Latest / The Permission Slip / S2 | E18 Ken Moench

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S2 | E18 Ken Moench · The Permission Slip

• S2•E18 Moench === Matt Kosterman: Hi, this is Matt, and we're back with another episode of The Permission Slip. Today, I am in beautiful Austin, Texas with Ken Mensch. He is the founder of the Mensch Method Body Work here in Austin, with, uh, four locations- Ken Moench: Correct ... Matt Kosterman: on this side. Yes. Welcome, Ken. Ken Moench: Thank you. I'm so glad that you're here with me in Austin, Texas. Matt Kosterman: I'm glad I'm here with you, too. I just, uh, I just spent the last multiple hours being tenderized. By the Mensch Method. Ken Moench: That's a, that's a nice way to put it. Yeah. Matt Kosterman: So, uh, the... Tell us about the Mensch Method. Ken Moench: Uh, it is a, I mean, i- in technical terms, it's a combination of, uh, deep tissue myofascial release and trigger point or ischemic pressure, uh, with tar- with movement through targeted ranges of motion. Ken Moench: Um- Matt Kosterman: So that's a, yeah, that's a complicated way of saying- Uh- ... tenderized. Ken Moench: Right. So, so basically what we do is we push into the soft tissue. It blocks blood supply to that muscle temporarily, and we're finding the tight ones to do this to. Uh, if you push into a muscle that's the proper length, you can push through it to the bone with no pain. Ken Moench: If it's tight, it'll hurt. If it's really tight, it'll really hurt. So the, the need is not for a, uh, just a ton of pressure. It's pressure in the right place. And so when you block blood supply to that muscle temporarily, it can't get oxygen. 'Cause it can't get oxygen, it can't breathe, so it can't contract. Ken Moench: So the only other thing that a muscle knows to do is to relax. Matt Kosterman: To relax. And so Ken Moench: when it- Or to sleep ... when it does, then we start to move it through the ranges of motion that that muscle's supposed to be able to go through, and we do it only as the body's allowing us to get through those ranges of motion so we don't aggravate it. Ken Moench: And then before long, a muscle that was very short, tight, and contracted is now in its lengthened position. And not only that, but the pain signal turns off when it gets into its lengthened position. Matt Kosterman: Yeah, it's unbelievable. Like, it does. It, it, it, it was a eight or an eight and a half on a scale of one to 10 for a little bit. Ken Moench: Yeah. Matt Kosterman: And then without you releasing any pressure, the pain s- s- subsided. Ken Moench: It certainly- Matt Kosterman: The intensity. Ken Moench: Yeah. It eventually gets to be where it feels like pressure. Matt Kosterman: It's just pressure, exactly right. And, and, and so, um, before we get into that, like how... So w- w- who is this for? Ken Moench: We we work on- ... we work on... The, the youngest baby I've worked on is a day an apple. Ken Moench: That was my, my granddaughter, um, one of them. And, um, the oldest person was 97 years old. We work on desk jockeys. We work on professional athletes. We work on little leaguers. We work on- Okay ... high school and college athletes. Olympians. Olympians. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Ken Moench: All over the board. And, and you know, I, I thought, and I... Y- you live in Chicago now. Ken Moench: Yeah. This is my ninth state. I don't know how many cities I've lived in, but I, I always thought... I grew up in little towns. Um, uh- Matt Kosterman: Yeah, how'd you get into all this? How did this...? Ken Moench: It, it was, uh, it was such a weird journey. M- my, my dad when he was, uh, younger, uh, we were moving from one place to the other. Matt Kosterman: Military. Ken Moench: He... Yes, uh, Air Force. And he, he was loading this U-Haul trailer, and he was trying to get it hooked up to the back of the car or truck we were in. And, uh- He, it slipped off the thing, he tried to lift it, bent over, and messed his back up. Matt Kosterman: Mm. Ken Moench: And for years, my job, one of my jobs with my dad was to walk on his back. Ken Moench: Now, I understand that that may not be the very best thing for this, especially now that I know what I know, but I was helping him do these things. I also remember in high school, I somehow or another was the guy in the dugout helping the ball players get over stuff. Matt Kosterman: You just had a- I just- ... an affinity for that Ken Moench: I, yeah. Yeah. And I, and, and I never thought that that was... I never heard of a massage. I'd never heard of massage therapy. Yeah. I'd never had one. As far as I know, I'd never given one, but apparently- But- ... I had. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. And you're te- Ken's 10 years older than me, looks 10 years younger. Ken Moench: But- Matt Kosterman: So from in that era, massage was, there, there was one kind of massage. Ken Moench: Exactly. Yeah. It was, it was- Yeah ... it was the type that- Matt Kosterman: Had a happy ending ... Ken Moench: yeah, exactly. Matt Kosterman: Right. Ken Moench: And, and even, like, when I, when I first got started in massage school, and I'll, I'll come back to the, the original question, there were girls in our class that wouldn't tell their parents that they were in massage school because they didn't want them to think they were gonna be a prostitute. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Ken Moench: And that's wh- how far this has come. I've be- I've been doing this now 33 years, and so it was about a year in massage school. And, um- Good for you ... good. And so- That, one of my, one of my goals when I got into this was to, to elevate massage therapy to something more than a massage parlor massage. Mm-hmm. Ken Moench: And it, I thought that it should be at the same level as any sort of therapist or doctor, because if you take people's pain away and other people aren't, you're, you're, y- you are their doctor. It's like I, I get called doctor on a regular basis and I correct people. "No, no, no, I'm a massage therapist. That's my credential." Matt Kosterman: Uh-huh. Right. Ken Moench: Um, but it's... Anyway, it's funny that they, it's come around that way. I mean, honestly, there are thousands of people that call me doctor. Uh- That's wild ... only because I was able to help them and nobody else was. Matt Kosterman: Nobody else could. Ken Moench: Um, or my staff. We have, uh, God, my staff is so brilliant right now- Yeah Ken Moench: that I hire people that are smarter than me, which is not that hard. But- Matt Kosterman: And you have, and you have four locations- Ken Moench: Four locations ... around Matt Kosterman: Austin. Ken Moench: Yes. Uh- Matt Kosterman: People fly in from all over. You fly all over. Ken Moench: That's the... Look, here's the crazy thing. I always thought when I was little growing up that I had to move to a big city to, to make an impact on the world, because I always wanted to make an impact on... Ken Moench: I wanted to help somehow and do something that would change things. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Ken Moench: And the, the little town I grew up in was 3,400 people. It was Caseyville, I- Illinois. Yeah. And it was, it was just out th- So we went to the high school in Collinsville because we didn't, we had an elementary school in Caseyville. And so I moved to, to Round Rock, Texas, and Austin and then to Round Rock, and I lived there for a number of years, and then now I live in Austin proper. Ken Moench: But still, I've been doing this for 33... I got licensed in '93. Matt Kosterman: Okay. Ken Moench: And I've been doing this that long, and the crazy part is we literally, from, uh, probably about three, four years after I developed this technique, I had people calling me from all over the country. Matt Kosterman: They'd heard about you from somebody. Ken Moench: From somebody in Austin. Ken Moench: And they looked up. And, and they said that, "Is there anywhere, anybody anywhere close to me, anyone that does anything like what you do?" Matt Kosterman: Mm-hmm. Ken Moench: And I said, "Well, no." Matt Kosterman: Right. Ken Moench: Um, the best you can do is try to find somebody who doesn't mind getting in deep and kind of hurting you a little bit and see, see what that does. Ken Moench: I said, "Southwest Airline flights are not that expensive. Just m- make the trip." Matt Kosterman: And- Compared to Mayo Clinic or Ken Moench: something, Matt Kosterman: right? Ken Moench: Like- Yes. And, and the crazy thing is we've had people fly here from almost every continent as well. Mm-hmm. It's just flying and, and driving from ridiculous distances to get here. Ken Moench: And I, I... S- so let me, let me get back to your original question. Matt Kosterman: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So you were working on the baseball players? Ken Moench: Well, I was d- I was doing that, but I, I, I never thought about it. I w- I, I was in retail management. I was, I was an, uh, an industrial electrician for 10 years. I worked on the river pushing barges around the Intracoastal Canal- Yeah Ken Moench: and up and down the Mississippi River. Uh, I, I've been a, a lawn guy. I've, I've worked at gas stations. I did all kinds of stuff. Matt Kosterman: Before you got Ken Moench: into- Before I got- ... into- ... into any of this stuff. Matt Kosterman: Okay. Ken Moench: And, and I was at, I was at a job in Baton Rouge, or outside of Baton Rouge, where I was living at the time, and I... Ken Moench: It was a, it was an, a, a maintenance job at an electrical plant. It was very... or a plastics plant. It was really clean, and it was just a maintenance job. So it wasn't a construction job. We were just maintaining the facility and everything. It looked like it was gonna be a long-term job. I got laid off. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Ken Moench: And I... Man, that was like a gut punch. Yeah. And I thought, "You know, I gotta do something more stable." And so I, uh, I really, for about a week, week and a half, I was just down, and I was just praying about it. It was like, "Lord, what... I don't even know what to do." Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Ken Moench: And then it crossed my mind, my, my ex and I went to a, a running class one time at, at a, at a hospital, and the person giving it was a physical therapist, and she, you know, went through all of these different running things. Ken Moench: And, and the thing that I took away from it most was I was looking at the clothes she was wearing, which was scrubs and tennis shoes, and I thought, "Man, that looks comfortable." No kidding. That, that was your in- That looks comfortable ... that was your Matt Kosterman: in. Ken Moench: That looks comfortable. Because I'd be used to being, wearing, you know, work boots- Yeah Ken Moench: hard hat, shields, gloves- Gloves ... Carhartt cu- you know, because of all the crap falling. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Ken Moench: And I, you know, in Louisiana in the summer- In the heat. Oh ... and the, all... And I'm thinking, "Man, that looks comfortable." And, and so when I was going through this period where I'm trying to figure out what to do, I was like, "Well, I could be a physical therapist." Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Ken Moench: That can't be too much math. Oh, that's a lie. Every, every class in college is a, is a, is a math class. Is a math class. Sorry, like chemistry is math. Yeah. Physics, math. Math. Yeah. Astronomy, math. Math. I mean, you go through anything, it's all math. So I got through all that anyway, but- I, I finally got to the point where I was down to three classes I needed at the University of Texas, Austin. Ken Moench: They were only offered in the middle of the workday, and I was working full-time as a physical therapy aide at the St. David's. Uh, I worked at several hospitals in Austin, but St. David's Hospital as a physical therapy aide. And, uh I was married and had two kids, and I couldn't, I couldn't just quit my job- Yeah Ken Moench: to go to school. So I thought, um, I'll... maybe I'll go to massage school. Matt Kosterman: Like at night? Ken Moench: Like at night and weekends and stuff. And, and, and then I got through it. Uh, took, it may have been s- nine months to a year. Got through that, and my boss at St. David's, uh, her name's Marsha Dec, uh, thank you, Marsha. She, she's one of the best bosses I've ever had. Ken Moench: Um, and she said, "R- I'd really like you to start doing massage on our clients at the, at the hospital, 'cause you're licensed." Matt Kosterman: And I said, "Okay." Ken Moench: Yeah. So I started working on people, and all I know is the stuff they taught me in school. And I like deep work, so I did deep tissue. And the crazy part is, many of the people that I was working on were pain-free in one or two sessions, when the physical therapy staff hadn't been able to get 'em there in weeks or months. Matt Kosterman: In weeks or months, just 'cause you were going deep. Ken Moench: I was just- Matt Kosterman: You just had an instinct. Ken Moench: I was going into the tissue. And, and what the, what the- But Matt Kosterman: you didn't know this ischemic- Ken Moench: No, no, no. I, I- You didn't know any of this stuff at the time ... I didn't know any of this stuff. I was just going deep. As a matter of fact, the doctors there nicknamed it marrow massage. Matt Kosterman: Marrow massage. Ken Moench: Like, like I was getting so deep- You're- ... I was getting into the bone marrow. And that, that's the name they came up with. I, I didn't have anything to do with that. That's great. And I thought it was funny, but, uh... Anyway, and then, then I, I said, "Listen, Marsha, I, I, I'm making nine bucks an hour. Ken Moench: You're charging 168 bucks an hour for my time. I have no benefits. I've got two kids and a wife. I've, I've gotta get a raise. I've gotta get some benefits." And she said, "I agree with you. Let me run it up the chain." Well, nobody saluted, you know? Nobody saluted. No. And so I, then I started working in the evenings, picking up clients, doing deep massage. Ken Moench: When I got to one or two clients a day, I went to half days. When I got to three or four a day, 'cause I can do math- Matt Kosterman: Yeah, Ken Moench: yeah, yeah ... but that was, that was more than... And, and I was only charging 35 bucks an hour for home visits and office visits. Matt Kosterman: Okay. For a home... You were going to them? Ken Moench: I was going to them. Matt Kosterman: Wow. Ken Moench: Wow. So yeah. And, and so I got very busy very quickly. Matt Kosterman: Well, the hospital probably didn't want you 'cause you were, you, you were fixing people that- Ken Moench: Well, that might have been part of the conversation too. You weren't, Matt Kosterman: you weren't coming back. They weren't coming back for- ... for weeks of $170 sessions. Ken Moench: Correct. Matt Kosterman: Right? Ken Moench: Uh-huh. Matt Kosterman: You were, you were too and done and went on. Ken Moench: I don't, I don't think Marsha was worried about that. She was really trying to fix people. Matt Kosterman: Of course she was. Ken Moench: But I'm sure upper management was like, "What's going on here?" Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Ken Moench: Anyway, so that's, that's how I got started down this path. And, and I have to say this at the outset. Ken Moench: I, I, I prayed for wisdom, knowledge, and discernment. About how to help people get out of pain faster. Matt Kosterman: Okay. Ken Moench: Because I... All I was dealing with for the past six years was doing physical therapy and seeing all these people come in broken, and they never left really whole. And I thought, "There's gotta be a better way than this." Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Ken Moench: And, and God knows th- our bodies, and so I, I thought I'd go to the source. And I prayed for this, and then this, I believe that this, this method came out of, uh- Asking ... from that prayer. Matt Kosterman: Asking Ken Moench: for it. Asking. Matt Kosterman: Asking for the guidance. Yes. Ken Moench: And so anyway, I, I took three very rudimentary classes, like, like myofascial release 101. Ken Moench: Uh- From Matt Kosterman: Barnes or from- Ken Moench: No, this was from Jan Hutchison. Okay. She's a, a l- local PT. I'm not sure if she's still... She probably isn't. Um, but Jan, when it was, it was like a six or a 12-hour course on a weekend. Matt Kosterman: Uh-huh. Ken Moench: I went to somebody else for trigger point and somebody else for, um, uh, deep tissue. And so there are three very rudimentary- And it was Matt Kosterman: after massage school? Ken Moench: After massage school. After massage school. It Matt Kosterman: was just like Ken Moench: to- 'Cause I- ... Matt Kosterman: build, build your skillset ... Ken Moench: these were all deep work that I knew worked. Matt Kosterman: Yeah, yeah. Ken Moench: And so what I did was just started playing with combining these things one together. And when I finally kind of... I would... And I was practicing on my clients 'cause... Ken Moench: And I says, "Okay, if I try this deeper," and they're like, "Should go ahead." Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Ken Moench: So when I really started implementing that, I had several dozen clients that were coming on a pretty regular basis, and then I started doing this work on them, and I fixed them all. Matt Kosterman: They didn't co- They weren't coming anymore. Ken Moench: They didn't have to come anymore because they were, they, they didn't have these things all the time. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. But they... Yeah. I mean, I, I, I've had, I don't know how many hundred massages in the last 15 years. Ken Moench: Yeah. Matt Kosterman: And I enjoy them. Ken Moench: Right. Matt Kosterman: They, they're great, you know? Ken Moench: But it doesn't change much. Matt Kosterman: Didn't, not for long. Ken Moench: Right. No. Matt Kosterman: I mean, it's, it's lovely and it's relaxing, and it would get me a few days and I'd play tennis some more, and, and then I'd be right back in the soup again. Ken Moench: Right. Matt Kosterman: And, and I've done a lot of bodywork beyond that. I mean, the myofascial stuff that I do with Jonathan Tripodi, who I've interviewed, was, was amazing. Matt Kosterman: And, and what I was realizing, I just had to, I had to run a quick errand to pick up a s- an SD card for this podcast, and I was thinking about it and You know, I've done all of this work to release the emotional charge that I had carried in my body- Right ... for so long. Um, you know, sex and drugs and rock 'n' roll, basically. Matt Kosterman: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. You know, all the things, body work and, and it's all been great, and I loved it all. And, and it, and it did get rid of... Like, there is very little charge left in my body. Mm-hmm. Like, you just worked on me for three hours, and it never brought out- Ken Moench: Right ... Matt Kosterman: any kind of emotion or anything. Right. Um, and, and so I've been frustrated lately with the fact that the charge is gone, so what the hell- Ken Moench: Right Matt Kosterman: is still holding on in my body? Why? And I can tell my nervous system is still not f- you know, still not fully landed. Right. 'Cause having done a lot of psychedelics, I know what that feels like to have a f- fully relaxed nervous system. Right. It's beautiful. Um, and d- and I'm, I'm feeling now more on the way to that after doing several hours on your table than I have, and it's Because the, the charger's all gone, but the muscle, the everything was still holding Every- Ken Moench: everything will, like- ' Matt Kosterman: Cause of the chain, 'cause you work down- Right Matt Kosterman: a very specific order. Ken Moench: Right. You have to, you s- you have to start it at the root. And, and for, for anything, well, lower and upper extremity, the, the hip flexors, the psoas and iliacus muscles, and the a- adjacent muscles around those that are being pinched because those things are so tight. One pulls on the spine, the other one pulls the hips- The hips Ken Moench: forward. And so if you ever see an older person walk around stooped at the waist, their hip flexors are way too tight, and it's pulling them forward, and they can't stand up straight because it's just so painful. And Matt Kosterman: so, and so they've sat for too long. They've driven a- They- ... truck or they- And Ken Moench: they've slept in- on- in a fetal position- Right Ken Moench: with their knees pulled up at night and that type of thing. And so, um, that's, that's the kind of thing that we're looking for is like, okay, what is the root cause of this and, and, and how do we unwind this? And- Matt Kosterman: Because I, I've had, I've had all of these various muscles. I've had deep stuff done to them. Ken Moench: Right. Matt Kosterman: I've had dry needling- Mm-hmm ... which is no picnic, um, and that'll release things. I've not ever had them, you know, it's like a combination lock. Ken Moench: Mm-hmm. Matt Kosterman: You gotta hit the tumblers. Ken Moench: It's, it's, it, yeah. It's, it's like a- Right, and- ... puzzle box ... Matt Kosterman: like a puzzle box, yeah. Ken Moench: You have to get the right one out- Rooted is kind of what everyone's talking Ken Moench: at the right Matt Kosterman: time. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Ken Moench: And, and- And Matt Kosterman: then it cascades ... Ken Moench: the, the, the reason for that is, is you have electrical charge through your body, and the, it starts, uh, lumbar spine and neck, depending on which area of the body you're working on, and then all of the, the nerves that get pinched in your lumbar spine and your hips will travel into your glutes, your hamstrings, your calves, so your whole posterior chain there gets tight. Ken Moench: But even above that, all of the erector muscles all the way up to your neck will actually get tight because your hip flexors are tight because they attach to your spine. So- Matt Kosterman: And Ken Moench: so they're Matt Kosterman: compensating and pulling and- Ken Moench: Exactly right ... yeah. So you, it... And, and the thing is, like, you know if you've been to the doctor, they'll give you muscle relaxers and, and painkillers and anti-inflammatories and all. Ken Moench: None of that touches your fascia. Right. You can get your muscles to relax like crazy and just be completely zombied out, but the fascia remembers the length that those muscles w- have been in- Mm-hmm ... so that that's what your body thinks they should be in. And until you can get the muscle and the fascial sheath release- Starting at the source all the way down the chain where these things have been referring to, nothing really changes Because Matt Kosterman: it... Matt Kosterman: Right. And, and I was getting the fascia released- Ken Moench: Mm-hmm ... Matt Kosterman: through the fascial work, and I was losing the emotional- Ken Moench: Right ... Matt Kosterman: charge that was stored, however it's stored. Ken Moench: Right. Matt Kosterman: And, and I, and I wasn't also going down the chain and releasing the muscles. Ken Moench: Correct. Well, in, in addition to that, your sleep posture wasn't helping. Matt Kosterman: Right. And, yeah, which, yeah. And, Ken Moench: and that- Right, right ... and all... So, so all of those things add up to things maintaining what feels like a comfortable position, but what you're actually doing is shortening the muscle so there's no tension on the attachment, so it stops hurting. So Matt Kosterman: it stops hurting. Ken Moench: And that, Matt Kosterman: you're right. Ken Moench: And then the side sleep- Imagine, imagine pulling your hair. So my hand and my arm is the muscle, my hair is the tendon, and my scalp is the bone. If I pull on my hair, my scalp hurts, but there's nothing wrong with my scalp But if I lengthen the muscle and the fascia that's attached to the tendon, then it releases. Ken Moench: Now I can move my head like I want to- Matt Kosterman: Right ... Ken Moench: and it doesn't hurt. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Ken Moench: And so that's every joint in your body. Matt Kosterman: Yeah, and I, I'm, I'm a side and stomach sleeper, which are the worst positions- The Ken Moench: very worst ... Matt Kosterman: to, to sleep in. It- But, but sleeping on my back is not comfortable because I always sleep, try to sleep flat on my back. Ken Moench: Right. Matt Kosterman: And, and, and Ken has given me some pillow recommendations and some wedges that I'm gonna buy- Right ... to, to, to suspend the body better. Ken Moench: They basically put you in a, in a zero gravity position. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Ken Moench: So it takes the stress off of all of those areas. And I, I actually got Matt set up on the wedges and pillows before I even worked on him- Matt Kosterman: Right Ken Moench: just to show him what it would feel like, and it was comfortable. Matt Kosterman: Super comfortable. Ken Moench: Even though I hadn't worked on him yet and released everything. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Ken Moench: But had you lied down flat, laid down flat on the table, that would've been really uncomfortable. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Ken Moench: So our job basically is to get people comfortable in a neutral position so they can, they can sleep in a neutral position, so they can move fully through a range of motion that is, is ergonomically correct and comfortable. Matt Kosterman: Yeah, 'cause I would go to... I would feel good someti- good sometimes at night. Mm-hmm. I'd go to sleep and I'd wake up stiff- Ken Moench: Mm-hmm ... Matt Kosterman: achy, tired. I wake up in the middle of the night. Five out of seven nights of the week I'm a- I'm awake, I'm wide awake. The system is on for an hour, 90 minutes. Ken Moench: Right. Matt Kosterman: Um, and, and I, I actually took a nap. Matt Kosterman: I told Ken this when I got here. I took a nap the other day. I fell asleep on my sofa, kind of sitting in that position. I didn't have my knees raised, but I was- Right ... I was sitting, and I, I went into a deep REM sleep and cr- like, crazy dreams right in the middle of the afternoon. Yeah. But I'm ex- 'cause I'm not getting that sleep. Ken Moench: Mm-hmm. Matt Kosterman: I'm having some dreams, but they're kind of faint and they're- Ken Moench: Right ... Matt Kosterman: you know, just kind of dipping into it a little bit. Ken Moench: Yeah. You took enough stress off of your body that it was able to relax enough to get into REM sleep. Matt Kosterman: To get into REM sleep. Yeah. Which I haven't been doing. Ken Moench: Right. Matt Kosterman: And I'm, I'm just... Matt Kosterman: I shouldn't be this tired. Ken Moench: Yeah. Your bed shouldn't be your enemy. And, and the problem is a, a flat surface is not ideal for somebody who hasn't had ev- Like, I have clients that can sleep flat on their back- No problem ... just a pillow and, and they can... and that's the way that they sleep now because they've, we've gotten everything opened up and lengthened. Matt Kosterman: Ah, I see. Okay. Ken Moench: And so what that does also is it, it increases blood supply and circulation throughout your body all night long so it can actually repair itself. If you're on your side, you're smashing your shoulders. If your knees are pulled up, you're shortening your hip flexors, your hamstrings, and your glutes. Ken Moench: You're doing all of these things, then you wake up. It's no wonder... Like, if you, if you sleep on one side, you know you can't stay on that side all night long, 'cause that gets to be really uncomfortable. Yeah. You'll come out of REM sleep to turn. To turn. And then you get on your other side, now you're in another inherently uncomfortable position that you'll have to turn out of eventually again anyway. Ken Moench: And so people wake up after tossing and turning all night long, coming out of REM sleep, trying to get back to sleep, and they're tighter and stiffer and more tired than when they went to bed. Matt Kosterman: Mm-hmm. Ken Moench: So that's not resting. Matt Kosterman: No. Ken Moench: So resting is getting your body opened up and comfortable so you can actually recover. Ken Moench: 'Cause that's... I- if you're an athlete, guess what? Recovery is so important. Yeah. Guess what the most important part is? Sleep. It's recovery. Sleep. Matt Kosterman: Sleep. Ken Moench: Yeah. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Ken Moench: And that's when your body... Like, if your computer's not working, unplug it, then plug it back in. Yeah. Right, right, right. That's what sleep is supposed to do for Matt Kosterman: you. Matt Kosterman: Right, right. For your body. Ken Moench: Yes. Matt Kosterman: Well, and, and, and you traced all of this back actually to in the womb. You have a book- Ken Moench: Correct. Yeah ... that Matt Kosterman: you've Ken Moench: written. Got a copy right over there. It's, it's, it's, uh- What's the, uh- It's called Every Baby Hurts. Okay. It's available at, I think m- it's on... It's available online almost any place. Ken Moench: Sure. If you go to Barnes & Noble, you can get it. If you go to Amazon, you can get it. Matt Kosterman: Every Baby Hurts. Ken Moench: Every Baby Hurts. And Matt Kosterman: it's Moench, M-O-E-N-C-H- Right ... spells the last name. Ken Moench: And it's, it's, uh, Matt Kosterman: it w- Yeah, talk about that a Ken Moench: bit right there ... if you... Look, the reason I wrote this book was this, and this, uh, we, you and I haven't talked about this yet. Ken Moench: Uh, we, my, my daughter, Lauren, my oldest daughter, Lauren, who runs the back end of our business now, and she's amazing. Um, if you read about all the stuff she does, I gave her a, a big chunk of time on, on the credits in, in the book. Um, she was having her first baby in Baton Rouge, and I was in Austin just r- just working night and day, and my schedule was b- booked out a couple of weeks. Ken Moench: And, and, um, and so it took me about three weeks to get to Baton Rouge before I was able to see my grandson, whose name is, uh, Austin. And- He was screaming all the time. He was, he was always fussy. He was... And like, and Lauren said from the time he came out of the womb, he was just screaming like crazy. And she asked the nurses, "Oh, is she o- is he okay?" Ken Moench: And they said, "Oh yeah, that's normal." All right. That's Matt Kosterman: normal. Ken Moench: Yeah. Just keep that in the back of your mind. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Ken Moench: So then she, she gets home. Every time they change his diaper, he screams like they're ripping his face off. And I, and I was like, she's describing this to me over the phone, like, I don't- Matt Kosterman: You'd not, you'd not worked on any babies? Ken Moench: Never worked on a baby before. Never Matt Kosterman: worked on a baby before then. No. This is how many years ago? Ken Moench: Uh, he's now 14. Matt Kosterman: Okay. Oh, wow. Okay, yeah. Ken Moench: So, so he... Anyway, I get there after three weeks, and he's... They're changing his diaper. He's screaming his head off, and we're trying to just brainstorm and just figure out... Ken Moench: Well, it was more of a drizzle that day because we couldn't figure out- ... what, what it was. And so we went to bed I was awakened at 5:30 in the morning by these same screams, and it occurred to me that, well, they're pulling his legs out, and his legs were probably pulled up higher in the womb than they were before- Matt Kosterman: Mm-hmm Ken Moench: or- Matt Kosterman: Now ... Ken Moench: since- Yeah ... now. And, and so those muscles probably got tight, and it probably feels like they're ripping flesh when they try to pull his leg out. So I went in the other room and I said, "I think I can help him. I think I figured this out." And she goes, "Whatever you wanna do." And she is, she's like, she's desperate now. Ken Moench: Yeah. She's, at that time- Three weeks of no sleep ... she said, "No sleep," and all this stuff. Yeah. So I, I, I have a picture in the book. I'm, I'm wearing a pair of pajama pants with a hole in it, and, and I've got Austin's legs facing me. And so just like you, I put my, my left hand in his left h- hip flexor- Matt Kosterman: Mm-hmm Ken Moench: and he screamed like I was ripping his face off. Matt Kosterman: Mm-hmm. Ken Moench: And s- so then I worked the muscle through the range of motion, and after a while, happy baby again. I went, "Cool, maybe that was it." I said, "Let's just kinda check them all out- Matt Kosterman: Mm-hmm ... Ken Moench: while we're here." So I, I, I put my right hand in his right hip flexor, and there was no reaction whatsoever. Matt Kosterman: Oh. Ken Moench: And I, and I said, "That's weird." And my daughter said, "No, Dad, it's not." And I said, "Why?" She goes, "Every sonogram during the pregnancy, his left foot was by his left ear." Matt Kosterman: Wow. Ken Moench: Wow. And the, and the other leg was down. Matt Kosterman: Was down, extended. Ken Moench: So it created imbalance in the tissue from right to left and front to back- Matt Kosterman: Sure Ken Moench: because that hip flexor would eventually pull his hips forward, which would cause his psoas on the opposite side to tighten. Anyways, a whole chain reaction. So then we got on his low back. That was terrible. Matt Kosterman: That was bad. Ken Moench: And then, uh, I think we did a little bit with his quads and hamstrings, calves, and anterior tib and all that with his lower extremities. Ken Moench: And then I got on his neck, and that was, that was just... It was as bad as his low back. Matt Kosterman: Oh, the neck was. Ken Moench: Because it was all cocked like this and back this way in the womb. Okay. That showed up in the sonograms too. From the picture, yeah. And so got him all opened up, got his neck all opened up, and he was just snoring with his arms completely outstretched over his head and his legs out straight. Ken Moench: I'd never seen a baby in this position before because my kids didn't get any of this work 'cause I didn't know it. Matt Kosterman: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So like the ultimate happy baby. Ken Moench: I... Yes, yes. Absolutely completely stretched out and comfortable for the first time in his life. He had stopped crying when they changed his diaper. Ken Moench: That was the last time that he cried He Matt Kosterman: cried Ken Moench: And, and he... anyways, an amazing kid. Very smart. Um, but that wasn't the reason I wrote the book. I thought that was interesting. I thought it was interesting because it was such a small human being. Matt Kosterman: Mm-hmm. Ken Moench: But there was a problem and I, and we fixed it, and that's what we do every day. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Ken Moench: So 20 months later, my granddaughter, Lauren had another baby, Calla And she came out, I was there. Never cried. Was the, the picture of just cuteness and, and cuddliness- Oh ... and just, just the, like the best baby ever. And my daughter asked the nurse, "Is my baby okay?" And they said, "What do you mean?" "She's not crying." Ken Moench: "Well, that's normal." Matt Kosterman: Well, which one is it? Ken Moench: So, well- Which one's n- which one's normal? Okay. So if you think about it this way, billions of babies have been born all across the planet for a very long time, and, and th- they have every sort of configuration that you can imagine. Some cry a lot, some cry a little bit, some are, you know, farting all the time. Ken Moench: Right. Some are this, that, and the other thing. But, so everything is normal if you throw a billion at it. Matt Kosterman: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Ken Moench: So that's where we've gotten to. It's like, well, babies cry. Babies don't cry. Well, that's normal. They, they ... And so anyway, so- Matt Kosterman: What did her sonograms look like? Was she... W- Was, uh, was- Oh, she was, Ken Moench: she was a mess. Ken Moench: She was a mess. She was a mess on Matt Kosterman: the sonogram. Ken Moench: Yeah. She was folded clam shell in two. Matt Kosterman: Really? Ken Moench: And her head was all tucked back. And, and but she was m- primarily in that position. And so, uh, and so maybe it could've been the fact that she was newborn and the ligaments and tendons in the joints were way looser at that point than, than they would be- That makes sense Ken Moench: weeks later. Matt Kosterman: Okay. Ken Moench: And, and it could b- just be each one of them has a slightly- Did you work on her? ... different system. Oh y- well, I wasn't going to. Matt Kosterman: Oh, okay. Ken Moench: As a matter of fact, I, um, I was commenting on how calm and peaceful and cuddly and stuff that Calla was. Yeah. And she goes, "Yeah, so, Dad, when are you gonna work on her?" Ken Moench: And I, and I said, "Honey, I'm not. There, I d- I work on broken things- Matt Kosterman: Right, right, Ken Moench: right ... and people and stuff." And, and she said, "Yeah, I, I know, Dad, but, but I was... When you gonna work on her?" And I, and I realized that I was, I was, I was not approaching this correctly, so I, I put my adult man brain on and I said, um, "Okay, so when would you like me to work on her?" Ken Moench: There. Which was the correct question. That was the correct Matt Kosterman: response. Ken Moench: And then she said, "Tomorrow." And I said, "Okay." Matt Kosterman: Ah. " Ken Moench: Fine." I thought it was gonna be a big nothing burger. I was gonna have a I-told-you-so moment, uh, which is never good if you're in a relationship- No ... just telling you. Matt Kosterman: Right. Ken Moench: Um, so she, she said, "How about, how about tomorrow?" Ken Moench: I said, "Okay." So the next day when she was home, I put her in my lap and I, and I started on her, her left hip flexor with my left hand, and she screamed like I was ripping her face off. First time we'd heard her cry so far. And I got that hip opened up, and then she was a happy baby again. All right. And then I put my right hand in her right one, and it was... Ken Moench: She screamed like I was ripping her face off again. Matt Kosterman: Super tight. Ken Moench: And then I got in her low back. Her low back was worse than both hip flexors, took way longer to release, and then I got on her neck, and her neck was worse than everything we'd worked on so far. Matt Kosterman: Wow. Ken Moench: But by the time we got done, she was snoring, arms overhead- Love that Ken Moench: legs out straight, and completely comfortable in that position for the first time. And I looked at Calla, and I looked at Lauren, and I looked back at Calla, and I said, "You know what? If that baby hurts, every baby hurts." Matt Kosterman: But she seemed fine. Ken Moench: She was perfect. And it's like, then it was light bulb. Now, I, uh, l- let me back up just a couple steps. Ken Moench: Several years before that, I was reading a book by Leo Tolstoy. Uh, he wrote War and Peace, which I'd never read 'cause it's too thick. And, and, and so I read this one. It's c- it's called A Confession. It's in paperback. You can get it on Amazon. Uh, A Confession and Other Religious Writings. And I, and I also know that Leo wrote about the human condition. Ken Moench: He wrote about politics. He wrote about religion. Yeah. He wrote about all these different things, and so eloquently, and it's just so... And I thought, "Man, this guy's probably thought of everything." And then if you add up all the, the people that are kind of at that level throughout history, it's... I, I thought there, there's probably not an original thought left. Matt Kosterman: Okay. Sure. Ken Moench: There probably isn't. And then it occurred to me, maybe there is. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Ken Moench: And so I prayed for an original thought that I could have before I died that would help humanity Ken Moench: When I said, "If that baby hurts, every baby hurts" Matt Kosterman: That was it. Ken Moench: It was like a movie. You know how like when somebody is just, a billion downloads all at one time- Yeah ... and it's like flashes- Yeah, yeah ... and all this other stuff. Yeah, Matt Kosterman: yeah, yeah. Ken Moench: It was like, it was kids, it was like, "Whoa." Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Ken Moench: There's your original thought. Ken Moench: And, and the very first clear thought that I had after all of that dump into my brain was babies being shaken- Matt Kosterman: Mm. Mm-hmm ... Ken Moench: by a caregiver- Mm-hmm ... that is so frustrated and, and on their last nerve, and, and they, they're, they, they're working three shifts- Yeah ... a day, and they had about an hour that they could nap before they had to get to their next job. Ken Moench: And the, and they l- did everything. They fed them, they burped them, they changed their diaper, and they, and they got them to s- to, to fall asleep, and then they tried to put them into their crib. And as soon as they laid them down and their legs and arms and stuff opened up, they were getting pulled on, and the baby just comes screaming again. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Ken Moench: And out of frustration- There's an organization called the Shaken Baby Foundation. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Ken Moench: It's international. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Ken Moench: And, and I, I just... That's, that was my overriding thought. I... So I drove back to, to Austin, I bought a new laptop, and I started writing that book that day. Matt Kosterman: That day. Ken Moench: And because it was just... Ken Moench: And I've been... It... Look, this, the journey of getting this book published was ridiculous. Matt Kosterman: Wow. Ken Moench: Now, the only, I think, one of the positives is that everything that I wrote 11, now it's 12 years ago, has been since corroborated by s- by, uh, research. So- Matt Kosterman: I, I've seen people working on babies on Instagram. Ken Moench: Mm-hmm. Ken Moench: Mm-hmm. Matt Kosterman: Probably read, they probably read your book. I don't, I don't know. Ken Moench: Or, or- Or they- ... the, there... Look, there have been body workers that have been very good and very intuitive and all that kind of stuff. Yeah. I don't think they're applying this method to that. Matt Kosterman: Mm-hmm. Ken Moench: Um, a lot of it's, you know, it... Like, it... Ken Moench: The, the culture in India is to, to, to massage babies and, and, and rub- Oh, Matt Kosterman: sure, Ken Moench: sure ... and all that kind of stuff. That's... It's, it's part of their culture. It's just what they do. And so people have been doing that for a long time. But getting in deep enough to actually cause the... to get on something that's tight enough to cause them pain- Matt Kosterman: Yeah Ken Moench: is, is- You're not gonna- ... a bridge too far. Most parents are never gonna Matt Kosterman: do that. Most people are never, Ken Moench: they're not gonna do that. And so it's the kind of work that we do with all of our adults, and, and so I basically applied the same principles to an infant as, as to an adult. You modify pressure, of course- Sure, sure Ken Moench: because they're a baby. But, like, conditions like torticollis, where the head, kid's got their head- Okay ... cocked all one way- Mm-hmm ... and they can't turn so they have to get a helmet because their head's going lopsided on one side- Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah ... all that type of thing. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Ken Moench: We fixed that in one visit. Matt Kosterman: One visit? Ken Moench: And, and if they go the traditional route, they're gonna go to g- physical therapy for over a year, and it never gets better. And, and Matt Kosterman: wear this helmet and- Ken Moench: Yeah, and wear the helmet ... and all that kind of stuff. And the helmet's $4,000, and then- Oh my gosh ... therapy is this much, and insurance companies are paying out, but they're... Ken Moench: Anyway. Matt Kosterman: Well, and even just, even just if you... If, if I project it further and they get into school and I think about myself and the conversation that we had, I don't think... I'm still not there. I haven't tried it, but I don't think I've ever been comfortable sitting crisscross applesauce. Ken Moench: Right. Matt Kosterman: I, you know, I- Ken Moench: Well, it's one of the phrases- It- Ken Moench: that you said when we were talking. It's like, it seems like it's always been this way. Matt Kosterman: It seems like it's always been tight. Ken Moench: Okay. So- When we hear that now, we realize that this stuff has been tight since pre-birth. Matt Kosterman: Since pre-birth. Ken Moench: Okay, and so let's, let's just, I, I give you- I, I had Matt Kosterman: back problems started in high school. Ken Moench: Yes. I can, I can give you a solid example of this. Uh, you fly a lot. Matt Kosterman: Mm-hmm. Ken Moench: Okay. I'm about to get on a flight that's about four hours long, uh, tomorrow. Um, and, and, uh, I don't feel the same when I get off the plane as when I got on, because I've been having to be in that position- Matt Kosterman: For four hours ... Ken Moench: for four hours. Ken Moench: Even if it's three hours, it may not be good. Matt Kosterman: Mm-hmm. Ken Moench: And so, uh, and I, and I get body work a lot, and I open things up, and if I haven't for a long time, and I've strained something doing something, then that thing will tighten up while I'm sitting there. Matt Kosterman: Okay. Ken Moench: So I got off the plane about a year and a half ago, and I, I literally was limping when I got off the plane. Ken Moench: Mm. This was my right hip was tightened up and, and we got it worked out, but that's just after three or four hours. Babies are in a womb for nine months. Now, they're not big like that for nine months, but the last couple of months of gestation, they have very little room to move. Matt Kosterman: Right. Ken Moench: So, and they- and they're curled up basically like a football. Matt Kosterman: But- And then, and then they're... and then you're taught to swaddle them. Ken Moench: Ye- yes. Well, okay. So- Right ... part of the, part of the, part of the thing with swaddling is this, and this is proof of concept. Every culture in the history of the world swaddles babies. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Ken Moench: Has swaddled ba- every single culture, every single one. Matt Kosterman: Interesting. Ken Moench: Why? Because parents want sleep, and they want their baby to sleep so they can get some sleep. And the only way to do that is to put them back in their pre-birth posture. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Ken Moench: What is that doing? In... Nowadays, what they say is, "Well, that makes them more comfortable. It makes them feel more secure. Ken Moench: That ma-" And it's like, n- it's none of that. What they're doing is shortening the muscles back into the shape that they were in in the womb- That Matt Kosterman: they're Ken Moench: used to ... which takes the pressure off of the attachment points that get tugged on when they extend into a different position. Matt Kosterman: Sure. Ken Moench: And so that makes... Ken Moench: It's more... Okay, this, the reason why, if you say, "But I love s- sleeping on my side because it's comfortable." Okay, that's, you're swaddling yourself- Matt Kosterman: Yes ... Ken Moench: to shorten the muscles so they stop pulling at the attachments. That's comfortable when the pain stops. Matt Kosterman: I mean, for two or three hours it's comfortable- Ken Moench: But- Matt Kosterman: till Ken Moench: it's not ... but, exactly. M- because then you're smashing your shoulder- Right ... and then it hurts, and it's numb. You can't raise it, wondering if it's ever gonna work again. I've done that. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Ken Moench: And, and then you turn on your other side- Yeah ... which is another inherently uncomfortable position. So if you do that over and over again throughout your life, you're literally getting... Ken Moench: The, the... People wonder why old people end up always in a fetal position- Matt Kosterman: Mm, mm-hmm ... Ken Moench: when they die. Matt Kosterman: Mm-hmm. Ken Moench: It's because they- they've started in a fetal position. They kind of got out of it when they were younger and stuff because they were young. And then- Matt Kosterman: But then maybe they go work a desk job. Ken Moench: Yes, they work a desk job for- Right Ken Moench: 30 or 40 years. Matt Kosterman: Yeah, mm-hmm. Ken Moench: And then they're sleeping on their side. They're not getting much sleep. They're, they're smashing stuff, shortening things. And then, and then as they get older, they sit more because they're uncomfortable, and then they sit more, and more, and more, and more. Now they can't stand up without a walker or a cane or something like that. Ken Moench: And if you see an old person walking around, seriously, and they're stooped and bent, it's because their hip flexors are so tight it's pulling them forward because of the posture they've been in for so long. Matt Kosterman: And then they end... And then you see someone like my, my maternal grandmother before she died, like she was hunched over. Matt Kosterman: Yes. And the shoulders come up, and the head goes- Ken Moench: And then the neck gets really tight because it's holding the head up- From fall- ... because that's a big ol... Yes ... Matt Kosterman: from falling forward. Ken Moench: Exactly. Matt Kosterman: Yeah, yeah. Ken Moench: And so it's, it's- Matt Kosterman: But you can work on all that stuff. Ken Moench: Well, Matt Kosterman: look- You said you worked on a 97-year-old ... Ken Moench: well, we... Ken Moench: Look, it's, it's unbelievable. Let me get back to my, my- Oh, yes, yeah ... my analogy, and then we'll talk about that. You have to remember it, though- Mm-hmm ... 'cause I may not. So, um- Matt Kosterman: So the kids are Ken Moench: swaddled ... what if, what if you got on a plane and you were where you could not get out of your chair for two months? Matt Kosterman: Mm-hmm. Ken Moench: Could anybody get off the plane? Matt Kosterman: Yeah, nobody could get Ken Moench: off the plane. They'd send in emergency crews to get people out and then get them to the hospital- On a crane ... and get s- and do some stuff. Because if you have to sit that long, there's no way you can get out of that position if it's two months. Ken Moench: Babies are scrunched like that for the last month or two of their gestation. Mm-hmm. Muscles inside the womb and outside the womb are exactly the same. The reason why babies look all bendy and flexible is because their joints, their ligaments and tendons in their joints are very, very... They're mushy almost- They're mushy Ken Moench: because they have to be able to get through the birth canal- Matt Kosterman: Right ... Ken Moench: without breaking or tearing anything. And so that's why everything is softer then. Same reason a pregnant woman, their ligaments and tendons right before birth soften so that they can get- So that they can open ... the baby out with breaking, without breaking them. Matt Kosterman: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Ken Moench: And so your body does this on purpose, but it's fools people into believing that babies are really flexible. What's flexible is their joints. Their muscles are tight as freaking drums. Yeah, yeah. So that's why their knees are pulled up more. That's why their arms have been all the time, their wrists are curled, and their heads cocked one way. Ken Moench: And so they're just staying in the same position they were in the womb. Matt Kosterman: Well, and then add on to... Then I, and then I'm... I look at it through the lens of trauma. Yeah. And so then I, I, uh, we add that layer on- Ken Moench: Right, Matt Kosterman: right ... i- to, in, in gestational trauma in the, in the womb. The mother's going through whatever. Ken Moench: Mm-hmm. Matt Kosterman: Um, I mean, I know my mother was very, very young when she had me, and, um, there was a lot of stuff going on. There was a lot of stress, and so now you layer that on top- Yeah ... and the nervous system is already on fire coming out. Ken Moench: Right. Well, and that's, and that's, that's if there's a difficult birth. Ken Moench: Right. My, my, my two grandchildren, Lauren's two kids, she basically f- she, she didn't feel any contractions until she went into transition. Matt Kosterman: Oh, wow. Okay. Ken Moench: I mean, she, like, got on the floor and was like, "Oh my God." Yeah, Matt Kosterman: that happened in my, my, with our second baby. Ken Moench: So then she got to the hospital, and she delivered within- 30 minutes Matt Kosterman: Yeah, Amy was the same Ken Moench: And- Matt Kosterman: She was eight centimeters when she hit- Ken Moench: Yeah Matt Kosterman: when she hit triage Ken Moench: Calla basically dropped out m- uh, Lauren was standing up- Matt Kosterman: Oh ... Ken Moench: on the edge of the... She said, "I feel something coming out." The nurse from across the room grabbed one of those sterile pads and ran and slid underneath Lauren- ... and caught Calla before she- Caught the baby ... hit the floor. So there was no birth trauma with either of these kids. Ken Moench: Well, there's the- That was the crazy Matt Kosterman: part ... I mean, there's the birth, there's birth trauma. In fact, I just was either talking to or interviewed somebody who had a medicine journey and relived their birth, and it was a C-section. Ken Moench: Mm-hmm. Matt Kosterman: They relived their birth. I'm just talking about trauma in the womb- Oh, Ken Moench: yeah, yeah Matt Kosterman: if there's, like, an abusive spouse- Oh, Ken Moench: sure ... Matt Kosterman: if there's alcoholism, if there's- And- ... drug use, if there's- Ken Moench: And, and then the trauma just when you come out, if you, if you're in an environment like that. More, the more stress in the house... Look, babies pick up on, on frequency and stress just like a dog will. Matt Kosterman: Absolutely. Ken Moench: Just like a cat will. They, they, they- And they feel it ... sense it. They feel it. It's just, it's just inundating them. So the more stress there is in the house, the more stress the baby feels. The t- the tighter and more restricted they are, the more likely they are to cry, all that type of thing. So when we work on infants- Many, we just, I just, gosh, I just worked on a baby a couple of days ago, and it was 13, it's 13 months old. Ken Moench: Little boy, walking around. And this mom hadn't gotten more than two hours sleep every night for the past- Oh ... 13 months. And she's, so she called, she said, "Look, whatever we have to do to get this taken care of so we can all get some sleep would be great." So- It literally, like it was hard. It, it took me more time to get that baby's right hip flexors opened up than it did on yours. Matt Kosterman: Wow. And- Ken Moench: And so what's happening- And that's why I'm telling you ... that whole time, this, this baby's just screaming. Yeah, yeah, the whole time. And it was like, this is one of the main problems. Yeah. Now we got Ken Moench: on, on his neck. That was also a huge issue. But when we got done, he was laid back and just kind of . Matt Kosterman: Yeah. The nervous system was Ken Moench: recalibrating. It was just... Yeah. It was just settling down. Matt Kosterman: Settling. Ken Moench: And so many times the babies that we work on, like I... This is an outlier. Not everybody gets this benefit, but this... Ken Moench: Well, a friend of mine that I, that I've known since he was playing baseball, I was coaching at the same time he was playing and, and they now has two sons and, and he got the baby monitor, the little Owlet baby monitor put on the foot. It, it measures their breathing and their, and their respiration and their heart rate- Oh, interesting. Ken Moench: Okay ... and all those types of thing. The amount of time they're sleeping. They had a camera so that they- It's like an, it's like an Matt Kosterman: Oura Ring for Ken Moench: a Matt Kosterman: baby. Ken Moench: Yes. Yes. Exactly right. Right. So, so they got to the point after a few months where they put the baby to bed at 7:00 PM And no crib visits till 7:00 AM. No crying. Matt Kosterman: No crying. Ken Moench: Would wake up periodically, amuse itself because it was giggling, and then go back to sleep. And so 12 hours uninterrupted- This is Matt Kosterman: after you did work on them? Ken Moench: Yes. After Matt Kosterman: you worked on them. Ken Moench: And, and we, he brought them to me as soon as they were born and, and we worked on them a, a few months, um- Sure Ken Moench: just to keep opening things up because babies are growing so fast, they're using different muscles- Sure ... that they've never used before- Yeah ... and all that type of thing. So the best recommendation is to, if you can get them in once a month, th- that's, that's ideal. For the first year or so. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Ken Moench: Yeah. And, and we, we quit when we work on them and we can't find anything that's tight. Ken Moench: Okay. It's like, come see me when you see me. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Ken Moench: You know, or if there's something weird that happens or if they fall down or whatever. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. The first time our oldest daughter slept through the night, we thought she died. Ken Moench: Yeah. Well, yeah, everybody's checking on them. It's Matt Kosterman: like- It's like, "Oh, what happened?" Ken Moench: what the heck happened? You know? Yeah. Matt Kosterman: But that, but that, that also brings me to the point that you, you said. So babies are a little bit of an outlier in that you want to see them typically once a, once a month or so for a while, but what's your average time that you see, that you, that you have an adult patient, client comes in? Ken Moench: Well, and it's... Look, we average in the baby visits as well. Matt Kosterman: Oh, that's part of the average? Ken Moench: That's, that's part of the average. Oh, incredible. We, we don't count babies out, but our average number of client visits per year per client is 2.4. Matt Kosterman: Per year per client, two and a half. Ken Moench: Roughly. Yeah. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Yeah. Ken Moench: And I, I would put that against anybody's therapy place anywhere in the world because nobody... Ken Moench: I, I actually did a podcast with a physio- a doctor of physical therapy in Jacksonville, Florida, and I told her that number and she said, "Wait, wait. Per year?" Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Ken Moench: And I said, "Yeah." And, and she said, "That's crazy." Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Ken Moench: And I said, "Yeah, it is." I said, I said, "The, the thing is, we, we... The... When we first started checking this it was 2.5, and then it dropped the next year to 2.3, and we celebrated because it went down." Ken Moench: 'Cause Matt Kosterman: you went down, yeah. You want to fix people. Ken Moench: Any other corporation would be saying, "Get those numbers up." Matt Kosterman: Right. Ken Moench: Hey, hey. Or whatever. There'd be an emergency meeting. But you're not- Get those numbers- ... you're not Matt Kosterman: hurting for business. Ken Moench: No. No. I mean- The, the thing is, when you, when you, when you can get people out of pain for the first time in their life, and they can start playing tennis again, or they can start playing pickleball again, or they can start running or swimming or doing things- Right Ken Moench: that they used to do... It's one of the things we ask all of our clients, "Listen, what can't you do now that you have loved to do but you, you just- Because of the pain ... couldn't because of the pain and restriction and, and you're getting older and all that? Yeah. What really do you love to do that you can't do right now? Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Ken Moench: And so we... They tell us, and we're like, "Okay, let's make that your goal." And one of the guys that did that, he'd, he'd, uh, fallen out of a deer blind- Hmm ... onto bedrock- Matt Kosterman: Hmm ... Ken Moench: and landed on his foot and crushed his foot and his ankle And so they did several surgeries, put it back together, but he couldn't walk down the driveway. Ken Moench: If he stepped on a pebble, it would turn his foot enough, he'd fall to the ground because of the pain. Matt Kosterman: Mm. Ken Moench: And, and I asked him that question. I said, "What, what would you like to do?" And he, he says, "I wanna go on a deer hunt." I said, I said, "Okay." I said, "How many days?" He goes, "10." I said, "So you wanna go on a 10-day deer hunt, no pain?" Ken Moench: He goes, "Yes." I wrote it in his chart. This is, this is now our goal. He had the biggest smile on his face because now his, his goals and mine were aligned. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Ken Moench: My goal was to get him on a 10-day deer hunt. That's what he wanted to do, so we were, we were in lockstep I think I worked on him three times. Matt Kosterman: Okay. Ken Moench: He went on a 10-day deer hunt with no pain. Matt Kosterman: With no pain. And your typical appointment time is like- Is- ... two-ish hours Ken Moench: or- It's a, a hour and a half, two hours. Two hours. Something like that. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Ken Moench: And, and- Crazy ... look, the, the, and people asking what the cost is, "Is it like $2,000 a visit?" Right, right, right. No, no, no. Ken Moench: We haven't raised... Like, i- inflation's gone up quite a bit. Yeah. I haven't raised my rates in several years now. We're, we're at only $200 for a two, for a, for an hour and a half session. Hour Matt Kosterman: and a half. Yeah, that's- Ken Moench: And, and it's... H- here's the reason why. It, it's not because we don't, it's not worth more than that, it's not because, uh, of anything really except that we don't wanna price people out of the ability to get work done if they're in pain. Matt Kosterman: Mm-hmm. Ken Moench: And it's, this isn't a spa day. This is, this isn't a luxury thing. People's lives- And it wa- Matt Kosterman: yeah, it Ken Moench: wasn't super fun ... and their careers depend on being able to, to work and to, and to do things and g- and, and take care of the family without being in pain all the time and, and that type of thing. And so, you know, the phys- the, the typical thing that people compare this to is, is physical therapy or chiropractic. Matt Kosterman: Mm-hmm. Ken Moench: And they're like, "Okay, so if it's..." Let's just say it's $400 for an initial visit. They're gonna go, "Okay, $400 times three time, two to three times a week, times six to eight weeks, I can't afford that." Matt Kosterman: Right. Ken Moench: They, they can do math too. And, and they, they don't under- It's like, no, no, no, our average number of client visits is 2.3 or, or 2.4. Ken Moench: Our, our- You're gonna Matt Kosterman: be at least one. Y- yes. Ken Moench: You, Matt Kosterman: you might be four. Ken Moench: Well- Matt Kosterman: Like, right? Ken Moench: And so, yeah. And some of th- look, some of those people, many of the people come in for, uh, something, they sprain their wrist, they come in, we fix it in one visit. Matt Kosterman: Uh-huh. Ken Moench: And they leave, and then later in the year they've, they tweaked an ankle. Ken Moench: They come in, that's another visit. Okay. And so that counts as two. Matt Kosterman: Right, right. Ken Moench: But it was two separate injuries that were fixed in one visit. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Ken Moench: And so th- and, you know, the, the thing is, we, when people... Look, if you get fixed in 35 visits, that's nothing to write home about, but if you get fixed in one or two when you've ha- been carrying this pain for decades- I mean- Ken Moench: people will tell everyone they've ever met- Matt Kosterman: Yes ... Ken Moench: about Matt Kosterman: this. I'm gonna, I'm laying on the table already thinking of the people that I wanna tell. I mean- Ken Moench: Exactly ... Matt Kosterman: and I mean, 10 visits for me would've been like, oh, you know, a no-brainer. Right. And- I mean, I, I did, you know, I was doing the chiropractic thing- You know, three time, in the beginning- Right Matt Kosterman: three times a week, plus I was getting a massage before and it was probably costing me, you know, 200, 250 bucks a pop. Ken Moench: Yeah. Matt Kosterman: Uh, and then I threw in the PT and, and that wasn't moving the needle- Right ... at all, but that was another 200 bucks on top of it. Right. So, so y- so y- you're working on John Q. Public, John Q. Matt Kosterman: Baby, all the, but also you're working with professional athletes, Olympic performers. You're working with the, you, you guys are the, the, the- Ken Moench: We're the official- ... Austin, Matt Kosterman: Austin ... Ken Moench: official massage therapy providers for the Austin, uh, FC soccer team. So that's an MLS team. It's a, it's the... I mean, they got b- professional bull riding in, in Austin. Matt Kosterman: Okay. Ken Moench: And they've got, uh- Man, that's fun ... like, uh, AAA clubs in Austin, but it's the, the only major sport that is a, a major league- Matt Kosterman: Yeah, and you're one- ... tier one ... you're, you're Ken Moench: the- We're the providers for- ... provider ... for them, and they typically have the lowest off-field time for, uh, soccer related injuries of any team in the MLS. Ken Moench: Yeah. And that's not me working on them. I've worked on some of them, but my, my guy, Jordan, who's my clinic lead in, in Round Rock, takes care of those guys on a weekly basis. Okay. And, and the players that aren't getting hurt are the ones that come in and see him all the time. Matt Kosterman: Ah. Ken Moench: Um, and because they- So they're staying Matt Kosterman: loose Ken Moench: they figured out... Well, I'll give you an example. The, the first day Jordan was in the office, in, in their, in their facility, uh, one of the top guys on the team came in. Uh, he'd just been to the, to the trainer and they did muscle strength testing on him, and they did abduction. Matt Kosterman: Right. Ken Moench: So for a soccer player, really important because they kick with the inside part of their foot, and so the inside part of the leg- Matt Kosterman: Yeah, the adduction, when you squeeze your legs together. Ken Moench: Yes. Correct. Yeah. And so they tested his, his adduction strength. It was 200 pounds. He could, he could- That's good ... force through that thing. So he ran directly over to Jordan and said, "Loosen up my, work on my, my adductors. Just my adductors." And so Jordan gets on his adductors, releases those in a few minutes. Ken Moench: He runs back over to the trainer and said, "Re-test me." Matt Kosterman: Okay. " Ken Moench: Right now. Re-test me." Matt Kosterman: Re-test me. Ken Moench: Okay. Everybody that's listening to this, go ahead and guess in your mind w- what that number was. Matt Kosterman: I'm saying 300. Ken Moench: Okay. It was 400 pounds. Matt Kosterman: 400 pounds. Ken Moench: He doubled his strength- Matt Kosterman: Yeah ... Ken Moench: by doing what? Lengthening the tissue. So, so here, this, this dovetails into sports performance and athletics and all that kind of stuff. Ken Moench: Most people in the sporting world are pushing speed and strength Matt Kosterman: Right Ken Moench: Speed, strength, speed, strength. It's just that, that's just a mantra. The, the thing is, if you work on strength, you're not gonna get faster and you're not gonna get more flexible. If you work on speed, you're not gonna get stronger, you're not gonna get more flexible. Ken Moench: If you work on flexibility- Mm-hmm ... you're gonna get stronger and faster. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. You said you took a Major League pitcher's, uh, fastball up by, like, 14 miles an hour or something. Ken Moench: Well, that's, yeah- Oh, okay ... this is, this is a guy that I'm, that I'm working on currently and, and he won't mind me mentioning this. Ken Moench: He's, he's been on our podcast before. Um, he's, he's one of the starting pitchers for the, for the Baltimore Orioles, and early on in his career, he was hurt. He, he'd, he'd come out in spring training and he'd get through about half the season and he'd hurt something, and now he's on the IL. And it, this happened year after year after year. Ken Moench: He's, he's, uh, he's a, he's a tall guy, he's 6'5" and, and, you know, like 220, but he's a lefty. And, and so- He's a valuable player. Right. And, and they've seen the potential, but the potential keeps getting interrupted by injuries. So when I started working with him after an injury, he was throwing about 82 miles an hour, and, um, currently he's, he's hitting 98. Ken Moench: Um, and since I started working with him, he's not missed a day for injury, and that's been about the past three years. Um- Matt Kosterman: No, no, no injuries ... Ken Moench: he's doing an amazing job, and he's... Look, he's put in the work. I, um, w- my- You Matt Kosterman: loosen it. You, you, you create the flexibility and then he goes and, and he's able to work out harder and, and- Ken Moench: And, and, yes. Ken Moench: And, and then he puts in the time to do the additional stretching in between, uh, visits. Matt Kosterman: Yeah, 'cause you did give me five stretches to do. Ken Moench: Right. Matt Kosterman: It's not just, not just one, one of them. Ken Moench: And, and he changed. Like, when I first met him it was donuts and pizza and cookies and all this stuff. Matt Kosterman: Sure. Ken Moench: And then, you know, there was three or four guys staying in the, in the house and- Yeah, yeah Ken Moench: and as the place was loaded with this stuff and I said, I said, "Dude, you, you need to, you need to clean this up because this is your machine. This is your career." And now he's eating so clean- Matt Kosterman: Mm-hmm ... Ken Moench: and his hydration is where it's supposed to be, and his sleep, he sleeps on his back 100% of the time. He makes sure he warms up exactly where he's supposed to. Ken Moench: He makes sure that he stretches when he's supposed to after he's done so that he's maintaining this- Matt Kosterman: Yeah ... Ken Moench: throughout the, the- Matt Kosterman: Yeah, it's the same as with everything. There, there is no magic pill. Ken Moench: No. Matt Kosterman: Th- this, this magic pill, i- if it's a magic pill, is to release the stuff that heretofore we haven't found- The stuff Matt Kosterman: find a way, a, a- an effective way to release. Ken Moench: Correct. Matt Kosterman: I mean, I've been through a lot of this stuff and- Right ... nothing's come close. Ken Moench: The, the, the stretching part is, is like, but I, I, but I stretch, like, but most people are stretching like their high school coach taught them to stretch. Matt Kosterman: Right. Ken Moench: Push until it hurts and then push harder. Matt Kosterman: And- And, and stretch before you go do something is- Exactly ... has been the, has been the advice. Ken Moench: Correct. And all that that does is leaves you more open to more injury, because if your body's cold when you try to stretch it, you're gonna lengthen the ligaments and tendons, not the muscles, and so your joints become unstable and- ' Matt Kosterman: Cause, 'cause as you hit that resistance, the muscles are the things that are gonna contract. Ken Moench: They're gonna contract. ' Matt Kosterman: Cause tendons don't contract and the ligaments- Correct ... don't contract. Ken Moench: Yeah. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Ken Moench: So the ligaments and tendons will give up before the muscle does. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Ken Moench: And, and so that's, that's the problem. And, and so if you understand that, and while we're talking about this, if you're, if you're an athlete or if you just wanna know when to stretch, you should stretch when you're sweaty. Ken Moench: Like, if you cut the lawn yourself and you're out there and you, and you've gotten, you know, and your, your heart rate up and you're, and you're sweating and all that type of stuff- Worked up a, worked up Matt Kosterman: a lather ... Ken Moench: come back inside, put a towel down, do some stretching. But here's the, here's the key. Only ever stretch to the point where you feel the slightest bit of tension. Ken Moench: Just the slightest bit. Not a lot, just the slightest bit where you're just barely perceiving it. When you get to that point, you stop where you are, take deep breaths, and wait until the tension completely dissipates, and then go to tension again. And I guarantee you that you will start to see results- Mm-hmm Ken Moench: from your stretching, and then that makes it actually kind of fun because you're actually getting more flexible. And I te- I mean, I'll tell you the story that I... I mean, I, I trained for and ran in two marathons. The first one I did all the training just like the trainer said, that you, you're doing hill work, and speed work, and all that type of thing, and I showed up at the start line- And Matt Kosterman: you were Ken Moench: about, you said Matt Kosterman: you were about Ken Moench: 40, 37? Ken Moench: with knee braces. I was actually, yeah, about 37 years old. There you go. And I had knee braces on both knees 'cause both of them hurt. Matt Kosterman: From all the training. Ken Moench: And starting, and before I ran the marathon- Before you even ran. Matt Kosterman: Yeah ... Ken Moench: and so I, I finished in, uh, four hours and 20 minutes and, uh, I, I was actually being passed by some old ladies. Ken Moench: Actually they're probably my age now, uh, but- Matt Kosterman: Yeah, 20 years Ken Moench: older ... old ladies, and, and, and they were saying, "Are you okay?" Matt Kosterman: Sure how old are Ken Moench: you? And asking me if I'm okay, and I'm just like, "Oh my God, no I'm not. It... I think I'll get there though." So I finished and I felt like I'd been hit by a Mack truck. I was like, "This is, this is awful." Ken Moench: So two years later I got it into my head that I wanted to run faster. I was gonna do another one. I wanted to run faster with less effort. So I thought the way to do that would be to come to, to get more flexible so I could increase my stride length. And that would be easier with less effort. So here's what I did. Ken Moench: I took my watch off. I didn't wear a Fitbit. I didn't pay attention to what the coaches said or anything 'cause I didn't run with a team at that point. And all that I was doing was getting up every day and running until I was tired, but I only ran at a pace that was absolutely comfortable for me. Like, if I was breathing too hard, I slowed down. Matt Kosterman: Slow jog, Ken Moench: right. If, uh... Yes. If I, if I, if I felt something twingy, I slowed down. When I felt better, my body got warmed up, I would naturally w- I would go a little bit faster. I never brought my watch with me 'cause I didn't wanna time my splits. I didn't wanna be looking at that. I wanted to pay attention to the billions of cells all over my body that are telling me what I should and shouldn't be doing. Ken Moench: 'Cause Matt Kosterman: otherwise you get into that competition mindset. Ex- Ken Moench: exactly. Right? That's, that's the whole thing. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Ken Moench: So yeah, I had to put, set that aside. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Ken Moench: So, uh, then when I got home, my muscles were all engorged with blood, which is when they're amenable to be stretched, and I stretched from 20 minutes to 40 minutes, sometimes an hour, but I only stretched to the point where I felt the slightest bit of tension. Ken Moench: I went to tension, and then- Breathed ... and then breathed, and then when that released, I went some more. Here's what happened. In five weeks, now I'm at this point 39, almost 40 years old. In five weeks, I was able to bend forward and put my nose between my shins with my arms wrapped completely around my legs in a full pike position- And your knees Matt Kosterman: locked Ken Moench: with no, yes, with no tension in my, my hamstrings, my glutes, or my low back. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. How many runners can do that? Ken Moench: M- most of them cannot. Matt Kosterman: I mean, other than probably- Ken Moench: Not even close ... Matt Kosterman: the Africans that, that- Ken Moench: Well, there's... Yes ... Matt Kosterman: that are just built differently that, that win all the races. Ken Moench: Correct. But it's, it's... So that was, that was eye-opening. Ken Moench: So, so now my stride length is much longer, and then I got stronger through that stride length. Matt Kosterman: And your, and your, your glutes are firing you forward. Everything- Your hamstrings are firing you forward. Exactly. So are your hip flexors. Like- Ken Moench: Everything's firing like, when it's supposed to. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Ken Moench: And so I show up at the start line. Ken Moench: I've got no braces on 'cause I'm not in any pain at all. I'm feeling great. Matt Kosterman: Mm-hmm. Ken Moench: And, uh, it turns out during that race I was running sub six, uh, no sub seven-minute miles, so I was running 6:45 and 6:50-minute miles through mile 20. Matt Kosterman: Through mile- Ken Moench: So I was on pace, and I'll tell the end of the story that I didn't tell you before, but I was on pace to finish this thing in three hours. Matt Kosterman: Okay. Ken Moench: And I felt like a million bucks. Yeah. I passed the 20-mile mark, and I'm like, "All right, just six to go." Here's what happened. Earlier that year, there was a hurricane that, and that came through. There was massive flooding downtown. Matt Kosterman: Okay. Ken Moench: And, and RunTex, that was the sponsor of this, this run, was in off Congress, and it got flooded, so they delayed the start of this marathon by about a month and a half, maybe two months. Ken Moench: So they finally got it reorganized. Now the, the start time temperature was in the upper 80s. Matt Kosterman: Oh, it's late in the season. Ken Moench: And- Matt Kosterman: You're doing it in the summer ... Ken Moench: and then it got into the upper 90s, and the humidity was, like, around 80 or 90%. So I'm drinking every water station, but I got past mile 20 And then I stopped sweating completely. Ken Moench: Oh. That had never happened in my lifetime. Matt Kosterman: Oh, that's not good. Ken Moench: Because I sweat like a horse. And, and so I stopped sweating, and then I noticed that my skin got hot and red. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Ken Moench: And then I started getting nauseous. Now, I'd been in medical community for quite a while. I knew the next step was organ system failure. Ken Moench: Yeah, yeah, Matt Kosterman: yeah. Ken Moench: So I waved a cop down. He got somebody to come pick me up. They brought me to the, the tent, and they put two units of IV fluid in my, in my body. Yeah. Now, what they put into me was 18,000 milligrams of salt- Salt ... water. Matt Kosterman: Mm-hmm. Ken Moench: 18,000 milligrams of salt. Had I had a little container of sea salt and just put it underneath my tongue throughout that race, I would've finished in, in probably under three hours. Matt Kosterman: No problem. But you, at this point, you, at this point you- I Ken Moench: didn't Matt Kosterman: know that ... you, you didn't know about- Ken Moench: I didn't know all that ... Matt Kosterman: hydration and mineralization- Ken Moench: No, no ... and all this that you need for your body. No, it, I mean, nobody ever breathed the word electrolyte- Matt Kosterman: Right ... Ken Moench: that many years ago. Yeah, this was 30 years ago. Ken Moench: That was over 30 years ago. 30 Matt Kosterman: years ago, right. Ken Moench: So anyway, it, it was, it was phenomenal. What, what, what I set out to do, I did. I, I, I, I've never been a runner. I, I've done a lot of different sports, but I just, running was never my thing. But that day I felt exactly like a runner. Wonderful. I was full stride, no restrictions, no pain, breathing easy, just, just having a great time. Matt Kosterman: Amazing. Ken Moench: And so that was, I knew it was, it was the way that I prepped for that race, that was, that, that was the reason I was able to do that. And that, there, there's nothing else that would, would explain that. Matt Kosterman: Sure. Absolutely. No, that's amazing. I mean, I don't, I don't run unless I'm chased. Ken Moench: There you Matt Kosterman: go. I don't even play, or play tennis. Matt Kosterman: But I, I did run, I ran, I did run a 10K, and I was so tight, and it was... I mean, I did all right, but it was not- Yeah ... it was not pleasant. You Ken Moench: finished. Matt Kosterman: I never found the runner's high. No. Kept looking for it. I've Ken Moench: never had one. Matt Kosterman: Never. Ken Moench: I ran two marathons. I've, I'm envious. And I've never, I've Matt Kosterman: never had Ken Moench: a runner's high. Ken Moench: Never. Matt Kosterman: I'm envious. Yeah. But, um, well, incredible. What an incredible bunch of stories. Ken Moench: I have, I have so many. Like, the problem that I have with these things is, is that when you mention something, I have like 8,000 stories- Well, yeah ... that I can pull from. Matt Kosterman: You said, you estimate you've probably worked on close to 50,000 people. Ken Moench: Uh, 50,000 or more. Matt Kosterman: Or more. Ken Moench: Yeah. Yeah. And Matt Kosterman: it's- Babies and 98-year-olds, and- Ken Moench: Yeah ... Matt Kosterman: professional athletes and me, and it was Ken Moench: so grateful. Collegiate athletes, high school. Yeah. Look, I've got a, I've got a kid right now, and he, he will, he will, I won't mention his name, but- Matt Kosterman: Yeah ... Ken Moench: but I've been working, what- Jordan and I primarily have been working with this kid since he was in seventh grade. Matt Kosterman: Okay. Ken Moench: He's now with the Kansas City Royals- Oh, wow ... as, as one of their pitchers. Okay. And, and he's, uh, he, he had a UCL thing, and he's, he's recovering faster than they can believe. Is that right? Because I worked on him before and after the surgery. Matt Kosterman: Yeah, yeah. Ken Moench: Um, but he's, he's just the best kid, and it's, it's fun to watch somebody that you saw as a little bitty guy who's like, "I love baseball." Matt Kosterman: Right, right, Ken Moench: and he's playing in the- And he's, he's on his way to the, to the big leagues. The big leagues. He really is. He's, he's, he's astonishing. And so I love those kind of things. Matt Kosterman: Absolutely. Ken Moench: Yeah. Matt Kosterman: Uh, um- Baseball players Ken Moench: Ev- every other sport. I mean- Yeah, yeah ... we, we've worked with, uh, UT, some of the UT, uh, uh, basketball players. Ken Moench: We worked with, uh, point guards from the, from the NBA. Uh, we worked with-- We have a, we have a guy who came in. He's a, he's, uh, a, a 100 meter high hurdler. That's a difficult race. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Ken Moench: And, and the problem that he had was he, he would, he would run, and to get over the hurdle, he had to almost bend sideways to get his leg over the hurdle. Ken Moench: Mm-hmm. That's not Matt Kosterman: good. Hike his, hike his hip up. Ken Moench: That's not good form. And so Jordan primarily worked with him. I, I think I worked with him once or twice, but Jordan did a lot of the work. And, uh, anyway, he, he ran at the, um- Pan American Games. And, uh, he hit the, the first hurdle. He came out of the blocks slow. Ken Moench: He hit the first hurdle hard. He still won the race. He won gold- Matt Kosterman: Really? ... Ken Moench: for his Barbados... For Barba- his first gold medal Barbados had ever won in the, in, in- In the- ... the Panama Games, Pan American Games. And, and he was running over those hurdles straight. Matt Kosterman: Straight, hip straight. Ken Moench: Completely straight. Just Matt Kosterman: legs. Ken Moench: Just... Matt Kosterman: Smooth. Ken Moench: And so even people that are just elite athletes, if you get them opened up, it's crazy the amount of improvement. Matt Kosterman: Well, yeah, 'cause the body, it's all primed. It's all open. It's all ready to go. Ken Moench: Yeah. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. So you've got the four offices and you, are you doing trainings for people who might be interested in getting trained in the method? Matt Kosterman: What, what's the- Ken Moench: Of, of course. I have, I have somebody that we just brought on that we're gonna start training- ... in the next, uh, week or so. Um- Matt Kosterman: But have you trained people outside of your offices to, to... In Ken Moench: the- Well, well, unfortunately, a lot of the people that we trained that were working in our offices had to move to other cities around. Ken Moench: And, and so they're, they're still doing some of this stuff. Okay. But, um, the, the thing is, and the reason we're doing podcasts is, is nobody knows about this stuff. Matt Kosterman: Right. Ken Moench: Uh, this is like a unicorn except you know a unicorn is a horse with a horn. Matt Kosterman: Yeah, yeah. Ken Moench: But if I try to just describe the color merpoples, you would go, "What?" Ken Moench: Uh, because nobody's ever heard of merpoples. That's kind of us. Matt Kosterman: Sure. Ken Moench: And, and so it's difficult. People just don't understand. And, and, uh, the reason, the reason why people have been willing to fly here from outside the country, like we've had people come from almost every continent. None from Antarctica yet, no penguin. Ken Moench: Right, Matt Kosterman: no penguins. Ken Moench: But, uh- Matt Kosterman: And you work on animals. Ken Moench: We d- we do. We work on- Right? Yeah. We have a- Sure ... a branch of our, our business called Mensch Method Canine Joint and Spine. Matt Kosterman: So dogs, okay, yeah. Ken Moench: And the, the reason why I started that was, uh, well, most recently we had a, a suite open up down the, down the way that was right across the street from a, uh, the parking lot from a animal hospital. Matt Kosterman: Okay. Ken Moench: And so I thought, "This is a great place. I'll open this up." But I started doing, uh, working on dogs just as a fluke. Um, I, I worked on a, a young lady and fixed her back and she said, "Ken, nobody's been able to fix my back. I mean, my back's never felt this way. Can you fix my dog?" Matt Kosterman: Mm-hmm. Ken Moench: And I said, "I don't know." Ken Moench: "Bring him in." Right. And so she brought him in, he got a little better. It was like, "Huh." And then, you know, I had more people over the years asking me if I, if I could do this. And I, and so I found out, I didn't know, but- Dog anatomy is the same as humans. The muscles are named the same things. There's slightly different stuff with the serratus muscles in the, in the, in the shoulders of a dog that make it more of a, a s- Oh, ' Matt Kosterman: cause they walk on them, right? Ken Moench: Yes. So it's gotta be beefier. And they, yeah, it's gotta be beefier. Matt Kosterman: Yeah, yeah. Ken Moench: But, but they have the same, their psoas, iliacus, the, all this stuff. And, and th- the crazy part is I figured out that the pre-birth posture is, is a, a real thing with puppies as well. So my wife and I, m- my, one, one day I, I came home from work and my wife told me that we were gonna start fostering puppies. Ken Moench: That's how we started fostering puppies. And, and I, what was I gonna say? No. Matt Kosterman: Right. Ken Moench: But so we've been... And so we've fostered almost 170 dogs now. Um, and it's been very rewarding but difficult. But m- most recently we had a, a mama puppy who was a, a street dog and not very friendly, who bit the, my arm like crazy- Ouch Ken Moench: two or three times. Uh, and, but she had six little puppies, and when we got them they were only two weeks old. Matt Kosterman: Mm-hmm. Ken Moench: So two days after we got these, these puppies all seemed fine, one of them, my, my stepdaughter noticed, was, was dragging herself around the hou- the house with her front two legs. Matt Kosterman: So the back weren't dragging. Ken Moench: So the back legs weren't working, tail wasn't working, and so they called the foster group, uh, owner, and she said, "Well, she's failing and she probably won't make it." And so they brought me the puppy and said, "Fix her." Okay. So what's going on? She can't use her back legs and her this. So it's, I says, "Probably hip flexors pulling on the spine, and that's pinching nerves and causing the problem." Ken Moench: So I got her in my lap, and it was much like Kala. She was squalling when we got into- Mm. Mm. Mm ... the left, into the right, the low back. I got those three areas released. I put her down. She started walking and wagging her tail. Matt Kosterman: No problem. Ken Moench: I mean, it was almost, it was almost, almost immediate. And then two weeks later, one of the dogs stopped eating completely. Ken Moench: Now, the, the other five were eating like it was their last meal. Mm-hmm. Like, they just... Crazy. And, and this dog, you couldn't force feed it. You couldn't... You put it in her mouth, she'd spit it out. And her stomach was distended and all these different things, and so we called the, the foster group owner. Yeah. Ken Moench: And she said, "Well, she's failing. She probably won't make it." And so they said, "Have you worked on that one?" I said, "No." So I got her on my lap, squall, squall, and then low back, same thing, and then I did little compression things on her tummy to induce peristalsis. Matt Kosterman: Yeah, yeah. Sure. Ken Moench: And then put her down. She started eating that day, and has since gotten adopted. Ken Moench: She's fine. Matt Kosterman: She's fine. Ken Moench: And all four of the other ones also had hip problems that we had to release, because they started limping around. Interesting. And then we opened them up, and then they were all sprinting around the yard. All of them got adopted, even the mama that was biting me. Matt Kosterman: Oh. Ken Moench: That was a hormone thing- Matt Kosterman: Oh, okay Ken Moench: with her, and she was protective and all the other stuff, and she's, she got adopted as well. So happy ending. Matt Kosterman: Happy ending. Ken Moench: Um, but yeah, we've been working on dogs with great... Like, dogs get, uh, diagnosed with hip dysplasia. Matt Kosterman: Mm-hmm. Ken Moench: If you look up hip d- hip dysplasia, it's incurable, and it's- Yeah, yeah ... and it's- Golden retrievers especially Ken Moench: and it's, and it's genetic. Matt Kosterman: Right. Ken Moench: Uh, German shepherds get it- Shepherds ... labs. A bunch of them, right? Matt Kosterman: Retrievers, right. Ken Moench: And so Ken Moench: If you think about pre-birth posture, and their legs are really jammed up because they got a lot of puppies in that womb. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Ken Moench: And they're stuck that way for a long time. If the muscles in the hip are pulling the hip joint out of its proper position, it will start to grind on that joint and destroy the joint. Matt Kosterman: Okay. Ken Moench: And cause arthritis and all these other things. So it's labeled hip dysplasia. Matt Kosterman: Hip dysplasia. But it's just because the muscle's too short. Ken Moench: The muscle's too short and tight. And even dogs, older dogs, like 10, 12, 13 years old, who've been labeled with hip dysplasia, if you just get those muscles released on the inside of the hip- Mm-hmm Ken Moench: and on the outside of the hip and the low back, you get those released, guess what? It takes all the stress and pressure off of those areas. They get increased blood supply to and from those areas, and they can walk around without a limp. Matt Kosterman: Without a limp. Ken Moench: I actually, I, we worked on a dog. It was for a friend of ours, uh, of my daughter's, who had a 16-year-old bull mastiff. Matt Kosterman: Oh my goodness. Giant. Ken Moench: Giant dog. Matt Kosterman: 100-plus pounds. Ken Moench: And yeah. Oh, it, 120 probably. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Ken Moench: Big boy. And this dog, she'd bring him over to our house, and this, this dog would try to hike its leg and fall over. Matt Kosterman: Oh. Ken Moench: Because it had no control over its hips or anything else. It was, it, it was just a mess. They couldn't, they wouldn't walk around the block. Ken Moench: It couldn't get down to the end of the block. And I think she brought him over four or five times. Matt Kosterman: Okay. Ken Moench: And by that time- The dog was dragging them around the block, down into the creek- So excite- ... across the road ... Matt Kosterman: so Ken Moench: excited. She had, she had to, like, bring her phone with her to call her dad to come pick her up, 'cause she, they were so far away from the house. Ken Moench: This is a 16-year-old- 16-year-old ... bull mastiff that typically won't live even that long, not even close. I was- That was, that was shocking Matt Kosterman: that it made that- Ken Moench: Yes ... that it Matt Kosterman: made it that long. Ken Moench: But it was like, i- in, in these animals, I mean, I've heard of the, th- they were just gonna cut the head of the femur off and just, a- and just, you know, just let the, the, the- Matt Kosterman: Let it hang Ken Moench: let it hang. Or, or amputate the leg. Matt Kosterman: Wow. Ken Moench: And, and there's so many cases where these dogs come in and they're, you know, one not that long ago, they wanted to do back surgery on the dog because the hip flexors had pulled his spine and caused a herniation or something like that. And I said, "Well, let's, let's see what we can do." Ken Moench: So you open up the, the iliacus, you open up the psoas, then you get their, their, the outside part of their hips opened up, and then you get on their low back, and you get that all, uh, loosened up, and they're walking around with no pain. Matt Kosterman: No pain. Ken Moench: And three years later, no surgery. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Ken Moench: And the dog's still running around. Ken Moench: And Matt Kosterman: $25,000 out of pocket- Ken Moench: Yes ... or whatever. Yes. Whatever, yeah. And, and our, our treatment for dogs, our, our policy with dogs is this: If we can't help your dog, there's no charge. It's not a money back guarantee. There's no money coming out of your pocket in the first place. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Ken Moench: If we just can't help them because it's a structural issue that's real that needs to be taken care of, you're not gonna get charged. Ken Moench: Um, and, and the cost for a first time session is only, it's 395. Now, the reason it's more is we typically have to bring in a couple of therapists to actually- Ha- Matt Kosterman: handle ... Ken Moench: handle the dog. Matt Kosterman: Make sure you don't get your arm bit. Ken Moench: And then make sure you have a muzzle on just so that nobody gets hurt. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Ken Moench: And some dogs don't need it. Ken Moench: They would lay there and let you do anything to them, and they're just the sweetest things. Others are just scared to death and are... And they, because you're touching stuff that they are trying to keep nobody- Protect ... to touch. Protect. Yes. Yeah, Matt Kosterman: yeah, yeah. But- And the nervous system's on high Ken Moench: alert ... but here's the cra- here's the crazy thing. Ken Moench: Most dogs, you almost have to pull them, drag them into the, into the vet clinic. Right. Because, one, they're gonna stick a thermometer up their butt- ... and, uh, nobody likes that. Matt Kosterman: Right. Ken Moench: And so, um, when the dogs come in, they get this work, the last thing that we do is we just, you know, I say, "Okay, just start petting them." Ken Moench: And so ev- we got three or four people petting them all at once. We pet their belly- Yeah, yeah ... pet their ears, doing all this kind of stuff. So dogs live such in the moment that when they, when they, they leave, they feel way better, and they just got a belly rub and then they, they got brushed and everything else. Ken Moench: So the next time they come, they're running into the place. They're, they'll run to the mat where they got worked on before- Where they got the work done ... because they felt better when they left. Matt Kosterman: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Not worse. Ken Moench: Yeah. Yeah. And so- They Matt Kosterman: didn't get a jab. They didn't get a thermometer. Ken Moench: It's, look, working on dogs and babies is very stressful for me personally. Ken Moench: I, look, I, my, I'm a dad. I've got four kids. I've got, it's coming up soon eight grandkids. In January we'll have eight, and, and- The first rule of thumb is n- never, never wake a sleeping baby. Matt Kosterman: Mm-hmm. Ken Moench: You're certainly never supposed to hurt a baby. Matt Kosterman: Never make a baby cry- Ken Moench: Never make a baby cry- ... on purpose ... on purpose. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Ken Moench: And it's like, the, the sound of a baby crying is, is one of the most grating sounds to a human being on purpose. On purpose. On- It's a survival- Matt Kosterman: On purpose, yeah ... Ken Moench: thing. And- Matt Kosterman: So you just gotta grit- Ken Moench: That's what I have to Matt Kosterman: do ... grit your teeth. Grit your teeth through it. And, Ken Moench: and they didn't, they didn't sign the waiver. Matt Kosterman: Right. Ken Moench: The parent did. Matt Kosterman: Right. Ken Moench: The dog didn't sign the waiver. Right. They don't know what's gonna happen. They don't know Matt Kosterman: what's coming. Ken Moench: The, the owner did. And so it's, it's tough for that purpose. You walked in, you knew what was coming. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Ken Moench: You knew that this was probably gonna be not very comfortable. A little, Matt Kosterman: little uncomfortable. Ken Moench: And, and you signed the waiver and, and so I don't... I, I... That's fine. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. And to be clear, I've been a lot more uncomfortable- Yes ... th- i- in other things I've done- Right ... than, than this, but, um, it was, uh, yeah, it was a great experience. And that, I guess you'd call it sort of two visits. We were on the table for a while. Ken Moench: Well, yeah. Matt Kosterman: That- 'Cause I was tight. Ken Moench: Yeah, that was- Yeah ... that was about three hours. Yeah. Normal, uh, first session is, is an hour and a half. Actually, I told my wife I'd be home about 3:00, no, about noon. Matt Kosterman: Okay. You're a little late. Ken Moench: So what, what time are we at now? Matt Kosterman: 3:30. Ken Moench: Yeah, okay. Matt Kosterman: Yeah, we're a little Ken Moench: late. So, so that's, that's fine. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Ken Moench: I, I did text her earlier and I said, "Uh, this is taking longer than I thought." Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Ken Moench: But- Matt Kosterman: I was super tight ... the- And I thought, and I, and I actually, I said to you when I got here, I'm like, "I'm like 90% better than I used to be." And you're like, "Yeah, you're one of the tightest people I've seen." Ken Moench: And I, and, and here's the thing. Ken Moench: I could've, I could've finished in an hour and a half. Matt Kosterman: Uh-huh. Ken Moench: But you wouldn't have been where you are right now. We wouldn't... The, uh, like I got through his po- his anterior chain. Right, right, front. Like the hip flexors and, and l- some low back stuff, but I didn't get into glutes, I didn't get into hamstrings or calves. Ken Moench: Yes, it Matt Kosterman: didn't change the squat at all. Ken Moench: So it didn't change anything until we got the posterior chain opened up, and then... And so I wasn't gonna leave you in a condition where you weren't stable and balanced- Yeah ... so that when you left here, you'd be good. Matt Kosterman: Right. I'd be sort of half-baked. Ken Moench: Well, not only that, but if the front side's really loose and the back side's tight, then the back side's gonna start pulling more than the front side was, and so it could actually be worse. Matt Kosterman: Oh, and throw it the other way. Ken Moench: Yes. Yeah. And so I, I know what I can and can't do with people because, like, if you work on a professional athlete in season, you can't leave anything undone. You have to get everything open. Yeah. Matt Kosterman: Everything open, right. Ken Moench: Because they're out there throwing or hitting or running or sprinting or diving, full range of motion, full speed. Matt Kosterman: Right. Ken Moench: And if anything's tighter than the other areas around it, that's more likely to get hurt. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. And they'll feel it, and they're so Ken Moench: in tune- And they'll feel it ... with their Matt Kosterman: bodies Ken Moench: that they- Yes ... Matt Kosterman: that it, it Ken Moench: throws them Matt Kosterman: off. So Ken Moench: we have to, we have to leave people like that. And particularly if people are in from out of town, we... Ken Moench: I, I can't say, "Well, okay, just fly back down here from Chicago next week and we'll take care of the rest of this." Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Ken Moench: That'd be ridiculous. Matt Kosterman: Right. Right. Ken Moench: So we made sure that we took care of all the stuff that we needed to to at least get you from your, from your low back and waist down to Matt Kosterman: your feet. I'll probably come, I'll probably come back for the upper 'cause they're still- Ken Moench: Yeah. Ken Moench: The... You're gonna feel that more, by the way. Matt Kosterman: Oh, great. In Ken Moench: my, in my head. He, he just pointed at his neck. Matt Kosterman: Yeah, yeah. Ken Moench: And it's like the, the, the problem is when... If, if this is a problem, when your body's... Your body's a very good triage nurse. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Ken Moench: It will point out the thing that is the most important thing to get to. Ken Moench: So if it's your low back, if it's your adductors or whatever it is, your body's gonna be screaming, "Hey, fix this." Matt Kosterman: Right. Ken Moench: Once you get that all opened up, then your body goes to the next thing. Matt Kosterman: Mm-hmm. Ken Moench: And it's like, "Hey." And it's usually, it's usually neck and shoulders. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Ken Moench: And yeah, we'll get all that opened up next time. Ken Moench: Okay. Matt Kosterman: I'll, I'll come back down. Ken Moench: There you go. Matt Kosterman: Austin's a fun city. Ken Moench: They have a lot of things to do here. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. So people will find you, is it men- moenchmethod.com? Ken Moench: It's Moench Method Bodywork. Moench Matt Kosterman: Method, M-O-E- N-C-H ... N-C-H. Method- Ken Moench: Method. Bodywork.com Bodywork.com. And then- Matt Kosterman: It'll be in the text, you Ken Moench: know ... all of our social media stuff is the same way. Ken Moench: If you just put in Moench Method on Instagram- All of it ... it'll, will pull us up. Okay. If you're on Facebook, same thing. Yeah, yeah. If you're on Inst- whatever it is, it'll pull it up. Matt Kosterman: All right. Ken Moench: Um, and... Matt Kosterman: That's great. Doctor, thank you. Ken Moench: Oh. Matt Kosterman: See? It was a fabulous day down here in Austin. I'm glad, I'm glad we made this happen. Ken Moench: I'm glad you showed up. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Ken Moench: Uh, this is, this is great. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Thank you. All right, sir. We're out