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Help! I Just Came Out · Gay Men Going Deeper

• 0:09
  Speaker A: Welcome to Gay Men Going Deeper, a podcast by the Gay Men's Brotherhood that showcases raw and real conversations about personal development, mental health, and sexuality from an unapologetically gay perspective. I'm your host, Michael DiIorio, and joining me today are Matt Lansdel and Reno Johnston. Today's episode is called Help I Just Came Out. And we're going to be exploring what life is like in the first year after coming out of the closet. We'll be answering questions like, what was your first year out of the closet? Like, how can someone reconcile the version of themselves they kept hidden in the closet with the person they authentically are? And what is your advice for building the supportive community? So for those of you who have already been through this phase of your life, I invite you to join us. And what we want you to get out of this episode is to go back to that period of your life with us going to be doing that today. We want you to join us. So notice how far you've come. Maybe even think about how your experience can help others who are starting their journey now. For those of you who are in this phase right now, welcome. This episode is just for you, and we want you. We want to help you make sense of this overwhelming time by sharing some of our stories and offering you some of our tips, tools and encouragement to navigate this time. And for those of you who have not yet come out, this episode is also for you. Because even if you're not ready yet, listening to these conversations might help you feel less alone in the world and more prepared for if and when your time comes. All right, so something for everybody today. If you're new here, please subscribe to the channel on YouTube. And if you're listening to us on your favorite podcast platform, please do subscribe and leave us a five star rating and review, which will help us get into the ears of the people who need us the most. All right, if you guys have been paying attention, last week or last episode or one of our more recent episodes, we talked about what life is like in the closet. It was called living in the closet. Okay. And today we're continuing that and we're focusing on the first year after coming out of the closet. This is a very unique phase. I was thinking about this as a transition of sorts. It's a life transition of sorts. And like all transition periods, it's confusing, overwhelming, frustrating, and a lot of people ask, why did I do this? Why did I come out? Let's go back in. But you can't undo it, right? So the transition that I'm talking about here is really about life after that hyper vigilant survival mode in the closet. All that energy that went into keeping yourself safe and hidden is now available to build a life centered around authenticity and joy. How nice is that? This phase is also about giving yourself permission to be you. Easier said than done. And learning how to move beyond those survival mechanisms that no longer serve you, which we talked about extensively in the last episode. That can be a very fun and liberating and exciting time. Absolutely. But that first year does come with a lot of challenges, unique challenges. Coming out, as we said, is a process. So just because you do it once the first time, you keep doing it. So the coming out process continues well into that first year and beyond. And then you got to deal with the fallout of coming out. Right. Once word gets out, you have to deal with the fact that people are going to be talking about you and you're not going to have much control over that. They're going to be talking about your news. And after being in the closet for so long, that is going to cause a lot of emotions for you, shall we say. And then, of course, the dynamics will change with your family and friends as you come up to them as they learn this new part of you. And that takes some adjustment on both ends, and you might even lose some friends in the process. And this is really hard stuff to navigate. Yeah. Not to mention in this community called the LGBT community, that you might not even identify with or know much about at all, but now you're part of it. And then what about dating? How does that work? Can you start dating? What about pda? You know, and then, of course, dealing with homophobic comments and homophobia all the time, sometimes from the people that we love, and sometimes just from society in general. So there is a lot to contend with and there's a lot to navigate, and it's all brand new, so there is a lot there. And if you're like me, you probably didn't have any resources or support systems to guide you. But don't worry, that is what we are doing here today. We're here to guide you. And this episode, I want it to be. We want it to be one such resource for anyone out there. And we hope that this lives on well past our release date so that people can find it. Okay. And if you're into downloadable stuff, I also have a free guide called the Gay Man's Survival Guide for your first year out, which is actually perfect for this episode. I'm going to Link that in the show notes. If you guys are interested in kind of PDF downloadable things. Think of it as a first year toolkit. It'll have things like journal prompts, which, you know, I love. Affirmations resources such as podcasts and books, little bits of queer history I think everybody needs to know some bits on gay dating 101 and how to deal with difficult family members and some other tips. So that'll be in the show notes for you. But for today's main event, let's get into our first question of the episode, which is a broad one. I'm curious to see where you guys go with this. What was your first year out of the closet like? And let's start with Reno.
• 5:13
  Speaker B: So I think it was in 2008. And, you know, as I shared in the previous episode, I had told a close friend and that really created a sense of security and stability for me, like, oh, if I have her, I'm good. My experience in the year following is probably a pretty unique one. There's a couple pieces to this. There's one where some relationships start to change, right. So there are people that I went to high school with and graduated with who I'm suddenly no longer close to. And that's some combination, I think, of my coming out, me starting to live a different lifestyle, and also us just going in different directions. Right. I know that very clearly there were a couple of people at least, who really, I guess, seemed to take issue with my coming out. And unfortunately they were two fairly close people. And so that. That was difficult. And I remember struggling with it in the years to come. One of them was a little like a really, really close friend. We spent some very significant time together in high school, and so it was difficult to. To let go of that relationship. And I think in years to come, I found myself even having dreams sometimes and then reaching out and just kind of checking in and maybe attempting to rebridge that connection. And finally he just said, like, I don't want to sound rude or, or whatnot, but we're just not. We're not there anymore. And it was hard to hear that, but it was also like, we ripped the band aid off. You know, it's like, okay, I can let go of this relationship now and just appreciate it for what it was, when it was what it was. I think another important thing to share is that I started a journey of exploration and self expression without the guards on, so to speak. It was like, oh, okay, I'm free now. Like, as Gaga says, I'm a free Bitch, baby. So it was like, okay, what sort of trouble can I get into now that I'm free to get into trouble, right? As I'm sharing all of this, I'm being mindful because I know that I have a tendency to be very optimistic, and I like to focus on the positives. So as I'm retelling that period in that year, I'm mindful to share that it wasn't all fast and fabulous. Like, it was raw, too. It was raw. It felt edgy and uncomfortable. And there was a lot of figuring out, like, who am I now? How does this all work? Because there's no handbook. Well, now there is, Michael. Thanks. You know, but there. But there wasn't, you know, So I was just like, okay, cool. Let's. Let's figure this out. In the time that followed, I can remember some specific highlights, like being in a club with all of my friends, some who didn't really know yet, and coming out to them at the gay bar on the dance floor. And one of them said, you know, all of them being like, yeah, that's cool. And one of them saying to me, how do I act around you now? Like, what happens from here? And I'm like, same guy, basically. You know, I just, like, have sex with men. And I was before you knew. So that doesn't really change. I said, just treat me the same as you would any other friend and don't be weird. And if you have any questions, just ask them. You know, just don't be weird about it. We're still friends. All is well. Tonight you're probably gonna see me on the stage, maybe with my shirt off. Like, I may be grinding on some guy or making out. That's going to be, like, weird for you. Probably. Maybe not. But if it is, just, like, work that out. I'm here to have a good time. We're all here to have a good time. And we did, you know, and we did. And what I found actually is that as time progressed, it's almost like people loved me more. And I think it's because there was more of me available to love. I had revealed more of myself. And also I started loving myself more. Now, listen, didn't happen overnight, right? There was still some stuff there for sure, but I was enjoying who I was. It was like, oh, cool. There's, like, more going on here, and I'm really into this. The other thing that happened is me and that friend I shared about, we were out at the bar one night and this woman spotted us. She clocked Us on the stage. And she comes up to us and she says, have you guys done any, like, modeling or anything like that before? And I was like, what? No. Why? And she was like, oh, there's a designer. Like, I want you to meet him, or something like that. And I was like, okay, this is wild, but sure. And so we go to this guy's house, I think a week later, and we meet him, and he tells us that he was on the board for the Pride committee and that he wants to dress us in his designs and put us on a float for Pride. So, like, the same. Basically the same year I come out of the closet, I'm like, plucked from obscurity with my bestie, my baghag, pardon my candor. And we're like, put on a float in Pride. So I'm, like, at the legislative building in Winnipeg in a bathroom, changing into this, like, skimpy little silver metallic Speedo with a rainbow stripe and the matching top. And I'm, like, walking down the stairs of the legislator to get on the float, and I'm half naked. I swear, it does not get any gayer than this. I was like, wow, what is my life? And it just. It was amazing. We had. She's in a ball gown, by the way, like, in this massive ball gown. And I was just like, what. What is our life? It was pretty crazy. It was pretty crazy. The other thing I can say is I dated. You know, I started kind of dating, meeting guys and exploring relationship, and then just exposing my friends and my family, I guess, to the new and filtered me, you know, was really exciting. It was a very liberating time for me.
• 11:40
  Speaker A: I think it sounds like you really jumped in with both feet first, which sounds like Reno. Beautiful. All right, Maddie, tell us that first year, what was it like for you?
• 11:51
  Speaker C: Well, it's very different than Reno's, that's for sure.
• 11:54
  Speaker A: I bet. But I.
• 11:55
  Speaker C: The thing that stood out, you said Reno, is there's more of me to love. That was a really beautiful way to say that, because that's the end of the rainbow for me. It's like, once you start going to that place, it's like. And you really embody your authenticity. That's what's there. There's more available to love. So I love that.
• 12:11
  Speaker B: Thank you.
• 12:11
  Speaker C: And I also felt you, really, when you were sharing about that guy who didn't want to continue connecting with you because you're gay. And I think I had similar experiences, but it was imagination. I knew that that would be a possibility. So what I started doing when I was about 16, 17 years old. So, like, grade 10, 11, as I started hanging out with all women. And I knew eventually I'd have to come out, but I knew that I didn't want to have a group of guy friends because they would probably ostracize me or reject me. I'm just putting that together now. I'm like. But back then it was just women were safer and I knew that, you know, men were probably going to react a lot more negatively to me. So it's kind of like, funny how my protector part was to isolate myself from my. My group of gay or group of guy friends growing up, which, you know, I had like five or six really, really close friends that I'd known since I was like 3 or 4 years old. And we went all the way up to high school together. But around grade 10, I stopped hanging out with them all and started hanging out with women. So Fast forward to 18, which is when I came out. Came out on Mother's Day. Well, to my mom, I guess. Like, when do we really come out? Like, honestly, the first person I came out, I was probably right around 18. And this topic is really. It's delicate for me. And I. It's interesting because you're talking about, like, how, like, you're positive about it and you're remembering all the good things. For me, it's not really so much that, like, it's more like a lot of the, the pain and a lot of the, the hiding and the, the concealing myself. Like, all that sits right at the top. And I know there was a lot of good times once I got past 18. So that first year was just really, really raw. I was super, super aware of people's reactions to me. And, you know, off the top, Michael, you talked about hyper vigilance, being in the closet and then coming out, and that goes away. For me, it was kind of the opposite. Like, I went from, I would say, moderately hyper vigilant, but it was more so to keep my secret a secret. But then as soon as I came out that first year, like, my hyper vigilance, like, it skyrocketed and I was super aware of, like, everybody. And then I became very sensitive to rejection. Like, are they, like, not calling me back because I'm gay? So I put everything through the filter of, like, I'm being rejected. I remember right when I got out of high school, there was this girl who created like a. When Facebook just came on and you could have, like, posts with pictures and you could tag people in it, like, right away, it was like, a big deal. And then everybody would see it. So there was this, like, poster board of all these, like, characters from Disney movies or something. And there was this one that was like blowing fire like a dragon. And she tagged me in it and titled it the Flamer. And I was just like, oh, like, it totally was a gut punch. And I'm like, fuck, now everybody knows. It was just. I just felt very exposed. I think that's the biggest. The biggest word that comes. At that time I was like, in active addiction. So I think that actually helped. Believe it or not, it was like, taking the edge off, like, using. Using substances and stuff like that. Drinking. I was partying all the time. You know, there was that piece. And then the one glimmer of. Of yumminess was the fact that now I could start having sex with men. And I wouldn't say really dating. I didn't start dating at that time, I don't think. Maybe I waited till I was about 19. But, you know, like, fantasizing since you were, I don't know, however old, probably 10 years old, I had my first sexual fantasy or maybe even younger than that. And like, when you first get to, like, suck your first dick when you've been like, craving it for so long, right? So at 18 was when I first had my sexual experience with a man, with a women. It was like a lot before that, but that wasn't really doing a whole lot for me. It was just kind of like, you know, ego sex. Like, I was doing it because I thought I had to. So there was a lot of, like, I guess the feeling of, like, getting to scratch the itch. And that was really good because for me, I think a lot of the reason why I was seeking out drugs and alcohol is because I wasn't getting that need met for. For sex. Like, it's such a dopamine thing, and it's all about serotonin and even oxytocin. Like, these three main, like, major connection chemicals and reward chemicals are not being provided to my mind and my body because I wasn't able to engage in the type of connections that I needed. So I think it was. That's what. What drugs and alcohol were doing. So when I started, you know, coming out more and getting to have sex and connect with other gay men, that's really when I. My addiction actually started to go down. So connection with gay men goes up, and then my addiction behavior started to go down. So it's kind of interesting, right? I always say the the cure to addiction isn't sobriety or absence, it's connection. I think most of us that are in addiction, we. We need connection. We need heart centered connection from people. So yeah, that's. Those are the main things that stand out for me. Very challenging year. For sure it is. But I will say this actually one last thing is when I was in the closet, there was the pressure valve and it was big building and building and building and coming out and just saying those words. The pressure valve was able to release and pressure came off. It still, you know, had to release pressure throughout that whole year. But it definitely gave me some sanity back, that's for sure.
• 17:06
  Speaker A: All of those things make a lot of sense to me and resonate with me as well as a little Reno shared. I wrote the work raw. When you said it, that's. That said for me, like that one really resonates with me emotionally. Very raw. And as I said from the top, for me it was really confusing and like, who am I now what? That was kind of the vibe deliberating, but also the sense of now what. So I guess the word I would use to describe that first year. So for me that was I guess my second year of university. So I was away, I was in residence, I was not at home, which I think was a blessing. Really helped me not being at home, being away from my usual family, friends and whatnot. But yeah, the word that comes up for me is tumultuous and raw. I'm going to add that one too. So yeah, being not being at home really helped a lot. I went to Catholic school in high school and then I went away to university in residence where I was exposed all of a sudden to everybody else in Catholic school. They kept you very much on that path. Right. So there's like other people that are not Catholic and there's, you know, people who are openly out. And I found that people had been out for a long time, lesbians, bisexual, gay guys. And they're like, oh yeah, I've been out for a while. And they're like, not a problem. Like this is just not even a big deal for them. Some of them, not a lot, but some. I was like, oh, well that's nice. Where have you been my whole life? Right? So that was actually really helpful to have that kind of exposure. I remember in Guelph, University of Guelph. I don't know if it's still there. There's a bar called Trapper's Alley and it's kind of the place to go. And if you go upstairs, it's a place called palace, which is kind of your typical, like, dance floor, college bar, messy, sloppy grey tone. But if you go downstairs to the underground, that's where you would find what they would call, we would call the alternative crowd. So it's where you might find the bohemians, the goth peeps and the queers, people who are openly out. So I remember, like, going up with my friends to palace for a time. First time. But I would go to the bathroom and sneak downstairs to the underground to see what was going on and if I could find somebody and then go back upstairs. Now I was out at this time, right? I wasn't hiding my sexuality, but I was still, in a way, like, I was still hiding the fact that I wanted to meet guys and I wanted to hook up with guys. Like, even though I was out, I still felt the need to hide that part, which I think is very interesting. So, you know, Matt, your point about the hypervigilance, I think for me, it didn't spike like yours. It didn't disappear. But it's. It was a gradual, the pressure valve, like, gradual releasing of, oh, wait, I don't need to do this anymore. Oh, how nice is that? Oh, wait, I don't need to do that anymore. Okay, how nice is that? And this, this was a constant year of, like, I don't need to do that anymore. Which was really, really nice. This beautiful release. One challenging aspect I will say I'll speak to a very challenging part was in the last episode. I talked about my biggest fear being that people would reject me. My family would stop loving me or my friends would stop, you know, loving me. And to a degree that happened, didn't stop loving me. But the relationship changed. And that's what I didn't want. The dynamic changed. My family members in that first little bit were just like, how do we deal with you? I don't know how to have a gay son. So I don't want to say the wrong thing because I love you and I don't want to, you know, I don't want to upset you. But then to me, I took that as distance, Laura. But they were like, they were treating me differently. So, you know, between me and my family members, specifically my mom and my parents, there was this period, like a transition period again, going back to the intro where, like, we had to, like, re. Meet each other as, you know, the gay Michael, they thought they had a straight son this whole time. But surprise, surprise, I'm not. And so that was really hard because to Me, I missed. I wouldn't have admitted this at the time, but I missed them. I missed my family the way it was. And so getting to know them again was a. Not easy and it took a bit of time.
• 20:48
  Speaker C: So.
• 20:48
  Speaker A: So, yeah, I'd say those are. Those are probably the biggest challenges. And my biggest happy moment was like, everyone else here getting a chance to say, fuck it, I don't need to worry about this anymore. And I can have all the gay fun I want. Sex with men. Like, three cheers for sex with men and being open about it and not having to hide about it anymore, which is so nice.
• 21:08
  Speaker C: You should write Appearance of a Gay Survival Manual.
• 21:12
  Speaker A: My gosh, my mom has asked me to do that. And now. Now that you said it live on air, Matt, now I'm going to have to do it.
• 21:17
  Speaker C: You should, because it would be so helpful for. For so many parents because a lot of kids have that experience and it's. I do think, a majority of people's experiences that they. That their parents love them, continue to love them. I'd say that that's 90% of people's experience and. But exactly your story. I hear a lot of that in. In my private work. They're now treating me differently and we take it, we put it through the filter of rejection because that's what we're scared of. But really, it's just, they don't know how to relate to us because it's different or it's a diff. You know, you're now a different person in a way. Right. There's a different part of you to relate to. So it doesn't have to be a bad thing. It's could be helpful for people to have that.
• 21:53
  Speaker B: Totally.
• 21:54
  Speaker A: And with friends too, Right. Similar to. So what you guys were saying is like, you know, what. What do we do with you now? Like, how do I treat you now? I get where those questions come from, but it is in many ways the same way. I'm still the same person. It's just now, you know, this thing about me you didn't know before. Right.
• 22:07
  Speaker C: I think a lot of it would be opening up a line of communication, right? Just like being able to say, like, let's talk about this. Because I think that's what the main thing is. Like. Yeah.
• 22:15
  Speaker B: I think the other piece is that one of the most challenging parts, I think for parents, friends, family members is that piece where they have to reconcile with. And, you know, the spiritualist in me, you know, like, this is all mind, this is all thought stuff, right. It's kind of ethereal in its nature, but it's also experiential. And it's the piece where they have to reconcile with the death of who they thought you were and who they imagined you would be, you know, and how you sort of fit into their frame of reference. So it's not, you know, yes, you've changed in a way, but really what's changed mainly is in here. And they've got to grapple with that. Right?
• 23:00
  Speaker A: Yeah. Solo coins, guys. All right, let's take a moment to hear from our audience now. So if you're watching us on YouTube, go ahead and write in the comments what your first year out of the closet was like. If you had a chance to experience that yet, maybe tell us what your biggest surprise was or what the hardest adjustment was your biggest challenge was for you. And if you're enjoying the conversation we're having here, we invite you to join one of our weekly events. Within the Gay Men's Brotherhood. We have sharing circles where you have a chance to share your own experiences in a big room. You can attend those. You don't have to participate if you don't want to. It's a great way to kind of ease your way in. You can just show up, attend and listen. But we also have our connection circles, which are smaller, more intimate breakout rooms where you can discuss the topics that we have on the podcast with other members of the community. In the connection circle, you are there to connect. So it is definitely more of an engaging connection type of event. Either way, you can join us. We have them now weekly, so go to Gaiman's Brotherhood.com and check out the Events section to RSVP. If you don't have Facebook, that is. Okay. Just make sure you're on our email list and we'll email you the zoom link. Okay. This question I'm really excited to talk about because it's a tough one, even for, I think, even for people today. Right. How can someone reconcile the version of themselves that they kept hidden in the closet with the person they authentically are? Marina?
• 24:20
  Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, this is a big one. So I'll. I guess I'll offer something practical initially, which is like really taking the time and the space to get clear with yourself about what's happening, you know, like, and when I say what's happening, I mean like the. The sort of full scope of the experience you're having. Like, take some time to really notice the thoughts you're having, the sensations you're experiencing, what you're feeling in your Body, maybe journal. Start a journal. You know, like, I'm not going to say that's what I did, but in hindsight, it's like, these are some important years. This is an important time. And if you don't have a therapist and you don't have a confidant, which I would recommend as well, get a journal and start writing everything down. Have a place to put it all and to kind of be able to go back and reference. I'm feeling a lot of emotion as I'm saying this. It's really interesting just because there is a lot, you know, there's a lot when you're navigating this that comes up. And, you know, currently we've made advances in technology, right. So now, like, I have this iPhone here and I go for walks daily and open my voice recorder and have conversations with myself and God, really on an ongoing basis to reconcile my current experience even now. Right. So my recommendation is, yeah, like, the more clear you are and the more attuned you are and the more connected you are to your experience, the easier it's going to be to sort of go out into the world and honor that and be able to communicate that with other people, you know, and you're. You're more sturdy and congruent when you're communicating with them because you've already worked that out within yourself. Right. I think another thing as well is it's funny, I didn't even write this down, but boundaries, I would say if you can find a book on codependence and boundaries, I'd go pick that up. Because their shit is not your shit, and it doesn't mean that whatever they're navigating is invalid. They're entitled to their own experience and you're entitled to yours. And you don't need to take on whatever they're navigating. You can really just hold it, honor it, like, let it be there. It's okay that you are in crisis right now because you thought I was going to give you grandbabies and I was going to have a wife and you were going to have a wed. There was going to be a wedding, and that's maybe not happening in the way you thought it was. That's probably really hard for you, or you thought I was someone that I was and that I also wasn't. You know, so there are some uncomfortable conversations that happen at that point as well. And I think the first one starts with you, and the more equipped you are at that point to have the remaining ones. The other thing Is. I mean, listen, I'll speak from my own experience. I'm queer, and I've always been queer. Like, I've never. I've never not been queer. And maybe I didn't have the words and the terminology for it, but it's always been the case. Yes, there are ways in which I withheld certain information. Like, hey, guys, I have sex with men. And sometimes I make out with my girlfriends at the nightclub when I'm drunk because it's fun. But I've always been queer. And I think that that made me a target. I think people knew already. So it wasn't a total shock to everyone when I finally revealed that I had sex with men. Because how I was moving through the world was more or less queer in a sense. I think there's a piece here as well, where I grew up in rural Manitoba. I was the only black kid in my school, and I was closeted. And a fundamental and formative period of my life was growing up in this fishing town, this Icelandic, Ukrainian fishing town. Right. I carry that with me. It's in the music I listen to. It's in my capacity to, like, line dance or shotgun a beer or, you know, fill it a fish or whatever. You know, like, there's a lot there, and I can still do that stuff, and I still enjoy it. And it's not like I was pretending in a way. It's like, yeah, all of that was true. And also Sex in the City and RuPaul Girl and, like, you know, whatever else, like, that's also true. So those things can coexist. And I think what I love is that we, as I reconcile the coexisting of these many parts of myself within myself that can happen out in the world and in my relationship. So, you know, that's. That's kind of what that's looked like for me. And that's why I love this word queer. Maybe the last thing I'll say, that's why I love this word queer. Because for me, I'm just like. I'm a mixed fucking bag. And, like, I love it and I'm okay with it. And because I am, most people are, too. And if they're not, it's just like, you ain't my people, and that's okay.
• 29:44
  Speaker A: And that's okay. I love that. That's so.
• 29:46
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 29:47
  Speaker A: Empowering to say that. You do you. I do me love you. Don't have to love you, but I respect you over there. Yeah. Love it. Thank you, Reno.
• 29:54
  Speaker C: Yeah. I think this is a. This was A very well crafted question. It, it stumped me at first. I went on a walk last night and I brought it with me and I was just mulling it over and I'm like, man, there's so many layers to this question. Like it's was bringing up all sorts of things and I was getting all going meta with it, going Buddhist with it, going psychological with it, going coach Matt with it. And I was trying to figure out a way to kind of articulate it. But you could even replace the word reconcile because that was the word. That's the word that I kept going back to. I was like, this isn't such an interesting choice of word. How can someone reconcile the version of themselves they kept hidden in the closet with the person they authentically are? I was thinking, how can someone reconcile or, sorry, how can someone grieve the loss of the version of themselves they kept hidden in the closet with the person they authentically are? So it's like I'm a firm believer that this process and any process of changing self concept is going to be a grieving process. I'm also a believer that that person that we were, I kind of describe them as characters. That character that we were when we were inauthentic. That part of us is never going to just be fully gone. Like we can't just rid ourselves of that person. It's going to be a collection of memories that we have inside of our psyche. So I don't think this is about like. And that's why I like the word reconcile because it's like, it's not like rid ourselves or get rid of it. It's like a grieving process. And I look at the grieving process as this like incubation period where we're kind of like in this cocoon and we're like, we're developing the things, the wings, the, you know, all the things so we can come out and you know, been really fully be out. And I think that is part of the coming out process. It's. And that's why it's a process. It's not an event that we just engage in and then suddenly we're this butterfly. It's like we're constantly evolving into this, this butterfly. And I think we're evolving into this butterfly throughout our whole lives, not just through, through this. So the coming out process can be, you know, a microcosm of really this macro thing that we all experience as human beings around the changing and the evolution of our self concept. And I think that's. That's really important to note. And then the two words that came up that I was trying to work with was like conceal and reveal. And I look at concealing ourselves as inauthentic, and I look at revealing ourselves as authentic. And for me, when I was going through my process, I. I came out at 18 and I started seeing my first. Well, not first therapist, but I started seeing a therapist because I was having issues with my face flushing. I've talked about this on previous episodes before. That's my body's way of telling me I hadn't fully grieved, I hadn't fully. I'm still concealing, right? I'm still concealing parts of myself. So just because we come out does not mean that suddenly we're. We're authentic and we're living authentically. I think there's aspects of me that I was hiding still. I was holding back parts of myself and not sharing myself in authentic ways or not being silly, goofy Matt anymore because I was worried about people seeing me as gay or too feminine or these things. So there were still aspects of myself that I was hiding.
• 32:48
  Speaker B: Can I ask you a quick question?
• 32:49
  Speaker C: Sure, yeah.
• 32:50
  Speaker B: You just smiled when you said that. And I'm curious about why.
• 32:54
  Speaker C: For me, it's my. My whole life has been this, like this constant process of accumulate and shed, accumulate and shed. And I've. It's been almost exhausting, but also beautiful, right? Ego is exhausted souls like, oh, this is amazing because you're constantly evolving and you're shedding skin, which is what the human experience is supposed to be. My self concept could be different today than it was yesterday, right? Because it's how I see myself in relation to the world around me. And so to maybe to bring it down a level is like, okay, sharing ourselves, revealing ourselves. That's how we can reconcile this version of ourselves as the more and more we share our authentic self, the less and less, I should say, we're going to be connected to this old version of ourselves. And again, I just look at this all. We're all just these characters in this giant movie of our lives. And we're. We can play all these different characters. And it's like, right, so it's like, why are we holding on to these. These certain characters? Like, why can't we just bounce and be different characters and. And things like that? And it's. I want maybe the audience to think about that. Like, you know, who do you see yourself as? And why would it be so scary if other people saw you as something different? Whether you have this secret to want to be a singer, be an actor, do this or do that. It's like we kind of keep this hidden. I don't want people to see that about me because it might change how they see me. Right. Why do we hold so dearly on to other people's perceptions of us? And I think so this was the question I was grappling with yesterday because I'm grappling with this in my own life as I'm, as I'm moving into a new version of myself and learning how to be more visible and put myself out there more. And I think it really comes down to the way that we're programmed as human beings. Our self worth and our self concept. Well, I think our self concept, our self worth, a lot of it comes from our self concept and how the world treats us. There's a book called the undervalued self by Dr. Elaine Aaron and she talks about these two domains, linking and ranking. And these are really the two domains that we can navigate as a way to build our sense of self. And our self worth is a big part of this. Ranking is like a very much more of like an egoic structure when you think about it like we need to learn how to rank as human beings. You know, you think about in school you're either the popular kid or you're the not popular kid or you know, in university you have good grades and you, you know, you're. Everything's about ranking in our world, right? At least a certain aspect or a certain culture in our world revolves around ranking. So a lot of ranking is learning how to make yourself valuable. Right. And then linking I look at as very much more heart centered. So that's the skill of learning how to connect with each other and in a heart centered way. And our self worth is really determined based off of these two things. So if we ranked lowly or we link lowly, like our family didn't really connect with us, there's a good chance that we're not going to have a very strong sense of self. We're going to have an undervalued sense of self, which is what this book is talking about. So to bring it back to this whole concept of like self concept, the mirror that we get from other people is a huge reflection of how we feel about ourselves. And I'm a firm believer that like the older that we get, the less we stop identifying ourselves based off of the mirror that we get from other people. And I think that's kind of what I'm Going through in my own life right now is. It's like who I am is less of a reflection of how people show up to me and just more of how I see myself in relation to the world. Right. Or even in relation to just myself. Who was I yesterday? Who do I want to be today? And just letting myself show up with more. More authenticity. And I think the way that I'm. When I. I know I'm in my authenticity when I'm present, that's it. When I'm grabbing onto self concepts, self concepts live in past, future. Right. They have to. That's the only way that we can conceptualize is something from the past or who I want to become in the future. So when I'm present and I'm just in the moment, let's say I'm meditating or I'm listening to a song or I'm on a walk and I'm not thinking about myself in relationship to the world. I'm just Matt. And I'm just skipping along and I'm having a great time. And so I don't even know what I'm saying, like, in the sense of directly like what. Hopefully I'm transmitting the energy of what I'm trying to share, but it's.
• 36:57
  Speaker B: Yeah, you are. Yeah.
• 36:58
  Speaker C: Just be with the essence of who you are. Be with the energy of who you are. And try less to grab on to how people see me or how people are going to react if I tell them that I'm gay or. Or whatever. Just. Just be the energy of yourself. Right. But I know that sometimes we don't know what that is and we can't connect to it. If we've been living in our authentic self for so long, we might not be connected to our essential energy as easily. So. Yeah. I'd be curious if you guys have any ideas or things that you do that help you connect to your essential energy.
• 37:28
  Speaker B: Well, you pointed to something that I think is really worth really highlighting as well, Matt. And it's the piece where, you know, you come out. There's the reconciliation, let's say. And then there's this piece after that I, you know, we maybe sort of alluded to, but maybe not totally talked about, which is the piece where you start to shed even what comes after the coming out. Because I feel like there's still, like, layers of this stuff you're talking about.
• 37:57
  Speaker C: Yeah.
• 37:57
  Speaker B: And as you continue to evolve, it's like you shed even that sort of this identity of I'm a gay man and that means this. And I Am this, and I do that, and we do. You know, and it's like there's another sort of graduation of, like, another layer of freedom that you experience where you don't even carry any of that around. And as you said, you're just living fully present to your experience, moment to moment to moment. And, like, that's brilliant.
• 38:26
  Speaker C: Yeah. And you made me think of something else. Is like, this whole idea of coming out, and then we become this thing. We develop another character around. I'm gay. And we get all the rainbow flags and we do all the things that are gay. Right. And it's like, is that authentically you, or is that just what you have grabbed onto as a way to kind of help you along the journey of coming out? Which. There's nothing wrong with that.
• 38:48
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 38:48
  Speaker C: But I guess the whole. My whole thing is. It's like I'm at this point now where it's like, I'm really evaluating. Like, are these things me? You know, what. Who am I really? Like, in the essential meaning of who I am? What is that? Without all the things that I grab onto to identify with, to create a concept of who I am? It's. Yeah, it's interesting, and it can be.
• 39:07
  Speaker B: Fun to grab onto things.
• 39:08
  Speaker A: I am so happy I asked this question. This is exactly the kind of conversation I wanted to listen from this.
• 39:14
  Speaker C: Yeah, good. It's juicy.
• 39:16
  Speaker A: Yeah. You know, I love a good, juicy question. Yeah, that's it, man. You said so much of how I wanted this to go is like, you know, asking the question. You know what? Let me do this. The reason why I asked this question is because as I was imagining my first year, this was one of the things I was grappling with. I didn't have the words for it, of course, but I was like, okay, well, who am I? Like, now that I'm gay, just like you had said, like, am I part of this community over here? Because I don't really. There's not much there. I wasn't exposed to it. I didn't. I wasn't there yet. I wasn't. The Michael you see here now is. Was not me. Then I was like, oh, I don't. I don't. I don't know who these people are. Not yet, anyway. So I didn't belong there. But I also knew I wasn't. I also knew very clearly what I wasn't in terms of, like, I wasn't like, my other straight guy friends. Like, they just had different interests than me. So it kind of felt like on an island, like, okay, well, who am I? So I just kept going through this questioning, right? And I think something you said, Matt, about seeing ourselves through the lens of others. When you're in the closet, you do that really, really well. You have to for your safety. Is always looking at it from, oh, what's so and so going to think? How's this going to look if I talk this way? You know, everything we talked about in that last episode. So finally having this moment to say, okay, wait a minute, I got to stop looking at myself through the lens of other and start really looking at myself through my own lens. It's like I was like, I don't know how to do that. You know, like what we just talked about here. So I remember thinking like, okay, wait, trying to put things in piles, right? Like, okay, well if soccer and sports is straight and I really like soccer, what does that mean? Like, is that authentically me or was I just pretending to like that? And like, this is what I was going through in my 1920 year old brain with like, again, no support whatsoever. Just questioning all of these things, like, wait, I really like spending time with that girl and I think she's really pretty, but like, I've definitely not attracted her in that way. But what does that mean for me? So we live in a world of labels, right? This bucket, this is what it means to be gay. This is what it means to be straight. This is what this looks like. This is what that looks like. And so I love this question. Even if, you know, even outside of the context in which we're asking it, just to ask it in your entire life, like, how do you reconcile the parts of you that are real versus or authentically you versus the parts of you that are not or that you think you should be, right? And keeping in mind that that identity and self concept is fluid and changes because I authentically was not someone who would be caught dead in a gay bar. Even after I had come out. It took me a little while, someone like dragged me to a gay bar and then everyone back and then I never left rather. And then there's now where like you can't get me out of there. I just love them for the most part. So that can change. And as you expose yourself, which is part of my answer here is one of the ways that that worked for me was exposing myself to these different people and different things and just trying it, just trying. I think Reno had mentioned that a little bit as well. Like, okay, I'm going to dabble over here and see what that Feels like. And just be really honest with yourself about, do I find joy in this? And actually, Matt, you had said the word present when I was doing something, and I felt that flow and that presence, and I was actually enjoying it. That's okay. Check. This is authentically something I like.
• 42:06
  Speaker C: Yeah.
• 42:07
  Speaker A: Versus trying something like, no, I just. Something feels forced or feels fake for me, then that was not my thing. And it's a moving target. So I guess that would be if I had to give any practical advice on this. It's just try a lot of things. Be very honest with yourself about whether you enjoy them or not.
• 42:23
  Speaker C: I'm curious. So let's say there's. There's a guy that's listening to this right now, and he's like, not out. And he's like, well, what's the point of me coming out? It's all I do. It's the only thing that would change is that I just sleep with men. Right. That's how he views being gay. Right. And he thinks that if he just stays in the closet, sleeps with men on the side, right. That. That's like, okay, there's a part of me that's out. I'm sleep with guys on the side. They'll know that I'm out. But everyone else is just gonna. I'm not gonna tell them. Right. It's almost kind of like a. A denial or a rationalization. That's how I would view it. So, like, what area of your life would be directly. Let's talk about directly impacted if you didn't come out? So there's the obvious one. Like, you wouldn't get to connect and fall in love with somebody that is a man and bring him home to your parents. Like, that's a direct thing that you would miss out on if you didn't come out. What are other things that you would miss out on? I'm curious.
• 43:12
  Speaker B: I think something I want to say is. I guess. I don't know if this is, like, answering your question, but we talked about presence a bit here. And my response to that person would be, well, first of all, the notion of the closet, right. Like, I'm getting meta here, but that's a thought. It's an idea, right? Really, when you look at it, like, in the closet, right? It's like, are you actually in a closet or. But what's happening there is. You're withholding, perhaps, or there's. There are things you're not revealing. What I would say to that person is anything that is deterring you from experiencing the fullness of yourself, the moment, being fully present. Like, anything that is impeding your presence or capacity for it, you may want to look at, you know, you may want to look at. And maybe. Maybe sort of let. Let go of. Right. And so if you can be fully present, fully here, fully engaged, and never talk about the fact that you have sex with men or you want to date or marry a man, then, like, great. You know, like, awesome. Right. But if that's not the case, then I'd probably look at that. You know, are you comfortable? Does this work for you? If it does, awesome. If it doesn't. Yeah. Nobody says. I'm not saying do something about it. I'm saying just start by looking at it and. And really honoring it.
• 44:36
  Speaker C: Yeah. Exploring, like, what aspects of your authenticity would be suffocated or in which ways are you being fragmented or compuls. Compartmentalized. Because somebody who's in the closet doesn't mean that they're fully inauthentic. It's an aspect of them that's inauthentic. So looking at, like, how big is this aspect for you and how is this rippling out and affecting other areas of your life? I think is kind of what I was. Where my mind was going, because I know there's a lot of people that rationalize staying in the closet that way is. It's like, well, it's only just this small piece of my life, but as somebody who's come out and been through this journey, like, holy crap. There was so much of me that was being hidden and suffocated that I wasn't even aware of. Right. And the shame. It was infiltrating my life, and it was showing up in my work. I wasn't able to fully be. Be my full, essential self because there was a part of me that I had learned that I had to hide. Right. So it's just interesting. And I know not everybody's gonna have that same experience, but for me, it was like, hide one thing. You're kind of hiding all of them. That's because it's just. It's Hiding is hiding. That's kind of how I felt, which is maybe why I'm so expressive and so out there with sharing myself now, because it was so hard to feel suffocated in the closet.
• 45:42
  Speaker A: You know, I think in your question, you had said, it's just sex with men. But for me, being gay is the love. It's not just sex with men. That part that is suffocated, I can hide. Who I have sex with. You don't need to know what means to have sex with, that's fine. But falling in love and having a partner and wanting all of that stuff, that's the part for me that. That suffocated. It was suffocating. And just the thought of going in the closet now would be, oh, my gosh, sounds like a nightmare.
• 46:07
  Speaker C: I love that because I think a lot of people, they're, you know, if you're in the closet, so you haven't tasted that, you haven't been able to date and fall for somebody and actually feel the feelings of being in love with another man, it's like, that's. Yeah, I agree. That's what being gay means to me. It's an emotional experience much more than it is a sexual experience for me.
• 46:25
  Speaker A: And I like being part of this wacky, ridiculous, bizarre gay community. We are a beautiful, fucked up, delicious mess. And I am ballpark, because I am a beautiful, fucked up, delicious mess and therefore I belong here.
• 46:38
  Speaker C: We all are.
• 46:39
  Speaker A: All right, this is a great time to have our audience also check in and see where they are. This was a pretty deep little question we found here. So, you know, even if you did come out years ago, there are parts of ourselves that are still closeted and we have to reconcile that even as adult out gay people. So think about that for yourself, okay? And if you're finding that reconciliation of that authentic self difficult, we've got you covered with our coaching collection. We've got a few coaching videos actually, specifically for this topic about authenticity and being your authentic self within our coaching collection. Some of them include authentic self expression, boundaries 101, decision making 101, how to say no and understanding your ego. Those are just a few. There are over 45 coaching videos total in the collection, as well as our two courses, healing your shame and building better relationships. Head over to gamengoingdeeper.com for more info. All right, let's talk about what I think is one of the best parts of coming out, and that is building a supportive community around you. So what is your advice for building that supportive community? Rea.
• 47:45
  Speaker B: Well, I want to emphasize something that I emphasized in the previous episode, which is like, this is not easy. We're in a particular position of privilege here in some cases, you know, some of us more than others. And that there are people's, like, safety can sometimes be at risk. And so it feels important to highlight that because if someone's listening right now and it really doesn't make sense for them at this time, like, it really doesn't make sense for you at this time to come out, you know, because you're really at risk. I would say, like, honor that and explore what makes sense, you know, which is like this Next question. I would say I would start with research. I would inquire, okay, who around me? Who around me feels safe, where around me feels safe? What organizations are there, groups are there in my community, in the environment I'm in? Do a bit of research and maybe start to inquire. I mean, on the west coast, for example, like, it's so cool because we have this organization called the Health Initiative for Men here. And I mean, they offer so many cool things, like, you know, workshops and health care related services and things like that, and sexual education and, you know, specific to our community. It's like, that's so awesome that we have that. They make it really, really accessible, you know, so fingers crossed, you've got something like that where you are and you can access that. The other piece, I guess more socially speaking in terms of friends, is like, well, I go back to kind of getting a sense of like, who you are and where you're at first, because that becomes a filter for the people that you're meant for and that are meant for you. That was at least my experience is the more clear I became about who I was and the more aligned I was with that. Let's say that, you know, that presence piece I think is so important. I started to notice, like, oh, I'm really vibing with and resonating with these people and not so much with these people, you know. So I almost in some ways felt my way through it after. Okay, there's two things happening here. One is I'm feeling my way through it. And the second is that, yeah, there were certain points where maybe I wanted to be friends with some of the cool kids. But let's be honest, like, that did happen, but it also didn't, you know, And I realized in hindsight, I'm like, I thought I wanted to be friends with the cool kids. I love my freaks. You know, the people I was friends with, like, they were perfect. You know, we. We sort of fit in, but didn't. And it was awesome because we had this agency that you kind of don't get when you feel like you have to fit in and try to follow what everyone else is up to. I was kind of liberated from that in a big way because like I said, I've always been queer. So I moved in a very queer way from day one. So Yeah, I. I guess that's my answer to the question. I don't even know if I really answered it.
• 51:03
  Speaker A: That's great.
• 51:04
  Speaker B: Yeah. And. And I guess lastly, like, shout out to my girlfriends, the women. My girlfriends, the girls, they had my back. I remember being at a party and they cussed this guy out because he was like ragging on me for reading a women's magazine or something in the back. I was in the bedroom with the girls and we're all sprawled out there having drinks and whatever, and I'm flipping through this magazine. He goes, oh, like, that's for girls or whatever. And they were like, get the fuck out of here. Who are you? I was like, wow, y'all really ride for me. Like, this is amazing. Like, they will cuss you out. So find you some girlfriends, you know that. Ride or die. They're amazing. Shout out to the women, to our.
• 51:45
  Speaker A: Allies, that they're listening.
• 51:47
  Speaker B: Oh, yeah.
• 51:49
  Speaker A: Tips for building a supportive community.
• 51:52
  Speaker C: Yeah, I think start online, you know, like, I think if you're just freshly out, like, start online and just kind of dip your toe in. We offer the perfect thing for that. Like, you can come to our sharing circles and have your camera off. You can just get a feel for what it's like. Be with yourself, your emotions, whatever's coming up To Stephen. Hearing a gay man speak. We've created our brotherhood in a way that you can literally dip your toe in and graduate into other things. So that would be the biggest thing and then move to in person things in your city. We're growing that also in the GMB with local meetup groups, stuff like that. So we've built infrastructure and I'm just a big believer if it's not there for you, build it. That's what I did. I built the community that I wanted. We built the community that we wanted, I should say. So that's really important. And then don't assume that straight people are all fill in the blank, bigots, evil. They're going to hate you, they're going to reject you. Like, it's just so many of us lead with that assumption and especially if we've been indoctrinated by religion, will think that people, you know, just because they're Christian, that they're going to hate us or think that or whatever. Like, I know, like, I've done that too. And it's like I did a whole episode on heterophobia and just how to overcome that. And because there's so many straight people that are wanting to be our allies and love Us and build community with us and stuff like that. So don't be afraid of straight people. I like how you worded the question, you didn't say how. What's your advice to building a supportive community? Not like just a gay community, you know, because it's really all people. Yeah. And then when it comes to gay, the gay world, I would say find your niche in the gay community and based off of your hobbies, your interests, what do you like to do and Google like we live in this amazing technological era where we can like Google stuff and find things and find community and there's meetup groups and it's like, it's absolutely amazing the abundance of things we have access to at the tips of our fingers. So utilize that and then yeah, start just building, building community.
• 53:45
  Speaker A: Beautiful. You guys, you guys both covered all the ground. I think the one thing I would add, it's more of a don't, don't fall for the trap of what is popular or what you see or what you think might be gay spaces and gay events and gay things. If that doesn't genuinely sing for you, don't do it. And don't think, oh no. Well that's it then. I guess I'm just going to be alone here like on the side because. Just because it's the most popular, just because it's the loudest and most, you know, glamorous using air quotes doesn't mean it's for everybody. And there are lots, I can tell you, lots, lots, lots, lots of communities and events and groups that have nothing to do with what you might normally see on like social media or just the media in general. So don't be discouraged if you don't like what is popular. Okay. Just keep searching. Including the game and spotherhood.
• 54:35
  Speaker C: Yeah. And I want to shout out our episode reinventing Yourself because that is. We talk a lot about how to shift self concept, how to move from, you know, a version of yourself that maybe you don't want to be or you're tired of being into a new version. And that was a really good episode. One of my favorite.
• 54:51
  Speaker A: I'll, I'll probably link it because I think it's a few years now so it might be further off in the archives. And as you're going through this phase, just be patient and be open minded. Right. Like this is not something you're not going to find your, you know, best supportive friend immediately. It took me a few years to find mine. So be patient with people and be open minded. I'm going to say that too. Like, as you're going out there and doing these different things, someone who might not look like someone you're gonna get along with could end up being your very best friend. So don't be spooked to judge, be open minded and be very patient with regardless of how you're doing this. And download my gay man's survival guide for your first year out. All right, guys, anything to add before I land this puppy lander? Alrighty. Well, thank you to Matt and Reno for, as always, lending us your wisdom and advice for this episode. Uh, thank you to our viewers and listeners for sticking with us. And reminder, guys, this podcast and YouTube channel are listener and viewer supported. So if you enjoy what we're creating, you could support us by making a donation to the show using the link in the show notes. Or if you're watching us on YouTube, all you gotta do is go to the bottom of the screen and tap thanks and follow the prompts. You could also subscribe to get early access option on Apple podcasts, listen ad free and gain early access to episodes before they are released to the public. All of your support helps us to continue making this amazing content and podcast for you and supporting the community which we just talked about in depth. So, all right, guys, we thank you in advance and we'll see you at our next event. Have a good one.
• 56:18
  Speaker B: Ciao.