Latest / WOC and Allies: Business and Career Realtalk with Elaine Lou Cartas / 110: How EMDR Therapy HEALED Me (& why you might need it too) with Jennifer Oh, LCSW

Transcript

110: How EMDR Therapy HEALED Me (& why you might need it too) with Jennifer Oh, LCSW · WOC and Allies: Business and Career Realtalk with Elaine Lou Cartas

0:00
SPEAKER_00: I remember seeing some of my childhood friends last year, and one of them said, Oh wow, you're not so loud anymore.
0:07
SPEAKER_00: And my response was, I know therapy.
0:10
SPEAKER_00: I used to be reactive and emotional when I was younger, and not, I'm not just talking about my childhood.
0:16
SPEAKER_00: I'm talking about me in my 20s.
0:18
SPEAKER_00: And I started going to therapy when I was in college because it was quote unquote free part of my tuition.
0:24
SPEAKER_00: And then I was just tired of talking about my problems and issues with my friends because they're so tired of me.
0:30
SPEAKER_00: And I was also tired of talking about the same problems and seeing it continue to happen, even though I was going to therapy.
0:40
SPEAKER_00: And one of my therapists said, yes, I've had multiple, talked about, hey, you should check out EMDR.
0:46
SPEAKER_00: It actually heals trauma.
0:48
SPEAKER_00: And I was like, sign me up.
0:51
SPEAKER_00: So in this episode, I actually interviewed one of my business coaching clients who happens to be an EMDR therapist.
1:00
SPEAKER_00: And to be clear, she's not my therapist.
1:03
SPEAKER_00: We talked about therapy and EMDRs specifically.
1:06
SPEAKER_00: I loved this episode because we go behind the science in it.
1:10
SPEAKER_00: I even get personal and even talk about my own things that I've had to work through.
1:15
SPEAKER_00: So if you're nosy about me and you want the gossip, then you can listen to this episode.
1:21
SPEAKER_00: So we're going to drop the beat.
1:25
SPEAKER_00: Hey, I'm Elaine Lu Carthas.
1:27
SPEAKER_00: I'm a business and career coach for women of color and allies.
1:31
SPEAKER_00: Elaine Weakley awarded me the number one thought leader, and Apple News named me one of the top five business coaches.
1:39
SPEAKER_00: Done doing the most as a woman of color or ally, and you want to create your own definition of success and happiness?
1:48
SPEAKER_00: Well, grab your coffee tea or boba and let's do some business and career real talk.
2:05
SPEAKER_00: I even asked my own therapist, hey, can you come on?
2:08
SPEAKER_00: But then, you know, ethics, obviously, I can't.
2:12
SPEAKER_00: The great news is I have a client who does EMDR therapy.
2:16
SPEAKER_00: I'm like, Jennifer, please talk to me about it or talk to us about it.
2:19
SPEAKER_00: But I also know Jennifer does other modalities.
2:21
SPEAKER_00: But Jennifer is a therapist for Asian American women based in Los Angeles.
2:28
SPEAKER_00: And she uses tools like EMDR, DBT, and others to help her clients.
2:34
SPEAKER_00: Jennifer sees her clients both in person and virtually and has an amazing team that she's growing.
2:40
SPEAKER_01: Jennifer, welcome.
2:42
SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much.
2:43
SPEAKER_01: I'm excited to be here to talk about my favorite modality, EMDR.
2:48
SPEAKER_01: So yeah.
2:49
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, well, I'd love our listeners to know more about you, how you got into therapy, what made you choose EMDR as one of your modalities?
2:57
SPEAKER_00: Because I wanted to be a therapist and then I started going to therapy in college because it was free, quote, free with our tuition.
3:05
SPEAKER_00: I was like, I am fucking crazy.
3:07
SPEAKER_00: I can't.
3:08
SPEAKER_00: Like if I'm crazy, how am I supposed to deal with other people?
3:11
SPEAKER_00: So, like, hats off to you for doing this work.
3:13
SPEAKER_00: And I'm very grateful for my own therapists.
3:15
SPEAKER_00: So, how did you get into it and made you decide I'm gonna keep this because I know I'm crazy and everyone else is too?
3:21
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's crazy that you knew about it in college.
3:23
SPEAKER_01: I didn't even know therapy existed, to be honest.
3:26
SPEAKER_01: I think I was in a college student trying to figure out what I wanted to do.
3:30
SPEAKER_01: I knew that I wanted to do something related to helping professions.
3:34
SPEAKER_01: So I first started out being a nurse and I found out about bedside nursing, which is just sitting with the patients and talking about maybe some of the health issues that they might be going through.
3:43
SPEAKER_01: And so I was like, oh, I really am curious about this.
3:47
SPEAKER_01: I mean, the biggest point for me was I went on a mission trip with my church, and I had the opportunity to kind of speak with very young children who were living in very low-income areas, very high conflict areas.
4:02
SPEAKER_01: And one of them just shared with me their whole life story, a lot of trauma in it.
4:07
SPEAKER_01: And she was only seven, and I remember thinking, this girl had, I feel like she experienced so much more than me, and I was 20.
4:15
SPEAKER_01: And so I was really drawn to the story that she was telling.
4:20
SPEAKER_01: And I remember sitting there thinking, I think this is exactly what I want to do.
4:24
SPEAKER_01: And so I started researching, started talking to professors, and they basically told me this is this is what a therapy or a therapist does.
4:31
SPEAKER_01: So I said, great, sign me up.
4:33
SPEAKER_01: I switched my major.
4:35
SPEAKER_01: And since then, I am on the road, and every day I am still enjoying, I still have so much passion for it, and I'm really glad to be in this position walking with people.
4:48
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and especially like since post-2020.
4:52
SPEAKER_00: I don't need to explain everything that has happened in this decade of everything that we have gone through.
4:57
SPEAKER_00: And going back to my story, like I I did talk therapy, right?
5:01
SPEAKER_00: Cognitive behavioral.
5:02
SPEAKER_00: And I don't think a lot of people realize this.
5:04
SPEAKER_00: There's a lot of tools, modalities of what you could do in therapy to heal.
5:09
SPEAKER_00: So I would be talking, and I know it kind of got to a point, maybe in my mid-20s, like, I'm done talking about this.
5:15
SPEAKER_00: Like, I need this stuff to be gone or healed.
5:19
SPEAKER_00: And my therapist at the time said, you should look into EMDR therapy.
5:24
SPEAKER_00: I'm like, wait, what is that?
5:25
SPEAKER_00: Like, it's like a mind-body connection, it really heals trauma.
5:30
SPEAKER_00: And as you shared, but I don't do it.
5:32
SPEAKER_00: You should go find another therapist to do it.
5:34
SPEAKER_00: So I would love for you to share, you know, what is EMDR therapy and how is it different from others?
5:40
SPEAKER_00: Why did you even choose to because you have to be certified too?
5:43
SPEAKER_00: Like on top of grad school, like when you learn these different modalities, you have to take time and spend money to do these certifications.
5:51
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
5:52
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I actually first heard about EMDR in grad school when I was doing a project on the impact of trauma from generation to generation.
6:02
SPEAKER_01: And everybody knows CBT.
6:04
SPEAKER_01: There's a lot of even trauma.
6:06
SPEAKER_00: And what's CBT, by the way?
6:07
SPEAKER_00: Because some people might not know this.
6:09
SPEAKER_00: Like there might be some listeners who I've been considering therapy, but I don't know about it.
6:14
SPEAKER_00: So yeah, talk about CBT and then EMDR and all the all the alphabet of therapy.
6:21
SPEAKER_01: So CBT stands for cognitive behavioral therapy, and it really focuses on using cognitive restructuring, meaning what can we do to change the way that we are thinking about ourselves.
6:34
SPEAKER_01: So it's a lot of challenging negative beliefs, identifying the relationship between these thoughts with feelings and behavior.
6:41
SPEAKER_01: So it is it is considered the gold standard oftentimes in therapy.
6:46
SPEAKER_01: It's used and it's been adapted to all different types of models.
6:49
SPEAKER_01: And so CBT is also, you could use it in trauma.
6:54
SPEAKER_01: But I for me, when I was starting to do my project, I'm like, everyone knows CBT.
6:57
SPEAKER_01: Is there something else that people can do to help trauma?
7:01
SPEAKER_01: And I found research on EMDR, and EMDR stands for eye movement, reprocessing, desensitization.
7:08
SPEAKER_01: It's such a long word, but that focuses on more of your somatic, your body, and also accessing the memories.
7:18
SPEAKER_01: And so that modality was essentially discovered by Francine Shapiro.
7:23
SPEAKER_01: She mainly used it on veterans who were experiencing very traumatic memories, flashbacks, and it was doing really well.
7:30
SPEAKER_01: So I remember utilizing that and I said, this is what I want to do when I graduate, right?
7:36
SPEAKER_01: So after I got licensed, that's something that I had to get trained in.
7:40
SPEAKER_01: But yeah, EMBR is really different.
7:43
SPEAKER_01: It uses bilateral eye movements and it helps you to go back to maybe some of the memories and help reprocess them.
7:51
SPEAKER_01: Whereas talk therapy, like CBT, you just talk about the event over and over again, maybe some of the thoughts that come up and you challenge it.
7:59
SPEAKER_01: And so it's it's different because EMDR is less talking and it's more focusing on allowing our brain to do its own thing.
8:10
SPEAKER_00: I I want to like share even in my personal story, because I I was done.
8:14
SPEAKER_00: I'm like, I'm done talking about this.
8:16
SPEAKER_00: I know what thought process I need to change.
8:18
SPEAKER_00: And then, you know, you get to points in your adult life where you get triggered and you have that same trauma response to when you're a child.
8:27
SPEAKER_00: And so, so to kind of give an idea, someone explain this, and you can validate or edit this, Jennifer, because you are the expert here, not me.
8:35
SPEAKER_00: I am traumatized of life.
8:38
SPEAKER_00: And and so someone explained to me, like, let's say a traumatic event happens in your childhood.
8:44
SPEAKER_00: I always like giving the very simple example of this actually happened to me.
8:48
SPEAKER_00: My grandma had hot water in the cup, right?
8:51
SPEAKER_00: And she put it away.
8:53
SPEAKER_00: And my grandma told me when I was like three, don't touch it.
8:56
SPEAKER_00: What do you do when you're a kid?
8:58
SPEAKER_00: I touched it, and then the water fell over, and then I had like third degree burns, right?
9:02
SPEAKER_00: Oh man.
9:03
SPEAKER_00: And she was like yelling at me, but other family members were yelling at me.
9:07
SPEAKER_00: And so what's interesting is when I get yelled at as an adult, like I freeze and I get into fight mode.
9:14
SPEAKER_00: And I would have to work, and like I would always not necessarily that that specific memory, but other memories similar to it in my childhood, would have to process that in CBT just talking about it.
9:27
SPEAKER_00: But what happens with trauma, someone explained it like it's like a cut or a bruise in your brain.
9:33
SPEAKER_00: So trauma gets stored there.
9:35
SPEAKER_00: So anything kind of similar to a trigger point in adult lifehood would go back to your past of how you would feel.
9:40
SPEAKER_00: So I get that freeze and fight mode.
9:43
SPEAKER_00: But then how do you heal it?
9:44
SPEAKER_00: Like, how do you make sure when you get triggered in adulthood, you don't go back to that and someone explained to me EMDR?
9:51
SPEAKER_00: You go back to that, those memories, and you're healing it kind of like a steering pot.
9:55
SPEAKER_00: So that when you do get triggered in a similar situation because you can't control your future, you don't get into that mode again.
10:03
SPEAKER_00: And you can work through it.
10:04
SPEAKER_00: Like it's so fascinating because when I catch myself, I'm like, oh, it's happening.
10:10
SPEAKER_00: Like real life story.
10:11
SPEAKER_00: I got into this happened like a week ago.
10:14
SPEAKER_00: Me and my boyfriend got into a miscommunication and I self-flight mode so strong.
10:19
SPEAKER_00: Like, okay, what do I do to need to self-regulate?
10:22
SPEAKER_00: I need to walk outside, I need to go speed walk and use this energy there.
10:24
SPEAKER_00: But I caught myself and I don't think I would have been able to do that if I didn't do the work from EMDR.
10:30
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
10:30
SPEAKER_01: So you brought a lot of awareness to maybe the way that you were responding.
10:35
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I had to do breathing exercises, like deep.
10:40
SPEAKER_00: I I knew what tools I had to do for self-regulation.
10:43
SPEAKER_00: I had to take myself out of the situation, like physically.
10:47
SPEAKER_00: And I share that because I, if I didn't do the work, I think I would have done fight mode.
10:52
SPEAKER_00: And also, I kind of want to use this podcast episode to apologize to all the men I used to date because I didn't know how to self-regulate.
11:01
SPEAKER_02: I was in my heart era.
11:03
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
11:06
SPEAKER_00: I don't know if this helps anyone.
11:07
SPEAKER_00: Anything you want to add to that, Jennifer?
11:09
SPEAKER_00: Because I know a lot of our listeners love hearing stories so they kind of understand rather than just at the end.
11:14
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
11:15
SPEAKER_01: So I also like to use an example of imagine your brain being really unorganized.
11:21
SPEAKER_01: You have a room in your brain that feels messy in there, but EMDR just comes, closes the door, and then when you open it, everything is just organized.
11:30
SPEAKER_01: Everything is just clean.
11:32
SPEAKER_01: But we don't really know what happened there.
11:34
SPEAKER_01: Our brain just is it, our brain has the ability to heal itself, right?
11:39
SPEAKER_01: And so EMDR essentially accesses that natural part and it organizes for you.
11:46
SPEAKER_01: So trauma is kind of like a raw form, it gets stuck because it's just the experience, the emotions that are there, but EMDR just helps to organize those fragmented parts a little bit.
11:58
SPEAKER_01: I personally also have an experience when I was doing the EMDR therapy.
12:02
SPEAKER_00: Where you're the client, right?
12:04
SPEAKER_01: Yes, where I was the client and you hired a therapist.
12:06
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
12:07
SPEAKER_01: So the thing that I did was really silly, but I had a phobia actually of zombies.
12:12
SPEAKER_01: When I was younger, I would watch zombie movies all the time.
12:17
SPEAKER_01: And then in my 20s and my 30s, I just could not be anything zombie related.
12:22
SPEAKER_01: Halloween was really freaky for me.
12:24
SPEAKER_01: I had to like stay inside.
12:25
SPEAKER_01: I had to try to like turn off the radio or even not even look outside because I was scared of seeing ads, right?
12:31
SPEAKER_01: And it would cause this like emotional response.
12:33
SPEAKER_01: So when I did the EMDR, it actually the therapist was able to help me track when did that start and what memory caused it.
12:42
SPEAKER_01: And it was actually when I was a nursing student, I had gone into an office and there were, you know, cadavers there.
12:50
SPEAKER_01: And I think I was really shocked to see that.
12:53
SPEAKER_01: And my brain just decided in that moment I'm unsafe.
12:57
SPEAKER_01: And so every time I see something like that, it triggered a memory that I would I didn't really know until I started doing EMDR myself.
13:05
SPEAKER_01: And now I'm good, I can watch, I can look at it and not feeling scared about it at all.
13:10
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's that's interesting.
13:13
SPEAKER_00: That happened, and then you're able to do that.
13:16
SPEAKER_00: I just and I also want to share with folks, I'm not just doing this episode because I've undergone through EMDR.
13:22
SPEAKER_00: When I have obviously my relationships with my own coaching clients, because they feel safe with me, they share very traumatic experiences.
13:31
SPEAKER_00: And ethically for me, I can't support them if there are blocks.
13:36
SPEAKER_00: Like I need to refer them to therapists like Jennifer or someone else that might be a better fit, just ethically for me as a coach.
13:46
SPEAKER_00: And the response I usually get, I tried therapy.
13:49
SPEAKER_00: I'm done talking about it.
13:51
SPEAKER_00: Because so often I think people have the perception with therapy, you need to understand why did I think that way?
13:57
SPEAKER_00: Why do I feel this way?
13:59
SPEAKER_00: With EMDR, you don't need to answer those questions, like, let's just heal this shit, man.
14:03
SPEAKER_00: Like I'm done.
14:04
SPEAKER_00: Like, let's heal it.
14:06
SPEAKER_00: And so every single time I have actually referred my clients to work with an EMDR therapist, they're like, that changed my life.
14:14
SPEAKER_00: In the and and they've undergone so much traumatic experiences, which I will not share because of confidentiality.
14:22
SPEAKER_00: That's why I'm such a huge proponent of it.
14:24
SPEAKER_00: I'm I know people will be curious, but what what is EMDR EMDR most affected with in terms of issues, conditions, or traumatic experiences?
14:34
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so EMDR is research heavily with trauma.
14:39
SPEAKER_01: So it could be a single incident trauma, which you know.
14:43
SPEAKER_00: And define trauma.
14:44
SPEAKER_00: I mean, I know that we know what it is, but like let's go back to basics.
14:47
SPEAKER_00: What is trauma?
14:49
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, trauma is a emotional, psychological, or even sometimes physiological response to an event or an experience that overwhelms somebody's ability to cope.
15:02
SPEAKER_01: So for some people, some incidents might not be considered trauma.
15:07
SPEAKER_01: For some, it could be considered trauma.
15:08
SPEAKER_01: It just depends on their ability to cope with that moment.
15:11
SPEAKER_01: And if it feels really overwhelming, then they could start to identify as trauma.
15:16
SPEAKER_01: And there are different types of trauma.
15:17
SPEAKER_01: There's you know, small, like acute traumas.
15:20
SPEAKER_01: These are single distressing events.
15:21
SPEAKER_01: So, for example, like a car accident, somebody could label that as trauma.
15:27
SPEAKER_01: There's also chronic trauma or complex trauma as somebody who's experienced long periods of trauma for their whole lives.
15:35
SPEAKER_01: And that looks like childhood experiences or maybe interpersonal relationships or bullying, something that lasts for more than you know, a few months that they're experiencing can be complex.
15:48
SPEAKER_01: So there's also vicarious trauma.
15:51
SPEAKER_01: I mean, it's when people hear about trauma, they just kind of start to think that that's their own.
15:56
SPEAKER_01: And then also there's intergenerational trauma where it the trauma is passed down from generation to generation.
16:03
SPEAKER_01: And so EMDR is most effective with trauma, single, complex, all of these, as well as anxiety, depression, phobias, uh grief.
16:14
SPEAKER_01: If anyone has any negative, strong core beliefs about themselves, EMDR is very helpful, or any somatic issues or chronic pain.
16:23
SPEAKER_01: And there's just more and more research about how we can start to adapt EMDR to some of these experiences, but those are kind of the main research areas.
16:34
SPEAKER_00: I'm sure you've heard this.
16:36
SPEAKER_00: I've heard this so many times from my clients or even friends when I talk about therapy.
16:41
SPEAKER_00: Help me answer that, but I haven't gone through something traumatic, like a car accident being abused.
16:48
SPEAKER_00: So I don't need therapy, but then they're tense, but they acknowledge that there's some form of block, whether it's anxiety or something.
16:58
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
16:59
SPEAKER_00: What's your response as a therapist to that?
17:02
SPEAKER_01: I try to yeah, I try to explain that trauma isn't just about what happened, it could just also be how did your nervous system experience it?
17:12
SPEAKER_01: So if they're like, oh no, I don't think I experienced trauma, or some people might not even label what is actual trauma to not trauma.
17:20
SPEAKER_01: So it is figuring out, well, what are some behavioral things you're noticing?
17:24
SPEAKER_01: What are some things that you're noticing in your body?
17:28
SPEAKER_01: And then we kind of trace it back and help explain maybe these are incidences why you are responding and reacting that way.
17:35
SPEAKER_01: And I think just psychoeducation around that helps.
17:38
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
17:47
SPEAKER_00: And this is back when like therapy wasn't cool.
17:52
SPEAKER_00: Where because I started going to therapy when I was in college, and my friends were like, What, why?
17:57
SPEAKER_00: What happened?
17:57
SPEAKER_00: What's wrong with you?
17:58
SPEAKER_00: And and I'm like, nothing.
18:00
SPEAKER_00: I just notice I have things I need to work on.
18:03
SPEAKER_00: Like, like people think extreme, extreme, like something horrible happened.
18:08
SPEAKER_00: But therapy is so helpful when you are ready, when you acknowledge, because trust me, I want everybody to go to therapy, but that's not gonna happen.
18:16
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and I and I think that's where a lot of misconception happens with therapy.
18:21
SPEAKER_01: It's it feels like you have to come with a problem.
18:24
SPEAKER_01: Of course, you know, there is a problem that you want to address, but having that 45 to 50 minutes of just non-judgmental space, actually, a lot of things can come out, and people then start to talk and talk, and it's different from friends because we're not here to give you advice right away, or we're not here to that hard.
18:45
SPEAKER_01: Right.
18:46
SPEAKER_01: We're not here to give any biased opinions, we're really creating a space for you to talk things through, and naturally things come up.
18:53
SPEAKER_01: I we haven't really talked about, yeah.
18:55
SPEAKER_00: I want to emphasize that because I know it's like I don't need to talk to someone, I could talk to my friend, but oh, but you know what?
18:59
SPEAKER_00: You know what self me?
19:00
SPEAKER_00: I am a better friend and partner and daughter by hiring a therapist because I'm dealing with all my shit there, as opposed to talking because I would hear myself before my 20s like, I am talking about the same problem with my friend.
19:14
SPEAKER_00: She must be so annoyed of me.
19:16
SPEAKER_00: And she was, like I could tell, because then I would keep calling and they would ignore them, like, huh, okay, that's it's me, not her.
19:24
SPEAKER_00: I should probably for therapist to help help me with it.
19:28
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I actually get a lot um of inquiries through that way of oh, I'm just really tired of talking to my friends about it.
19:35
SPEAKER_00: And that you are a better friend because of that.
19:37
SPEAKER_00: Let me just tell you.
19:38
SPEAKER_00: Yep, yep.
19:39
SPEAKER_00: So I'm sure people are curious because you talked about like bilateral stimulation.
19:43
SPEAKER_00: What is that?
19:44
SPEAKER_00: Like, can you walk us through a typical EMDR session?
19:47
SPEAKER_00: What a client might expect during that process.
19:50
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
19:51
SPEAKER_01: So bilateral stimulation is essentially moving your eyes back and forth, like left and right.
19:59
SPEAKER_01: And essentially what that does is it's replicating what our brain already does during REM sleep.
20:06
SPEAKER_01: So I don't know if you know what happens when you're sleeping and your eyes are closed.
20:10
SPEAKER_01: Tell us what happens when we're sleeping.
20:12
SPEAKER_00: I don't even think I know this.
20:14
SPEAKER_00: So I'm educating myself in this interview.
20:16
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
20:17
SPEAKER_01: When you, I don't know if you've ever seen somebody sleep, but their eyes are rapidly moving left and right.
20:23
SPEAKER_00: No, this is a okay, wow.
20:25
SPEAKER_00: Okay, keep going.
20:26
SPEAKER_00: I'm learning.
20:27
SPEAKER_01: So our essentially our brain decides, okay, it during sleep, our brain reviews our day and it says, okay, what is important for us to eat and what is important to throw out, right?
20:40
SPEAKER_01: And depending our brain just randomly chooses, okay, what we ate for lunch is not important, but hey, this interaction that I have with this person is important.
20:50
SPEAKER_01: And so what Ren Cycle does is essentially the brain just naturally processes the memories and the emotions.
20:58
SPEAKER_01: And so our brain, our brain just does it.
21:01
SPEAKER_01: And so bilateral, we're just simulate stimulating that in real life.
21:06
SPEAKER_01: And by moving our eyes left and right pretty rapidly, we're able to access the the emotion so that we could reprocess it together.
21:15
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
21:16
SPEAKER_01: Very good.
21:16
SPEAKER_01: I'm amazed.
21:17
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I know this podcast like is not on video, but like my jaw dropped.
21:22
SPEAKER_00: I was like, so this is what I heard.
21:24
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
21:24
SPEAKER_00: So, because I know you might be walking or listening to it while doing chores or driving.
21:30
SPEAKER_00: So you're looking left and right because that's what you're doing for EMDR.
21:34
SPEAKER_00: And so when you're sleeping, which makes sense because when I've seen like my partner sleeping, I'm like, oh my god, his eyes, like that's crazy.
21:39
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
21:40
SPEAKER_00: And so what I heard is it's basically processing what's happened in the day and it kind of stores it.
21:45
SPEAKER_00: Like, okay, that was a happy emotion, sad emotion.
21:48
SPEAKER_00: I'm thinking about inside out.
21:49
SPEAKER_00: Yes, exactly.
21:51
SPEAKER_00: And I appreciate that because I think what I'm hearing is, you know, when something happens in the day, you know, when you're like, oh, I should have said this to that person, that cut.
22:00
SPEAKER_00: Me off or said this rude thing, you don't you did it, but then it's not until a day later or a couple of days like, oh, that's how I really felt, right?
22:09
SPEAKER_00: Like you didn't know how to identify that emotion the moment, but then while you're sleeping, it's kind of organizing it for you.
22:16
SPEAKER_00: Is that what I'm hearing?
22:18
SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
22:18
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
22:19
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
22:20
SPEAKER_01: And what happens with trauma is our brain decided, oh, this was really important.
22:25
SPEAKER_01: And then it stores it, but then it we call it maladaptive.
22:30
SPEAKER_01: And so it just stores there.
22:32
SPEAKER_01: And then anytime something happens in the present day, your brain references back to that memory and says, Oh, that happened, so that's happening right now.
22:40
SPEAKER_01: So we have to respond the same way right now.
22:43
SPEAKER_01: But like the example that you gave me, Elaine, you're not you're not young anymore.
22:48
SPEAKER_01: You're you now know not to touch boiling water, right?
22:52
SPEAKER_01: And so, how can we take your wisdom that you gained from years of life to that memory so that your brain could say, okay, you're not there anymore.
23:02
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's it is an Olympics gymnastics.
23:08
SPEAKER_00: Let me tell you.
23:09
SPEAKER_00: I think a perfect example, because we're both in LA, is the fires that just happened.
23:15
SPEAKER_00: And everyone was in trauma response, right?
23:18
SPEAKER_00: Our partners, our parents, like responding to the I had to be like, okay, wait, hold on, let me calm down.
23:26
SPEAKER_00: I don't need to act like oldest daughter right now and be controlling and tell everyone what to do.
23:32
SPEAKER_00: Let me deal with my own.
23:34
SPEAKER_00: Like it was just, I felt like that was a great social of trauma responses.
23:41
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that was a collective trauma we all experienced, and people responded completely different.
23:47
SPEAKER_01: Some people went into full volunteer mode, right?
23:50
SPEAKER_01: Of like, I need to help out, I need to do something.
23:53
SPEAKER_01: Some people just stayed home and isolated, right?
23:56
SPEAKER_01: So we are able to see actually how people respond.
23:59
SPEAKER_01: And, you know, as a therapist, they should have been curious how why did you respond that way, right?
24:04
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
24:07
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
24:08
SPEAKER_00: Okay, I'm still in awe.
24:09
SPEAKER_00: I'm like, oh, that makes sense.
24:11
SPEAKER_00: And so, and then what you do as an EMDR therapist, well, it happens, you're doing the similar bilateral simulation, but you're going back to past memories and feeling that.
24:21
SPEAKER_00: And you're kind of like, okay, we're gonna organize this so then when you have a similar situation in present or adult, you don't have to go into that response.
24:31
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
24:32
SPEAKER_01: I know a lot of people get confused, or I I don't know if you felt this way, but a lot of people feel that EMDR they confuse it with hypnosis.
24:41
SPEAKER_01: So they when they see the eye movements going back and forth, they're like, Are is this hypnosis?
24:46
SPEAKER_01: And EMDR is not hypnosis.
24:48
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
24:48
SPEAKER_01: Can you share the difference and why it's not?
24:51
SPEAKER_01: Yes, hypnosis is you are in a trance-like state.
24:55
SPEAKER_01: So you are trying to access the unconscious part.
24:59
SPEAKER_01: And what the hypnosis would do is it would make statements of like, you don't do this.
25:05
SPEAKER_01: Or they do a lot more behavioral changes or behavioral, I guess, statements.
25:10
SPEAKER_01: Whereas EMDR, you are in the present moment.
25:12
SPEAKER_01: It's kind of like having dual monitors.
25:14
SPEAKER_01: You're able to access the past while you're awake and then also be in the present moment looking at the eye movements, going back and forth.
25:22
SPEAKER_01: So the main difference is that you are not in a trance-like state and that you're not going to be doing anything that you have no idea about.
25:29
SPEAKER_01: You are very actively participating when you are doing EMDR.
25:33
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
25:34
SPEAKER_00: Legacy leader.
25:36
SPEAKER_00: I know what you're thinking.
25:37
SPEAKER_00: Elaine, you have such good stuff here.
25:40
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25:41
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25:52
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25:54
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25:59
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26:00
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26:52
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26:54
SPEAKER_00: All right, let's get back to the episode.
27:00
SPEAKER_00: And also, so my my therapist told me this because it's it's tiring after.
27:06
SPEAKER_00: Like you're exhausted.
27:08
SPEAKER_00: Can you explain why it's exhausted?
27:09
SPEAKER_00: And she explained it that like it's like a spoon in a melting pot, and you've just like moved your brain, like you just cleanse out your brain.
27:19
SPEAKER_00: Cause it's not just the session, it's after the session, too, where you're healing, and that's powerful.
27:25
SPEAKER_00: Can you describe the post between sessions what's happening to your brain?
27:30
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
27:31
SPEAKER_01: So after, well, when we are doing the EMDR, we're essentially accessing the most difficult part of that memory.
27:38
SPEAKER_01: And so we are asking our clients to go back to the moment where it felt really overwhelming.
27:44
SPEAKER_01: And so by activating multiple parts of the brain, it's like running a marathon in our brain.
27:51
SPEAKER_01: We're working really hard to reprocess, it's moving really fast.
27:54
SPEAKER_01: So you do feel really drained during EMDR as well.
27:58
SPEAKER_01: Some people, their emotions get really big during that time and it might feel really scary.
28:03
SPEAKER_01: But after that, your brain just is continuing to reprocess throughout the day as well.
28:09
SPEAKER_01: And so it is almost releasing a lot of that energy.
28:14
SPEAKER_01: And so you might feel very exhausted doing memory work.
28:18
SPEAKER_00: I'm I'm curious you could validate or not, but it kind of feels like you know, when an iPhone gets a new upgrade, and so they have to shut off, like they have to literally turn off to get the new upgrade.
28:30
SPEAKER_00: Is that what's happening?
28:31
SPEAKER_00: Like why it's so tiring?
28:33
SPEAKER_00: It's kind of like your brain's getting an upgrade from what just happened.
28:36
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
28:37
SPEAKER_01: It's maybe not like completely turning off, but we are the bilateral essentially is accessing like the right and the left part of the brain.
28:46
SPEAKER_01: We're like utilizing our whole brain to do this.
28:49
SPEAKER_01: So imagine just focusing intently on something for an hour straight.
28:55
SPEAKER_01: Naturally, your your brain is just gonna feel really tired.
28:58
SPEAKER_01: Just like when you're working, doing really deep focus work for an hour, you are so drained afterwards.
29:04
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
29:04
SPEAKER_00: Okay, y'all.
29:05
SPEAKER_00: If you don't even know this, I did this to benefit all of you to learn about EMTR, but I'm actually benefiting learning this.
29:12
SPEAKER_00: So thank you.
29:13
SPEAKER_00: I didn't even expect it.
29:14
SPEAKER_00: I was like, wow, this makes complete sense.
29:17
SPEAKER_00: Because I think it is important.
29:18
SPEAKER_00: It's I think EMTR, I feel like, has gotten popular in what the past five years.
29:22
SPEAKER_00: When do you think I just want to say I was in it before it was cool 10 years ago?
29:27
SPEAKER_00: Just want to tell all of you, okay?
29:29
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
29:29
SPEAKER_01: I think it starts to get big because I think I heard Prince Harry did it or something, and he talked about it, and then that just also opened a new door.
29:37
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
29:37
SPEAKER_01: Anyways.
29:38
SPEAKER_00: I didn't follow a trend.
29:40
SPEAKER_00: I followed the I'm done with my shit.
29:43
SPEAKER_00: You're the OG.
29:44
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
29:45
SPEAKER_00: No, no, well, okay, okay.
29:46
SPEAKER_00: Just if you all really want to get to know me personally, like, whoo, you guys are getting to know me.
29:52
SPEAKER_00: I was I was dating someone and I was just like, uh, this keeps happening.
29:56
SPEAKER_00: What the hell is happening?
29:57
SPEAKER_00: It's not them, it's me.
29:58
SPEAKER_00: No, really, it was like it's like it's like different person's name, same type of same type of situation, right?
30:05
SPEAKER_00: And I'm also not blaming the individual.
30:07
SPEAKER_00: I I completely acknowledge what I had to work with.
30:11
SPEAKER_00: I'm like, there is something going on with me.
30:13
SPEAKER_00: And like that's what pushed me.
30:15
SPEAKER_00: I'm like, there's I keep repeating the same patterns, what's happening here.
30:18
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's a very good way of being aware and knowing when I need help is when I see the same patterns over and over again.
30:26
SPEAKER_01: And no matter what I do, it's not changing.
30:28
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
30:29
SPEAKER_00: I was just like, I'm it's kind of like what we were talking about earlier.
30:31
SPEAKER_00: Like, I'm talking, I'm done talking about this to my friends.
30:34
SPEAKER_00: I'm doing the same shit over and over again.
30:37
SPEAKER_00: And I know like cognitively, so something deeper needs to happen.
30:41
SPEAKER_00: And I like giving the iceberg analogy.
30:44
SPEAKER_00: So I'm curious if you feel the same way of the, you know, 20% we acknowledge, but really it's a deep 80%.
30:51
SPEAKER_00: And that's what you need to heal.
30:52
SPEAKER_00: Is there anything you want to add to that, Jennifer?
30:55
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think a lot of the times our brain is always trying to protect us.
31:00
SPEAKER_01: And maybe that also looks like not even remembering some memories, not even recognizing our behaviors because it's like, look, we gotta survive right now, and thinking about these things are not really helping us.
31:12
SPEAKER_01: So it decides to store it away.
31:15
SPEAKER_01: And sometimes we don't even know.
31:16
SPEAKER_01: But EndR essentially trying to unlock that 80%.
31:20
SPEAKER_01: And sometimes memories come up that you've never even thought of.
31:24
SPEAKER_00: You know, I appreciate you saying that sometimes trauma or trigger point will block it.
31:29
SPEAKER_00: And I say that because I had, I'm gonna make it really broad because it's this is another person, not me, but I had another loved one.
31:39
SPEAKER_00: We would share similar experiences when we were younger, and they told me, I don't remember that.
31:45
SPEAKER_00: I'm like, oh, I remember every detail.
31:49
SPEAKER_00: How did you?
31:50
SPEAKER_00: And I say that because I think there's always assumptions like, how do you not remember this moment or this experience?
31:55
SPEAKER_00: But our brains, to your point, we are all individuals and we store it a different way.
32:02
SPEAKER_01: Yes, yeah.
32:04
SPEAKER_01: And your brain decided to choose what was the best thing for that person, and that looked like maybe let's just hide this away.
32:12
SPEAKER_00: Okay, my control freaks are upset.
32:15
SPEAKER_00: Why can we not control where it's gonna be stored and fix that in a self-aware way?
32:19
SPEAKER_00: I know you're laughing at me, but it's true.
32:21
SPEAKER_00: You know this, you work with clients all the time.
32:23
SPEAKER_00: Like, why?
32:24
SPEAKER_00: Explain that to us in a science explanation.
32:27
SPEAKER_02: Wait, wait, wait, rephrase that question.
32:30
SPEAKER_02: Why can't we control the way that our brain Yeah?
32:32
SPEAKER_00: It's like, hey, why can't why can't I say this is like an okay?
32:37
SPEAKER_00: I know we're laughing about things.
32:39
SPEAKER_00: Do you know what I mean?
32:40
SPEAKER_00: Am I making sense in my question?
32:42
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's like, hey, hey, negative experience from when I was five.
32:46
SPEAKER_00: Like, can we not take this so seriously in our adult self?
32:50
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
32:50
SPEAKER_01: So I think that comes because we we we see how memories are stored in like technology, right?
32:59
SPEAKER_01: We're like, oh yes, I could probably save it in this file or this folder.
33:04
SPEAKER_01: But our brains, they didn't they don't do that.
33:06
SPEAKER_01: We don't have control over it.
33:08
SPEAKER_01: It's it's very complex, it's very dynamic, and it's constantly changing.
33:13
SPEAKER_01: We're making new neural pathways all the time.
33:16
SPEAKER_01: And so it is hard to kind of decide where to hold it, but we know generally where things are stored in our brain.
33:25
SPEAKER_01: So, for example, you know, our prefrontal cortex, the front part of our brain, essentially retrieves those memories and helps interpret some of those memories, or the amygdala stores are emotional responses that are fear.
33:41
SPEAKER_01: So there are parts of the brain that are, you know, that are stored, but it is hard for me to be like, okay, this memory, I'm gonna store it here.
33:48
SPEAKER_01: Our brain just decides on its own.
33:50
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, just watch Inside Out too.
33:51
SPEAKER_00: I think that that's what I'm hearing.
33:52
SPEAKER_00: Inside Out is that I love that movie.
33:54
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I love both movies.
33:56
SPEAKER_00: Anxiety is my favorite Disney princess.
33:59
SPEAKER_00: She gets me.
34:01
SPEAKER_00: And then I think what I loved, okay.
34:04
SPEAKER_00: This is a pitch not to just do EMDR to watch Inside Out, but like when they talked about Joy, I appreciate them showing both the light and shadow side of emotions.
34:13
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
34:14
SPEAKER_00: So they talked about Joy being deluble.
34:15
SPEAKER_00: I was like, oh my god, I get delusional.
34:18
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
34:19
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
34:19
SPEAKER_01: Um, that movie does such a great job of explaining things.
34:22
SPEAKER_01: Oh, they you know they hired therapists for that.
34:24
SPEAKER_00: Oh they did.
34:26
SPEAKER_01: For sure.
34:27
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's crazy because those are all emotions too.
34:31
SPEAKER_01: So when you think about them touching the crystal ball, it's not just the memory of Riley like winning something, there's emotions also impacted in that memory, right?
34:40
SPEAKER_01: Of sadness and joy.
34:42
SPEAKER_01: And so, just like that too, our brain decides to store emotions related to that.
34:47
SPEAKER_01: So our brain just does a lot of things.
34:50
SPEAKER_00: You know what?
34:50
SPEAKER_00: Inside out is actually a great example to what you explained.
34:53
SPEAKER_00: Like it gets those crystal balls of memories, and you just don't know why.
34:56
SPEAKER_00: It's just stored in whatever emotions.
34:59
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
35:00
SPEAKER_01: Joy, joy is the one that's trying to control, right?
35:02
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, toxic positivity, everyone.
35:07
SPEAKER_00: Toxic positivity.
35:09
SPEAKER_00: And there's also a good side of anxiety, right?
35:11
SPEAKER_00: Like we talked about the fires.
35:13
SPEAKER_00: Like, if you unfortunately if you live, if you see a fire, you go run.
35:17
SPEAKER_00: Like that anxiety of running for your safety, that is a good anxiety.
35:21
SPEAKER_00: Doesn't feel good, but that saves you.
35:24
SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
35:25
SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
35:26
SPEAKER_01: I I really liked how they describe each function of those emotions.
35:30
SPEAKER_01: Again, they're not bad or good, they're just neutral things.
35:32
SPEAKER_01: They're just trying to teach us and trying to communicate with us what's happening and then you know what they want to do.
35:39
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, actually, this was not in the questions I asked you, but yeah, can you kind of explain emotions?
35:45
SPEAKER_00: Because I think I used to have the assumption, oh, my emotion is telling me this.
35:50
SPEAKER_00: So this is exactly how everyone else should feel and how I should go towards.
35:56
SPEAKER_00: Like, I like I have to apologize to all my old friends and exes because I acknowledge that, but I'm healed, still working on it.
36:03
SPEAKER_00: Healed, all of you.
36:05
SPEAKER_00: Yes, yes, yeah.
36:07
SPEAKER_01: Emotions are very complex.
36:09
SPEAKER_01: I mean, we have like general emotions, like we see an inside out, everyone has joy, everyone has sadness, everyone has anxiety, and there are specific functions to each emotion, right?
36:20
SPEAKER_01: Anxiety primarily focuses on fear and sadness.
36:25
SPEAKER_01: And so there's there's environmental things that can speak to that emotion, and depending on what the emotion wants us to do, we then filter out does it make sense for me to respond this way or not?
36:36
SPEAKER_01: And that is also part of emotional regulation.
36:39
SPEAKER_00: And what is emotional regulation?
36:41
SPEAKER_00: Not everybody knows that.
36:42
SPEAKER_00: What is that?
36:43
SPEAKER_01: It's the ability to contain and react appropriately to the situation, simply.
36:51
SPEAKER_00: And to what Jennifer said, it was like the situation where I shared where I got into an argument.
36:55
SPEAKER_00: I was like, wait, hold on, I'm upset.
36:58
SPEAKER_00: Let me take deep breathing, let me be in a calm place, like just knowing and honestly, breath.
37:05
SPEAKER_00: Breath is such a powerful way to do self-regulation.
37:09
SPEAKER_00: I was doing research where normally we breathe like 12 to 15 breaths a minute.
37:16
SPEAKER_00: And then we're in when we're in a state of panic or anxiety or unregulated, it's 30 breaths a minute.
37:22
SPEAKER_00: So when we catch ourselves being unregulated or triggered, you could consciously tell yourself, okay, breathe in three, hold, breathe out.
37:31
SPEAKER_00: And that actually helps regulate your emotions.
37:33
SPEAKER_00: I'm not saying this because I'm from LA, but like I'm saying this because I did the research.
37:37
SPEAKER_00: Anything else you want to share with that, Jennifer, since you're the therapist here, not me.
37:41
SPEAKER_00: I needed to be healed.
37:42
SPEAKER_01: Yes, breathing just uh it directly affects our nervous system.
37:46
SPEAKER_01: And so by doing very slow and deep breathing, it activates a parasympathetic nervous system, which allows our brain to say, okay, we could start to rest and we can start digesting our food.
38:00
SPEAKER_01: When it's like moving really fast, you you get into that fight or flight mode.
38:05
SPEAKER_01: So deep breathing definitely allows you to access a part of the nervous system to help calm down, right?
38:11
SPEAKER_01: And help relax.
38:13
SPEAKER_01: And so it is so important, but I know it's such a common thing that therapists say now.
38:19
SPEAKER_01: So a lot of people are just kind of turned off by it.
38:22
SPEAKER_01: But I think mindfulness as well as breathing is extremely helpful.
38:26
SPEAKER_00: Well, Paul, I appreciate you giving the science behind it.
38:30
SPEAKER_00: So going back to when I went to UC Irvine, I didn't just graduate, I didn't just get my bachelor's in psychology, I got my bachelor's in cognitive sciences.
38:38
SPEAKER_00: Oh and if you don't know what cognitive science is, it's the study of the brain.
38:42
SPEAKER_00: So I am nerding out right now, Jennifer, as you're talking.
38:46
SPEAKER_00: Oh my gosh, this is so your alley then.
38:50
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, but I wish I wish I had a professor like you though to explain it.
38:54
SPEAKER_00: Like, oh my gosh, wow.
38:55
SPEAKER_00: But mind you, also I'm older now and I've gone through stuff and I went through my own healing that like it makes more sense now as opposed to when I was in my young college years.
39:07
SPEAKER_00: So I know EMDR is not the only modality that you use in your practice.
39:12
SPEAKER_00: What other modalities do you provide and why did you choose them on top of EMDR?
39:18
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so I also do DBT, which stands for dialectical behavioral therapy.
39:25
SPEAKER_01: It's another form of CBT, but it primarily focuses on mindfulness and behavioral therapy.
39:32
SPEAKER_01: So I really like to partner DBT and EMDR together because before you do any trauma work, you want to make sure that you have a lot of positive resources, right?
39:44
SPEAKER_01: Good coping skills because we are now opening this vault and we're letting things out.
39:49
SPEAKER_01: We need the ability to be able to cope with some of those things.
39:52
SPEAKER_01: And DBT does a really great job of teaching skills on how to regulate your emotions, how to react during distressing events, and then practice mindfulness, awareness of where and why these things come up.
40:07
SPEAKER_01: So I like to use DBT kind of as a before and during, you know, EMDR phase or trauma work, but it is primarily focused for those with behavioral issues, so like substance use or you know, self-harm, things like that.
40:23
SPEAKER_01: So I really like mixing those two together.
40:27
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
40:28
SPEAKER_00: Okay, so I know that I really I'm not saying this to just make you feel good, Jennifer.
40:34
SPEAKER_00: I know that everyone's probably fascinated with EMDR, fascinated more importantly, with you.
40:39
SPEAKER_00: So if people are interested in working with you andor one of your team members, how can they reach you or find you?
40:47
SPEAKER_01: Yes, so my practice is called Strong Roots Therapy.
40:51
SPEAKER_01: My website is buildstrongroots.com.
40:54
SPEAKER_01: You can definitely fill out a consultation form through the website with me or another therapist.
41:01
SPEAKER_01: We again provide services in person and virtual all over California, in person in Pasadena, particularly.
41:07
SPEAKER_01: So you can definitely go on the website, read through if if you feel like we might be a good fit.
41:13
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, we can definitely have a free 15-minute call to see and then go forward from there.
41:19
SPEAKER_00: And just know Jennifer's getting busy.
41:21
SPEAKER_00: That's why she has to hire other therapists.
41:23
SPEAKER_00: So you're probably gonna want to have to schedule that sooner rather than later, especially after this interview.
41:27
SPEAKER_00: I'm not this is probably one of my favorite interviews of the year.
41:31
SPEAKER_00: Oh because I'm nerdy and there's so much things wrong with me.
41:34
SPEAKER_00: I'm just kidding.
41:37
SPEAKER_00: This was really fun, yes.
41:39
SPEAKER_00: No, I I really enjoyed learning and understanding it because I think so often when people think therapy, it's like this visceral like, what is it?
41:48
SPEAKER_00: You know, how I don't get it.
41:51
SPEAKER_01: Yes, I'd love to talk about it because there still needs to be a lot of education around it, and it's not easy work, there's a lot of parts to this, and so I'm really glad I was able to talk about it and maybe shed some light into it.
42:07
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
42:08
SPEAKER_00: And I know you had experience working with me where you're you've been a coaching client.
42:13
SPEAKER_00: Can you share your experience where I was the coach and any tips or advice for anyone interested in working with me?
42:19
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
42:19
SPEAKER_01: Oh my gosh.
42:20
SPEAKER_01: When I first sought out Elaine, I was so overwhelmed.
42:25
SPEAKER_01: I had no idea what to do.
42:28
SPEAKER_01: And I have done a lot of coaching.
42:31
SPEAKER_01: I've done like a six-month or year coaching with other people, and I I couldn't really find exactly what I really wanted.
42:39
SPEAKER_01: And I think I ran into your profile actually.
42:43
SPEAKER_01: I like sent a Facebook post out somewhere and I said, I'm looking for like a business coach, and somebody actually happened.
42:49
SPEAKER_01: Okay, somebody referred you.
42:51
SPEAKER_01: And I remember reading through your website, and I was like, I really like this person's aura, this vibe, and like what you were doing.
43:00
SPEAKER_01: And so I decided to reach out, and I think it was really helpful because you offered very small group coaching as well as the one-on-ones.
43:10
SPEAKER_01: I found a lot of value in the one-on-ones.
43:13
SPEAKER_01: I personally, because of my schedule, it was really hard for me to attend the office hours, but they were all super informative.
43:19
SPEAKER_01: I think it was helpful for me to have somebody else organize my thoughts for me.
43:26
SPEAKER_01: You're basically my therapist as well, in a way.
43:29
SPEAKER_01: And then having the accountability encouraging me.
43:32
SPEAKER_01: I think I there were a lot of things that I felt really scared about, but you helped me to challenge those.
43:38
SPEAKER_01: And yeah, now I'm at a place where I feel very aligned with my values and my business.
43:44
SPEAKER_01: And and that is okay too.
43:46
SPEAKER_01: I think I came in with a certain vision, but through working with you, I was able to change it and find something that actually makes sense for me.
43:55
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
43:56
SPEAKER_00: I mean, before we hit record, we were talking about like what trips are Are we going are you going to?
44:03
SPEAKER_00: Like it wasn't, I think so often people think like, oh, how much did you make?
44:06
SPEAKER_00: And it's and how big is your team?
44:08
SPEAKER_00: But it's like we we just talked about like, oh yeah, these are the trips I'm going to.
44:12
SPEAKER_00: And then even embracing, like, yeah, this is how I want my team to look like.
44:15
SPEAKER_00: Like, let's make this simple.
44:17
SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
44:18
SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
44:18
SPEAKER_01: And I think the biggest point too is it doesn't have to be perfect.
44:22
SPEAKER_01: We talked about how it's okay it being imperfect.
44:26
SPEAKER_01: And that's part of life.
44:28
SPEAKER_01: I also really liked having access to you if I had any questions and you were just there readily available to answer and then encourage.
44:38
SPEAKER_01: So it did feel like a coach next to me just telling me I could do it.
44:43
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it was super valuable to me.
44:45
SPEAKER_00: So thank you.
44:46
SPEAKER_00: I'm excited for you.
44:48
SPEAKER_00: I'm excited that this podcast is coming out.
44:50
SPEAKER_00: I've been wanting to do this.
44:52
SPEAKER_00: Just in general, like EMDR.
44:54
SPEAKER_00: So then when you became a client, like, oh my gosh, I can't wait for her to like talk about this.
44:59
SPEAKER_00: Jennifer, actually, I do want to ask you.
45:03
SPEAKER_00: If people are like, I know I need help, but I'm not sure if it should be a therapist or coach, what advice would you have?
45:09
SPEAKER_00: I'll I'll share my advice to be like transparent with all the clients, like my experience being a coach and my personal experience being a client for both a coach and therapist.
45:19
SPEAKER_00: I find that hands down, if I had to choose one over the other, therapy is more important than coaching because you can't hit your goals unless you haven't healed things.
45:30
SPEAKER_00: And you'll know if you need therapy if you notice a consistent block or repetition.
45:35
SPEAKER_00: And then coaching helps in terms of like, okay, here are my goals, but I don't know how to get there.
45:41
SPEAKER_00: But I have, I will also say my best clients actually work simultaneously with me and a therapist because I always share this quote: every new level, there's a new devil.
45:52
SPEAKER_00: So you want to reach that goal of like whatever it is in your career or business, like there tends to be a block and a therapist helps simultaneously.
46:00
SPEAKER_00: Anything you want to add to that?
46:02
SPEAKER_00: Because I think it's important.
46:03
SPEAKER_00: People are always like, I want help, but I'm not sure which one.
46:05
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
46:06
SPEAKER_01: No, I completely completely agree with you.
46:08
SPEAKER_01: I think you ideally you do want to do both at the same time.
46:12
SPEAKER_01: But therapy just also helps you to process maybe are there any blocking beliefs or negative beliefs that might stop you from reaching goals, right?
46:21
SPEAKER_01: Yes, agreed.
46:22
SPEAKER_01: And so I think it is helpful, but ideally, yeah, doing it together is the best because you can work on, you know, the emotional aspect of it.
46:31
SPEAKER_01: And then the coaching helps you to now implement it and make this life that you want.
46:37
SPEAKER_01: And so I think both are great.
46:40
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
46:40
SPEAKER_00: Jennifer, get ready.
46:42
SPEAKER_00: I feel like your calendar is gonna get busy.
46:45
SPEAKER_00: Sorry.
46:46
SPEAKER_00: Oh man.
46:47
SPEAKER_01: I will have to reach out to you again.
46:50
SPEAKER_00: No, but this has been a fantastic interview.
46:55
SPEAKER_00: I would recommend if you're listening to it, like, oh my gosh, this was great.
46:59
SPEAKER_00: I learned so much.
47:00
SPEAKER_00: And if you know one or two friends, loved ones who are curious about therapy, definitely send it to them, especially for those that think therapy is very visceral or I don't know what's gonna happen.
47:12
SPEAKER_00: Like, cause this just provided a lot of the science behind it, which you did so well in explaining.
47:18
SPEAKER_00: And my my little college bachelor's in cognitive sciences girl is so happy right now.
47:25
SPEAKER_01: No, thank you so much for giving me the space and asking very, very good questions.
47:31
SPEAKER_01: And yeah, for those who feel like POC therapy, you're done, or it feels like I don't know what else.
47:38
SPEAKER_01: EMDR definitely helps to tap into the body portion as well.
47:41
SPEAKER_00: So and if you sell love with Jennifer, go to her.
47:44
SPEAKER_00: She didn't pitch herself there.
47:45
SPEAKER_00: So I'm gonna do that.
47:46
SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna go tag your mama on it.
47:48
SPEAKER_00: Oh my gosh, you do it better than me.
47:50
SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
47:51
SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
47:55
SPEAKER_00: I told you all this was a great episode.
47:59
SPEAKER_00: And if you are seeing those patterns, you're just tired of it and you want to work with a therapist and you are interested in working with Jennifer, go to buildstrongroots.com.
48:10
SPEAKER_00: That's B-U-I-L-D, S T-R-O-N-G roots.com.
48:15
SPEAKER_00: I've also put the link in the show notes.
48:18
SPEAKER_00: So if you're interested in working with her and you want to schedule that call, click there.
48:22
SPEAKER_00: And if you're interested in working with me, a coach, to help you reach your goals, get three action items, at least in the first call, then schedule an introductory coaching call with me at ElaineLew.com forward slash call.
48:36
SPEAKER_00: That's E-L-A-I-N-E-L-O-U.com forward slash call.