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The Mistake Men Keep Making (with Dr. Daniel Ellenberg) · Evolutionary Men

0:00
Jason Lange: All right, and welcome back, everybody.
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I am very excited today to be joined by Dr.
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Daniel Ellenberg.
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And I want to set this one up for you because Daniel has been working with men for
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decades.
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Like long before the headlines about men and loneliness, long before men's work had
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podcasts, Daniel was in the room with men doing the work.
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So just to give you a sense of who this man is, when the American Psychological
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association needed someone to lead its Society for the Psychology of Men and
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Masculinities, they chose Daniel, and he served as its presidents president.
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And in 2024, that same society of his peers named him practitioner of the year.
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That's the field itself saying, this is a man who knows how to work with men.
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He's also
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the founder of the Men and Boys Compassion Coalition and is the co creator of
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Strength with Heart men's groups and workshops.
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And even more important than that, here's why I really wanted Daniel here today.
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Many of us men, myself included, never had an elder.
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And even fewer of us ever had a man in our lives who spent a lifetime
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learning how men actually heal and grow and who could pass that down to us.
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So today, I'm very excited that we get to sit down and spend some time with someone
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who's done just that.
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Good morning.
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Daniel Ellenberg: Good morning, Jason.
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Good to be with you.
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Jason Lange: Yeah, I'm so, so excited to get here with you and be here with you.
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And I had the pleasure of meeting you in person recently at a men's conference and
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seeing you speak and was just immediately drawn to you and your transmission.
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And then turns out you've been working with a close friend of mine to bring even
1:49
more men's work into the world.
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Keith Martin-Smith, who I had on a couple of months ago.
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And you guys have a really cool offering you're going to launch soon that I
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certainly want to
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really get into and talk about here.
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But, you know, I'm really curious.
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Just kind of.
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One of the things
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I'm very excited to talk to you about, Daniel, is the long view.
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Right, because you've been in this field, like I said, for a long time and gotten to
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see kind of where did it all start
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and where is it landing?
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And I'm just curious, just off the top of your head, what shifts have you seen since
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you first stepped into this work?
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Daniel Ellenberg: Well, for starters, more interest.
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I was an early adapter, and I actually, I'm 72 now, so
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I.
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I guess I have become an elder.
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It's.
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It's a weird thing, okay.
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If you don't die, you Just keep getting older.
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I used to be the youngest guy actually involved with this stuff.
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I started doing men's something with it when I was 26.
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So it was like 46 years ago.
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And it got involved in it.
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Leaderless men's group back then
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there were some conferences including Bly's Things and I started doing some of the
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mythopoetic work.
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Some ambivalence about Bly himself and that's a whole other story.
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But I've been, I've been on the block and I was actually
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connected with a bunch of guys who were doing men's work.
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As I said back in the day, one never knows when the day was because it's been.
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It says it was, you know.
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But we formed a group called Richard, we called the Guild and has been going for 38
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years at this point.
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So it's a leaderless men's group.
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Guys who are all doing men's work in the Bay Area, San Francisco
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in the 80s.
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So you know, I've seen just an increasing interest,
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you know, in the recognition that oh, men have feelings.
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I remember I was on the, I was on a, I was gonna call it a podcast, but they weren't
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podcasts in radio show when I was
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30,
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actually 29, I think I was so.
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And it was called the Gentle, the Joy of Brotherhood.
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Right.
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And this guy asked me this question, he said some people say that men don't have
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feelings.
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Do men have feelings?
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And I just had to resist making a sarcastic comment,
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you know, being from New Jersey.
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And also just kind of restrained myself, shocked that I was able to.
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And I said yes,
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men have feelings. I do believe.
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But I think there's an increasing recognition over the years that you know, people
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too, they're not just androids, they're not just war machines, they're not just
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warriors, they're not just occupational
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hearts that be and feel.
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And so there's, there's been growing movement.
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It's.
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It's, you know, like evolution.
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It's not a straight line.
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More interest, a lot also a lot more negativity to I was in general
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last couple decades, you know, in particular and you know, to those of us
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like you.
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And I know for me you're trying to find that mid path where black women support
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women.
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Gender fluid people only.
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We also need to recognize that
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boys and men have a lot of difficulties and they're not simply just privileged as
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some might say.
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What's your problem?
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Jason Lange: Yeah, and
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what, you know, what first got you to step into a room or step into the leaders
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group or, or turn towards some kind of men's work in your life.
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Even back then when, you know, you
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Daniel Ellenberg: were 26,
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accidentally,
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you know, I was looking for.
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I was in graduate school in psychology at the time.
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I was looking for some type of group.
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And I've heard it being some leaderless men's group.
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And because not the least natural.
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I was just talking about.
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And I got involved with obviously youngest guy in there.
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And it was interesting.
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Good in some ways, not so good in other ways.
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And I thought this group could be a lot better with a really good facility.
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And that's actually what got me to start facilitating men's groups.
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Jason Lange: Yeah, super cool.
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And it just strikes me, even then and certainly now, what do you find makes a good
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facilitator in terms of working
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with men?
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Daniel Ellenberg: I think it's.
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It's the
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willingness and the ability
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to
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look both within
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and really pay attention to your own experience as a person, as a man, as
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a facilitator, and also have a wide angle for the group and the people in
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the group, as well as a kind of compassion
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for
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the joys and sorrows that each man carries.
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And to be, you know, focused on helping to bring those out.
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I don't quote the Bible.
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I heard this one great point, Paul,
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that was like, if you bring forth what is within you, what you bring forth will save
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you.
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If you do not bring forth what is within you, what you do not
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destroy you.
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And I.
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I think that's really.
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It's a powerful quote
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because in some level, we all have different parts of ourselves that want to be
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seen, want to be in relationship.
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We get messages that say
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for that time to.
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Don't say that you'd be ashamed.
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If you do show weakness, show vulnerability.
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And ironically, it is that willingness to be seen
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to be intimate
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in the sense of the phonetic of intimacy, into-me-see.
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That ability, willingness to be.
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To be seen.
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That's healing.
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And as a facilitator, you want to help people kind of come out.
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And I know that like coming out has been a term for being a gay man.
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I thought it's.
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But it's fine.
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It's used, but I think it's too narrow because all of us have our own process
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that we would.
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Gay night gay as well.
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We have our own
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facilitated a green
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encourage that rather than shame that which we don't see.
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Jason Lange: I love that I'm just coming off a retreat I led and you're just putting words to,
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you know, what is honestly the most joyful part for me is when, you know, I think
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how I was Kind of digesting it these last days is, yeah, when I see a man's spirit,
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like, fully come through in that kind of radically vulnerable way of.
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The masks kind of drop, and there's, you know, sometimes like a.
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An innocence or a boyfulness, not.
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Not necessarily a child, but like something that was
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not okay for a long time.
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Right.
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That fills a man.
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Like, literally fills a man out.
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It's so great when I get to see it.
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Like, energy coming through the eyes, face brightens.
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And, you know, I'm curious.
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You've worked with.
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You know, I probably.
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You probably can't even count.
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I don't even know how many men at this point.
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What are some of the things you've seen over the years?
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You know, just at the kind of
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broad level, like that men do have a challenge bringing forward, bringing
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out from that kind of inner place that our culture says, no, you can't do that, or
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other men say, you can't do that, or they're just, you know, afraid to.
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Daniel Ellenberg: Absolutely.
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There's nothing overly theoretical, but there is an interesting theory.
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And gender were called precarious manhood.
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And it's.
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It's actually empirically studied.
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And like, just give you a quick example.
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Let me make a connection to what you're saying, which is they had two groups of men
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who were doing the same braiding
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of some rope.
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And one was just simply rope and everything, braiding it.
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The other, the rope was connected to a female doll.
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So they did exactly the same thing.
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And then the next intervention was, there's a punching bag.
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And it turned out that the men who had been braiding the doll punched the
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punching bag way more intensely than the ones who were just braiding.
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And
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experiment after experiment showed that men were trying to reestablish their sense
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of masculinity because they're, like, canonized by being, you know, with.
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With the female doll.
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And so I think that when you think about, like,
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essentially how guys are raised, which is intensive, precarious manhood model, you
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learn to.
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To
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prove your masculinity.
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And like, it's.
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It's hard to do an easy to lose, and it must be done in public,
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you know, and so what is.
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What is seen as feminine?
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And this is where I think something just so wrong.
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Often the culture is changing, certainly some as part of what I've seen, but it's
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the indictment about showing vulnerability,
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which has been associated with femininity and not being male and being weak
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is really at the core.
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It's like the linchpin that holds the whole system together.
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And so what you're talking about, Jason, is that a guy there in the retreat, I'm
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sure more than one were taking the mask off and having the courage, ironically,
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to show
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something that has been like.
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It's been an indictment against culturally that somehow because, like, you're
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showing your weakness by
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like, really like, hello, like, you want to talk about vulnerability?
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Let's talk about death.
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Right socket from dying.
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Just.
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Just do that.
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So ultimately, we are.
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We human animals, as I like to call us.
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We're vulnerable creatures and we can be dangerous, we can be wounded,
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will eventually die.
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And so how is it that we don't have vulnerability and that vulnerability is a
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weakness?
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Not at all.
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And so that man was actually showing his strength.
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And that's what I mean.
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As someone who's led a lot of retreats myself, and I've led 40 years of weekly
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men's groups and numerous men's groups at a time.
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And I'm telling you that I almost felt teary with this because it's back so many
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memories of all these
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stepped up and really had the courage to go beyond the cultural
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shaming,
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you know, vulnerability that it's just so endemic and epidemic and
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frustrating and people really stop.
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Come on, give me
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yet to really see the full range of these guys are being human.
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And that's what connects us, and that's where the real relationship lies.
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And without that,
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you know, we're just sterile, you know, and antiseptic and hidden
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in a box of natural.
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So you're talking about the man box
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being enclosed and suffocating emotionally.
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And so kudos to you to be doing this work.
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All the men, for example,
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and whoever's just recognizing that this is insane.
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It's like, I think about.
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There's an ancient Turkish saying that says, no matter how far you've gone in the
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wrong direction, there's no shame in turning back.
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And I think a lot of us are trying to turn back and open up to just human
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what it be.
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And it doesn't care the full range of being human.
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I would like that to be accessible.
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Doesn't identify as either.
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Like, why is this male?
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This fits.
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It's insane.
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Jason Lange: Yeah, it's funny.
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I was just talking about that
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yesterday of, you know, men's work is really just human work.
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It's the work of becoming human.
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They're just, you know, there's some easier doorways to that sometimes when we're
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around mental men who have been raised in a similar culture or have some similar
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experiences because of, I think, what you're speaking to and I've.
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You Know, it blows me away every time I see it, that when, that when a man goes.
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Steps forward and brings himself forward,
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the.
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The resounding.
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Obviously, the men that come to me are self selecting, but the resounding impact in
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the room is
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holy.
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Thank you.
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That was actually brave.
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That was courageous.
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I.
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I trust you more.
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And then some part of them starts to get the signal, well, if he can do that, maybe
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I could do that.
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Daniel Ellenberg: Exactly.
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That's exactly right.
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Jason Lange: And it radiates through the room, right?
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Daniel Ellenberg: Well, we're social beings, you know, and we learn through modeling and imitation,
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you know, and so if you're in group where everyone's like this, fighting, you know,
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and you're like this,
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it just doesn't fit.
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Like, you think about being in your family.
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Like, if you think about family, like, there's the family body and you think about
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family, like, if you see me, like, everyone's like this, uhhuh.
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Like this.
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But then there's one kid like this.
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And so you.
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You find a way to fit in because we're wired to survive, you
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know, to thrive, you know, and so that fitting in and being part of
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triggers kind of ancient survival issues.
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So if you stand out too much, you can become a target.
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And so we find a way to fit into our tribes.
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We're.
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We're tribal social beings.
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And so when you're in a particular context, they are in a men's group where it's a
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different culture and you're actually encouraged rather than discouraged to show up.
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It's kind of like
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what
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part of you has been yearning for that?
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It's like, really,
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if you some way, consciously, unconsciously, often the latter, you know, there's
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just a sense of because something breaks,
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you know, that's part of what brings people to you and did bring people to me, this
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sense of there's something wrong, I want more.
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Jason Lange: It's beautifully put
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in the,
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you know, certainly more and more, I think, because I'm getting there, you know,
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working with guys in middle age and that's.
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I think you just named the thing they can't always name
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is life feels confined
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and restricted, and I don't feel free.
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And for the last, you know, often, for the first 20 years of a man's life, he thinks
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that, you know, they often, and I did too, you know, think that freedom's gonna come
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from, oh, the bigger paycheck, the hotter girlfriend, the.
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The.
17:57
The better abs.
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And then it.
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It doesn't.
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It doesn't.
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It doesn't actually free us in the way we think.
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And I think what you're naming is that.
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Yeah, that.
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That kind of freedom to bring ourselves fully forward and feel
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like as simple as that is just feel.
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And it again, it astounds me.
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And you know, I'm more and more as I work with guys, I'm like, this is
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masculine leadership now to go first, right?
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To be the one that says, here I am.
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This hurts.
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Or this is awesome.
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Sometimes that's just as edgy for some guys.
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Like, hey, I'm doing great actually.
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And it's like, well, you can just be great.
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Great.
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Daniel Ellenberg: Exactly.
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I think the braids are one of them.
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From what you just shared, Jason, was to bring ourselves
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forward.
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And I think that one of the ways that guys get stuck
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is that they think they have one self.
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You know, one aspect.
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I think part of what's been really freeing for me, and I can't say that it's been
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from earlier in my life, it wasn't as I really came to, to see that it's not just
19:06
about like self acceptance, it's about selves acceptance,
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you know.
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And so that I know for me, like I'm very strong and clear and confident in some ways
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I'm weaker, more insecure, more dubious in other ways.
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And for me there was a way that was.
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I felt ashamed about the ways that I just weren't that good.
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Even though I had a big technical issue trying to get into this.
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I'm like, I'm not great, you know, with computers and things like that or building.
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I'd be like, oh my God, I can't do.
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I think I don't find that.
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And I've just come to go, like, I can celebrate the parts of me that are pretty cool
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and together.
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And I can, when I can be embracing of those other parts, I don't need to like
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be all things to all people, including myself.
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And so I think when you think about man's groups and the situations where guys can
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reach for, hey, you're cool here.
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I'm going to be in place for that.
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And looks so great here like this.
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This is really hard for me.
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Like, okay, well, I have hard parts of me.
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It may not be that, it may be something else.
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And I think that the more that we are open
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about who we are,
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where easily
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that we form groups where we can actually be more active
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as a group.
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Because this whole thing about the strong individual
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is in charge of everything.
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The alpha dog, it's not what alphas are in nature.
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It's just this stupid
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absurd version.
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And ironically,
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when guys are so Driven by that whole, you know, masculinity,
20:59
you know, identity.
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They're.
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They're obviously weaker, and we see this in terms of health.
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They die younger, they have less friends, they have less connected relationships.
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They're more dependent.
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Ironically, they won't admit it.
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Jason Lange: You're right.
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I know.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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You know, one of my favorite things that come at the tough guys with sometimes is
21:28
the, you know, it's.
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You know, you can.
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Daniel Ellenberg: There's.
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Jason Lange: This is what it is in our culture, but often the pinnacle.
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Right.
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Of warrior in American kind of culture
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is the seal.
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But guess what?
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It's SEAL team.
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It's SEAL team.
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It's not seal.
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Because the team is more effective than the individual for all the reasons you're
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pointing to.
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And I love what you shared because it's certainly been my experience in my groups
21:56
and that bringing my.
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All my selves in and realizing the men in my group have selves and some of ourselves
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are better at some things than other things.
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And as I acknowledge the things, you know, parts of me are not so good at, the.
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The other thing that is really edgy for me and so many men I.
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I work with now is, well, when we admit that, guess what becomes available.
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People can help us in the things we're not great at.
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Right.
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Where it's like,
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oh, my God, hey, I'm.
22:30
I'm not so good at this thing.
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Could you.
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Would you be willing to help me out?
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Yeah, I'll help you out.
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And they come in and they handle the thing in like, 10 minutes.
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That would have taken me, you know, five days of on the Internet.
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And
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it's been one of the edgiest things for me to, like, feel that.
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And, you know, it is such a shift in that, you know, like our mutual friend Keith.
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Right.
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There's things I'll go to Keith with where I'm like, tell me what to do, because you
22:57
know what to do here.
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I don't.
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And there's other things where I'm like, I'm going to tell you what to do, because I
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know what to do here and you don't.
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And having that kind of group culture, I think, has been so liberating for me
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to get.
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Get out of that.
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I still catch myself.
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I got to do it all by myself.
23:14
I got to figure it out, bro.
23:17
Daniel Ellenberg: Of course.
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I mean, you think about how the brain forms, you know, like that early, early
23:22
conditioning around doing it alone, and it's shameful to ask for help, even
23:27
directions.
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You know, like the whole joke about men won't ask for directions, you're driving
23:32
around for five hours when it's actually a few blocks away, and to just ask, now
23:38
they have gps.
23:40
This is helpful with male shame.
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But
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I think that's such an important part.
23:48
And it's like admitting acknowledging that you ain't perfect, you ain't
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that.
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Hello.
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That's part of being human and it's part of connections.
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And I think, for me, I think I was.
24:00
I was.
24:00
I know I was a very early adapter, so to speak, in terms of acknowledging
24:05
vulnerabilities.
24:07
And that really helped me develop strong friendships with women also, but certainly
24:12
with a lot of men over the years.
24:15
And I hear that so many men had
24:19
none, maybe one that they call a close friend.
24:22
And when you really hear, do they actually acknowledge what's going on in their
24:27
lives, with their lives or their businesses or places that they're in doubt
24:33
to help?
24:35
Do they.
24:35
Do they really share vulnerability?
24:38
It's a small percentage,
24:40
and that's what needs to change.
24:43
That, I believe, is really at the core,
24:50
You know, transformation, where it's like, hey, you know,
24:54
if we're not in this together, we're.
24:57
We're kind of scared, basically.
24:59
We can see some of that
25:01
on the global stage.
25:04
It's a mess.
25:06
Yeah.
25:08
Jason Lange: And so I.
25:09
I have this question I've asked a few men that I'd love to get your perspective on,
25:13
which is just,
25:15
what do you.
25:16
What do you tell the tough guys
25:18
that they're missing or not getting?
25:21
But then also, you know, a lot of men I work with and I consider myself.
25:24
And what do you tell the kind of nice guys who are maybe a little too collapsed in
25:30
what they're missing or what they need to bring?
25:34
Daniel Ellenberg: Well, I think it better in terms of the most.
25:37
I think the most important continuum that exists, you know, which is on the one side
25:42
we have openness,
25:44
extreme openness.
25:45
On the other side, we have extreme defensiveness.
25:49
And, you know, sometimes people can be too open.
25:52
I'm not saying to, you know, when they can't.
25:55
When a cashier asks you, how are you doing?
25:57
I'm so glad you were asking me that question.
25:59
You know, that's such a hard thing.
26:03
They're not asking for openness.
26:04
It's just a way of saying, hello, you're human, I'm human.
26:08
Let's not treat each other like robots
26:11
in a way.
26:12
But most of the time it's more in a territory of defensiveness.
26:17
And I think about defense, I get preferred.
26:19
Basically, there's a go look, we're human animals or human Animals, as I call this,
26:23
before we feel threatened.
26:26
The first portal of any relationship is safety versus threat.
26:31
Threats automatically trigger defensive reactions.
26:34
Fight, flight, freeze, appease of some type or other.
26:38
And I would say when you say the nice guys, they'd be more in the territory of
26:43
freeze or appease.
26:45
And if you want to talk about the tough guys, they'd be more in the territory of
26:49
fight.
26:51
But they're all defensive reactions to the experience of threat,
26:56
you know.
26:57
And so most people, you have to, if you think about like there are different
27:01
systems, you know, in, in the human one of, in the brain, where essentially
27:06
there's, there's the actual, the visceral system where actually you're in a
27:10
defensive reaction, but then there's the awareness system.
27:14
Like, do you know you are,
27:16
do you know you're defending against something you.
27:19
And they don't often connect.
27:21
And that's a lot of what happens with male psych.
27:23
I have defense.
27:24
What do you mean?
27:27
This is me.
27:28
I'm open with, what's your problem?
27:30
You're saying that,
27:32
I mean, I'm messing around right now.
27:34
But I've heard the, I've certainly heard these things and I go like, tune into your
27:39
body right now.
27:41
If you actually tune into your body, you notice,
27:44
really notice that there's something tightening
27:47
in you.
27:48
It's armoring.
27:50
And armoring is defense.
27:53
And so it really has to do with how can you become flexible.
27:58
So I think it's perfectly fine to say no, but you also have to be able to say yes.
28:05
Like, if you can't, if you can't say no, your yes can't be trusted.
28:11
If you can't say yes,
28:14
then you're not in relationship,
28:17
you know, essentially,
28:19
you know.
28:20
And so how do, in terms of somebody who's really, really tough, tough, tough.
28:25
I, I'm, I mean, I'm quite capable of being tough.
28:29
I, I have that side of myself, you know, so there's a part of me that's a warrior,
28:34
like, okay, okay, I'll go toe to toe again.
28:36
And I did, I mean, many times in groups.
28:38
And I,
28:39
I,
28:41
I don't want to say I've been to the wars, but I've been tested
28:45
so many times.
28:47
And you know, there are times I got super defensive,
28:50
active.
28:51
And I think that the work is continually going back to get more room.
28:56
I just got defensive.
28:58
I'm aware
29:00
and I'm acknowledged that and, and to apologize even
29:05
many feelings to many people,
29:08
many
29:09
of the feelings I used to be.
29:10
So I don't tend to get into those Rattles
29:13
like I used to.
29:15
But
29:16
it's the willingness to be open and to really focus on what's true.
29:21
And I think about truth as a combination of honesty and awareness.
29:26
Honesty is what I'm actually saying interpersonally.
29:30
Awareness of what I'm actually experiencing within myself.
29:34
Intro personally.
29:35
So in other words, I can be aware
29:38
without being truthful.
29:39
If I'm not honest, and I can be honest without being truthful.
29:43
I'm not actually aware, you know, what's going on.
29:46
I'm not.
29:47
I'm not scared.
29:47
What do you mean scared?
29:49
Like I'm saying something, which is what I believe, honestly.
29:53
Because actually I'm just not aware that I actually am like that feels threatened.
29:59
Jason Lange: Yeah, I love that.
30:00
I mean, you're just blowing my mind with,
30:03
you know, a frame for experiences.
30:07
I've had both getting reflection from men in my men's group and offering.
30:11
Daniel Ellenberg: Right.
30:12
Jason Lange: Men I coach and in men's work.
30:14
Yeah.
30:14
That's such a killer.
30:16
Amazing expression of truth in it.
30:18
Yes.
30:20
And oftentimes, you know, my journey initially was, well, get aware of what's
30:24
happening in my body because I had no idea, like, how are you today?
30:28
I'm good.
30:28
I'm fine.
30:29
I'm okay.
30:29
Like that.
30:30
That was asking.
30:32
Daniel Ellenberg: Yeah.
30:32
Production.
30:33
Jason Lange: Okay.
30:34
That was my.
30:35
That was my.
30:36
The limit of my interoception for probably the first, you know, 25, 30 years of my
30:41
life.
30:42
And now that I can kind of get a sense of it, my edge has been, okay, now bring it
30:46
forward right now.
30:47
Be able to speak that.
30:49
Whereas before, Before I didn't really have either of those online.
30:52
So, hey, I'm going to one out of two now.
30:53
So I'm getting there.
30:54
I'm getting there.
30:56
Daniel Ellenberg: So I'll bet you say things about your inner experience,
31:02
don't you?
31:03
Jason Lange: Yeah, yeah.
31:04
Now, Now I can right now.
31:06
Now it's easier for me to bring that forward because I'm more aware of it.
31:11
My edge is, right,
31:12
more the nice guy
31:12
thing of.
31:13
Well, what happens if I bring my edge, my inner awareness forward?
31:17
But it creates conflict.
31:18
Right.
31:19
That's where I've had to get better at coming forward.
31:22
Daniel Ellenberg: So ask.
31:23
What.
31:23
What happens?
31:25
Jason Lange: Yeah, the.
31:26
The lived experience I have is it actually creates way more connection,
31:31
paradoxically, like, people feel closer to me.
31:33
Our relationships deepen.
31:35
The, the, the habit in the programming from childhood was don't go there.
31:41
So that's what, you know, I'm updating in really in men's group more than anywhere
31:46
else in my intimate relationship.
31:47
Those are the two places where I'm Practicing this the most and then everywhere else
31:52
becomes easy in some ways compared to that.
31:54
Daniel Ellenberg: Well, I mean it's, it's also how, how do you bring that forward?
31:59
I mean for me I think we have different characters.
32:03
And so for me I would bring that
32:08
challenging conflictual confronting part four.
32:12
But I got in a lot of trouble because I wasn't aware
32:16
that I was actually
32:19
being competitive in a negative sense or you know, I buy something, I'm gonna be
32:25
saying screw you and being thinking I'm being honest about that.
32:30
But I wasn't going to a deeper level of awareness that I actually felt really
32:34
hurt and that I was attempting to, you know, you hit me with a stick, I'm gonna hit
32:39
you back.
32:40
You know, we're imagining I'm just being honest.
32:44
And so there.
32:46
And that's part of what my, my own journey has been like.
32:49
A lot of people are reacting negatively to this.
32:52
What's wrong with that?
32:54
You know?
32:55
You know, I, I, I love this on dysfunction
33:01
where there's a demotivators was there's this picture of a chain and one broken
33:06
link.
33:07
And the same thing with dysfunction.
33:08
It says the one common feature in all of your dissatisfying relationships is
33:14
you.
33:16
You know, and it's kind of like okay, well a lot of my relationships are
33:20
dissatisfying.
33:22
What's, what's the one common link in there?
33:26
Oh, it must be me.
33:27
What am I doing?
33:29
And so that was actually part of what led me into wanting to see people.
33:35
And it was a
33:38
misapprehended way that tempting connect by being blunt and which I
33:44
saw in my father.
33:44
And my father was a major rager.
33:47
And so that was my role model there.
33:50
I just role modeled it.
33:52
And when it didn't go that well for him, gee, it's gonna go well for me.
33:58
And finally I live long enough to and have enough
34:03
desire deeper connection with people that I start to change that way as a look at,
34:09
you know, is, is it worth saying
34:13
so my, I heard an acronym from a friend colleague many years ago
34:20
workshop together and share this acronym WAIT, which stands for why am I
34:26
talking?
34:29
And so I do apply that like my wife, she says something irritates me and I
34:35
just know that if I,
34:37
if I respond in ways that I have in ways I have I can predict when it's going to go.
34:43
I can just see the movie.
34:45
And I got like think I want to go into that theater right now.
34:49
And so just kind of like I don't, I don't say nearly as much as I Used to.
34:53
So my, my purpose has been actually to kind of move back and metabolize and is this
34:59
important to say now?
35:00
We'll still say things, you know, to people if it's, if it feels important.
35:04
But a lot of times I'm containing more, you know, than I used to.
35:09
I mean, I think that for a lot of guys there's this whole dynamic between expression
35:14
on one hand and containment on here.
35:17
There's people that like totally uncontained and it's just like, we don't like what
35:22
you're up there.
35:25
Build more of a container.
35:27
Some people are too contained.
35:29
They need to express themselves.
35:31
It's not a one size fits all.
35:33
I think that's when we look at men's work, we're not looking at like man as some
35:39
monochromatic, you know, organism.
35:42
It's like we're all different.
35:44
We've all had different experiences.
35:46
And
35:48
you had mentioned this, this course that I'm doing with Keith Martin-Smith and
35:53
actually James Baraz, who was a pretty well known Buddhist teacher.
35:58
And you know, we've gotten responses back, you know, through the marketing, like,
36:03
hey, is there.
36:04
What do you think?
36:06
You know, you
36:08
use the word strength.
36:09
Did you talk about.
36:11
There are these concerns that come up, which I understand.
36:14
But then when people,
36:17
bottom line want to know is, is it going to be safe for me?
36:20
Is there room for me to be me?
36:22
Is there openness, you know, to my particular experience and expression about being
36:28
a guy?
36:29
And my answer to that is yes.
36:31
But I also also recognize that, you know, a lot of most guys have been
36:37
seriously wounded and they're, they're peasant,
36:41
you know, be truthful,
36:44
right?
36:45
And, and so how do you, you know, how do you create a context in which people feel
36:49
safe enough,
36:51
you know, to step forward and take risks?
36:53
You don't.
36:54
There is a risk reward quotient there.
36:57
And bottom line is you.
36:59
Even if everyone's like, please tell us your deepest, darkest secret, sacrist, like
37:05
likey crazy like you, you may like me if I say this and this.
37:11
Maybe that.
37:17
May be proof of that.
37:18
There may be like something is
37:21
when molest a child and they feel ashamed.
37:26
There are some certain things that some guys are holding that really difficult and
37:32
will be difficult to hear.
37:34
So it's, it's the final word for the receiver
37:38
of that to go like what part of me?
37:41
And how can I make a room
37:43
for that
37:45
part or parts of somebody else?
37:48
And so even when you're talking about this guy who's showing up in your room and
37:53
being open, well, he's giving permission on some love for other people
37:59
and they're sitting there like,
38:02
can I bring
38:04
or,
38:05
or even
38:07
about myself.
38:09
So it's all this whole
38:11
dynamic interplay of acceptance, rejection,
38:16
you know, it's all going on.
38:18
And when you think about
38:21
what we learn in the culture like this, I mean, it's crazy.
38:28
And so this is utterly new territory that I'm, I mean, I've been exploring for a
38:33
lot, many decades at this point.
38:36
You also feel saddened
38:39
when I look out.
38:42
I mean, technologically
38:45
so, or consciousness, perspective.
38:51
Jason Lange: Yeah,
38:55
well
38:56
you've, you've given us a tailwind, that's for sure.
38:59
And you know, I'm curious,
39:03
looking back at all the men you've spent time with, what are some of the big
39:07
mistakes
39:09
you see men just keep making
39:12
generation after generation?
39:16
Daniel Ellenberg: Well, you were pointing to one earlier, which is needing to do it alone,
39:21
you know, and underneath that is,
39:25
is there,
39:28
is there room for me
39:30
to be here?
39:32
All of me, Beauty, beauty warts and all.
39:36
Because when you think about this whole thing of exclusion, I mean, one of the
39:42
things that I've been really struck by in the whole DEI movement and not to go into
39:46
the whole political
39:48
craziness around that, is that I never heard
39:53
in the broader
39:56
public
39:57
anything about internal dei,
40:00
you know, like we're so focused on external DEI and all the
40:07
aspects of that, but in terms of your own internal
40:12
diversity, equity, inclusion.
40:15
So for most of us, we're actually pretty open to including certain parts of
40:20
ourselves,
40:22
but we are very exclusive of other parts of ourselves.
40:27
And I think that, that when you ask me about what has been a predominant theme, it's
40:33
been about excluding certain parts,
40:37
you know, of oneself.
40:38
And so when you're in rejection or in shame about certain parts, and so you don't
40:44
even want to be aware of it yourself because the brain is very powerful at
40:49
subverting awareness.
40:51
You know, as one interpersonal neuro scientist said, Mother Nature has not
40:57
seen fit to invest much neural architecture in self awareness.
41:03
You know, we're much more aware of others,
41:06
you know, foibles and you know that.
41:08
And instead of looking at our own in a, in a reasonable way, not just, oh, I'm a
41:14
shitty person, I'm awful, I'm, you know this.
41:16
But actually
41:18
in a more dispassionate, objective way of looking.
41:22
So like that's a part of me and I don't have to get all
41:26
bent out of shape or emotional, but like, yeah, you know, there's a part of me
41:31
that's negatively competitive, that doesn't Want, you know, even a friend sometimes
41:37
to do well.
41:38
I also do want them to do well, but I have to be aware of the part of me that can
41:42
feel competitive, like a crab.
41:44
Some crab is getting out of the pot or something.
41:47
And I don't tend to act on it, but I'm aware that's a part of me instead of being.
41:52
Excluding that part and go, oh, my God, so terrible.
41:56
I should be more involved than that.
41:58
I should, I should.
41:59
I should.
41:59
Or I should there say, can I,
42:02
you know, that's part of the dance, that's part of the experience and have room for
42:08
that.
42:09
And I haven't seen
42:11
over the years
42:13
a deeper, ongoing macro movement for this kind
42:19
of cells, you know, inclusion in a way, and recognizing that,
42:24
yeah, you have strength and weaknesses, and we're talking about that.
42:29
But if we're gonna have to be whole men,
42:33
we gotta, you know, be embracing of different parts.
42:35
Even parts you wish weren't there, but.
42:38
But they are.
42:39
Too bad.
42:41
Jason Lange: Yeah.
42:41
Daniel Ellenberg: Oh, beautiful.
42:43
Jason Lange: I just hadn't ever thought about turning that frame
42:47
internally.
42:47
Daniel Ellenberg: And then.
42:48
Jason Lange: Yeah, that's.
42:49
That's the work.
42:50
That's the work I've been seeing men do is right.
42:52
Yeah.
42:52
Like, bring these parts forward and be okay.
42:54
And the.
42:56
I've had that hard line in myself where I'm like, I'm okay with this part.
42:59
I'm okay with this part.
43:01
I'm not okay with this part.
43:02
And they're like, you really not okay with that part?
43:04
Because that part looks okay to me.
43:05
No, I'm not okay with this part.
43:07
Nothing you can tell me is going to make me okay with this part.
43:09
And it's like this hard defense
43:12
and then the.
43:13
The hilarious thing.
43:15
Not hilarious, but the.
43:17
The movement I often see and why I'm so passionate.
43:20
I think about groups and in the way you are.
43:22
I see another man
43:25
bring forward that part, and I'm like, dude, that part's so lovable.
43:29
You're, like, so hard on yourself.
43:30
What are you talking about?
43:31
And then they turn it on me.
43:33
I'm like, nope.
43:34
But it starts to open something right?
43:37
In that process of, oh, wait, maybe
43:40
I've had this experience in group, right.
43:42
Maybe this
43:44
frame I have of myself
43:47
and this part of myself is bullshit.
43:49
Is it that?
43:50
Or is it the nine other guys looking at me and they're all full of.
43:54
Which one's more likely?
43:55
Like, really?
43:56
And it's like, oh, well, I think it's probably me that needs to update.
44:00
Daniel Ellenberg: No, don't chase.
44:01
It must be them.
44:02
Jason Lange: Yeah, exactly right.
44:05
Another question I have for you is, you know,
44:08
you've seen, you know, the culture we've been riding through these last years and
44:14
how would you, or how do you work with men or how do you talk about like the
44:18
difference between
44:20
compassion for us men and our pain and what we've gone through and
44:26
are actually taking responsibility
44:29
for
44:30
what hurt we've caused in the world or how we've co created it, this kind of fine
44:35
line in some sense of not, you know, and I'm still trying to figure out not
44:41
demonizing all men because that's all bullshit.
44:43
The toxic masculinity, that's all bullshit.
44:45
It's just, it's not useful.
44:47
And
44:48
we got some work to do as men, right?
44:50
Like all the things you've been talking about so we can come into deeper
44:54
relationship with ourselves and each other.
44:57
How do you work that, that line of compassion?
45:02
Daniel Ellenberg: Ding, ding, ding, ding, ding.
45:04
I mean that's a, that's one of the biggest questions imaginable right there.
45:10
Which is to say like I, I stopped leading men's groups
45:15
over two and a half years ago.
45:17
I did them for 40 years.
45:19
And so I'm, I'm actually not in the, the throes of just the weekly experience.
45:25
I mean I am in larger contexts now in terms of, you know,
45:30
connecting with different organizations like November Ecamundo and you know, looking
45:35
at, I'm part of the global Compassion Coalition where I have the Men and Boys
45:40
Compassion Coalition.
45:41
I'm really looking at
45:43
larger macro theme.
45:44
So that, that is the territory of like what is going to, going on culturally.
45:50
And I, I think that there's, there's,
45:54
it's so complex.
45:56
So like in the Men and Boys Compassion Coalition we have like a kind of a triangle
46:00
or look at, we want to inspire more compassion from boys and men toward others,
46:06
you know, compassion toward themselves self compassion and more compassion toward
46:12
boys than men.
46:13
I can tell you that that's far and away the hardest sell
46:17
because there are a lot of women who are saying that, you know, they've caused me
46:22
harm, you know, I'm wounded.
46:24
I'll see this in female psychologists.
46:26
I mean
46:28
the American Psychological association to get a men's caucus is like men
46:33
like man as an interest group.
46:36
But they're the, they're the ones who have caused all the damage.
46:40
And I just think it's incredibly shortsighted and small minded, you know, to see
46:46
things through that because you know, if you really look at what is it that leads to
46:51
abuse, it's abuse.
46:54
You know, the people who are abused tend to abuse and when you think about, you
47:00
know, the abuse that happens to little boys around
47:04
their emotional nature and don't show that man up and don't be a pussy
47:10
and
47:11
don't.
47:11
Don't be a wuss and all these.
47:13
These things that are really part of your core part
47:18
being that you are told is.
47:22
And shameful.
47:23
And so you wind up subverting that.
47:25
And again, it want.
47:27
It turns into something that it wasn't.
47:30
So the.
47:32
There's no simple answers for this.
47:34
But I do think that, again, if you.
47:36
Despite whatever the conditioning is, if you hurt people and you've done things that
47:41
are
47:43
less than compassionate,
47:46
I think it's important to be aware of that
47:49
and to acknowledge that and really work to be better.
47:53
So I think that, I mean, I.
47:55
I gotta hold myself to a pretty.
47:57
I stand elect
47:59
many people through the years, and I think I do that
48:03
less than they used to.
48:05
And, you know, if I'm off and I do something, if I disagree with you, Jason, I want
48:10
to know that and say, hey, I didn't get it.
48:14
I didn't see it.
48:15
I can see your point, you know, or if I
48:19
kind of like, well,
48:21
I misunderstood.
48:24
I didn't.
48:24
I think I said that I wasn't holding that.
48:28
And so it's like this inner outer game where for me, I'm like, looking at, like,
48:33
what's true about what.
48:36
What that is saying.
48:37
So
48:38
one principle that I've been involved with and I used for years is
48:44
what we call the 1% rule.
48:46
And the 1% rule of that is that in any perception, there's at least 1 1% truth,
48:52
even if it's 99 projection.
48:55
And so
48:57
that's true.
48:57
That's not true.
48:59
You know, getting into these kind of stupid battles is kind of like, okay, well, how
49:04
are you gaming Hunger Games?
49:06
Insecure.
49:07
Yeah.
49:07
Well, there is this.
49:10
And I.
49:10
I even thought about when you were talking about
49:13
before the sequence where you were saying, like, oh, you'll be very accepting when
49:17
other people.
49:18
I feel like
49:19
you that there's a kind of, I believe, a hidden arrogance in it,
49:25
you know, like, I am in a different way
49:32
out there.
49:32
I.
49:33
For me to feel bad about it, it really shows how noble, you know, I
49:39
am better at dying than others.
49:41
So it's like a little shadowy thing to go, like,
49:45
being down on myself.
49:47
But actually there's this hidden aggrandizement, you know, in that,
49:52
you know, and so it takes some willingness to go like, wow, how granular and willing
49:57
am I?
49:58
Just looking at all of these different dynamics because we're all race, I mean human
50:03
beings,
50:06
you know, like so called civilized chimps.
50:09
And if you look at chimp behavior, man, it's, it's not that sweet, you know, in a
50:14
lot of ways.
50:15
So we really get to deal with, you know, Buddha's,
50:19
the three deadly poisonous, greed, delusion and hatred.
50:23
And so we all have these parts of ourselves
50:26
and, and so
50:29
in terms of know, recognizing, yeah, me shitty toward women, toward children in
50:35
ways and just kind of like, how can I be better and how can I be part of the, you
50:41
know, part of the solution
50:43
out here?
50:44
So I think there's, you know, your own reckoning, you know, of your,
50:50
there has been privilege.
50:51
I do believe there is still male privilege in certain ways, but there's also male
50:57
underprivilege,
50:59
you know, and I think a lot of groups don't see that.
51:01
And when you're not allowed to have certain emotions and, and you'd be shamed for
51:06
that often by males.
51:08
You know, it's not like, it's not just females shaming males.
51:11
There's a lot of these kinds of male culture, you know, there.
51:16
Well, it's a survival thing, you know, to toughen up boy named Sue, Johnny
51:22
Cash.
51:22
Right.
51:23
You know, it toughen up.
51:25
And so that's what kind of leads towards some of this stuff.
51:29
And you can see in the culture so much negativity to guys and guys can't do
51:35
anything right.
51:35
And it's part of what drives a lot of these younger guys to the extreme right.
51:40
Militias and things, because they're being shamed and blamed for everything.
51:45
Guys suck.
51:46
And you know, if a man is alone in the forest, is he wrong?
51:50
Yeah.
51:50
You know, who would, you know, would you rather run into a bear or a man in the
51:54
forest?
51:54
I mean, there's just so many things out there.
51:57
Guys shown us bumbling idiots and you know, women rule.
52:03
I, I, I,
52:06
for me, I feel like I've been in this middle zone.
52:10
Like, you know, it's up everywhere, you know, it's not, it's not like women's shit
52:14
doesn't stink.
52:16
And I'm not saying that for all women.
52:17
I'm saying that, you know, they're incredibly beautiful men, incredibly beautiful
52:22
women,
52:24
spiritually, emotionally.
52:25
And there are people who are very different from that.
52:27
I don't, I like, and I'm not into identity groups either.
52:31
Like this group is better than that group.
52:33
It's like I like to look at individuals like we're all different and to just be open
52:38
to whom it was, you know.
52:41
And how do we embrace
52:43
who's ever with us and to be as connected as possible.
52:47
And I'm always going to,
52:49
how can I connect?
52:51
I love that.
52:53
Jason Lange: Yeah, I love that I've been saying lately and experiencing, you know, when we try to
52:57
rank pain, we all lose.
52:59
Like it's just a losing battle.
53:03
So as we wind down here,
53:06
I would love, I'll put all this in the show notes but talk to us about Strength with
53:09
Heart in this amazing offering that's coming pretty soon here, I
53:14
Daniel Ellenberg: think very soon, very soon.
53:16
Three weeks from today.
53:18
I don't know when you're showing this podcast, but it starts October 3rd.
53:23
So we have a nine month course which is long enough for a pregnancy.
53:29
So I figure that you will be reborn
53:32
by the end.
53:33
And actually
53:35
Keith and I have written a book along with another friend, colleague Fred Rabinowitz
53:41
called Strength with Heart.
53:42
And this course is based on the nine guidebooks of Strength with Heart.
53:48
So we've been working on this.
53:49
I started working this years ago and Keith came in more recently.
53:56
But basically we're really looking at human factors of being aware as one of the guy
54:06
courage, intention,
54:08
you know, leadership.
54:10
It goes on without going to all the guidance.
54:12
Each month is a different practice and we have guest speakers coming.
54:16
We actually have.
54:16
The CEO of the American Psychological association is one of our speakers.
54:21
We have
54:23
the major found of acceptance and commitment therapy which is extremely
54:28
widely used in
54:31
the lands.
54:38
The great speakers are coming, you know, midway through the month.
54:42
And it's, it's really an opportunity to integrate.
54:47
One of the things that I've seen is that so many people out there listen different
54:53
podcasts, getting different workshops, doing different therapies, doing all kinds of
54:58
different things.
54:59
And they're collecting
55:01
many experiences, which is great and why we.
55:05
But they're not necessarily integrated.
55:08
Unless something gets integrated into your system, it actually doesn't become part
55:13
of you.
55:14
And so even as you're attempting to expand your mindset, extend your mind,
55:20
expand your, your skill set,
55:23
yes you can.
55:25
You know, you know, there's some part of you that keeps going back to the mean
55:30
progression to me because, you know, we're wired
55:35
to feel threatened by change.
55:38
People want to feel better in the general, but they don't actually want to change
55:43
because changing is being different.
55:45
Being different means not a bad who you were and there's an attachment to being who
55:50
you are because at a minimum you're still alive.
55:54
And so there's something about the news.
55:57
Better the devil you know.
55:58
You know, the saying is better the devil you know than w don't I like a different
56:04
saying, which is better the devil you knew than the angel you don't.
56:09
Oh yeah.
56:12
Because there are different parts of ourselves that they.
56:15
They're cool and we just don't know who they are.
56:18
And so the course is really a way of integrating different aspects of ourselves and
56:24
expanding our mindset and skill set in community.
56:27
So there's going to be a lot of guys and the fingers of guys who are going to be
56:30
taking this, it's all online, but there's going to be individual groups that meet,
56:35
you know, in between, like four, five different guys get to know each other well.
56:42
Interruption.
56:43
Well, it's going to be about being human.
56:46
I mean, it's not being a guy and one here
56:50
I gotta think about even like one of the theories in men's work.
56:53
It's like positive masculinity.
56:55
When I look at it, it's like it's
56:58
human.
56:58
Like, I know
57:00
masculinity means I've been involved with it, masculinity.
57:05
Other than that, I think it's stupid.
57:08
I think we shouldn't even be using masculinity feminine.
57:11
Because if I start looking through the lens, like, am I being masculine enough?
57:15
You know, that's a bad question.
57:18
You know, some guys will present as more traditionally masculine, you know, football
57:24
players and stuff,
57:26
you know, or thinner violin type.
57:30
You can be a cool dude.
57:32
It.
57:32
It's no one way of being.
57:34
And that's why like for my APA division, you know, it's called Men and masculinity,
57:42
not masculinity because it's like open field.
57:47
I'm sure you, Jason, in your groups, these are different.
57:51
You know, when they.
57:52
When they come out of hiding, they look really different.
57:55
And what we want to do is, is really be spacious enough to be a appreciative of
58:01
the creative expressions of every person.
58:05
I'm not just talking about men, but I do.
58:07
They're coming out and hiding and just showing up as yourself.
58:11
And so the strength of our course is really geared toward guys who want to evolve.
58:16
I mean it really.
58:18
I love your evolutionary man.
58:23
I shouldn't use it all
58:26
like usable because we need to
58:29
this point on this planet kind of evolve or die.
58:33
I'm really.
58:33
Yeah.
58:34
We're coming to that place where we have to shift our consciousness or we're just
58:39
gonna blow each other.
58:42
Jason Lange: I am so with you and so
58:47
happy to know you're out there bringing your deepest gifts and everything you've
58:52
learned from men and all the work you've done into the world and I'm going to drop
58:56
all the links and everything to Strength with Heart guys in the show notes to make
59:01
it really easy to check it out along with Daniel's presence online.
59:06
Thank you so much for being here and spending time with me and transmitting your,
59:11
your deep wisdom to my listeners.
59:14
I'm very excited to just stay, stay in touch moving forward and you know you got
59:20
an ally here.
59:21
Anything I can do to help please, please feel free to call me up.
59:26
Daniel Ellenberg: I appreciate you Jason,
59:28
your openness, your
59:31
goodness of heart which I saw immediately you know when we met and your, your
59:36
willingness to be real is part of I'm sure what makes you a great facilitator
59:42
obviously on your path and you know we're all works in progress
59:49
and may
59:50
you work your system
59:53
to keep evolving and may you support others in that process.
59:59
Love it.
59:59
Jason Lange: Well thank you so much and until next time everybody.