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Andy Hayler: You’re Paying Too Much for Bad Food · The BEYOND Podcast

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I'm uh the first person to have eaten at every three-star Michelin restaurant in the world.
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Best countries in the world for food, full stop.
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Obviously some fine restaurants in France.
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The very high-end restaurants in Germany are probably some of the very best in the
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world with a chef called Christian Bau, who's had three Michelin stars since two
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thousand and five.
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He's sufficiently confident about his stars, he's got three stars tattooed on his arm.
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But I think Japan wins for a number of reasons.
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I remember going to a place in a very obscure part of Tokyo.
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A ramen noodle place, run by this quite elderly guy.
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He sleeps on the floor of the restaurant so he can get up during the night and stir
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the stock for the next day.
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How much does the average three-star Michelin meal cost?
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In Paris, three-star restaurant, you're probably gonna pay four hundred Euros for
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the tasting menu, it might even be six hundred Euros if you go to one particular place.
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What's the best thing for you about high-end dining?
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The ability of a really great restaurant to produce a very special experience.
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I went off to this place on the edge of a volcano in Japan, I mean that's something
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I will remember, something you don't get to do every day.
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What is the most common mistake everyday people make when they're cooking at home?
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They they try to do something that's too too fancy and beyond their they're beyond
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their capabilities.
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What about tapeworm in raw fish?
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I've been to a museum in Japan called the Parasite Museum.
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The prize exhibit is a a big cabinet, a twenty nine feet long tapeworm that came out
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of a guy's uh digestive system in in Hiroshima.
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I presume if you had a tapeworm you would know, right?
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I think in the restaurant world, Michelin is the most respected guide from chefs, um
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primarily because they don't um take any money, basically, from restaurants.
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Um so the inspections are anonymous, um the restaurants don't know that they're
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coming.
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Um the vast majority of other restaurant review guides and influencers um take some
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kind of p p fee or payment or hospitality or whatever from from restaurants and and
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therefore they can be influenced um whereas that's the very definition of the word
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influencer.
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Um the um Michelin on on the other hand run a completely independent set of
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full-time inspectors who go go around restaurants that they think may be worth um
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you know worthy of some kind of award.
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And um they they give out stars to the restaurants that are at the the the the top
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of the top of that tree.
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So yes, I think uh it's fair to say that the in the in the the restaurant world, You
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know, Michelin would be the the kind of the the Olympic standard, you know, of of of
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of of food guides, yeah.
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Mm-hmm. that you say involved.
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Yes, I mean in in in the in the whole world there, you know, it varies obviously
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every not just every year, the these days every, month or two when a new new guy
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comes out.
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But roughly speaking there's about a hundred and fifty uh three-star restaurants in
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the world.
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Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
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Alright, what is uh uh Michelin's style?
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Yes, let's go back to basics.
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So the Michelin guide started in nineteen hundred um which uh now at that time there
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were only um a few hundred uh cars on the road in in uh in France, but they uh
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Michelin tyre company, which was a couple of brothers, um had the idea of wanting to
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promote um travel by car.
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And so they they set up the idea of a of a guide which would list um initially p
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sort of places to stay, so the hotels and and restaurants, good restaurants to eat
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They also used to list sort of mechanics and and garages because uh where to find
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at.
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petrol 'cause that kind of thing was a was a was very limited in those days.
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Um so the guide sort of developed from its nineteen hundred origins and in nineteen
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Uh twenty six they introduced the idea of a of a Michelin star uh for r particularly
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notable restaurants.
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Um and in nineteen thirty three they extended that uh little bit and they awarded
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either one star two stars or three stars.
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Um now that's stayed ever since.
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And and the definitions are that um for for for a one star restaurant that is a a g
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a very good restaurant in its category.
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Um Um a two-star restaurant is that somewhere that's worth a detour.
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And a three-star restaurant is somewhere that's worth a special journey.
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And those those definitions have remained unchanged since 1933.
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So, actually a Michelin style is about is rated or g or given about how much how
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worthy it is of actually visiting.
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It's not about the food is like this or something.
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It it's basically is it worth the detour.
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Yeah, I mean I mean it clearly is about the f related to the food because it's a
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restaurant.
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I mean but and and and in in theory You know, Michelin, you know, assess primarily
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the the the f the food.
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I mean they this they have a very a fairly opaque system, so it isn't entirely clear
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what they su uh assess things on, but based on the interviews that have been
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occasionally given over the years.
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Uh they they p they p they're primarily scoring on the food.
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That actually makes it more scary for anyone listening, anyone running a restaurant,
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because you don't really know what they are thinking about and judging you on
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generally to get the start.
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Yeah, they uh well i as I say in interviews in in recent years there'd be in a kind
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of little bit less tight lips.
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So there are There are a few criteria which they have acknowledged that they use.
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So one of them is the uh quality of ingredients.
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Um one of them is the sort of technical skill um of the chef.
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Um w one uh is the um what they would call the just the personality of the chef come
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through in the food, one that's obviously a little bit harder to define.
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Um and the fourth is consistency.
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Um which is interesting, since Michelin probably rarely actually go back to a
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restaurant more than once in a year, except under unusual circumstances, but
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nonetheless consistency is what they would claim is uh um one of the factors.
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So those those factors are the ones that they they they've admitted to.
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So to be able to probably reproduce that level of dish over and over and over again.
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Okay, so it should it matter for the everyday person, this Michelin star?
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I mean if I'm travelling to Spain and I know that in in Girona there's a restaurant
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with three stars, it is a known restaurant, it's either first or second in the whole
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entire world, Do you recommend well, Michelin certainly does a detour and making the
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effort if you can get a place that is 'cause none of those t restaurants are so
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difficult to get into.
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Let's just be honest.
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Is it worth it?
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Well, you're you're in the one you're referring to is a restaurant called El Celler
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de Can Roca um run by three brothers.
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Um yeah, it's it's um uh yeah, and I know it is a uh a pretty pretty interesting
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restaurant.
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I mean I think Uh the the definition of a three-star restaurant, it's you know,
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there's only a hundred and fifty roughly in the world.
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You know, I mean, you know, it's clearly you know, those restaurants should in for
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principle be be worth a special journey.
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And and that one is is a is a in my view a p a pretty good one.
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Um, so you know, it's um um you know, certainly be so I I n I enjoy my meal there
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very much.
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I remember a Even now I can remember a particularly spectacular sort of uh very
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elaborate take on beef tartare that I ate there, which was very uh incredibly
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interesting dish.
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So um you know, but the yes, I'd say that it's uh it's worth a worth a journey.
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Do you know what I love about what you do?
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Because I've just come back from a fantastic holiday in Japan.
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Amazing food, all that kind of thing.
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I think Japan's a particularly nice example of being to Japan thirteen times.
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Thirteen times, gosh.
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Yeah, I thi I have on my w uh yeah dot com web site I've got over uh just a ex I
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think it was exactly a hundred reviews just of Tokyo restaurants in Tokyo.
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Uh but I've been also to um number of other places obviously to Kyoto, but also to
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Oh, you know Kobe, and to Nara, and to um Uh uh Hiroshima, and uh Um other other
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locations including her Hokkaido and and one of the Probably the most probably the
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most interesting location I've ever been to at a restaurant is in Japan.
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Um so there's a place uh c called uh m which is a French restaurant that's a sister
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of a place in in France.
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And this um place in in Japan is is actually Um set on the r on the rim of a of a of
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a volcano, an extinct volcano, uh the the the um the the about thirty thousand years
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ago the a the volcano blew up and literally lost its sort of lid, if you like.
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And there's now a big sort of volcanic lake in the middle.
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And there's only one building on the side of the volcano, which is a is a hotel.
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And this uh restaurant Michel, is is in that hotel.
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So it o overlooks the volcanic lake.
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So yeah.
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Incredible, and it has three.
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Uh that had three stars.
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Um it's think it's currently got two.
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But uh yeah, when I went there, it had three uh I had a terrific chef uh for some
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years g you know, called Alexandre Bourdas who then moved to France.
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No, but his own restaurant in uh on fleur, which was superb.
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Mm.
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Okay, but we're talking about quite posh things now, so let's get onto the
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nitty-gritty.
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How much does the average three-star Michelin meal cost?
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It's that's hard to say, I know, but I think yeah, I think there's there's two
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things.
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Um well firstly, you've got a distinguishing food and wine, um because I think the
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so the total bill is gonna be dramatically dependent on what you spend on on drinks.
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Um in terms of food, um The b the b the b the b sorta bill will actually vary
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significantly by by location of my country.
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Um so certain locations like London or Paris or um are you know inherently
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expensive.
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So you know in Paris, three-star restaurant, you're probably gonna pay four hundred
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Euros for the tasting menu.
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It might even be 600 Euros if you go to one particular place.
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Um but that but it's something like that.
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And in even in London, you know, even a non three-star restaurant, somewhere like
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Ikoyi two-star, I think last time I looked was about four hundred and fifty pounds,
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the tasting menu.
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Um most of them are a little bit less than that, maybe to two ninety five pounds,
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something like that.
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But you can if you sort of sort of hunt around say, you know, more obscure bits of
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Japan which have got starred restaurants, you know, I've eaten one three-star meal I
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think at the time I missed these a decade ago, but was something like, you know,
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fifty Pounds or something for the for person.
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Um that's very unusual.
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Um but yes, you would you would typically spend, you know, mm let's say between two
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to four hundred Pounds Uh on a on a on a meal in a three-star restaurant, which will
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usually be, these days, mostly a tasting menu.
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A few places do have a cart, but that's not so common these days.
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Um so you'll get a lot of diff different dishes for that.
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Um um yeah, but that but roughly speaking, obviously what you spend on wine or or
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other drinks is is then up to you and you can spend obviously a a great deal if you
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if you choose to.
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Um but that's clearly your choice.
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You could just drink water if you prefer.
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Okay, so should you Does the price automatically go up?
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So one-star, two-star, three-star?
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Or or do the sort of the restaurants feel like oh now that I've got three stars I'm
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gonna get you, I'm I'm I'm gonna charge.
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And do you know like are there some really good one that are better than
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three-stars?
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Or is it always three stars better?
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Yeah, so there's couple of questions there.
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So I think the the The the answer the first question is is the last thing you said
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which was that the essentially once a place gets to say a star, then they They've
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probably feel more comfortable charging, you know, a bit more.
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And if they get a second star after a little while they'll think, oh, I actually got
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two stars now.
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We can probably charge a bit more and so on.
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So it tends to work like that.
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I mean there's no rules.
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I mean it's a in their easy to all independently owned restaurants.
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So they can charge whatever they like.
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But but in in general, yeah, the prices tend to creep up as the as the stars sort of
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can continue um and uh and uh and so.
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Yeah. Okay, and are there some better one-stars than three-stars?
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Yeah, I mean I think um they're I think they probably are actually.
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Uh I think that the the standard of three stars I mean obviously Michelin have a a
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Uh system, we should say, is very opaque and they have For a number of inspectors.
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We don't really even know how many inspectors there are that we've have some rough idea.
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Um but clearly these are all human beings and they have different It's like
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different opinions, and even though they're following a methodology, uh people end
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up with different views.
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So there are certain restaurants which are I think generally reckoned to be um let's
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just say strangely assessed by Michelin, uh but you may have three stars which were
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whereas the majority of Sort of w experienced diners and chefs would tend not to
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agree uh with Michelin.
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Um and now on the other hand there were some restaurants which have got two or
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one-star um which are you know terrific and for some reason Michelin seems to have
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you know overlooked them or not really understood them or whatever.
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So I'll give you an example.
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There's a terrific restaurant in um r near Richmond called the Dysart.
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And the Dysart's got one Michelin star.
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Um the chef was actually a Roux scholar.
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So the Roux scholarship is the sort of premiere c culinary competition for
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professional chefs in Britain.
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And every year one person wins it.
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So the the person that won it in two thousand ten was a guy called Ken Culhane.
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And he's the head chef for the Dysart.
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Um, although he only has one star, but for me it's evidently um uh you know, a solid
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two-star uh and much better than many many many of the two-stars if not three-stars
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around the UK.
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And you know, it's it's a sort of mystery to me why that that doesn't have at least
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one more star.
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The thing is for a person who hasn't eaten in every single three-star Michelin
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restaurant, who doesn't have your experience, how can, you know, how can we
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watching, how can we know whether what, you know, whether those stars are are earned
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and whether, you know, whether we should justify that money, like how do you know
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besides taste and enjoying a meal?
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You read the website.
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Uh I mean, you know, I I literally have listed every Every three-star restaurant at
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least uh li on list until until the pandemic.
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Um um that was completely up to date.
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Uh f I first ate at all the three-stars in two thousand four and kept that going
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until the till the pandemic.
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Um so um you know, at least on the m uh the m you know, the three-star restaurants
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you can certainly have a look at my my reviews.
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Um and you know, I think in general when you're trying to assess restaurants, I mean
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You know, you can do some research.
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It's not just me.
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Obviously there are there are other, um you know, reviewers and other, um you know,
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blogs and and websites.
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And you've gotta sort of try and find somebody that you, You know, you you you agree
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with someone who's tastes coincide with yours and that you you come to trust.
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Um. Most people go onto Google Maps and they check those styles as some sort of
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advisor.
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Well some something like that.
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Yeah.
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Yeah, there's I mean there's there's a place there's a place for TripAdvisor and and
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Google Maps and and there's something else in America as well.
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Um the um there's a place for those.
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I mean there's nothing wrong with that.
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I think the the issue is that these can be manipulated with s some ease by
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restaurants.
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There was a famous case in the UK where a a bored journalist who was between jobs Um
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set up a completely fake restaurant called The Shed.
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There was literally a shed in his garden.
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Um and he registered it as a restaurant.
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And then he started to got friends to post reviews on TripAdvisor.
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And then he would post post pictures of the dishes which were just, you know, stuff
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he'd done in the kitchen.
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And they were pretty laughable, you know, things.
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Um he managed to buy buy sort of skillful manipulation to get that to be the number
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one rated restaurant in the in London on TripAdvisor.
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Um so so I think, you know, you can you can just Google that yourself, scroll the
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shed.
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Um so so I think that the difficulty with with those types of things is that they
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are easily manipulated.
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And that's that's the trouble when you're trying to research restaurants.
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You've gotta find people or sources that you trust.
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So um what's the best thing for you about high-end dining?
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I I think it's the ability of um of a really great restaurant to produce a a very
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sort of special experience.
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So you can i if it if it is genuinely good, um the food's great and the service is
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lovely, Um, you know, maybe the environment's nice as well.
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Um, you know, you can produce a very memorable evening.
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So I say wi mine when I went off to this place on the edge of a volcano in Japan, I
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mean that's something I will remember, you know, it's something you don't get to do
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every day.
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Um, and so it's, a you know, it's a it's a it's, a you know, it's very Interesting
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memory, I can remember the dishes I ate there, for you know, reasonably well.
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Um, you know, it's it's something that creates, a you know, a a genuine memory.
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You th you're actually absolutely right.
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When my husband and I talk about, you know, we ha we have lovely memories, we've
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been to so many different countries and done so many cool things adventures, and so
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And it's incredible, because what I remember, if we go back to holidays, you know,
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on.
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fifteen years ago, whatever, twenty years ago, and we're talking about it, I
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remember the food.
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I'll say yes, yes, that place where you had the steak and I had the ribs and, then
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you know, I remember the food.
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Always. And I'll forget all these other things.
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But the food is just, you know, I remember I remember my favourite chocolate mousse
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that I ever had in a tiny little restaurant in Begur, in Spain, Costa Brava.
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I'll never forget it, ever.
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Terrific.
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Big sensory experience.
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Oh.
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It lingers in the mind.
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Okay, let's talk about the international side of it.
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This is gonna be a very difficult question.
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I am gonna put you on the spot.
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Best countries in the world for food, full stop.
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Japan.
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Agree after just coming back from Japan.
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Wow.
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Yes, yes.
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I think, yeah, many restaurants have got, you know, many countries have got great
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restaurants.
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I mean there's some, you know, obviously some fine restaurants in France.
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Uh there's some t uh the thing that places I think are very underrated by People in
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the UK anyway.
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Uh uh the restaurants, the very high-end restaurants in Germany are probably some of
18:06
the very best in the world.
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Yeah, so you know, places like um Christi b ships like Christian Bau or Waldhotel
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Sonnora, Schwarzwaldstube, these are absolute top-of-the-range three-stars.
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You know, these B several of these will be in the top.
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So ten. traditional German.
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No no, they're serving um they're serving French food basically.
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Um I mean there will be some little German touch um uh perhaps, yeah, there'll be
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some little you know little jokey black forest gutter or something in in in a in a
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dessert.
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Um I think Christian Bau, who's d uh in is in Perl-Nennig, which is near Luxembourg,
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but it's still in Germany, Uh he's has got a heavy Japanese influence on his
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cooking.
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So it's sort of you'd think of it as mostly French, but there's a lot of Japanese
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touches.
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Um and in general J Japans are very has a l a lot of influence in in other um fine
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dining around the world at the moment and and for in his case for for over a decade.
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Um but I think Japan just sort of wins for a number of reasons.
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Um The um they have exceptionally high quality produce, uh particularly fruit and
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vegetables, which are the best in the world essentially.
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Um and they also have, you know, famously the the biggest fish market in the world,
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you know, in Tokyo.
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When when I went there years ago it had sixty five thousand people working there.
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Um, to give you a sense, a scale.
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Um uh excuse the pun.
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Um and and obviously they're pretty well known for their their beef, you know wha
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wagyu beef which literally means two characters means Japanese cattle.
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So there's no such thing as uh you know highland wagyu or scot you know Texan wagyu
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'cause wagyu literally means a Japanese beef uh Japanese cattle to, be precise.
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Um so those that's very famous, they're also pretty famous for their pork as well.
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Um so uh I I think just generally the the standard at all levels in Japan's very
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high.
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So you have a lot of very simple restaurants that are very cheap and very basic.
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Um but uh I remember going to a place in a very obscure part of Tokyo with a
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Japanese friend uh a few years ago and this was a ramen noodle place um and the it's
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run by this quite elderly guy who must be way into his late sixties um who runs it
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really on his own.
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Um he sleeps on the floor of the restaurant and so he can get up during the night
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and stir the stock for the next day.
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Um and he uh you know you have a meal there, you know you have a soup and and a and
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a beer and it's maybe ten pounds.
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Um and yet the soup is absolutely fantastic, you know beautiful, sort of stunning
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depth of flavour for the stock.
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Um and that restaurant, although it's m right out I think it was three changes of ch
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of subway from where I was staying in the centre, long, long, long way out, um that
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had when we got there at a eleven thirty there was already a long queue for the
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twelve o'clock opening.
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Um so every day it's completely you can't book, you know, it's completely full.
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Um and so yeah, there's a lot of people who are very obsessed with food in Japan and
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that includes restaurateurs, but and that that means there's enough but also diners,
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there's enough people who are interested in food.
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Do we be be prepared to spend some money, obviously not very much in his case, maybe
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ten pounds, but but in the case of very fine dining as well, people will spend, you
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know, hundreds of pounds on on a meal.
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Um and that means that the restaurateurs and the chefs can actually um demand very
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very high-grade produce.
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That means the farmers, they know they've got a market to produce very high-grade
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produce.
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They can take care of the Uh of their of their cattle whatever, they can take care
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of their fruit and vegetables uh properly um because they know there's enough people
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who will actually you know pay for it at the end of the day.
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So there's a whole sort of ecosystem which supports a very very strong a very very
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high quality of uh food.
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Sure, as you were talking about that uh waku beef, my m taste buds started to
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celebrate that.
22:00
Oh my word, the food is good.
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The thing is in Japan that, like you were saying, even the tiniest of tiny little
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random places, you can walk into one of those, and we did, we didn't always have it
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planned, sometimes we the kids were getting really hungry and it was like we have to
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eat immediately.
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Turn into whatever place and wow, it's it's I think it's it's not just a fine
22:20
dining, but any restaurant, because the standard is so elevated, you can't really
22:25
afford to have a bad restaurant, because everyone is on that level.
22:29
So it keeps you on that level.
22:30
It's like surround yourself by good people, surround yourself with good food, fresh
22:35
produce, raise the standard across the whole country and you've got what Japan has,
22:39
which is incredible.
22:40
Yeah yeah, it's a standard at all levels.
22:42
That's the thing that's impressive.
22:43
It's it's although I'm sure there are some bad restaurants somewhere in Japan, you
22:48
have to actually hunt them out.
22:50
Uh whereas whereas you know it's much more difficult to to find good restaurants in
22:54
most countries, whereas in Japan it's hard to find a bad one.
22:57
Yeah, you know in a in England we do have in in the UK we've got brilliant
23:01
restaurants, I mean we we really do, we've got such an amazing variety.
23:07
Um you can have whatever you want from wherever you want and across all price ranges.
23:11
The thing for me though is for when you're travelling, you know, you're on a
23:16
highway, you need to stop and eat.
23:18
I just wish we had what Japan has which is, an you know, a healthy ramen place.
23:22
We can go fresh vegetables, you've got the stock, lovely healthy, wholesome dinner.
23:28
Why does it have to be sandwiches and some sort of pie and some sort of unhealthy thing?
23:34
Why can't it be That's standard.
23:37
Why, Andy?
23:38
Well, I mean, you know, different countries have got I've do I've got different
23:41
I mean if you go to if if you have a have a look online at a Japanese school dinner,
23:41
cultures.
23:47
school school meal, school lunch, whatever you wanna call it.
23:51
Um, you'll see that they eat, you know, really really well.
23:54
I mean they yeah, there's fresh vegetables that are produced, there's you know,
23:57
fresh rice, you get sort, of you know, fish, meat.
24:00
I mean it's it's nothing that things are not coming out of Turkey twizzler packs,
24:04
you know, in Japanese schools.
24:06
So even from the beginning there's this whole culture of respecting food, caring
24:12
deeply about seasonality.
24:13
Um that's one of the things you noticed in Japan.
24:15
The first time I went to Japan I couldn't believe that I'd go to a series of
24:19
restaurants.
24:20
And would get, you know, even though they're quite different restaurants, you'd get
24:24
essentially the same ingredients night after night prepared in very different ways.
24:28
And I was curious, and this is strange, you know, um I was talking to one of the
24:32
restaurant chefs and he said no no no, he says this is because we do this this week
24:37
and next week, this is when this particular fish is at its best.
24:40
And so everybody will serve it that week.
24:42
You know, next week it'll be a different thing.
24:44
In fact, in fact, if this particular fish, it was an ayu uh sweet fish, um he said
24:49
in fact this this this week we are using it from this particular lake.
24:54
Um but next week we're gonna use it from a different lake, 'cause it'll be better
24:56
And and th there is uh there are twenty six micro-seasons in Japan, basically what a
24:56
that week.
25:01
couple of weeks each.
25:02
And and people tend to sort of follow those.
25:04
Now that level of kind of seasonality just doesn't exist any really anywhere else
25:09
and certainly not in the UK.
25:10
Um so yes, we uh we kinda know that we get asparagus in the spring or something
25:13
where that and tomato's in the summer.
25:16
But that's a m you know, it's not much more than that.
25:18
But in Japan there's this in enormous l depth of knowledge that it's not just
25:21
amongst chefs, but amongst You know, large numbers of people in the population.
25:26
So so you have to have that depth of food culture that that will that will support,
25:31
um you know, you know, high high quality fresh um produce.
25:34
And you know, most countries don't have that.
25:37
This is the beauty about travel as well, how it opens up your mind to the different
25:42
ways that you can look at food, treat food, have respect for food, that it goes
25:47
across the whole culture and When you travel, you just your mind opens and you can
25:52
take a little bit from this country and you can take a little bit from that country
25:57
and then become what I love to call internationally minded, which is you taking the
26:02
best of what you can and and making it into something that actually creates your own
26:07
world that can be You know, amazing and on a on a on a b on a better level in a way
26:12
es especially with food.
26:14
Yeah.
26:14
I think that's it also it sorta helps yeah certainly it helps me having travelled
26:19
being lucky enough to travel quite a lot um over the years partly through my work
26:24
and and other reasons.
26:26
Um and so we you know with I've been for example I like Indian food and I've been to
26:30
India twenty four times um and so I've got I've travelled around from everywhere
26:35
from You know, not just Mumbai and Delhi and Agra, Jaipur, which is sort of standard
26:39
sort of tourist stuff, but I've been to, you know, I've been to M to Calcutta or
26:43
I've been to, you know, Bangalore and Hyderabad and Mysore and I've been to Madurai
26:48
and Chettinad and, uh you know, y a lot a lot of places you, know, Udaipur.
26:52
And well, l a lot of places.
26:54
And if you p once you've done that, you start to sort of realise how rea d how
26:58
regional the cuisine is in India.
27:00
You know, when you come back to to r review an India restaurant in the UK it, is
27:04
just gives you a different perspective, because you you kinda know how it was
27:08
supposed to taste in in Kerala, let's say.
27:10
And if you go to a Kerala restaurant, then you You know, you can see well, was that
27:14
like the rest of the stuff I had in k you know, that dish I had, that sorper tail,
27:18
for example, which is a very unusual dish in in Kerala in Goa and Kerala.
27:22
Um you know, d how did that dish compare to the one I had in Goa, you know.
27:27
And and you know, that's that sort of Gives you a different perspective than if
27:31
you've never eaten that dish before.
27:33
Okay.
27:34
So if we we break it down to these elements, you've got ingredients that we spoke
27:38
about, technical skill presentation, and then the general, you know, harmony of of
27:43
of the place.
27:43
What's the most important And where do you think most restaurants fail?
27:48
The average restaurant, let's say.
27:49
Uh I think the harmony is uh is uh is intended to be for the harmony of the of the food.
27:53
So in other words of the dish.
27:54
So in in what that's trying to get at is is um is is saying that what um you know b
27:59
some things just go together, you know, we think of strawberries and cream or
28:03
something.
28:04
Uh yeah, it's a very natural pairing.
28:06
Whereas say, lamb and raspberries are probably not so much, although you could make
28:10
an argument for it, but but whatever.
28:12
Um so what I think is is the case with this the idea of the harmony thing of the of
28:17
the dish is do the elements on the plate make sense together?
28:20
Do they create balance?
28:21
So if you've got a very rich um sort of bit dish, maybe you've got an an oily fish
28:26
or something, you know like a mackerel or or tuna, Do you do you have something
28:31
that's got some acidity or something that's uh vinegar that will give you some
28:35
balance?
28:36
If you've got some dish, some rich meat, meat dish with a big ri you know, red wine
28:41
sauce, um you know, you probably don't want to just have, you know, potatoes or
28:45
something with that.
28:46
You know, you probably want to have something green with it.
28:49
And again, you might choose to have some other element, maybe a Um a dressed salad
28:54
that's got a quite sharp dressing uh that's gonna give you a little bit of relief
28:58
from the from the richness.
29:00
So so that sort of balance, I think, is what tends to separate, you know, very good
29:05
chefs.
29:05
Um and quite often, you know, in sort of less good restaurants you'll you'll find
29:08
things that, you know, are really just quite difficult to eat because they're either
29:12
they're you know, they're they're too rich or or the other way around they're too
29:15
too bland, they haven't got enough interest.
29:17
And uh uh so I think all or they've got too many elements, you know, it's things
29:21
that just uh you know, I think a lot of uh sort of aspiring younger chefs tend to
29:26
think it's clever to put more and more and more elements on.
29:29
They think what can we improve with that dish, we'll add one more thing.
29:31
Whereas you know, if you go back to one of my favourite restaurants uh uh uh place
29:36
in the southwest of France, Uh, Michel Guérard's restaurant, uh who sadly died a few
29:41
years back.
29:42
Um but he he was noted for his particularly sort of simplified view of of of of of
29:47
cuisine.
29:48
So you'd often have dishes at Michel Guérard's restaurant which would have you know
29:52
three or four elements on the plate.
29:54
Yeah, didn't have to be six or seven or eight different clever sort of garnishes.
29:58
They were often extremely simple looking, but they were beautifully balanced and
30:02
they were perfectly cooked.
30:04
And so I think a lot of, um you know, young chefs, particularly I think in the UK
30:09
but also other countries as well, tend to over-complicate.
30:12
Um and if you make things very complicated, it makes it hard for the kitchen because
30:15
these different elements are all gonna be cooked at different times.
30:18
They're gonna be brought together.
30:19
Some of them might be cold by the time that, they've you know, assembled them.
30:23
They've, you know, maybe the fish has been sitting around.
30:25
Already on the waiting for its garnish and it and the fish is now overcooked, you
30:29
know, and so on.
30:30
So you ha you you create problems for yourself by making things too complicated.
30:33
But that's I think the most common issue to be honest with with uh up-and-coming
30:38
chefs is that they they they they make things too complicated and w what they should
30:42
perhaps consider is is just buying better ingredients and cooking them well.
30:46
Mm.
30:49
Yeah, just sort of do the do the things on the plate make sense together.
30:52
Because when you get a meal that's being cooked really badly and sometimes might
30:57
happen at home, you think, that doesn't go with that.
30:59
Why did you add this thing?
31:01
And it's it's just so wrong.
31:03
And for me the most it's one of the most upsetting things is when food is cooked wrong.
31:07
I just feel a certain kind of pain.
31:09
I think oh.
31:10
In a professional kitchen you would hope that they're go they're going to do that
31:13
most of the time.
31:14
Though you still don't always get it, so you do get, you know, overcooked, you know,
31:18
bits of meat or you get things that are grotesquely over-seasoned or they've just
31:23
forgotten to season them at all.
31:24
Um, and you know, they're you certainly do encounter, you know, technical errors, I
31:28
remember.
31:29
You know, risotto in somewhere a a famous restaurant in America, which was um which
31:33
is sister restaurant to be fair, which was just like wallpaper paste, you know, just
31:37
the texture was absolutely terrible.
31:39
So I think that but that doesn't happen too often in in professional kitchens.
31:44
Um yeah, you you generally hope the technique will be to to at least a sort of
31:47
certain level of competence.
31:50
Uh Gordon Ramsay's Kitchen Nightmares.
31:53
Well, I remember being a r yeah I. remember being in a restaurant which I think is
31:58
gone now so I can safely say this without being uh there being this place called
32:02
West Street in Covent Garden and uh there was two dishes in a row, I think there was
32:07
a pasta dish and and I forget the other dish where I put the uh fork into the pasta
32:12
And it was it was had basically become seared to the plate, 'cause I mean literally
32:16
sealed in.
32:17
So when I lift when I lifted the put the fork into the middle of the plate into one
32:22
of the bits of pasta, I could lift the entire plate off the table.
32:27
And and it happened in not just one.
32:28
But two dishes in that particular restaurant.
32:31
So the second time the the m maître d' just sort of rolled his eyes and just sort of
32:35
yeah, okay, we we we have a problem, you know, sorta.
32:38
But I mean that but that sort of stuff is is obviously pretty unusual.
32:41
I mean it's it's not not common.
32:43
What you really don't that's bad.
32:44
That is truly bad.
32:46
But I suppose the worst sin of all, I would say, is obviously food poisoning.
32:53
Yes, I mean generally I mean there are obviously hygiene inspectors in the UK and so
32:58
uh restaurants get rated you, know, one to five hygiene stars.
33:02
Um so it is Un very unusual I think to to uh end up with that.
33:08
I think you can sometimes have, you know, well-documented cases from oysters because
33:12
oysters have a big problem with uh particular uh sort of thing that affects them uh
33:17
in the in the beds.
33:18
And so um you know, the norovirus basically which which can i and because they're
33:23
often served raw, You know, that that can be an issue.
33:25
Um but I mean to be honest, apart from that, I mean it it's pretty uncommon um to to
33:30
have that experience in a restaurant.
33:32
What about tapeworm in raw fish?
33:34
Oh well, well you s it's an interesting you raise that particular thing.
33:38
So I've been to a museum in Japan called the Parasite Museum.
33:43
Um, my my wife's a medical uh doctor of medical microbiologist and uh she's actually
33:48
I've been three times 'cause she's very interested.
33:50
I w I probably wouldn't have gone three times on my own.
33:53
Um but it it's actually a museum of um it's not a large museum, it's like a like a
33:58
big house basically, um but with exhibits of all the different uh flukes and
34:03
tapeworms and all kinds of things uh that you get from um from fish.
34:08
Um particularly particularly fish.
34:10
Um yeah, there's always a lot of fish eaten in Japan.
34:12
Uh a lot of it's seen raw.
34:14
So that's that's an issue.
34:16
Um and there there are all kinds of ways you can prepare sushi that makes it safe,
34:20
but obviously people don't always get it right.
34:22
Um and um the the prize.
34:24
The exhibit is a a big cabinet with a uh just sort of rolled up in, fact 'cause it's
34:30
too big to fit in the cabinet.
34:33
It's a twenty nine feet long tapeworm that came out of a guide uh digestive system
34:38
in in Hiroshima.
34:40
Yeah, so so yeah, you you definitely get that.
34:41
And that's why In Europe and in the US um all sushi by law is frozen.
34:48
It has to be.
34:49
People often don't know this, um but it's true.
34:52
Um it is by law all sushi is has to be frozen.
34:57
Uh and that because freezing freezing kills parasites.
34:59
But that's not the case in Japan unless that's why you s still here.
35:02
It's doing issues.
35:05
Yeah, I thought it best for you not to know, you know, but uh for your trip.
35:08
But um but yeah.
35:10
Um but you say it won't really happen here.
35:15
Um no, it's not common, I might have been, you know, saying. thirteen times and I've
35:17
never had a problem.
35:18
But but I mean but it it's I presume if you had a tapeworm you would know, right?
35:22
Well, you you well you wouldn't know it's in the bey.
35:24
I mean you it'd be b I mean the some of the parasites are absolutely microscopic, so
35:28
you'd be it might g grow inside you, but I mean you'd be pr you'd be pretty unlucky
35:32
to you're pretty unlucky to do that.
35:34
But clearly there is an entire museum in Tokyo that does nothing else but show off
35:37
the parasites that uh have in have infected people.
35:43
So it's in the Meguro district of Tokyo.
35:46
I'd like to go have a look.
35:47
That is really interesting, really really interesting.
35:50
I know because my dad worked in a veterinary institute um initially before he went
35:54
into business and he would always say, you know, they they used to inspect the old
35:58
sample and check for for tapeworms and things.
36:01
Yeah, very interesting.
36:03
Okay.
36:03
Alright.
36:04
We'll move away from parasites and and go shopping.
36:07
The average person going shopping, local market, how do you know how But there are
36:12
some tips, right, to know whether you're buying good food.
36:17
For example, meat.
36:18
You don't want it to have uh a b a brownie colour.
36:21
You want it to be red.
36:22
But then you also don't want food to be dyed, so you kind of have to look at, you
36:26
know, whether it's organic and you kind of look where it came from.
36:30
How how do you judge whether what you're buying is is is good quality in.
36:34
I mean I think you've got to to a large degree rely on the sort of the p the p the
36:38
brand of shop that you're buying from.
36:40
So if yeah, if you Got to to know the particular butcher or whatever that you've,
36:44
you know, has a good reputation and been running for twenty years.
36:47
Yeah, that's usually a good thing.
36:49
I think with sort of fruit and veg you can tell a lot just by using a sense of
36:52
I mean, you know, if you you're or a sense of touch, I mean you should be able to,
36:52
smell.
36:57
you know, touch the avocado and see if it's See if too firm, if it's ready ready to
37:01
eat and so on.
37:02
And with um something like fruit, you know, often the smell gives it away.
37:05
I can remember walking th through a um uh just a simple uh local shop in in Tokyo
37:10
that was just near the hotel doing sort of fruit and veg.
37:14
They just didn't had to like a coffee shop there.
37:17
Um and we just walked into the shop and you could instantly smell the strawberries
37:22
From like a b from a long way away.
37:24
I mean from several, you know, a couple of aisles away.
37:26
And we went and bought these strawberries and they were absolutely stunning.
37:30
Um, and you know, s smell like no strawberries I've ever tasted in the UK.
37:34
Um so sometimes, you know, a sense of smell gives you a good clue that there's
37:38
something good.
37:39
Um, but I think in general, yeah, it's it's not gonna be very easy to to be sure.
37:42
So you yeah, you have to rely on on brand and reputation.
37:46
And that's why, you know, sort, of you know, mm supermarkets you, know, become
37:50
national brands and some don't.
37:52
I mean, you know, if they they could build up a c strong enough reputation for
37:55
quality, um you know, then the the you get things from there.
37:58
I mean obviously a whole there's a whole pile of independent sort of You know, f m
38:02
food shops, um the suppliers as a as an excellent one in the UK who do don't have a
38:07
shop, but they do in a delivery thing called fine and wild and they get incredibly
38:12
high high quality produce.
38:14
Yeah is just got a website.
38:16
They do they they and they'll get you the absolute best you, know, wild mushrooms,
38:21
all the absolute best sort of tuna or best the highest quality uh chicken suppliers
38:25
from France, all the best chicken Just just ha happens to come from France m it's
38:30
just it's true.
38:31
And they they they they import, the you know, the this particular one that I'm very
38:35
fond of from a guy called Arnaud Toussaint and that's the the one you get in a lot
38:39
of three-star Michelin restaurants in France.
38:43
Um if if if if they serve chicken, you know, but but if they do, that's the one
38:46
you'd see probably.
38:47
Yep.
38:48
Definitely researching them after this.
38:51
Oh, that's lovely.
38:53
Yeah, because we wanna bring a bit of that fine dining into our own homes and
38:56
elevate that standard and get that fresh food.
38:58
And I love the idea of a proper butcher.
39:01
There's the meat and it's you know what you're getting, you know what they've done
39:04
with it, you know where it's from, and also the fish guy, you know.
39:10
Um. and it's Mm-hmm.
39:10
Harder and harder to find.
39:11
But I mean uh you know, in in London there'll obviously be a fortune, you know
39:15
there's a g a good number of of high quality.
39:17
You know, as a terrific fishmonger, I go to one called the Chelsea Fishmonger, uh
39:21
which is down in sort, of well, Chelsea Pimlico in Cale Street.
39:24
Um, and that's run by gov Rex Goldsmith, who's a very well-known fishmonger, and
39:29
they do incredibly high quality produce.
39:31
And I make a hike down there actually rather than buying locally, just because the
39:36
the fish there is much better than I can get, you know, in in where I live.
39:40
You know how we just talked about sort of like food food hacks and you use your s
39:44
sense of smell and you know obviously the brand and everything it can get you to the
39:47
point sooner.
39:48
For restaurants um I think that this little tip works, which is see where local
39:53
people, the working people go for their lunch.
39:56
See who's in that restaurant, what time of day and and how many people are going in
40:01
and out.
40:02
There's a thing, for example, in Poland, um if you're driving along the roads, you
40:05
might see a lot of trucks stopping at this tiny little place, and then you think,
40:08
what are they stopping for?
40:09
And we stopped once, and they were stopping for this amazing soup cooked by again a
40:15
a an elderly lady, a huge thing.
40:17
Um and she would just serve the soup to everybody, obviously really good value.
40:21
But what soup?
40:22
I mean that another level completely understood why they were there.
40:26
I would go there every day if I could.
40:29
And have the soup cooked by this lady.
40:30
And they just know.
40:31
The locals normally know where to go and and um yeah eat, their lunch.
40:36
Yeah, that's just only one thing I have.
40:38
But I think, you know, these days you do have a a wide range of kind, of you know,
40:41
'cause 'cause obviously s if you're going somewhere you you don't you don't happen
40:45
to live in that area, then that's that's not a very easy you know, you can't just
40:48
wander wander along randomly and hope you, you know, find something.
40:51
So um but I mean there are you know, there are a lot of a lot of guides, you know,
40:55
that are about, you know, r say ranging from, you know, p sort of things like
40:58
Michelin and s websites like mine, but also through to to see if things like like
41:02
TripAdvisor and so on which, I say have to have their flaws, but their You know,
41:06
they're probably bet better than nothing, you know.
41:09
Um so so I think research is a good plan, because the standard of the restaurants
41:12
varies dramatically.
41:14
And there are a lot of places that are not probably really that good.
41:17
So you want to try to, you know, m spend your money wisely really.
41:21
W w when you walk into a restaurant and you kind of you you go in, how quickly do
41:26
you know whether This is a good place or not.
41:29
Is it the menu?
41:30
Or I think I think sometimes you get a clue, sometimes you don't really.
41:34
I mean some t I mean uh there's a restaurant where the menu uh has a like a list of
41:39
suppliers proudly set out on the front front page or the back page where it's saying
41:43
yeah we get our meat from this and fish from this and fruit and veg from this and
41:48
bread from here.
41:49
I mean that that generally It tells you that the restaurant takes some care out
41:52
where it sources its stuff.
41:54
It's not just getting it from a catering van, from breaks or whatever.
41:58
Um and um so I think that w that would usually give me a warm feeling about the
42:02
about least about the source of the ingredients.
42:05
But I think I think it it's not very easy, apart from that it's not easy to really
42:09
Uh tell until the food arrives on the plate, you mean you can write a good menu, but
42:13
it may still may n still not be particularly well made.
42:16
So I think it I think it's that's actually not easy to do.
42:20
Um y say occasionally get clues, but you know, I d I think it's difficult until the
42:23
What's your favourite dish in the whole world? food arrives. Mm-hmm.
42:26
Uh the fine dining one.
42:28
I'm not sort of talking about the at-home 'cause we're gonna get into the at-home
42:32
section after this question, but in terms of fine elegant dining, what's the best
42:36
dish for you?
42:37
Okay, well that's a really interesting question.
42:39
I mean I I think it's sort of favourite restaurants.
42:41
I mean I think individual dishes I mean there's there's a lot of things that I've
42:44
I've really enjoyed.
42:45
I mean I think Um I can say one I can t yeah um and and this is it's it's difficult.
42:51
Well uh okay, so look, I'm I'm incredibly fond of of langoustines uh was my
42:56
favourite shellfish.
42:57
So you know, one of my favourite dishes is the the langoustine à la nage at the Ritz in London.
43:03
Um I've had it many many times.
43:04
You, guess, get these very very large longest beans from Scotland, um that are
43:09
perfectly cooked very, very sweet.
43:12
Uh, it's a anage, so it's an it's anage which is a sort of essentially a herb-based
43:17
sort of buttery sauce.
43:19
Um, and it's p on a b and again, the thing about balance, it it it's on a little bed
43:23
of little tiny baby vegetables from usually from Cornwall.
43:26
And the The sauce is quite rich, um and the longest in is is obviously p you know
43:31
protein, and sweet.
43:32
So the vegetables give it uh that little bit of balance.
43:35
So the dish is you know s is they're probably their signature dish and and I I've
43:39
had it you know literally im embarrassing number of times or in certainly dozens of
43:42
times over the years.
43:44
Um and that that would that would be uh one of certainly one of my favourite things.
43:47
I mean I've certainly had many other Great dishes around the world, but but that was
43:50
something that just springs to mind just 'cause I'm particularly fond of longest
43:53
beans.
43:55
Divine and your dessert?
43:57
Um, lemon tart.
43:59
It's my my I'm I'm a very I'm, a you know, simple simple guy.
44:02
You know, I know I I can always remember the lemon tart at Nico Ladenis, who's s
44:07
sadly no longer with us.
44:08
Um but he was three-star Michelin chef in in London.
44:12
Um and there was also a very good version actually at one of the market restaurants,
44:17
um Mirabelle, um that they used to serve and uh that was I think it was originally a
44:22
Roux Brothers uh recipe.
44:23
Um but yeah, so classic lemon tart uh for me was um just you know an absolute joy
44:28
and delight.
44:29
How delicious.
44:30
I'm getting really hungry.
44:32
Okay, we're gonna go into the regular household now.
44:35
You know, you're visiting someone's house, they cook their dinners, no n we're not
44:39
gonna mention anyone specifically.
44:41
But you know, what what is the most common mistake everyday people make when they're
44:46
cooking a home?
44:46
But for guests, not for themselves necessarily, 'cause that's a bit different, but
44:50
they're having a party, dinner, What have it might be?
44:53
Uh I think it honestly is the same thing as comes to to chefs.
44:56
They they try to do something that's too too fancy and beyond their they're beyond
45:00
their capabilities, you know.
45:01
So um they'd be better off um s spending their money by buying very high quality
45:05
produce, whatever that is, could be vegetables, you know, could be, a you know, wild
45:10
mushrooms or something.
45:12
Um it doesn't have to be anything sort, of you know, big expensive steak or anything
45:15
like or caviar or anything.
45:16
It can be just, you know, really really high quality tomatoes.
45:19
I mean I had, you know, had a fantastic tomato dish the other day.
45:23
Um pretty much we're sure I'll I'll remember for a long time.
45:26
But the quality of the tomatoes was so good because they came from the Amalfi Coast
45:31
uh i imported into London.
45:32
Um and they tasted exactly like I've tasted in the Amalfi Coast.
45:36
And and they they are dazzling and they're completely unlike any tomatoes you'll
45:41
ever see in a in a supermarket or Or even a catering uh operation, you know, in the
45:47
UK they just don't exist.
45:48
Um and they they're they're just incredible.
45:50
So you're better off spending the money on on some sort, of you know, high-grade
45:54
ingredient and doing it simply, you know, I mean they say it's it's tricky, you
45:57
know, if you're not a professional cook, then you know, it's difficult to do a
46:01
dinner party, uh four, six, eight people, there's a lot of thin lot of things can go
46:05
wrong, you know, I mean um I th I th I th I th I think BEYOND is in the party, one
46:09
key thing is do something in that you can make an advance, I mean get the you know
46:13
dessert, make it in advance, it's it's in the fridge, you know, you start it, you
46:17
can probably do something something that's cold and you can have that in advance.
46:21
And then you're only worrying about the you know the the the the main the main
46:24
you're cooking it in the last minute.
46:26
Okay, can uh can you give us an ex an example now uh uh you know uh uh something you
46:30
wanna be you wanna impress, you don't want it to be a completely totally too easy
46:34
like macaroni and cheese kind of dish, but you wanna serve a starter, a main and a
46:38
dessert.
46:39
Give us an example, then what are we what are we eating and so you said cold
46:43
starter.
46:44
Well, I mean I I'm I'm I'm you know, I I sometimes make dish I like to make, which
46:48
is a you know, I I I mean it's It's a complete cheat 'cause I sta you know, it's a
46:52
Gordon Ramsay recipe, but yeah, but it's something you can make in advance.
46:56
And it's not it's uh though it's it's quite impressive, it's it takes a little bit
47:00
of time, but you can do it all in advance.
47:02
And it's a it's a sort of crab and avocado thing with a grapefruit sauce.
47:06
So you're essentially taking white crab meat, uh you're making a a kind of guacamole
47:12
from avocado, tomatoes, um and just a tiny bit of Uh sort of cay and pepper um and
47:17
you're topping it with a little micro-salad and um you can make it sort of pretty by
47:23
put uh using a little metal cone and and then putting the thing in i in layers.
47:28
So do you do so you you lift off the cone at the on on each plate and then you've
47:32
got this layer, you got a layer of crab, you got a layer avocado, you got a layer of
47:36
Um and then you just around that is this sort of grapefruit sauce which uh which
47:36
salad.
47:41
gives it because it's kinda quite sharp, um that balances the sweetness of the crab
47:45
and the richness of the avocado.
47:48
And that dish, you know, it's not a trivial dish to make, but it's it's not
47:52
difficult and just takes a little bit of time to make the guacamole really.
47:56
Um and that in advance. yeah.
48:01
Yeah, and it's done.
48:01
Yeah well, y everything yeah, you know you, can just stick it to one side or or
48:04
stick it in uh you probably haven't got room to stick it in the fridge if there's
48:08
like six people.
48:08
But but I mean you can stick it to one side, it'll be fine, for you know, for an
48:12
hour or two.
48:12
Um and and that's l you know, that's a genuinely pretty good dish, and you know,
48:16
people eat that and it looks like a a restaurant dish and you know it it tastes it
48:20
tastes good because you've got you use high quality crab you know which you bought
48:24
from this you know this you know and good fishmonger rather than from the
48:28
supermarket that kind of thing.
48:29
Yep. Amazing.
48:31
So that's your that that would be very impressive for a starter I. can just imagine
48:34
inviting my family over, they'd be like what happened to you, are you okay.
48:38
Alright so let's starter and then main.
48:40
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
48:40
Well um often when we're at home my wife doesn't eat meat so we uh she's pescetarian
48:45
so we tend to sort of f sort of fish dashes, so I'm particularly fond of sea bass.
48:50
Um so again, it's a matter of finding it from a very good fishmonger.
48:53
Um, uh ideally a bigger sea bass if you can.
48:57
Uh they t have more flavour than the sort of little ones.
49:00
Um and we all do something relatively sort of simple.
49:03
I usually make a some uh something like a m a mustard sauce as though there's a
49:07
kenholm recipe, which is uh a buttery, Sort of but mustard and herb sauce, so you
49:12
chop chives, you chop um uh coriander um and par and parsley uh and it goes in this
49:17
sort of buttery sauce with and there's just enough mustard to make it interesting.
49:22
There's a bit of uh just doesn't it doesn't matter in this case that y uses Dijon,
49:26
but it doesn't matter it could be English.
49:27
I mean this happens to be Dijon.
49:29
Um and you um you know there's there's also some fish stock which you can you know
49:33
you could either make or you can buy it from the fishmongers or whatever.
49:36
Uh there's a few other bits.
49:37
There's a bit of uh white wine vinegar and so on.
49:39
But they it but it's it's little pieces here.
49:41
But they're not they're not difficult.
49:44
You know, they just you just gotta take a little bit of time to chop the herbs is
49:47
the longest thing.
49:48
And you make that sauce, so you you can prepare all of that sauce up front except,
49:51
except for except for the butter right, You? leave the butter off and then you
49:55
finish the butter at at the end, so you finish the sauce with the butter.
49:58
And then s you see bass is very easy to cook and you just stuff it in the oven, you
50:02
know, sort of f uh yeah, you can do it pan-fry if you prefer, absolutely, whichever
50:07
you whichever is simplest to you, you know.
50:09
Um but it it c it tastes fine either way.
50:11
Um and then you maybe you have some, you know, whatever, you know, roast potatoes or
50:14
you know, peas or whatever carrots, whatever you you want to make, you know
50:17
mushrooms, whatever you want to make with that. that.
50:20
But I'm in the but it's again these things take a little bit prep to do to be
50:23
honest, I mean the you know, but it be you can do much of the prep up front, so the
50:27
sauce is is ready apart from the butter. you know can be made that that morning.
50:30
Um so you're not doing very much at the last minute.
50:33
Japanese-style almost 'cause you serve it the fish is just basically the fish.
50:37
You're not doing much to it, you're not marinating that or anything, you're just
50:40
cooking it and then the sauce is the m Not in this case.
50:43
Yeah, the sauce is the s the sauce is the thing that's gonna be yeah, although,
50:46
yeah, Japanese probably wouldn't wouldn't bother the sauce actually, they'd probably
50:49
just serve you the fish 'cause the fish would be so good, so good, uh that they
50:52
wouldn't they wouldn't yeah, yeah, no, they they they do they do as well, yeah, and
50:56
some sometimes it's true, yeah.
50:57
But that's just one, you know, a dish I've made many times, for example, you know.
51:01
Awesome.
51:01
And I've got got a secret for dessert, which is I outsource the entire thing to my
51:06
wife, who's an excellent pastry chef, so so I uh I don't Do um so she makes like,
51:10
you know, m tart tartan or summer pudding or various, you know, s It's various
51:14
things.
51:17
Um which is much well I I I have a have a have a c critical trick which is to serve
51:22
lots and lots of nice wine and that way if anything goes wrong then people don't
51:26
don't really Let's talk about wine, because um there is a there's a lovely
51:30
restaurant, it's a it's actually a one-star restaurant in Amersham.
51:34
Um. The artichoke.
51:36
Yes, Of course you know it, yes. the artichoke.
51:38
And the v the artichoke uh you'll know that the meal it's it's a very exp you know,
51:42
it's it's a it's a big process.
51:44
There's lots of different things going on.
51:44
But the the pairing of the food with the wine is just absolutely a b a b a basic
51:50
essential there.
51:51
It's it's just taken so seriously.
51:53
It's I I don't really know much about this whole field, but it's like it It works
51:57
when you're pairing these different foods together and you kind of say oh that makes
52:01
sense, I could never do it on my own, but it just all makes sense when you're in there.
52:05
How does what is all that?
52:07
Well I've done yeah, I mean you there are you can take wine exams.
52:11
I mean I there's a thing called the Wine Spirit Education Trust or WSET and which is
52:16
standard in the UK and actually It's used in many countries actually, not just the
52:21
Um you see it even in America as well sometimes. UK.
52:23
Um and there there is i i it's like all things are at different levels, so WSET one
52:29
is extremely basic, Um WSET two is probably like an ole a GCSE.
52:30
Okay.
52:34
WSET three which I I've done is probably like an A level and there you do actually have to do.
52:40
blind tasting and identify identify wines and all these you know and so
52:44
on.
52:44
And you learn you learn there's many things you learn about about m you know the the
52:48
the regions and the vineyards and the grapes.
52:50
But you also learn about wine pairing um so there's various things.
52:53
So so for example um to give you a couple of examples of wine pairing so um
52:57
something that's difficult to pair is for example s very spicy food, so say say
53:02
Indian food or Thai food.
53:03
Um, you probably um want to have sort of aromatic white wines or something like
53:08
Riesling or possibly even Gewürztraminer, or or Condrieu go particularly well with
53:13
with India food.
53:14
If you do wanna red wine, then t probably best to avoid the very big heavy tannic wine.
53:19
So you probably wanna avoid 'em, sorta Cirrus of the world.
53:22
And you might wanna go for a lighter style, like a Pinot Uh Pinot Noir.
53:26
Um that that will tend to go well with that kind of thing.
53:30
Um there's there's there's a dozen thing.
53:31
And you learn this sort of stuff on the course and then you're So let's please
53:33
there's two more I wanna ask you.
53:34
So the spicy fruit, that's a massive one.
53:37
Yeah give us four white fish.
53:40
Mm-hmm just a basic pairing, and then for s for steak, for red meat.
53:43
Yeah. Yeah.
53:43
I mean this is this is not not just for I mean for for um for you know white fish, I
53:48
mean the classic.
53:49
You know, pairing will be chardonnay.
53:50
So if you can afford it, you know, fine white burgundy, and if you can't afford it,
53:54
you get a very good chardonnay from South Africa or from Australia.
53:58
Um, and you know, that is a a very classic sort of pairing.
54:01
Um there are many other things that work extremely well.
54:04
But you know, chardonnay is the the classic with with with that.
54:09
Um the um with um steak, I mean, you know, again it's little bit to taste, um but
54:13
you know, Typically people would serve a sort of a a b a b a b bigger red wine, like
54:18
a m you know cabinets, over and on or style or b border blend which which is
54:23
includes cabinets over and on, but includes other things like Merlot or or maybe
54:27
entirely Merlot.
54:28
Um and um or you could indeed have a a a Syrah uh or Shiraz, which is the same
54:34
thing.
54:34
Um so Syrah from the Rhone Valley or it's called Shiraz if, it's you know, from
54:38
Australia, but it's the same grape.
54:40
Um and though those typically go well with with with steaks.
54:43
And for uh and you would have a glass of that, it's just sensible drinking, it's
54:48
just to pair it with a food, so you're you're doing something to the palate and
54:52
you're consuming together so that it's just elevating that food, right.
54:57
That's just the whole point. Never said sensible, but but But yeah.
54:59
And then think about your dessert too, 'cause that's that's a whole world of dessert
55:03
wines, and that's my favourite style of wine.
55:06
So no no, I mean that's a different thing again.
55:09
So um no, dessert wines are sort of sweet wines, there's two kinds.
55:13
So they're they're the vast majority of the cheaper wines are um fortified.
55:18
So they they basically take the um the uh fermentation procuss process part way
55:24
through and they um kill kill the yeast.
55:26
Um and that it's only half kind, of you know, developed.
55:30
So so there's still quite a lot of sweetness there.
55:33
Um and that's how you make well, for example how you make brandy, but that's also
55:38
how you make um a lot of um uh a lot of t s cheaper dessert wines.
55:42
Um the the the very high quality dessert wines um are affected by a A particular
55:47
well there's two ways actually w within that there's two ways.
55:51
There's late harvest uh which is where you get some level of sweetness.
55:54
So something like the Klein uh Klein Constantia Vin de Constance from South Africa,
55:59
which was Napoleon's favourite wine.
56:00
That's a a late harvest muscat.
56:02
Um but the the really top ones um how are affected by a g uh g um a fungus, uh the
56:08
grapes are attacked by a particular fungus called Botrytis cineria.
56:12
Or noble rot.
56:13
And you only get this in certain circumstances.
56:16
You need basically a a river, you need a hot summer, and you need fog.
56:20
And if you have those circumstances, then you'll get um ev pretty reliably you'd be
56:26
tried a cineria.
56:27
So you get that in Sauternes, in France and Barsac, you get it in Tokaji in uh
56:31
Hungary, which I've spent some time um there with the best best sweet wine maker
56:36
there, a guy called István Szepsy.
56:39
And they have they have the perfect um conditions for uh proprietors and that's
56:43
actually the very first place where um the the sweet wines were were kind of
56:48
discovered or made because they they just happened naturally essentially.
56:52
Um but over the years people learned how to kind of take advantage of that.
56:55
So the very top ones that you hear about like Château d'Yquem from from Sauternes,
57:00
that that's a botrytis affected um wine.
57:03
And and and the tock eyes, the great tock eyes like uh um um as oosensia and asensia
57:08
and and uh others.
57:09
Um these are also botrytis affected and and these are some of the great Dessert
57:12
great, wise, the world.
57:13
Some of them could be, you know, e exceptionally expensive.
57:16
I mean hundreds and hundreds of pounds, even a thousand pounds a bottle for for a
57:20
essentia, for a Hungary, for example.
57:22
And um you can certainly spend hundreds of pounds on Château d'Yquem, that's for sure.
57:28
Um.
57:29
Yeah, yeah, you got a absolutely it's um it's um it's well, called noble rot.
57:33
It's um it's um it's a it's a little little gift from uh from nature.
57:38
Un unbelievable.
57:40
Never I n I never could have imagined that.
57:42
I'm gonna veer off to a very different topic now.
57:45
AI and food.
57:46
Mm-hmm.
57:47
Okay.
57:47
So um even probably at um most of my people who read my website were not aware that
57:52
I I work in technology and I have done b the sort of the way that I can pay for my
57:56
restaurant bills.
57:57
I'm certainly aware because we know that you're very analytical data driven.
58:03
Data-driven man, and it helps you when it comes to food, analysing, wines, all these
58:07
So it's made you even better with the way that you critique food. things.
58:12
Yeah. Um I think it's useful.
58:13
Um I've I had a uh book uh published on AI uh back in in early twenty twenty six.
58:19
I'm actually just in the process of finishing my second book on AI which will come
58:23
out in January twenty twenty seven called, The Hallucination Game.
58:27
Um which will be available from Amazon and all good uh all good all good online
58:31
stores.
58:32
Um I mean essentially uh that's that stems from, my you know, my my other life.
58:36
I mean I think uh the cross-over between AI and food i is is, you know, it may s
58:41
sort of seem pretty p tricky, is not obvious, but in in certainly um in the wine
58:46
industry, for example, there is there is a number of of areas where AI is used, for
58:51
example to try to detect counterfeit bottles um is one example.
58:55
Um in in the food industry um it's a little bit less obvious, but you you certainly
59:00
have um um people have tried designing a menu with AI that usually has not worked
59:05
out well, I have to say, but you you can sort of try it.
59:11
Um the AAI or large language models, which is what most people tend to think about
59:15
as AI these days, um you know, are very creative things.
59:18
So so uh they they you know they in theory could give you ideas if you're a p chef
59:23
and you're struggling for a new you know, what do we do for the p some uh s for the
59:28
autumn season or something.
59:29
You know, of course you should probably know the answer to that, but if you don't,
59:33
then you could use an LLM to kinda help you come up with a brainstorm some ideas, I
59:37
mean that that kind of thing.
59:39
Um uh yeah there were other uses uh more subtle uses of AI and sort of robotics
59:45
which generally doesn't affect.
59:47
Restaurants very much, but you have got sort of m some use of robots in restaurants
59:53
in Japan to do sort of chopping um and in some cases even making a dish.
59:58
Uh these are v to be honest pretty, experimental kind of things at this stage.
1:00:01
You know humanoid, robots don't really W work outside of constrained environments uh
1:00:06
at the moment.
1:00:08
I mean they might do in five or ten years, but at the moment they'd look great on
1:00:12
demos, but they they tend to do strange things when they encounter such
1:00:16
circumstances where they're not familiar.
1:00:19
Um so I think r realistically you're not gonna see too much in the way of robotics
1:00:23
in in kitchens outside of experiments for for a while.
1:00:27
Um uh so we I think the w probably w the word of wine is probably Slightly easier.
1:00:32
There's some uh things, some vinyard management techniques.
1:00:35
If you take pictures using a drone of your vineyard, you can use AI to spot early
1:00:41
spot issues with uh disease uh in the crop because they can analyse all the imagery
1:00:46
and uh AI is incredibly good at image uh recognition and image analysis.
1:00:50
And so there's a number of vineyards around the world that use AIs to help them with
1:00:54
their um their p their v their vinyard management basically.
1:00:57
So there were some a few examples like that.
1:01:00
Okay.
1:01:01
So where where are you planning to eat at next?
1:01:04
Can you tell us what what's your food plan, food travel plan?
1:01:09
Actually I haven't yeah I haven't got anything dramatic sort of lined up.
1:01:12
Um the um got a few friends coming to stay for the next few days, so that we'll just
1:01:16
be cooking at home.
1:01:17
Um I I do have some some restaurants brought up ahead.
1:01:19
I mean I tend not to really wanna name ones in advance because I Uh you don't wanna
1:01:24
tell you don't wanna tell them you're coming.
1:01:28
They'll step up their game.
1:01:29
But I'm certainly inspired by you to to travel based on more on food, on on visiting
1:01:34
these incredible places that have really earned earned their stripes that have
1:01:38
worked hard to to To attain that highest level, I mean like uh like I said to you
1:01:43
that there's n few things in the world as good as eating great food with people that
1:01:48
you'd love to be around as And so if you want a f a free tip and you've got some
1:01:53
spare money, 'cause it's it's you know, it it it there were two two three-star
1:01:57
restaurant Michelin restaurants which I'm. fond of what happened to be very close to each other.
1:02:03
So if you take a uh and they're they're and they'll surprise you, okay.
1:02:06
So if you take a a flight to Luxembourg, uh which is you can get from, you know,
1:02:11
from the London city airport or or anything from Heathrow as well, um you go to
1:02:16
there and you can either take a a taxi or in fact a a bus, because all buses in
1:02:21
Luxembourg are free, um right to to the border uh of Germany, which is about forty
1:02:25
minutes, something like forty five minutes.
1:02:28
Um then there's a restaurant there.
1:02:30
Uh it's called Victor's Fine Dining with a chef called Christian Bau, who's had uh
1:02:33
three Michelin stars since two thousand and five.
1:02:36
And he's b I would say one of the b you know the best restaurants one of the res
1:02:41
chefs in the world.
1:02:42
Uh he's sufficiently confident about his stars.
1:02:44
He's got three stars tattooed on his arm.
1:02:46
So I hope I hope he never hope he never never loses him.
1:02:50
Yeah, absolutely.
1:02:50
And then and then nearby Uh only about half an hour or so from there by taxi is a
1:02:55
restaurant called Waldhotel Sonnora.
1:02:58
Um uh that's uh by uh that's got a terrific chef called Clemens Rambichler.
1:03:03
And that does much more classical food, so so Christian Bau's mo little bit more
1:03:08
modern, lot of Japanese touches.
1:03:10
Um, whereas um Waldhotel Sonnora is much more classical, more like the sort of stuff
1:03:14
you see at the Ritz or something, a bit more classical of French, lots, of you know,
1:03:18
beautiful sauces, that kind of thing.
1:03:19
And that that's probably the best classical restaurant i in the world in terms of
1:03:23
classical French.
1:03:24
Um, so those two restaurants are literally, you know, thirty th I mean, forty minutes on a.
1:03:29
taxi depending on the traffic from each other and you they both have
1:03:33
rooms, you can stay at um you know, so if you really wanna, you know, splurge, you
1:03:37
know, um do you th and and the irony is that the the price of the menus there is
1:03:41
significantly less than in Paris or indeed in in in equivalent in London.
1:03:46
And they also the w the wine list are real bargains.
1:03:48
So there's a t there's a ton of fantastic So the German Riesling uh and and many
1:03:53
other wines of course, but there's lots and lots of genuine bargains.
1:03:57
Some wines are actually below the retail price 'cause they bought them, you know,
1:04:00
ten, fifteen years ago and they haven't marked them up.
1:04:03
So you can have, you know, tremendous food in these restaurants, but also you can
1:04:07
afford to drink relatively well, which you can't do in London or Paris or not without.
1:04:12
Great difficulty.
1:04:13
Sure, I love Luxembourg.
1:04:14
I once actually cycled from Luxembourg to the border to Germany.
1:04:18
I cycled it was a long cycle.
1:04:19
I was very hungry, but by then I was so tired all I could think about eating and
1:04:23
having I just couldn't go to all the trouble was a regular pizza.
1:04:26
So which tasted so good after all that exercise.
1:04:31
So um there are basic comforts that we all returned to.
1:04:34
But um yeah, it's been super inspirational, um I love the idea of basing travel
1:04:40
around food, and I I'm gonna make that more of a thing, I think, in my life.
1:04:45
So you've you've definitely inspired me.
1:04:46
I'm sure you've inspired our viewers to elevating their their food standards.
1:04:51
And um I'm actually really hungry now.
1:04:53
So um I'm gonna go get something to eat after all that food talk.
1:04:57
But it's been fantastic having you on.
1:04:59
Thank you for sharing all of your insights with us.
1:05:02
Thank you very much indeed.
1:05:03
Thank you for having me on.