well, yeah, it's also just, like, the flashy thing.
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_03: Like,
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know if you saw Tyra,
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_03: who,
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_03: like,
• 28:05
  SPEAKER_03: our problematic fave,
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_03: Tyra,
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_03: there's a documentary coming out about Top Model.
• 28:10
  SPEAKER_03: And in the clip,
• 28:11
  SPEAKER_03: she basically is,
• 28:12
  SPEAKER_03: like,
• 28:12
  SPEAKER_03: kind of saying,
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_03: well,
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_03: it's you guys' fault as the audience because you guys wanted this.
• 28:17
  SPEAKER_03: And you were saying, we want more, we want more.
• 28:19
  SPEAKER_02: So, basically, there's a lot of...
• 28:21
  for those who don't know there's a lot of like hindsight
• 28:23
  pushback on america's next
• 28:24
  top model as being like psychologically and emotionally abusive
• 28:27
  but i'm like this
• 28:28
  is reality tv she was just early like this is not anything that
• 28:33
  they're not doing
• 28:34
  today they're just better about hiding how sinister and cruel
• 28:36
  it is but it's like
• 28:37
  all the same stuff is happening but in the clip tyra's like
• 28:41
  well you guys just kept
• 28:42
  wanting us to go further and everyone's like i was eight like i
• 28:45
  wasn't asking for
• 28:46
  SPEAKER_03: this
• 28:47
  SPEAKER_03: Like, and like, even if I was, you should have told me no.
• 28:53
  SPEAKER_03: My thing that I'm thinking about with all of this is to me,
• 28:55
  SPEAKER_03: the modern day Tyra is Mr.
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_03: Beast,
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_03: where he's got this haptic audience of young people who,
• 29:01
  SPEAKER_03: yeah,
• 29:01
  SPEAKER_03: they're saying more,
• 29:02
  SPEAKER_03: more,
• 29:02
  SPEAKER_00: more,
• 29:03
  SPEAKER_03: but it's like,
• 29:04
  SPEAKER_03: yeah,
• 29:04
  SPEAKER_03: they're 12.
• 29:06
  Should they be able to like direct this really rich person in
• 29:10
  their creative decision making?
• 29:12
  So I'm really interested to see the America's Next Top Model
• 29:15
  documentary and like,
• 29:16
  i mean tyra is producing it so i don't think it's going to be a
• 29:19
  full-on like tyra
• 29:20
  you need to take accountability for this but i think it might
• 29:23
  be an interesting
• 29:24
  interrogation of the way that culture always demands us to go
• 29:27
  to extremes to or not
• 29:29
  even demands but rewards us for going to extremes and whether
• 29:34
  or not we are willing
• 29:35
  to like just say yeah let's go there or if you're gonna take
• 29:39
  like a charles path
• 29:41
  and be like i need to take a step back before i decide to go go
• 29:44
  all the way
• 29:45
  This reminds me,
• 29:48
  Megan,
• 29:48
  since this was YouTube,
• 29:49
  you will probably know what I'm talking about.
• 29:52
  The YouTuber Elle Mills,
• 29:55
  who used to do,
• 29:56
  like,
• 29:57
  very highly personal vlogs on YouTube.
• 30:01
  SPEAKER_00: This is, like, seven, eight years ago.
• 30:04
  SPEAKER_00: And she blew up.
• 30:06
  SPEAKER_00: She had millions of followers.
• 30:08
  SPEAKER_00: Her videos would get, like, at least a million views each.
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_00: And they're hyper personal.
• 30:12
  SPEAKER_00: Like, her family...
• 30:14
  SPEAKER_00: We're all like characters in her videos.
• 30:16
  SPEAKER_00: She came out on YouTube.
• 30:18
  She documented like her first kiss,
• 30:20
  going on dates,
• 30:21
  like highly,
• 30:23
  highly personal things.
• 30:26
  And she was rewarded by it with followers and brand deals and
• 30:29
  the algorithm.
• 30:30
  SPEAKER_00: And then she posted a video titled Burned Out at 19,
• 30:36
  SPEAKER_00: where she basically said she couldn't keep up with it,
• 30:38
  SPEAKER_00: like the demand of like a weekly video.
• 30:42
  SPEAKER_00: And she would do like...
• 30:44
  SPEAKER_00: 10 minute long YouTube videos, some longer.
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_00: And she basically said,
• 30:49
  SPEAKER_00: I'm 19 years old and I'm completely burned out,
• 30:51
  SPEAKER_00: like creatively and emotionally.
• 30:54
  SPEAKER_00: And I think she took like maybe six months, three to like six months off.
• 31:00
  SPEAKER_00: And then she tried to like come back.
• 31:02
  SPEAKER_00: And I think she maybe like did like two videos a month.
• 31:06
  SPEAKER_00: Like she cut back a little bit.
• 31:08
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that lasted for like a year.
• 31:10
  SPEAKER_00: And then she like completely stopped posting.
• 31:14
  now she like directs short form videos short form movies so she
• 31:18
  posts those to her
• 31:20
  youtube channel but like she tried for a year and then couldn't
• 31:25
  sustain it anymore
• 31:27
  yeah i don't know that like creator life is like so glamorized
• 31:33
  and i don't know why
• 31:35
  SPEAKER_00: it's so hard
• 31:37
  SPEAKER_03: Well, because it's because the hook is luxury.
• 31:39
  SPEAKER_03: The hook is luxury.
• 31:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 31:43
  SPEAKER_03: That's a big part of it, you know.
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_03: So it seems like it's all great and dandy.
• 31:48
  Even I remember like there's always like lifestyle girls always
• 31:52
  do the big haul as
• 31:53
  SPEAKER_03: like a shoe in to get.
• 31:55
  a bunch of eyeballs like michaela uh noriega she did that as
• 31:59
  well like it's just
• 32:01
  it's what garners people's eyeballs so it's what they're going
• 32:04
  to continue to do
• 32:05
  and i think that's kind of the interesting thing to think about
• 32:08
  especially with
• 32:08
  these algorithms like changing on a dime it's like you can't
• 32:12
  focus solely on
• 32:13
  chasing what the algorithm is rewarding today because that
• 32:16
  could all change in the
• 32:17
  SPEAKER_03: next month and then you have no strategy
• 32:20
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
• 32:20
  SPEAKER_00: I even think like with hauls,
• 32:22
  I feel like people used to be like really into the hauls like a
• 32:26
  year and a half
• 32:27
  SPEAKER_00: ago,
• 32:27
  SPEAKER_00: two years ago.
• 32:28
  SPEAKER_00: And now when I see them, it's people in the comments style of
• 32:36
  Overconsumption,
• 32:38
  like,
• 32:38
  this feels very much in our current economic environment.
• 32:42
  SPEAKER_00: Like, to your point, audience sentiment shifts so fast.
• 32:48
  SPEAKER_00: And, yeah, like, what worked yesterday won't necessarily work.
• 32:53
  SPEAKER_00: I also feel like that, like, chase of luxury just gets, like...
• 32:58
  SPEAKER_00: It's, like, more and more complicated and nuanced.
• 33:01
  SPEAKER_00: And, like, I don't know.
• 33:03
  SPEAKER_00: I feel like it has to cap out at some point.
• 33:04
  SPEAKER_00: Again, like, back to, like, Becca Bloom.
• 33:07
  Like,
• 33:07
  her haul will be,
• 33:08
  like,
• 33:10
  exclusive,
• 33:11
  one-of-a-kind Van Cleef bracelet.
• 33:16
  SPEAKER_00: And you're like, okay.
• 33:17
  SPEAKER_00: I obviously want to see that.
• 33:20
  SPEAKER_00: But, like, you know, how many, like, how much of that can you do?
• 33:23
  SPEAKER_00: You know what I mean?
• 33:24
  SPEAKER_00: Or, like, um...
• 33:28
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, interesting, Ernest.
• 33:30
  SPEAKER_00: Audience taste shifts are often misread as algorithmic shifts.
• 33:35
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I also think, again,
• 33:38
  SPEAKER_00: With the halls,
• 33:38
  SPEAKER_00: too,
• 33:38
  like I feel like there's also like that sensationalism of like
• 33:42
  something new,
• 33:43
  SPEAKER_00: something different,
• 33:44
  SPEAKER_00: something like you haven't seen before elements of that,
• 33:47
  SPEAKER_00: too.
• 33:49
  SPEAKER_00: Or like I have the access that you don't have.
• 33:51
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I even see it in my favorite, my food influencer space, too.
• 33:55
  SPEAKER_00: And they're like, look at this hall that I got while on a jet.
• 33:59
  SPEAKER_03: Well, that's what I was going to say.
• 34:01
  SPEAKER_03: I think that, like, some types of content are evergreens.
• 34:04
  SPEAKER_03: Like, people love a haul.
• 34:04
  SPEAKER_03: Even,
• 34:05
  SPEAKER_03: like,
• 34:05
  SPEAKER_03: think,
• 34:05
  SPEAKER_03: like,
• 34:05
  SPEAKER_03: before the internet,
• 34:06
  SPEAKER_03: you would,
• 34:07
  SPEAKER_03: like,
• 34:07
  go shopping with your mom and then come home and show your dad
• 34:10
  everything.
• 34:10
  SPEAKER_03: Like, that is a haul video, you know?
• 34:12
  SPEAKER_02: So it's, like, I think, like...
• 34:15
  it's like earnest is right like they're the audience what they
• 34:19
  want to see shifts
• 34:19
  and I think there was a while we wanted to see like wow you
• 34:22
  just spent a large
• 34:23
  amount of money on these things and like that was exciting and
• 34:26
  now that's read as
• 34:27
  consumerist and bad but people still do want to see hauls of
• 34:31
  things they just want
• 34:33
  to see them in ways that make them feel okay about themselves
• 34:35
  and their own
• 34:36
  SPEAKER_03: consumerism and like
• 34:37
  luxury for the sake of luxury i feel like is not the way there
• 34:41
  yeah like even what
• 34:41
  you were describing uh uh anymore i should say not yet what
• 34:45
  you're describing with
• 34:46
  becca was like taste it was like i want to see the one of the
• 34:50
  kind things becca has
• 34:51
  picked out less so like i want to see how much money becca has
• 34:54
  spent so i think
• 34:56
  like that's true up with what those like the nuances of those
• 34:59
  shifts and like what
• 35:00
  the what you're actually providing for the audience at the time
• 35:04
  is like super
• 35:05
  SPEAKER_03: important and
• 35:07
  I feel like that's what like Becca knows that and I think that
• 35:10
  a person who said
• 35:10
  she wants to give advice is so right I think that's that's her
• 35:13
  goal but she isn't
• 35:14
  that like I know I I it kind of like blew my mind I need
• 35:17
  diamonds and baubles so
• 35:19
  like I'm gonna do that but at the same time I'm gonna get but
• 35:22
  it does work like
• 35:23
  even Alex Earl that's her whole thing like she's used her
• 35:26
  luxury lifestyle to make
• 35:28
  SPEAKER_03: us all care about her deeply like I
• 35:30
  SPEAKER_03: I don't follow Alex Orlat closely,
• 35:32
  SPEAKER_03: and I'm so happy for her that she got second in Dancing with the Stars.
• 35:36
  SPEAKER_03: I knew about her breakup with Braxton just by virtue of being online and
• 35:41
  SPEAKER_03: consistently showing up in that space and using,
• 35:45
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 35:45
  I'm going to get ready and you're going to watch me make myself
• 35:48
  look beautiful.
• 35:48
  SPEAKER_03: But while I'm doing that,
• 35:50
  SPEAKER_03: I'm going to tell you about myself,
• 35:51
  SPEAKER_03: what's going on,
• 35:52
  SPEAKER_03: my family problems.
• 35:53
  SPEAKER_03: And that then over time endears you to Alex.
• 35:57
  SPEAKER_03: And so, Emma, you brought up sustainability.
• 35:59
  And I think that's like what's important to consider in all of
• 36:02
  these lifestyle
• 36:03
  SPEAKER_03: strategies is like,
• 36:04
  SPEAKER_03: how is this sustainable for me as like a person long term?
• 36:08
  SPEAKER_03: And I think scalability through AI is one way like that.
• 36:13
  SPEAKER_03: You could think about doing that,
• 36:15
  SPEAKER_03: but it's not necessarily going to work for the lifestyle creation space,
• 36:19
  SPEAKER_03: I don't think.
• 36:20
  SPEAKER_00: You know what I was just going to say?
• 36:22
  Actually,
• 36:22
  Megan,
• 36:23
  hearing you talk,
• 36:26
  you know,
• 36:26
  it actually brought to mind another creator.
• 36:28
  SPEAKER_00: Do you guys follow Pookie and Jet?
• 36:31
  SPEAKER_00: It's like Campbell Huckett.
• 36:34
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know how to say their last name.
• 36:35
  SPEAKER_00: It's like Huckett.
• 36:36
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 36:39
  SPEAKER_00: I actually think that they're a very interesting case study.
• 36:41
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 36:43
  similarly though like i think we're tracking this like it's
• 36:46
  like the luxury is like
• 36:47
  one element of like the bait that brings it in um i mean i
• 36:52
  think she's like
• 36:54
  interesting she obviously like sells pajamas you know like
• 36:57
  that's part of her like
• 36:58
  why does everybody sell pajamas now i know speaking of i
• 37:01
  literally was on another
• 37:02
  call and i was like oh we wore what's valentine's day pajamas
• 37:06
  are now on sale like
• 37:07
  i'm like you know danielle like honestly like going through
• 37:11
  this breakup and
• 37:11
  everything if you like have one of your most successful hauls
• 37:15
  like go on you know
• 37:16
  SPEAKER_00: like good for you
• 37:18
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, they're cute, too.
• 37:20
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, everyone, it's like Valentine's Day just signals like pajamas.
• 37:26
  But I think what's interesting about them is that part of their
• 37:31
  appeal is that they
• 37:32
  are like seemingly public facing with their relationship and
• 37:36
  their love is like so
• 37:37
  SPEAKER_00: for like forefront in their content.
• 37:41
  SPEAKER_03: The internet, I will say, is souring on Cookie and Jet big time.
• 37:46
  SPEAKER_00: Really?
• 37:46
  SPEAKER_00: Why?
• 37:47
  SPEAKER_00: I'm just, like, so curious.
• 37:48
  SPEAKER_00: What's the sour?
• 37:49
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 37:51
  SPEAKER_03: They're saying it's performative.
• 37:52
  SPEAKER_00: It's performative.
• 37:53
  SPEAKER_03: I was going to say,
• 37:54
  SPEAKER_03: I think that,
• 37:55
  SPEAKER_03: like,
• 37:55
  SPEAKER_03: even like that,
• 37:57
  SPEAKER_03: couples content,
• 37:58
  SPEAKER_03: evergreen,
• 37:59
  SPEAKER_03: evergreen vertical,
• 38:00
  SPEAKER_03: right?
• 38:00
  SPEAKER_03: People love couples content.
• 38:01
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 38:01
  I think why Pookie and Jet popped off is because it was from
• 38:05
  the male perspective.
• 38:07
  Like,
• 38:07
  we're very used to,
• 38:09
  like,
• 38:09
  women being like,
• 38:10
  oh my gosh,
• 38:10
  my boyfriend's the best.
• 38:11
  SPEAKER_03: Look what he did.
• 38:12
  SPEAKER_03: But he was just like, look it.
• 38:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, adoring.
• 38:14
  SPEAKER_03: She's gorgeous.
• 38:15
  SPEAKER_03: She's beautiful.
• 38:16
  SPEAKER_03: Blah, blah, blah.
• 38:17
  SPEAKER_00: Also, I just want to say, too, his voice.
• 38:19
  SPEAKER_00: Like,
• 38:20
  I don't think you can discount his like accent and how he like
• 38:24
  his cadence of speaking.
• 38:25
  SPEAKER_00: Like it pulls you in.
• 38:27
  SPEAKER_00: I'm sorry.
• 38:27
  SPEAKER_00: Like he should like narrate things.
• 38:30
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 38:31
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 38:31
  SPEAKER_03: So I think that was kind of,
• 38:33
  SPEAKER_03: it's the wish fulfillment,
• 38:34
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 38:34
  SPEAKER_03: of like having someone who just spoils you unconditionally.
• 38:37
  SPEAKER_03: Like that's kind of what people are watching.
• 38:39
  But now that he's giving people the ick,
• 38:42
  he's ruined the wish fulfillment element of the brand.
• 38:45
  SPEAKER_03: Cause like, you're like, I want this, but not from that guy.
• 38:48
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 38:49
  SPEAKER_03: So then it's like kind of takes you out of it a little bit.
• 38:53
  SPEAKER_03: I also like, oh, that's so funny.
• 38:56
  SPEAKER_00: That is really funny.
• 38:57
  SPEAKER_00: I also think it's because they came like onto the scene as a pair.
• 39:02
  SPEAKER_00: Like she was obviously the star, but like he was in all of her content.
• 39:08
  SPEAKER_00: And he was like often the cameraman or like the voice behind the camera,
• 39:13
  SPEAKER_00: similar to like Aspen,
• 39:15
  SPEAKER_00: Ovard and Parker.
• 39:16
  SPEAKER_00: Like,
• 39:18
  SPEAKER_00: Cause we were also like,
• 39:20
  it's interesting in a lot of like the lifestyle influencers
• 39:24
  that I follow,
• 39:25
  SPEAKER_00: like when their boyfriends are featured in content,
• 39:29
  SPEAKER_00: people are like,
• 39:29
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not here for him.
• 39:31
  Like,
• 39:33
  SPEAKER_00: I don't,
• 39:33
  I'm not interested in like what your boyfriend thinks about the
• 39:38
  new shoes you got.
• 39:39
  SPEAKER_00: Um,
• 39:40
  So I think like and one of the examples of that is like we were
• 39:45
  talking about in
• 39:46
  the pre-call like Hallie Kate and like her audience doesn't
• 39:50
  like her boyfriend.
• 39:51
  SPEAKER_00: And she's she's aware of that.
• 39:54
  SPEAKER_00: And she has like I know you guys don't like him.
• 39:57
  So like I'm not going to really he's not going to really be a
• 39:59
  part of my content.
• 40:01
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 40:03
  she's like very transparent and like I think she's a great
• 40:07
  example she posts a lot
• 40:08
  of hauls she's a fashion creator but it leads with like her
• 40:13
  personality and I feel
• 40:15
  like she is like and self-awareness too like she exercises a
• 40:20
  lot of self-awareness
• 40:22
  and she talks about like local New York City causes that like
• 40:26
  she cares about and
• 40:27
  SPEAKER_00: like
• 40:28
  SPEAKER_00: encourages her audience to volunteer, donate, all those things.
• 40:35
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah,
• 40:35
  SPEAKER_00: and she just got engaged and basically was like,
• 40:38
  you're not going to be seeing a lot of like wedding engagement
• 40:41
  content from me.
• 40:43
  SPEAKER_00: She's like, don't worry.
• 40:47
  SPEAKER_00: I would just say,
• 40:49
  SPEAKER_00: getting back to like the top of this conversation topic,
• 40:53
  SPEAKER_00: when we were talking about Danielle Bernstein and like the fallout of her
• 40:56
  SPEAKER_00: engagement,
• 40:58
  And like the long form push to her Substack for her deeper
• 41:02
  thoughts.
• 41:02
  SPEAKER_00: I do think that that's like interesting.
• 41:05
  SPEAKER_00: It's not the first time we have seen that.
• 41:06
  SPEAKER_00: Like Ariel Charnas did it.
• 41:08
  SPEAKER_00: Hers was behind a paywall though, which was also interesting.
• 41:12
  SPEAKER_03: And I feel like Olivia Nussi,
• 41:16
  SPEAKER_03: that whole drama playing out over sub stack,
• 41:18
  SPEAKER_03: like that was,
• 41:20
  SPEAKER_03: I feel like similar in that it was like,
• 41:22
  SPEAKER_03: if you want to really be in the weeds on the drama,
• 41:24
  SPEAKER_03: you have to go read our sub stacks.
• 41:25
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 41:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
• 41:27
  SPEAKER_00: I would say,
• 41:27
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 41:27
  SPEAKER_00: it's interesting to me because I feel like it's from,
• 41:30
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 41:30
  SPEAKER_00: a digital strategy perspective.
• 41:32
  It feels like it's becoming clearer what sub-sex rule is in a
• 41:37
  digital ecosystem.
• 41:38
  SPEAKER_00: You know, like, what is the why?
• 41:39
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I know that, like,
• 41:41
  Founders always talk about it's like long form content the same
• 41:43
  way that like
• 41:45
  SPEAKER_00: Instagram was a photo platform for real photographers.
• 41:49
  SPEAKER_00: Like Substack is the writing platform for authors.
• 41:53
  SPEAKER_00: You know what I mean?
• 41:54
  So some of it has it's just been sort of funny seeing it fall
• 41:58
  into like place.
• 41:58
  But it's interesting because I feel like when it comes to like
• 42:01
  cultural relevance,
• 42:02
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like,
• 42:02
  SPEAKER_00: oh,
• 42:02
  SPEAKER_00: OK,
• 42:02
  SPEAKER_00: like this feels more.
• 42:04
  SPEAKER_00: like where it's landing, right?
• 42:05
  SPEAKER_00: Where it's like something has happened.
• 42:07
  SPEAKER_00: You want to hear my thoughts from me in written text.
• 42:10
  SPEAKER_00: This is where you go.
• 42:12
  SPEAKER_00: So I don't know.
• 42:13
  SPEAKER_00: I just like take that away from this too.
• 42:15
  SPEAKER_00: When I think about like,
• 42:17
  SPEAKER_00: as we strategize with clients,
• 42:19
  SPEAKER_00: like Substack,
• 42:21
  SPEAKER_00: why would you want to be on there?
• 42:22
  SPEAKER_00: What's the audience?
• 42:23
  SPEAKER_00: What's like, how does it sort of
• 42:25
  SPEAKER_00: fit into like all the other things that you're doing.
• 42:27
  Like I just take note of moments like this and just find it to
• 42:32
  be really interesting.
• 42:33
  SPEAKER_00: Like, you know?
• 42:34
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 42:35
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 42:35
  SPEAKER_03: And I also do,
• 42:37
  I do think what you said about like the sub-sex place in the
• 42:40
  internet ecosystem is
• 42:41
  interesting because I also think that that's something that's
• 42:45
  becoming more
• 42:46
  ingrained in internet culture of people understanding like
• 42:49
  different platforms have
• 42:50
  SPEAKER_03: different levels of nuance and
• 42:52
  And even just like a piece of content having more nuance that
• 42:56
  exists over on
• 42:57
  SPEAKER_03: Substack,
• 42:58
  SPEAKER_03: I feel like arms,
• 43:00
  SPEAKER_03: like it kind of disarms some of the lack of nuance on other platforms.
• 43:03
  Because then if there's a conversation happening over on TikTok
• 43:07
  that's really
• 43:08
  SPEAKER_03: surface level,
• 43:09
  SPEAKER_03: someone will be like,
• 43:10
  SPEAKER_03: well,
• 43:10
  SPEAKER_03: if you actually read her Substack,
• 43:11
  SPEAKER_03: she said the XYZ.
• 43:13
  SPEAKER_00: And then you...
• 43:15
  You can't then continue to like come from this place of
• 43:18
  authority because there's
• 43:19
  SPEAKER_03: more content out there that you have not consumed.
• 43:22
  SPEAKER_03: And in order to keep your authority to have that hot take you have,
• 43:26
  SPEAKER_03: you have to go consume it or give it up.
• 43:28
  So I think like even if not everybody is reading everything you
• 43:31
  write on Substack,
• 43:32
  the fact that like these more nuanced perspectives on Substack
• 43:36
  exist helps arm your
• 43:38
  audiences who are advocating for you as they're like talking
• 43:41
  about these things in
• 43:42
  SPEAKER_03: the comment section and stuff like that.
• 43:45
  SPEAKER_00: That's a really good segue into the final quick little topic for today,
• 43:51
  SPEAKER_00: which is Substack TV and how...
• 43:56
  SPEAKER_00: users are excited.
• 43:57
  Some are concerned and upset that Substack is like very much
• 44:03
  expanding into video
• 44:06
  SPEAKER_00: and they're launching a TV app so you can watch videos like this.
• 44:12
  Lives and like short form content from your TV and not just
• 44:17
  yourSubstack app on
• 44:19
  SPEAKER_00: your phone or your desktop.
• 44:23
  SPEAKER_00: So I think that's really interesting.
• 44:25
  SPEAKER_00: And I also like,
• 44:27
  like danielle bernstein an og instagram creator pushing to her
• 44:32
  Substack for her
• 44:33
  breakup breakup news and like the weirdness with tiktok us that
• 44:38
  we talked about
• 44:39
  last week where the algorithm got really funky a lot of the um
• 44:44
  creators i follow
• 44:45
  were pushing to their sub stacks as like if things get weird
• 44:49
  here you can find me
• 44:51
  SPEAKER_00: and my content onSubstack um
• 44:55
  SPEAKER_00: So I think like their push into video,
• 44:58
  SPEAKER_00: which has been happening for a while now,
• 45:02
  SPEAKER_00: you can just watch video on TV now,
• 45:05
  but it's really interesting for like those creators who maybe
• 45:12
  aren't interested in
• 45:13
  SPEAKER_00: writing and aren't writers,
• 45:16
  but want to add more like nuance and have longer form
• 45:22
  conversations with their
• 45:24
  SPEAKER_00: audiences.
• 45:26
  SPEAKER_00: can I make like a random thought here?
• 45:28
  SPEAKER_00: Like,
• 45:30
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know if it's like a prediction,
• 45:31
  SPEAKER_00: but like,
• 45:35
  SPEAKER_00: could this be Substack setting itself up to be like purchased by Netflix?
• 45:41
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, like with every platform, like morphing into each other.
• 45:49
  SPEAKER_00: It's like, I feel like
• 45:51
  SPEAKER_00: Like we always talk about like moving toward TV,
• 45:53
  SPEAKER_00: moving toward,
• 45:54
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 45:54
  SPEAKER_00: like you have,
• 45:55
  SPEAKER_00: and I think you have in here in the notes,
• 45:56
  SPEAKER_00: like the reference of like Instagram trying to do TV.
• 46:00
  SPEAKER_00: It's like, what about like TV trying to be social?
• 46:04
  SPEAKER_00: And like,
• 46:05
  SPEAKER_00: and like,
• 46:05
  SPEAKER_00: again,
• 46:06
  I also think that what's interesting with Substack 2 is just
• 46:10
  like how it's like a
• 46:12
  SPEAKER_00: place for like,
• 46:14
  SPEAKER_00: again,
• 46:15
  SPEAKER_00: long form written word.
• 46:15
  SPEAKER_00: It's like books we've talked about with like,
• 46:20
  SPEAKER_00: I don't want to get into it.
• 46:21
  We've had conversations with potential clients that I've like
• 46:23
  probably should
• 46:24
  SPEAKER_00: proprietary,
• 46:24
  SPEAKER_00: but I,
• 46:25
  SPEAKER_00: all of which to say,
• 46:26
  SPEAKER_00: it's like,
• 46:27
  SPEAKER_00: I actually think it would be an interesting,
• 46:28
  like supplement compliment to like an onscreen experience and
• 46:33
  not to say like,
• 46:34
  SPEAKER_00: whatever.
• 46:34
  SPEAKER_00: I just wanted to draw this parallel to like bring it up.
• 46:36
  SPEAKER_00: Cause I, it's like something that came to mind.
• 46:40
  SPEAKER_03: I mean,
• 46:41
  SPEAKER_03: that would be smart and strategic,
• 46:43
  SPEAKER_03: but I don't think that that is what is happening just based on subsects,
• 46:47
  SPEAKER_03: other moves.
• 46:48
  SPEAKER_03: I think this is just,
• 46:50
  SPEAKER_03: the every app wants to be every app.
• 46:52
  SPEAKER_03: So they're like, everybody else has video, we don't have video.
• 46:54
  SPEAKER_03: And I'm,
• 46:56
  SPEAKER_03: I'm reading the,
• 46:57
  SPEAKER_03: the introduction,
• 46:59
  the product announcement of them saying that they're going to
• 47:03
  do this and the way
• 47:04
  SPEAKER_03: that they've laid this out.
• 47:05
  It's just so clearly that it's like,
• 47:08
  this is good for us in our business to have this.
• 47:10
  So we've launched it and no thought was given to like how this
• 47:13
  is going to land
• 47:15
  SPEAKER_03: with the current super user on theSubstack because
• 47:19
  There's currently an anxiety in the journalism space about the
• 47:23
  push to video.
• 47:24
  And a lot of journalists have found refuge over on Substack and
• 47:27
  it championing the
• 47:28
  SPEAKER_03: written word.
• 47:29
  And so for them to drop this,
• 47:31
  I think just felt like a huge betrayal to that audience.
• 47:34
  SPEAKER_03: Like the highest comment is, please don't do this.
• 47:37
  SPEAKER_03: This is not YouTube.
• 47:38
  SPEAKER_03: Elevate the written word.
• 47:40
  SPEAKER_03: And I think that there was a way to get into video.
• 47:45
  SPEAKER_03: in a way that felt like more on brand for Substack.
• 47:48
  And this just feels like,
• 47:50
  well,
• 47:50
  everybody else is doing it,
• 47:51
  so we got to do it too.
• 47:53
  SPEAKER_00: That's really interesting.
• 47:56
  SPEAKER_00: What is it,
• 47:57
  SPEAKER_00: do you guys think that,
• 47:58
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 48:00
  SPEAKER_00: is it,
• 48:00
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 48:01
  SPEAKER_00: why does,
• 48:01
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 48:02
  SPEAKER_00: Substack,
• 48:03
  SPEAKER_00: Instagram,
• 48:04
  SPEAKER_00: which I really don't get,
• 48:05
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 48:05
  SPEAKER_00: why are they so focused on,
• 48:09
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 48:09
  SPEAKER_00: getting on TVs?
• 48:11
  SPEAKER_00: I know, like, YouTube is like,
• 48:14
  that's it yeah yeah I mean also I also think yeah it's the
• 48:20
  metrics that you can
• 48:21
  measure so like um I think that there is lack of trust in the
• 48:26
  engagement metrics of
• 48:28
  like views and likes and comments and shares being like
• 48:31
  reliable indicators of okay
• 48:33
  SPEAKER_03: my ads being seen but I feel like watch time because it is so like
• 48:39
  People trust TV and they trust like I see commercials and like
• 48:43
  those are widely viewed.
• 48:44
  And so I think the watch time metric or like hours watched or
• 48:49
  like views metric is
• 48:51
  just much more appealing right now to advertisers than some of
• 48:54
  these other social
• 48:55
  SPEAKER_03: media metrics.
• 48:56
  So they're leaning into videos because the thing is to video
• 49:00
  scale so quickly.
• 49:02
  If you've ever had a video go viral and you look at the metrics
• 49:05
  and it gives you
• 49:05
  SPEAKER_03: things like how many hours have been spent watching your video,
• 49:08
  SPEAKER_03: you're like a year of human life has been spent looking at my face.
• 49:13
  SPEAKER_03: That's crazy.
• 49:14
  SPEAKER_03: You know,
• 49:15
  so I think those metrics just feel more impressive and more
• 49:19
  like motivating to
• 49:20
  SPEAKER_03: advertisers.
• 49:21
  SPEAKER_03: And so that's why everybody is obsessed with video right now.
• 49:26
  SPEAKER_00: I mean,
• 49:26
  SPEAKER_00: I also,
• 49:27
  SPEAKER_00: plus one to that,
• 49:28
  SPEAKER_00: I was also going to say,
• 49:29
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 49:30
  SPEAKER_00: I think everyone is also recognizing that,
• 49:35
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 49:35
  SPEAKER_00: the frontier of video still has space for,
• 49:38
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 49:39
  SPEAKER_00: it's still,
• 49:39
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 49:39
  SPEAKER_00: right?
• 49:41
  SPEAKER_00: Like, again, we've talked about Quibi.
• 49:42
  SPEAKER_00: We've talked about, like, short-form documentaries.
• 49:45
  SPEAKER_00: We've talked about, like, the convergence of, like,
• 49:49
  even like books and like the literary world kind of burning
• 49:54
  into video too.
• 49:55
  SPEAKER_00: So it feels like there's still this like, it hasn't been like tapped yet.
• 50:01
  SPEAKER_00: Sorry, I'm hearing feedback as I'm talking.
• 50:03
  SPEAKER_00: But like,
• 50:04
  SPEAKER_00: I think that like,
• 50:05
  SPEAKER_00: again,
• 50:06
  it feels still like the Wild West where like gold can be like
• 50:10
  discovered with it.
• 50:11
  yeah i agree with that especially when things are always so up
• 50:15
  in the air with tick
• 50:16
  tock like when you think about it for the last like four years
• 50:20
  we've been like well
• 50:20
  tick tock could go away like at any moment every year so i
• 50:24
  think there's kind of
• 50:25
  also this like well if tick tock goes away those people need to
• 50:28
  go somewhere
• 50:28
  feeling that's everyone's like yeah well just in case we should
• 50:32
  make sure we're
• 50:32
  SPEAKER_03: ready to catch some of these users
• 50:35
  I was also,
• 50:35
  you know what,
• 50:36
  100%,
• 50:37
  like that's a really great observation too,
• 50:40
  Megan.
• 50:41
  And another thought too is that like if we're to like position
• 50:46
  and think about
• 50:47
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 50:47
  SPEAKER_00: okay,
• 50:47
  SPEAKER_00: what's next?
• 50:48
  Like we talk about AI,
• 50:50
  you know,
• 50:50
  my favorite book of all time,
• 50:52
  Ready Player One.
• 50:53
  SPEAKER_00: We talk about gaming, we talk about like Roblox and all of that.
• 50:57
  SPEAKER_00: Like, so like, I think that if a brand is being like
• 51:02
  SPEAKER_00: really forward thinking about like, what are the next like 10 steps?
• 51:05
  SPEAKER_00: I feel like video is like a step in there.
• 51:07
  SPEAKER_00: Like,
• 51:07
  SPEAKER_00: I just don't know where,
• 51:09
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 51:10
  SPEAKER_00: it's like,
• 51:10
  SPEAKER_00: do you go from like a written word,
• 51:12
  SPEAKER_00: like newsletter into like a,
• 51:15
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 51:15
  SPEAKER_00: gamified avatar situation?
• 51:19
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know, you know, but like video feels like the next
• 51:23
  SPEAKER_00: normal step to that where it's like,
• 51:25
  SPEAKER_00: okay,
• 51:25
  you get your audience engaged with video and then it can like
• 51:29
  evolve from there.
• 51:30
  SPEAKER_00: It's just like something else that comes to mind for me.
• 51:34
  SPEAKER_00: Interesting.
• 51:36
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, guys.
• 51:37
  SPEAKER_00: Well, this was a long conversation.
• 51:39
  SPEAKER_00: Really fun, though, and kind of like impromptu.
• 51:47
  SPEAKER_00: But thank you guys so much for joining us.
• 51:51
  As always,
• 51:52
  we will be posting this on Substack for you to view back.
• 51:58
  SPEAKER_00: at your leisure whenever you want to.
• 52:01
  And yeah,
• 52:02
  thank you guys so much for joining us and we will see you next
• 52:06
  week.
• 52:08
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 52:08
  SPEAKER_01: Bye.