Latest / Free Therapy with Ben & Kevin / Why men shut down and how to get them to open up #25

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Why men shut down and how to get them to open up #25 · Free Therapy with Ben & Kevin

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: The world needs free therapy.
• 0:02
  Speaker 2: Yo, yo, yo. I'm Ben.
• 0:03
  Speaker 3: Hola, Benito.¿ Cómo estás?
• 0:05
  Speaker 2: What, you speak Spanish now?
• 0:07
  Speaker 3: Sí, claro. My girlfriend is Costa Rican, and so I
• 0:10
  Speaker 3: just signed up for a Spanish tutor. I'm learning Spanish.
• 0:13
  Speaker 2: I can speak Spanish.
• 0:14
  Speaker 3: You can?
• 0:14
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Yo tengo un gato en mis pantalones.
• 0:16
  Speaker 3: No, no, no. No es bien. Perdón. Los todos que
• 0:21
  Speaker 3: están escuchando.
• 0:21
  Speaker 2: Should we do the whole thing in Spanish?
• 0:22
  Speaker 3: Sorry, everyone's listening.
• 0:23
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 0:24
  Speaker 3: Bienvenidos a Free Therapy. Welcome to Free Therapy. Every week,
• 0:28
  Speaker 3: Ben and I sit down with a different therapist and
• 0:29
  Speaker 3: we talk about the stuff that everybody's struggling with, but
• 0:32
  Speaker 3: nobody says out loud.
• 0:33
  Speaker 2: This week, we sat down with therapist Christina Ferrari, who
• 0:36
  Speaker 2: came in with some amazing hot takes. She spoke about
• 0:40
  Speaker 2: something interesting, which was how modern therapy is failing men
• 0:44
  Speaker 2: and what men need now. different in a therapeutic approach.
• 0:48
  Speaker 2: It actually, to me, felt like very honest and real
• 0:50
  Speaker 2: and I definitely related to it.
• 0:51
  Speaker 3: And it's all about really how you get a man
• 0:54
  Speaker 3: to open up.
• 0:55
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 0:55
  Speaker 3: So anyone that has a man in their life or
• 0:58
  Speaker 3: is a man, you want to be more vulnerable, this
• 1:00
  Speaker 3: is a great episode. We also got into why women
• 1:02
  Speaker 3: may not be as good at relationships as we think.
• 1:06
  Speaker 2: What do you mean? Seriously?
• 1:06
  Speaker 3: It's a deep show. Enjoy it. We'll see you on
• 1:09
  Speaker 3: the other side.
• 1:28
  Speaker 2: Christina Ferrari, welcome to the show.
• 1:29
  Speaker 1: Thank you.
• 1:30
  Speaker 3: Welcome to Free Therapy. Thank you for having me.
• 1:31
  Speaker 2: We're so happy to have you. So here's a little
• 1:35
  Speaker 2: background on Christina.
• 1:36
  Speaker 3: Let's hear it, Benny. Give us the background.
• 1:38
  Speaker 2: Christina holds a master's in mental health counseling and is
• 1:40
  Speaker 2: a licensed professional counselor. And I was actually looking through
• 1:44
  Speaker 2: your website this morning because I wanted to make sure
• 1:46
  Speaker 2: I didn't mess anything up when I said your name.
• 1:47
  Speaker 2: And I saw something that was really interesting on your website.
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  Speaker 2: And you pointed out that you have been in therapy
• 1:52
  Speaker 2: for 15 years. And you explicitly said that on your website.
• 1:55
  Speaker 2: And that was great because I was like, oh, she's
• 1:57
  Speaker 2: practicing what she's preaching. Like, of course, therapists and everyone
• 2:00
  Speaker 2: should be in therapy. But you actually say it on
• 2:02
  Speaker 2: the website.
• 2:03
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's probably more than that at this point. I
• 2:05
  Speaker 1: probably have to update that website.
• 2:06
  Speaker 2: Okay. So while we were talking to Christina on the phone,
• 2:09
  Speaker 2: we talked to therapists before we get in here because
• 2:11
  Speaker 2: we want to make sure we have a topic to
• 2:12
  Speaker 2: go over. And we were talking about a few things.
• 2:15
  Speaker 2: And one thing you said really stood out to Kevin
• 2:17
  Speaker 2: and myself, which was you said that modern therapy is
• 2:20
  Speaker 2: failing men. And I was like, oh. Kevin and I
• 2:24
  Speaker 2: were like, hmm, interesting. And then we started to think
• 2:27
  Speaker 2: about it and we're like, actually, it could be. So
• 2:30
  Speaker 2: why do you think modern therapy is failing men?
• 2:33
  Speaker 1: Well, I think there's a feminization of therapy that has
• 2:37
  Speaker 1: really happened maybe over the last generation or so, which,
• 2:42
  Speaker 1: you know, we tend to overcorrect as a society. We
• 2:44
  Speaker 1: tend to like, right? It's like, and that's, I just
• 2:47
  Speaker 1: see that happening therapeutically. Like we've just overcorrected to this
• 2:50
  Speaker 1: other thing. And I To kind of piggyback on what
• 2:53
  Speaker 1: we were saying about therapists aren't required to be in therapy,
• 2:56
  Speaker 1: I don't think people really understand the training that we do.
• 2:59
  Speaker 1: And I think most therapists speak about it like, we
• 3:01
  Speaker 1: have to do all this training. I don't think we
• 3:04
  Speaker 1: have to do anywhere near enough training. And not like CEs,
• 3:09
  Speaker 1: continuing education and getting certified in this modality or that modality.
• 3:12
  Speaker 1: I don't really think that's altogether that meaningful. But actually
• 3:17
  Speaker 1: doing your own work and being led by somebody who's
• 3:21
  Speaker 1: like an expert in this, the reality of the situation
• 3:24
  Speaker 1: is that we do some of that sort of traditional
• 3:28
  Speaker 1: in the classroom sort of stuff where we're learning theory
• 3:31
  Speaker 1: and we're learning a bit about developmental psych. But you're
• 3:33
  Speaker 1: getting a very cursory view of it. There's just too
• 3:36
  Speaker 1: much to be able to digest. And then you are
• 3:38
  Speaker 1: ostensibly doing a lot of hours where you're getting supervision.
• 3:42
  Speaker 1: But that's entirely dependent on who your supervisor is. And
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  Speaker 1: a couple of things. One, most therapists are women, which
• 3:50
  Speaker 1: means most therapists are trained by women. And even the
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  Speaker 1: male therapists are now kind of, you know, that's sort
• 3:56
  Speaker 1: of like one degree over a long period of time.
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  Speaker 1: We're just moving toward a normative that's a feminine bend
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  Speaker 1: in terms of how we speak, how we think, how
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  Speaker 1: we orient, how we process. Like we've made that the standard.
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  Speaker 1: But it's a feminine standard.
• 4:16
  Speaker 3: Can you explain the difference? Like what is the difference
• 4:18
  Speaker 3: in how men and women process orient express?
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  Speaker 1: Well, like one example might be if a man is
• 4:25
  Speaker 1: being very direct as an example, right? Someone, a therapist
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  Speaker 1: and another woman might look at that as controlling. And
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  Speaker 1: it might be controlling as an example. But that's seen
• 4:39
  Speaker 1: as controlling as opposed to competent controlling. In some way.
• 4:43
  Speaker 1: And I could give you 100 examples of that where
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  Speaker 1: I do think that there's value in helping men to
• 4:50
  Speaker 1: be able to communicate in a way for their own benefit.
• 4:53
  Speaker 1: And I do a lot of relationship work. So obviously,
• 4:56
  Speaker 1: you know, in relationship to his female partner, more often
• 4:59
  Speaker 1: than not. But but we're also we make one wrong
• 5:03
  Speaker 1: and the other right. And I just see this consistent
• 5:07
  Speaker 1: pattern of of like continuing to move into a place
• 5:11
  Speaker 1: where Where therapy is like, first off, I think there's
• 5:14
  Speaker 1: a lot of professional handholding. Like a lot of how
• 5:17
  Speaker 1: does that make you feel? There's not a lot. Like
• 5:19
  Speaker 1: women are oriented toward expression and men are oriented toward completion.
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  Speaker 1: And we don't offer them that piece because we're not
• 5:27
  Speaker 1: supposed to tell them what to do and we're not
• 5:29
  Speaker 1: supposed to.
• 5:30
  Speaker 3: Can you say that again? Women are oriented toward, say
• 5:32
  Speaker 3: it again.
• 5:33
  Speaker 1: Women are oriented toward expression and men are oriented toward completion.
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  Speaker 3: That feels like it encapsulates so much of the dynamic
• 5:41
  Speaker 3: between men and women.
• 5:42
  Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. And the problem therapeutically is that expression is
• 5:47
  Speaker 1: seen as the correct way, right? Talking about it. Talk
• 5:52
  Speaker 1: about it. Talk about it.
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  Speaker 3: And that's why a couple of weeks ago I was
• 5:56
  Speaker 3: talking to a friend who said, if a girl told
• 5:58
  Speaker 3: me to get in therapy, I would never get into therapy.
• 6:01
  Speaker 3: And then I said, after a back and forth that
• 6:03
  Speaker 3: Ben and I had for like three minutes of like, really?
• 6:05
  Speaker 2: Why? What?
• 6:06
  Speaker 3: Why wouldn't? That's crazy. Why would you not? I said,
• 6:09
  Speaker 3: would you go to like a business performance coach? He goes, absolutely. Yeah.
• 6:13
  Speaker 3: I was like, what's the difference?
• 6:15
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, because I do think that there's I have
• 6:19
  Speaker 1: a whole concept we can kind of get into in
• 6:21
  Speaker 1: terms of like what men really need therapeutically. But I
• 6:25
  Speaker 1: think that part of the difference is there's still a
• 6:27
  Speaker 1: little bit of, you know, some trepidation on the part
• 6:31
  Speaker 1: of men, I think more so than women. A bit
• 6:34
  Speaker 1: of a stigma around being in therapy. Like something has
• 6:36
  Speaker 1: to be wrong in order for you to be in therapy. Which, A,
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  Speaker 1: also something being wrong is not inherently problematic.
• 6:41
  Speaker 3: You know, like, yeah, something's wrong.
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  Speaker 1: Probably that's okay. But also, like, just as a place
• 6:46
  Speaker 1: to go, a sounding board. I mean, like I said,
• 6:48
  Speaker 1: I've been in therapy now, like, I think maybe 16,
• 6:50
  Speaker 1: 17 years now. I still go not because my life's
• 6:54
  Speaker 1: going to fall apart if I don't, but because that's
• 6:56
  Speaker 1: a meaningful place for it to just be about me for,
• 6:58
  Speaker 1: you know, 45 minutes. So I think there's a piece
• 7:01
  Speaker 1: of that. And I think there's a piece of like
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  Speaker 1: everything gets pathologized then. Like directness is pathologized. And it's
• 7:08
  Speaker 1: not to say that it's not problematic at times. But
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  Speaker 1: first you have to understand the value of that or
• 7:14
  Speaker 1: the value of stoicism or the value of completion as
• 7:18
  Speaker 1: an example. Because then we end up getting into this
• 7:20
  Speaker 1: dynamic where it's like she wants to talk everything to death.
• 7:24
  Speaker 1: You know, that's his experience. And her experience is like,
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  Speaker 1: you know, he's just trying to like, OK, OK, OK,
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  Speaker 1: let's get to the part where it's over.
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  Speaker 3: Right.
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  Speaker 1: And that happens a lot therapeutically as well.
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  Speaker 2: I was looking online for some of this stuff and
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  Speaker 2: I read this. I'm going to read this quote from
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  Speaker 2: the APA of the psychologist. So it says a 2005
• 7:40
  Speaker 2: psychologist interviewed by the APA argued that psychology itself might
• 7:44
  Speaker 2: partly contribute to men's difficulty engaging in therapy. This guy
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  Speaker 2: pointed out that therapists are commonly trained to use reflective,
• 7:51
  Speaker 2: feeling-centered questions that don't necessarily open up every male client.
• 7:55
  Speaker 2: Modern therapy gives men a mirror when they're looking for
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  Speaker 2: a toolkit. Exactly.
• 8:00
  Speaker 3: Exactly.
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  Speaker 1: Which is why if I call the work I do coaching,
• 8:03
  Speaker 1: they're like, sign me up. And then I sneak in
• 8:07
  Speaker 1: the therapy, which I have a process for doing that.
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  Speaker 1: But I think there's a lot of truth to that.
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  Speaker 1: There's this There's such a pushback against telling, you're not
• 8:17
  Speaker 1: supposed to tell your client what to do therapeutically. I
• 8:20
  Speaker 1: don't totally buy that. I mean, I understand the point
• 8:24
  Speaker 1: of it and there's some real truth to it. But
• 8:26
  Speaker 1: if a guy comes with a problem, he wants a solution.
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  Speaker 1: And he doesn't want to just say, you just say, well,
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  Speaker 1: how does that make you feel? He's like, I feel
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  Speaker 1: like shit. I mean, it's not that complicated. How do
• 8:37
  Speaker 1: I fix it?
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  Speaker 2: Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: And so I think that because I really don't believe
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  Speaker 1: that therapists are trained altogether that well, I just happened,
• 8:45
  Speaker 1: even if I didn't have a degree, I got my
• 8:48
  Speaker 1: training primarily because I've been with a master clinician. I
• 8:53
  Speaker 1: just lucked out. And I was trained by a guy.
• 8:56
  Speaker 1: I was trained by a guy. And he was trained
• 8:58
  Speaker 1: by a guy. So I'm kind of getting that male lineage. However,
• 9:02
  Speaker 1: because I'm a woman, I can bring both to the table.
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  Speaker 1: So I can cognitively be in my masculine where it's like, OK,
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  Speaker 1: this is where I think this is where we decided,
• 9:11
  Speaker 1: you know, him and I together collaboratively. This is where
• 9:13
  Speaker 1: he wants to go. So like what's happening in this moment?
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  Speaker 1: How am I? Am I leading him more and more
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  Speaker 1: in that direction? And then somatically and listening to what
• 9:20
  Speaker 1: he's saying, how would that land with me if I
• 9:22
  Speaker 1: were his partner? What's coming up for me? Like, what's
• 9:24
  Speaker 1: the energy of my body? And I don't think a
• 9:26
  Speaker 1: lot of clinicians are kind of able to do both.
• 9:29
  Speaker 1: Most women do. it's interesting because there's so much conversation
• 9:33
  Speaker 1: around how women have cultivated so much more masculine capacity
• 9:36
  Speaker 1: in the last generation. And again, I understand what they're saying.
• 9:39
  Speaker 1: What they're saying is basically like, we can make our
• 9:42
  Speaker 1: own money and take care of ourselves in that way.
• 9:45
  Speaker 1: But in terms of like containment, structure, direction, groundedness, presence, rootedness, awareness, no.
• 9:55
  Speaker 1: Most women can not do any of those things.
• 9:57
  Speaker 3: Yeah. Well, on that note, it feels like there's been
• 10:01
  Speaker 3: a subduing of the polarization between masculine and feminine, right?
• 10:05
  Speaker 3: So like you're saying the feminine has become more masculine
• 10:09
  Speaker 3: in those ways. And then also you talk about the
• 10:11
  Speaker 3: feminization of therapy.
• 10:13
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 10:14
  Speaker 3: Also, I think the feminization of culture.
• 10:16
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
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  Speaker 3: In a lot of ways. And the masculinity is bad.
• 10:19
  Speaker 2: Right.
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  Speaker 3: Which is not true. There's toxic aspects of masculinity that
• 10:24
  Speaker 3: are bad. But you actually want the support of providing
• 10:28
  Speaker 3: loving aspects of masculinity to remain in a culture. Men
• 10:32
  Speaker 3: want more of a completion, more of a solution-minded approach
• 10:36
  Speaker 3: to therapy.
• 10:37
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 10:37
  Speaker 3: Should men just be going to more coaching than therapy?
• 10:41
  Speaker 3: What's the solution here?
• 10:42
  Speaker 1: Yeah, well, now there's this whole kind of debate, right,
• 10:45
  Speaker 1: in the world, like coaches are shitting on therapists and
• 10:48
  Speaker 1: therapists are shitting on coaches. And, I mean, you can
• 10:51
  Speaker 1: have really amazing coaches and really crappy ones and vice
• 10:54
  Speaker 1: versa with therapists. So I don't think it's so much that–
• 10:56
  Speaker 1: and it's an arbitrary distinction as well. People argue me
• 11:00
  Speaker 1: on that, but I actually think that's pretty true. We
• 11:02
  Speaker 1: as therapists need to take a hard look at, like,
• 11:04
  Speaker 1: what it is we're actually offering here, particularly if we're
• 11:06
  Speaker 1: going to start to compete with coaches. Because I do
• 11:09
  Speaker 1: think that there's something therapeutically– valuable that you can't get
• 11:13
  Speaker 1: from a coaching model. But if we're not willing to
• 11:16
  Speaker 1: like also coach a little bit, we're going to be
• 11:20
  Speaker 1: losing out because it's a long time to get to
• 11:23
  Speaker 1: the really deep stuff where you see the reward of that.
• 11:26
  Speaker 1: And you need to give particularly guys like give them
• 11:29
  Speaker 1: some quick wins.
• 11:30
  Speaker 2: I read this thing online. It said to speak to
• 11:32
  Speaker 2: a guy, a therapist could say, you've learned how to
• 11:35
  Speaker 2: succeed at work. Now let's learn how to succeed at relationships, family,
• 11:40
  Speaker 2: intimacy and happiness. Like if you frame it as success
• 11:44
  Speaker 2: or mission driven or tools, they're like, oh, it's like
• 11:48
  Speaker 2: a metric. But then again, like why are men more
• 11:53
  Speaker 2: so metric driven?
• 11:54
  Speaker 1: But also like who cares why? They just are.
• 11:56
  Speaker 3: Yeah, they are. You are. We all are, yeah. But
• 11:58
  Speaker 3: I also saw an amazing piece by John Gottman, the
• 12:02
  Speaker 3: relationship therapist who I love. And he was like men–
• 12:06
  Speaker 3: just want to know where they can get the points. Right.
• 12:09
  Speaker 1: Where can they win?
• 12:10
  Speaker 3: Where can they win? Tell them. Yeah. They said most
• 12:14
  Speaker 3: men are just incompetent. They actually just don't know what
• 12:17
  Speaker 3: you need. Right. And so help them, give them a roadmap,
• 12:21
  Speaker 3: give them a game to play and they'll play it. Yeah.
• 12:25
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah.
• 12:25
  Speaker 1: No, I totally agree. And women don't want to take
• 12:28
  Speaker 1: responsibility for the fact that we aren't as clear in
• 12:33
  Speaker 1: our communication as we believe that we are. Because it
• 12:35
  Speaker 1: makes sense to us. Like if a woman says that
• 12:37
  Speaker 1: to a woman, we understand what you're talking about. So
• 12:40
  Speaker 1: we think it makes sense, but it doesn't always make sense.
• 12:43
  Speaker 3: But I also think for guys, you know what she wants.
• 12:48
  Speaker 3: You know what she likes. Like she loves flowers. So
• 12:52
  Speaker 3: just buy flowers. It's $ 25. You know, like I catch
• 12:57
  Speaker 3: myself going like I pass by a flower shop and
• 13:00
  Speaker 3: I'm like, I just keep driving. But why?
• 13:02
  Speaker 2: Why?
• 13:03
  Speaker 3: Why is it so hard for men to just do
• 13:07
  Speaker 3: the things that we know our partners love?
• 13:10
  Speaker 1: But this is why I think you guys and guys
• 13:13
  Speaker 1: like you speaking, because when I say something like that,
• 13:16
  Speaker 1: it's always the man's fault. Here we go again. Women
• 13:19
  Speaker 1: are perfect. They never, I mean, if you go on my,
• 13:21
  Speaker 1: you'll see it. The comments are just like, if I
• 13:23
  Speaker 1: say anything about what a guy can do, here's how
• 13:25
  Speaker 1: you might want to think about this. Here's a, that's
• 13:28
  Speaker 1: all I get from men every single time, every single time.
• 13:31
  Speaker 1: So I think it needs to come from a guy,
• 13:33
  Speaker 1: but I know like, you know, when I, like I
• 13:36
  Speaker 1: traveled to come here and I staying in this amazing
• 13:39
  Speaker 1: place in Topanga and it's like, I got fresh sourdough
• 13:42
  Speaker 1: bread and there's and I walked out and the sun's
• 13:44
  Speaker 1: like shining and the birds and I am dancing around
• 13:47
  Speaker 1: the kitchen in my I mean nobody was there to
• 13:49
  Speaker 1: see it but like you know in my underwear and
• 13:51
  Speaker 1: like you want that energy from a woman create the
• 13:55
  Speaker 1: structure for her to be able to relax into that's
• 13:58
  Speaker 1: yeah so the flowers are yes we like flowers but
• 14:01
  Speaker 1: what we want is like that kind of that little,
• 14:04
  Speaker 1: you know, girly sort of energy of like, oh, I
• 14:07
  Speaker 1: get to make art with this thing or I get
• 14:08
  Speaker 1: to make, you know, something beautiful with this.
• 14:11
  Speaker 2: Well, maybe I think why guys can't do it from
• 14:14
  Speaker 2: a typical male perspective is the pressure they feel to
• 14:17
  Speaker 2: be a provider, the pressure they feel to be successful
• 14:20
  Speaker 2: for their woman, I think takes them out of the
• 14:23
  Speaker 2: little moments of, oh, I'm driving by, let me get
• 14:25
  Speaker 2: some flowers, let me pick up sourdough bread because their
• 14:27
  Speaker 2: brains aren't even considering it.
• 14:30
  Speaker 3: That's part of the problem is that we're so focused
• 14:31
  Speaker 3: as men on like, Money, money, money. I have to
• 14:34
  Speaker 3: have success. I have to be enough. I have to
• 14:35
  Speaker 3: be enough to make money. That we're not actually focusing
• 14:38
  Speaker 3: on what our partners actually want, which is presence, support, attunement, love,
• 14:46
  Speaker 3: like foundation, giving, like all these things. But it's interesting.
• 14:52
  Speaker 3: It goes back to, I do think, the difference between
• 14:56
  Speaker 3: why men will happily sign up for a coach but
• 14:59
  Speaker 3: are so averse to therapy. is because we see that
• 15:05
  Speaker 3: this is going to get us success financial, but the therapy,
• 15:09
  Speaker 3: it opens us up to a bit of vulnerability, a
• 15:13
  Speaker 3: bit of this that we don't want to tap into
• 15:15
  Speaker 3: when it's really the pathway to all the success that
• 15:19
  Speaker 3: we want. Exactly.
• 15:20
  Speaker 1: Yeah, you have to be willing to... I'll sort of
• 15:23
  Speaker 1: sometimes say to guys, I'm like, listen, you know, if
• 15:25
  Speaker 1: you're going to jump out of an airplane, right, we're
• 15:27
  Speaker 1: going to, we're going to look at the safety records
• 15:30
  Speaker 1: of this pilot and this, you know, and we're going
• 15:32
  Speaker 1: to check the pack and we're going to check, we're
• 15:34
  Speaker 1: going to do all the things. But at the end
• 15:35
  Speaker 1: of the day, no matter how many times, there's still
• 15:37
  Speaker 1: a moment where you have to jump out of the
• 15:38
  Speaker 1: plane and hope that the parachute opens. Like you can
• 15:41
  Speaker 1: only do so much before you have to take a chance.
• 15:44
  Speaker 1: And so I try to both give them little wins
• 15:46
  Speaker 1: along the way. So you trust me. It's like, I know,
• 15:49
  Speaker 1: I know the parachute's going to open because I've opened
• 15:51
  Speaker 1: it 10 billion times, but But also like the $ 10
• 15:54
  Speaker 1: billion the first time it might not open, that's part
• 15:56
  Speaker 1: of the risk you have to take. But your nervous
• 15:58
  Speaker 1: system gets acclimated to doing that. And then it doesn't
• 16:01
  Speaker 1: feel like you might die. It just feels like, okay, well,
• 16:04
  Speaker 1: we'll see.
• 16:04
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. And it's like when... how much I love
• 16:24
  Speaker 2: Scott Galloway and what he is doing for the loneliness
• 16:26
  Speaker 2: male epidemic. I really support it. But he's recently been
• 16:28
  Speaker 2: talking about how men shouldn't be in therapy because therapy
• 16:31
  Speaker 2: as a whole is not serving men the way it's
• 16:34
  Speaker 2: serving other people. And to your point, I guess I
• 16:38
  Speaker 2: was disagreeing with him and I still disagree on like
• 16:40
  Speaker 2: a fundamental level. But I do think overall, modern therapy,
• 16:44
  Speaker 2: like you're saying, is not actually leading a guy towards
• 16:47
  Speaker 2: getting better. It's trying to fit him into a box
• 16:48
  Speaker 2: that he's not a part of. And so I was like, well,
• 16:50
  Speaker 2: what are the solutions here? Maybe after this conversation, I'm
• 16:53
  Speaker 2: thinking maybe a man should be more clear about what's
• 16:57
  Speaker 2: worked for him and what hasn't worked for him in
• 16:59
  Speaker 2: his life and bringing that into the session, right? If
• 17:01
  Speaker 2: a guy's like, oh, this has worked well for me
• 17:03
  Speaker 2: when it comes to work, but when my boss does this,
• 17:04
  Speaker 2: it doesn't work for me. Or when my parents did this,
• 17:07
  Speaker 2: it worked. Like giving the therapist more, I guess, ammunition
• 17:12
  Speaker 2: to be more direct and help them more and guide
• 17:15
  Speaker 2: them in a way that typical therapy isn't really doing.
• 17:18
  Speaker 1: Yeah, direct and directive, I would say, which is different
• 17:21
  Speaker 1: than telling them what to do. I mean, they ultimately
• 17:23
  Speaker 1: have full agency there. I pulled this phrase from someone
• 17:27
  Speaker 1: a long time ago. It was about coaches, but like
• 17:30
  Speaker 1: from sports teams, it was like the best coaches are
• 17:32
  Speaker 1: managers of personalities. And that's something that I brought into
• 17:37
  Speaker 1: myself as a parent, but I also bring into myself
• 17:40
  Speaker 1: as a therapist, which is, Who are you? How do
• 17:44
  Speaker 1: I reach you? What do you need in this moment?
• 17:46
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 17:47
  Speaker 1: Like I think where guys struggle, women have our own problems. But,
• 17:51
  Speaker 1: you know, it's like to be able to hear this
• 17:54
  Speaker 1: is something to look at without making it a statement
• 17:57
  Speaker 1: about the totality of who you are. And I think
• 17:59
  Speaker 1: in relationship that happens a lot where guys hear a
• 18:04
  Speaker 1: criticism or, you know, whatever word of the day we're
• 18:06
  Speaker 1: using there. And then they make it about a total failure. Also,
• 18:11
  Speaker 1: women suck at communicating those things to guys. So I'm like,
• 18:14
  Speaker 1: I get why you say it, because she just said
• 18:16
  Speaker 1: it to you in this really attacking kind of a way,
• 18:19
  Speaker 1: which gets me onto my whole, I think women are
• 18:21
  Speaker 1: just as bad at relationships as men are. I don't
• 18:23
  Speaker 1: think that we're any.
• 18:24
  Speaker 3: Better at it. Yeah, there is a weird thing where
• 18:26
  Speaker 3: we think that women are better at relationships than men.
• 18:29
  Speaker 1: I don't know where that came from. Women think women
• 18:31
  Speaker 1: are better at relationships. I probably, I don't know.
• 18:34
  Speaker 2: Aren't they?
• 18:35
  Speaker 3: Ben knows his girlfriend's better at relationships than he does.
• 18:37
  Speaker 1: She might be.
• 18:39
  Speaker 3: She might be.
• 18:39
  Speaker 2: Just like in general, like if you look at a
• 18:41
  Speaker 2: hundred guys, 95 of them would say that women are
• 18:45
  Speaker 2: better at relationships than they are. Yeah.
• 18:47
  Speaker 1: I don't think they'd be right about that. I think
• 18:49
  Speaker 1: that we're, we're a couple of things. We're better at
• 18:53
  Speaker 1: verbalizing things. We have more language for it. So We
• 18:56
  Speaker 1: can make a better argument for our perspective because, you know,
• 19:00
  Speaker 1: we have more access to that. But, you know, I'll
• 19:05
  Speaker 1: watch a dynamic happening between a couple and I see
• 19:08
  Speaker 1: what he's doing and why it's activating her nervous system.
• 19:11
  Speaker 1: It's very clear to me what he's saying and how
• 19:13
  Speaker 1: he's saying it and the story she's telling herself about it.
• 19:16
  Speaker 1: which he has responsibility for because he's, you know, he's
• 19:19
  Speaker 1: saying it like he's pretending that he's not doing that
• 19:22
  Speaker 1: thing that she thinks he's doing. And it 100 percent
• 19:24
  Speaker 1: is doing that thing. It's all happening. And her reaction
• 19:28
  Speaker 1: to that is equally crappy. And I think that that
• 19:32
  Speaker 1: sometimes she gets the moral authority there. Well, I wouldn't
• 19:34
  Speaker 1: be doing X if he wasn't doing Y. I'm sorry.
• 19:37
  Speaker 1: I don't care what he's doing. Like, you still have
• 19:39
  Speaker 1: a responsibility here for the way that you're communicating back
• 19:43
  Speaker 1: to him.
• 19:43
  Speaker 3: And.
• 19:44
  Speaker 1: I don't think women are particularly good at communicating from
• 19:48
  Speaker 1: a regulated place. I think we really suck at it actually.
• 19:51
  Speaker 3: I've seen that in relationships we're not saying that.
• 19:56
  Speaker 1: Men are better No, no, everyone's bad.
• 19:59
  Speaker 3: We're just saying that.
• 20:00
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 20:00
  Speaker 3: And I, I do agree with that though.
• 20:02
  Speaker 2: People just generally aren't good at relationships.
• 20:04
  Speaker 3: People are not good at relationships. Relationships are hard for
• 20:07
  Speaker 3: human beings, but to point the finger and be like,
• 20:10
  Speaker 3: it's them, not me, then relinquishes all responsibility in your
• 20:14
  Speaker 3: part in the relationship.
• 20:15
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 20:16
  Speaker 1: And I come from that 100 percent, 100 percent model,
• 20:18
  Speaker 1: which is I do my 100 percent irrespective of what
• 20:21
  Speaker 1: you do, which gives you the most agency and influence
• 20:23
  Speaker 1: to change more than anything else. Like just focus on yourself,
• 20:27
  Speaker 1: focus on yourself. And people will hear that as a
• 20:29
  Speaker 1: place of like, oh, well, the other person, you know,
• 20:31
  Speaker 1: now I doesn't have to do anything. And I was like, no,
• 20:34
  Speaker 1: because what might end up happening is like not the
• 20:36
  Speaker 1: relationship for you. That's going to give you the clarity.
• 20:39
  Speaker 3: If they're not showing up with their part, then you're like, hey,
• 20:41
  Speaker 3: I need you to show up. I'm fully here.
• 20:43
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 20:43
  Speaker 3: You're like. You're keeping your side of the street clean.
• 20:46
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 20:47
  Speaker 3: If it's clean, eventually they're going to look over and
• 20:49
  Speaker 3: be like, fuck.
• 20:51
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 20:51
  Speaker 3: My grass is long. There's weeds and it's perfect over there.
• 20:55
  Speaker 3: All the shit that's happening that I hate is my fault.
• 20:58
  Speaker 1: Let me fix it. If I'm doing something that's bothersome
• 21:01
  Speaker 1: to you and I don't have the capacity to be
• 21:03
  Speaker 1: able to hear it in that moment, which is a
• 21:04
  Speaker 1: separate issue, but let's just say I don't, and even
• 21:08
  Speaker 1: if you're 1% responsible for that, you focus on your 1%,
• 21:12
  Speaker 1: It will become glaringly obvious what my part is because
• 21:16
  Speaker 1: I can no longer make it about you because you've
• 21:19
  Speaker 1: cleaned up your side. So one of two things is
• 21:21
  Speaker 1: going to happen. Either I'm going to have a moment of, aha,
• 21:24
  Speaker 1: I need to look at this thing or I'm not.
• 21:26
  Speaker 1: And there's your answer.
• 21:28
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 21:29
  Speaker 3: I feel like I see this all the time in relationships,
• 21:32
  Speaker 3: observing my parents, friends. One person says something that was
• 21:39
  Speaker 3: not thought through. or does something that was not thought through.
• 21:42
  Speaker 3: They slipped, they missed, okay? The other person, instead of
• 21:48
  Speaker 3: communicating it in a calm, reasonable way, gets angry. Dysregulated
• 21:53
  Speaker 3: nervous system blows up. The other person then gets angry
• 21:57
  Speaker 3: because they all of a sudden have blown up at them.
• 21:59
  Speaker 3: And it becomes this thing where you're not able to
• 22:02
  Speaker 3: actually look at what happened because you're now just going
• 22:05
  Speaker 3: back and forth about the nervous system dysregulations.
• 22:08
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 22:09
  Speaker 1: When you're bringing your relationship into a court of law, right?
• 22:12
  Speaker 3: Explain that.
• 22:14
  Speaker 1: We're not fighting about the thing we think we're fighting about,
• 22:16
  Speaker 1: but we bring the relationship into a court of law.
• 22:19
  Speaker 1: And a lot of times then the therapist acts as
• 22:21
  Speaker 1: judge and jury. And because she's a woman, she's usually
• 22:23
  Speaker 1: going to side with a woman, right? Like I see
• 22:25
  Speaker 1: this all the time. And we're going to debate the
• 22:28
  Speaker 1: facts of the case. Who started it? Who was the
• 22:31
  Speaker 1: worst thing? And it becomes really sort of like, Like
• 22:36
  Speaker 1: there's a legalization of it, that there has to be
• 22:39
  Speaker 1: a correct one. Therefore, there has to be an incorrect one.
• 22:42
  Speaker 1: There has to be a winner. Therefore, there has to
• 22:44
  Speaker 1: be a loser. And we fight to the death over
• 22:46
  Speaker 1: these things that probably the fight probably started maybe five
• 22:50
  Speaker 1: minutes before, an hour before, a day before. Nobody even
• 22:53
  Speaker 1: really knows because they're not attuned to their nervous system
• 22:58
  Speaker 1: what actually happened there. And if you're going to do
• 23:01
  Speaker 1: relationship well, the most important thing to be able to
• 23:04
  Speaker 1: do is be the person that when you are handed
• 23:06
  Speaker 1: a little bit of a crap sandwich, you don't lose
• 23:09
  Speaker 1: your mind about it. Women. Women. Just as much as guys,
• 23:15
  Speaker 1: if not more, honestly.
• 23:17
  Speaker 3: But both.
• 23:18
  Speaker 1: Yeah, both.
• 23:19
  Speaker 3: Really both.
• 23:19
  Speaker 1: I think men tend to like do one of two things.
• 23:22
  Speaker 1: They either tend to like shut down, you know. Or
• 23:26
  Speaker 1: they tend to summarily dismiss it as like not meaningful,
• 23:30
  Speaker 1: not significant, you know, whereas then that just enrages her
• 23:33
  Speaker 1: in whatever way. So we have our kind of different
• 23:36
  Speaker 1: ways of doing it, but they're equally problematic. So I
• 23:39
  Speaker 1: have a thought around like real therapy for men, which
• 23:43
  Speaker 1: is like my little acronym for like what guys really need. Yeah.
• 23:47
  Speaker 1: I'm happy to share.
• 23:47
  Speaker 3: Share it, please.
• 23:48
  Speaker 1: So real therapy, the R is respect. And I think
• 23:53
  Speaker 1: first and foremost, like when I work with a guy,
• 23:55
  Speaker 1: I want him to know that not just I respect him,
• 23:58
  Speaker 1: but I respect that what got him to that place
• 24:01
  Speaker 1: in some ways has served him, right? Like there are
• 24:04
  Speaker 1: elements about what he's bringing to the table that are valuable,
• 24:08
  Speaker 1: that are meaningful, that have served him and served him
• 24:11
  Speaker 1: well sometimes, not just only, well, yeah, they served you,
• 24:13
  Speaker 1: but now you've outgrown it. I mean, there's all that
• 24:15
  Speaker 1: part of it too. But like, I really understand what
• 24:18
  Speaker 1: it is you're saying, what it is you're experiencing, what
• 24:21
  Speaker 1: it is you desire. Like I'm not coming, we're not
• 24:24
  Speaker 1: coming to the relationship where you have to then just
• 24:28
  Speaker 1: acquiesce to my perspective right away. First and foremost, I
• 24:31
  Speaker 1: want to make sure that you understand that I understand
• 24:34
  Speaker 1: you and that I respect that this is not just
• 24:37
  Speaker 1: you being an ass in this moment, right? Like there's
• 24:40
  Speaker 1: some real value you're bringing to the table. The E
• 24:42
  Speaker 1: is for expertise. Why do guys like coaching and not therapy?
• 24:47
  Speaker 1: Because if you tell a guy, hey, I built a
• 24:50
  Speaker 1: you know, $ 5 million company or $ 20 million company. And
• 24:54
  Speaker 1: here's how I did it. And I can see in
• 24:55
  Speaker 1: you that you have the capacity to do it too.
• 24:57
  Speaker 1: And I'm going to tell you how to get there.
• 24:59
  Speaker 1: Every guy is going to want to do that. So
• 25:02
  Speaker 1: I have to demonstrate a level of expertise, which rarely
• 25:04
  Speaker 1: is about like, here's my Ivy league education, or here's
• 25:07
  Speaker 1: how many hours I did, or here's, it's like, I
• 25:09
  Speaker 1: got to offer you something valuable. So the first session
• 25:12
  Speaker 1: I have with any guy, I'm always, I want him
• 25:14
  Speaker 1: to walk away and think to himself, wow, I hadn't
• 25:17
  Speaker 1: thought about that before, or I hadn't seen that thing before.
• 25:20
  Speaker 1: That's interesting to me, or I hadn't noticed that perspective.
• 25:23
  Speaker 1: I want him to believe and trust and start to
• 25:26
  Speaker 1: see that I can take him someplace. I'm an expert,
• 25:29
  Speaker 1: not just because of the letters after my name, but
• 25:32
  Speaker 1: like a really applied thing. And then the A is
• 25:35
  Speaker 1: for action. So there's a lot of insight in therapy
• 25:39
  Speaker 1: and not a lot of action, which I think is,
• 25:40
  Speaker 1: I don't understand it. I don't understand why that's true,
• 25:44
  Speaker 1: why we've moved so far away. I think we're so
• 25:47
  Speaker 1: afraid to tell people what to do, which sometimes can
• 25:50
  Speaker 1: be a really valuable intervention. We could spend the next
• 25:54
  Speaker 1: six months trying to lead you to water, or I
• 25:57
  Speaker 1: could just be like, here's the lake, go drink from it,
• 26:00
  Speaker 1: and then we'll see what happens. I don't think everything
• 26:03
  Speaker 1: therapeutically needs to be such a protracted process. And so
• 26:07
  Speaker 1: there's that piece of it, but there's also like, If
• 26:10
  Speaker 1: I tell a guy, like, I don't know if you
• 26:11
  Speaker 1: guys have ever had this experience where you're supposed to, like,
• 26:13
  Speaker 1: feel your feelings. First off, nobody knows how to do that, but, like,
• 26:16
  Speaker 1: definitely guys.
• 26:17
  Speaker 3: Yeah, you're kind of like, okay. Yeah.
• 26:22
  Speaker 1: So sometimes I'll give them a somatic practice, you know,
• 26:25
  Speaker 1: but other times... I'll just I'll give them like a
• 26:27
  Speaker 1: practical in real time. Here's what you do in that moment.
• 26:31
  Speaker 1: She says X. I want you to say Y. She
• 26:34
  Speaker 1: does this thing. I want you to do that thing.
• 26:36
  Speaker 1: It doesn't mean I'm always right, but I'm giving them
• 26:38
  Speaker 1: something material to work with so that we can see
• 26:41
  Speaker 1: what happens when that happens. And then I'll have more information.
• 26:44
  Speaker 1: And I'm teaching him along the way how to do
• 26:46
  Speaker 1: that thing. So I rarely leave us. I'm not a
• 26:49
  Speaker 1: homework kind of a therapist. You're homework for next week.
• 26:51
  Speaker 1: But I am a therapist. here are the action items,
• 26:55
  Speaker 1: here are the things. And I give them access to
• 26:57
  Speaker 1: me too, which I know is not typical. via WhatsApp.
• 27:00
  Speaker 1: So if stuff comes up, you don't have to wait
• 27:02
  Speaker 1: a week and go down a really bad road. Yeah.
• 27:06
  Speaker 1: So I'm like, text me, let me know how it went.
• 27:08
  Speaker 1: We'll course correct in real time. So there's a lot
• 27:10
  Speaker 1: of action oriented things, very specific things do this, not that.
• 27:15
  Speaker 1: And then the L is leadership. But this is where
• 27:17
  Speaker 1: I sneak in. I always say it's like, you know,
• 27:19
  Speaker 1: putting spinach in your kid's strawberry smoothie, right? Like this
• 27:22
  Speaker 1: is actually the real therapy of it, which is I
• 27:27
  Speaker 1: think there's a lot of conversation in the therapeutic space
• 27:30
  Speaker 1: around dependence is a bad word. You shouldn't be dependent
• 27:34
  Speaker 1: on your therapist. I actually have a little bit of
• 27:35
  Speaker 1: a different take on it.
• 27:36
  Speaker 2: Nice. I like this so far.
• 27:38
  Speaker 1: And I learned this from my therapist, which was dependence
• 27:41
  Speaker 1: in service of independence. And if you think about how
• 27:45
  Speaker 1: a human actually develops independence, you don't take a child
• 27:50
  Speaker 1: and throw them out into the world and that's how
• 27:52
  Speaker 1: they become independent, right? That's usually how they die or
• 27:54
  Speaker 1: they form really terrible, like things are going to happen
• 27:57
  Speaker 1: to them. How they form independence is, let's think of
• 28:00
  Speaker 1: like a baby. You're going to carry that baby across
• 28:03
  Speaker 1: the street. Then the baby gets a little bit older.
• 28:04
  Speaker 1: You're going to hold their hand across the street. And
• 28:07
  Speaker 1: then maybe you stand on one side and you watch
• 28:09
  Speaker 1: them cross. And then maybe you're looking from the kitchen window.
• 28:11
  Speaker 1: And at some point, that kid's crossing the street. And
• 28:14
  Speaker 1: not only do you feel safe because you watch them,
• 28:18
  Speaker 1: you know, titrated that for them, but they feel confident.
• 28:21
  Speaker 1: I know how to do this thing because I had
• 28:23
  Speaker 1: that safe attachment figure who taught me how to be
• 28:26
  Speaker 1: able to trust myself in this place. And I see
• 28:28
  Speaker 1: therapy very similarly. So the L for leadership is really
• 28:32
  Speaker 1: about me titrating that experience. And if you were a
• 28:36
  Speaker 1: guy who didn't have a healthy relationship with your mother,
• 28:40
  Speaker 1: maybe she was smothering. Maybe she parentified you. Maybe she
• 28:43
  Speaker 1: made you wrong for expressing your emotions. Maybe she made
• 28:46
  Speaker 1: you her partner instead of her child. Like there's lots
• 28:48
  Speaker 1: of things that can happen between mothers and sons. This
• 28:51
  Speaker 1: is a reparenting model where ultimately I'm teaching you how
• 28:56
  Speaker 1: to parent yourself well. And that's the real therapy of it.
• 28:59
  Speaker 1: But if I don't do those other things first, we're
• 29:02
  Speaker 1: never going to get to that place. They don't trust
• 29:04
  Speaker 1: me enough.
• 29:05
  Speaker 3: You said you're teaching yourself how to parent yourself?
• 29:09
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 29:10
  Speaker 3: What do you mean?
• 29:11
  Speaker 1: So I'm basically acting as a surrogate parent, a healthy
• 29:15
  Speaker 1: attachment figure for you until you've developed that level of
• 29:20
  Speaker 1: independence that then, you know, a lot of people, maybe
• 29:23
  Speaker 1: you guys have heard of like inner child work, right?
• 29:24
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 29:25
  Speaker 1: So I do a lot of that. Like I can
• 29:27
  Speaker 1: project my little girl sort of like a hologram out.
• 29:30
  Speaker 1: My healthy adult self that I have developed in concert
• 29:34
  Speaker 1: with my therapist over the last almost 20 years, now
• 29:37
  Speaker 1: I can do it on my own, can take care
• 29:39
  Speaker 1: of me. of her when she's triggered when she's activated
• 29:42
  Speaker 1: when she but I couldn't do that 15 years ago
• 29:45
  Speaker 1: because I grew up with abuse and trauma and like
• 29:48
  Speaker 1: my nervous system didn't know how to do that so
• 29:50
  Speaker 1: I used his regulated nervous system and his adult capacity
• 29:54
  Speaker 1: to to train you know he did it and he
• 29:57
  Speaker 1: wasn't telling me it was now I now I know
• 29:58
  Speaker 1: what he was doing the whole time but at the
• 29:59
  Speaker 1: at the time I was just like okay I guess
• 30:01
  Speaker 1: I'll just listen to you and that's where it's like
• 30:05
  Speaker 1: no you can be dependent on me I'm gonna teach
• 30:08
  Speaker 1: you how to be able to do this for yourself
• 30:10
  Speaker 1: and that's the real therapy of it that's where guys
• 30:12
  Speaker 1: then really get more vulnerable with me and share you
• 30:16
  Speaker 1: know horrific things that happen to them in their childhood
• 30:18
  Speaker 1: and we see how it's now impacting their and that's
• 30:21
  Speaker 1: when we can really get into the therapy oh This
• 30:23
  Speaker 1: isn't just necessary. I mean, a lot of people will
• 30:26
  Speaker 1: tell me that's just how they are. And usually it's
• 30:29
  Speaker 1: who they learn to be. And that's the stuff that
• 30:32
  Speaker 1: coaches can't touch. They can't touch that. They're not trained
• 30:36
  Speaker 1: in it. They're not skilled in it. And they can't
• 30:38
  Speaker 1: do that for you. And if you only do the
• 30:40
  Speaker 1: other three, you don't get to that piece. It's a
• 30:42
  Speaker 1: little bit like putting a Band-Aid on. It'll feel better
• 30:45
  Speaker 1: for a moment, but you're not actually healing anything there.
• 30:48
  Speaker 3: Beautiful. Christina, this has been so great.
• 30:50
  Speaker 2: Thank you so much for coming on.
• 30:51
  Speaker 1: Thank you.
• 30:52
  Speaker 3: Appreciate you.
• 30:52
  Speaker 1: Thanks, guys.
• 30:53
  Speaker 3: Where can people find more about you?
• 30:55
  Speaker 1: Christina Ferrari. Christina with a K. FerrariLikeTheCar.com is my website.
• 30:59
  Speaker 1: And then it's Christina S. Ferrari on all the socials.
• 31:02
  Speaker 2: Amazing.
• 31:03
  Speaker 3: Amazing. We appreciate you.
• 31:04
  Speaker 2: Thank you.
• 31:04
  Speaker 3: Thanks, guys.
• 31:05
  Speaker 1: Appreciate it.
• 31:06
  Speaker 3: Thanks for listening to the episode. We hope you loved it.
• 31:09
  Speaker 3: So our goal is to get a million guys into
• 31:11
  Speaker 3: therapy with this show. And the biggest thing you could
• 31:13
  Speaker 3: do to support is leave us a five-star review on
• 31:16
  Speaker 3: Apple or Spotify. Yeah.
• 31:17
  Speaker 2: Kevin and I are so passionate about these conversations. It
• 31:20
  Speaker 2: makes such a big impact on the show and it
• 31:23
  Speaker 2: really helps us reach more people who need to hear
• 31:26
  Speaker 2: conversations like this.
• 31:27
  Speaker 3: You can also watch the full show on YouTube with videos.
• 31:30
  Speaker 3: So you can actually feel like you're in the room with.
• 31:33
  Speaker 2: Us getting therapy because therapy is expensive, but our podcast
• 31:36
  Speaker 2: is free. So go subscribe, follow rate and review. And
• 31:42
  Speaker 2: if you have any feedback on topics you want us
• 31:44
  Speaker 2: to cover, just shoot us a note on Instagram. We'll
• 31:47
  Speaker 2: see you next week.