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D’Shonda Brown on the Guiding Principles that Inform Her Work · Expertly Said

• Kristen Sweeney: My guest today is D'Shanda Brown, manager of corporate communications at Tris Pharma. D'Shanda is a former Essence editor, turned storyteller, strategist, and speaker who explores the intersection of creativity, technology, and representation. With a background in journalism and corporate communications, she's passionate about helping others harness the power of authentic storytelling to inspire change and shape culture. D'Shanda, welcome to the show. D'Shonda Brown: Thank you. I'm so excited to be here and I'm excited to be able to share my story with others and to be able to encourage folks. So thanks for having me. Kristen Sweeney: Yeah, absolutely. And let's get right into that origin story. you know, tell us a little bit more about what inspired you to start in journalism, how you made the leap to life sciences. Did you always think you'd end up in communications? Tell us a little bit more of that landscape. D'Shonda Brown: Yeah, for sure. So I'll start off with the very last question. Did I always think I was going to end up in communications? The answer is hard no. ⁓ I have always had a passion for writing stories, but I always thought it was kind of like a side thing. Like I like to write poetry. I like to write short stories. I just never thought in my mind that writing and communications was something that I could make a career out of because when people Kristen Sweeney: Okay. D'Shonda Brown: you career day or when people have their parents come in to talk about what they do. I always saw doctors, lawyers, city workers, and I didn't really see the representation for anybody who was a writer or a publicist or a journalist. It was more for the site. Okay, well, if I want to write, I guess I can be a teacher, but I want to be an author, but they don't make a lot of money. So I always thought, okay, straight and narrow path. So I essentially went into wanting to be a veterinarian. I've always loved animals. I've always loved science. But in my mind, I was like, okay, science plus my love for animals equals scientist and veterinarian, got it. But quickly once I went into college, I was like, I hate this. I hate this so much. I don't wanna be here and it was reflecting in my work. I was essentially failing science classes because one thing about me that I've come to realize in the past couple of years is that when I'm not passionate about something, my performance tends to reflect it. So I was like, there must be something here that's just not, it's not clicking, but I was doing really well in classes that had to do with history and writing classes and English classes. So I decided to switch my major to English. And from there I was like, okay, maybe the only thing I can do with being an English major is being an author, but I couldn't, you know, just randomly be an author. So I decided to take up journalism internships during my summer into my sophomore year. And that really helped to build my love and passion for writing and telling stories in a more tangible, quick way, as opposed to like a very long book. So from there, I became the Arts and Entertainment Editor at Morehouse College's ⁓ Maroon Tiger newspaper. From there, I graduated college with my own PR agency called Gold-Blooded Communications, where I focused on millennials and Gen Zers who were in arts, entertainment, fashion, and culture. And that essentially led me to doing more journalism opportunities. I decided that I wanted revisit my love for journalism. So I started writing for Hello Beautiful, which led me to Exo Nicole, which led me to Revolt, which led me to Essence, which I was at for a period of time. And I absolutely loved being there and the impact that they had on me. And I made the switch to life sciences because after the passing of my mother, I realized that there's a lot more to life than just the glitz and the glam and the red carpet and all that stuff. If I'm gonna be in storytelling, I wanna be able to tell meaningful stories. I'm also a mental health advocate. So one thing that I always do in all my stories, I wanna make sure that people feel seen, and valued. So I thought what better way to enter that than to work in pharmacy, work in some type of neuroscience because as somebody who's a neurodivergent and... My mom passed away from a brain tumor and I've always just been passionate about science, but in like the writing journalism kind of way, let's do that. And then I found myself working at Johnson and Johnson, which then led me to my current role here at Tris Pharma as their corporate communications manager, in a nutshell. Kristen Sweeney: Yeah, it's such an interesting journey and I've so much response to it. ⁓ It's always really interesting, but I think meaningful to hear what brings folks, because so many folks in life sciences have that personal connection either with a patient, someone in their lives, family member, friend, or some other kind of moment that's really meaningful. ⁓ D'Shonda Brown: Yeah. ⁓ Kristen Sweeney: somewhat, I can relate when you talked about veterinary school and just hating it in the way that, I have a family that's quite medical, a lot of pharmacists in my family, right? Like folks who've worked for, so ⁓ down the pipeline a bit from pharmaceutical, but a lot of pharmacists in my family, nurse practitioners, know, physicians, and ⁓ I liked science, but like, D'Shonda Brown: I'm getting it. ⁓ come on. Kristen Sweeney: Literally, I was a fantastic student, but my good friend Collette carried me through biology labs because I could not even take the tweezers to the rat, right? So I had always very much written off like, was like, cadavers. It's just not for me. Like any kind of ⁓ that type of pursuit. And so ⁓ it's been a very rewarding sort of D'Shonda Brown: Yeah. Hahaha Kristen Sweeney: full cycle journey for me coming back in some of the organizations we collaborate with, our pharma companies, biotechs, and seeing like, ⁓ I can contribute in this space, but in the way that actually makes sense for me. ⁓ And that's very rewarding to, know, when you can kind of own your own talents and interests and also say like, I can do that in a way that's really meaningful. Yeah. ⁓ So. D'Shonda Brown: Yeah. Exactly. Kristen Sweeney: I'd love to dig into your experience at Essence because you talked about that pivot point and re-evaluation, but I imagine there's a ⁓ lot that you've maybe carried over and maybe bring quite a different perspective to corporate communications in pharma. ⁓ What would you say are some of the biggest lessons you learned during your time there? D'Shonda Brown: Yeah, so my time at Essence was amazing. I can't say anything negative about that experience. It helped me to really grow as a professional, especially because I was surrounded by so many passionate black women. being able to, you know that term where it's like you can't be what you can't see. It's like if I don't have any, if I don't have any women in the space, then I won't think that. Kristen Sweeney: Yes. D'Shonda Brown: a woman should be here or if I don't see any people of color in the space, maybe I feel like I don't belong here. But being able to see so many powerful black women in one room, in one space and advocating for so many different people and walks of life really amazed me that I wanna be like this. I wanna be able to carry that power into wherever I'm going and it helped me to be more confident in my storytelling and who I am as a person. people that I worked with that essence, were very sure of themselves, right? So I'm pretty sure you know as a marketing and commerce professional, it's one of those things where confidence will really take you places. Being able to know who you are, like you may not be able to identify OKRs and KPIs, you may not be able to do a graph, you may not be able to do A, B, and C, but your confidence and your ability to learn. is really what's going to carry you. So when I was at Essence, because it's a small team, I was able to learn so much at once. I was a good writer, but I learned how to be a great writer. I learned how to be a team leader because I had freelancers to work under me. I learned how to run a vertical because I was acting as a lead for the editorial of Girls United, which is the Gen Z vertical. was able to learn how to feel more confident on camera. So that was a lot of things that I had not really thought I could do or make a profession out of, but I did. And that was able to carry over into my job now because I am now confident in my ability to advocate for other people. I'm now confident in my ability to lead my peers and I'm now confident in my abilities. to translate stories to people who may not have heard the story before or to people that may not have previously cared. So it really also helped me with my people skills and being able to be the best leader that I can be for the health of a company and the reputation of a company. Kristen Sweeney: Yeah, it's so important and so valuable, like you said, of what you're actually able to see. I mean, I find the specificity of that, right? Like you can read advice all day long, but to see it in action is what resonates. And in a different but similar way, when we are building out a content asset or communications, like we're speaking with an executive, right? It's that like, OK, you're giving me the kind of business version of this, but what does that look like? And once you hear that example, that specificity, that's when you're like, and that's what makes other people go, uh-huh, that's me. And so I say that there's kind of a parallel there of really being able to see it on the ground, not just kind of reading advice about how to be confident or being in workshop, but really being able to take that in. Yeah. D'Shonda Brown: Right. Mm-hmm. And being able to watch it and being able to look and identify people that you want to be like. Like some of my, some of my mentors come from Essence, like Cori Murray. is, she is probably one of the baddest women I've ever met in life, in journalism, anywhere. And she is somebody that I had the pleasure of working closely with when I started. And she's actually the person that offered me the opportunity to work at Essence. I have always been in such awe of who she is with her confidence and who she is and when she runs meetings and being able to make decisions. So being able to actually see somebody that I look up to in action is really important when you're growing in your career and defining who you want to be as a professional. Kristen Sweeney: Yeah, definitely. And I can say personally that something I've struggled with, probably still do in some sense, is that I think this is common among women. that sometimes you want to be a little bit of a mess to be relatable. mean, sometimes you do feel like a mess, right? Except there are plenty of times I feel like a mess. D'Shonda Brown: Hahaha Kristen Sweeney: but almost using that or amplifying a little bit to feel relatable or not threatening. just kind of a lot of dynamics going on there. a couple of years ago, I was part of a 10,000 Small Businesses program, and it's a program run by Goldman Sachs and their goal over a course of years. They've, I think, got up to like 15 or 18,000 now. And it was an amazing program. D'Shonda Brown: Mm-hmm. Yes. Kristen Sweeney: And they bring you to New York at the end. And it's a very fantastic, like, few days there. But I remember, you know, to a person, the folks there have this, like, self-possession that just, like, you feel it, right? It's their energy. It's every part of them, but it's quite experiential. ⁓ Like, to be around them is to actually understand what it means. And I found it very... D'Shonda Brown: Yeah. Kristen Sweeney: I was like, ⁓ yeah, I can kind of let go of this, I'm all over the place, know, kind of a little bit of performative that I put on and just kind of try and stand in that confidence. I love ⁓ seeing you talk about that and that that's something you've had great role models for. ⁓ As part of, ⁓ you've mentioned, like as you're part of your approach today, you really think about D'Shonda Brown: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Kristen Sweeney: a blend of, you know, talked about loving writing, but also an emphasis on the visual, which is certainly, I think a little bit out of the box for corporate communications. It's pretty common that we come into these conversations and folks like myself say like, oh, I love writing. And that's kind of how I got here. Tell me a little bit about the, maybe this is the start of a conversation about. what else you might have carried from your time at Essence and if the visual kind of editorial ⁓ mindset is a part of that and how you've maybe been able to apply that in a really different environment. D'Shonda Brown: Yeah. So my love for art direction and graphics actually came completely out of nowhere. Um, I was, when I was running my company, Goldblooded Communications, like I was making media kits and one pagers for my clients because I didn't have any money. Like I was 21 straight out of college. I didn't have any. Kristen Sweeney: Okay. D'Shonda Brown: didn't have any savings so I couldn't pay somebody or outsource somebody to create these so I went on YouTube University and I started to teach myself how to do graphics and how to go on Canva and basic Adobe stuff so from there people noticed the work that I was doing it was like hey I saw that you did this for this client can you do mine and of course it was a bit of imposter syndrome like okay well I think the ones that I did were crappy but if you like it like Sure, okay. So I did a lot with that for a while. So it was like a little side gig if people wanted me to design something here or there as far as like a media kit, press kit, things like that. It was like my way of experimenting. And now that I look back at some of the things that I did, I would be like, oh my God, that's so cringe, but people thought it was worth it. So people thought that there was something in me that clearly I didn't see, but I kind of didn't pay attention to my... Canva and design skills for a while. I kind of just let it dry up in a sense. Well, I was a writer because I was really focused on writing. But when I had come to my current role, because it's such a small company and I'm pretty sure people who have worked at small companies can attest to it that one of the things that's pretty cool about working at a small company is that you get to put your hand in everything. So I run social media for my current company. And I realized that, oh, if I'm going to run social media, I need to create graphics and I need to create a look and I need to create a cadence. So I ended up falling into that and I was like, okay, this is, this is fun. Like I, I miss this. then people would ask me like, Hey, can you design this flyer or Hey, can you present a deck? And people would always give me compliments on it. Like, And then I would feel confident in it. And one of the things that I would say as far as the original question that you asked, there is a merger between art direction and storytelling, even though people think that it goes into completely different sectors. So for example, my best friend, she is a copy editor at a company and she works in tandem with the designer and the art director. One can't exist without the other. Kristen Sweeney: Nice. D'Shonda Brown: If you have words, then words are great. But when it comes to stylization, it's the typography. Like what kind of font are you using? What kind of graphic are you using? What's going to make it stand out? Like for example, there's this, there's actually this brand that she showed me that had a picture of a woman's groin area. And it said, you know, read my lips, we're having a sale. And I was like, ⁓ that's brilliant. It's shocking, but it's brilliant. And the thing that was so amazing was the fact that from that ad, you could see the synergy between the art director and the copywriter. Like, okay, if this is what you're writing, I have the perfect way to bring it to life. And you have maybe a couple seconds to capture somebody's attention with an image. So what can you do to make that stand out? So I like to make sure that It looks not just visually appealing, but it's also easy to understand from the audience that I'm trying to portray it to. Like if I'm doing a deck that somebody's just going to read, I'll include the information. But if I'm presenting this, I need it to be quick, easy, simple, to the point. When you're giving presentations, you need to be able to captivate an audience. When you're doing a flyer for an event, basic information. So it really is one of those things where it's like you can't... tell a story without having some type of art direction or visual storytelling angle to it because the two are more aligned than people would think. Just because they have two different titles doesn't mean that they don't coexist. Kristen Sweeney: Yeah, 100%. I love that. And I love the example you shared. I love the example you shared. This is something that I'm like, I don't think I'm very talented at design, but I think I have a pretty good eye. And ⁓ maybe that's like the worst possible place to be. I'm just critical with no abilities. ⁓ But it is interesting because I find it, and we are quite focused on words, you know, every little word is the name of the organization and a lot of A lot of what we create is thought leadership content, longer form content. So the words are the heart of what we're impacting. But at the same time, I'm very passionate. We've all seen the website that looks like it's from 2003. it's like, if you can't. So I almost think of it in layers, right? And I maybe don't. impact as much like the top layer of like super visual, that kind of creative campaign. like at a baseline, no one's gonna, no one's gonna, you've lost credibility from the visual. It doesn't matter. It could be Shakespeare on there, right? It doesn't matter. Like you've lost that credibility. And then there's kind of another layer that's like presentation. And this is things like, I'm really passionate about like how long form text is formatted. visually, like on a blog or on a website, right? And like, if it's messy, if it's too wide, it's the images are weird and just take up tons of space, like all that stuff, if the spacing is off, like that stuff again can be, can detract. Maybe it's not yet to the point where visual is adding a lot, but it's detracting from the ability of the language to make an impact. And then it kind of flips where visuals, know, infographics and more interactive. then like these elements. D'Shonda Brown: Yeah. Yeah. Kristen Sweeney: where that can become really, really additive as well. And that's kind of like another layer of it. But it is something I think about a lot. often with clients, will, ⁓ if we're working on a website, this is where it's really common. And I'm very passionate about trying to include in the engagement that we want to be part of that initial strategy team. We want to talk about where the content's placed and what it looks like and the content mapping and all of those pieces, because it's going to affect the ability to. D'Shonda Brown: Yeah. Kristen Sweeney: to resonate at the end of the day. I like, like I said, I have a lot of opinions on it, even if I could not do the beautiful design myself. D'Shonda Brown: No, but that's also good, like having an eye. Like you can have a great graphic designer, but if they don't portray what you're trying to get across, then maybe they don't have that sense of art direction. You can be a really good designer and have no sense of direction. So for you, is art direction. Like if you're able to tell that... the image behind the words is way too distracting or the story that we're trying to tell is not the image that you chose, that's also just as important. So don't say that you don't have that because you do. Like if you decide to take up graphic design, it'll actually help you because you know what you want to see before you create it. Kristen Sweeney: Yeah, yeah, interesting. Appreciate that. Yeah. I'm curious. I honestly earlier before our conversation, I was watching a webinar on lovable. So I know you've talked about technology. I would say good. 80 % of our conversations have some conversation around AI and what's happening there. But I'm curious how you're thinking about it, especially whether that's in relation to what the potential is, whether that's in relationship to limitations being in a more regulated environment. ⁓ What are you seeing that's really interesting to you right now that you feel like is ⁓ on the horizon, especially in industry? D'Shonda Brown: Yeah. Yeah, it's one of those things where I can totally admit when AI was on the jumping off point, I was a huge skeptic. I was like, ⁓ my God, this is like, robot. This is like the Jetsons. Like, what is this? Like, they're going to take over our jobs. Like, I was terrified. And I was terrified because it was unknown. It's kind of like, and I'm a huge nerd in this type of way, but I play the Sims. And whenever there's a kid who has a bad dream, it's because there's a monster under the bed. So you have two options. The kid can either tell their parent to spray the monster under the bed and then it goes away temporarily, or you can talk to the monster under your bed and then it's like, it's a homie. It's like, hey. So for me, instead of trying to distance myself from AI, I did a lot of research on it. Like, okay, maybe if I know more, then I'll be afraid less. And that's exactly what happened. I started doing research. I started watching videos on how journalists are embracing AI, how communications experts are embracing AI. And I can say, honestly, AI is one of those things where it's like, if you don't get with it, you're going to get behind it. And companies really should embrace what AI is doing. It doesn't mean that it's going to do all the work for you. You can use it as a sense of productivity. For me, one thing that I use for AI is meeting notes. Like I'll look for a meeting and I'll say, okay, so can you take the five key takeaways from this and send it to me? And then what I'll do is I'll take those five key takeaways and then I'll review it. It's always important to review what AI gives you because there are some things that are wrong or need to be fact checked or things that are misspelled, but it does help with organization and it does help with being able to Kristen Sweeney: Mmm. D'Shonda Brown: have a stream of consciousness that can then be transformed into thoughts. So for me, if I have to, even with graduate school, I'm currently in graduate school. If I have a thought that I'm trying to answer, I'll be like, okay, chat GPT. I'm going to run off the mouth of a stream of consciousness based on this answer. And I'm just going to answer it the best way I can. I'd love for you to tell me how I can organize these thoughts. So that way it sounds like it has an easier flow. Kristen Sweeney: Mm-hmm. D'Shonda Brown: Because before AI existed, that's something that I used to do myself. Like I would record myself and be like, ⁓ keep that, keep that, take that out. But with AI, it's able to actually help me with intellectual property that is mine while only serving as an assistant. So people are afraid of it. And I still have friends who are afraid of it, but it's one of those things where if you decide to use it as a tool and as an assistant, rather than somebody who's trying to take over your job, you'll see it as way more helpful. I like using AI as a collaborator. Very few times will I ask it for feedback. It's more so I'll tell it what to do and then it'll send me back something and then I'll be like, okay, well, this is a good start, but I want it to do this or I want it to look like this or I'll just take what they gave me and then I'll edit it myself. So it's all about embracing so that you don't fall behind the curve. Kristen Sweeney: Yeah, absolutely. ⁓ first, I too think about the Jetsons. But my big complaint is like, I am continuing to see the value in AI. But what I really want is Rosie the robot to do my laundry and my dishes for me. Like that is where we could really, I'd be all in. ⁓ I think you made a really important point. And this is something we find too, that like, it's got to start with D'Shonda Brown: Wonderful. with the idea. Kristen Sweeney: the ideas have to be unique. This is where I think the AI slop increasingly comes from is like, write me something on this, create something based on that without that context. ⁓ then the other piece, something that I think I'm really interested in right now is moving information around because there's so, when you stop and look at it, there's so many times where. D'Shonda Brown: Yes, good night. Kristen Sweeney: OK, someone sent me a resource to take a look at. So I've got to take a look at that resource. I've got to file it away for the future. Maybe I can't review it right now, so I need to do a task in my project management system to go back and review it later and then decide what am I actually doing with that information? That's a lot of steps that come up. in my experience, that's why an email sits in my inbox, because that's not a 30 second. answer. That's like thinking. I have to figure out what to do next. So I'm very interested in exploring like, can I make those things poof happen? I still have to go review it. Like that's the part I won't skip, but can I automate, you know, or kind of like ease the path of that just shifting information around between places? I think particularly when your communications con you have a lot of assets and a lot of information. You have to synthesize a lot. You're moving it around. You're sharing it with different stakeholders. ⁓ D'Shonda Brown: Yeah. Yep. Kristen Sweeney: So I am ⁓ interested to see what the limits are there while, as you said, still maintaining the core of my thoughts or our clients' thoughts. An executive or an expert we're interviewing, what they really think is going to be the core of what drives the communications we create. D'Shonda Brown: Absolutely, and I think he made such a good point because it's one of those things where people shouldn't feel like AI is gonna do all the work for them. It's like I kind of see AI as a dog. It's only as good as its trainer. So if you keep telling it to do something, it's gonna think that the way that it's doing it is correct. They're gonna give you generic information. They're gonna give you stuff that's at like the top of SEO. They're not really gonna do that much of a deep dive. Like if you ask chat GPT for general information on something, it'll give you the general information. But then you have to specify, Hey, I'm looking for specifically this. I'm looking for specifically that, like, what can you pull on this? As long as people, like you said, are in tune with authenticity, being able to not really rely on it. Cause I think that's where also people kind of get, people kind of use AI as a crutch sometimes to use it. all the time for every task. And I feel like that's something that's becoming a hindrance in the comms industry that originality is not where it used to be because people are not using that original brain power that actually forced us to think and brainstorm with other people. So I am interested to see where it goes and to hear other experts that you talk to as far as their thoughts and predictions and setbacks. Kristen Sweeney: Yeah, one of the most important things I think we do on our team is we actually evaluate things that we, there are things we've stopped doing with AI. So, for example, we were with our content briefs, have the. D'Shonda Brown: Mmm. Kristen Sweeney: the kind of resources we always had, and that included my perspective on the strategy and the outline, like an overview, kind of my like brain dump or vision, if you will, for it, some of the original source material, the interview, right, notes. And then we were also providing this kind of AI generated summary, again, of the source material. And it got to the point where it was like, this is not helping. And it's just like, D'Shonda Brown: Mm-hmm. Kristen Sweeney: one more thing to try and sort of assimilate and like not valuable. So it's just creating noise. ⁓ And so I think it's really important to also look and say, just because you feel Jurassic Park, just because you can't doesn't mean you should. So yeah, I think that that's, you know, that that culling and still being able to say like. D'Shonda Brown: Right. Right. Kristen Sweeney: OK, yes, we could add that. is this, yes, I get it took four seconds to generate. But is it actually adding value into our process? Or is it making things overly complicated? Because now we're sort of overwhelming people with information. D'Shonda Brown: Mm-hmm Absolutely. Kristen Sweeney: All right, I want to transition us into our one big idea. I'm excited to talk about this today. This is a chance for us to kind of dig in to one insight, experience, or aspect of your work that's had a meaningful impact on how you communicate. And our big idea to talk about today is guiding principles. So you have a personal set of guiding principles, ⁓ impact, strategy meets story, culture as currency, representation, and authenticity. ⁓ Talk to me a little bit about how you developed these principles as core values of you. D'Shonda Brown: Yeah, for sure. So my thing is with my guiding principles, I always like to make sure that what I'm doing is more than me. Right. So oftentimes people see comms as very, you know, selfish. Like I want you to know about my company. I want you to know about my product. I want you to know about why my client is the best, but take yourself out of it. Like what is the value that you're giving somebody else? So impact is something that I don't take lightly because whenever you're in a room with somebody, whether it's the way you talk, whether it's the way that you walk in, whether it's the feedback that you give, you're leaving an impact no matter what. Even if you're the person that doesn't talk, maybe people think that you're mousy or maybe people think that you're afraid to speak. It's about brand and reputation, but in the best way possible. Also with culture as being currency, that's something that I have. always been really, really, really passionate about because I grew up knowing that I am a black woman from the projects. And I've never tried to hide that. Like, obviously, I mean, look at me. I can't hide the fact that I'm black. But it's one of those things that I am very proud of. And it's something that I get to say that has, even though we're in a society where, you know, there's a lot of racial injustices and social economic downpour and whatnot. It's something that knowing my value as a black woman has really helped me to feel secure in who I am. And also that multi-layer purpose, right? Like culture doesn't just mean black or white. It means where you grew up. It means how you identify. It means maybe you're a proud queer person. Maybe you're proud non-binary. Maybe you're proud Muslim. Being able to stand your power when you feel like nobody else is standing up for you, that's important. And also being multicultural or being a student of the world is important because then you get to apply that way of thinking to any room that you're in. So say, for example, if you're working with a team that's creating, let's say, an advertisement for Juneteenth, you want to make sure that you have somebody in the room that can not only speak to that. but somebody who is culturally competent enough to say, I don't, I think that's going to be offensive. Or I don't think that has the message that we want to come across. So those guiding principles for me are things that I hold near and dear to my heart because if I feel like it's not hitting the way that it's supposed to with intention and making somebody feel good and making somebody feel seen, then at the end of the day, I didn't do my job as a person on this earth who feels like their purpose is to communicate and be kind and to make people's stories feel heard and make people's, you know, well-being be seen. I always like to make sure that I say I'm a human being, not a human doing. So I don't like to be transactional. I don't like to be like, I need this from you and this is what you need from me. I like to be able to come together and say, how can we make an impact together? How can we make sure that we're being culturally competent? And how can we make sure that we're doing what's best for the greater good and not just simply short-term goals? Kristen Sweeney: Yeah, I love that. I really appreciate the explanation of ⁓ culture as currency, too. ⁓ I just interviewed last night, we did a special evening edition of the podcast, ⁓ Stephanie Roberts. our listeners can check that out. But she ⁓ is an expat and has been living in Japan, ⁓ moved there from the US for the last four years. So we were having a conversation on international perspectives and what that kind of experience can bring. ⁓ I'm curious how. how these principles are playing out when you're thinking about your current role and in, ⁓ you know, whether that's patient populations or like the range of stakeholders you're interacting with, like what, how are you, how is that kind of like informing the work that you do right now or what considerations ⁓ within the pharma space are sort of like in conversation with those principles. D'Shonda Brown: Yeah, absolutely. So one of things that I can say that I've definitely started to fall in love with in my role is corporate social responsibility and social impact because it's like I said before, it's something that's bigger than me. It's something that's saying, okay, here's the company I work for and yes, we're awesome, but here's why we matter to the bigger community. And here are the people that we're partnering with and that we want in the room. So one thing that has helped as far as like, let's say internal or employee relations, asking people, hey, what'd you think about this partnership that we did? Or what feedback do you have? Because there has definitely been moments where I've missed the mark on something and maybe I didn't communicate something the way that I was supposed to. And it's also about accountability, right? Like if you're not conveying the message, talk to people who you feel like can give you best practice feedback and say to yourself, okay, this isn't personal. This is something that I need to take myself out of because, know, as communicators, we're very sensitive about the way that we communicate. And if we write a first draft of something, you're like in love with it, but then it gets picked apart. And then you feel like, ⁓ my God, like, why couldn't we just leave it alone? But at the end of the day, it's because you're working towards a common goal, right? So I always like to make sure when it comes to cultural competency that I'm keeping in mind, not just myself, but everybody else. If we're doing a diversity and inclusion initiative, what does that look like? If we're doing something for World Refugee Day, what does that look like? Whose expertise should we ask for? And also not just limiting it to certain people. So if somebody wants to be involved in Hispanic Heritage Month that's not Hispanic, that's awesome because that means that they want to learn more. If there's something that's going around about Ramadan, and somebody who's not from that community wants to learn more. That's amazing because now it shows that we're creating an internal culture where people are comfortable with learning about things that aren't their day to day norm and to become better global citizens. So for me, it really hits home with the employer relations and internal communications because when we feel good about what we're doing, we're able to bring that. to HCPs, we're able to bring that to patients, we're able to bring that to stakeholders, we're able to be able to talk about it on conference stages. it really does start from an internal culture of care, which we've had ourselves on at my company, and then working our way upwards. Kristen Sweeney: Yeah, I really appreciate that response and the emphasis on inclusion as broad and what do say, defined by intention is the qualification, right? Or like willingness to participate or openness or curiosity, it sounds like, like people who want to be involved versus a bar of either identity or expertise or experience within a certain segment. Because I do think that's how D'Shonda Brown: There's no Kristen Sweeney: can most effectively really foster greater understanding of one another is kind of from that point of view and foundation. ⁓ I'm interested, I know that the first time I encountered you at least ⁓ was actually a panel on the topic of DEI. ⁓ I'm curious how, especially in the context of corporate social responsibility, What changes you've seen broadly in the landscape around this conversation? think we're certainly in a different climate today than we have been. ⁓ And what you think is ⁓ maybe the most effective path forward or things that you're seeing, it does not have to be specific to your organization by any means, in an environment where you may want to do something but have to be more cautious than ever about risk associated with that. D'Shonda Brown: Yeah. Kristen Sweeney: Yeah, it's lot more polarizing than I think it was a few years ago. ⁓ D'Shonda Brown: Yeah, for sure. It's one of those things that I'm glad you said that it's bigger than my organization because, at the end of the day, it is. Like speaking for myself as a working professional, like let's not even talk about specifically pharma. Like let's just talk about period. There's things that are impacting, let's say, you and I as women, that even though it's very polarizing, it's one of those things that it impacts us. So it's about being able to have those hard conversations, having to be able to come together and putting differences aside. Like, yes, we're, we may be on two separate sides of the coin, but at the end of the day, somebody you know is being affected. Right. And then when it comes to companies or brands at large, you know, there are people who have, we've seen a lot of companies pull back on their DEI initiatives. And then that in turn affects their audience. But I've come to realize, you I was at first very, very pissed off about the fact that companies that I personally loved were pulling back on DEI because DEI isn't just me, it's every woman, every queer person, every underrepresented voice that I know. And I was pissed. It made me realize after talking to my father that it's not that these companies don't embrace DEI. And it's not that these companies don't want to embrace DEI. It's just like you said, that risk management factor. It's like, ⁓ if we talk publicly about D &I, our dollars get stripped from our investors. And then we can't do the work that we've been doing for the people that have been supporting us. So maybe they do the work, but maybe they're just being quiet about it. It's kind of like when people decide to protest, they're... way way way more ways to protest than just grabbing a picket fence and going out into the masses right some people post on social media some people site we donate some people attend groups some people write anonymous articles there's different ways to be able to be involved in d.i without feeling like you have to be bold and loud about it and i've come to realize that myself as an advocate because A con birth reaction if you see, ⁓ Target pulled back on DEI or ⁓ my god, American Eagle did this. It's like, it's very reactionary at first and it's one of those things where it becomes a pop culture conversation. But when you take pop culture out of it and when you just apply the humanization of it all, some people honestly may feel like they don't have a choice but to minimize their conversation in DEI. But that doesn't mean that they're not. doing the work. Like if they pull items off the shelves, how do know that doesn't mean that they still have amazing diverse company culture? How do you know that that doesn't mean that they donate to certain places? How do know that means that they're not having certain people in the room? So it is scary to feel like there are companies who no longer care about VR, ⁓ my God, they were voting to take away this initiative, but sometimes it's very. Most of the times it's bigger than us and we have to think about it from a non-reactionary standpoint. Kristen Sweeney: Yeah, it's interesting. Obviously, we're both in the business of visibility. ⁓ But I think there is definitely a way at the same time that the internet more broadly has made us feel like if you don't post about it, did it even happen? ⁓ D'Shonda Brown: Yeah. Yeah. Kristen Sweeney: Yeah, it did, right? So ⁓ I think that that's important too, to look at not just what's being said, because in some ways that conversation is maybe quieter on certain fronts, ⁓ but just like, this is top of mind for me because we're recording this kind of on the heels of International Women's Day. And anytime there's a day like that, there's the discourse of, there's the meta discourse, right? There's the celebrations and then there's the like... D'Shonda Brown: Yeah. Kristen Sweeney: should you be celebrating? Should you call it out? Shouldn't women be celebrated every day? Should they get half the year? Should they, like, did you do enough to sort of earn this reputation? And so it's always complicated. It's always complicated. ⁓ then there's, think, the personal level in which, like you said, we all are making our own choices about how we participate in the world, what kind of information we take in, and certainly... ⁓ there's definitely a lot of privilege in feeling like you have those choices, know, 100%. ⁓ And then, you know, that conversation around what are you doing to protect your mental health versus like, it's complicated. That's what I just always come back to. And at the end of the day, like, I think your point of view can evolve, but it is D'Shonda Brown: Yeah. Yeah. Kristen Sweeney: It can be really taxing in some ways. Sometimes that flow of, like you said, information and which company is doing this and which company is doing that. it can be very, it could take a lot of bandwidth to feel like it's hard to make a purchase without doing deep investigative corporate research, you know, to buy your toothpaste. ⁓ It's a, it's a challenge. ⁓ And I'm not saying it's. D'Shonda Brown: Yeah. Kristen Sweeney: doesn't have value, but it can be hard. ⁓ Speaking quite personally, honestly, it can be difficult to feel like you sort of, where you draw your own personal line on, have to just be okay with this, I accept it, I love the convenience of an Amazon package, going for it, whatever it is, right? Yeah. ⁓ D'Shonda Brown: Yeah, it is. Yeah, and it is one of those things where you said you have to you have to draw a personal line. Like I know that I am somebody that I'm very much ten toes down on things that I say. So if I say that I'm not supporting a certain company, I'm not going to support them. Now, it's not to say that I'm going to boast it on social media. I feel like actions speak louder than words. Like if I'm not supporting a certain cause, I'm not going to support it. Kristen Sweeney: Mm-hmm. D'Shonda Brown: If I believe, if I have beliefs in X, and Z, I don't have to boast about it all the time. It's just, you're going to see it in my actions. Now there are certain things I am going to profess. Like I'm very passionate about, about being a black woman. I very much believe in equality. I very much believe that everybody deserves to be who they are, love who they love, and just be as long as they're a good human being, there is a place for them. But I don't need to boast that all the time because you see it in the work that I do. You see it in the spaces that I show up in. You see it on the panels that I'm on, like you said. So it's one of those things where people also need to realize that advocacy doesn't always come in forms of loudness. It doesn't always come in the form of boldness because I'm someone who's bold, but I also know when to pull back. And I also know when I should really show up that works best for me and like you said, my mental health. Because who's to say if I put something on social media and people start attacking me, that would be a huge hit to my mental health because I know I'm not somebody that does well with her baffle and comments. I can't do that, at least from my personal brand. So there are things that I do stay away from on social, but everybody's different. Kristen Sweeney: Yeah. Yeah, really appreciate the conversation on this topic and just the thoughtful input here. ⁓ I want to, I know we're running a little low on time, so I want to make sure we ⁓ hit our lightning round segment. This is the last word. Every guest on the show gets the same five questions, so just go with your gut on these. Are you ready, Tashonda? D'Shonda Brown: Of course. Yay! Sure am. Kristen Sweeney: All right, question one, what's your favorite word to say out loud? D'Shonda Brown: My favorite word to say out loud is... Hm, geez. My favorite word to say out loud is probably, hm. That's probably hm. Yeah, if it's an audible noise, yeah. If I can say an audible noise, it's probably hm. Or it's like, whoa, okay. So probably that. Kristen Sweeney: Okay, what's or do you know from reading but you're not quite sure how to pronounce it? D'Shonda Brown: I would say there's a word that I always see and I think it has to do with, and I can't even say it correctly. Ooh, this is embarrassing. There's a word that I don't know if it's, no one makes fun of me here. Is it pecan or is it pecan? I still don't know. Kristen Sweeney: I think it depends on where you're from. D'Shonda Brown: Right? Because every time I say it, I'm just like, I don't know if there's a correct way. All right. Kristen Sweeney: I I say Pecan, but I think Pecan is a Southern baby. I think. I'll give you credit for both. I'll give you credit for both. I think you're good. ⁓ What's one phrase they're saying you wish could be retired for good? D'Shonda Brown: Thanks. Lit. I'm getting so sick of that word. Even I catch myself saying it. I'm just like, ⁓ my God, that's so, I don't like it. Kristen Sweeney: What's a communication practice or principle that's not negotiable for you? D'Shonda Brown: Being kind, like whether it's adding an emoji or I'm an explanation mark, just be nice. It's free. Kristen Sweeney: That's great. Good take on emojis and exclamation points too. A lot of advice out there about like, standard your power and you don't need it. But I love that perspective. And what's the last thing you read, or watched that really stuck with you? D'Shonda Brown: Thanks. Thanks. ⁓ the last thing I read, heard or watched. I was actually reading Jeanette McCurdy's book, ⁓ half as age. And I'm not even halfway through the book. But the thing that stuck with me was the fact that she was real and she was honest in her experience without, like you said earlier, without it feeling inauthentic or campy. She was really just talking in her tone of voice. And it really reaffirmed that you can tell your story and If it's raunchy, it's raunchy. And if it's funny, it's funny. And if it's serious, it's serious. But as long as you're authentic to what your voice is, that's what's going to captivate audiences. Kristen Sweeney: Yeah, and it doesn't have, not everything is for everyone too, right? But like I it's gonna resonate with the right people. Awesome. D'Shanda, thank you so much for joining us today. If our listeners wanna learn more about you, what are the best place or places for them to find you? D'Shonda Brown: Exactly. Exactly. Thanks. Yes, absolutely. So it's actually kind of ironic that I work in social and communications and I barely have platforms myself. But the best way to reach out to me is my LinkedIn. So it's going to be D apostrophe S H O N D A brown like the color. And then you can find my portfolio on my link tree. So it's going to be L I N K T R dot E E slash side S I G N E D Shonda. and add another sludge. So that's where can find me. Kristen Sweeney: Nice, and we'll include those links in the show notes as well. Thank you so much for this wonderful conversation. Really appreciate it. D'Shonda Brown: Cheers. Of course, thank you.