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Transcript

What Got You Here Won't Get You There · Not All Business

0:00
Welcome to Not All Business, a podcast by two former CEOs who
0:04
went from competitors to friends.
0:06
I'm Blakely Graham. My Co host is Heather Cooper,
0:08
who is missing today, but she will be joining later.
0:11
And I'm also joined by our trustee producer Clay Cornell.
0:15
Today we're calling an audible. I'm super sick.
0:18
Heather is lost. We can.
0:21
Thanks, Clay. We can hear it.
0:23
It's. I just want to say it out from
0:24
the jump. We can hear it.
0:25
Sorry. Go ahead.
0:26
Yeah. Heather is lost in the interwebs
0:29
and Clay has a broken refrigerator.
0:32
Today we're going to play an episode we recorded over the
0:34
summer. On this episode, we're talking
0:37
about the skills that made you successful and why they may be
0:40
exactly what's holding you back. Now it's all about leveling up.
0:53
Blakely, it's just you and me today.
0:54
I know we were trying to get Heather on Internet issues.
0:58
What a. Disaster.
0:59
You know what's so funny is it is a disaster, but what's funny
1:03
about it is that you and I were both having issues this week.
1:06
Like I with the reschedule, like all of this, like you're sick.
1:09
I've got my issue with my refrigerator and a few other
1:11
things going on. And Heather was like managing
1:14
the schedule. Then we show up and she's like,
1:16
yeah, I'll be there. She's like, let's get together.
1:19
I'll work around your schedules. You know, let's let's make this
1:21
happen. Then we show up to record and it
1:23
fails like her Internet fails spectacularly.
1:27
So now it's you sick person and me, stressed out person who I've
1:32
got a technician showing up here in a few minutes because I
1:34
couldn't solve the issue. But I was going to.
1:36
I was just going to say, isn't it ironic?
1:39
But anyway, so it's pretty funny.
1:41
Are we quoting lyrics? Yeah, I in the morning play.
1:45
OK, you know that song. OK, Yeah, of course, you know,
1:46
do. I know that song.
1:48
Did I just watch Lilith Fair documentary this weekend?
1:50
Yes, I did. Oh, was it good.
1:54
OK, yes, yes, yes. For people that lived it, it was
1:58
phenomenal. I don't know if it's mainstream
2:01
documentary but I loved it. OK, a good recommendation when
2:05
you're sick to sit down and watch.
2:07
That is why I was watching it, because I couldn't get out of
2:09
bed. And actually, I'm heading back
2:12
to bed while Clay fixes its refrigerator.
2:15
Yeah, and edit this episode. OK, so top three things I wanted
2:20
to ask from you while you're sick.
2:22
But you're on. I'm assuming you're on some
2:24
cocktail of pharmaceuticals that's keeping you here today,
2:28
which highly respect it. Yeah.
2:29
OK, so #1 what's the best sick watch?
2:33
What are you watching? You know, if you're bed rotting,
2:35
what do you turn on? You know when I had COVID pre
2:43
vaccine so like I had like 3 week COVID in bed for three
2:47
weeks. I binge watched the entire
2:50
series of The Crown. OK.
2:54
That was so. That was awesome.
2:57
And that's got to be like 40 hours worth of stuff to watch.
3:01
I mean I. Mean I was in bed for three
3:03
solid weeks so it was not a problem.
3:07
Yeah, my my watches would be like, they're like re watching
3:13
like Breaking Bad Sopranos or I was just talking to Heather
3:17
about Dolce Corazones, which is like a Spanish game show.
3:24
And it's really fun. It's just a lot of energy and
3:27
it's just fun. It's kind of chaotic and.
3:29
Anyway, so you like to watch the most high stressful shows when
3:35
you're sick and you're supposed to be relaxing, like Breaking
3:38
Bad and Sopranos. I couldn't even get through
3:40
those because they were so like high.
3:43
Like you need something to like mellow you out.
3:46
The pace of the Royals, where everything is really slow.
3:49
Yeah, so you want to go slow and chill, and I want to feel like
3:53
I'm doing or I'm in trouble, I'm stressed.
3:56
You're on drugs. You're on drugs, probably.
3:59
That's why I don't recover fast. OK, the second OK, that's good
4:03
for both of us to know. And by the way, I am keeping
4:05
every cough so and I'm going to cut to you when you take a sip
4:08
of something. People need to see things.
4:12
Health is wealth. Drink your tea.
4:14
Health is wealth. The second was what are you
4:17
taking like what's your but in like a what's like the like I go
4:24
for soup, you know, what are you consuming food wise?
4:29
Well I already take 22 supplements a day, so 22 I do
4:35
are. They all combined into one
4:36
thing. Or is it like?
4:37
A bunch. No, no, I like to dabble in like
4:40
longevity experimentation. It's too many.
4:44
My doctor hates it. But I do add on a few more when
4:47
I'm sick. So I add on like like some
4:49
kombucha and another probiotic because I'm on antibiotics.
4:55
That's gotta like regulate you a little bit more.
4:58
And I'm trying to think what else I have added on right now.
5:02
Comfort. Foods.
5:04
Oh, I have not been hungry. I drink a lot of tea.
5:11
Yeah, no soup. I'm broth.
5:12
We did have some fun last night. Excuse me, 'cause that's about
5:15
all I could get down, but even the noodles were hard.
5:20
It was brutal. But like a foot broth.
5:22
That's good. Yeah.
5:23
And but I'm full on over the counter.
5:25
Dayquil Nyquil I I love. Dayquil.
5:30
I love Nyquil. Yeah, yeah.
5:32
They're not sponsors though. Hold on the pills.
5:36
So I have tonsils the size of golf balls right now and like my
5:39
lymph nodes are even bigger. They're probably tennis balls.
5:42
The Dayquil Nyquil pills are an inch long by probably 1/4 inch
5:49
wide and you have to take two of them.
5:52
What were they thinking? Who can swallow that with your
5:55
tonsils? What they're thinking is you
5:58
should drink the liquid. I'm a liquid guy.
6:01
I like the, I like drinking the Dayquil liquid and the Nyquil
6:05
liquid. Yeah, it comes in.
6:07
Like no, it came in a liquid. Yeah, and it's awesome.
6:10
And get the VIX one too. What?
6:14
Seriously. That's the move.
6:15
That's. A good question.
6:17
I'm thank you for bringing that up.
6:18
I have no idea. It's kind of like, I didn't know
6:21
they have these like little sayings on the teeth.
6:24
Well, the pills get stuck in my throat too and they basically
6:27
sit there and you're like, I don't know, First of all, I am
6:30
taking the medication, but a certain point I'm like, what is
6:33
in this? That it I just feel like it
6:36
shouldn't be sitting right here. It's.
6:38
I don't even have a throat right now, Clay.
6:44
My tonsils are literally touching each other right now.
6:48
The fact that I have a smile on my face is total bullshit.
6:51
OK, well, you're breathing, which is all we ask for on this
6:53
podcast. OK.
6:55
But I do have one more question for you before we get to our
6:58
guest and the conversation the rest of the episode today.
7:01
My last question is, what's your setup?
7:04
You're in your bed. Are you on the couch?
7:07
Do you kind of like take over a room?
7:10
Yeah, well, I'm, I'm always in my bed.
7:12
I'm a very comfortable bed and it's set up with two dogs on
7:15
either side of me 'cause they will not lick my side when I'm
7:19
sick. So it's really uncomfortable.
7:21
And then I've got my bedside table which has my book, my
7:27
Kindle, a book, so both and about 40 used tissues on top and
7:33
like Dayquil and Nyquil, like wrappers, I'm done.
7:37
And my glasses and my water bottle and my tea, but it's not
7:41
that big. So it's like it's a whole battle
7:43
of me trying to like grab my tea and then my glasses knock off
7:46
and it's a disaster. I don't have a good setup.
7:49
I don't. Do you have a good setup?
7:53
You know, I'm going to answer is my my setup was pretty normal.
7:56
It's just bed tea and we have like a little projector.
8:02
And so in your bedroom, yeah, it's this like little mini cube
8:06
and set it behind you and it goes on to a white wall and.
8:10
Why? Kind of just why do you have?
8:12
What do you put on that in your bedroom?
8:15
Oh, it's like Apple TV. So you just connect your Apple
8:17
TVHDMI to the little projector and then it goes on to the
8:20
screen. I got the projector for free,
8:22
some guy just gave it to. Me, a technical producer would
8:26
have equipment like that in their bedroom.
8:28
Just saying that and people that need things projected onto their
8:32
bedroom walls. Projectors.
8:34
I have friends who don't have ATV, They only have a projector.
8:38
It's awesome. Yeah.
8:40
You just get one of those like Gray pull down, like silver, the
8:43
silver screen. And it does everything else that
8:47
ATV does. It just it's like wider and it's
8:51
kind of like it's it can be less bright, so it can be kind of
8:54
more like Moody. It's kind of nice.
8:56
Yeah. Yeah.
8:57
But my 6th setup is, oh, what I was going to share.
9:00
My 6th setup is water, tea, whatever, Nyquil, Dayquil, all
9:06
of that. My favorite thing are these like
9:10
the the Ricola like throat plus cherry drops with the menthol in
9:16
the middle. I.
9:18
Love a Ricola? I eat those when I'm not even
9:22
sick. I just, I'll be like, oh, my
9:25
throat's a little dry or something, or I haven't drank
9:28
water in a while, let me just pop one of those.
9:30
I love them. I'm crazy about them.
9:33
I have to tell you a cough trap story.
9:35
Like 2 days ago I was out and about which I shouldn't be.
9:39
I'm so contained. I was terrible but I had to do
9:41
one thing and I can't even like confess it because it was so
9:44
horrible. But just know that I did that.
9:46
But I put a cough trap in my mouth because I had a little bit
9:49
of a public situation and I my throat is so swollen, like
9:55
literally I think my tonsils are touching each other that I
9:58
aspirated on the saliva that was coming off the cough drop.
10:03
And I started choking in the parking lot of the high school.
10:07
And a jogger ran by and had to try to save me because she
10:11
thought I was dying and I might have been wait.
10:14
Wait, you're in your car and the jogger can hear you?
10:17
Or you're just. Standing.
10:18
Walking out of the car trying to get I was OK, I was trying to
10:23
get to my daughter's and like, she got inducted into the Honor
10:26
Society and like, this is a big deal.
10:28
I need to go. And I realized that's awesome.
10:30
No, I couldn't. I couldn't.
10:32
Like, I choked in the parking lot.
10:34
So I went home. All right, So that was I don't
10:40
call me out for trying to go in public that sick.
10:43
OK, well, we need to cut this. It was a fail because I feel
10:46
like you're going to aspirate now.
10:48
So I'm really worried you're going to like pass out on the
10:50
podcast. OK, so let's get to the episode.
10:54
We're so excited to play this. We've recorded over the summer,
10:56
but we need to let listeners know what's coming up.
10:59
So could you intro who Cindy is and maybe a little bit about
11:03
what this conversation is to give a little tease for
11:06
everybody? Well, our guest today is Cindy
11:10
Frigard and she is actually the sponsor of our show and you will
11:14
find out why when you listen to this episode.
11:18
She is the founder of yours truly and she is truly
11:21
phenomenal. She is a coach that helps people
11:24
and businesses figure out what's next and how to get there, and
11:27
she is going to teach us all on how to level up in our jobs.
11:32
OK, great. Heather, we're sorry your
11:35
Internet got sick, Blakely. I'm sorry your throat got sick,
11:41
my refrigerator. I'm sorry that I'm looking.
11:44
I'm not looking up into heaven or where that I'm like looking
11:47
up into my kitchen right now. I am.
11:50
All refrigerators go to heaven. My refrigerator.
11:53
I'm sorry you're sick. Listeners, thanks for joining
11:56
us. Enjoy the rest of the episodes.
11:59
Here we go. See.
12:00
You next time. Hi everyone, Blakely here.
12:07
This episode of Not All Business is brought to you by yours
12:10
truly, where strategist Cindy Forgard helps growth minded
12:14
leaders navigate pivotal moments with confidence.
12:17
I worked with Cindy when I was CEO of Taskray and she's what I
12:20
call ACEO whisperer. She helped us execute.
12:23
A complete brand. Pivot boosted me up as a leader
12:27
and set us up to hit aggressive growth targets that led to our
12:30
successful exit. Whether you've hit a growth
12:33
plateau or you're evolving your company, maybe you're at a
12:37
career crossroads. Yours truly provides the
12:40
strategic guidance you need because what got you here won't
12:43
always get you where you want to go.
12:45
So sometimes you need a Cindy to help push you forward.
12:49
Visit itsyourstruly.com and mention Not All Business for
12:53
complimentary strategy consultation.
12:56
OK, back to the show. Hey, Cindy, welcome, welcome to
13:03
not all business. I'm so excited to have you on
13:05
today. I'm.
13:06
Excited to be here. Hey, Andy.
13:08
Yeah, I love the bookshelf and the color coordination.
13:13
Once a creative, always a creative if you are the most
13:16
creative person I know. And my screen backdrops, my fake
13:20
ones. Yes, I am.
13:22
Thank you, Blakely. Amazing.
13:24
I wanna hear it. Where?
13:25
Where did yours truly come from? The name.
13:27
I love it. Actually, a really good friend
13:30
of mine came up with the name and at first I was like, oh, too
13:36
soft. But then I, you know, I was
13:39
thinking about it. I really actually want to work
13:41
with more women. So I'm like, who cares if it's
13:43
too soft? And then we designed the I
13:45
designed the logo to so to be strong.
13:47
So but I like this idea of this sort of double play of like I'm
13:52
yours truly. But what we come up with is
13:55
yours truly, right? So it's.
13:57
Oh my God, that just. Gave you like.
13:59
Chills. That's so good.
14:01
You must be like a brand strategist or something.
14:06
That's so good. So are you working mostly with
14:08
like founders then? I'm working with founders a lot
14:14
and a lot of them in the SAS space, but I've heard the
14:18
service. Yeah.
14:20
Yeah, so. So, Cindy, I didn't tell you
14:24
this ahead of time, and that's my fault, but we have a no
14:28
acronyms allowed rule in order to open the space for people who
14:35
might not know what the acronym is.
14:36
In this case, it's me. So if you could use me as an
14:40
example, what does that mean? Software as a service.
14:47
It's apps, Platforms, apps. Yeah, you're you're the customer
14:53
of probably 30 of them in your just everyday life, like 30 he's
14:57
got. More than 30 apps on his phone.
15:00
He's a millennial, for goodness sakes.
15:02
No, it's true. Yeah, we we break that rule
15:05
pretty much ourselves like 5 times an episode, so don't worry
15:09
about it. But to your point, Heather, like
15:11
with brand, I think that I, what I found is you have to work with
15:15
the top. So you have to work with the
15:17
founder or you have to work with whoever's in charge.
15:19
Because I've worked with marketing departments on brand
15:22
and it never goes well because they're not the decision makers
15:26
and they're not the vision person.
15:28
You know, they're not the people that are trying to figure out
15:30
where everybody's going and how to get there and all of that.
15:34
Yeah, I I agree with, I agree with you with that.
15:36
The founders are always the ones that are able to hone in on the
15:39
Y, right? Like the center thing.
15:41
We've all read that book, but honing in on the Y and it's it
15:45
gets, the further you get out from the center of the founder,
15:47
the more I I've seen that that just gets lost in translation.
15:50
And so that makes that makes a ton of sense.
15:53
But when you have founders like yours truly, ha.
15:58
Ha ha. Ha, triple play on words I know.
16:03
They may have that vision, may have that why, but they also may
16:07
be the farthest thing from a competent leader like yours
16:12
truly. Stop.
16:13
It. No, I I don't.
16:16
Could I? Could I share?
16:18
A little bit about our meeting time and then I.
16:23
Think it's gonna Is this gonna? Are we gonna get some info about
16:27
how you used to suck as Aceo? Until Cindy.
16:30
And then, but wait, wait, wait time, wait time.
16:34
I would say it wasn't a competency problem, it was a
16:37
confidence problem. We all know that like I, I have
16:42
a confidence problem like speaking in a microphone.
16:46
Does Cindy know that we were, does Cindy know our background,
16:48
that we were competing CE OS? Did you know that?
16:51
Did I tell you that? OK.
16:53
Did I tell you she was the CEO? Well, am I allowed to say our
16:56
company's names? I probably just.
16:57
Fuck it, cloud coach task, right?
16:59
We said it, it's out there. I mean.
17:02
A quick a quick Coco number one editor.
17:04
So yeah. No, your logo was on lots of
17:07
slides so seen it. How to take down cloud coach?
17:17
Why you choose Taskray instead? Of over cloud coach.
17:21
The competitive analysis, OK, all right.
17:23
I see the arena I'm in. All right, continue.
17:26
Like we go. I'm just gonna.
17:28
I'm gonna set it up a little bit because I know the value you
17:33
bring is on how to help people like move up and how do people
17:36
just step up and how to like kind of get into that next role
17:40
because it can just look so different from what you were
17:44
doing before. And yes, confidence has a ton to
17:49
do with that. But you have real strategies to
17:54
help people. So I'm going to, I am going to
17:56
frame up Heather for you when I actually sucked.
17:59
OK. And then maybe Cindy through her
18:03
own like personal story and or as or what me as a a Guinea pig
18:08
can show you how it's done. Yeah.
18:12
And just to be clear, I will not be offering any reciprocity by
18:15
being bringing my executive coach on.
18:18
So that's all confidential. I'm keeping.
18:22
That's not. I'm keeping my incumbent on the
18:24
rack. Yeah, just kidding.
18:26
OK. Yeah, go ahead, Cindy.
18:29
Well, let me just, I'm going to start by saying Cindy and I work
18:33
together on marketing and brand and that was fantastic.
18:37
There was another dynamic going on in the company where we had
18:43
three founders and everything was done by committee and it was
18:47
a real problem and it was holding us back, right.
18:51
And we were all brilliant in our own way, but together running
18:56
things by committee actually made us quite toxic for the
18:59
company. And slow, yeah, I mean, I'm not
19:03
saying, I'm not saying that's being asked, like I'm not
19:05
saying, oh, you guys are slow. I'm just saying like comments.
19:07
Otherwise it feels like it was. Slow and like every decision
19:10
like we couldn't buy an IKEA office chair like without do you
19:15
know what I mean? It was that minutiae or what are
19:18
we going to have for lunch or what are we going to hang on our
19:20
walls, much less like what is going to be our strategy and
19:24
direction for the company. It everything was slow and we
19:27
tried to divide it up by departments and it still didn't
19:30
work out. And then it really happened.
19:32
And I'm not going to share the whole story because that is
19:34
deserving of a podcast with my Co founder sitting next to me.
19:38
But our relationship started to erode and we went through a
19:43
failed acquisition. And I guess as simple as I can
19:50
say, I'll set the scene. We were in a corporate retreat.
19:55
It was our annual retreat with the executive team, the board so
19:59
to speak. And my Co founder had hit the
20:02
wall. He was physically I'll he was on
20:05
the floor in a ball in pain because we had just gone through
20:09
the worst failed acquisition and he was just done.
20:12
He was done. My other Co founder was just
20:16
like you 2 like. Mom, dad, figure your shit out.
20:22
And then we had our CFO that we had just hired and he was like,
20:27
what, what is what did I sign up for?
20:30
Like who is the adult in the room?
20:33
And inside I was just like, I want to do this.
20:36
Like let me lead, let me be the CEO of this company.
20:39
Let me take it to the next level.
20:41
But my Co founder in my head, I had always painted him as the
20:47
perfect visionary and he's so intelligent and he's kind of a
20:52
crystal ball seer. And so I'm like, oh, he's the
20:55
visionary, I'm the operator, he's the visionary, I'm the
20:58
operator. And I told myself so much that
21:01
that I even though I know inside I could do it, I just never rose
21:06
my hand. And somehow in this awful
21:10
meeting, someone just had had to be it.
21:15
And I said I want to be it. And I was crying so hard.
21:21
And then I went back to the office and he's like, fine be
21:24
it. Like just.
21:25
Whatever you said it in that moment, like when he's on the
21:28
floor, like that kind of moment, like that day. 100% it all
21:32
happened in that. Did you like write it on a post
21:34
it and slide it under his nose so he could just see it or did
21:37
you say it like how did you communicate in that moment?
21:40
I'm curious. I was something.
21:42
I was sitting here. It was.
21:45
It was awkward. Chemistry.
21:46
You were sitting at a. You were sitting at a table.
21:48
It was an Airbnb. We were in front of a fireplace
21:52
in a house retreat. Yeah, I was on the very left
21:56
side of the couch. Yeah, our technical Co founder
21:59
was way on the far right side of the couch.
22:02
OK. My other partner was like in a
22:06
ball on the floor kind of racking.
22:08
And our CFO, he was like, he was like 6-5, really tall, loud bass
22:15
voice. Yeah, presence.
22:17
He had presence with like had retreated to the staircase and
22:21
was sitting on it and he was like, wow, like what are we
22:25
doing? And I think it was actually him
22:27
that said, let's just call a vote and.
22:31
And you threw your name in the hat at that point, like you
22:33
said, I'll. Do it?
22:35
I know this sounds really odd. I don't, I'll have to bring Eric
22:38
on to talk about this, but I actually think Eric maybe in a
22:42
self sacrificing kind of moment, said.
22:45
I nominate Blakely because I think he was just so done at
22:48
that point he. He's the guy on the floor or the
22:51
guy on the stairs. He's the guy on the floor and I
22:54
and I think he maybe always thought he was going to be the
22:57
CEO, right? So there was some tension there.
22:59
It's actually ends up being a beautiful love story.
23:01
He's one of my closest friends, so again.
23:04
That conversation. It does sound like, don't tell
23:07
me it takes like a weird turn where everybody busts out the
23:09
wine and all of a sudden it's like we're hugging and.
23:12
Hugging 4 years later. OK, OK, that kind.
23:15
Of like 4 years later we were hugging and we made-up so a lot
23:20
happened. Anyway, that was the moment went
23:24
back, it was time to get to work.
23:26
And that's when all of a sudden I feel like Cindy and my
23:31
relation. I don't know what the proper
23:32
grammar is. Cindy and I Cindy and my
23:34
relationship took a took a turn because where and then I really
23:41
will stop talking, I promise. But where Cindy and her partner
23:45
were always kind of like taking direction and like making it
23:50
great for the first time. They're like knock, knock,
23:54
knock, Blakely. We think that maybe you would
24:01
benefit from, like, basically being a better leader, but
24:06
that's not how she said it. So is that right, Cindy?
24:10
Am I getting the story right? Ish.
24:13
I do have to shout out Eric, my husband and he was my business
24:17
partner. Not the guy on the floor, Eric.
24:20
With task right different Eric. Different, Eric.
24:22
OK, got it. And Eric was Eric actually, and
24:25
Blakely had this real mind melody, heart melody thing that
24:29
happens with them. And we sort of talked about it a
24:34
lot. We're like, do we say something?
24:39
But it wasn't it was more it wasn't about like it was more
24:42
about lately you've got this like step into it, own it, like
24:47
it's going to be fine. And I think what was what came
24:52
up, and I can't remember the time in between Blakely, between
24:56
the ball on the floor situation and the CKO, but I think it's
25:01
sort of all coalesced around company kick off CKO.
25:06
Thank you. Good job.
25:08
Like it was about to Zoom in Really helping Blakely sort of
25:16
figure out how to talk about how she was going to lead the
25:19
company. And it was sort of like her
25:21
coming out party and Eric and I sat in the back and I'm going to
25:25
cry right now crying because she was so amazing and really sort
25:30
of stepped into. So Cindy, tell me what when you
25:34
were, you and your partner Eric were thinking through like, do I
25:39
approach Blakely or Nelly? Sounds like you.
25:41
You both already knew you. You knew that she would be
25:44
fantastic. You saw things in her where you
25:46
knew she could step up and she could do this.
25:48
What were some of those things, if you can recall that, that you
25:53
saw in her that she would be a great leader?
25:58
I think 1. She's super smart and she and I
26:01
were talking about this the other day.
26:02
It's like, you know, she can see the through line and she can
26:06
really. And that's a different type of
26:08
intelligence. I think there's there's all
26:10
different types, but I think seeing the through line is its
26:13
own unique skill. Yeah.
26:15
And then I think the other thing is that she cared so deeply
26:19
about the experience of the people that work there.
26:23
And I think that was one of the great things about Task Ray.
26:26
And I think this is an Eric thing too, wasn't it just which
26:29
was we want to be a great place to work.
26:32
And actually that was sort of the first vision line that we
26:35
came up with too. So, and then there wasn't, you
26:39
know, there's another piece of it, which was it didn't really
26:43
matter if like she didn't really know exactly what to do, but
26:48
somebody had to take charge because we were seeing, because
26:52
we worked with a lot of different groups of people in
26:55
the company, we were seeing sort of the fallout of not having
27:01
clear leadership. And so that was sort of part of
27:05
our decision to say, you know what, you got to do this and you
27:08
can do this and it's going to be fine.
27:10
Yeah. I mean, Cindy, I know for me
27:14
like what made a difference? But how do you talk to someone?
27:18
Like where do you even start with them or what what moves the
27:22
needle the most when you know what you got there isn't what's
27:26
going to get you there? Like I always usually see people
27:29
as like these really high operational performers and so
27:32
they think they can do everything by themselves they
27:37
because that they're so good at it, right?
27:39
And then when you transition to leadership, that's actually not
27:43
your job anymore. Right.
27:46
And these are all lessons that I had to learn on my own.
27:49
Yeah. So I worked, I worked in
27:50
corporate advertising for a long time and I came up from
27:56
basically working as a production artist back in the
28:00
day, which it's not an acronym, but it's kind of hard to explain
28:03
because nobody does that job really anymore.
28:06
It's just like involved pasting things on boards and then, you
28:09
know, all that. And then by the time I left my
28:13
last corporate job, I was like, I can't remember, like a senior
28:16
vice president and I was merging 3 business units together.
28:21
And then I was like, I can't do this anymore.
28:24
I bailed out. But along the way I, you know, I
28:27
became an assistant manager, then a manager, then a director,
28:31
then I joined the leadership team.
28:34
And every single time I moved up, it was like I got to learn
28:37
all kinds of new lessons over again.
28:40
So I was thinking about this and Blakely and I were talking about
28:43
like, sort of like, what are those things that you can't you
28:48
have to be thinking about and like these shifts you have to
28:51
make and how you think about yourself.
28:54
And so I came up with like 7. So as you're, as you're, as
28:58
you're going through the ranks, is that what you say like in
29:01
those? Moments, yeah, like at anytime,
29:02
anytime you're evolving into a new leadership role, whether
29:06
it's, you know, it's like from here to here or here, you know
29:08
what I mean? It's like every time you move
29:10
up, I think you have a new set of anxieties and a new set of
29:13
like uncertainty about whether or not you can do that thing.
29:17
And, and then also like how to be good at that thing, right?
29:21
It's like the lessons that I had to learn the hard way.
29:24
And one of the things which is not one of my 7 is I think back
29:29
on it now and having a mentor or having like a personal Advisory
29:34
Board is super helpful because I think the hardest thing,
29:39
especially for women is that there's like you feel like you
29:42
kind of can't talk to anybody about what you're feeling.
29:45
And I will say in my corporate days, the women were not
29:49
actually supporting each other. Like, I think a lot of women
29:53
were just trying to, like, get ahead, so.
29:56
Yeah, and I wouldn't even say were I still.
30:00
Absolutely. You think?
30:01
Still yes. You don't?
30:05
Are you kidding me? When's the last?
30:06
Executive, when you guys were competitors, did you support
30:08
each other? Not really.
30:11
Still doubt? I I.
30:13
Mean could you reach out and say, hey, I'm having a bad day,
30:16
how's it going for you? Point taken.
30:18
That would take that so to such a vulnerable level.
30:21
I mean, right, you gotta you have to have this face and it's
30:25
still competitive. I mean, I think it's even a
30:27
little harder between women because there's fewer seats at
30:30
the table. And so then instead of, you
30:32
know, picturing like, OK, well, I want to get to the table to do
30:35
whatever I can to get another woman at the table, It's like,
30:37
oh, no, we're just both going to focus on fighting for that one
30:39
seat, right? And then it's it's a mistake.
30:42
And yes, it will continue to evolve.
30:44
But right now it is very much still competitive.
30:47
Then I guess I'm glad I'm still in the working.
30:50
You're still in this life. Yeah, yeah.
30:52
I do miss the company car and all those things.
30:54
But yeah, I think the other thing too for women, it's like
30:59
you don't get the support. Yeah, you can't be vulnerable.
31:04
And I think The thing is like, no matter how senior you get,
31:07
you're still you, you know what I mean?
31:09
It's like you still bring all your stuff with you and it's
31:12
like it's just, it is just is. And having being able to talk to
31:20
people about that is is helpful. It absolutely is.
31:24
It's why we're here and it's why you're here.
31:26
So I, I'm, I, OK, I'm. You've got me on the edge of my
31:28
seat. 7 things. OK, 7.
31:29
Things. I'm so excited, OK?
31:32
All right, the first one for me, which is a super hard one, and
31:36
it's still a hard one, is delegating and like
31:39
understanding that when you empower other people to do
31:43
things, it makes your life easier and it's better for
31:46
everybody. But it's just like this hard,
31:49
hard lesson. And I think part of it is
31:52
because in my family it was like, bring your solutions,
31:55
don't bring your problems. Like I learned that I had to
31:58
have all the answers and I had to do things myself.
32:00
And I had a narcissist mother, which is a whole other story.
32:04
But it's like I was very self-contained and I learned how
32:08
to be and I brought that into my work and it bit me in the butt
32:12
so many times. So I think like learning that
32:15
delegating is not weakness, it's actually a strength.
32:19
Like, that is something that's taking me a long time.
32:23
So good. And Eric, my husband and partner
32:26
has been like, when I say that. Oh, yeah, delicate, he's like,
32:30
oh, please. I've been telling you this for
32:31
like 30 years. So it's about time you figured
32:35
it out. OK, It's the next one.
32:37
It's like. Done my next tattoo.
32:39
I don't have a tattoo but if I. Said oh wait, I would.
32:41
Be a good one for you, OK? No, no.
32:43
OK, All right, cool. OK, it's OK not to help out all
32:48
the answers. Again, Like in my family, it
32:52
like, you had to be right. You had to, you know, like
32:56
mistakes weren't really allowed. I have this one like, you know,
33:01
traumatic therapy story, which is I was trying to read out of a
33:05
book in a Japanese bookstore. And I said this phrase, which is
33:10
this is a book wrong. And my mother mimicked me like
33:14
then and for years it came like a family joke.
33:18
But it's like, so I again, you learn these things when you're
33:21
young. And I think like a lot of women,
33:23
you learn that you have to be a certain way.
33:28
And so it's like, no, I don't have to be right all the time.
33:31
Like I can just own like, I don't know, like, and I think
33:36
that like, I think in parenthood, I'm not a parent,
33:38
but you know, I always tell my sisters this.
33:40
It's like if you tell your kid you don't know or you're sorry
33:43
or whatever, but I don't know. It's, it's they're gonna
33:47
actually, it's better for them, I think.
33:49
Absolutely, yeah. So it's freedom, Yeah.
33:53
So I think like not knowing or being unsure, it's like it's
33:56
growth rather than like, oh God, I'm I'm not capable.
34:01
I'm not competent, yeah. I can't competent.
34:03
I'm not competent. OK, Another one is like, you can
34:06
raise the bar without pissing people off.
34:11
Again. Another, like, hard lesson I
34:12
learned is I, like, came into a management role and I'm like,
34:17
I'm going to change how we do things because it's going to be
34:19
so much better. And I stepped on all kinds of
34:22
toes. And my boss at the time, he's
34:25
the creative director of the agency, pulled me aside.
34:26
And he's like, OK, so here's the thing.
34:31
You're like, right. You're smart.
34:35
It's like what you're trying to do is right, but you're like 100
34:38
miles ahead of everybody and you're all out there alone.
34:41
And I'm sending you off to Dale Carnegie.
34:43
So he sent me off to Dale Carnegie.
34:45
I just learned how to like win friends and influence people.
34:48
But it's like, it's like bringing people along is as a
34:53
leader is super important. And I think you, especially when
34:57
you're a new leader, you're like, I got to show everybody
35:00
how smart I am and how I deserve this job and how you know, And
35:04
it's like, that's not true. Yeah, it's like that seagull
35:07
management where it's like the worst thing you can do is come
35:10
and do a company and just shit all over everything.
35:13
Yeah, that's my did, yeah. Swooping and shit all over
35:15
everything, yeah. But it feels like what you kind
35:18
of need to do, because it feels like how you're going to prove
35:20
yourself. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
35:22
You want to make an impact, but Yep. #4 keeping in mind that
35:26
Coldplay is coming. Oh, listeners.
35:29
Don't know that yet. Oh.
35:32
Yeah, I'll tell you. Like he's going to Coldplay.
35:35
Like he's going to. Coldplay Yeah, that's why I'm
35:37
wearing this half. Sexy sexy outfit.
35:42
Do you have your see through bag too?
35:44
I don't forget I have it and listeners also don't know that
35:49
Cindy gave me a hammock like designer concert bag because she
35:56
knows how much I love concerts. For my 50th birthday, Cindy and
36:00
Eric gave me this bag. I wear it to every I do.
36:03
It's ready by the door next to my pre.
36:06
Because you need it. Because they tried to take my
36:08
lululemon non see through bag away from me last time.
36:11
I'm like, oh, they did. Oh no, I'm never without my
36:14
Hamlet bag. OK, Anyway, that's our another
36:16
sponsor. There we go.
36:18
Hopefully you don't have tampons in it.
36:19
OK, go ahead. OK.
36:21
This one is a sort of like a Blakely thing that we talked
36:27
about a lot at the time when she was transitioning into her CEO
36:31
role, which is you don't have to share everything.
36:33
Like people don't know everything that's going on.
36:39
It doesn't mean that you're less authentic or you're less
36:42
transparent if you don't share it all, because it makes people
36:46
kind of feel unstable, especially when things are not
36:50
going well. Like they just don't need to
36:53
hear about that. Stuff, My God, I definitely do
36:55
that. I've definitely done that.
36:58
It's here. But it's it's like I'm trying to
37:01
let them. I know we're in a hurry, but
37:03
it's like I'm trying. I want to set people at ease.
37:05
So if I feel like I'm sharing this, then it's setting the
37:07
stage to let them know that they can share that back with me.
37:09
And I want to kind of create that sense.
37:11
But then it's also in a weird way, kind of putting that
37:14
pressure on them or a burden to hold something that they didn't
37:16
ask for. And then now you've put that on
37:18
them and then I don't know how they're going to take it or
37:20
they're going to feel with it. It's a huge assumption on my
37:22
part that they'd want to know it in the first place, but.
37:24
Absolutely. That's why you have a podcast.
37:26
So you're gonna like, dump it all on the podcast?
37:29
Yeah, do it all over here. I'll deal with that here.
37:31
Yeah, but. On your in your day jab, you
37:34
gotta play it cool. Button it up a little bit.
37:36
Yeah. All right.
37:37
I received that. I think it's a fine line, right?
37:40
Yeah. It's like you can't be
37:41
completely opaque, but you got, Yeah, you don't have to share
37:45
everything. Yeah, that's I'm still working
37:47
on it. Same.
37:50
That one, yeah, I have a hard time with that one, too.
37:52
Never mind all of these I have a hard time with.
37:54
So OK, this is another one that Blakely I've been talking about,
37:59
which is just because you feel like you're imposter doesn't
38:04
mean you don't belong like that. That feeling.
38:07
And again, like, I think I've been thinking about this a lot.
38:10
It's like, it doesn't matter if this is the first time you've
38:14
been promoted or the 10th time you've been promoted.
38:17
I think there's always that feeling like, do I deserve this?
38:20
Do I belong here? Why did they give this to me?
38:24
But it's like, the point is they gave you the job or they offered
38:28
you. And you know, Blakely was
38:29
talking about how she didn't take jobs because she didn't
38:32
think she had enough training or education or I'm like, they're
38:36
offering. They offered you the job.
38:38
Like yeah, that's why. I turned down.
38:41
Right. And they they don't make those
38:42
decisions lightly either. I think I.
38:45
Turned down more jobs than you can imagine and it's weird like
38:48
who does that? Who self sabotages themselves?
38:52
Sounds like a brag to me, but anyway, OK number. 6 Fudge.
38:55
Everything I say sounds like a brag.
38:57
I. Turned down like a douche.
38:59
I've so terrible. I didn't take it that way.
39:03
I'm not, I'm just joking. Keeping it light.
39:07
OK, OK #5-O6. We're on number 65, we're on 6.
39:12
Heather's keeping track. OK, so this is one this is my
39:16
tattoo. Actually, it's it's more than OK
39:20
to take a pause before you respond.
39:22
So like this big lesson I've been trying to learn the last
39:25
couple years here is like stimulus pause respond, not
39:32
stimulus react. You know, it's like so this has
39:35
been on a lot of like I've listened to a lot of podcasts.
39:38
So it's like Tara Brock is talking about this.
39:40
Brené Brown is actually where I first heard it from.
39:42
It's a Viktor Frankel, but not really quote that Stephen Covey
39:46
is attributed to him, but can't figure out where you saw it.
39:49
But Frankel people say they don't know where it came from,
39:51
but it's like, what is the quote?
39:52
It's between stimulus and response.
39:55
There's a space and in that space lies our freedom and power
39:59
to choose our response. And in our response lies our
40:02
growth and our happiness, which for me like just.
40:07
Not it's like it goes back to not feeling you have to have all
40:10
the answers. It's like just take a beat,
40:13
especially when you're like triggered or you, you feeling
40:17
like, oh God, I'm feeling like an imposter or you don't know
40:20
something. It's like just and also there's
40:23
something about the pause just being the answer.
40:27
You know, it's like I've seen so many people that I consider to
40:30
be good leaders just say nothing at.
40:33
All oh, speaking volumes with with silence, right?
40:37
Yeah, I love that. Did you guys watch that?
40:39
Was it called the residence? That detective show?
40:44
Anyway, she's just like, it's a Shonda Rhimes show.
40:46
I think it's called the residence.
40:48
She's just like detective. There's like this whodunit thing
40:52
in the White House and they're they're interrogating the, you
40:56
know, suspects or whatever. And she's just sitting there and
41:01
the guy that she's, you know, interviewing is just blah blah
41:05
blah going on and like just just really making it bad for her.
41:10
And she says absolutely nothing the entire time for like 5
41:13
minutes. It's an interrogation technique,
41:17
like it's to be silent. But we can use it.
41:20
Yeah, I, I used it my, my quick little like transition from CEO
41:24
to CEO story is that I had been doing the job for a little bit.
41:28
Long story short, the CEO at the time had moved overseas and so I
41:31
was kind of practically doing the job, led the company through
41:33
COVID, all this things. So we had this talk where I was
41:36
like, you know, I've already been CEO for four years and I
41:38
just knew I wanted more. And I worked with my coach to
41:40
figure out like, do I want this? Like full body?
41:42
Yes, yes, I do want this. And so when I had to have the
41:48
conversation, I was approaching it as Co CEO's because I was
41:51
afraid. I was afraid.
41:52
I was like, oh, he'll never want to give it up.
41:53
Like he just he just won't want to do that.
41:55
And I don't have enough guts to like, say, here's why I think
41:57
you should. And so I just asked for Co CEO's
42:00
and then he said, like you said Blakely immediately I don't like
42:03
the look of Co CEO's, which was the thing and I also agree with,
42:07
but I didn't have the guts to ask for more.
42:09
And in that moment I was previously I would have probably
42:14
said, I get it, I agree, that's OK.
42:17
But I was silent and I just paused and I just took a deep
42:21
breath. And then I said, well, what do
42:23
you suggest? And then he surprised me and
42:26
said, you know what? I think I'm ready to move over
42:29
to founder, still be very involved, but let's just go
42:31
ahead and make you CEO. And it was like beyond my
42:33
wildest dreams of like I had the courage to ask for it, but then
42:36
I had that, that willingness to just stay silent in a very, very
42:41
uncomfortable moment. I'm always feeling uncomfortable
42:42
silences but I just shut the fuck up and then just waited and
42:48
it worked out. The alternate.
42:51
The alternate title to #6. Is just all right.
42:55
Yeah, OK. So that's my tattoo.
42:58
It's going to be like a little hard in between because I also
43:00
think like in that pause, you know, it's like, how can you
43:05
like whatever's happening? Because usually it's triggering.
43:07
It's like how can I like respond with love like and not?
43:11
Yeah. Anger or beating myself up or
43:14
whatever it is that's going on in the moment, that's probably
43:16
not very. Positive or apologizing, jumping
43:19
to a right like taking on stuff that you.
43:21
Shouldn't just because? To get through it.
43:23
Oh, wait, yeah, that's that's number seven, is it?
43:28
Well, it's like being strong. Doesn't have to be mean, doesn't
43:33
mean you have to be selfless. And so it's kind of like
43:37
Heather, it's, it's sort of what you're saying, which is I was
43:41
listening to this podcast the other day about high functioning
43:43
codependency. Have you guys heard of this
43:45
concept? I don't know, but I'm
43:46
definitely. That just from you.
43:48
Yeah, you gotta check it out. Yeah.
43:50
So this woman named Terry Cole came up with it.
43:52
She's a psychiatrist or therapist.
43:54
I can't remember what she's, but it's like, it's OK.
43:58
So she's like when you take responsibility for things that
44:01
aren't actually yours to take responsibility for.
44:05
So it's like when you apologize, instead of just staying quiet,
44:09
you're kind of taking responsibility for the other
44:11
person's feelings. Even like because a lot of times
44:13
I think is women too, especially like we'll just apologize.
44:17
We don't mean it. We don't know what we're
44:18
apologizing for. So sorry to do this, sorry to do
44:23
this, sorry to have a different opinion, but yeah, sorry.
44:26
We actually instituted in our house, I've got two teenagers,
44:30
but this started when they were like 12 and 14.
44:33
It was probably when I was going through all of this stuff.
44:35
My son would swear all the time. So every time he swore we made
44:39
him do 5 push ups. My daughter would say I'm sorry
44:44
all the time for anything and we're like this.
44:46
Every time you say I'm sorry you're doing 5 push ups.
44:51
And Heather, if you want to know who has the best triceps.
44:55
Is that where your husband gets him from all the saris All.
44:58
The family pushups, but it, it's so important to break young
45:04
girls from that habit. It's so important.
45:08
So all you moms and dads out there like to have your daughter
45:12
get really big muscles by doing 5 push ups every time she's
45:16
leaving, she says, I'm sorry. Yeah, no, thank you.
45:19
Yeah, anyway. Yeah, it's a bad habit for sure.
45:22
Well I feel like we need to Schedule 7 more podcasts stat.
45:26
And we I. Agree.
45:27
We break down every single one of these.
45:30
Well, you guys could just do an episode on each one with
45:33
somebody else and talk to them about it.
45:36
I want. You might be a regular.
45:38
We'll let you know on that. Thank you so much, Cindy.
45:42
I I want to keep talking for hours, but I know we're short on
45:45
time. Just to wrap up, we ask the same
45:48
question of all of our guests as we close out.
45:50
And so just want to ask you what brought a smile to your face
45:54
this week? Gosh, that wasn't the same
45:57
question I thought it was going to be.
46:00
I think I I asked you pre show, what would your walk on song be
46:04
as a Yeah, yeah. Yeah, do you have an answer?
46:09
I love Jon Batiste, his song Freedom oh.
46:13
That's really. Good, he's coming to Red Rocks.
46:16
Oh really? Look at the smile.
46:18
That just brought to her face. OK, I think we just found both.
46:21
Brought the smile. To her face.
46:23
As Jon Batiste is coming to Red Rocks, Yes, that is awesome.
46:27
Mine was easy packing up my daughter and bringing her home
46:30
for the summer. Yeah, lately.
46:33
That's great. My.
46:37
Husband and niece for the week. I'm sure you have one or two.
46:40
I, I have a ton, but I'm just super proud of my daughter.
46:43
She just got her license and I don't know, there's something
46:46
about that's like the next big phase of life where yeah, I'm
46:52
proud of her. Beautiful.
46:54
You just all have to stay off the roads.
46:56
Yes. That's right.
46:59
That's what comes with it. But also you don't have to drive
47:02
her everywhere. That's awesome you.
47:03
Gotta be happy. That's probably a true smile,
47:06
yeah. Yeah, you just got a little bit
47:07
of your life back, girl. All right.
47:10
Well, that's all the time we have.
47:12
Thanks everybody so much for listening.
47:13
Thank you, Cindy for being here. Thank you.
47:16
Awesome. Thank you for having me.
47:18
Finding yours truly and you know, continuing to help
47:21
business leaders and businesses with that.
47:23
I think it's beautiful. So appreciate you.