Latest / The Dr. Psych Mom Show with clinical psychologist Dr. Samantha Rodman Whiten / The Self Made Man

Transcript

The Self Made Man · The Dr. Psych Mom Show with clinical psychologist Dr. Samantha Rodman Whiten

0:05
Hi everybody, and welcome to the doctors psych mom show.
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I'm trying something new today where I record this while I am
0:14
going to my son's pick up instead of talking on the phone
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because I only have so many hours in the day.
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And at first, I thought that like the audio quality would be
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low, but that's just a jokes, of course, my audio quality, super
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low all the time because I refuse to get a microphone
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because that I would have to sit and this is like The only time
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that I can stand and walk around and talking to my phone because
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during sessions, I do have to sit and I'm doing sessions all
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day. And then I thought nobody's
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paying for this podcast. Anyway, this is a free episode.
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So as I talk to my kids, you get what you get and you don't get
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upset. And does anybody remember which
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book that came from? It came from some book ladybug
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girl, anyhow. So that's why you may hear the
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audio quality being even worse. First than usual.
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So today I wanted to talk about a topic that is super
1:10
interesting. It's about the self-made man.
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I have written a lot about self-made, men and various
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regards. I have one key post about it
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called the self-made man in therapy and honestly a lot of
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people I work with are self-made men and women.
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I'll probably leave the self-made, women 14 subscribers
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only episode but you know, because there are a lot of
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overlaps but But there are also differences.
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So it's interesting enough to Merit its own episode.
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And I work with a lot of self-made men because it's
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interesting, I never thought about it, but one client said to
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me once that they wanted to come in to me because I was an
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entrepreneur and then I would understand him being an
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entrepreneur. So I didn't really think of
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myself as on the level of an entrepreneur, especially not
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many years ago, but there are certainly things that you do
2:01
understand. If you're, you know, if you own
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your own practice, Versus like working in an agency or
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something. So that's interesting and maybe
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it speaks to why I get so many self-made men or another, bigger
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reason why I get so many self-made.
2:15
Men it's probably because of the issues inherent in being a
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self-made, man, which I'm going to discuss here.
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So before I do that, obviously I have to ask you, my usual thing,
2:27
which is to subscribe because if you subscribe, I promise you
2:31
that you will never have to listen to my turn signal because
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I will I'll make sure to make all of those subscriber only
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episodes especially good by doing it in my basement instead
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of in my vehicle which by the way is an awesome.
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Dodge, Caravan 2013, 14. I don't know anyway.
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So let's turn to the self-made man.
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So what is a self-made man? Like so this is really a guy who
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did not get any support from his family financially and Instead,
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everything that he is, is due to his own hard work, and there
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could be multiple types of self-made, men in layers.
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So that's like the basic one. But then there's the guys who
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have like really good and close family support.
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So they didn't get any financial support, but they got emotional
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support. And if you don't have either
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one, then you're like a double self-made, man.
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And you got double the issues but it's also obviously your
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double as impressive in a Sense. So the self-made man didn't come
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from money but he made a lot of money and he's high-achieving a
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highly educated in a job that requires a lot of hard work and
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is often a think outside the box sort of person particularly if
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he's an entrepreneur. Now, a lot of these guys are
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entrepreneurs, because if you don't start out with a lot of
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family money or any family money, then it is harder to
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navigate. Grad school and like all of
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those things. So from a very early age, you're
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kind of thinking outside the box as to how you could make money.
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Whereas, if maybe you had parents, who had money, then you
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maybe would have just gone to law school or medical school or
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whatever, which is obviously very hard.
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But I mean, it's even harder if you have no money and you know
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that you'll never get any help with loans or anything like
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that. So a lot of these guys started
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their own businesses, which is really popular among people who
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Who are outside the box thinkers and interestingly entrepreneurs
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have very high rates of ADHD and learning disabilities.
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So these are smart. People who frequently are at the
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very least a little bit ADHD, particularly the hyperactive
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type of ADHD where they are very stimulation and
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sensation-seeking. And they they also in addition
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to working hard, they do play hard and they are drawn.
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A lot of sensation and drama. So a lot of these guys are drawn
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to dramatic and conflictual relationships.
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Especially when they are young, because those provide, a lot of
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drama, you need to go back to my ADHD podcast to understand why
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men with ADHD would be drawn to drama.
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That's something about the stimulation, right?
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The stimulation makes the brain, feel better feel alive and
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boredom doesn't work. So a lot of a self-made, man.
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If they do go into law or medicine, it's litigation or its
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emergency room medicine. It's something where, or or like
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they're did surgery. It's like they're dealing with a
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lot of people who are going to die, you know, in some way or
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another. So we keep some kind of on their
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toes and it makes them, it keeps them paying attention.
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So while you know, being a sensation seeker and stimulation
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Seeker are good qualities for a leader in certain regards.
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They are usually not great when the guy Settle down and be
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monogamous because they are more easily bored by Family.
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Life family, life is very routine and the wife frequently
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knows that this guy had a past where he was engaged in a lot of
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sensation seeking Behavior. So she could be more insecure
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potentially about infidelity, the rates of infidelity or
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obviously, going to go up. If the guys like meeting a
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million people, and traveling everywhere, which is also
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frequently. What happens with these guys?
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When they're at these high levels now, Now what
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distinguishes a guy who's just a super high achiever from a
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self-made man, is to be honest a self-made man.
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Needs more narcissism, he needs to believe that he is good
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enough to overcome the obstacles of starting out with either no
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money and or no family support. So there's a very adaptive
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mechanism as a child where he became his own hero kind of and
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The Narrative of his life is that he Able to, you know, take
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care of himself in a way that, like, others are not able to
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take care of him. So, especially if these guys did
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not have really supportive parents, they became their own
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parent and kind of parented themselves.
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And so, they had this like Superman Persona where they
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overshoot in their own mind what they can do.
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And they basically tell themselves that they're good at
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anything in order to like pep them.
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Selves up and like give themselves like like a
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confidence injection, like like a pep talk, all the time until
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they actually believe that they can do everything and they have
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enough success. And then the success feeds back
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into the narrative and self-identity.
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And it's this whole Loop where they try to do more things
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because they believe that they can do anything, because they
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just did a whole bunch of stuff. Nobody thought they could do
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etc. Etc, etc.
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So also, guess what? These Artistic traits do not
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work well with women. And so while a lot of women are
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initially drawn to guys who are arrogant because they seem like
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they have their shit together and all of that they feel like
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look this guy. So confident in himself he must
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really be the star. I should hitch my wagon to so
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women think this but then over time when they are confronted
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with more and more self-centered Behavior, which remember was
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very adaptive when the boy was growing up.
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This Behavior was super adaptive.
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Of nobody was really looking out for him.
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So he had to look out for himself and honestly the
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majority of the self-made men that I need it wasn't just like
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they didn't have money but they had all this love it just
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doesn't work like that somehow your you don't end up being
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fully self made. If you had like all this super
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supportive like attention. Like that isn't like that.
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That isn't the guys I see at least like they usually did not
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They usually had more struggles than most.
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Some of this could come because of the parents, not really being
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that supportive or a father being absent or parent having
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substance abuse issues ETC. But sometimes it's because they
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themselves did have ADHD or learning disabilities.
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And school was a disaster. Sometimes they were bullied.
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Sometimes there were sibling bullied.
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Usually, there's like something else going on.
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That gives the person enough almost like spite Right to
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decide that they're going to throw themselves into being
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super powerful and successful. So people will recount for me,
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like the moment that they realize that they wanted to make
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a lot of money and it's usually some like real sad story about
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realizing that a parent did could not do this or that for
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them or parent was humiliated by not having money or whatever it
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was they resolved to never be in that situation again and if they
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themselves were humiliated by not having money, then they
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resolve that their One day would never be in that situation
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again, but the same sensation seeking an arrogant traits that
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can make this person such a Powerhouse to deal with it.
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Can make them so intimidating and can make them really.
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A charismatic. Leader can be very difficult for
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women to live with long-term. So that's why a lot of these
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guys come in because their marriage isn't working.
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So a woman used to be super impressed by them and now she
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just not impressed by them anymore at all and they don't
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know. Know why they're still the same
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guy and they start to throw more and more money and resources at
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the problem. If she has problems with
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parenting, they get a nanny, they get another Nanny, they get
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her, a new car, if she's in a bad mood, they do all this
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stuff, but she doesn't like it anymore, because what she wants
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is somebody more empathic which is something that this guy never
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was. But of course, in the honeymoon
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stage, he was a little softer and more romantic because
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everybody is in the honeymoon stage, so she thought that she
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found may be the perfect man. He has this Ride this ambition.
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He's going to make something of himself.
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He's so impressive. And he's so loving and romantic,
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not so frequently that loving and romantic part goes away.
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And the guy frequently doesn't even realize it's gone away
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because he is in his mind, still trying to connect, particularly
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through things, like sex, which are very attractive for people
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who have a high stimulation need.
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So there is a profound overlap between these guys and the guys
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in the Ada. HD podcast on also, the guys in
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the mr. Perfect, and his crazy wife
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podcast, which is a bonus episode that I just recorded as
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part of my couples, you meet in counseling and Series.
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So they to other people, these men really look perfect.
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And they're so energetic, and proactive.
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They also, if they have kids, they really in this generation
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in other Generations, they would be at the office constantly.
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Not see the kids, but in this generation, Even more
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prestigious, and even better to engage with the kids.
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And then, you know, once people engage with their kids, they
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start to love to do that and they get kind of addicted to it.
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So, these men will always be taken their kids on adventures
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and travel, and they're coaching the team and they're doing all
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of these things. At the same level of intensity
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that they do everything else, which ironically could sometimes
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be a problem because the woman feels out Shadow overshadowed,
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and like she can't keep up and that her mothering NG is really
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not as as amazing as this guy's fathering which by the way, he's
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doing an addition to running the company that he built from the
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ground up. So she kind of feels like shit
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about herself and honestly women that are drawn to narcissistic
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Men, start off feeling like shit about themselves, so this only
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amplifies a problem. So if you're in this situation
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and this Dynamic you either are a self-made man or you're
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married to one, then understanding kind of the role
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of this. So Birdman Persona in, the boys,
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childhood is really useful in. Giving you a more holistic
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nuanced perspective on how this man came to be, who he is now,
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there are again men that have like, really loving families and
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and they just somehow, you know, they were poor families and then
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the guys, the first one to make it big.
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But what I see in my practice is not that it is the guys who
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Really had to also parent themselves because for one
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reason or another, the parents were not emotionally present.
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And when you couple that with the level of achievement that
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they've attained, they are pretty self congratulatory.
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Even though they may act humble, they internally are very self
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congratulatory about like how far they got as well, they
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should be. But they may not remember kind
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of all the mistakes that they made.
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They may not remember who they stepped on, to do whatever they
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did, they made. Not remember like that they
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actually did, maybe have some lucky breaks, of course,
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everybody does. So when these guys get to like,
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midlife and Beyond, they are in danger of growing, very
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arrogant, even more. So, and having this selective
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memory, this can also impact their parenting because they're
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great when the kids are little. But when the kids hit about
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teenage young adult years, some of them have this artificial
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idea that the child should have the same.
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Full of grit and perseverance, that they the father had without
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forgetting that they, the father had to like crawl through mounds
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of shit in their childhood. And obviously had to develop
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grit, very naturally and they've devoted their child's entire
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childhood to, you know, luxury and so.
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Therefore, what really did the child have to fight against
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nothing? So how could the child
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definitionally, the child cannot have that amount of grit because
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the child has never been asked to do anything, except perhaps,
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you know, a And the consignment or sport, they certainly did not
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have to figure out how to drag themselves out of a very
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dysfunctional, family, and or poverty.
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So this can lead to empathic ruptures with the children who
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feel that. Nothing they do is ever good
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enough for their dad and then the mother goes on the side of
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the kids. And then I also do see some of
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these men and therapy for these issues where there are ruptures
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with the children. Now in the, when I I have not
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seen these men, obviously in my office when they want to get rid
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of their wives, this is like a myth from the numbers that I
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see. Of course, I know him, a
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therapist and people don't come into therapy unless they want to
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work on themselves. But yet, I would think I would
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see some of these men dragged into therapy by their wives who
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they want to leave. I don't, these men are loyal to
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their wives, usually and love their wives very much.
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Especially if they met the wife before, they made it big because
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then they feel that this woman is Loyal to them and they feel
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they have evidence that the woman's intentions are pure
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versus perhaps women that they would meet when they're already
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wealthy. And whose intentions then might
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be more financially motivated. So usually I don't see these men
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wanting to upgrade to the hot young thing.
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Unless of course, the marriage has been emotionless and sexless
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for many years but they don't they seem to be very loyal to
16:29
family and this becomes part of the Superman Persona usually
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also becomes Devoted husband and father again only if the marital
16:39
issues are not so bad that he feels that practically speaking.
16:44
There's no hope left and we just need to go our separate ways so
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wet. If you are this sort of person
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and you struggle with emotional openness, or your husband, is
16:56
this sort of person and he struggles with emotional
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openness, like of course you do, because you spent the early part
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of your life, developing this hard shell that Protect you
17:05
because you had to be your own savior, your own protector, you
17:08
couldn't be vulnerable and you had to keep your eyes on the
17:11
prize of success and that does not mean being weak.
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That means being real strong. And then later in life, if your
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wife wants you to be more emotionally open, that just is
17:20
not a skill set that you may have developed, could you didn't
17:24
have all the luxuries that your children have now including you
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know to devoted parents and lots of money.
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So you was harder for you. So Upping that level of
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emotional. Openness was not really high on
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your list. It was much more survivalist
17:39
based, and even though now you're far away from when you
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need it, any you you know, you don't need to survive anymore,
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your way into thriving territory, you still have the
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same emotional closeness and guard up and defensiveness as
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any Scrappy person. Does you know who needs to fight
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to survive? You kind of, don't forget, that
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sort of mentality and that. Can be very difficult for women
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to get close to. So when I have these guys and
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couples counseling, a lot of what we work on is just them
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being even just a little bit vulnerable and sharing any of
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their less-than-perfect thoughts or feelings or any weakness or
18:21
insecurity at all with their spouses.
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Because frequently, these women think these guys are like
18:26
robots, you know, they just full steam ahead on everything work,
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hard, play hard and they don't see them as humans because these
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guys never show any sort. Art of again weakness or
18:36
insecurity or anything or fear or any vulnerable emotion, that
18:40
can make the women, possibly identify with them and
18:42
understand them. And of course, if the marriage
18:45
has become, then the sexless as the woman's response to feeling
18:49
lonely, then that is something worked on as well.
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Because like many guys, and most of these guys, by the way, are
18:55
avoidant attachment. So you could go back to my
18:57
attachment Theory, podcast to listen to avoid an attachment.
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But most of these guys are not comfortable with Two ways of
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being emotionally close except for sex.
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So if sex is off the table, then there's like nothing.
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And if they do start to have more of a physical affection in
19:15
their life, then that of course, will also Grease the wheels for
19:19
further emotional development, particularly within the confines
19:22
of couples counseling because that is what they're supposed to
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be focusing on. So I hope that this podcast gave
19:28
you some insight into your your own Psyche, if you are the
19:35
self-made man or that of your husband or partner, if you are
19:39
with such a man and a relationship and I do hope that
19:43
everybody has a great day. And that my first driving
19:47
podcast, there is funny because I talked to my husband on the
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phone like all the time when I am driving.
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Obviously I don't know if that's obvious but like a lot of people
19:57
do I think. And and so then I was like, I'm
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going to just record. I was thinking what the hell is
20:03
the difference? The only difference is the sound
20:05
quality and then I thought about the funny joke about how shitty
20:08
the sound quality is anyway. So it's really no change.
20:12
And on that note, I will talk to everybody later and I have a
20:17
zoom coming up with Dad starting over at 6:30 p.m. tonight.
20:21
So I'm going to link you guys to that too.
20:23
In case anybody decides to just show up that would be awesome.
20:27
Talk to everybody soon.