Latest / The Soap Box Podcast / Why sex ed isn’t just for teens, with Tristin Agtarap

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Why sex ed isn’t just for teens, with Tristin Agtarap · The Soap Box Podcast

1:17
Peta: Take my dult tones off of speaker and pop in your earbuds because today we are talking about sex.
1:26
Peta: Today's episode is a deep dive into what it really means to talk about sex, health, and education in ways that actually land.
1:36
Peta: And a lot of it is gonna surprise you.
1:39
Peta: my guest is Tris, a psychologist and a researcher in human behavior and sexuality, and an all round brilliant human.
1:50
Peta: She's working in sexual and reproductive health, at Brook, one of the UK's leading sexual health charities.
1:56
Peta: But her work goes far beyond the school's sex ed that you or I might have experienced.
2:03
Peta: We chat about why sex education is never one size fits all.
2:08
Peta: What cross-cultural psychology can teach us about stigma, how censorship and platform policies are making vital health messaging harder to share, and why sex ed should be something that we revisit across our whole lives, not just in year nine PSHE, or you know, whatever the American equivalent is.
2:28
Peta: It's a conversation that's sentence around nuance, human behavior and the real challenges of helping people make informed decisions.
2:37
Peta: In a world full of shame, silence, and misinformation.
2:40
Peta: So if you're a parent or an educator, a health professional, or just a curious person who likes unpacking interesting topics, then this one's for you.
2:53
Peta: Dig in through your earbuds and listen to Tri Get on her soapbox.
3:01
Peta: It is really nice to have you on.
3:05
Tristin: Thank you so much for having me.
3:07
Tristin: I'm really excited to be here.
3:09
Peta: So TRS and I met, um, at an lc get together in London in like real, in real life networking, which is quite exciting.
3:17
Peta: Um, so for people who don't know you, can you give them a bit of a rundown on who you are, uh, what you do, and kind of how you got here?
3:24
Tristin: Yeah, absolutely.
3:26
Tristin: I will do my best to wrap that up.
3:28
Tristin: Um, so I am tris.
3:30
Tristin: I am a psychologist that blends the individual differences in personality world of human behavior with sexual health, reproductive health, sex education.
3:44
Tristin: Menstrual health, all things human sexuality.
3:48
Tristin: Um, I wrap it up and I bring, that should not be an innuendo, but it, it, you know, kind of sounds like it's, um, but I bring all these things together and I evaluate on both a like cultural society level, but also the individual level, how these different facets of life impact us, um, through.
4:11
Tristin: Political lenses through just general relationships through our healthcare relationships.
4:18
Tristin: Um, and I get to share them with the world and different audiences.
4:24
Tristin: So I've written for like academic journals.
4:27
Tristin: I've written more for like encyclopedia style writing.
4:31
Tristin: Um, that's my like bread and butter.
4:34
Tristin: But now I am also working, as a data analyst and researcher at Brook.
4:40
Tristin: So we are a charity, um, sexual health, reproductive health and sex education and wellbeing charity throughout England and Wales.
4:50
Tristin: So I get my hands on all different types of data and research, uh, throughout Brook, which has been so much fun.
4:59
Tristin: I've been with them for the past year and a lot of my.
5:02
Tristin: PhD work, I've been able to kind of interweb with my, with my brook life.
5:08
Tristin: So it's been really fun and I'm gonna talk a little bit more about that when we get into the chunk of the podcast today.
5:16
Peta: I mean, that all sounds fascinating.
5:17
Peta: When you and I met in real life, I was like, I could geek out with you all day about this.
5:24
Peta: All the interesting things, so that was very cool.
5:28
Tristin: It's, it's a, it's a unique.
5:30
Tristin: Realm, and it's a very taboo and stigmatized area.
5:35
Tristin: Um, particularly right now, I'm from the us.
5:40
Tristin: I know my accent kind of shifts and morphs into various different accents, but I'm from Montana in the US and as we know, it's been a, it's been difficult to watch and.
5:54
Tristin: In the uk we have some issues here as well.
5:56
Tristin: Absolutely.
5:57
Tristin: Um, so it's a very stigmatized area, very politically.
6:02
Tristin: Dividing topic.
6:04
Tristin: Um, I never quite know what response I'm gonna get to folks when I tell them what I do or who I work for or my PhD was in.
6:14
Tristin: It's always a really telling, you know, um, bit of conversation.
6:20
Tristin: As soon as I get into the moment you say sex, it's like, oh, we don't talk about those things.
6:26
Tristin: We don't talk about that.
6:28
Tristin: Sex is more than just sex.
6:30
Tristin: It's human relationships.
6:32
Tristin: It's it's friendship, you know, it's platonic love.
6:36
Tristin: It's so much more.
6:38
Peta: Yeah.
6:39
Peta: That's very cool.
6:40
Peta: Which brings me to, so when people come on this podcast, uh, because of the name, um, we ask them what their soapbox is.
6:47
Peta: So what is the thing that you cannot stop talking about?
6:51
Peta: Um, that you end up talking people's ear off at parties in the kitchen with a glass of wine or your drink of choice?
6:58
Peta: Um, like what is your Yeah.
7:00
Peta: Your soapbox that you jump up on.
7:02
Tristin: Yeah, all of that.
7:04
Tristin: All, all of all of, I would say sex education in particular.
7:10
Tristin: Um, I think we can all reflect on our experiences or lack thereof of sex education.
7:18
Tristin: Um.
7:19
Tristin: Regardless of any age that you are, you know, if you are 60, 30, or even 12, right?
7:28
Tristin: Like we can all reflect on these experiences of sex education in school, and I'm yet to find someone who said that they had an amazing sex education experience and that they left school or their sex education lesson, feeling like they could navigate the world in a.
7:48
Tristin: Better way.
7:49
Tristin: Um, so something that kind has fueled my soapbox, I might say, is after I did my, um, bachelor's degree, um, back in Montana, I moved to Cambodia where I lived there for two years and I taught sex education to high school students and I went into it quite naively.
8:12
Tristin: Uh, I.
8:14
Tristin: And maybe the listeners or yourself can resonate with this, but I, I grew up in a very white context, Montana, I think I had maybe three people of color in my high school that I can remember.
8:28
Tristin: Very white context and, um.
8:31
Tristin: When I got into college, university, we've really learned a lot about these cultures.
8:38
Tristin: We had individualistic and collectivistic cultures.
8:41
Tristin: You had Eastern culture and you had Western culture, and there was this vast, you know, this vast difference.
8:48
Tristin: So when I was moving to Cambodia, I was going into it being like, okay, this isn't.
8:54
Tristin: Eastern culture, these are the things I need to be aware of.
8:57
Tristin: This is how they treat their elders.
8:58
Tristin: You know, like really trying to prepare myself through this like research background.
9:05
Tristin: And boy, when I got into it, I was like, okay, these are 14, 15-year-old kids that have access to the internet.
9:13
Tristin: They want to know what's going on with their body.
9:15
Tristin: So all of that just went out the window and it just.
9:18
Tristin: Became like human to human.
9:21
Tristin: How can I help guide you through whatever questions that you have today?
9:25
Tristin: Um, and that has really fueled my soapbox and has encouraged me to kind of continue down this path of how can we create, you know, more equitable outcomes.
9:43
Tristin: To sexual health, to sexual and reproductive, um, information for boys, girls, non-binary.
9:51
Tristin: Um, how can we bring this to life and to light a bit better than just kind of being like one size fits all approach.
10:01
Peta: Yeah, that's really interesting.
10:02
Peta: 'cause normally when people talk about sex education, well mines experience anyway, it's more about the delivering of the information.
10:10
Peta: Like what information should we be giving?
10:12
Peta: Them.
10:13
Peta: When is it like appropriate?
10:15
Peta: I'm doing my little bunny ears that nobody can see on the podcast right now.
10:18
Peta: When is it appropriate to give them that piece of information?
10:21
Peta: Um, should we ever be giving them that piece of information?
10:24
Peta: Where are they getting their information from, et cetera, et cetera.
10:27
Peta: But you talk about it more in terms of, um, shaping the information that's delivered based on what outcomes you kind of want to want to see in, in people's relationships.
10:40
Peta: Um.
10:41
Peta: Whether they are, yeah, kind of their sexual relationships or their human relationships.
10:46
Tristin: Yeah, I mean, AB.
10:48
Tristin: I guess I should preface with two lines to that.
10:51
Tristin: Absolutely.
10:51
Tristin: Like we do have age-based, culturally appropriate, um, guidelines, definitely in the uk.
11:01
Tristin: Um, in the US it's way more of a mixed bag.
11:04
Tristin: And to the audience, I can, I can only speak so much to, you know, the UK and to the us apart from other cultures.
11:12
Tristin: Um.
11:13
Tristin: But the uk there was some drama this last year with the new RSE guidance that was put out, direct guidance that was put out.
11:23
Tristin: Um, and that was very much broken down by, um, age-based education lessons in the us It's a complete mixed bag'cause it's up to a state by state legislation, which.
11:38
Tristin: Typically means it's actually left to the like actual school district, um, that kind of bring to life these policies.
11:46
Tristin: And again, there are some, um.
11:49
Tristin: Age based and more in depth levels of when this curriculum is launched.
11:54
Tristin: Um, so I should preface with that.
11:57
Tristin: My research has been.
11:59
Tristin: More on like 18 and olders with that because it can be quite tricky to get into those schools.
12:06
Tristin: Ethics procedure gets a bit more intense.
12:09
Tristin: Um, but it's something I'm working a bit more on with Brooke, so I can definitely talk about that now that I'm kind of in the, uh, in the charity world and working with a organization who is employing sex education throughout England and Wales.
12:24
Tristin: But my research was looking at, hey, okay.
12:28
Tristin: Let's look at how people communicate about, um, using a condom.
12:34
Tristin: So how, how comfortable does somebody feel to ask their partner, Hey, can we pause?
12:42
Tristin: Can we get a condom?
12:43
Tristin: Hey, I'm actually not in the mood anymore.
12:45
Tristin: Like, let, let's stop.
12:47
Tristin: Or, um, I don't have a condom.
12:49
Tristin: Do you have a condom?
12:51
Tristin: And then I.
12:52
Tristin: I also wanted to look at, um, STI related stigma and shame.
12:57
Tristin: So, um, how do folks feel stigmatized when ordering a STI kit online, um, or going to their local sexual health clinic for a test?
13:11
Tristin: Um, and how does shame factor into that?
13:14
Tristin: Um, as well as.
13:16
Tristin: Uh, sex guilt.
13:17
Tristin: So how guilty do we feel about different fantasies?
13:21
Tristin: So it was more so of like a really broad lens, um, of different factors within sexual health and sex education.
13:30
Tristin: Um, and I can, I can kind of bring us in if we're ready to wrap into kind of the.
13:37
Tristin: Uh, these individual factors on how everybody has a different level of engagement and a level of receptiveness.
13:46
Tristin: And that was really my baby the past three or four years, um, throughout the PhD.
13:53
Tristin: But for, for context, basically I really wanted to evaluate how does our culture and our upbringing impact the information that we take from sex education?
14:06
Tristin: So.
14:08
Tristin: All of these different factors come into our lives, right?
14:10
Tristin: We have religion, we have rule breaking.
14:14
Tristin: We have.
14:15
Tristin: Um, we have growing up with family members who are not your cis heterosexual, traditional gender norms, right?
14:25
Tristin: So if you grow up in a household that embraces or exposes you.
14:31
Tristin: To other ways of life.
14:32
Tristin: You're going to also take that into your education.
14:35
Tristin: You're going to draw out and get more from some of your sex education lessons, um, or just human sexuality lessons as a whole.
14:45
Tristin: So what we see if we evaluate the spectrum.
14:49
Tristin: Um, Michelle Gelfin, she's a researcher in the us.
14:53
Tristin: Absolutely amazing, um, work that she's employed and her team has employed.
14:58
Tristin: They basically evaluate this variable of mindset.
15:02
Tristin: Um, and anytime you want me to repeat anything, please do let me know because I do get on these tangents.
15:09
Tristin: I do just get on these full tangents of, of how to, um.
15:14
Tristin: How I dig into these, like in different variables.
15:17
Tristin: Um, so yes, we have this amazing researcher, Michelle Gfin, definitely check out some of her work.
15:23
Tristin: Um, she evaluates this variable of mindset, typically at a societal or cultural level.
15:30
Tristin: And if we.
15:32
Tristin: Imagine a spectrum, um, or a continuum.
15:35
Tristin: At one end we have it, which is called a tight mindset.
15:39
Tristin: So it's a very, um, a bit more rigid with your social norms.
15:43
Tristin: You don't deviate from social norms.
15:45
Tristin: Um, laws, regulations are definitely meant to be there to put rule and order, um, in place, and your citizens and the folks residing in whatever area this is.
15:58
Tristin: Truly, um, truly follow and ensure that they do not push those boundaries.
16:07
Tristin: Um, whereas at the end, at the other end of the spectrum, you have.
16:11
Tristin: Looser mindsets, which, um, allow for a bit more deviation from societal norms, allow for a bit more of like gray area.
16:21
Tristin: Um, we also see a bit more like entrepreneurship in, in these cultures.
16:26
Tristin: Um, breaking barriers, breaking different norms, and of course.
16:30
Tristin: All cultures lay on the spectrum, but also every individual falls somewhere in the spectrum.
16:36
Tristin: So I wanted to take this framework and see how does it apply on an individual level, but when we apply it in really stigmatized and taboo areas.
16:49
Tristin: Um, so I was like, this actually could be a good framework to bring into education lessons to see.
16:57
Tristin: Do folks that have a tighter or a looser mindset also have different outcomes or different levels of receptiveness, um, when they engage with sexual health work?
17:10
Tristin: So this was the, the main baby of my, of my PhD.
17:15
Tristin: I have a few babies of the PhD, but this was a, a big one.
17:19
Tristin: Um, and what we found, um, was, was really cool and basically.
17:25
Tristin: Either side of the continuum has its pros and cons.
17:29
Tristin: So we saw folks, let's say they, um, had a really tight mindset.
17:36
Tristin: They.
17:37
Tristin: Were really, really good with communicating their boundaries about condom use.
17:43
Tristin: So they were great to say, Hey, hold up.
17:47
Tristin: I don't have a condom, I don't have dental dam.
17:50
Tristin: Let's take a pause.
17:51
Tristin: I'm not really feeling it like that communication was there, but their sex guilt was so high.
17:59
Tristin: The, um, the STI related stigma and shame so high.
18:04
Tristin: And then we saw the, the contrary.
18:07
Tristin: So for loose mindsets, folks, um, had really low STI related stigma and shame.
18:14
Tristin: They had really low, um, levels of sex guilt.
18:18
Tristin: Um, and with that they had really, um, low ability, um, or really lacked the ability to.
18:30
Tristin: Communicate about their condom use.
18:33
Tristin: Um, so it was really interesting to tie those apart because I went into it being like, hypothesizing, you know, these looser mindsets are going to outperform, you know, and that's, that's not true in the slightest.
18:48
Tristin: Um, so it, it really made myself and my research team think more about how do we take like a person centered approach to.
18:59
Tristin: Sexual health and sex and relationships.
19:01
Tristin: And a variable I failed to mention there also was, um, sexual self-efficacy.
19:07
Tristin: So our, our confidence as well in relation to just communicating about, um, our experiences in sexual, um.
19:17
Tristin: Relationships.
19:18
Tristin: So it was, it was really fascinating.
19:20
Tristin: And we currently have a paper under review that's taken this back to the society level, but maps every state, um, all 50 states in the us and.
19:34
Tristin: Uh, again, Michelle Gelfin has, um, data that gives a mindset score to every state in the us.
19:45
Tristin: Um, and we mapped the scores, so from lower scores, which were looser scores and higher scores, which were tighter.
19:54
Tristin: Um.
19:55
Tristin: We've mapped it with the abortion policies and the sex education policies across the us Um, and it's a full correlation from, um, states who have looser uh, mindsets have.
20:11
Tristin: Greater access to sex education.
20:15
Tristin: Um, they have more protections and access to abortion and health related care.
20:21
Tristin: Um, and the, the contrary exists for their tighter mindsets.
20:25
Tristin: So the original hypothesis, I think we can see embedded a bit more on that societal or cultural level.
20:33
Tristin: Um, but when we drill down to the individual, there's a lot more nuance and a lot more.
20:39
Tristin: That we can, we can bring to life.
20:42
Tristin: Um, so these are all things that are a part of my soapbox that I always want to share and just chat for days about.
20:53
Peta: That it is absolutely fascinating and I, I would've had the same hypothesis.
20:57
Peta: I would've assumed that people with title mindsets would've struggled to communicate boundaries.
21:03
Peta: Purely coming from that kind of sex guilt and self-efficacy kind of idea, like that they wouldn't want to talk about it or that they wouldn't have the language.
21:12
Peta: So yeah, it just cha, it challenges a lot of assumptions on the personal level and has implications for how we.
21:23
Peta: How we move away from that one size fits all sex education approach and also what implications that has on a, on a kind of a state scale and then, and then a country scale.
21:35
Tristin: Yeah, exactly.
21:36
Tristin: And that's what, you know, I'm, I'm trying to get into more now, is how, uh, because after kind of exiting the academic sphere, being in it, and now working in the charity nonprofit sector, how do we bridge these worlds?
21:52
Tristin: How do we bring there's, there's a big disconnect and I think any person.
21:58
Tristin: Can also speak to this.
21:59
Tristin: There's a big disconnect on what goes in or what goes on in those university labs.
22:05
Tristin: What goes on in academic research versus what's happening on the ground, um, what's happening within, um, within the actual sector that's applying the work.
22:15
Tristin: If that is sex educators, if that's clinical psychologists, sex therapists, sociologists, you know, um, how do we begin to connect to these worlds?
22:27
Tristin: Um.
22:28
Tristin: And that's something I, I love bringing to life in Brook.
22:32
Tristin: 'cause we have, um, we have these different sex education programs and we try our best to tailor them to folks who, who visit.
22:46
Tristin: Um, but how can we actually back what we choose for each person, you know, for doing it.
22:52
Tristin: Three or four course program, how can we ensure that we're tailoring it in the best way possible to the, to the human right?
23:00
Tristin: How is it human centered, um, to ensure that we're giving them, I guess, more equity in their experience than, than equality, right?
23:10
Tristin: Because if it was equality, everybody would just get the same thing.
23:14
Tristin: But how can we bring equity into that to make sure that actually what I give you is going to speak to you where you are and.
23:22
Tristin: You know, speak to whatever it is that maybe we're lacking a little bit of, you know, um, so that is, that's staying on the money and like where, where, where can we bring this to life a little bit more?
23:36
Tristin: 'cause it, it's incredibly important.
23:39
Tristin: Um, and I think if you know as well, like if you are educator.
23:46
Tristin: Hannah spoke to you and explained to you, let's say, at the start of a class, to bring in a bit of these individual differences in psychology and say, Hey, actually we're gonna tailor a list to you.
23:57
Tristin: So if you can do this six items scale, um, when the time, if the time allows, you know, if you're in a privileged situation to be able to give that, um, how cool would that be?
24:09
Tristin: You know, how cool would that be to be able to see those differences?
24:14
Peta: Yeah.
24:15
Peta: And what do you like from the, from the research that you did and the work that you did with Brooke?
24:19
Peta: What, um, what kind of implications have you seen?
24:23
Peta: Um.
24:24
Peta: That human centered approach having in terms of kind of real relationships and um, and how people feel about all these different parts of sex education and, and communication.
24:38
Tristin: Yeah, it's a, it's a tricky one.
24:40
Tristin: I think it's something.
24:42
Tristin: We struggle a lot with, just in this field.
24:44
Tristin: 'cause the folks who sign up to like take part in our, in our research or even if we're doing this work in schools, it's quite biased on the folks who actually give us back that data.
24:59
Tristin: Um,'cause it's usually people who are already really interested in the work and wanna, you know, really wanna see it, um, develop and.
25:09
Tristin: Really wanna see it supported.
25:12
Tristin: Um, or you might also get the folks who are like, really don't like it.
25:17
Tristin: So then you get the other side of the bias.
25:19
Tristin: Um, but as a whole, and I, sorry, I'm on a tangent again, but as a whole, we see really positive experiences.
25:28
Tristin: Like if you know you're going into something that's human, human-centered, designed.
25:34
Tristin: It's going to give you that extra bit of security around.
25:39
Tristin: Okay.
25:39
Tristin: I know this actually the practitioner or the health educator who has employed this has taken a moment.
25:45
Tristin: To prep rather than say, I mean, I think we've all had an experience potentially with therapists that you're like, yeah, you definitely just gave me a, a worksheet that you give to all your clients.
25:56
Tristin: Like it, like, I've definitely bid after a therapy session.
25:59
Tristin: Like, yeah, you gave everybody this this week, didn't it?
26:03
Tristin: You like, this isn't unique to what I'm going through.
26:07
Tristin: Um, so when we have a, when we have a extra bit, I think of precautionary, um, I.
26:15
Tristin: We can, we can appreciate it a bit more.
26:19
Tristin: Um, I, and I guess probably not even ironically, but ironically I just did, um, in, for Brooke, we do period dignity work throughout Wales and I just put together this evaluation, um, of all of our period dignity work that we do.
26:38
Tristin: And it was like our, in our primary schools and our secondary schools, but also.
26:43
Tristin: Our professional trainings that we do and who had the highest outcomes, um, of improvements was our professionals was were the adults who were like, shoot.
26:55
Tristin: I definitely didn't, you know, I didn't care.
26:57
Tristin: I didn't pay attention when I was a kid.
26:59
Tristin: And now actually am experiencing these huge shifts in my confidence and knowledge, um, about menstruation.
27:09
Tristin: And this is adults who.
27:11
Tristin: Menstruated probably for many years.
27:13
Tristin: Um, so that was a long roundabout way to say.
27:16
Tristin: I think for the most part though, our data can be quite biased in either direction.
27:23
Tristin: It's usually overwhelmingly positive.
27:26
Peta: It's really interesting that, um, we're almost having to come at this problem.
27:31
Peta: From two different directions.
27:33
Peta: So we're working kind of from a primary school level, from a secondary school level with children who are learning about this for the first time and, and, and kind of getting the language that goes with it so that they can communicate.
27:47
Peta: But because, because there's been such a long kind of history of.
27:52
Peta: Us not doing it particularly effectively or us having it all being very blanket and one size fits all.
28:00
Peta: We're having to pick up all the people at the other end too, who, like you said, have been like, for example, might have been menstruating for 20, 30 years, like might have been dealing with sexual relationships or with their own feelings around sex and, and their body for decades.
28:20
Peta: But still, like they've not been given that language.
28:22
Peta: They've not been given that, that confidence and, and that information.
28:28
Tristin: Yeah.
28:28
Tristin: Yeah, exactly.
28:29
Tristin: And you've just reminded me, I was having a conversation at a networking event a few years ago, and this, this gal, um, was telling this story and we shouldn't giggle.
28:41
Tristin: We shouldn't laugh because of it, but.
28:43
Tristin: It.
28:44
Tristin: She told this story about her, one of her best friends, um, going through menopause, also going through a divorce or just, just on the other side of menopause, just going, going through divorce.
28:56
Tristin: And she's like, oh, she's so great.
28:59
Tristin: I don't have to use condoms.
29:00
Tristin: I don't have to be on birth control anymore'cause of menopause.
29:02
Tristin: And we're like, she's like, no, no, you, you do need to use condoms.
29:05
Tristin: You need to protect yourself from STIs.
29:07
Tristin: And like, you know, just this whole like.
29:10
Tristin: Whole blanket of being like contraceptives aren't just for pregnancy.
29:15
Tristin: They're going to protect you from STIs as well.
29:18
Tristin: And so somebody you know who's later in life and who has had education and just this like moment of being like, oh shit.
29:28
Peta: Yeah.
29:28
Tristin: Yeah, I guess I do need to use condoms.
29:32
Peta: Yeah.
29:32
Peta: Was it like, I, I dunno whether it, it's still the case, but I remember reading a couple of years ago that the highest increase in chlamydia cases was, was in like the seven, the 65, 70 plus age range.
29:46
Tristin: Yes.
29:46
Peta: And probably because of that exact reason, like that lack of information, like they wouldn't have got sex education at school.
29:52
Peta: So, and, and if you don't, if you're not seeking that stuff out.
29:58
Peta: Intentionally then it's not.
30:00
Peta: Yeah, nobody's coming to teach.
30:02
Peta: I mean, maybe some charities are now, but nobody was coming to teach 65, 70 year olds about STIs.
30:08
Tristin: Yeah, exactly.
30:09
Tristin: And if, and if we think there was no, not even probably a, a sentence spoken of sexual health or anything when they were in there.
30:19
Peta: Mm-hmm.
30:20
Tristin: um, and yeah, you're exactly right.
30:22
Tristin: Funnily enough for Brooke, I do, uh, these clinical op reports for sexual health services and.
30:32
Tristin: You can see spikes in testing for, um, for, I believe it was, yeah, chlamydia at like 78 years old.
30:42
Tristin: It spikes.
30:43
Tristin: And, um, around 18, so going into university freshers year, um, uh, chlamydia spikes.
30:51
Tristin: Yeah.
30:52
Tristin: Yeah.
30:52
Tristin: So, so, so interesting to see it at either end of these spectrums.
30:58
Tristin: But this is the other thing that.
31:01
Tristin: We speak about all the time, um, is sex education shouldn't be a one stop shop when you're 14 and in high school it should be a conversation that evolves with you through time.
31:18
Tristin: And women and girls definitely get more exposure to these conversations.
31:25
Tristin: Um, but that's because a lot of the time.
31:29
Tristin: Sexual and reproductive healthcare is always created to be a woman's issue or a girl's issue when it's a shared responsibility with men, um, men and boys, uh, who, who should and typically want to know more, but don't get opportunities, um, to engage with these conversations as much.
31:50
Tristin: And I, I was just actually in a webinar yesterday and it was talking about how.
31:56
Tristin: Sexual health and reproductive health is so convoluted with women's health.
32:00
Tristin: Um, and that it's also reinforced though at a practitioner level where practitioners don't always ask men and boys about their condom use, about their contraceptive use.
32:12
Tristin: Um, and I, I believe, don't quote me on this, but I believe, um, it's not typically until after, um.
32:23
Tristin: After childbearing years for men, but then they are asked about like, vasectomies, and that's like the first time that they're really, you know, addressed in a clinician, like in a clinic experience about their sexual and reproductive healthcare.
32:39
Tristin: And it, it, that should not be the norm.
32:42
Peta: No.
32:43
Tristin: Um, you know, that should not be the norm.
32:44
Tristin: And again, it reinforces that burden on women and girls, um, to carry that and to.
32:52
Tristin: Falsely believe that it's, you know, their responsibility to not get pregnant.
32:57
Tristin: Um, there needs to be way more involvement bringing men into this conversation and sharing it with us, um, because they, they are, you know, it takes two to
33:10
Peta: Yeah.
33:10
Peta: Yeah.
33:13
Peta: Yeah.
33:14
Peta: And I think from a health perspective, a wider kind of sexual health perspective as well, not just kind of reproduction can cause problems with men.
33:22
Peta: So I went to another in real life networking thing.
33:25
Peta: They're all over the place.
33:26
Peta: Um, and we had a, um.
33:30
Peta: We had had a pelvic, um, physiotherapist, uh, come into a talk and she said, and she like, so she talked about all the, the kind of like the usual things about incontinence and, and, dryness and menopause and all this kind of stuff for the women that are in the room.
33:47
Peta: But she spent a large portion of the talk.
33:49
Peta: Um, kind of talking about her patients confidentiality, obviously who were men and how nobody talks about men's pelvic floors and how it can cause massive problems, um, especially later in life.
34:01
Peta: But because it's not, so we are getting fed this, this, this information.
34:06
Peta: I mean, not in any way perfectly and not enough, um, through magazines and through female celebrities and all that kind of thing, men aren't getting any of it.
34:16
Peta: So it's not until they have a problem.
34:19
Peta: Go in and see a doctor and maybe get fed to the right person, that they realize that actually that it has something to do with like their, with their reproductive organs.
34:29
Tristin: Yeah.
34:30
Tristin: No, it's dreadful.
34:33
Tristin: It's, it's, it's so frustrating.
34:36
Tristin: Um, and I know, like I am mean, I'm a very early career researcher, right?
34:41
Tristin: Like I've, I'm only I.
34:43
Tristin: A year post PhD.
34:45
Tristin: Um, and so I am still very much like in my beginning and early years with this, but I already see it in my data.
34:53
Tristin: Um, I did a paper, my first publication was a paper on the mental health benefits of sex education, and in there it talks about.
35:06
Tristin: Women explaining their frustrations with sex education because they're constantly feeling like the burden is, is on them.
35:15
Tristin: Um, and I'm actually writing a paper now with Brooke on menstruation and wellbeing, and again, it goes into women wanting boys to be educated, um, on.
35:29
Tristin: Population on the cycles of menstruation and how it impacts, um, women and girls and other folks who menstruate.
35:37
Tristin: Um, but yeah, that's just one, one sector of it.
35:41
Tristin: Um, but it, it does broaden out to all these other realms of our life.
35:44
Tristin: And also, I mean, I think every woman who's dated a boy or a man before also will experience.
35:54
Tristin: Kind of that like loneliness epidemic that they'll experience because being, you know, being intimate in a, like, platonic sense with their friends or having those conversations with their friends.
36:06
Tristin: Doesn't always happen as naturally as, as women bring it up to be.
36:11
Tristin: And so they feel again, oh, why am I holding, why do I, why am I holding my emotional baggage?
36:17
Tristin: But why am I also holding your emotional baggage?
36:19
Tristin: And it, it creates this, you know, deeper systemic situation.
36:24
Tristin: Um, and I think it is.
36:28
Tristin: A thing that's now starting to be discussed and addressed a little bit more, but we have a long way to go.
36:36
Tristin: Absolutely.
36:37
Tristin: Um
36:38
Peta: the, like the educator role that, that puts you in as a, as a female partner, like that you've, because you've grown up with that information or because the information has always been pointed to you and because.
36:52
Peta: In order to, like, if you're gonna have kind of a healthy relationship and everybody knows what's going on, and then there is that impetus on you to go, well, no, this is how my body works, or, no, this is why I'm feeling this way, or this is why I'm doing this, or this is why that is happening.
37:06
Tristin: Yeah.
37:07
Peta: And that educator role is not always the role that you want to play in those situations.
37:12
Tristin: Exactly, and it, it shouldn't be put on us.
37:16
Tristin: You know, I.
37:18
Tristin: I have an amazing, amazing partner who does their best to educate themselves on women's health issues and to get into conversations and to, you know, be a male ally.
37:33
Tristin: And it's amazing to have a partner who is like that, but.
37:37
Tristin: N that is, that is not the norm.
37:41
Tristin: That is not an experience of many, of many women.
37:45
Tristin: And it is f frustrating.
37:47
Tristin: It is so frustrating.
37:49
Tristin: And it's, you know, I see this as well, like as myself as a, you know, a white, cis heterosexual woman.
37:58
Tristin: I, um, do a lot of, um, volunteering with abortion rights where we do.
38:04
Tristin: We called the Reproductive Rights Activist Collective.
38:08
Tristin: It's a mouthful.
38:08
Tristin: We go by the rack.
38:10
Tristin: Um, yeah, so we go by the rack as well.
38:13
Tristin: Um, but our two frameworks are reproductive justice and, uh, community organizing.
38:19
Tristin: So.
38:20
Tristin: The same, that it is not the responsibility of women of color to educate white women on systemic issues of reproductive justice.
38:29
Tristin: It's our responsibility to read and to have conversations with and to educate ourselves.
38:36
Tristin: You know, that that pattern needs to.
38:41
Tristin: Continue to take shape, you know, for men learning about women's issues, for white women, learning about issues for reproductive justice, you know, in these different frameworks.
38:51
Tristin: Um, it's incredibly important to check your privilege to, to check how you've grown up and to how that's going to influence and bias your lives, um, your life and how you view, view the world, you know?
39:08
Peta: Yeah, no, that's so true.
39:10
Peta: I wanna talk a little bit about messaging,'cause that's what I do in my day job.
39:16
Peta: Um, but so, um, being part of the communities that we're part of, um, a lot of the conversation often stems around things like shadow bunning, or.
39:30
Peta: Kind of, or censorship or kind of access to different platforms and different spaces.
39:38
Peta: So it strikes me that a lot of our conversation today has been about that communication and access to information and being able, and the benefits of being able to, to talk about this kind of stuff.
39:53
Peta: So from your perspective, I mean partly as a researcher, but also was working for Brooke, who is trying to kind of, to get that word out and to, and to do more work around the country, how do those things affect, um, the way that you can talk about your work, like the messaging that you can, that you can put out there?
40:16
Tristin: Yeah, yeah.
40:17
Tristin: No, that's a really good conversation.
40:19
Tristin: Um.
40:21
Tristin: It impacts us a lot.
40:23
Tristin: Um, I, I think in particular when you're trying to reach on social media, at least when you're trying to allow the algorithm to help you reach communities or areas, that's definitely going to be a, a major, um, component of it.
40:43
Tristin: Personally, I've experienced it from the side of like trying to get, um, people to engage in my research.
40:50
Tristin: So if I put out an advertisement on Facebook or X or um, Instagram, um, or like I've used like Reddit forums and stuff in the past.
41:02
Tristin: It gets blocked a lot or taken down and reported, um, like one on menstruation where I had like a, a, a beautiful image of like, um, of the reproduct of a woman's reproductive health.
41:16
Tristin: Um, kind of like silhouette and reported taken down, you know, so how, how can we.
41:25
Tristin: Get folks to engage with our work.
41:27
Tristin: And I mean, this is one issue and then obviously it's exacerbated now in the US with like funding being cut.
41:33
Tristin: That's a whole other situation.
41:34
Tristin: But how can we get folks to engage in our work that aren't already in like this, this I guess, fear of influence where they're going to hear about our work through word of mouth or through, you know, maybe a friend's LinkedIn post or something.
41:49
Tristin: So how do we reach these communities to ensure that.
41:52
Tristin: We have a diverse, a representative, a reliable sample.
41:56
Tristin: Um, that's where I've experienced it a lot and it's difficult.
42:00
Tristin: I don't have an answer for you yet on how I'm successfully navigating it, but it it's definitely something to be spoken about and it's.
42:10
Tristin: So frustrating as well.
42:11
Tristin: When you see we all get those like spam Instagram followers who are like, you, you, you know, it is a very sexual picture and like the words and stuff that I'm like, how is this not being flagged?
42:26
Tristin: But my very, you know, um, like stylistic.
42:32
Tristin: Advertisement that I've put out for research has been flagged within minutes, like within minutes of being put out.
42:39
Tristin: And I've not, I don't have loads of followers.
42:42
Tristin: Like I'm not this, you know, I'm not somebody that's being, you know, watched.
42:47
Tristin: Um, so how do we navigate this landscape that's consistently monitored for in, I guess, in ways though that aren't.
42:57
Tristin: Conducive, you know, that aren't always helpful.
43:00
Tristin: How do we, how do we, so I gave you back a question.
43:03
Tristin: I didn't even answer yours, but how do we, you know,
43:09
Peta: Yeah, I mean, the only, so in conversations that I've had with people around this, the only thing that I've kind of come up with that even go some way to answering it is to have more diversity.
43:20
Peta: The people who are making those decisions.
43:23
Peta: The problem comes that so many of these platforms are privately run.
43:30
Peta: Like they have no, they've got no requirement to have diversity in those.
43:35
Peta: Especially now with the changes in kind of d in DEI and, and that kind of bonfire in the states.
43:41
Peta: So they have no.
43:44
Peta: There's no, um, encouragement to make sure that the people making those decisions and shaping what is and isn't accessible have a range of different opinions and a range of different kind of levels of what they'll accept.
43:57
Peta: Um, I think it's, it's been interesting watching more and more communities in the sexual health and female health sphere build their own.
44:10
Peta: Platforms or build their own little networks.
44:13
Peta: And I think that's great for, like you were saying, people who are already in that sphere and who, or might be on the edges of that sphere who can kind of get pulled into it.
44:24
Peta: But I think from, from what you've said today, uh, nothing necessarily is gonna change on a ground scale unless we pull in.
44:34
Peta: People who are nowhere near those fears, unless we can get that information to people who are
44:39
Tristin: Yeah.
44:40
Peta: thinking about it and not accessing it, um, I don't really know how we do that.
44:47
Tristin: I know it, it's a conversation that I have a lot with my colleagues, but also like my, my collaborators at Brunell, my, my research collaborators there.
44:58
Tristin: It's a huge conversation, um, because we want to ensure that the work that we're doing is.
45:07
Tristin: Is good.
45:08
Tristin: You know, it is good research for every human, you know, like how, how to ensure that this isn't falling into the traps.
45:19
Tristin: So we call it, um, weird samples.
45:23
Tristin: So basically it's, have you heard of this term before?
45:27
Peta: I have, but I don't know if our audience has,
45:29
Tristin: yeah.
45:30
Tristin: So we have what we call weird sample populations.
45:34
Tristin: Um, so the W'S for Westernized, the E is for educated, the I'S for industrialized, the R is for Rich, and the D is for Democratic.
45:45
Tristin: So we really try to do our best to ensure.
45:50
Tristin: Our samples aren't weird.
45:52
Tristin: That's what we call, that's what we call them in, in social psychology.
45:56
Tristin: You don't want them to fall into that landscape.
45:59
Tristin: Um, so, so yeah, it's, it's a big conversation that we have because when they do fall into that, that's where cross-cultural psychology comes into play.
46:11
Tristin: Right?
46:11
Tristin: So you take a study that was done in.
46:15
Tristin: California and you try to replicate that in another area of the world, it's not gonna happen.
46:21
Tristin: You know, and that's why we have this huge replication crisis in our field where we're trying to kind of like fight back to say, no, we're real science.
46:29
Tristin: Like we, we actually do stats, like, like we're trying to bring back that, those, I guess like rigorous conversations to get our reliability back.
46:39
Tristin: Um, because it's a, it's a big.
46:42
Tristin: It's a big issue.
46:44
Tristin: Um, and I think it definitely loops into these conversations of shadow banning and getting things taken down and
46:56
Peta: Um, well, yes, so if our, if our listeners have any ideas about how we can, yeah.
47:01
Peta: How we can firstly ensure that we get like good research on these topics, but also how we can, like is the answer to build platforms and then invite everywhere else.
47:11
Peta: It's the answer to be more in real life and or is the answer to you kind of.
47:16
Peta: Slowly and steadily chip away at those taboos and wait for the next generation to kind of, yeah, to not be as bothered when they see a picture of a female reproductive system on Facebook, who knows
47:31
Tristin: Right.
47:31
Tristin: Yeah.
47:32
Peta: on a postcard.
47:33
Tristin: Right.
47:34
Tristin: Exactly.
47:35
Tristin: And it's definitely, I mean, it's, it's a mixture of we were to like.
47:41
Tristin: Compare for, you know, x amount of years ago when the way to collect data was door knocking to go on panels, right?
47:48
Tristin: So in that review, I guess to say this, in a positive light, we have come a long way.
47:55
Tristin: Um, we have platforms like, um, prolific, which allow you to advertise your studies and it's in all, uh, I mean so many different countries in the world for you to get.
48:08
Tristin: Quick and easy access to, um, to participants and paying them a good, um, paying them like a minimum rate to partake in your work.
48:18
Tristin: But again, to know that that exists, to know that you should sign up for this, um, is a certain demographic that, you know, that do sign up for it.
48:28
Tristin: So.
48:30
Tristin: We have come a long way, but it's how do we bring this even further?
48:35
Tristin: Um, you know, and I know there's amazing foundations like the Gates, you know, bill and Melinda Gates Foundation, who do loads of amazing sexual and reproductive health work, um, throughout low and middle income countries.
48:47
Tristin: Um, so there's, there's definitely that route in that avenue.
48:52
Tristin: Um.
48:53
Tristin: And applying for like funding and grants.
48:55
Tristin: And if you're fortunate, enough to get those, then you have a bit of more like availability to be on the ground and set up, you know, maybe set up a, um, research area, um, if you have like the connections and the money to set that up.
49:12
Tristin: But yeah.
49:14
Peta: Okay.
49:15
Peta: Well for people who do have a brilliant answer to all of these problems that we've been mulling over, um, or even people who don't and wanna get in touch with you, where can they find you?
49:25
Tristin: Yes, so you can definitely find me on LinkedIn.
49:29
Tristin: Um, I'm always down to have nerdy chats.
49:33
Tristin: Um, you can also follow me on Instagram.
49:37
Tristin: Um, you'll see bits of my research on there, but you'll also get to see lots of pictures of my cat.
49:43
Peta: Excellent.
49:44
Tristin: That's always a fun enticive reason on why.
49:47
Tristin: Um, yeah, those are, those are definitely my two areas that I'm really pushing out my work a lot.
49:53
Tristin: So I would love to have more conversations with people, um, and do collaborations or just have chats about other people's soap boxes.
50:05
Peta: Cool.
50:05
Peta: Okay.
50:06
Peta: Well I will put those in the show notes, um, so people can find you.
50:09
Peta: Um, but this has been so interesting, just as interesting as our initial conversation was.
50:14
Peta: So I'm looking forward to having many more of those.
50:16
Peta: Uh, so thank you so much for taking the time to share your soapbox with us.
50:20
Tristin: Of course, thank you for allowing me to talk about all, all my nerdy stuff.
50:26
Peta: We love nerds here.
50:28
Peta: Nerds make the world go round.
50:30
Tristin: It, it's true.
50:33
Tristin: I, I might be biased just a little bit, but
50:37
Peta: it's all good.
50:38
Tristin: I'm always up for it.
50:39
Tristin: I really appreciate it and it's, it's a super quote podcast, so happy to be on it.