Latest / 100 Stories: The Narrative Intelligence Project / Courtney Townley: When Knowing Isn’t Enough | 100 Stories #9

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Courtney Townley: When Knowing Isn’t Enough | 100 Stories #9 · 100 Stories: The Narrative Intelligence Project

• Paige Williams: Welcome to 100 Stories, the Narrative Intelligence Project. I'm Paige Williams. Ride along with me as I build the emerging field of narrative intelligence. I'm learning from 100 thinkers, creators, researchers, leaders, coaches. Together we're exploring a question at the center of how we become who we are. How malleable are the stories that we live by? And what does it take to change one? Across these conversations, we're examining the stories we inherit, the stories that become identity, and the human capacities that allow us to recognize, question, revise, and live beyond. Them. What I learned through this series will help shape the field of narrative intelligence in the foundational book that I'm writing. This is 100 Stories. Today I'm speaking with Courtney Townley, who teaches midlife women self-leadership through the lens of health and wellness. I invited Courtney to 100 Stories because I have so much to learn from her, vast experience of coaching thousands of women in health and self-leadership, and what she has observed about what it really takes to actually create transformative change in a woman's life. And so thank you, Courtney, for being here. Courtney: my gosh, thanks for having me. I am so excited to be here. Paige Williams: Excited about this conversation. Okay, to begin with, what story do you tell yourself or others about one of the most defining or transformative moments of your life? And has that story changed over time? Courtney: I was chewing on this before the interview, and hands down, it's becoming a mother. Because my life was so radically different before becoming a mother. And I really had put all of my stock in the health and wellness conversation in how I looked, and it was all physiological, and that's how I taught all of my clients. And then I became a mom. And I always say someone when Waltz into motherhood and I tsunamied into motherhood, like I was not graceful at all. I had no idea what I was doing. I felt like my everything had been obliterated overnight. My identity as I knew it, my free time, my sense of self, my marriage was imploding. Like I I rumbled so hard when I became a mother. And when people came over to see the baby, right, the comment that I got over. And over again was how fast I lost the baby weight. And I was pissed because I knew internally how much I was struggling mentally, emotionally, in my relationships. And the only thing people wanted to talk about was my baby weight. And it's, I think the reason that that moment was so pivotal for me, and it was kind of a moment in time, right? It wasn't like one specific person coming to my house, it was just the repeated commentary. And I also was at a point in my career where I had been deep in the throes of fat loss. Like that's what I was teaching for a decade. And I helped a lot of people around the world lose a lot of weight. But I also saw this really curious pattern emerging, which was people would work so hard for 12, 18 months, maybe two years to create this physical transformation only to start backsliding. Back to where they begin, right? Once they reach the goal, they started back the slipper but back down the slippery slope to where they started. And that just fascinated me. So I was getting this front row seat to hang on a second. There's something we're missing in health and well-being, like this conversation, because people can't sustain their results. What's that about? So I was already kind of having this reckoning with myself that I was missing some really crucial pieces. And then I think that that commentary that I was getting as a new mother about everyone being hyper-focused on my weight, but not being hyper-focused on my actual health, it just shifted everything for me. Like when I finally went back. I think I was back in sort of the fat loss world for maybe another 18 months before I completely pivoted because I knew I had outgrown the conversation. I knew that women deserved to have a bigger conversation. And it was a huge risk to pivot in that direction because I had no idea who was gonna come along for the ride or if this was even gonna be kind of like a sellable thing, a marketable thing. but I knew that I couldn't stay in the industry. If I stayed in that conversation. And so it did. It shifted everything for me. It's it shifted my own health because I became so much happier and healthier. it shifted everything about the depth of conversation that I have with my clientele. And I think the the more meaningful transformation that we actually create. So it was if I wasn't brave enough to do that, I can't even imagine where I would be. I definitely wouldn't be married. I don't think I would be healthy, because I would be denying myself the truth of what I knew that I was really struggling with. I just think life my life would not be what it is right now. Paige Williams: how That you say it's self-leadership through the lens of health and wellness because health and wellness. This fill in the blank. What is self-leadership? In that 18 months, when you were in the hallway between being a fat loss coach, perhaps Courtney: Mm-hmm. Paige Williams: is how we would say it, and being a self-leadership coach, I call that period the hallway. What happened in the hallway that Courtney: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Paige Williams: allowed you to transform into self-leadership? Courtney: Yeah. So self-leadership for me is really at the end of the day, learning to like who you are, what you do, and why you do what you do. It's not just following someone else's script for creating an outcome. It's like really this deep reckoning with yourself that this is why I do what I do. This is why I go to the gym every morning at 5 a.m. Now, some of those reasons are healthy, and for a lot of w women, those reasons aren't healthy. Right? Like at the end of the day, you're the only person who can answer that question. Like, do you like your reasons for why you do what you do? And are you at peace with what you're doing and why you're doing it? I can't answer that as the coach from the outside. I can ask you some really great questions to reveal that, but I don't know why you do what you do. So, self leadership, I think, really is having agency over your life and really having this deep understanding. That you are the only person who knows the truth of your life. What are you gonna do with that? Are you gonna hide from it? Or are you gonna own it? And obviously, I wanna help people own it because I have tasted what's on the other side of that ownership. And I think for me, the hallway was the reckoning, which I've, by the way, there's so many reckonings in life. It's not just that 18 months. I've had so many Paige Williams: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Courtney: since. But that was a big one because I had such an identity wrapped up in it, right? I was very successful. Doing what I was doing. Everyone knew me as a fat loss coach and as this, you know, big fitness person. and even still now, I think people have a hard time understanding how I'm in the world of health and well-being without teaching diet scripts and fitness protocols, which blows my mind because it just shows like how minimized this conversation has become. That we can't even imagine health as something bigger. So there, the, the, the hallway for me was a reckoning. It was radical honesty. It was, Paige Williams: Mm. Courtney: it was knowing that I don't have to be brave here. I could stay in this career. I could keep making money. I can keep doing the thing. It would be easy. But I also know easy, I knew easy was gonna kill me. Like in on a soul level, it was gonna kill me. And I'm not a person who has high tolerance for being uncomfortable with internal friction. Like some people can live with it, a heavy load of it for a long time. I'm not one of those people. Like I get some internal friction and I might rumble it with it for 18 months, maybe a few years, but then something's gotta give. Like something has to change because I I know that I can't keep living in that space that's causing the friction. And so. Yeah, I think it was a pivotal moment personally, but but also, like I said before, just in every dimension of my life, my career, my relationships. I think it it helped me to trust myself more that that the next time this happens, because that's life, it keeps happening, right? Where we get this invitation to keep evolving. And to me now it's more exciting than it is terrifying. Because I've said yes to the invitation enough times where I'm like. I kinda dig what's on the other side of that. But I know I wouldn't dig s living in stagnation, which is where if I had stayed in the fat loss realm, I would be. Paige Williams: What it that changed the story for you? Of this is what I was doing. I had a baby. Everyone commented on how I lost the weight quickly, and now I'm pissed. I'm angry. I'm frustrated. Courtney: Mm, mhm, mhm, mhm. Paige Williams: What was the friction? What was the shift into this new narrative or the potential to develop this new narrative and write a book about it? Courtney: Mm-hmm. I I think for me it was, it was just, it was kind of an eye-opening experience that health is not what I thought it was. Because I know that the reason a lot of people hired me is because I was a fit-looking trainer. Right. But fitness and health are not synonymous. And people have a hard time wrapping their head around that. But I know a lot of very fit people who are some of the most dysfunctional humans I know. Because their relationships are a disaster, they don't like who they are, they use their sport for escapism, right? There's there's a lot behind fitness and being fit that isn't healthy. And again, this comes down to you know your reasons. You know your reasons for running 10 marathons a year. Do you like them? If you like them, more power to ya. But if you don't, I highly recommend you do the work of lifting the rug and looking what's underneath. Because when I did that, when I cause I I I had this very big awakening that, my gosh, I am successful because I'm wrapped up in this ideology that health is a look. And all my clients are wrapped up in that too. And I didn't want to sell that anymore because I knew it wasn't true. Paige Williams: You saw something that you didn't know before and then once you saw it, you could not Courtney: Well, a hundred percent. Paige Williams: unsee it. Courtney: Totally. And I always say, like, I feel like the trajectory of my career initially was so much learning and then so much unlearning. Right? Because it was sold to me in a certain way. and also culture conditioned me in a certain way. My family conditioned me in a certain way. Like all those pieces kind of pushed me down a path. And I'm fortunate that I think I'm a very critical thinker. I think I I am somebody who likes to question things. I questi I I'm surprised I got to be as old as I was before I questioned what I had been bought, what I had bought into. but again, I think becoming a mom and having that experience and also watching the experience of all these fat loss clients that I had, it just all collided where I was like, well, it it's something different. Health is something different. And I want to explore what that different is. Paige Williams: One of the things you mentioned is that your relationships were imploding and then they changed and you're still married. So Courtney: Yeah. Paige Williams: how did shifting what happened when you s shifted from your old coaching into the new coaching and wellness with Courtney: Mm. Paige Williams: your relationships? What had to change in you in order to change those? Mm. Courtney: I had to become really vulnerable, which was also terrifying because I'd always been such a hustler, such a hard worker. I proved myself in every career or environment I had ever been in. Like I'm really good at that. But to the point of it destroying me. I always say that I work with a lot of women who are usually living on one end of the spectrum. They're using grit to the point of self-destruction, which was me. I'm awesome at that. And then I work with a lot of women who use grace to the point of stagnation. So they give themselves so much grace for everything, they never actually create momentum. And I definitely can relate to the grit side of things where it's like I push so hard for so long, I will sacrifice things I really don't want to be sacrificing to create an outcome, to prove something, to achieve a level of success that I haven't even defined for myself. Right. It just kind of was someone else's definition of success. So I think in my relationships, especially with my husband, like really owning that I can't do it all, like something has to give. I can't be a mom and I can't run this business and I can't be available to everybody at all times. that was something that I think kind of shocked both of us because I'd never really asked for help. I'd never asked for personal time. I'd never asked to travel alone, right? Like I'd never, I shouldn't even say asked, but you know, given myself that permission. I'd never given myself permission for those things. and so I think it allowed my husband to love me better because I could receive better. I wasn't giving him a chance to love me because he kept like wanting to help and like, you know, trying to like insert himself in all these ways, but I was just The Almighty Courtney, I was gonna do it all myself. And I think that again, the the more responsibilities we build throughout our lifetime, I and this is why I have such a heart for midlife women, we I think we get to a point where we run out of capacity. And we have two choices. We can keep taking things on and implode eventually, or we start letting some things go or handing things back to people and saying this was never mine. Here you go. and so I think for that it just made me and it made me just so much more pleasant to be around because I wasn't getting up at four o'clock in the morning and I wasn't training twice a day, and I wasn't taking on 12 clients a day. And I mean, that was a ver that was over years. It took me a decade to really get myself out of that lifestyle of of feeling that every moment of every day had be. productive and effective and you know have I had to have something to show for it. And yeah, it's it's wild to be where I am now because I I just don't look at life that way at all. I don't look at my worth that way. You know, it's it's and I can see it so clearly in other women. That's the real thing, right? I work with so many high achieving women. And bird's eye view, which I f they're they're they're like the on the ground in their life, so they can't really see it as well. But here I have this perspective and it's like, I totally get you. Been there, done that, have the t shirt. You don't want it. Yeah. Paige Williams: I love your what you said about grit and grace. And I think I told you the first time I met you, like I thought of getting grit and grace tattooed on my arm. And I didn't. I was running a tech company at the time. And I was like, this is taking grit and this is taking grace. But what I loved about how you just explained grit and grace was almost extremities and the and in the middle. Courtney: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. It's all Paige Williams: is where I would imagine is the idealism of where to live. How have you Courtney: It and and it I think like Paige Williams: come to learn to live in the center and how do you teach your clients and self-leadership to live in the center between those two? Courtney: Yeah. So the space between grace and grit, like that is my mission, is like helping every woman to find that sweet spot for herself. And it is a hundred percent the both and conversation. Life is both and. You're gonna feel pissed and you're gonna be elated. Sometimes at the same time, right? I mean, in the same day, we can go through every human emotion. we can love our spouse and also want time away from them. Like, life is just that. both and space, but we don't like to admit that. We like it to be one way or the other. I think that's a human brain thing. I think it probably has to do with security and certainty. So safety. But my sweet spot is not your sweet spot. Paige Williams: Mm. Courtney: And I think this is where a lot of coaching can go very wrong. Is I think for when I was initially getting into coaching and beyond just like diet and exercise coaching and really getting into lifestyle coaching and thought work and all the things, I think a lot of people came to work with me wanting someone to follow, like wanting the plan, wanting the script. Like people were still looking for that. And It became so clear to me so quickly that your life is so radically different from mine. Like I don't people have different histories. We have different sets of responsibilities. We have different likes and dislikes. For me to give you a script based on what worked for me, it's going to be like the 18-month fat law school. You can follow the instructions. It might work for you for a while. And then your inner toddler is gonna come out. And you are going to start backsliding right back to this place because it was never on your terms. It was my terms. And that that I think is it's kind of disappointing for people to hear that sometimes because we just want the savior. Right? We just want that person who knows. And here's the thing I know a lot. I know a lot about exercise, I know a lot about, you know, just Behavior change science, I know a lot that can help you along the way, but I cannot make your decisions for you. I can work with you for an hour, but the other 23 hours of the day is where the goal is the gold is forged, right? That's where you're gonna do your best work. And I'm not gonna be with you. So how do I teach you how to coach yourself? Like that's the work that I'm interested in. I'm interested in helping you to become the coach. And so I can walk alongside of you long enough to help you do that. But there comes a point where my goal is to talk myself out of a job, to teach my way out of a job. If you need me for the next forty years, I have not done my job. Doesn't mean you might not come back once in a while, right? We need tune ups, we need like new tools and things, great. But if to to be with me every week for the rest of your life, that makes no sense. Not if I've taught you self leadership skills. Paige Williams: What do you think is the primary reason that when you're coaching a woman and she has that aha moment like you had, Courtney: Mm-hmm. Paige Williams: and she's like, this is the key, this is how I can coach myself, what does it take for her to capture that moment and to actually begin a new form of grit or grace? Change. Courtney: Can I cuss on your show? Paige Williams: Yeah. Courtney: It's the shit moment. Always. It's the it's asking pointed questions for a woman to reveal herself to herself where she has that moment she's le where she's has that, again, it's just that really stark awakening and kind of reckoning where she's like, shit, this is the problem. Right? So for some women, it is their marriage. For some women, it is their job. For some women, it's pivoting within their career into something that terrifies them. And I think that we are really good when we have the shit moment. We're good at either hiding from the recognition, like, okay, I know that's where the work is, but it's way too terrifying and way too big. So I'm just gonna make myself so busy with other things that I never have time for that. Or I'm just not gonna, you know, I'm not going to have those conversations that need to be had, or I'm not gonna just do the work that that's inviting me into. I'm gonna avoid it all in some way. I call it a hiding habit. We we're awesome at hiding habits. Or, and hopefully eventually you get to the place. Where you know, kind of like I did, that internal friction, I call it integrity pain, that internal friction, the integrity pain is so intense, you know that it will be a slow death to live there. And so you don't really have a choice. It's kind of like a like a mountain lion chasing you and you're standing at the edge of the cliff. Like you can either get eaten by the lion or you can jump and just hope that you can grab onto something on the way down. Right. And I think that that is the shit moment. It's like, are you gonna jump? Are you gonna say yes to this invitation? Or are you just gonna act like you didn't see it and we're just gonna shove it under the rug? I always say it's like my son, how he cleans his room. He doesn't really clean, he just shoves things under the bed, into the closet, in the drawers. and we have found some amazing things in his room. but that's not cleaning. That's not awareness, right? That's not that's not owning your shit. And and and here's the other thing. I totally understand how terrifying some of that work is for all kinds of reasons. We just don't have capacity. We're afraid of losing relationships. We're afraid of failure. We don't want to feel hard things. We have horrific self-narrative. Like there's 10,000 reasons why we don't want to do that work. But there comes a point where you almost have to consciously say to yourself, I know where the work is and I'm choosing not to do it. It's almost like you're creating your own suffering and you're owning it. And that sucks. Like when you hear yourself say that, I am causing my own suffering and I'm also simultaneously refusing to change it. Like that's a big moment of like, really? Really? Are you gonna stay there? Like, how does that feel to say to yourself? And most people, once they hear themselves say it, they don't want to live there anymore. So then we just kind of start taking those really tiny steps into just leaning in a little bit. And the more you lean in, the more you realize it feels good, even though it's still scary. And you see possibility when you've kind of walked far enough down that path. And then there comes the point where you could never go back because you've tasted enough of the other side. Like for me. Once I crossed over into the conversation I really wanted to have in the wellness space, no, you could not pay me enough money to go back into the fat loss industry. Paige Williams: I always identify the problem, want to change the problem. Let's just jump Courtney: Yeah. Paige Williams: to the solution. I don't want to go through the middle part. Courtney: No. Paige Williams: I just want the ease of suffering because turns out I don't like bad feelings. Courtney: Weird. I have a mentor who called it the river of misery, right? Like we're the shit moment kind of puts us in the river of misery because we're on one bank, which is how we've been functioning for all these years. And we finally have this awakening, it's not working. And we've actually been creating a lot of suffering because of it. So we can see across the river to where we want to be, but to get there, we've got to swim. And the swimming is hard. Hard and long and arduous. And some people don't even know how to swim. So then we gotta learn how to swim before we can even get in the river, you know? And it's just like I love that analogy because it's like, yeah, if we are not willing to get in the river of misery, you're not willing to transform. And I'm not saying it has to be a miserable experience, but there is work ahead. And that's what the river is inviting you into. If you want to get to the other side, you've got to say yes to the work. Paige Williams: What have your rivers taught you? That in between time, the pain of getting to the other side, what did you learn from those moments? Courtney: I think one of the big, my big learning things right now, and I think this has been pervasive throughout my life, but I feel like I'm getting it in a way that I've never understood it before, is the power of the pause and not just a pause, like not just a, let me take a deep breath before I respond, although do that too. I'm talking about an extended pause. Like, I don't know what the answer is, and I'm gonna let myself marinate it on it this summer. Or for a month or for a week or at least for a few nights. not being in a rush to ease other people's discomfort. Your emergency is not my emergency when it comes to decision making. So if I wanna feel rooted in my answer and feel like I'm in integrity when I give you my answer, I'm gonna take all the time I need. And if that inconveniences you or makes you uncomfortable, that's your work, not mine. You know, and so I think that has has been a huge part of the river for me is learning patience, giving things more time and space, and not making it mean that I'm never gonna figure it out, or I'm never gonna come to a conclusion, or I'm never gonna be able to move my life forward. but that different things in my life just need different amounts of space and time to be sorted out. And the less I rush it. The more I like who I am in turn in that situation. You know, because I've I've been thoughtful, I've been intentional, I've been considerate. Paige Williams: I you and I are both in the river of misery, or perhaps we'll just call it the hallway with aging parents who are in Courtney: Ex my gosh, yes. Paige Williams: late stage of life. And you know, my mother got extremely ill in May and we thought she was gonna pass and she's still with us, but I was like, my god and you know, it's hard for me to admit this, but And vulnerability, I will. I was just like, can we just get to the end? Like, can we just rip the band-aid off so that I can start grieving and move on? And my spiritual advisor was like, don't skip to the end because you'll miss the beauty of the middle. The middle is the hard part that I don't want to walk through. But my God, what has happened in my mother's life and in my family's life between May and now? is amazing and I still feel anxious about her impending death and health, right? Courtney: Well there's the both and right there, right? Yeah. Paige Williams: But like I am getting a higher understanding of living by living through the middle of this pain and aging parents, man, it's no joke. How are you doing Courtney: It's neutral. Paige Williams: with it? Courtney: You know, it's interesting because I I was really angry and resentful for a while. And not, I mean, my dad's situation is really interesting in that he's been caretaking his wife for 30 years. So I've had a lot of anger around that because I feel like he sacrificed time with his kids. it she's always kind of been the reason for him not participating in our lives more fully. And then to see his health declining because of caring for her and the level of stress involved in 30 years of caretaking, it made me even more hostile, right? Like more just upset and angry about it. And this last time I just got back from a two-week trip and I I knew I couldn't do this again. I'd hit the brick wall. I had my shit moment. Like something has to give. I can't keep going and being angry and leaving feeling like I need a three-week vacation because I'm so tapped out. And so I reached out to my community and I asked for, you know, resources and somebody had recommended this book, The 36-hour day, because I do know that my dad is starting to show signs of dementia. So I I got the book from Amazon. It's like a 40-year-old book. But it's been, you know, there's been new revisions and it's through John Hopkins University. It's a pretty thick book, but I I I mean I voraciously read this thing. And I felt like I was reading the biography of my dad. And I closed the book. This was like literally 48 hours before I left. And I said, I'm the problem. Like, I keep expecting him to be different. But this is what it is. Right? And he didn't ask for this. He didn't like, no matter how we got here, we are here. So I can argue with reality. You're always gonna lose. Every time you argue with reality, you're gonna lose. And so I just decided to stop arguing with reality. And go there with the attitude that his brain no longer works the way that it used to. So I can't keep treating him as if it does. And it changed everything. Like I literally left this trip, feeling like we were closer than we've ever been. That he heard me in some really difficult conversations because of the way I was able to show up in those conversations. and I think it's all because I I got a f I I I think I got a much clearer picture on what he's wrestling with. And I just didn't understand it. It was my lack of understanding that was creating so much suffering for me because I'd never done this before, right? I'm just like, you're thrown in this river. And again, I'm I'm trying to learn how to swim in the river. And so the book helped me learn how to swim and realize that. I just I need to approach it differently. I need to think about it differently. I need to ask different questions. I need to be more creative in how I try to convince him to do certain things. and I felt like I went there with this bag load of tools that I hadn't had previously, and it was a total game changer. And I'm not saying, like you just said, it's not that it makes it easy. It's never gonna be easy. I'm grieving my dad every time I go. It's frustrating on so many levels. But Because I changed, the whole relationship dynamic changed. And it was so much better for all of us because he was less stressed, I was less stressed. Like it was just, it was really great. So that's me taking radical ownership of like having that moment of, hi, I'm the problem. It's me, right? Paige Williams: Yeah. Always say if you want to change the world, change yourself. Courtney: R al always. Yeah. I mean it's the only thing we can change. Paige Williams: Exactly. We have no control. Courtney: what a beautiful thing that we get to love these people through their own decisions as hard as it can be sometimes? Because and that's parenthood too, by the way, which you you know, it's like I'm not gonna yeah, I don't agree with every decision my son makes, but I can love him through his decisions. And if I want to maintain a healthy relationship, it doesn't mean it's always gonna get my stamp of approval. But I can kind of You know, it's it's almost like that the exercise of separating the behavior from the human, which some people hear that and they're like, you know, you're condo you're condoning all this like abusive, you know, behavior from people. I'm like, no, no, no, that's not at all what I'm saying. Cause you can love someone and still distance yourself from them, right? You can love someone and still have very strict boundaries. relationships are are such beautiful teachers, I think, on so many levels. for me, it's been as simple as what would love do here? As much as I'm angry at you right now for doing this or behaving this way or saying this thing, what would love do here? And sometimes love does really hard things. Love says, I need a minute. And I will circle back when I feel like I can have a conversation. Sometimes that's what love does. Or love says, I love you and I cannot have I cannot have contact with you for a while. But sometimes love is also like, okay, we're not gonna agree on this. And I still think you're amazing. And I still wish you would go get chemo, right? Like I can say that to you, but also not feel like my decision is the ultimatum. Paige Williams: So thinking about, you know, we learned so much from our parents, good and bad. And then here they are at the end of life. And my mom is still still being my greatest teacher. Courtney: You have a way of doing that. Paige Williams: So I have a question for you. Courtney: Yeah. Paige Williams: You said the twentieth time out of the ninth out of the twentieth changed. You had an aha moment. Courtney: Yes. Yes. Yep. Yep. Paige Williams: Does that change how often you go? Is that part of your aha? Okay. Courtney: I don't think so. in fact, I I probably like I've just committed to as much as he needs me, I will be there because that's my loving him through this part. Like, Paige Williams: No. Courtney: and I know that there is going to be a moment where I a lot of moments where I look back on this season of my life. And I want to be able to look back and say, I love how I showed up there. And Here's the thing, for me that means You will never regret the time that you have. so make it good because it will be something that you think about a lot when this season is over. And I know it's coming to an end, you know, and so I just I do. I I think my dad has always been kind of the distant father. my parents were divorced when I was very young, so I have no memory of my dad in the house. But he's always been my dad. He's always helped me through college. He's always checked in with me. He's always, you know, I know he loves me in the way that he knows how to love. and being able to beef there for him in this way when he has no one else. it's it's my way of loving him back, you know, and feeling like we had a relationship. Like I want to be able to say that we had a relationship. When when he passed and that that alone is a beautiful thing. Paige Williams: My mom is a very strong, formidable woman, right? And Courtney: Yeah. Yeah. Paige Williams: doesn't she's not very affectionate or Courtney: Touchy feely, yeah. Paige Williams: And when we were in the hospital in May, like I got to anoint you know, I got to like she asked me to rub her feet and put oil on her and love her love her physically. Like I never would have had that. And I didn't even know I needed it. But it was just beautiful. I don't know that I've ever felt needed by my parent until now. And that's been an interesting shift. Like, I need you. And I was like, I can't read your mind. You're gonna have to ask for me to come because you and I both live across the country from our families. Courtney: Yeah yeah yeah yeah Paige Williams: and she's like, I don't know that I know how to ask for help. She admitted that. For the first time to me in her life at 77. And that was just like amazing. So there's been all of these amazing moments in swimming across that river that if I had if she had just passed and we had ripped that band-aid off and she was gone, I wouldn't have gotten to experience as painful as they are. I'm always grateful for the hallway, grateful for the river. Where I Courtney: Yep, so it's so true. Paige Williams: learn everything. Courtney: It's so true. And it I think it is. It's so hard for our parents To admit that they need help. They they don't want to lean on us because we're their children Paige Williams: Yeah. Courtney: and all the things. And that's been something that I've really, you know, wrestled with with my dad. But again, because of how I showed up on this last trip, like he kind of let me in on how scared he is about what's happening with his brain and how he doesn't have anyone, you know, in terms of he has friends and he has lots of people in his home taking care of his wife, but he doesn't really have anybody. And for him to let me in on that level, it's like, yeah, he's human. He's my dad, but he's a human and he's scared and he's at the end of life. And how awesome that I can be there just to kind of walk alongside of him. And if I if that makes it a little bit easier, a hundred percent it's worth it for me to go as many times as I need to. Paige Williams: Yeah. Well, you know, you and I both work with midlife women and so many of us are in this boat. So I appreciate the time to just talk about that part of our life because I think a lot of our listeners will identify Growing up, what did you learn about discipline, which I heard you define as grit? And maybe that's not exactly right, but discipline, Courtney: No, yeah. Paige Williams: consistency, success, and what it meant to be good or capable, and how did that shift? Courtney: Yeah, so my I had a single mom growing up. I did have a stepfather come into the picture who's still in the picture. He's an amazing man, but kind of later. So I was with my mom alone with my brother. And my brother and I are so interesting because we have the same energy, we have the same drive kind of for life. But we channel it in very different ways. And my brother was always in trouble. You know, always in trouble. Or not doing well in school. Or just I don't know. He just always ruffled my mom's feathers. And so I was the child who was not gonna ruffle any feathers because I saw what it did to my mom, right? And I felt like I had to kind of make up for all of those challenges and all the things. I also grew up in the professional dance world. So everything was, everything was discipline, like extreme discipline. And I remember, I think it must have been I was probably out of college. And I just remember this season of like I don't know. I I was not gonna do so. I wasn't gonna go to dance class or something. And I just had this epiphany of like, my gosh. Like I have a choice in doing or not doing these things anymore. Like no one's gonna slap my hand for reaching in the cookie jar, right? No one's gonna hold me accountable to going to class or not going to class. Like it j and it would there's so much freedom in that for me, you know, of just recognizing that, I get to decide what I want to put my resources into now. Where I think the early half like the early part of my my well, my childhood and my young adulthood, I felt like it was so much I was living up to everyone else's expectations. And I was really good at it. And I think it's taken me almost 50 years to outgrow it. You know, Paige Williams: Yeah, yeah. Courtney: where it's like D I was disciplined to the point of destruction. And it's funny because the book was, I had someone ask me, well, lots of people have asked me over the past year, you know, like, how did you write the book? And, you know, what was your discipline? And, you know, how did you get your butt in the chair? And I'm like, you know what? I knew very early on that this book would never get written if it came from discipline. Because for me it was about devotion. It was something that I cared so much about. It was something that I had so much heart for. I'd been teaching it for a decade. I knew that this book needed to be written regardless of what was on the other side. It wasn't about discipline. Because discipline, I think for a lot of us, can feel like it's almost forced power. Like I have to force myself to sit in the chair. I have to force myself to do the thing because of getting the benefit on the other side. And I don't want to live my life that way anymore. I want to figure out the things that light me up, turn me on. And I wanna pursue those things. So I don't need that level of discipline. Like I wanna show up because I genuinely wanna be spending my time this way. And that just feels like something so radically different to do it from a space of devotion versus discipline. and for some people that's just semantics, but for me, it's like I I genuinely feel something different when I'm moving from a place of just being devoted. Like I'm so devoted to my kid and my dog and my husband. And I show up even on hard days, not because I'm disciplined, but because I'm devoted to these things. And I really genuinely care about making them work. Paige Williams: I love that distinction. That's beautiful. Thank you for naming that for us. Courtney: Yeah. I it's a it was a big one. It's been a big one for me. yeah. Paige Williams: It is a big one. Yeah. Courtney: Because I we hear so much about discipline and especially in the health and wellness space. And I Paige Williams: Yeah. Courtney: just think it does a lot of damage for people because they feel like, discipline means doing the same thing over and over every day, and no matter how I feel. And even consistency, I don't teach doing the same thing every day. I teach consistent self-honoring, which is what does self-care look like today, given what life looks like today? Because if you only slept four hours last night and you've got a ton of work stress and you're Or have a tough relationship problem you're dealing with, it probably doesn't look like a 4 a.m. boot camp class. I could be wrong. Maybe that is what self-care looks like for you today. But if you're being radically honest, maybe it looks like sleeping in a little bit and taking a walk with a friend at lunch so you can talk some things out. I don't know, just an idea. But consistent self-honoring is very different than like consistent exercise or consistent, like eating consistently a certain way. Paige Williams: girl, you work with a wan you you I'm more on the grace side. I'm like, Courtney: No. Paige Williams: how how do you how do you not sleep that much? How do you go to the gym? You know, like totally different. You're Courtney: Yeah. Yeah. Paige Williams: working on that grit side of leadership. I love it with women who are like go getters. Courtney: Well, and I think in the in my in my the section of my life, the seasons of my life where I was so regimented, if you really again you look at why what I did and why I did it, it wasn't for my health. It was for earning my worth. It was for proving something, it was for living up to other people's standards. It had nothing to do with me. It had everything to do with the way I was conditioned and what my self-narrative was and the story about my life and what actually equated success. I'll never I share this a lot, but I I worked with a therapist years ago. and we were working a lot on my dynamics in my marriage, and we were talking about finances. And she said to me, Well, what's enough? And I was like, I don't know. Like, is it ever enough? And she goes, if you live your life that way, Courtney, it will never be enough. If you don't define for yourself what enough is, you are gonna wrestle with this the rest of your life. And I I've seen this to be true so much with what is health? What is success? If you don't define these things for yourself, how do you even know what you're pursuing? Right? You're just gonna keep going without ever feeling successful because you've never been clear with yourself. About what these things even mean to you. And so that that's been huge for me, is like what health means to me at this stage of my life. What does success mean to me at this stage of my life? What is enough with finances, with a thousand other things? And knowing what my own definition is, I either realize how far I am from it or how at peace I am with it. Regardless, I know where my work is, and that's a beautiful thing. Paige Williams: Yeah. When you're coaching women, all the thousands of women you've coached, and you see those who rec have recognition, they were like, here's what I'm doing. I'm catching myself. I'm doing behavior performance because of self-worth. And so I'm doing 10 million things that I shouldn't necessarily have to be doing and it's just to prove my worth. Like they can see the whole picture, but they can't seem to actually change their behavior. and do something different and selected like let some things go because their value and their self-worth is not attached to the doing. What is the difference between that woman who struggles with actually like seeing it and changing and the woman who sees it and does make the change? And yeah. Courtney: Yeah, I think skill sets. First, that's all it is. It's just skill sets that the woman who is doing the work. In a way that's moving her life forward, is able to be with hard emotions. She's not afraid of difficult emotions, like the woman who's is is immobilized. She isn't wrapped up in an old identity. She realizes that she is responsible for her own standards for her life because we've had enough of those conversations. She knows how to change her self-narrative, right? Like it's all skill sets. And skill sets, the great thing about them is they're totally teachable. Like we can learn new skills. For the rest of our life, at any age, any stage. And when women look at it through that lens, there's nothing wrong with you. Because there isn't. But women love to believe that, right? We love to believe that, well, I'm a unique unicorn and something is really wrong with me. No, what if you just were didn't have a practice? You just didn't have the skill set. You're just missing an ingredient. That it's so solvable. And so that that is, I think, why I'm I'm so passionate about what I teach now is because I think I can Show you how to shop for the ingredient. I can teach you the lesson, you know, or I can teach you the skill set. Now, teaching the skill set and actually practicing it are two very different things. So that's something I talk a lot about, right, with my clients that I can teach this to you. That is not gonna change your life. But you using it the next time you're in the situation, and here's the thing: the first time you use it, you're like, maybe it helped. The second time, you're like, wow, it really helped. The third time you forget to use it, right? So it's like it's like this weird awkward dance. That's just what practice is. Like nobody practices because they expect to be perfect all the time. We practice because we want to get better at the skill. And that's where I think all of the magic happens is our willingness to practice. And so I have had those conversations sometimes where I do have to ask a client, like, do you think you're coachable? Like, do you that's just an honest question? Because I don't see the willingness to practice. There's so much resistance to answer hard questions. There's a lot of hiding habits. There's a lot of denial. And you know what? There's no judgment. But I also don't want to waste your time or money or mine. And so let's just have that conversation. Are you coachable? And sometimes people just aren't, they're not in that space. Doesn't mean they never will be. But right now, it's just not a season for coaching. Like you're not in enough pain to make the pivot and you'll get there. You'll get there. Paige Williams: So again, you might pick up the skill set if you're in enough discomfort. Courtney: I think, I think when you're in enough discomfort, you're you're almost you're you're looking for the skill set, right? You're looking for the relief. That's Paige Williams: Mm. Mm-hmm. Courtney: why in marketing, like one of the things they teach you in marketing, right, is like speak to the pain point because people want relief. Paige Williams: Right. Courtney: And and there's a lot of truth to that. That I think when someone is in enough pain and they have lived with that internal grinding long enough, they're so ready for the help because they know what it's costing them to not get. But where that point is, it like I I wish I could I wish I could just make it happen for everybody to have you arrive in that point. Paige Williams: Wait, perfect. Courtney: But I think sometimes the best thing a coach can do is just, you know, just be honest that I don't know that you're ready for this, you Paige Williams: Yeah, yeah. Courtney: know? Paige Williams: What are some of the skill sets you teach once someone really is willing to pick it up? Courtney: Yeah. So I mean, there's there's four really s I think strong buckets of skills that I teach. number one is it's 101 is self-awareness. Like, how are you staying awake to your life and your behavior? Paige Williams: Mm. Courtney: Because most women that I know are so busy and so consumed by other people's stuff, they aren't making time to be with themselves and ask good questions. And that's a problem, right? So Like, what are you doing to stay awake? Do you pay attention to behavior? Are you in touch with your emotions? Like, are you journaling? Like, there's a thousand ways that that you know you could approach that. But awareness is one-on-one because I always say healing happens in the light. Like you'll never heal if you don't expose. And so what's your exposure practice? Right? And I don't need to read your journal. I just want to know that you have one, you know, or that you're. Talking to somebody, because that's what coaching can do, right? Coaching can be exposure work. and then I teach a lot of capacity work, like I would say that's a bucket, which largely falls into organizational skills. You know, we hear a lot about time management, but at midlife, I'm more interested in the energy management conversation because women have a limited amount of energy and a 20-mile-long to-do list. That's not realistic. So, how can we actually improve your capacity to do the work that your life is calling you into? Well, we probably probably need to set some boundaries. We probably need to organize you in a way that it's an easy yes to do the hard thing because it's one thing to say I want to change, but tomorrow comes and you've done nothing to set yourself up for success. and then I would say where I do the large majority of my coaching is in the practice of follow-through, which is It always boils down to the the same things, which is nervous system regulation, like letting your nervous system oscillate through the day, because most women live in this state of chronic escalating intensity of their day. That's not how the nervous system is meant to work. The nervous system needs to go through periods of effort and periods of recovery, periods of effort, periods of recovery. And a lot of women convince themselves that if they let themselves live that way, they won't be as productive. They won't be successful, but actually the opposite is true. We become more consistent because we're more regulated. a lot of emotional agility, like learning how to be with emotions that are typically we want to avoid. How are you in the presence of stress, of fear, of uncertainty? Are you always reaching for alcohol? Are you always eating your emotions? Like these are things that we have to pay attention to. And then parenting your brain. Which is the self-narrative work, right? It's the what are the stories that you're telling yourself about your situation, about your life, about yourself that is preventing you from following through with this thing. And you're doing one of two things. You're talking yourself into the work or you're talking yourself out of it. And most people I work with are awesome at talking themselves out of it. Because again, we're detached to the story that we can't do it for some reason. But there's always reasons why you can, why you should, why you must. And if we could just argue for a little bit of that, you're gonna coach yourself into it because that's how it works. and then the last bucket of practices I work a lot on are is just the practice of realignment because success or forward momentum is not linear. You know, it it's often like this meandering path, you know, and it's kind of like you take that one step forward and like five steps back. That's normal. And people who are successful, they get misaligned all the time. They just happen to get realigned quicker. And they don't stay lost in the woods for months or years at a time. And so how how how can we get you realigned quicker the next time life throws you a curveball? Because there's curveballs coming. Probably today, right? You'll probably get at least one curveball today. You planned to do something and life had other plans in store. So now what? Like how are you gonna handle the aftermath? Are you gonna pull over on the side of the road and pitch a fit for six months? Or are you just gonna realign? I hope it's the latter. And there's lots of ways that we can help you do that. So those are kind of the buckets of practice that I teach in. Paige Williams: Thank you. Courtney: Yeah. Paige Williams: When someone falls out of consistency What actually helps them return without turning the laps into another story of failure? Courtney: I always call it like the the power statement, the why, the compelling reason, the devotion, like what is the thing? Why are you really doing this? Right. So when women used to come to me for weight loss as I was pivoting into my self-leadership work, I started asking them the question, Well, why do you want to lose weight? Well, because I want to look better. Okay, great. Why do you want to look better? Well, because I'm more confident when I'm smaller, like I just feel more confident in my life. Okay, well, what does confidence give you? Like why do you want to be more confident? Well, because I want to live my life bigger. Well why? Well because when I live life bigger, I feel like I have less regret. Okay, now we're getting somewhere. Right? So it's not about the weight loss. It's about getting this one shot at life and you want to make the most out of it. That's compelling. Right? Losing 20 pounds, not compelling. And so I think I think helping people to like reveal their own reasons for the pursuit is a really great way to help them realign. And also a great way to help them recognize what they've outgrown. Cause you can keep chasing weight loss, and sometimes it's just like it's not even relevant to the season of your life. Or maybe you worked, I don't know, worked in a certain career in a certain way, and you're just realizing. That's kind of chipping away at your soul because you've lost heart for it. Okay. Well, it doesn't mean that we should just keep forcing that. Maybe we need to pivot into something else. That's a possibility. So I think it's it's helping people to see like, do you really need to realign with this because you have really deep reasons for pursuing it? Or have you outgrown it? Paige Williams: Beautiful. I think about creative work all the time as a pathway to healing. It is healing for me. How did writing your book change you? Courtney: I think in so many ways. I mean, I truly think that it's the first thing I've ever created besides my child where I truly was completely and still am a hundred percent unattached to the outcome. Paige Williams: Mm. Courtney: Like it it was such a labor of love. Like it was a a message that needed to come through me. I truly, I know I feel like that sounds cliche because probably a lot of people say that, but I I just truly feel like it needed to be created for the sake of creation. And because I had something to say. and I have never once wished that I had written it differently. I have never once been caught up in like you know, wanting it like, I don't know, like leading to something else on the other side, like whatever comes out of it is what's meant to come out of it. But just the act of creating it, and I feel like I'm the person who had to create it because it was my life story in a book that also happened to be about health and wellness that I think a lot of women could benefit from. but that's that is I don't I've never had that experience with anything else. You know, it was always for something. I needed to earn a living. I needed to achieve a certain recognition or accolade, or there was something I was trying to get on the other side. And that was not at all true of this book. It was just a it was like a a gift. Like I just needed to create it for it to exist. That's it. Paige Williams: What do you believe in that gave you that sense of inspiration? Does it come from within? Does it come from where did that come from? Knowing, the knowing that you had a message that people needed to hear and your job of obedience and devotion was Courtney: Yeah. Paige Williams: to follow the thread and write the book. Where did that come from for you? Courtney: Mm-hmm. I think it's been a practice of following the breadcrumbs like my whole life. I mean, I, you know, if you if you'd asked me at 18 what my life trajectory was gonna be, it would not have been this. I mean, I couldn't have ever dreamed this up. You know, I couldn't have thought in this way because I didn't even know that this was a career path. But I think I've always had a level of trust in my life. And I think it comes from dancing and just having to rely on myself at a young age and practicing a lot throughout my lifetime of having my own back. And that has served me throughout my life that I don't know what's next. And I'm totally okay with it. Because life has always shown me what is next. and again, that goes back to the power of the pause too, because I think sometimes I have to really remind myself just to be patient that I'm not in such a hurry to make the next thing happen. but I remember moving to cities where I knew nobody and just trusting that if I put it out there that I needed a place to live or I needed a job, I would find and I always did, you know? And so I collected enough evidence that I do, I think that's what self-trust allows you ultimately, is that I just trust that this needs to be written. I trust that I can write it in a way that, you know, people understand. And I also trust that whatever is supposed to be born on the other side of it is going to emerge and that's enough. Paige Williams: Beautiful. Okay. Courtney: Yeah, it's it's it's been a it was a really great experience writing my book. Paige Williams: That's awesome. When you hear the phrase narrative intelligence, what does it mean to you? And if you were defining it, how would you define it? Courtney: I think narrative intelligence is recognizing that you're you're the author. Right? So what story are you writing? And is it the story, like is it a story that you want to be writing? Or are you doing it because you're writing it a certain way because you feel like it would make someone else happy? Your parents, your boss, whoever. But I really think it's it's it's taking that ownership of the authorship of your life and writing it in a way that gets you straight with you. You know, and I've always believed that like at the end of the day, health to me is really about living as an authentic and fully expressed human, whatever that means for you. Because what it means for everyone is so radically different. and That is brave work. I don't care who you are. I don't care what life has handed you. Being authentic and fully expressed is always brave work. And if you do not learn how to parent your brain or narrate your story or take authorship of your life, not only will you never get to taste what that feels like, but you rob the world of experiencing that expression, which will never exist again, like in this form. And so to me it's just, it's such a it's it's it's like like the alphabet. We all had to learn the alphabet in order to learn how to put a word together and then a sentence and then my gosh, wrote a book, right? I couldn't have done that if I didn't learn the alphabet. And to me, that's what narrative work is. It's it's it's fundamental as the alphabet. When you have it, it makes everything else possible. So yeah. Paige Williams: What a delicious, enlightening, joyful hour. Thank you, Courtney. Courtney: so fun. Thank you. Yeah, I'm so glad you invited me. And yeah, great questions, great work. Paige Williams: I just loved it. Here's what I'm taking from this conversation about narrative intelligence. Courtney helped me see more clearly that recognizing the story is not the same as changing your life. Insight may be the beginning, but transformation asks more of us. Radical ownership, the willingness to stay with discomfort, new skills, repeated practice, and the patience to keep realigning when we fall back into old patterns. One idea I'm especially taking with me is that behavior can help create the new story. We may not fully believe something different about ourselves until we begin acting differently, and accumulating evidence that another way of living is actually possible. I loved Courtney's distinction between discipline and devotion. Maybe lasting change is not about forcing ourselves to become someone new. Maybe it is about becoming clear enough about what matters that we are willing to keep returning to it. And now I want to invite you into this inquiry. What's your NQ? Take the Narrative Quotiment at storykeys.co. And be sure to subscribe to 100 Stories, the Narrative Intelligence Project. You can listen to it on podcasts and rate and review and tell your friends, and also on YouTube. Courtney, thank you for this very enlightening episode.