Latest / Where We Rise / 34 | "Anger Into Wisdom" | How One Man Rebuilt After Divorce

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34 | "Anger Into Wisdom" | How One Man Rebuilt After Divorce · Where We Rise

• 0:01
  Khalila McCoy: Hey, I'm Khalila McCoy, and you're listening to the podcast that honors every chapter of your journey.
• 0:09
  Khalila McCoy: This is Where We Rise.
• 0:12
  Khalila McCoy: Hey there, how are you?
• 0:17
  Khalila McCoy: It's so great to have you here with me for this conversation.
• 0:21
  Khalila McCoy: Today I am talking with Jeff Kolez, author of After Divorce, How to Lose Everything and Still Win.
• 0:29
  Khalila McCoy: I came across a post where Jeff shared a glimpse into his work, and he talks about why after divorce, just move on is the worst advice a man can get.
• 0:40
  Khalila McCoy: He shares what his sons taught him about breaking generational patterns and why divorce isn't the disease, it's the symptom.
• 0:48
  Khalila McCoy: His perspective immediately caught my attention.
• 0:51
  Khalila McCoy: I reached out to Jeff because I was genuinely curious.
• 0:55
  Khalila McCoy: He speaks openly about divorce from the male perspective and advocates for fathers and men who are navigating one of the hardest transitions of their lives.
• 1:04
  Khalila McCoy: Divorce is not a topic that I've talked about with many men, so I was really interested in hearing what similarities or differences might show up compared to the conversations that I've had with women.
• 1:15
  Khalila McCoy: Now we know every divorce is different, every couple is different, and Jeff's experience is uniquely his, but he shared some things that made me pause and reflect and consider what men might be carrying silently through this process and how deeply it can shape their sense of manhood, their future, and their roles as fathers.
• 1:36
  Khalila McCoy: As you listen, I encourage you to join me in my curiosity.
• 1:41
  Khalila McCoy: Notice what stands out to you, what challenges you, and what you might want to take away from this conversation.
• 1:49
  Khalila McCoy: Hi, Jeff.
• 1:52
  Khalila McCoy: Welcome to the show.
• 1:54
  Jeff Kolez: Thanks for having me, Khalia.
• 1:56
  Khalila McCoy: I'm really excited to talk with you today.
• 1:58
  Khalila McCoy: Um, I came across your post and a Facebook group, and I thought what you had to share was really interesting, talking about divorce, talking about connecting with children from a male's perspective.
• 2:12
  Khalila McCoy: Um and also you're an author, and we'll talk about your book later on.
• 2:17
  Khalila McCoy: But just jumping in, give us a good clear view of who you are.
• 2:24
  Jeff Kolez: I think I'm still figuring that out at in my late 40s.
• 2:27
  Jeff Kolez: Um, I think a lot of people can probably relate to that.
• 2:30
  Jeff Kolez: Um about 15 years ago, I went through a pretty miserable divorce.
• 2:35
  Jeff Kolez: Um just uh just about as bad as you can imagine.
• 2:40
  Jeff Kolez: Um we don't need to go into the too much any of the details, um, but it really shook me to my core.
• 2:49
  Jeff Kolez: And um I remember after one incident, um, one one particularly nasty argument, I was driving, I was driving.
• 3:01
  Jeff Kolez: I I got in my car and I just had to get out of there.
• 3:05
  Jeff Kolez: And the question that keep kept popping up for me was how do I never let this happen again?
• 3:12
  Jeff Kolez: Um this was for context, it was after we had decided to separate and uh there it it just got nasty.
• 3:24
  Jeff Kolez: And um I didn't want myself to go through it, and later on I realized I didn't want my kids to go through it.
• 3:32
  Jeff Kolez: So that that kind of prompted a a really long self-examination.
• 3:38
  Jeff Kolez: Um I have 25 years in tech, and before this divorce, well, dur I guess through it, um, I was a very logical person, so very everything was very black and white, um, binary, on or off.
• 3:55
  Jeff Kolez: And there was no area for gray.
• 3:58
  Jeff Kolez: And when you go through a divorce or anything challenging like that, you can't live in black and white on or off, yes or no.
• 4:09
  Jeff Kolez: You have to look for the nuance in the shades of gray.
• 4:13
  Jeff Kolez: Um and so I'm sure we'll get into this more, but that was that was the beginning of kind of waking up from that.
• 4:23
  Jeff Kolez: Um being very logical, I didn't know what emotions were, just no idea.
• 4:30
  Jeff Kolez: And um when I went through the divorce, uh, I probably reacted more poorly than I should have um to a lot of things because it felt like life and death.
• 4:42
  Jeff Kolez: Uh I felt like I wasn't gonna see my kids again.
• 4:45
  Jeff Kolez: I felt like I was gonna have my bank account drained for the rest of my life, not that those two things are equivalent, but you know, there's there's still rational fears as you go through something like that.
• 4:55
  Jeff Kolez: Um, and I didn't have the tools to process those emotions and figure out what to do next.
• 5:04
  Jeff Kolez: So I spent the next probably 10 years looking at myself and and trying to grow from that and give myself the tools and um figure out how to not let myself go through it, not let my kids go through it, and now I want to help other men not go through it.
• 5:27
  Khalila McCoy: When you talk about that moment of how do I not let this happen again and being reflective, and you talked about not having a lot of emotions before.
• 5:39
  Khalila McCoy: When things got tougher, just in general, how did you deal with things before versus after that reflective moment?
• 5:48
  Jeff Kolez: Um I probably pushed them down until they wouldn't go down no more and then they exploded.
• 5:56
  Jeff Kolez: Um so you know, if I remember snapping at random people and it was nothing to do with them, or snapping at people who were close to me.
• 6:11
  Jeff Kolez: Um and or I would seek out feeling good and um, you know, sex, drugs, and and rock and roll.
• 6:26
  Jeff Kolez: So um I sought pleasure, you know, food.
• 6:32
  Jeff Kolez: Um, I put on weight, I may have used some drugs, I may have drank some alcohol, I may have chased some women.
• 6:39
  Jeff Kolez: Um and and you know, I just sought pleasure, I sought like even a moment of solace in in all of that.
• 6:47
  Jeff Kolez: Um but the divorce really showed that you know, as the divorce progressed, it really showed that you can't live there.
• 6:57
  Jeff Kolez: It doesn't, you know, it feels good for the night, but you wake up the next morning and you're still the same, you're still in the same situation, and how what are you gonna do?
• 7:09
  Khalila McCoy: Right.
• 7:10
  Jeff Kolez: You you can't well, you can drink all the time, but that's not that's not living a life.
• 7:15
  Jeff Kolez: And I made a promise to myself one night that this wasn't gonna be the thing that defeated me, that this wasn't gonna be the thing that um crushed my spirit.
• 7:29
  Khalila McCoy: Right.
• 7:29
  Khalila McCoy: Now, a lot of what you're sharing seems to be coming like again, after that moment reflection, after the divorce hit, when you were living that part of your life and doing those things and seeking that solace.
• 7:43
  Khalila McCoy: Was there a part of you that was like, I need to get out of this, I just don't know how?
• 7:48
  Khalila McCoy: Or were you not realizing the full effect of what you were doing, either to yourself or to the people around you?
• 7:55
  Jeff Kolez: I don't think I had any idea.
• 7:58
  Jeff Kolez: I don't think I had any idea.
• 8:00
  Jeff Kolez: Um I think I was now looking back at it, I I would say I was buried in shame.
• 8:07
  Jeff Kolez: Um, but I know I didn't like myself all that much during those days.
• 8:13
  Jeff Kolez: Um, I think I was aware that much.
• 8:15
  Jeff Kolez: Um, I don't know.
• 8:17
  Jeff Kolez: I I the foundation of my work is that a lot of us men weren't given the tools to handle a situation like that.
• 8:29
  Jeff Kolez: We we were raised to well, I I certainly was raised to follow orders and not question anything.
• 8:39
  Jeff Kolez: Um so when you're put in a situation like that, the only you have to follow your own your your own orders.
• 8:51
  Khalila McCoy: Right.
• 8:51
  Jeff Kolez: And um you don't you're not giving yourself any orders.
• 8:57
  Jeff Kolez: So even as something as simple as get your butt to the gym every day, um, you don't trust yourself to do that.
• 9:05
  Jeff Kolez: Because why why would you trust yourself?
• 9:08
  Jeff Kolez: Why like why why is that even a tool?
• 9:10
  Jeff Kolez: Like why why does going to the gym matter?
• 9:13
  Jeff Kolez: Um it's and it's um it you I just found profoundly lost during those days.
• 9:24
  Khalila McCoy: Yeah.
• 9:25
  Khalila McCoy: So walk us through how do you come out of that state.
• 9:29
  Jeff Kolez: I'm still figuring that out, but it's it's um moment by moment.
• 9:36
  Jeff Kolez: Um I don't know if you want me to talk about this, but um shortly after separating, I took my first dose of psychedelics.
• 9:45
  Jeff Kolez: And um I didn't know it at the time.
• 9:49
  Jeff Kolez: It just felt really good to be there in that place.
• 9:53
  Jeff Kolez: Um what I recognize now is that and I and I don't recommend this for everybody because it's it's a a very you're in a very precarious place, and um psychedelics can be a um can really stir the pot, let's just say.
• 10:13
  Khalila McCoy: Yeah.
• 10:14
  Jeff Kolez: Um, but what I recognize now that it gave me was was a window out of where I was in of the chaos that I was sitting inside.
• 10:23
  Jeff Kolez: Um and it just gave me this window of what life could be.
• 10:27
  Jeff Kolez: Um so that's not I don't think of it as true enlightenment.
• 10:34
  Jeff Kolez: Well, it's not true enlightenment, um, but it is at least lighting a candle in the dark and having a um better view of where you're where you are and something to aspire to.
• 10:48
  Khalila McCoy: Okay.
• 10:49
  Khalila McCoy: Now, did you uh take that thinking you would have that true enlightenment or looking for those answers from that?
• 10:56
  Khalila McCoy: Or was it kind of just a spur of the moment choice?
• 10:59
  Jeff Kolez: Uh a friend of a friend had some and was like, hey, you want some?
• 11:02
  Jeff Kolez: And I was like, I've always wanted to try it and maybe it'll give me an escape.
• 11:06
  Khalila McCoy: Yeah.
• 11:07
  Khalila McCoy: Now, was it like a one-time thing or something that you found yourself doing frequently?
• 11:12
  Jeff Kolez: Um no, I I throughout it, I would I would take a dose probably two to three times a year.
• 11:22
  Jeff Kolez: Um just to get, you know, kind of reoriented.
• 11:26
  Jeff Kolez: Um since then I've tried, you know, other forms of it.
• 11:30
  Jeff Kolez: Um and you know, it's been over a year since I've taken them last.
• 11:36
  Jeff Kolez: Um the call just seems to get, uh how do I say this, uh less uh intense and less frequent.
• 11:46
  Khalila McCoy: Okay.
• 11:47
  Khalila McCoy: Do you feel like that's a good thing?
• 11:49
  Khalila McCoy: Does that mean something to you that it's less frequent?
• 11:55
  Jeff Kolez: The last time I took them, it was pretty powerful and um it showed me something, and um I think I'm still processing, I'm still sitting with it.
• 12:07
  Khalila McCoy: Okay.
• 12:07
  Jeff Kolez: It'll take you somewhere.
• 12:09
  Jeff Kolez: But you again, you have like there was there was one time I remember I took them and I was majorly depressed for six months after, maybe even a year afterward.
• 12:19
  Jeff Kolez: Um, and I put um I didn't put myself, but I went and I had to ask the doctor for antidepressants, and that just made it that was a whole other whole other problem with it.
• 12:31
  Jeff Kolez: Um I don't mean to say that the work to be done comes from taking something.
• 12:40
  Jeff Kolez: Like you can't take a pill and fix um the problem of um I'm not who I want to be anymore.
• 12:52
  Khalila McCoy: Right.
• 12:52
  Jeff Kolez: Um it takes a lot of discipline, curiosity, and determination and real reflection to look at and and taking a lot of responsibility to figure out how I got here and how I make sure it doesn't happen again.
• 13:12
  Jeff Kolez: So I I if psychedelics are calling, I mean, approach it with with massive, massive caution, but it's not something that's gonna cure you.
• 13:26
  Jeff Kolez: It'll give you a window, it's not, you know, the actual room.
• 13:31
  Khalila McCoy: Right.
• 13:32
  Khalila McCoy: I like that.
• 13:33
  Khalila McCoy: I like too that you mention approaching it with curiosity about who you are.
• 13:39
  Khalila McCoy: So what were you curious about?
• 13:42
  Jeff Kolez: The first time I took it, I think I was just curious about the the substance themselves.
• 13:47
  Jeff Kolez: Um but I became the the first time I took it, it was so powerful and I felt I felt powerful.
• 13:54
  Jeff Kolez: And I became more and more curious about how I could reach that level.
• 14:01
  Jeff Kolez: Um I felt very powerless during the divorce, uh powerless growing up even.
• 14:09
  Jeff Kolez: Um so it it got me to look further and further inside of myself.
• 14:18
  Jeff Kolez: So it made me curious about myself.
• 14:21
  Jeff Kolez: Um and then, you know, as you do the the inner work, you realize that you're connected to other people, you're connected to your your kids, your your family, your friends, and and the world at large.
• 14:37
  Jeff Kolez: Um and then the real the real work becomes being curious about yourself and looking inside.
• 14:44
  Jeff Kolez: So um that becomes everything.
• 14:47
  Jeff Kolez: And I don't mean that in a narcissistic way.
• 14:49
  Jeff Kolez: I mean that in that you look inside of yourself in order to see the world in a different way.
• 14:55
  Khalila McCoy: When you were going through the divorce and everything was happening around you, did you start to see things differently?
• 15:03
  Khalila McCoy: Were you starting to realize like the parts that were broken that you might not have seen before?
• 15:11
  Jeff Kolez: Yeah.
• 15:12
  Jeff Kolez: Um, I'd been seeing a somatic coach too at the time.
• 15:17
  Jeff Kolez: And um she helped me to reframe a lot of things as I saw so as I saw the divorce, I saw myself as really powerless going through it.
• 15:27
  Jeff Kolez: Um and in Canada anyway, um maybe I don't want to say that.
• 15:35
  Jeff Kolez: Um it felt like it felt very unfair what what you what I went through.
• 15:42
  Jeff Kolez: Like I I didn't even um at the time it felt very unfair that I went to court for the first time and all of a sudden I had a a child support payment.
• 15:53
  Jeff Kolez: I thought I had been taking care of the kids and I had the kids half the time, and all of a sudden I had to pay, you know, a good portion of my my income.
• 16:00
  Jeff Kolez: So that felt very unfair.
• 16:02
  Jeff Kolez: Um and I felt powerless doing that.
• 16:07
  Jeff Kolez: Um, but doing that work with that somatic coach, she said, you know, you have potential for a lot of income.
• 16:18
  Jeff Kolez: And you can just use this, not you can just, but you can use this to propel your yourself forward.
• 16:28
  Jeff Kolez: And I sat with that, and that was part of the um I mentioned a couple of minutes ago, the the promise to myself that I wasn't gonna let the divorce beat me.
• 16:40
  Khalila McCoy: Right.
• 16:40
  Jeff Kolez: So I wasn't part of that was not letting the finances beat me, because I had to pay support, I had to pay for building a new life, like I had to go get a new house and furniture and everything that that that entailed.
• 16:55
  Jeff Kolez: Plus I had legal bills on top of that.
• 16:57
  Jeff Kolez: So it was it became like, what's the next step not to let this beat me?
• 17:02
  Jeff Kolez: Um at one point I had three jobs.
• 17:05
  Jeff Kolez: Um I was working, you know, I was I was in tech, I was working 10 to 14 hours a day just to to make sure that that wasn't gonna beat me.
• 17:16
  Khalila McCoy: Right.
• 17:17
  Jeff Kolez: And and that was the promise to myself that you know that was that was like this um it was almost like something woke up inside of me and was like, hell no, this is not gonna, this is not gonna, this is not this is not gonna go that way.
• 17:33
  Jeff Kolez: I'm gonna fight.
• 17:36
  Khalila McCoy: Yeah.
• 17:36
  Khalila McCoy: That's good though.
• 17:38
  Khalila McCoy: I think a lot of times, especially when we think of divorce, right?
• 17:41
  Khalila McCoy: We think of, you know, him versus her.
• 17:44
  Khalila McCoy: And you either, you know, your friends or your close gender or something, right?
• 17:48
  Khalila McCoy: You pick one side or the other, but you don't always necessarily think about how real it is for both sides, that restart and that reset.
• 17:57
  Khalila McCoy: Um, which, like I said, is really why I wanted to talk to you, kind of just to hear that male perspective.
• 18:03
  Khalila McCoy: Because I think a lot of times it's framed as, oh, the guy's gonna be okay.
• 18:08
  Khalila McCoy: He's gonna make it, he's gonna be fine.
• 18:10
  Khalila McCoy: And I don't know that we always dive into the emotions and the struggles that men go through as well.
• 18:18
  Jeff Kolez: I don't know.
• 18:19
  Jeff Kolez: I I that feels completely foreign to me, and I'll tell you why.
• 18:24
  Khalila McCoy: Okay.
• 18:24
  Jeff Kolez: Um, as I was, as I started doing this work, um, there's a stat that really shocks me.
• 18:31
  Jeff Kolez: And that stat is the suicide rate after divorce of men versus women, and there's not great stats on this, so this is this is just a ballpark.
• 18:43
  Jeff Kolez: The suicide rate of men versus women after a divorce is men commit suicide eight to ten times what women do.
• 18:51
  Jeff Kolez: So that's that's a crisis.
• 18:54
  Khalila McCoy: Yeah.
• 18:54
  Khalila McCoy: And that's why I'm saying I feel like that that's not a topic that's normally known about, right?
• 18:59
  Khalila McCoy: And talked about.
• 19:00
  Khalila McCoy: And I don't think that it's usually we feel a lot of like that sympathy for the woman versus like the men who are crying now and who are struggling as well.
• 19:09
  Khalila McCoy: And I think that it's important that we as a society notice that and support that.
• 19:15
  Khalila McCoy: So I know that your work, like you said, you want to help men be able to get through this as well.
• 19:20
  Khalila McCoy: So that doesn't become their end result.
• 19:23
  Jeff Kolez: Yeah, a hundred percent.
• 19:24
  Jeff Kolez: I think it's um I I don't and I don't even know these men are crying out.
• 19:30
  Jeff Kolez: I think they're they're it's quiet desperation.
• 19:34
  Khalila McCoy: Right.
• 19:34
  Khalila McCoy: Yeah.
• 19:35
  Khalila McCoy: Good point.
• 19:36
  Khalila McCoy: So when you hit that point for yourself, like you talked about the psychedelics, you talked about working with a coach.
• 19:43
  Khalila McCoy: Did you have like male friends that you could talk to about this or who had gone through it that could support you along the way?
• 19:52
  Jeff Kolez: Part of the ugliness was um, and I heard about this from some of my friends, my my ex called pretty much all of my friends, with with the exception of a couple of them, and and told told them I was abusive.
• 20:10
  Jeff Kolez: And I lost friends that of like 20 years, I lost one of them was um the best man at my wedding.
• 20:21
  Jeff Kolez: And he was just like, I don't want to deal with this, so you're on your own.
• 20:24
  Jeff Kolez: Um so yeah, I had friends.
• 20:29
  Jeff Kolez: Um and and she didn't try with um my cousin.
• 20:35
  Jeff Kolez: I I think of him I I'm an only child, so I think of him as a brother.
• 20:39
  Jeff Kolez: Um, she didn't even try with him, but she tried with my parents, she tried with, you know, some really close friends.
• 20:47
  Jeff Kolez: So it wasn't just the grief of losing um you know, my marriage, my house, my my life.
• 20:55
  Jeff Kolez: I'd lost friends all along the way, too.
• 20:59
  Jeff Kolez: Um some of that you just gotta push down and or deal with the best you can.
• 21:04
  Jeff Kolez: I pushed it down to deal with later.
• 21:08
  Jeff Kolez: Um But um you know, that would that was uh that was a pretty big blow to lose those friends too.
• 21:18
  Khalila McCoy: Right.
• 21:20
  Jeff Kolez: Um but I did have I did have friends.
• 21:22
  Jeff Kolez: Uh I had that cousin I mentioned.
• 21:25
  Jeff Kolez: Um, you know, he was he was very kind.
• 21:28
  Jeff Kolez: I would go see him at least once a week.
• 21:30
  Jeff Kolez: Um, you know, we would just have dinner together.
• 21:33
  Jeff Kolez: Um I think, you know, and I and I had some friends who contacted me and when they were like, did you know she she was calling people and telling them this?
• 21:45
  Jeff Kolez: And you know, of course we're uh we're not picking sides, but we're with you.
• 21:49
  Jeff Kolez: We've known you for a long time.
• 21:52
  Jeff Kolez: Like these are friends I had in high school.
• 21:54
  Jeff Kolez: Um so I'm eternally grateful to those to those.
• 21:59
  Jeff Kolez: People and uh you know that was a that that was a that was a tough experience to go through.
• 22:05
  Khalila McCoy: Yeah.
• 22:06
  Khalila McCoy: So think about talking to a guy who's going through that and he's saying to you, you know, I'm just pushing it down, just dealing with it day by day.
• 22:17
  Khalila McCoy: I don't really have anyone to talk to.
• 22:19
  Khalila McCoy: What would you say to that guy?
• 22:22
  Jeff Kolez: You gotta find a find somebody to talk to.
• 22:24
  Jeff Kolez: Get your butt out to the gym.
• 22:26
  Jeff Kolez: Um, I started you, you know, make friends at the gym.
• 22:31
  Jeff Kolez: Yeah, I found it really easy to do that.
• 22:34
  Jeff Kolez: That was me anyway.
• 22:35
  Jeff Kolez: Um, but find something that you can find a hobby like.
• 22:42
  Jeff Kolez: Um, you know, I I I used to keep fish, and I uh I had friends who also kept fish.
• 22:50
  Jeff Kolez: And I know this this is such a uh uh a niche thing and it's not for everybody, but um that was at least a place where the divorce didn't really touch.
• 23:02
  Jeff Kolez: Um so you gotta you gotta have that you gotta have something for you.
• 23:07
  Jeff Kolez: Um if you just focus on the battle the whole time, you're gonna be at war the whole time.
• 23:15
  Jeff Kolez: You gotta find a reason to get up in the morning that you enjoy.
• 23:20
  Jeff Kolez: Um so for me that was hobbies, that was the gym.
• 23:24
  Jeff Kolez: I played I started, I I was pretty out of out of shape, and I started just playing squash because I liked hitting hitting the ball as hard as I could.
• 23:33
  Jeff Kolez: And I pictured my ex's face.
• 23:36
  Jeff Kolez: I just hammered that thing.
• 23:38
  Jeff Kolez: Um and then eventually I I grew out of that.
• 23:43
  Jeff Kolez: That wasn't for me anymore, and I started lifting weights, and just that act of of sweating it out helped a lot.
• 23:52
  Jeff Kolez: Um and you just feel like you're part of a, even if you're just saying hello to people in the morning when you go to the gym, that you feel like part of a community when you're doing that.
• 24:01
  Jeff Kolez: Um I know, I know there's a lot of loneliness, and and I think we as men outsource our um how do I say this?
• 24:14
  Jeff Kolez: We outsource a lot of our social ability to our wives.
• 24:18
  Jeff Kolez: And when we get divorced, we lose that.
• 24:24
  Jeff Kolez: Um or we never had it outside of that.
• 24:29
  Jeff Kolez: And I think that's a huge blind spot for us.
• 24:33
  Khalila McCoy: Yeah.
• 24:33
  Jeff Kolez: Luckily, that wasn't I was, you know, I didn't do that.
• 24:38
  Jeff Kolez: Um, but I I do see it in other men.
• 24:43
  Khalila McCoy: Yeah.
• 24:43
  Khalila McCoy: Thinking about the things that, you know, you talked about outsourcing, like the social aspect.
• 24:50
  Khalila McCoy: And I know you talked about financially things changed for you after the divorce.
• 24:55
  Khalila McCoy: Were there any things that you had to deal with or that came up that surprised you after the divorce?
• 25:02
  Jeff Kolez: I think it was I think the biggest thing was the the emotion at the emotions aspect of it.
• 25:08
  Jeff Kolez: It it we want to tough it out and we want to and we have to push it down.
• 25:14
  Jeff Kolez: And um You have to get through the you have to do the court thing.
• 25:20
  Jeff Kolez: You have to make enough money to pay for the lawyers, you have to make enough money to pay for the kids' lunches and and pick them up from school, uh, and all of that.
• 25:30
  Jeff Kolez: Um actually here here's here's a better answer to that.
• 25:36
  Jeff Kolez: The thing that surprised me most was how uncomfortable I was in silence.
• 25:41
  Jeff Kolez: Um I had a great time when the kids were around.
• 25:44
  Jeff Kolez: Um they they played hockey on the weekends and and I love that so much.
• 25:50
  Jeff Kolez: Um just just going I'm Canadian, so um, you know, it's it's our thing.
• 25:56
  Jeff Kolez: Yeah.
• 25:56
  Jeff Kolez: Um, and I, you know, just love taking them there.
• 26:00
  Jeff Kolez: Um, and we go for breakfast afterwards, and you know, it was just it was a day.
• 26:06
  Jeff Kolez: And um I think it was when they went back to mom's and it was the house was quiet.
• 26:15
  Jeff Kolez: That was incredibly uncomfortable.
• 26:20
  Jeff Kolez: Um, and I didn't realize how uncomfortable that was gonna be.
• 26:25
  Jeff Kolez: Because when the kids are around you, it's a it's it can be a distraction from sitting with your your emotions.
• 26:35
  Jeff Kolez: Um, but when it's quiet, they have nowhere to go.
• 26:38
  Jeff Kolez: You don't have anything necessarily to do on a Sunday afternoon.
• 26:42
  Jeff Kolez: So you just sit with your discomfort, and that can be so miserable.
• 26:48
  Jeff Kolez: Um like even now we're filming this at you know, Sunday afternoon.
• 26:53
  Jeff Kolez: So this is this is something to do.
• 26:55
  Jeff Kolez: But I could be sitting with, you know, 10 years ago when I was going through the worst of this, Sunday afternoon on a quiet, on a day I didn't have the kids, it was it was sitting with myself and and just feeling that discomfort, that anger in the chest and ranting to myself in my head about, you know, from my perspective, what a jerk my ex was.
• 27:19
  Jeff Kolez: Um and you you you ruminate and you start to believe those things in your head and it wears a track down.
• 27:26
  Khalila McCoy: Yeah.
• 27:26
  Khalila McCoy: How long did it take you to get to the point where you were not as uncomfortable in the silence?
• 27:34
  Jeff Kolez: Um I I don't think I knew what I was doing.
• 27:38
  Jeff Kolez: Um I didn't have I didn't have male friends who had been through something like this.
• 27:44
  Jeff Kolez: So I didn't I think I just kept doing the same thing over and over again, you know, Sunday afternoon, uh try to distract myself with, you know, any any of the things that I could be doing, like I could do to distract myself.
• 27:59
  Jeff Kolez: Um so I don't know that my answer is necessarily the best one for that, because it probably took me five, ten years to really be comfortable sitting on my own.
• 28:11
  Jeff Kolez: Um I think that if I did it again, I don't want to do it again.
• 28:19
  Jeff Kolez: Um but I I think I could, you know, probably two, three years, certainly.
• 28:26
  Khalila McCoy: Mm-hmm.
• 28:27
  Khalila McCoy: I think that's fair.
• 28:29
  Khalila McCoy: You said that your answer is not the best answer.
• 28:31
  Khalila McCoy: I think it's the truth answer, right?
• 28:33
  Khalila McCoy: Because like you said, men who are gonna go through this, they don't know how long it's gonna take them, and there's no timeline on that grief or a timeline on figuring out what it is that you need to do to move forward.
• 28:49
  Khalila McCoy: So I appreciate that honest answer.
• 28:52
  Jeff Kolez: No, though you can't you can't put a timeline on it.
• 28:54
  Jeff Kolez: You can't and you've got to do the work.
• 28:58
  Jeff Kolez: Um you've got to look at yourself and figure out how you played a role in it.
• 29:06
  Jeff Kolez: Um, take responsibility and and you know, feel those emotions and stop pushing them down, learn, learn, give yourself the tools to do it.
• 29:16
  Jeff Kolez: But that takes that's not a weekend task.
• 29:19
  Jeff Kolez: That's that's we're talking years.
• 29:22
  Khalila McCoy: Right.
• 29:22
  Khalila McCoy: When you talk about figuring out like what you did, you know, to make mistakes.
• 29:28
  Khalila McCoy: So for example, like I'm married now, right?
• 29:30
  Khalila McCoy: And I'm a wonderful wife, right?
• 29:32
  Khalila McCoy: But if something were to happen, right, I would have to stop and reflect.
• 29:36
  Khalila McCoy: Okay, what was my part in this?
• 29:38
  Khalila McCoy: How did you find your flaws in the situation?
• 29:44
  Khalila McCoy: Because I'm assuming during most of your time, I know you said you knew you made some major mistakes, but I'm sure there were some little things that you picked up on as you reflected back.
• 29:54
  Khalila McCoy: How did you find those moments?
• 29:57
  Jeff Kolez: There's there's a couple answers to that.
• 29:59
  Jeff Kolez: I I saw that somatic coach, and um part of the work was learning to turn those feelings inside into wisdom.
• 30:13
  Jeff Kolez: Um, I don't know that that's a fully, it might not be a fully um satisfying answer to your listeners, but what I mean by that is if I'm feeling angry towards my ex, um where is that anger coming from?
• 30:30
  Jeff Kolez: And how can I turn it into wisdom so it doesn't happen again?
• 30:36
  Jeff Kolez: So um, you know, I'm trying to think of an example.
• 30:39
  Jeff Kolez: So she called all of my friends to tell tell them uh I was abusive.
• 30:44
  Jeff Kolez: Um so I felt angry because of that.
• 30:47
  Jeff Kolez: Um well, maybe there were signs along the way that I missed.
• 30:52
  Jeff Kolez: Um and those sig uh the signs being, how did I let her into my life?
• 30:58
  Jeff Kolez: How did I let those those fair weather friends into my life?
• 31:02
  Jeff Kolez: And that's a major hole that needs plugging.
• 31:08
  Jeff Kolez: Yeah, because otherwise I'm gonna repeat it again and again and again.
• 31:11
  Jeff Kolez: I'm gonna keep allowing fair weather friends in.
• 31:15
  Jeff Kolez: Um, so I would do things like take stock of who is actually uh solid in my life and then draw a line and then who isn't solid, and then those people don't come with me.
• 31:32
  Jeff Kolez: Um you know, if they're if they're um believing anything she's saying, um, those aren't my people.
• 31:45
  Khalila McCoy: Right.
• 31:46
  Jeff Kolez: Um so that that that at least turns that pain into wisdom that I can act on.
• 31:55
  Khalila McCoy: Yeah.
• 31:55
  Jeff Kolez: And then it's it's some days it's like inch by inch of of trying to figure out what what those pain points are and how to turn them into uh wisdom that you can carry forward forward in life.
• 32:09
  Jeff Kolez: And and sometimes that wisdom is hard, hard earned.
• 32:13
  Jeff Kolez: Um, but you gotta do it because otherwise you're gonna stay in that anger or despair or depression, whatever it might be.
• 32:22
  Khalila McCoy: Now I know you've talked about your sons.
• 32:25
  Khalila McCoy: How did that relationship how was that affected during this time?
• 32:32
  Jeff Kolez: Um you know, I was I was I could be angry at them, um, or not at them, but they saw my anger leak into them.
• 32:43
  Jeff Kolez: Um but I also realized I it just it slowly dawned on me that um either I had to work on myself to save that relationship, or they would drift apart from me.
• 33:03
  Jeff Kolez: So they became uh they became a reason to wake up in the morning.
• 33:10
  Jeff Kolez: And they became a reason to work on myself, if that makes sense.
• 33:14
  Jeff Kolez: Because um days I didn't want to work on myself and I didn't want to get up in the there were mornings I just I was like, I can't drive you to school.
• 33:24
  Jeff Kolez: I just feel like I didn't sleep.
• 33:26
  Jeff Kolez: I slept like two hours.
• 33:28
  Khalila McCoy: Right.
• 33:29
  Jeff Kolez: Um, but you know, you have to.
• 33:32
  Jeff Kolez: And they get you out of bed and get you moving, because otherwise you just wallow and and stay depressed.
• 33:39
  Jeff Kolez: Um I think I don't think you can live from that place your entire life, but that gets you at least out of that rock bottom, um, moving towards something better.
• 33:51
  Jeff Kolez: Um I don't think anger and hate is you know, it's a good short-term motivator, um, but I think it's a really expensive fuel.
• 34:03
  Jeff Kolez: And I think that love and inspiration, not to get too touchy-feely, but I think love and and inspiration um serve you better in the long run.
• 34:13
  Jeff Kolez: Yeah.
• 34:14
  Jeff Kolez: So um yeah, it became it becomes how do I be better for them?
• 34:28
  Jeff Kolez: Um and that will um help heal myself and make life better for all of us.
• 34:39
  Khalila McCoy: Right.
• 34:40
  Khalila McCoy: How old were your children at this point?
• 34:43
  Jeff Kolez: Going through it, they were four or five and six and seven.
• 34:48
  Khalila McCoy: Okay.
• 34:49
  Khalila McCoy: What type of conversations were you able to have with them at this point?
• 34:53
  Khalila McCoy: At least in the beginning and stages.
• 34:56
  Jeff Kolez: Reassure them that it's not their fault, that they didn't do anything wrong.
• 35:00
  Jeff Kolez: Um that um that this was the new normal and um you know that they were loved.
• 35:12
  Jeff Kolez: And I wanted them to I didn't want to distract them from from feeling what they were feeling, but I wanted them to get on a track with life.
• 35:24
  Jeff Kolez: Um so we had, you know, even at that age it was age appropriate, but talked about what are you interested in?
• 35:31
  Jeff Kolez: Um and then let's go explore that.
• 35:34
  Jeff Kolez: So it became more about more kid focused.
• 35:39
  Jeff Kolez: Yeah.
• 35:39
  Jeff Kolez: Um, and that that's probably what helped wake me up to their needs more.
• 35:46
  Jeff Kolez: I think I even before having a kid fundamentally changes you.
• 35:53
  Jeff Kolez: Um, and then having a kid and recognizing that they're a whole other being, I think that's the next stage of of growth.
• 36:04
  Jeff Kolez: Um so because it then then you recognize that the world doesn't end at your navel.
• 36:12
  Jeff Kolez: It's it's bigger than that.
• 36:14
  Jeff Kolez: And and and um it can be a lot of fun to see life through um a kid's eyes.
• 36:23
  Jeff Kolez: Spe especially when you're going through something miserable.
• 36:26
  Jeff Kolez: It it that's that's a better distraction than uh drinking.
• 36:31
  Khalila McCoy: What were some things that you saw through their eyes that made it a little bit more bearable for you?
• 36:38
  Jeff Kolez: Sports and and I and I I'm not saying this from like a I'm not saying this from a point of view of, you know, my kid's gonna make the NHL or anything like that.
• 36:51
  Jeff Kolez: That's not what I mean.
• 36:52
  Jeff Kolez: But um seeing seeing them get knocked down, then they get back up and they try it again, and they lose and they try again, and they win, and they learn to treat that with with grace.
• 37:09
  Jeff Kolez: They they learn to win with with with grace and they learn to lose with grace.
• 37:15
  Jeff Kolez: I think that um that's that's a that's an important thing, and I don't think that that happens today a lot.
• 37:22
  Jeff Kolez: Um true.
• 37:24
  Jeff Kolez: Um just and and we we we would just go on an adventures, um, and it's just maybe mundane stuff like going into the the city and going to a museum or something like that, or or traveling together and and going to a museum and seeing um or trying new food, even just just basic stuff like that.
• 37:45
  Jeff Kolez: Um teaching them how to cook and just just seeing those those neurons fire and the connections get made.
• 37:53
  Jeff Kolez: It it's that's just a lot of fun to me.
• 37:58
  Khalila McCoy: Mm-hmm.
• 37:59
  Khalila McCoy: Now something that you wrote, I read, you said you talked about the fact that you got to this point where you realized your children are watching you and what you do, and it affects who they become and what they're doing.
• 38:15
  Khalila McCoy: What were some things that you knew that you wanted to change right away to help build in your children?
• 38:24
  Jeff Kolez: I well, like I talked about before that anger.
• 38:27
  Jeff Kolez: Um I I saw that surface in both of them.
• 38:32
  Jeff Kolez: Um and I didn't, and and I it was like a really humbling moment to see them react in a you know, not in the exact same situation, but um in a situation with similar energy.
• 38:48
  Jeff Kolez: And you see them react the same way you did, um, get angry in the same way you did, even use the same words that you used.
• 38:56
  Jeff Kolez: Um, that's a really humbling experience.
• 38:59
  Jeff Kolez: Um so that you know, that becomes like a a guardrail.
• 39:09
  Jeff Kolez: You you you see your kids react to something in the same way you are, and you don't like that, that's something to change in yourself first.
• 39:19
  Khalila McCoy: Right.
• 39:20
  Khalila McCoy: Was it a conversation as well with them, or is it more just like, okay, I noticed this, I'm gonna start to make the change, and then you would see them start to make a shift as well.
• 39:31
  Jeff Kolez: It was funny.
• 39:31
  Jeff Kolez: It was I change it in myself and I would see a change in them.
• 39:35
  Khalila McCoy: Okay.
• 39:36
  Jeff Kolez: Sometimes it is a conversation.
• 39:38
  Jeff Kolez: Um, you know, you you and I can't think of one off the top of my head, but um, you know, you reacted in this way, and maybe I I've shown that in the past, and I, you know, I shouldn't.
• 39:51
  Jeff Kolez: I'm I'm sure I said something like that in the past.
• 39:54
  Jeff Kolez: Um but um I I think more often than not, I would look at the way they would act.
• 40:04
  Jeff Kolez: Um it's not to say they were bad kids, they were great kids.
• 40:08
  Jeff Kolez: Um but I would look at how I reacted and I would just change that and they would follow.
• 40:16
  Khalila McCoy: Mm-hmm.
• 40:16
  Khalila McCoy: I know when we talk about divorce, especially people who have kids, right?
• 40:21
  Khalila McCoy: There's always that conversation of do we do it because of the kids, or are we setting a bad example?
• 40:26
  Khalila McCoy: When you were going through this, and maybe even now, what was the concern that you had like for your children going through this process of now having a mom and dad who are separated?
• 40:38
  Jeff Kolez: Like I said, I didn't want them going through a relationship like I had.
• 40:43
  Jeff Kolez: It was it was toxic from the beginning.
• 40:48
  Jeff Kolez: Um how do and and the question at the beginning was how do I make sure I don't go through this again?
• 40:56
  Jeff Kolez: And how do I make sure my kids and my kids' kids and so on don't go through this?
• 41:01
  Jeff Kolez: Um and that that's that's a deep question when you when you really look into it, because then it's what am I passing forward and what was passed forward to me and why?
• 41:14
  Jeff Kolez: Um so it I don't I don't think I'm a cycle breaker.
• 41:24
  Jeff Kolez: Um I mean I did break a cycle, but it's I that's that's one stage because all you're doing is breaking something.
• 41:32
  Jeff Kolez: You have to build something after that.
• 41:35
  Jeff Kolez: Um and that's that comes in the form of what were the rituals that you didn't get growing up?
• 41:42
  Jeff Kolez: Um what were the what were the um developmental milestones you didn't get?
• 41:52
  Jeff Kolez: Uh what was the what were the what tools did you not get growing up?
• 41:58
  Jeff Kolez: And then you you give that to the kids.
• 42:01
  Jeff Kolez: So I'm not I'm not trying to sidestep your question, but it it's it's my my concern was not letting my kids go through something like this, because that's a it's a dark hole to go down into when when you when you're dealing with a situation where the suicide rate, like like I mentioned, is so high.
• 42:23
  Jeff Kolez: Um if you love your kids, you don't want them to go down that path.
• 42:28
  Jeff Kolez: And what um how do how do I give them as many tools as possible so they so that they don't deal with that?
• 42:38
  Khalila McCoy: Right.
• 42:38
  Khalila McCoy: So how does all of this lead to you writing your book?
• 42:44
  Jeff Kolez: Well, it's it's I think I still like I I told you, I I it took me five, ten years to recover from it.
• 42:52
  Jeff Kolez: Um and I think I still had some stuff rattling around inside that that I hadn't quite that I hadn't quite processed yet.
• 43:02
  Jeff Kolez: Um so one day I just it it was such a weird moment.
• 43:06
  Jeff Kolez: I just sat down and started writing.
• 43:09
  Jeff Kolez: Um, and I wanted to write about, you know, I think I I only intended it to be like a few pages on Substack that I was gonna throw up on Substack.
• 43:19
  Jeff Kolez: Um but then like five months later I had 50,000 words, 60,000 words.
• 43:25
  Jeff Kolez: Um, and it was all centered around how do I not go through something like this again?
• 43:31
  Jeff Kolez: What happened and how do I make sure I don't go through it again?
• 43:34
  Jeff Kolez: Um, that's really been the driving the driving question for me.
• 43:39
  Jeff Kolez: Um, and then I looked at all of the steps I took, all of the tools I I picked up along the way, um, and I put it into and I wrote it down.
• 43:50
  Jeff Kolez: And when you do something like that, when you write down your experiences, it really um crystallized.
• 43:59
  Jeff Kolez: it because it becomes almost almost yeah I went through that or no that was that wasn't true.
• 44:12
  Jeff Kolez: I I felt like it was true at the time but it wasn't it wasn't a true experience.
• 44:18
  Jeff Kolez: So it it really forces you to be honest about your involvement and your experiences.
• 44:23
  Jeff Kolez: So yeah I just I started writing and I I didn't stop until I ran out of things to say.
• 44:33
  Jeff Kolez: I've never written anything that long before um and I felt you could feel the emotions coming out as I was writing it.
• 44:41
  Jeff Kolez: Like it there were days I'd wake up angry there were days I'd wake up depressed but it felt like something that had to come out of me.
• 44:47
  Khalila McCoy: Yeah.
• 44:49
  Jeff Kolez: Um so that was I and like I was saying cycle breaker is is not the last step.
• 45:00
  Jeff Kolez: I think the last step in healing is transmitting what you've learned and passing that on to others so that they can use it um in their own on their own you know healing um so that became you know before I wrote that book I I thought I was done with it because I had broken a cycle um but then I realized you know I'm sitting with this this earned wisdom but so what?
• 45:31
  Jeff Kolez: Nobody's ever gonna see it.
• 45:32
  Jeff Kolez: What do you do with that?
• 45:34
  Jeff Kolez: Um so you've got to transmit it you've got to send it out into the world so that um so that other people can use it.
• 45:43
  Khalila McCoy: Yeah has it helped you as well to share your story with other people and to hear the questions that they get from your experience it does.
• 45:57
  Jeff Kolez: Um it really forces me to be honest with myself um and those experiences because when you look at at somebody who's struggling with the same thing you did, you can't tell a lie and you can't you have to embody what you're talking about otherwise you know he's gonna feel it.
• 46:24
  Khalila McCoy: Now this is a very like vulnerable topic right and we already talked about you know it's harder for men to share and you don't come from that place of emotion and lovey dovey like you were saying before.
• 46:37
  Khalila McCoy: Nope.
• 46:38
  Khalila McCoy: So when you decided to do this when you let this out were you nervous?
• 46:43
  Jeff Kolez: Do you still get nervous like talking to people like how and then deciding like how far to go into sharing how does that all come about for you I I think that depends on the on the situation um it takes some situational awareness to figure that out I find though that you sometimes I have to be the one to broach certain subjects um and I mean writing the book has you know yeah that's there's a lot of vulnerability there um and it's it's cost me some relationships too um but um this was somebody shared this with me uh that somatic coach I was telling you about in her one of her workshops she said I'd rather have the entire world against me than my own soul um and uh and that's what I I go back to um so yeah situational awareness like you don't go into the deep stuff first but you you know feel it out um but I think it you've you've got to be honest tell the truth even if it costs thinking about your book and like if a person's gonna read like you know maybe not the whole book a section what would be something that you really would want them to hone in on in that learning how to install sovereignty um and that and by that I mean specifically emotional sovereignty although all the other forms are nice like financial you know relationships um but I would look for emotional sovereignty so that's that's the first thing and then hone in on not being at learning to be okay with yourself and and forgiving yourself for maybe the things you did that weren't in line with who you are.
• 48:52
  Jeff Kolez: And when you do that you don't take so much anger with you.
• 49:01
  Jeff Kolez: I I think I had a real big anger phase um and I think a lot of men get trapped in that anger phase and they tend to point it at women in general.
• 49:13
  Jeff Kolez: They point it at their ex and women in general and I don't think that's that serves anybody.
• 49:19
  Jeff Kolez: So the sovereignty I talk about is is you first you've got to take a lot of accountability to yourself and um keep going until you don't feel that anger anymore.
• 49:33
  Jeff Kolez: Until you feel and I don't again I don't mean to be too touchy feely here, but you've got to feel gratitude for um the experience um it really for me it woke me up to living a much more honest life whereas um I could have gone through the rest of my life a shadow of myself what do you think is important for women to know about divorce from a male's perspective which women let's just your general lady out there that's a good question.
• 50:23
  Khalila McCoy: I think like I said before we assume certain things in divorce right we assume that men are going to be okay that they're fine um you know a lot of times like you go to court yeah duh the man pays child support things like that right and like you talked about there's so much more that goes into it there's so much more and like men obviously with the suicidal rate it's high.
• 50:43
  Khalila McCoy: So just women thinking through it either going through it or just a woman who who knows someone who's going through it right what what should we be considering that you feel like we're probably not considering that we're probably masking a lot of pain that we're that we're carrying it around with with us.
• 51:01
  Jeff Kolez: And I think a lot of that pain comes from I I hear this a lot from men that um they're con there's almost like a bewilderment I mean there's anger and and depression on this but there's almost like a bewilderment when you go through uh court and then you're just given this this child support bill and you're like this is all I am an ATM and it's it's that's where a lot of the anger comes from well you know not entirely but um I'm speaking on in broad strokes here.
• 51:36
  Khalila McCoy: Right.
• 51:37
  Jeff Kolez: But having your role reduced to input output you know or not even out input just here's here's this is my role to give money.
• 51:48
  Jeff Kolez: And I don't and and fathers are much more than that.
• 51:54
  Jeff Kolez: Um that's what I'm that's what I'm I think the next project I'm gonna work on is is the role of fathers in today's society and and how we've we've had our roles really reduced to go to work and and bring home a paycheck and we're so much more than that.
• 52:13
  Jeff Kolez: There were um not not to get too esoteric, but there were rituals thousands of years ago that the fathers had to um well in in some societies they're still going today that fathers had to participate in to bring their kids into adulthood.
• 52:30
  Jeff Kolez: And if in without the fathers those kids never turn into adults they just act as as kids in in adult bodies.
• 52:39
  Khalila McCoy: Right.
• 52:39
  Jeff Kolez: So fathers are absolutely um integral to you know and and mothers too of course but I'm speaking from the father side here they're absolutely integral to raising a kid into a full adult um and and it's a real shame that um their role gets reduced to ATM and and you know I I I understand how you get to that you know a lot of men aren't taught how to be men so they don't know how to teach their kids how to be men.
• 53:13
  Jeff Kolez: But they're men are absolutely integral and we and when we take that role away from men I think that causes a lot of despair in them.
• 53:26
  Jeff Kolez: Yeah I agree there's a there's a you know there's usually an initiation for boys into adulthood and I didn't I didn't get anything like that and I want to make sure my boys get something like that.
• 53:40
  Jeff Kolez: So but you know that that ritual of taking them out into the into the forest and you know maybe letting them survive for 24 hours maybe that's a little out of date.
• 53:52
  Jeff Kolez: So what is an initiation today look like um you know like what what is useful for boys today to turn them into men.
• 54:04
  Jeff Kolez: So that's that's kind of what I'm looking at.
• 54:07
  Jeff Kolez: It's very early early days on that.
• 54:10
  Khalila McCoy: Yeah I think I mean I think that's really interesting so I'll be interested to see where you go with it.
• 54:20
  Jeff Kolez: I'm traveling with my oldest right now we're we're driving across Canada we're gonna take probably six months to do it um and the goal is that he's gonna be self-sufficient you know financially by the end of it.
• 54:36
  Jeff Kolez: Um maybe not completely but you know well on his way make make his first dollar from his business you know that kind of thing.
• 54:44
  Khalila McCoy: Yeah.
• 54:45
  Jeff Kolez: Um so that's kind of the experiment and we're you know talking about um how to transmit that to others.
• 54:55
  Khalila McCoy: Mm-hmm I can see a lot of dads being interested in that I know like I said I'm married and I have a five year old and my husband talks a lot about that um just real um having good male role models in the community and then just like you said, how to pass on being a man to a child and obviously he's five now right but you are building those steps as he goes along.
• 55:20
  Khalila McCoy: So I know that weighs really heavy on him all the time of like how what am I modeling for my son?
• 55:26
  Khalila McCoy: What am I doing for him?
• 55:29
  Jeff Kolez: So I know that a lot of people want to see this is such a silly thing.
• 55:33
  Jeff Kolez: Um but I I think it it was about that age I can't quite remember I remember we went we went looking for a house and I introduced the boys to the real estate agent we were traveling with and they were all like giggly and shy and I was like no you don't no when you meet somebody new you stick your hand out and you shake their hand.
• 55:55
  Jeff Kolez: And they were like so this is I taught them how to shake hands like starting at like five years old I was like you look him in the eye and you grab his hand and give him a firm handshake.
• 56:09
  Jeff Kolez: Not not too firm.
• 56:10
  Jeff Kolez: You don't you know you know we went through like what a what an appropriate handshake was.
• 56:14
  Jeff Kolez: It's such a simple thing.
• 56:16
  Jeff Kolez: And then I would just like at the dinner table I would stick my hands out to like um practice it um and then you know we still do it.
• 56:26
  Jeff Kolez: Like that's that's bedtime.
• 56:28
  Jeff Kolez: You you shake their hand and it's and it's just become such a uh a ritual um right and you know they tell me that or their friends would come over and they would shake my hand and I they they'd ask me to grade them on on how they they they shook hands and I'd be like well it was a little clammy it was a little soft you know work on that.
• 56:52
  Jeff Kolez: But now they go into they um they meet new people and they're like that was a good handshake and I think it's such a simple way to build a good first impression and that's what a man does.
• 57:13
  Jeff Kolez: It shakes a he's good at shaking hands.
• 57:18
  Khalila McCoy: Well I like that too because like you said now their friends are even coming over right so you've talked about a little bit about community before but it's not just always that one person feeling alone like they have to instill all of it.
• 57:31
  Jeff Kolez: Now you have a community that you're forming and those boys' fathers probably could be like oh yeah this is something I need to do too it trickles yeah totally um and I think um and I yeah it does trickle and some of the other fathers now shake hands and it's uh it's just become a thing.
• 57:55
  Khalila McCoy: Yeah I remember as a kid when like guys would shake my hand and you'd have the really firm ones and then you'd be prepared to give the hard handshake and it would be this like light gentle thing.
• 58:05
  Khalila McCoy: I'm like, oh wait a second what's going on dead fish handsake.
• 58:08
  Jeff Kolez: Yeah no dead fish handsafe yes it's the little things in life right but it is it is those little things that matter um like that that's where confidence can stem from you have a good hand confident handshake and you know we would we would critique other people's handshakes and we'd be like oh that was a dead fish handshake or like no that felt gross.
• 58:33
  Jeff Kolez: You can you can tell a lot about somebody but by their by their handshake.
• 58:37
  Jeff Kolez: Do you have any other little things that you do to just help build your relationship with your kids or kind of build that legacy we talk about things that I've discovered that might be interesting to each of them.
• 58:54
  Jeff Kolez: My I I don't even know how this happened.
• 58:58
  Jeff Kolez: My youngest is 17.
• 59:00
  Jeff Kolez: He's still in high school he's finishing up um but he's on his own he's been reading books and I I started just giving him books we we all read um Harry Potter.
• 59:12
  Jeff Kolez: It took I don't know five years to do over at bedtime um and um he picked up he started picking up some of the other books I would recommend um he started with Water Ship Down.
• 59:27
  Jeff Kolez: He read Lord of the Rings on his own The Hobbit now he's reading a 17 year old um this year he read or last year he read Clockwork Orange 1984 classics right now he's reading he just finished Crime and Punishment by Dostoevsky and he's reading something called he discovered on his own called Master and Margarita I don't even know the author um but he's he's in on a and he wants to read Anna Karina next he's he's he's the and the brother's karma's off he's he's on like this Russian literature kick and I'm like I don't even know who this kid is anymore because he's reading these these these books.
• 1:00:14
  Jeff Kolez: So it's it's and I'm trying to teach them as much of the philosophy I've learned um I I hesitate to call it spirituality but give them the tools to deal with um life's little challenge life's little challenges like a divorce.
• 1:00:36
  Jeff Kolez: You know, give them give them the tools and kind of play with it.
• 1:00:42
  Jeff Kolez: So we we talk about um like I did we did a breathwork session this morning um just trying new things like that and seeing what sticks and what doesn't yeah so kind of looking at the things you've shared today even something from your book or just in life in general after hearing what you've shared for our listeners what would be your biggest takeaway for them to help them rise install as much sovereignty as you possibly can and in order to do that you've got to take as much responsibility for who you are in this moment.
• 1:01:25
  Jeff Kolez: So this is just this is the starting point and look for how you can take as much responsibility so that you can have as much sovereignty I like that all right well thank you for sharing today I appreciate your time um before we go I do want you to just remind everybody where they can find more information about you.
• 1:01:48
  Jeff Kolez: Go to my website Jeff Kales J-E-F-F-K-O-L-E-Z dot com all right and I'll put that in the show notes and you can find the book there too right yep and then when your second book comes out that will be there too it'll be there there's a um there's a sign up form um you can get the curse inventory so we didn't we didn't really touch on this but um what is that how to take stock of the curses that you're living under so I don't mean curses as in like a witch cursing you but um what are the negative stories that you're carrying that were installed by a um possibly a parent but you know any author figure of authority um and that was one of the steps I I took for myself is to just take inventory on all of those negative stories I've been carrying with me.
• 1:02:52
  Khalila McCoy: Yeah that sounds interesting I'm gonna check that out myself and there's a sign up link on my website for that.
• 1:02:58
  Khalila McCoy: All right I will all right Jeff well thank you very much for your time again and I hope you have a good day.
• 1:03:05
  Khalila McCoy: You too as we close today's conversation no matter how you feel about divorce I hope you walk away with a clearer picture of the emotional work required to rise on the other side of it.
• 1:03:21
  Khalila McCoy: Jeff was honest about the choices he made while trying to survive including some he openly admits he wouldn't recommend because in the end he learned that healing doesn't come from an escape.
• 1:03:33
  Khalila McCoy: It comes from the hard work the reflection and the courage to sit with yourself when the silence feels loud.
• 1:03:40
  Khalila McCoy: That's a lesson so many of us can connect to so many different situations.
• 1:03:45
  Khalila McCoy: One of the most powerful parts of Jeff's story for me was his determination to figure out how to never let this happen again not just for himself, but for his sons.
• 1:03:58
  Khalila McCoy: He wanted to become the kind of man who could protect them from repeating the same patterns, the same pain, the same emotional confusion that he faced that desire became a turning point.
• 1:04:09
  Khalila McCoy: It pushed him to look inward and to confront the anger he had buried and to turn that anger into wisdom instead of letting it harden into bitterness I really loved when he said to let go of anger because love and inspiration serve you better in the long run.
• 1:04:27
  Khalila McCoy: The choice to rise has to be intentional.
• 1:04:31
  Khalila McCoy: I like that idea that being a cycle breaker isn't enough.
• 1:04:36
  Khalila McCoy: Yes you're breaking something but what are you choosing to now build?
• 1:04:42
  Khalila McCoy: Jeff's story is a reminder that even after the hardest chapters you can grow you can heal and you can rebuild anything and you can choose a life that's led by love and inspiration for yourself and for the people who are watching you.
• 1:04:59
  Khalila McCoy: Thank you Jeff for sharing with us today.
• 1:05:03
  Khalila McCoy: If you want to learn more about Jeff his book or ways to work with him his website is linked in the show notes.
• 1:05:09
  Khalila McCoy: Thank you friend for listening learning and being curious along with me.
• 1:05:14
  Khalila McCoy: As you move through the rest of your day I hope you take a moment to listen a little louder to yourself, to the people you love and to the things that connect us in ways we sometimes forget to notice.
• 1:05:27
  Khalila McCoy: I'll meet you back here next time.
• 1:05:30
  Khalila McCoy: See you bye