Latest / The YMyHealth Podcast | Wellness and Healthcare Insights for Millennials / Breaking the Cycle of Burnout: Practical Insights from Emily Labutta
Transcript
- 00:02 Melissa Schenkman Welcome to the YMyHealth Podcast, a healthcare podcast created by millennials for millennials. I'm Melissa Schenkman. 00:08 Julie Woon And I'm Julie Woon. We're two members of Gen Y on a mission to tackle the health challenges unique to people in their 20s, 30s, and 40s. 00:16 Melissa Schenkman With inspiring Survivor stories, plus insights and practical advice from experts across the country. We've got you covered. 00:23 Julie Woon Whether you're navigating a chronic condition, cancer, or challenges to your mental health, or. 00:27 Melissa Schenkman You'Re trying to manage our complicated healthcare system and your preventive or just want to make smarter healthcare choices, this is the podcast for you. 00:37 Julie Woon Let's get started. Hi, everyone. Welcome to the why YMyHealth Podcast. My name is Julie Woon, and today I am joined by Emily Labutta. She is a licensed associate professional counselor who brings a unique blend of legal expertise and mental health practice to her work. Emily specializes in helping high achievers, perfectionists, and those struggling with burnout. And today we are speaking with her about burnout because she sounds like the perfect guest to speak with us about that. Emily, thank you so much for joining us. 01:09 Emily Thank you for having me here. I love talking about this. I think we don't talk about it enough, so I'm glad we're entering the conversation. 01:16 Julie Woon Well, before we dive into burnout specifically, I wanted to see if you could share a little bit about what led you from being a trial attorney to. To becoming a counselor who's focused on mental wellness. 01:27 Emily Labutta Sure. So sometimes when people ask, you know, just, hey, that's a pretty big career change, sometimes they'll ask like, hey, what happened? And I'll kind of jokingly say, oh, I burned out. Like, I burned out hard. And it's part joke, but it's also part truth in there. I was working as a criminal prosecutor, so I saw really any kind of crime you can imagine. I have probably prosecuted it from your dog bite cases, your county ordinance noise violations, your traffic tickets, to your murder, aggravated assault, child cases, things like that. So I was seeing a lot of everything, from being dealt bad cards in life to really, truly evil things. 02:19 Emily Labutta And I did not have adequate support in my life, didn't have adequate support systems, and I didn't know how to draw lines in my own life and say, no, I'm putting this case file down. I need to look after myself. So that coupled with really wanting to help, but in a different way, I really think it boils down to before, I was fighting the darkness, and now, hopefully, I'm trying to add to the light. 02:50 Julie Woon That's amazing. And I think burnout feels like something that I hear talked about a lot, especially within the millennial generation. It feels like even seemingly, you know, there's the jobs where you understand, right? Like being a trial attorney, where you are dealing with a lot of heavy stuff. Maybe you work in healthcare, you work in a very high stress environment. Like, those are jobs that I think probably tend to lean that way. But even people in jobs that maybe aren't so high stakes in that same manner, I think you just hear that there's a lot of stuff going on within the world too, that it can lead to burnout, you know, on top of your work. So just busy social lives, maybe even the news, what else is going on. It feels very prevalent. 03:30 Julie Woon And I, I myself have definitely dealt with burnout in previous positions. And so I'm curious what specific factors you see contributing to burnout among millennials compared to other generations. 03:42 Emily Sometimes when we talk about burnout, it becomes another thing that somebody's doing wrong. Like, great, I feel terrible. And now it's apparently my fault that I feel terrible. If we think about it as being fish in water, it's not just how we're swimming, but it's also the water we swim in. And so what I hear your question as is, well, what's the effect of the water? What's the effect of the water, particularly on millennial fish? And so I think you're raising excellent points about it's not always just the certain types of jobs. It's how we approach a work week. There have been studies, right? We still are productive in a four day work week, but we live in a society that has chosen to structure and elevate a five day work week. We live in a culture that tends to elevate busyness over rest. 04:43 Emily If I come into the office and I say, oh man, I was here like all Friday night till 8pm what's the next thing someone's going to say? Oh, yeah, I was in here Saturday. Oh, well, I was in here all weekend. And it becomes this one upmanship, right? Where busyness and hustle is prized more by our culture than rest. And saying, oh, actually like, I went home and I read a book and I went to bed early and I like, eat something nice for dinner because it sounded good to me. We view that as in a lot of ways. And whether we should view it this way is another question. But that sometimes gets viewed as weak and not caring. But burnout is generally a product of caring. It's not the people who don't care. About their jobs that burn out. 05:35 Emily It's the people who care and care a lot, but don't know how to also care about themselves in that mix. So for millennials, specifically, have we learned how to care for ourselves? How were we taught that? What did we learn as, like, kids growing up and in a world that we're seeing? You know, what's the running joke on some memes? Oh, the millennials are just living through our next once in a lifetime event that creates what's called allostatic load on the system. That leads to stress, that leads to just load. And so if we are carrying all of that now, in addition to carrying, call it a high stress job or call it a low stress job, we're carrying that. We're carrying financial worries, we're seeing the, like, second stock market decline. 06:27 Emily All of that plays a role that's not just you're swimming wrong, it's, hey, this ocean has got some stuff in the water. 06:37 Julie Woon I love that analogy. And I think, yeah, to your point, there is a lot of events happening. The contributes. But, yeah, that cultural element of it's always a competition to be the most busy or the most accomplished. And Americans specifically, I think, do very much have an entrepreneurial spirit, I guess. But also, there comes some downsides with that hustle culture that I think I definitely see. And you talk to these people specifically a lot of millennials who really struggle with perfectionism. You know, they've prided themselves in being high achievers throughout their life, I think. I know. Especially, like coming out of school and going into, like, the regular job market when you're younger. That being a specific point in my life where, you know, you've always been graded. 07:22 Julie Woon And so there's like this actual mark or symbol of your achievement and then going into regular work and then, you know, having to kind of adjust to that and, like, finding these different things and ways of measuring accomplishment and reidentifying and really struggling with, like, how do I reach perfection? But is that also necessary? And so I'm curious what patterns you see for individuals specifically who are struggling with perfectionism or people who have been kind of historically high achievers. 07:55 Emily So let's talk about kind of the tail end of that, which will answer the middle part of that. So what do I see with perfectionists, with people who are high achievers? What I'm always looking at is, well, what happens if you're not perfect? What happens if you don't achieve? Because looking out for trying to do our best is a great thing. Like, I think most of us want to do well. We want to achieve great things. We want to hit our goals. But is it safe for us to not do so? Is it the end of the world if we don't do so? Is it so intolerable that no, I'm more willing to drive myself into the ground rather than be a little. Not even subpar, but what we view sometimes as subpar. 08:49 Emily So I think a lot of it, I'm looking at previous history, right? Where did these beliefs start that I'm not good enough and so I have to prove my worth through how I achieve, that I don't belong. But if I can make myself valuable, then maybe I belong, that I'm not worth anything unless I perform Things like that really often are rooted in childhood. We see those beliefs play out, whether it's in school or then translates into our career lives. So I think we see kind of people's reactions to what happens if they aren't perfect. And that's what I'm looking for. 09:35 Julie Woon I see a lot of people who maybe struggle with perfectionism and burnout also tend to be people pleasers. And I was curious if there's a connection between people, know those two characteristics within people. 09:50 Emily I would say there is overlap. I would say more correlation than causation. Right. But if we look at things from a lens of creating safety, a people pleaser is generally coming from a lens of I'm not okay unless everyone else is okay. A perfectionist is coming from the lens of I'm not okay unless it's perfect. And sometimes that blends because sometimes other people want us to be perfect and sometimes other people are pleased by perfection. 10:27 Julie Woon So I guess for individuals that you treat or people who may be listening and are struggling with, you know, perfectionism, people pleasing burnout. How do you, I guess, address that within your personal life and start making either drawing boundaries or, you know, kind of setting yourself up to take those levels of stress down a little bit. 10:49 Emily Yeah, absolutely. I say the first part, let's start with like noticing, right? Because usually by the time someone's like, I'm burned out. We've had some warning signs along the way. So some of the warning signs we want to pay attention to are things like increased irritability, increased fatigue, things that are our body's reaction of saying, hey, I'm overloaded. It's also when you start feeling like, atypical or like uncharacteristically different in your performance. So these are typically very high performing people. And suddenly it's like, I can't get anything done. I'm procrastinating. I'm waiting till the last minute to do something. When I do something, it's taking me longer. And what most people will do is they will put their heads down and say, I just need to try harder. I just need to push harder, work harder, do more, be more. 11:49 Emily And instead it's like, hey, you're not showing up the way you normally show up. That should be a sign at the very least to get curious and say, what's going on? Let me look at my support needs. Let me look at my life, my structure, all the things like, let me look at the water I'm swimming in and then let's see if I can keep swimming. Not just I need to swim harder and better. So then once we've gotten either we're the warning signs or we're like full send, we're in it and we need to do something different. The tricky thing in this is, like you mentioned, setting boundaries. Setting boundaries is something we do for ourselves. It's not something that controls other people. So I can set a boundary and have somebody not respect it. 12:43 Emily My boundary doesn't say what they get to do. My boundary tells them what I will do. So if I say to my boss, hey, I know I used to work till 8pm at night. That's not working for me anymore. I actually need to leave at 5. My boss might decide to fire me. And I get to decide which one of those things is more painful. Is it more painful for me to continue living the way I'm living, driving myself deeper and deeper into burnout? Or maybe it's more painful to get fired. And so I say, you know what, I'll stick with this. The reason I even bring this up right, is because sometimes there's a sense of shame that goes along with burnout. Not just from the I did this to myself, but also the I can't get out because I need this job. 13:41 Emily We talked about the economy a little bit. The economy's not giving people a lot of hope right now. So some people, it might mean maybe we put our heads down right now and we do swim harder. But how can we do that in a supporting, supportive way? And so where it isn't tenable to draw those boundaries, what else can we do? We need to look at getting those our needs met in different ways and even tuning into what those needs are. So when we think of our needs, when we think of self care, most people are going to go, okay, bubble baths, read a book. I'M supposed to light a candle, I guess, and kind of feel better. That's all well and good, and that's all great, right? But self care is also things. 14:31 Emily Like when I walk into my house and I see the dishes in the sink, I don't like how that feels. It actually makes me feel more tired. So sometimes my self care is what's going to make future Emily feel better. Present Emily might not want to do the dishes, but present Emily is going to try to be really nice to future Emily. So some of it is like, what do we need in the future that we can do for ourselves now? Some of it is also, let's meet all of our needs in the sense of. We think of emotional needs, social needs, spiritual needs, physical needs. There's probably more than that, but those are the ones kind of coming to mind. And often what we'll do is we'll meet one of those and be like, oh, you know, I. I started getting good sleep. 15:24 Emily I started trying to sleep seven to eight hours a night, so I should better. It's like, okay, did you connect with nature, connect with a friend, move your body, and also connect with your sense of purpose in the world? If not, yeah, we've done something, but it makes sense that you would still feel not the greatest. So I think the path of getting out of burnout is recognizing early warning signs. Then once we're in it, set boundaries if possible, but also assess where maybe you make a necessary choice, depending on the realities of your circumstances. And then let's make sure we're meeting all of our needs in all areas for both our present and future selves. 16:12 Julie Woon So people who you're struggling with, maybe chronic burnout, you know, if they're not taking these steps and they've really gone. Gone deep into it, what is the effect on that, you know, from a mental or even maybe physical health standpoint? 16:27 Emily Yeah, so chronic burnout is. It's very tricky because it can feel also like a loss of identity in a lot of ways, because generally then we're going to need a deeper sense of rest, a deeper sense of, like, let's step away from hustle culture, but, like, let's also step away from screens from stimulation, from things that tell your. Your nervous system to heighten and ramp up. Let's do things that get it to slow down. The things that can feel ineffectual in the early stages but are designed to work. Things like breath work, things like meditation, things like literally go outside and touch grass. Like, we are that actually legitimately Works like get in nature. Treat yourself like a complicated houseplant that needs some sunlight and needs some nourishment and also movement, unlike a plant, but get outside and slow down. 17:31 Emily But that process can take, depending on how long we've been in. In chronic burnout, it can take months and years to get out of burnout. And so what happens, or what I see is then sometimes people can feel unlike themselves. They're like, but I'm this high achiever, but I. I do everything. Not only do I do everything, but then I do more than that, and I do it all well. Like, I can spin every plate there is, and you know what, Throw a couple extra on there. And people are gonna ask me how it's done. I'm the person that they look at and say, I don't know how you do it all. Like, if you get to that point where then you're like, okay, I'm done. Being in that more restful state is going to feel antithetical to who you are. 18:24 Emily And some of the work becomes identity work. Are you the work that you did? Maybe not. Maybe you're not the work you did. Maybe you're your values. Maybe you value being disciplined. Maybe you value showing up for people. But maybe working yourself to the bone is coming from a sense of not enoughness and not from a place of value. 18:52 Julie Woon Now we'd like to take a minute to talk about today's sponsor, Diekmann Dysautonomia. Have you or a loved one been struggling with symptoms like fainting, a racing heart, or crushing fatigue, only to feel dismissed or unheard by doctors? You may be experiencing dysautonomia pots or long Covid. Dr. Sarah Diekman understands because she has been there. As someone who faced pots during medical school, Dr. Diekman knows firsthand the frustration of searching for answers. That's why she's turned her fight into a mission to help patients with these conditions live fuller, healthier lives. With her expertise from John Hopkins and a commitment to listening and truly understanding, Dr. Diekman offers compassionate, cutting edge care tailored to your unique needs. Visit dysautonomiaexpert.com or call 833-768-7633 to begin your journey today at Diekman Dysautonomia. Your voice won't just be heard. It will be deeply understood. 19:45 Julie Woon It's so interesting to do this episode because as I've, like, come into, I guess my mid-30s now, like, I didn't have that name for it of identity work. But it is very much kind of almost reckoning that I had to have with myself as I started to try to pull away from a level of burnout that I had been experiencing at some previous jobs. And it is very uncomfortable at times to be in that place of like, I'm burnt out. I also don't, I feel like I've lost like a sense of who I am and like, what do I want, like actually if it's not what I pictured as my 10 year plan, so to speak, for this kind of like realignment of my own personal values. 20:26 Julie Woon And it sounds like that is kind of like a part of this is, you know, what do you value for yourself and your time? It's just one of those things that I think, like I saw on your website in your bio, you discussed this self compassion in your approach and for me that's where this hits. And so can you expand a little bit more on that self compassion approach that you take to perfectionism, burnout, imposter syndrome, things like that? 20:54 Emily Absolutely. I think this touches in some ways upon even what you were saying earlier. When we transfer from school based performance. Right. To career based performance in school, there's a very clear, cool. I am the straight A student. Cool. I am the top of my class. I'm the valedictorian. I'm the blank. Fill in the blank with clear, measurable outcomes. In a lot of careers, yeah, there are metrics and things we can look at. Oh, how many cases did you win? How many, you know, patients are you seeing? How many hours are you working? Things like that. But in a lot of ways, there's not the clear definable. I turn in this paper, the paper is now over, and then I get an A on it. The job just kind of keeps going. There's not clear end points and there's not always clear feedback. 21:54 Emily So when we're navigating, honestly, that in itself is a identity question. Okay, so who am I now if I'm not the straight A student? Who am I in this role? How do I carve out my place? Well, then we start hustling, right? Because we're like, I knew my place there. I, I think my place is top performer over here. And so when we're doing this, when we're trying to approach this from a different place, I think self compassion is rooted in a lot of what Kristin Neff calls. She has three different prongs, including mindfulness, which is like, let's just pay attention. Kristin Neff is one of the leading researchers on compassion and self compassion. And the mindfulness component is, let's not just hustle and miss how we actually feel. 22:48 Emily Let's develop that sense of interoception, or what we call, like, the awareness of what's going on inside ourselves. So if we notice, oh, hey, every time I go to my boss's office, I start feeling a little bit tense. I can feel my heart race a little bit. Even when, like, every time they're like, hey, I want to talk, and they're like, you're doing great. That, like, I want to talk, text. Oh, we've all had that where we're like, cool, I'm getting fired. And it's like, it's actually like, oh, you're getting a bonus, you're getting a raise, you're getting a promotion. And it's like, yeah, but I thought for a second I wasn't. Let's pay attention to that. And instead of paying attention from a sense of what am I doing wrong, let's pay attention from a place of curiosity. 23:34 Emily Let's look at that and say, huh, I wonder why? What's going on there? Just almost like you're a researcher of yourself. There's not a right answer. There's not a wrong answer. We're just kind of looking and getting curious. But then too, especially like for millennials, for this kind of age of like young adults, right, There's a sense, I find, in a lot of people that we're supposed to have it figured out. And like, I haven't met a single adult that feels like an adulty enough adult. So they put me in charge, so I'm the one in charge. And sometimes we can feel a sense of shame that we, quote, unquote, got it wrong. You were mentioning earlier, like, oh, I this was my 10 year plan and I'm changing it. 24:29 Emily And sometimes then we feel like we failed or we got it wrong or, well, I thought this. And so what did I miss that I could have prevented this? Maybe you didn't miss anything. Maybe you did exactly what you knew with the information you had at the time, with the sense of self you had at the time. And maybe that self and that knowledge has changed. And it doesn't mean you got anything wrong. It means change is an inevitable part of life. Can we accept it? Can we embrace it? And it doesn't mean that we always like the ways we change. Sometimes we say, oh, I'm getting harsher, or I'm showing up not as my best self right now. I would like that to change. 25:19 Emily But the very idea of drawing awareness and even talking about this is predicated upon the idea that we can do something about it. And so if we can change, I think there's a level where we have to not shame ourselves for not knowing or not being. Or again, back to perfectionism. Not getting it right because we're growing and changing and evolving human beings. 25:47 Julie Woon Is that how you would almost define the imposter syndrome piece of this? I know a lot of people say that they struggle with that, you know, they're in a position where they feel like it's not deserved or unearned or they're not qualified. And it's very interesting, I think, to hear people talk about that because they do tend to be high achievers. People who have, like, done the work and they've worked really hard for where they're at, but they're the ones who feel that level of insecurity about the position they might be in. 26:17 Emily Yeah. So I think imposter syndrome I would view as like slightly distinct from burnout. But they can go hand in hand. If we think of imposter syndrome from both an internal and an external perspective, starting with the internal. I think some people have heard of the Dunning Kruger effect, which talks about the effect of our knowledge. So they have shown that the less we know about something, like when we know a little bit, but not a lot, we think we know a ton about it. And then when we know more than that, now we feel like we know nothing. So a lot of high achievers, a lot of highly successful people have hit that point where they're like, I know just enough to know exactly how much I don't know. Like, if you've never heard of Plato, you don't know that. 27:16 Emily You don't know Plato's theory of the forms. You're just like, oh, yeah, like I know things. But now, once we have a certain piece of knowledge, now we are more aware of how little we know. Now this does eventually kind of even out. We then generally learn more and then we feel better about, oh, I do actually know some things. Now that's some of the internal. Let's talk about the external too, because where I see imposter syndrome coming up, and this is a gross overgeneralization, but it tends to be people who would identify as a minority in some way, whether it's women, racial minorities, sexual minorities. It could be even just like, what field you are in. Counseling is a very like white woman dominated industry. 28:11 Emily So a man in counseling could feel some sense of imposter syndrome or like tech tends to be pretty male dominated. So a woman in tech may feel some sense of imposter syndrome. And this is not just like perceived internally, it's also how we are treated by the people around us. Right. We've seen all the studies on implicit bias that we know if a man walks interrupts somebody in a meeting and says, well, I have an idea. Oh, he's leadership material. If a woman does the same thing, she is power hungry at worst, or at best and some other less savory words at worst. So it's not just how we perceive ourselves, but it's how other people treat us. And so I think there has to be some acknowledgment of the, again, the water we swim in has an impact on our ability to swim. 29:17 Julie Woon I want to talk a little bit about, you know, just kind of like a forward look of what changes you're seeing in younger generations and how they approach work life balance. I've seen different, either memes or even news articles about this of how each generation treats work a little bit differently. And it's interesting to see like how Gen Z is coming up and many millennials have children of their own now. And I think in raising your kids that's something that you can be, I guess, acknowledging and bearing in mind too, of like, I guess not pressuring them with this kind of level of perfectionism that you might have grown up with. And so, yeah, just curious to see what differences you've seen in younger generations and how they're approaching work life balance and burnout. 30:04 Emily Absolutely. I think some of it is rooted in a shift that we see in how offices, cultures, companies treat their workers. Right. So it used to be in the older generations, you kind of started somewhere and you stayed there. You paid your dues, you probably kind of were the bottom of the barrel for a little bit, but you worked your way up the ladder and it eventually paid off. Now, we know that making horizontal or diagonal moves is the way to climb the ladder in most jobs. I'm sure there's some exceptions to that. I'm sure there's some companies, people, etc. Right. That are exceptions. 30:50 Emily But rather than climb vertically on the same ladder, hey, I can move to that adjacent ladder, but I can go up a rung when I move to that ladder and then the next ladder I'm going to go to, I can move up a rung or two. So we see these more diagonal moves that are rewarding being in changing environments rather than staying in one place. And so that I think does play a role on kind of millennials view, on culture, workplace, how we approach work. Then when we look to, like, younger generations, what I think we're starting to see is like, sometimes Gen Z plays out like the disillusionment of millennials, where millennials are like, okay, you kicked us while we're down, we'll just stay down here. Gen Z is like, we ride at dawn, they're ready to go. 31:47 Emily And so you see them saying, hey, this job, this wage is actually untenable for my bills and what I need. And I am leaving at 5 because there's not a climbing of the corporate ladder anymore. I get nothing by staying late. There's no sense of loyalty. There's no sense of like, the company will fire you as soon as it's not worth it to them. So Gen Z says, yeah, I'm leaving at 5. Some of that I think is actually really healthy. Right where they're like, if I'm not getting paid, why would I be here? This is a transaction. Sometimes it potentially goes maybe a hair too far where there's a, if I don't want to do it, I won't. And while I love the like, we protect our personal boundaries. Yeah, if you don't want to do something, don't do it. 32:41 Emily But that doesn't mean there aren't consequences associated with that decision. So almost like were talking before, it might mean you say, yeah, I'm leaving at 5. And it also might mean your boss says, cool, then we're going to fire you and hire the person who's going to work an 80 hour work week. And so living with that tension, I think is something that Gen Z is still learning how to navigate. 33:06 Julie Woon And are there any other insights that you've gleaned from working with clients who are experiencing burnout? 33:13 Emily I would say the biggest thing is the people who experience burnout are the people you want on your team. They're the people who care. They're the people who want to do a good job. They're the people who are trying their hardest. Like, these are people who say, yeah, I don't want to do a bad job. And I, I really actually want to be here. And I care that it's done right. It's just that at a certain point, maybe it wasn't safe to be wrong, to be less than perfect, to say, no, I'm leaving at 5. And so if these people can learn how to, like, harness that energy in a way that says, hey, this is something I value. I am going to make values driven action towards my goals, while also putting themselves in that category of something they value. Then you're golden. 34:16 Julie Woon That's, I think, the kind of perfect synopsis for this episode. I love it. Maybe one final question for you before we wrap up today is what gives you hope when it comes to addressing kind of this maybe over exaggerating, but epidemic of burnout that we're seeing with Millennials? 34:38 Emily Oh, that's such a good question. I think personally, I have been very burnt out and I had to take a step back. And while I was getting my graduate degree, which I acknowledge does not sound like taking a step back, but I worked at a local running store. I went from being a trial attorney to working retail. And, like, not only was that a very big difference in pay, that was a very big difference in the type of work I was doing and where I couldn't really leave a file at the office. Like, emotionally, mentally, I could leave retail at the store. And so I learned how to say, oh, this is how I do it. And sometimes it really does mean taking a step back so that now I know how to set those, like, physical boundaries of, okay, I don't. 35:39 Emily I don't like seeing clients at this time or this time. Oh, I will see clients at these times. But also the mental and emotional boundaries of, oh, I might think about a client outside of session, but I'm not going to spiral on them. I'm not going to worry and pick at their problems to the point where I can't hold my own stuff anymore. So some of what gives me hope is the fact that I feel like I have recovered through it. So I'm like, well, shoot, if I can do it, surely other people can too. But I think too, honestly, Gen Z gives me hope. They're approaching things from a different lens, and I think that's showing us that at least a difference is possible. 36:26 Emily And, you know, everything comes with its own set of wonderful, beautiful benefits and risks and challenges, but I think they're at least showing us a different way. And then too, just the sheer fact that people who experience burnout are the high achievers, are the perfectionists, are the people who feel like imposters. That very thing that can feel like a weakness is really a strength in a lot of ways. And I don't mean to, like, undermine the struggle, but to say these are driven, capable, caring people. You want me to put my money on someone? It's them. 37:08 Julie Woon Absolutely. Well Emily, thank you so much for joining us today. I personally found this episode, I think very therapeutic and I hope our listeners did too. So again, we appreciate you coming on the show and is there anything before we wrap that you want to plug or anywhere that people can find you if they want to learn more? 37:26 Emily Oh, I appreciate you so much for having me for having this discussion. I will be accepting new clients attento Counseling in Kennesaw starting out mid May. So I if I can help anyone talk through this, hear their story and help rewrite that story with a little more self compassion, I would love to. 37:47 Julie Woon Thank you so much. 37:48 Emily Absolutely. 37:49 Julie Woon Thanks for tuning in to the why My Health podcast. We hope you're leaving inspired and informed. 37:54 Melissa Schenkman Be sure to follow us on your favorite podcast platform so you never miss an episode and share why My Health with your friends. 38:00 Julie Woon Have a story to share or a question for us? Connect with us @YMIHealth on social media or visit our website at ymyhealth. Com. 38:08 Melissa Schenkman Until next time, remember, your health journey starts with the right information. 38:15 Emily Stay healthy.