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Successful but Lonely (with Jason Gentile) · Evolutionary Men

0:00
Jason Lange: All right, and welcome back.
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I am pumped to have my buddy Jason Gentile on the show today, who's a men's work
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facilitator, leader, husband, and father of three who has spent over a decade
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immersed in transformational men's work.
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He facilitates ongoing men's circles and immersive weekend experiences through
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Remarkable Men's Practice and serves on the board of HumanMen, an organization
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dedicated to helping men.
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Jason Lange: Find meaningful brotherhood beyond any single methodology or organization.
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And outside of men's work, Jason is a director in the natural foods industry,
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bringing a grounded perspective on the intersection of professional leadership,
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marriage, fatherhood, and personal transformation.
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His work focuses on helping high-functioning men move beyond fear, shame, and
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emotional isolation toward greater self-leadership, deeper relationships.
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Jason Lange: and more fully lived lives.
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Right in Target for this episode for longtime listeners.
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And yeah, super excited to be here with you today, Jason.
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We met like a lot of my recent guests at the Big Tent conference recently and have
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had a a few opportunities to hang out locally here in Colorado over these last I
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guess months now.
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And very excited to have you on the show, my man.
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Jason Gentile: Yeah, Stoke is high.
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I appreciate it.
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Thanks for thanks for getting me on, man.
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Jason Lange: Yeah, and it's so great because we you know, in a lot of ways, anyone who just
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heard your description be like, that's basically all the stuff I always talk about.
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So it's super fun to have someone else right here in the space that has been
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walking the walks, so to speak.
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And yeah, I wanted to start with kind of getting your cut on, you know, the men
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you're most lit up to work with these days and kind of some of the misconceptions.
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Jason Lange: you see out there in terms of what what kind of men even end up doing this kind of
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work that you lead, I lead, etcetera.
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Jason Gentile: Love the question.
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Firstly, I gotta say there's not a one size fits all answer to that.
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But the thing that comes to mind for me from my heart is it's not men that are
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broken necessarily, right?
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And you know, that's a that's a loaded statement in and of itself, which we can
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unpack.
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But but men that are doing well, right, in their lives on on paper, maybe,
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Jason Gentile: But if you really got behind the mask, if you went beyond that resume, there's
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gonna be a lot of stuff that they might not say, they might not tell someone.
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And this work is a lot to to to those men, for sure.
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And those types of men, especially leaders, you know, if you're already a leader in
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your marriage, a a leader in your organization, a a leader in whatever it is that
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you're doing.
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Jason Gentile: it's really important to do this inner work so that you can actually show up well
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for your family, for for your partner, for your children.
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and so for me, those are the men that I'm the most passionate to work with because
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they really have skin in the game at this point and they have other other lives
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that they're somehow responsible for or a steward of in in some way.
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And if they don't show up, it causes pain.
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Jason Lange: Yeah, that's such a real thing that I've experienced and seen in the guys I work
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with.
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And I just want to highlight, I think part of what you're speaking to is sometimes
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the unseen pain of these men, in a sense, right?
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Because it's like, if I'm outwardly successful, I I've got the family, I've maybe I
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got a great career, I'm making some money, what do I have to complain about as a
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man?
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And
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Jason Lange: In our culture, right?
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We you and I have talked offline certainly about the provider trap, right?
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There's just a lot of default masculine culture is, well, as long as you're
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providing, you're doing well.
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But what that doesn't get to is some of what's going on inside, right?
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And certainly something that I think both of us have probably noticed.
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And what brings a man to this work when, yeah, you know, a lot of those boxes in a
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sense are checked, but then there's something else going on inside of him.
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Jason Gentile: Absolutely.
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Jason Lange: Yeah, and what what have you found like in terms of what actually gets a guy, this
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is one of my favorite questions, to show up and do some work with you or go on
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retreat with you.
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because you know, y i in in our world it feels like men's work's everywhere, but
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the truth is it's still pretty small in the culture in terms of how many men are
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actually stepping forward.
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Jason Lange: into this kind of internal journey.
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And, I certainly have my versions of what brings men to me.
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But yeah, I'm curious, have you noticed any themes or anything over the years that
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kind of underlines a lot of the men who show up?
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Jason Gentile: Absolutely.
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Because to your point, I think a lot of men, even if they're in a tremendous amount
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of pain, wouldn't admit that to themselves.
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men that are in a tremendous amount of fear would admit that to themselves.
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I've seen men that that literally say, like, I I I have no fear.
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And it this is it's, you know, the most fearful man I've I've ever seen type of
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situation.
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And it's so so I think some of these real obvious entry points,
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Jason Gentile: would be great if men would actually ask for help, but typically they don't.
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So what I've seen more commonly than anything else is is actually trust.
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You know, they have one man that they trust or one person that they trust.
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It could be maybe their partner that's like, hey, I think you should check out this
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men's work thing.
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at least in my experience, though, it's been more through some some man, right?
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Some man that like a man looks up to to some degree or at least has some trust and
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then
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Jason Gentile: that man says, hey, hey, look, I've I've got something for you.
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I think you should check this out.
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And it's not about selling anything at the end of the day.
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It's it's a it's a trust.
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You know, I I trust you that you're gonna take care of me and that there's
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something here for me.
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So having a relationship with some man that is doing his own work in this space, I
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think is the is the most organic way actually that I've seen men come in you know,
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than anything else.
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Jason Lange: Yeah, and I think helps get get over some of at least with guys I've worked with,
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some of the misconceptions about men's work is and what it might be doing, right?
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If if you just kinda on the outside, there's the jokes of, we're just gonna go into
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the forest and beat drums or sit around and crying.
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And that's still in the culture in terms of what people think the work is.
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And let me be clear, I've said this on previous episodes.
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Sometimes that happens, right?
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I've banged drums in the wilderness before.
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I've sat around crying with other men, but that's not all.
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Jason Lange: Men's work is.
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But the trust thing, right?
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Actually coming through another relationship, I think is so, so important.
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And particularly for us men, in a moment in culture, right, where there's just so
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much information.
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There's this flood of stuff online, you know, do this, do this, do this.
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It actually really helps when it's a relationship with someone I know that's like,
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hey, I did this thing and it impacted me like this.
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Jason Lange: Right.
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So maybe you might want to try it.
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Jason Gentile: Exactly, exactly.
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Which, you know, is one of the reasons anyway for for me personally and my own
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journey that i I wanted to be on this podcast.
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I've been kinda under the radar personally on a lot of this work for many, many,
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many years.
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And a lot of that reason has been, there's so many others in the space.
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What y you know, why why do I, right, need to add my my piece to that?
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And this is a call, y you know, from me being in that position.
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Jason Gentile: To to say, right, to all the men out there that maybe do need to speak about
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something, do it, man.
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Like your voice is valuable, and not in a narcissistic like you must do this for
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your mission or something.
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But it's but it's like, look, man, we all need to help each other out.
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And if you have something important to say, if you have something that's gonna help
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somebody, you gotta do that.
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Jason Lange: Yeah.
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And so talk to me about you know, you named this already, but this this is some of
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the big stuff I think that hits a lot of these men we're talking about here.
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Fear, shame, the the tendency for us men to kind of oop keep it inside, keep it
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inside, keep it inside, right?
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Don't ask for help.
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Stuff I've certainly talked about before.
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Jason Lange: Have you seen that show up, A, in your own life?
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And B, how about with some of the guys you've worked with?
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Jason Gentile: Yeah, absol absolutely.
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And again I think it's the
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Jason Gentile: The fear, even or or maybe not the fears, cause I'm about to talk about fear, but
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the the stigma that's attached to even those words, right?
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Fear, shame, like am I taking that on as an identity?
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Are these men taking it on as an identity?
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Am I a fearful man?
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Am I a man that is in shame?
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Like most of us want to say no to that to that question, even if there's absolutely
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flavors of that that are running through rampant, you know, different areas of our
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lives.
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so yeah.
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Jason Gentile: I I definitely see it in my own life.
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I see it in the men that come in.
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but sometimes it's it's not the front door.
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And and I think that's the biggest thing to speak to here, at least for me, that
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again, it's not conscious necessarily.
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It's just like a it's a it's a, you know, maybe I'm unsettled or shit, maybe I had
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too much coffee, something like that.
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Like we we we can't call it what it actually is because of the stigma in society
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that those things are not masculine.
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Jason Gentile: that those things will push us outside of you know the
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Jason Gentile: the accepted version of of masculinity.
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So this this whole topic is is really charged, I think, right now.
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And I actually see it on both sides because there's those of us that are really
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pushing for this new look and, you know, whatever term you want to put, whether
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it's mature masculinity or you know, a more you know, man you wanna be, like w what
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what is that exactly?
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and is that someone that's like dominating?
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Jason Gentile: or is that someone that's heart led?
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Like there's not really a clear answer within the, you know, quote unquote men's
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space work.
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And and I think that throws a lot of people off because we're we're trying to
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Jason Gentile: remold what it means to be a man.
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And there's a lot of different opinions right now going around about what that is.
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Jason Gentile: So anyhow, I I think even within that, the point on shame and you know, fear that
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you asked is who who is going to shame us?
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Who who are we afraid of?
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What you know what what's behind all of that stuff.
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And again, I think because the whole construct of masculinity is changing so much,
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it's a little bit challenging to know who's in front of us at any given time, even
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on on those topics.
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Jason Lange: Totally.
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And yeah, it's so ripe in the air right now of w what are we growing toward as men,
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right?
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And I think that's been
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Jason Lange: A big pain point, certainly something that was talked about a lot about at the
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conference of well, in a vacuum of a clear model for where to grow to, all kinds of
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garbage and trash can fill the space, as I will rather judgmentally call much of
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what's out there in the the kind of manosphere and red pill of like, we're just
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gonna go back to this fictional time in the past that never really existed, but was
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certainly far more of a a a dominance.
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Jason Lange: Oriented culture for men over everything else.
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And yeah, you know, men's work, the kinds of spaces you lead, the kinds of spaces
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I'm interested in.
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This is where we're trying to discover what this is like.
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And to take it back to, you know, your kind of one-on-one thing.
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Certainly in my life, where I've often felt it is the unique connection I feel
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man-to-man, where it's like, wow.
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Jason Lange: Whatever water this guy is swimming in, that feels good to me.
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Right?
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I feel his power, I feel his heart, I feel his presence, I feel his groundedness.
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And whether I have a you know big labels for that or not, yet I've certainly
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noticed, yeah, there's certain men I get around and my nervous system relaxes.
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And that's like, I I want a
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Jason Gentile: Yeah.
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Yeah.
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Jason Lange: little bit of that.
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And I think that's kind of
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Jason Lange: part of what we're trying to figure out almost retreat by retreat at this point in
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in terms of okay, well what is this?
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What is this we're cultivating together?
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Jason Gentile: Yeah, yeah.
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And it's it's interesting too.
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So I've I've been doing men's work now, again in quotations, this whole whole men's
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work, like what is that even, right?
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Is a is its own topic.
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but this transformational work with with other males, right?
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but I was doing other transformational work for ten years before that, and and I
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had a lot of resistance to this idea of working with men.
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Like, why why would I even do that versus just like why put gender into this mix?
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Jason Gentile: And and again, back to this fear, back to this shame.
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I didn't have good experiences with men, especially groups of men.
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I had good experiences with individual men one-on-one, but you know, like you're
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saying, but then it's like suddenly you have these men in a group, and it's it's
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it's it gets there's a a lot of destruction that has been caused, you know, and so
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there's this there's this big gap.
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first of all, I think in the culture that we're trying to
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Jason Gentile: Bridge that that is like, look, we can be men in a group.
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we can be men in circle, we can be men collecting together, that isn't aggressive
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and destructive and that is holistic and that is healing.
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And so there's a whole narrative shift, I think in in culture that needs to happen
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with that.
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And again, back to the the speaking, right?
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Like we we have to speak it in, we have to bring it in, we have to make that happen.
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Jason Gentile: Because who else is gonna do it, right?
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Jason Lange: Mm-hmm.
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Yeah, and you the way you just phrased that makes me think of it was probably a
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couple of years ago now, right?
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Sophie Strand's book, what was it called?
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The Flowering Wand, right?
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Which
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Jason Gentile: Mm-hmm.
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Jason Lange: kind of came out to
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Jason Lange: Start to recontextualize in the the story of masculinity in that, yeah, most of the
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time now masculinity is associated with like a destructive cutting kind of element.
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And certainly I would say big groups of men.
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When we think of the idea of a big group of men, we're thinking of some kind of
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destruction, war, chaos a lot of the times, right, in our culture.
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and her
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Jason Lange: Her book was really pointing to, well, go back far enough and hopefully where we're
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rounding back to, there's a version of masculinity that's actually generative.
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It's creative.
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It's about creation and generating something positive.
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And I think that's probably another way for me to think about what the men's work
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movement can be right now.
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And at a very personal level for a lot of men, to start to recontextualize
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Jason Gentile: Yeah.
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Jason Lange: what it means to be in a group of men, which for a lot of guys I work with.
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Jason Lange: some of their greatest traumas and hurts have actually come from other men in
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group, right?
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That locker room culture, the all the gnarly ways boys and men can sometimes treat
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each other.
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So just getting back into a space with a bunch of guys in a room can be like, wow,
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my nervous system is vigilant.
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It's it's up for a lot of men when they first come.
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And then getting to rewire that story of, but that's not how it has to be.
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Jason Lange: Right, there's there's
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Jason Gentile: Exactly.
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Jason Lange: these other experiences possible.
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Jason Gentile: Yeah.
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Yeah.
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And beautiful experiences, right?
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That I mean, I'm
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Jason Lange: Yeah.
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Jason Gentile: sure we've we've encountered and the men that we work with and
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Jason Gentile: And it's important.
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It's it's really it's it's important to make that more visible.
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Jason Lange: Yeah.
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And to
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Jason Lange: I think i in some sense as we start to recreate that in our rooms, so to speak,
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with other men, then we have the ability to start to bring that out into the world
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in different ways and retell these stories.
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And, it is a challenge right now.
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I over the last weeks certainly I've had this feeling left like, my God, there's
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this tender little flame of men's work right now that
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Jason Gentile: Yeah.
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Jason Lange: has has been kind of growing a little bit over the last weeks and months.
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And something like Cornell comes in and the fucked up thing is, you know, a
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fraternity is a kind of men's group, right?
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It's a kind
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Jason Gentile: Yep.
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Yep.
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Jason Lange: of group of men.
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And I'm like, my God, it's it we're like right on the precipice where all this
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stuff could get lumped together so fast.
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Cause that's another example of kind of the destructive power of when kind of
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unconscious men get together and there's not a whole lot of
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Jason Lange: Just awareness and consciousness is what what's going on there.
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And so yeah, I I I just noticed in these last weeks I was feeling protective of
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like, my God, like if the shoe drops right now and this tender flame starts getting
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heat from the the the media, that's gonna be disastrous.
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And we do need to speak up in terms of like, hey, that is not all of it, right?
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What the kinds of things we're cultivating in the spaces we create is extremely
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different.
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Jason Lange: From most of what's put out there in in in mainstream press.
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Jason Gentile: Yeah.
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Yeah.
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And it's it's finding the finding the courage to really say that is not okay.
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Just,
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Jason Lange: Yeah.
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Jason Gentile: directly, not beating around the bush.
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And and it's that courage.
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again, for for me, at least just to maybe speak on the Cornell piece for a little
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bit, the you know, the the men that actually you know did the rape, okay.
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it's it's the other ones, right?
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For me that I got the most triggered by, that it's like
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Jason Lange: Yeah.
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Jason Gentile: How is it that all of y'all were on this chat and and you didn't speak up?
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And then I started, again, that was my own shadow work again.
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And it's like, well, where haven't I spoken up in my life?
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And it doesn't have to be something that egregious, you know, but it can be, it can
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be whatever.
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And it's, it's like, well, shit, that I don't speak up a lot, actually, you know,
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in in my life.
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And and in those minor instances, if I don't have the courage to do that, then if
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presented with something big, like, what would I do?
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Jason Gentile: what would I would I speak up?
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And it's and so I think that unsettledness is something that all of us need to feel
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and all of us really need to embody and and be like, well, well damn, like it's not
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these guys over here and then me in my little ivory tower, it's like, no, man, like
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we we all we all have responsibility in in in this shadow work, ultimately is is
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how I see it and and just exposing the things that are not aligned.
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Jason Gentile: within ourselves and and where we hold back and again back into the shame and sort
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of like aren't quite ready to ruffle the feathers
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Jason Lange: Mm-hmm.
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Jason Gentile: because of whatever you know that will be considered an outsider.
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So like you said, it w we gotta protect we gotta protect that little flame.
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Jason Gentile: We gotta protect it.
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Jason Lange: Yeah.
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Yeah.
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the Cornell even came up in a men's group I'm in recently and it it was extremely
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uncomfortable, right?
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We tend to on our group not most groups I'm in I I tend to stay away from
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Jason Lange: conceptual discussions of we're going
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Jason Gentile: Mm-hmm.
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Jason Lange: to talk about what's going on in politics or culture.
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And it's about personal lives and what's going on.
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but a man brought this in and it actually felt important for us to talk about.
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And it was contentious in the group because some guys were like, this is not why we
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meet.
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we don't meet to talk about these kinds of things.
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And then it was like, well, if we don't talk about it, who the fuck will?
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Right?
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Like this was part of like, we have to take responsibility.
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Like it's it's great to think that's just over there.
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But if
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Jason Lange: Us in this space aren't willing to talk about this.
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literally, who's going to?
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No, none of those guys are going to take responsibility in a sense.
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So it's on us who have a little more skin in the game to step in and start to talk
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about and look at, what what was really going on here.
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And I think I think you're right.
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I'm so I'm so with you.
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And I've been on my own journey of what does it mean to I'll put my voice out there.
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And, you know, it's funny over the
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Jason Lange: the last years on social media in particular, I I have my my my reaction sometimes
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to the more divine masculine, the the way we talk about we need the divine
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masculine and all that.
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And I do think we're actually at a moment in our culture where I think one of the
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big things that's missing is voices to step in and say, don't fucking do that.
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Don't don't do that.
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Stop it.
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Like
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Jason Lange: it it it it sounds ridiculous, but in a parental no, w some limits need to be set
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here on what behavior is considered okay and what is not.
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And I do think that's an area where a lot of men have been dropping the ball in
22:28
particular.
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And, you know, the feminine women have been like trying to step in and they just
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need some support, right?
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Like, hey, let's get unified in this voice as to what's okay and and and what's not.
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Jason Lange: In that, across culture, I think one of the things we've lost in the last two
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decades is, something that's so important to the work we talk about, which is
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accountability, right?
22:53
Which is not
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Jason Gentile: Yes.
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Jason Lange: you did something wrong, now you're a horrible person, but it's hey, what happened
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there had a huge impact.
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How are you going to help bring it back to harmony, to repair, to, to, to learn
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from that experience?
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And that has just
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Jason Lange: Fallen off the rails in our culture, in my opinion.
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Jason Gentile: Yeah, yeah.
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And and to your point, and on different approaches, right?
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And at least for me as I've seen the role in in men's work or or more the masculine
23:20
practice is accountability, but in a in a direct way.
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I'll I'll give like a a small aside.
23:25
So I had a dentist appointment last week, and I'm not the best at flossing my
23:29
teeth, right?
23:30
Many of us probably are are not.
23:32
And the dental hygienist is in there
23:34
Jason Lange: Ha ha
23:36
Jason Gentile: and kind of like very passively being like, Yeah, you know, should probably you
23:41
should probably
23:42
Jason Gentile: Floss your teeth more because yeah, you know, whatever.
23:44
Jason Lange: Yeah.
23:45
Jason Gentile: finally the dentist comes in and he's just like, dude, like what is going on?
23:50
I'm about to scrape all this plaque off your teeth.
23:53
This is gonna hurt a lot because you're not you're not fucking doing this basic
23:58
thing, man.
23:59
And I was like, damn, like, yes, you know, you're right.
24:02
But like I feel like we've lost the courage to speak directly on some basic shit.
24:08
And that that has to change.
24:10
Jason Gentile: That has to change.
24:11
And for me, that's a lot of this that's the masculine role that you're talking
24:16
about of creation, of, of preservation, of we we can't kind of like politically
24:22
walk on eggshells around around some of these things.
24:25
It's like, look, man, like speak.
24:28
So that's my
24:29
Jason Lange: Yeah, and
24:32
Jason Lange: I love it.
24:32
I'm learning how to do that myself every day.
24:35
And yeah.
24:36
Jason Gentile: Me and me too, right?
24:37
Like we
24:38
Jason Gentile: we learn as we go.
24:39
Jason Lange: And it does help though, being in groups, because that is a place where I get to
24:44
practice that.
24:45
Right.
24:46
I I for me, I love the men's groups I'm in because it becomes very concrete in
24:52
terms of if I'm in a moment and I can feel where I am withholding and not speaking
24:58
something because my God, it might ruffle a feather, I might be wrong, who knows?
25:04
Jason Lange: week in, week out at this point, I get to have those experiences and I'm
25:07
cultivating and learning to trust more of okay, it's not even that I have to be
25:12
right when I share these things, but it's more important for me to bring it, it's
25:16
better for me to bring it forward and be wrong than to not bring it forward, I
25:20
think is what I'm learning.
25:22
because that's how
25:23
Jason Gentile: Absolutely.
25:23
Jason Lange: I can be of the deepest service because when something hits or lands or when
25:26
someone else is the one who offers me that kind of feedback and accountability.
25:31
Jason Lange: It really matters, right?
25:32
When the dentist cuts through and is just like, dude, floss your teeth.
25:36
get on it.
25:37
I'm not gonna sugarcoat this.
25:38
you're an adult.
25:39
Let's let's do it.
25:40
Right.
25:41
so I don't have to get in there and clean things up all the time.
25:45
Jason Gentile: Yeah, yeah.
25:48
Jason Lange: and so yeah, talk to me a little bit about, what have you experienced or seen in
25:53
particular in terms of the power of, you're someone like you said, you've been in a
25:58
transformational journey for a long time, done a lot of self-work.
26:02
And then you discover brotherhood in men's circles.
26:05
what what what to you has been impactful about that format or that structure or
26:10
that style of growth as opposed to some of the other things you've done?
26:15
Jason Gentile: Yeah, my favorite thing is I think of it almost as this like circle of mirrors,
26:21
more or less, and
26:23
Jason Lange: Mm.
26:23
Jason Gentile: and each each man is gonna reflect back how he sees you.
26:26
and you know, to your point, he some man may say something and it might not hit,
26:31
but like if you've got, you know, six or eight men all all in the room and
26:35
everybody's giving you these reflections, the sum aggregate of that at the end of
26:40
the day is is gonna have an impact.
26:43
Jason Gentile: it certainly has been the most interesting thing for me with within the work is
26:47
that it's not, you know, one facilitator or, you know, one person in authority
26:52
that's necessarily like, you know, standing above but it's you're in this, you're
26:56
in this circle, right?
26:57
Of of like, hey, we all we see this, or or more specifically, not even in the we
27:02
space, but the I, like a a man, will see something, say something, and then you and
27:07
then we have to sit with it, right?
27:09
And be like, hmm, is there is there something to that or or not?
27:13
Jason Gentile: But I got into all of the men's work myself right after I got married.
27:17
And I I remember the first weekend I was at, I had this whole idea of of myself.
27:22
And I showed up and just, it was something like 60 men, just reflecting back like
27:28
what they saw.
27:29
And didn't match.
27:30
It just didn't didn't match my own inner image.
27:33
And I was just like, well shit, like I there's the there's a big gap here between
27:38
how I'm actually showing up and and how I'm like in fantasy land about my life.
27:43
And
27:44
Jason Gentile: That's really valuable, especially with the isolation and the social media and and
27:49
all this.
27:50
Like we we are in our own realities in so many ways.
27:53
And when you're in a group with other real humans, you know, reflecting it back in
27:59
in real time, something really special happens that is very missing, I I think, in
28:04
in culture at large, where everything is kind of bubble wrapped and again,
28:09
everybody's kind of trying to.
28:12
Jason Gentile: Not ruffle feathers.
28:13
At least the circles that I've been in, one of the standards is it's like you t you
28:19
tell the truth.
28:20
You say it like it is.
28:21
And like like you said, sometimes it's it's it can get kind of like, ooh, you know,
28:27
maybe this is a little this is kind of a lot.
28:30
but it's worth it, it's real.
28:32
And I haven't seen an arena especially like the ones that that we're speaking to,
28:38
you know, you you alluded before, but like an ongoing.
28:42
Jason Gentile: I think is really helpful that's that's consistent.
28:44
Cause I've also seen there's the pop-in type of groups, which are great in their
28:49
own ways.
28:50
but if you can get into something consistently with men that you really have to
28:54
show up at whatever cadence it is, it could be every week, every two weeks, every
28:59
whatever.
28:59
But it's like you're consistently gonna show up and get these men reflecting back
29:04
what they see.
29:05
And it over time, it it makes a big difference for every man that that I've seen
29:09
that's able to like
29:11
Jason Gentile: Handle that level of truth.
29:13
Jason Lange: Yeah, the way you just phrased that makes me think of, it really is one of the I
29:19
guess you could say, killer features of of men's group in particular, in terms of
29:26
it can be a congruence machine.
29:29
And what I mean by that is the that that circle of mirrors, in a sense, can be a
29:35
really potent tool for offering us feedback about.
29:40
Jason Lange: How we can get aligned with our inner identity and our self-sense and what's
29:44
actually showing up on the outside.
29:47
And sometimes those two things can be in some places really close, but in other
29:52
places really off.
29:53
But a good group through that consistent feedback, it actually helps us get, you
29:58
know, more aligned.
30:00
It helps, it has helped me get more aligned, right?
30:03
In terms of I think you know, I'm thinking one thing.
30:07
Jason Lange: in my own mind about how something is.
30:09
And then I start to get reflection if people are like,
30:12
da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da.
30:14
And then I'm like, well, what yeah, there there's a gap there.
30:17
And I have to update.
30:18
And sometimes it's like, okay, that feedback is maybe a little bit off.
30:22
But a lot of times it's, something how I'm relating to myself or this problem or
30:27
this idea inside, that actually needs to update.
30:30
And this new data coming in from from the the guys in my group,
30:34
Jason Lange: Often helps me do that, right?
30:35
It was one of the things that really you know, I had a chunk of work maybe three or
30:41
four years ago around just a deep cut of shame and self-loathing.
30:45
I was totally disconnected from that
30:48
Jason Gentile: Yeah.
30:48
Jason Lange: guys just kept gently putting pushing naming to me, and then no, no, no, no, no,
30:53
no, you and like kind of my thing would come back.
30:57
And then finally I was like, wow, I they're right.
31:01
I am I'm really harsh with myself and
31:04
Jason Lange: I had to really come to terms with with that and start to work that in different
31:10
ways.
31:10
And it took gentle, consistent reflection that I would have just minimized in other
31:17
environments, I think.
31:19
Jason Gentile: Yeah, yeah.
31:19
And and one of my kind of mentors within the yoga space anyway, he put something
31:24
out recently about surrender, in general as a process, but in a positive way, right?
31:30
Like the the surrendering
31:32
Jason Lange: Yeah.
31:33
Jason Gentile: to
31:37
Jason Gentile: truth at at the end of the day or or w whatnot.
31:39
But this idea of like a flag, if you think about it, you know, the white flag going
31:43
up, it's like, we would love to think we can just do it all at once.
31:46
But generally speaking, that's not the way it works.
31:48
It's like you kind of like put up the the tip and then, okay, I surrender that much
31:52
and then I can surrender this much.
31:54
And it's like, so through these groups, we're able over time just to finally
31:58
actually get to the place where we're like, okay, I can just fully let it go now.
32:02
Jason Lange: Yeah.
32:04
Jason Gentile: You know, and it's
32:07
Jason Gentile: Takes patience.
32:09
Jason Lange: It so so does take patience.
32:11
And we were talking about with accountability, I think it's one of the few spaces
32:19
where
32:20
Jason Lange: We can be tracked, right?
32:21
Just very simple.
32:23
This is something I see more and more now in the groups I lead and certainly have
32:29
experienced myself that I think one of the unique textures of masculine love is
32:35
just feeling tracked.
32:36
While somebody is paying attention to me, my behavior, my choices, and what's
32:42
happening in my life.
32:44
And I think a lot of the so called, you know, the
32:48
Jason Lange: the male loneliness crisis and a lot of male pain out there is, and I hear this
32:53
from guys I work with that, it doesn't feel like anyone's tracking me.
32:57
I I could leave tomorrow and it wouldn't matter, right?
33:01
Because no, I I'm not in anyone's awareness.
33:04
Jason Gentile: Yeah.
33:08
Jason Lange: And that's one of the great things I think a group gets to bring is wow, that that
33:13
that feels like love, right?
33:15
And and this is I think particularly for men, it's that flavor of love of wow,
33:21
someone loves me enough to call me forward on my bullshit.
33:25
Or where there's dissonance in my behavior or my choices, you know, which at first
33:31
is like, ooh, yeah, you're right.
33:33
Fuck, I don't want, you're right.
33:36
Jason Lange: And that that exhale you just you you you you put out there so brilliantly is often
33:40
what I'll feel of like, once the truth
33:42
Jason Gentile: Yeah.
33:43
Jason Lange: is spoken and felt, it does tend to relax certainly my nervous system.
33:50
Jason Gentile: yeah.
33:50
And it's and it's it's so wild too.
33:52
Like I've seen time and time again, you know, a man comes in really guarded and is
33:57
as soon as you do get to that exhale moment, you know, whatever it is, it's like
34:03
suddenly everyone trusts that man so much more.
34:06
You know?
34:06
And and it's it's it's really beautiful to witness.
34:10
It's beautiful to be on the other side of that, you know.
34:13
As you're saying, you've experienced it yourself personally, but but it's it's
34:19
Jason Gentile: It's scary to to get to that place.
34:21
Jason Lange: Mm-hmm.
34:21
Jason Gentile: I think as a man to fully just be in that space of like, okay, especially like we
34:26
were saying, in a group of men, right?
34:29
And maybe you've done it
34:31
Jason Lange: Yeah.
34:32
Jason Gentile: one on one with a therapist or something, but it feels differently.
34:36
It it feels very different, in a group of men that you trust.
34:41
Jason Lange: Yeah.
34:41
And so pivoting a little bit here, talk to me about, you know, one of the things
34:47
you kind of named, which I'm really curious about, is the shift from just
34:52
self-improvement towards kind of self-leadership.
34:56
And in your experience and the ways you you you you work with clients, kind of
35:01
what's going on there and what's what's the difference?
35:05
What do you see?
35:07
Jason Gentile: Yeah.
35:07
So I think certainly there's this tendency to get in a self improvement loop, right?
35:12
Where it's like you're always just trying to one up someone and it almost becomes
35:17
this competition with I'll even speak for myself as I've experienced it.
35:21
It hasn't necessarily been like the comparison game with with others, but it's it's
35:27
with myself, right?
35:28
And so I'll be like, Okay, well, you're doing great, but you know, you could be
35:33
doing better.
35:34
Jason Gentile: But you get to the mountaintop and then you see the next one, right?
35:38
And so there's this there's no ability in this quest for continued self-im
35:44
improvement to to actually just embody our lives and just appreciate where we are.
35:50
So for me, first of all, I like the self-improvement thing, I think is a trap.
35:55
a different context, right?
35:57
The self-leadership is like, well, you know what?
36:01
Like my life is this grand adventure.
36:04
Jason Gentile: and I'm leading this adventure, and there's going to be many mountains that I'm
36:09
going to climb.
36:09
There's gonna be many things that I'm going to do.
36:13
but but can I actually be present in those things?
36:16
Can I actually appreciate those things?
36:18
Can I, you know, do amazing in my job, but then go put that down and just play with
36:23
my son?
36:24
You know?
36:25
Can can I do that?
36:26
and to me that's the the self-leadership piece, more so than the just
36:30
self-improvement, because the self-improvement is is is
36:34
Jason Gentile: targeted, I think, at certain areas, but it doesn't encompass an integrated view of
36:41
one's life.
36:42
so that's kind of my loose explanation.
36:46
Jason Lange: Y yeah, and it it strikes me as in some ways a a different kind of provider trap,
36:52
which is this kind of endless growth, self improvement thing.
36:57
That's certainly the kind of biohacking, even to the men's work space, the kind of
37:04
transformational growth.
37:06
I've kind of got sucked into it before of just i there's the next thing and you
37:12
know, these days
37:14
Jason Lange: Again, because of things like this, podcasts, audiobooks, there is just so much
37:18
inform.
37:19
my, I gotta go regulate my nervous system.
37:21
I gotta go do plant medicine.
37:23
I gotta do all these things.
37:25
I gotta do all these things.
37:26
I gotta do all these things.
37:28
And you can be on that rat race, so to speak, of becoming a better human your whole
37:33
life.
37:33
And just like with the provider trap, actually miss your life, right?
37:37
The the relationships you have available, the experiences you have available in,
37:42
you know, in in another
37:44
Jason Lange: It just i in some ways becomes another manifestation of the, it this particularly
37:49
great masculine myth of once I X, then I'll finally feel X, Y, and Z, right?
37:54
Once I get the paycheck, once I get the abs, once I get the hair transplant, once I
38:00
get the wife.
38:01
But it's also like, once I do enough ayahuasca, once I do enough of this, once I do
38:07
enough of this, then I'll finally and
38:10
Jason Lange: Certainly self leadership in a sense, from what I hear from you, is sometimes just
38:14
knowing and sometimes you gotta stop and smell the roses, right?
38:18
And look at the other areas of your life as well.
38:21
Jason Gentile: Yeah, yeah.
38:21
And and the other piece too that feels important to me is is choice is in there,
38:29
Jason Lange: Mm.
38:29
Jason Gentile: in a very significant way.
38:30
When I think of le leadership at the end of the day, you're the one that is y you
38:36
got a compass, right?
38:37
And you're like, All right, I I choose I choose to go this way instead of just, you
38:43
know, allowing the wind to kind of blow where it where it where it will.
38:47
And
38:48
Jason Gentile: Flow certainly is is great.
38:49
you gotta be open to the flow of life, but also, you know, be at the be at the
38:53
wheel, right, of your ship, of your
38:55
Jason Lange: Mm-hmm.
38:56
Jason Gentile: car, what whatever it is, and and have some agency in in all of this.
39:00
And again, to your point, it doesn't have to just be providership.
39:03
It can be relationships, it can be any number of things.
39:07
And and depending on your framing and lens, there's a lot of different things that
39:11
you can point that at.
39:13
and that's to me, again, where it becomes so exciting is it's like,
39:17
Jason Gentile: Great.
39:17
I there's there's so much cool shit, y that we can get
39:20
Jason Gentile: into and and really just become the
39:27
Jason Gentile: the conscious captains of our of our lives, so to speak.
39:33
And
39:34
Jason Lange: Yeah, that's such
39:35
Jason Gentile: It's nice.
39:35
Jason Lange: a great I I really like that frame because, you know, it it actually leaves space
39:40
for I'm realizing, you know, this kind of sailing analogy is so great.
39:45
because it's not just brute force.
39:47
I'm gonna I'm gonna row against the current here and grind my way to over here.
39:52
It's well, there's a draft, right?
39:55
There's actual an energetic flow in my life.
39:58
I can either fight that or
40:00
Jason Lange: Or I can learn to work with that and harness it, but it still needs to be
40:04
channeled, right?
40:05
If I don't have a sail, I can't do anything with that flow, in a sense.
40:10
So I gotta have a sail.
40:11
I gotta have some structure in order to capture that flow.
40:15
And then we can kind of work together to get, you know, wherever it is I might want
40:20
to go.
40:21
And that fluidity, I think, is more and more what's maybe part of the water we're
40:26
swimming in in men's work here of like, well, the old just.
40:30
Jason Lange: grind, brace through, kind of push against all odds, which so many men I work with.
40:36
That is like never quit, never give up, right?
40:40
You're just gonna do whatever it takes and damn the consequences to you, your body,
40:47
your health, your family, your relationships.
40:51
That's what it means to win.
40:53
And what I hear you speaking about is something far more nuanced and
40:59
Jason Lange: Frankly, less oppositional.
41:02
Jason Gentile: It is.
41:02
And speaking to the opposition point, the other piece too is it's like we're not
41:07
the only boat on the water, right?
41:09
And so it's like when you do have
41:12
Jason Lange: Yeah, yeah.
41:13
Jason Gentile: all these other captains, like in that metaphor, it's like, well, no, like we can
41:16
have this grand adventure together, actually.
41:18
And then again, you get into the isolation piece of it because that's that's the
41:22
other
41:23
Jason Lange: Yeah.
41:23
Jason Gentile: thing of self-improvement.
41:24
It's like self-improvement.
41:26
You know, it it's it can be very about about I, about me, about it's it's not
41:31
Jason Gentile: there's no community.
41:32
And what's so cool about the men's work, it's like, all right, great.
41:36
So what if I'm in this space of all these men that are really working towards their
41:41
own self leadership, that are working towards you know, just being the best version
41:46
of themselves, but not just for them, but for again, for all those relationships
41:51
that go outwards.
41:52
So you end up having this whole system and and community.
41:56
Jason Gentile: at the end of the day, which is what many of us, certainly I speak for myself, felt
42:01
like I missed for so long.
42:03
I was just like, man, just want someone to get me and it's in these spaces, you get
42:09
there.
42:10
Jason Lange: Yeah, absolutely.
42:11
And I think that's the revelation so many men I work with in different groups have
42:16
when they get in.
42:17
I was just I had a call Monday night and one of the guys is like, It's it's so wild.
42:23
We just have permission to become friends here.
42:26
Like, just you're all my friends now.
42:29
And and like it's it sounds kind of silly, but it's a real experience.
42:33
So many men in particular, but I think adults is just the the way things get
42:38
structured, like
42:40
Jason Lange: Becomes hard to build these relationships where we get known.
42:44
And something like a men's group, retreat, we'll talk about, or program, that
42:49
structure is creating some of the permission to let's go deeper, let's connect fast.
42:55
It doesn't have to take forever.
42:58
And let's actually know each other in the ways that often fills that void so many
43:03
of us feel when we don't have community around us and when our life is just a, you
43:09
know.
43:10
Jason Lange: parasocial flood of social media taking us over every day, which is so different
43:15
than actually being in connection with someone who gets to know me, I get to know
43:20
them, and we have a relationship that unfolds over time.
43:24
Jason Gentile: And I also wanna speak to something just so that it's out there.
43:27
one of my best friends from college, we were living in LA.
43:31
We lived literally eight blocks from each other.
43:33
it would be like six months would go by, you know, that we wouldn't see each other,
43:38
et cetera.
43:39
eventually he does come to one of these weekends with me.
43:42
We end up getting into a men's group together, and then we're seeing each other
43:47
every week.
43:48
But the point is the structure of actually having
43:51
Jason Gentile: the space there and it's like, okay, yep, I'm gonna do this.
43:54
I have it on my calendar.
43:56
It it really helps.
43:57
it it helps like so much because otherwise at least most men, you're maybe trying
44:02
to squeeze that stuff in between the rest of your your life.
44:05
And frankly what happens is you just don't do it.
44:08
It's like, well, okay, either I'm gonna go to the gym or maybe I'm gonna hang out
44:13
with you.
44:14
Okay, probably I'm gonna, you know what I'm gonna go to the gym, actually.
44:18
Like ends up what happens.
44:20
Jason Gentile: So anyhow, I thought these things were ridiculous in the beginning because it was
44:24
so con contrived.
44:25
I'm like, well, why why why would I need a space, right?
44:29
to get to get together wh when I can just do this ad hoc.
44:32
But but it but again, that example of just i i reality happens and once you're out
44:37
of high school, you're out of college, etc., you're really busy with life.
44:41
And and so if you don't consciously
44:44
Jason Lange: Yeah.
44:44
Jason Gentile: choose this community,
44:48
Jason Gentile: It just kinda falls off and then we're like, Why am I isolated?
44:51
So just speaking to that piece directly as well.
44:54
Jason Lange: Yeah, that it's been so true in my life and as I've gotten older and had kids, I
44:59
don't have much time to socialize.
45:01
it's just not the life stage I'm in right now.
45:04
But my men's groups and I'm in a few, but they allow me it like I just tell guys
45:09
like it's so damn efficient.
45:11
Like that's one of the reasons I like it.
45:14
I'm like, if I tried to keep up with the other eight men in my local group and
45:19
doing kind of the one on one thing.
45:22
Jason Lange: I would see them maybe once a year.
45:24
And frankly, I have actually solo seen them each about once a year.
45:27
That's about how much I can do it.
45:29
But the group allows me to keep in touch with them all twice a month.
45:34
I'm getting updates.
45:35
I feel very connected to them in their lives.
45:37
They know what's going on in my life.
45:40
And it's just extremely efficient.
45:42
You know, it's about four hours a month.
45:44
And I'm maintaining really important relationships to me that help me feel like I
45:49
belong.
45:49
I have community.
45:50
I have a sense of place.
45:52
Jason Lange: in the world and that frankly, are the guys I call in in the emergencies when I
45:56
when when I need to hit the back dial and whatever it is i in my life.
46:00
And yeah, without that structure, particularly I I used to live in LA too, right?
46:05
It'd be like just seeing someone was like traveling to Mordor and Lord of the Rings.
46:10
It's like this thing, And even if they're
46:13
Jason Gentile: Yeah.
46:13
Jason Lange: eight blocks away, there's a just a certain energy to the that city where community
46:19
doesn't necessarily happen.
46:21
Jason Lange: On accident, it has to be super intentional.
46:23
And I think that's often what happens as we get older.
46:26
when we're young in school, community is just there.
46:29
It it's like you don't have to cultivate it quite as much, but as you get older,
46:34
you have to bring more intention to it.
46:36
And I think men's community, men's work, men's circles, men's retreats are a place
46:41
where that structure can just help you get over the hump.
46:45
it'd be like,
46:46
Jason Gentile: Yeah.
46:47
Jason Lange: it's hygiene.
46:48
I consider it for my social life.
46:51
Jason Gentile: Absolutely.
46:51
And y you said something that I don't want to skip over also about when an
46:55
emergency comes up, right?
46:56
And then it's like you have someone to actually call.
46:59
Because if you haven't seen that person for a year or whatever, like you're you're
47:03
much less likely to call whoever, you know, for help.
47:06
because there's like so much you would need to catch up on, et cetera, blah, blah,
47:10
blah, blah, blah.
47:11
But the beauty of it is it's like, well, no, I see this person all the time.
47:15
I see these people all the time.
47:17
And especially
47:18
Jason Gentile: given that there are multiple of them, it's like, well damn, something's going on
47:22
with my marriage.
47:23
I'm gonna call this guy Joe, whatever, because he's just he's on that and and it
47:27
can be 30 seconds.
47:28
we don't have to have a conversation that's going on and on and on.
47:31
It's like you say the thing, you slam down the phone.
47:34
you know, but but
47:35
Jason Lange: Yeah.
47:35
Jason Gentile: it but it helps and it gets us out of our heads and it and it gets us like out of
47:40
fights with our partners and out of bad business deals and and and all that.
47:45
And it's efficient.
47:47
Jason Gentile: Like like you said, it's it's really it's really efficient and effective.
47:48
Jason Lange: Yeah.
47:49
And
47:51
Jason Lange: it strikes me, I mean, this was somebody in one of my local groups had this
47:55
experience this year where, you know, he was never somebody who reached out in the
47:59
past.
47:59
It was not a habit he was in and it caused all kinds of downstream challenges for
48:04
him.
48:04
But what he discovered is, well, the beauty of a group is if I put out the signal
48:09
to my group, in any given day, you know, in our group we have nine, which is pretty
48:13
big, but one guy's generally available.
48:16
Jason Lange: And so he's gonna get
48:16
Jason Gentile: Mm-hmm.
48:17
Jason Lange: something back versus if I've only got a friend or two and I'm in emergency and
48:21
they're busy and I call and they don't get back to me, I'm like, I I still feel
48:26
kind of, you know, solo here.
48:28
But the the beauty of the group is yeah, usually somebody will have some capacity
48:33
to make some kind of contact and get back into connection, which doesn't always
48:38
happen in those solo things.
48:40
So it's just another one of the really I think great benefits to having
48:45
Jason Lange: This kind of cohort of brothers around you.
48:49
Jason Gentile: Yeah.
48:49
Yeah.
48:49
And maybe one more piece on just to bring the shame into it too, because it's and
48:53
it's a flavor, just to give men an example of this.
48:55
So that'll happen.
48:56
Maybe you have a really good friend, but you haven't spoken in six months, and both
49:00
of you feel a little bad that you haven't actually called the other one.
49:04
But then because
49:05
Jason Lange: Mm-hmm.
49:06
Jason Gentile: you feel a little bad, you s you don't reach out and call, and then he does the
49:10
same.
49:11
And then another six months goes by, you know, whatever.
49:14
So so it's like you get in these loops.
49:16
and
49:17
Jason Gentile: Again, that's that's a fl a flavor of shame.
49:19
I feel bad that I haven't called this guy or that he hasn't called me.
49:24
So just to kinda play with, maybe that is showing up somewhere for for you.
49:29
Jason Lange: Hmm.
49:29
Okay, well, I'm super curious.
49:31
you've got this retreat coming up, and you do it once or twice a year.
49:36
And I'm a big fan of men offline in nature doing men's work with each other.
49:42
I think it changes men's lives maybe faster than anything else.
49:47
And so tell us a little bit about the mountain, this Remarkable Men's Practice
49:53
retreat you've got coming up, you know.
49:56
Jason Lange: D what's the experience like?
49:57
What can guys expect?
49:59
And obviously I'll drop links and all that in the show notes.
50:02
But yeah, wha what is it you'll be doing with guys?
50:06
Jason Gentile: Yeah, yeah.
50:07
Thanks thanks for asking about it.
50:10
And for me, this is again how I got into men's work and it was a man I trusted.
50:17
I went in twenty fifteen for the first time and was pretty blown away.
50:24
we've got time in the woods, some time inside, time around a fire, and just
50:31
connecting with real shit.
50:34
Jason Gentile: at the end of the day is is what's going on there.
50:39
And we go on some adventures and eat good food and allow ourselves to be mask off,
50:47
in a way that ends up making some pretty big changes for every man that I've seen
50:55
go through it.
50:56
but what I love about it, and again back to this this piece on
51:03
Jason Gentile: using our voice.
51:03
this event is something that's very much like a word of mouth type of thing.
51:08
Like every man that goes, it's like he knows a man that is gone.
51:11
And so it's it's it's been like that.
51:14
it's not to say that if you don't know a man, if you hear about this and you're
51:18
like, damn, that sounds cool.
51:20
I want to go check it out.
51:21
Absolutely do that.
51:22
but generally the community has been built or organically, you know, over the last
51:27
years.
51:27
we've had almost a thousand men go through the program, which is which is pretty
51:32
cool.
51:32
And
51:33
Jason Gentile: It's very special.
51:34
So you'll you'll typically come back with some big change that you're gonna then
51:40
implement in your life.
51:42
Jason Lange: Mm, I love that.
51:43
Yeah.
51:43
so it's not just a a weekend that doesn't come back with you.
51:47
That's always the most important thing, I think, right?
51:51
We have these big transformative experiences.
51:54
And then how do I actually integrate that into my life?
51:58
So I love that that's a a a focus there.
52:01
And yeah, when when's the next one coming up?
52:04
And then about just name again kind of when do they tend to run even past this one?
52:10
Jason Gentile: Yeah,
52:11
Jason Gentile: so right.
52:11
Logistics, right?
52:12
So it's the twenty-third, twenty-fourth, twenty-fifth of October.
52:17
So coming up real soon.
52:19
But then we've got another one in the spring.
52:22
So typically we do one in the fall, one in the spring, and that's in Santa Barbara,
52:28
California.
52:29
So really gorgeous.
52:30
The land is up there in the mountains and get a lot of stars at night, get a lot of
52:37
Jason Gentile: really just gorgeous scenery during the day.
52:40
We've been up there in the rain.
52:42
We've been up there in the, the beautiful sun.
52:45
The whole place burned down at some point.
52:48
and so we've seen it kind of like come back.
52:51
So it's like a very the land itself is very special.
52:54
and we so we go up there again annually and it's just it's become a really powerful
53:00
space.
53:01
Jason Lange: Awesome.
53:01
Well, super excited to have you leading men out there.
53:05
You know, I definitely recommend working with Jason in this organization if you can.
53:10
You can read about men's work, you can listen about men's work as much as you want,
53:16
but the only way I've really seen change is when guys get, so to speak, in the room
53:21
together, even if that's out in the woods, because that's where the feedback, the
53:26
presence, all the things we're talking about actually happen.
53:31
Jason Lange: And so I'll drop links to that in the show notes.
53:33
But beyond that, if people want to keep up with you, man, what's the best way for
53:38
them to get to know you more and follow you?
53:41
Jason Gentile: Yeah, definitely.
53:42
the best way is probably Instagram at this point.
53:45
So it's and we'll just drop my tag in here, but it's just Jason Gentile with one of
53:51
those like underscore pieces.
53:54
But I've also got a website, artofwakingup.com.
53:57
so yeah, I'm out there on the internet if you want to find me.
54:02
Jason Lange: Awesome.
54:02
Cool.
54:02
Yeah, I'll drop it in there and we'll we'll we'll we'll get it out there.
54:07
Well, thanks so much, man, for being here with me today.
54:10
Really fun talking to you and so cool to yeah, feel how aligned we are in the space
54:15
and I I know there's gonna be more collaboration in the future.
54:19
Jason Gentile: Sounds good, brother.
54:21
Jason Lange: All right, until next time everybody.