Latest / Loud & Lifted / How to Set Boundaries at Work Before Burnout Sets In with Carrie of Hey Work Friend

Transcript

How to Set Boundaries at Work Before Burnout Sets In with Carrie of Hey Work Friend · Loud & Lifted

0:00
Welcome to Loud and Lifted. I'm your host, Betsy
0:02
Hamm. Today's episode is with Carrie, also known
0:05
as Haywork Friend, and we are getting into something
0:08
every high achieving woman has probably struggled
0:11
with at some point, boundaries at work. Carrie
0:14
has spent years inside corporate HR, and now
0:17
she's on the other side, helping people understand
0:19
what's really happening behind the scenes at
0:21
work with managers, HR, toxic bosses, coworkers,
0:25
burnout. and all the messy situations we usually
0:28
vent about in the group chat. We talk about why
0:32
boundaries feel so hard, especially for women,
0:35
how to push back without sounding defensive,
0:37
what to say when your boss keeps piling on more
0:40
work, how to handle coworkers who treat you like
0:43
their backup plan, and why ignoring your limits
0:47
can have a real impact on your health. And what
0:50
I love about this conversation is that Carrie
0:52
gives us actual language. Not fluffy, just advocate
0:55
for your self -advice, but scripts, context,
0:58
and practical ways to handle these conversations.
1:01
So if you've ever said yes when you really wanted
1:04
to say no, answered emails way too late, carried
1:08
work that wasn't yours, or wondered whether HR
1:11
is actually the right place to go, this one is
1:14
for you. Welcome to Loud and Lifted. Carrie,
1:17
thank you so much for being here. Thank you for
1:20
having me. Yes. So you're an HR professional
1:24
by trade. You have spent years inside corporate
1:27
HR. You've been part of those meetings, those
1:30
conversations, and now you've pivoted. And you
1:34
are, I would kind of say, on the other side of
1:36
the table because the work that we don't use
1:39
when we talk about our HR professionals, no offense
1:41
to any HR people. friends that are in HR, but
1:44
as a friend, right? Like personally, 100%. But
1:47
professionally, that's not kind of how we explain
1:50
HR people. But here you are as a Haywork friend.
1:54
And now you're going to kind of give us the inside
1:56
scoop of what really happens in a lot of these
1:58
situations. And a lot of your content is around
2:02
boundaries, having boundaries at work with your
2:05
manager, how to respond, a lot of those scripts.
2:08
So we'll get into those, but let's start with
2:11
Why are boundaries so hard for many of us at
2:14
work? Yeah, I mean, the obvious one is that it
2:18
seems really scary. It is scary. I will say I
2:24
know the scripts myself and I can still get scared
2:27
of these kinds of things. But the fear seeming
2:31
difficult. You don't want to disappoint people
2:33
and you want to be seen as as that team player.
2:36
But there's also a ton of other pressures. that
2:41
we feel. One, I mean, high achievers, they often
2:44
think that constant busyness that equates to
2:48
being a valuable employee. And they view rest
2:51
or boundary setting often as a sign of, of laziness.
2:55
I, I, again, myself do that sometimes if I'm
2:57
like resting. And then after I get up, I'm like,
3:00
Oh my God, I can't believe I didn't accomplish
3:02
anything. And then I have guilt and you almost,
3:05
you know, view that as, as a failure. And oftentimes
3:10
high achievers actually do view burnout as a
3:13
personal failure. And I want to actually correct
3:18
that right now for everyone that literally the
3:21
WHO, the World Health Organization has officially
3:24
noted that burnout is officially an occupational
3:28
phenomenon. Oh, it's not you that this is truly
3:32
a workplace issue. So I just want to call that
3:35
out. Interesting. But especially in today's world
3:39
with all of the layoffs that are going on too,
3:43
we're afraid of job loss. And your manager controls
3:47
your livelihood. And you don't want to disappoint
3:50
them for fear that they're gonna terminate you.
3:54
It's such a reality of the times that we're in.
3:58
There's even a nervous system response that is...
4:03
partly to blame for this as well, too. We often
4:05
think of the nervous system if there's a threat,
4:08
there's fight or flight or freeze. Those are
4:12
the ones we talk about. But there's another one,
4:14
another response actually called the fawn response.
4:17
And that is our nervous system reacting to a
4:20
perceived threat. And the intrinsic reaction
4:25
is to try and please and to accommodate the threat.
4:28
Literally, that is your nervous system reacting.
4:32
Interesting. I've never heard of that. And you
4:33
think of fight or flight, but that's kind of
4:35
the extent of it. Right. Yes. No, it's literally
4:39
a nervous system response. So yeah, why are boundaries
4:42
so hard at work? All of those things. It is hard.
4:48
So I mean, and again, hard for me too, right?
4:50
And I, I know all the scripts, but when it comes
4:54
to practice, it is challenging. So in your experience,
4:58
have you seen women struggle with this more than
5:01
men? Yes. And I will say, though, men do struggle
5:07
with this, too. I have had a lot of men in my
5:11
DMs. But the primary grouping of my audience
5:16
are women, and they are constantly talking to
5:18
me about this and their struggles with it. And
5:22
there's so many biases at work. there is something
5:26
called the likability penalty for women. And
5:30
essentially, society, professional cultures socialize
5:35
women to be agreeable, kind, communal. But when
5:39
women assert a boundary or communicate directly,
5:43
then they violate these outdated norms. But they're
5:49
frequently penalized with subjective labels like
5:52
being bossy or difficult. And I think we all
5:55
know that this has been an issue for a long time,
5:59
that men who exhibit the exact same assertive
6:01
behaviors, they're praised as decisive leaders.
6:03
And so I feel like women are always constantly
6:07
walking a tight rope between being respected
6:10
for their competence or being penalized for not
6:14
being accommodating enough. Oh, that's very true.
6:17
And I do think about that. Women always want
6:19
to be generally speaking, you know, supportive
6:22
and helpful. And so we say yes to things and
6:25
take things on because we don't want to let somebody
6:28
down, right? We feel bad and we put our needs
6:32
essentially last because, hey, we're a team player.
6:35
We can do more. And then put ourselves in the
6:37
situations where there are no boundaries. There's
6:40
no pushing back. I feel that myself too. And
6:44
again, I talk about this all the time, but right
6:46
now I'm helping people oftentimes who are in
6:49
crisis about work. And my gosh, it feels like
6:54
I need to be accommodating to be able to meet
6:57
with them to I don't want to leave them hanging.
6:59
But I also have to remind myself to that I have
7:02
to set boundaries or it will literally impact
7:06
my health. Right. But it's hard. Well, and you
7:09
bring up a good point. I think sometimes we think
7:11
there's this perfection of, well, that I'm always
7:14
going to hold my line. I'm always going to have
7:15
pushback. I'm always going to be able to do that.
7:17
Well, guess what? Even people who are good at
7:19
it still have those moments where they're like,
7:21
oh my gosh, I've taken on too much. I shouldn't
7:24
have agreed to this. And it happens, right? No
7:26
one's going to nail this perfectly. being intentional
7:30
about it, getting uncomfortable. And you mentioned
7:33
you have the scripts. You tell other people what
7:36
to say, and then it comes to you doing it. You
7:39
might get nervous. You might get anxiety. It's
7:41
still going to feel, I want to say not feel emotional.
7:45
You're still going to have those emotions when
7:47
you're going through that and you know what you're
7:49
doing. So the more you do it, like everything
7:51
else, you get better, you get more comfortable,
7:53
but it takes practice essentially to do it. And
7:57
again, just to validate people, Two, go back
8:01
to the fawn response, where it is literally a
8:03
part of our nervous system to try to placate
8:07
someone to be agreeable. And you can't help it.
8:10
It is literally your nervous system. Right. You
8:12
cannot fight it. You can learn how to deal with
8:14
it, but you can't fight it or change it. So let's
8:19
get this really practical because probably the
8:21
area where we have to push back the most and
8:25
figure out those boundaries is with our bosses.
8:28
And I see you talk about this a lot. So let's
8:32
talk through some of those situations where you
8:34
need to put that boundary up. And how do we do
8:37
that? You're really great at saying, hey, don't
8:39
say this when this happens. And this is what
8:41
to say. I love that. So what are some of those
8:44
situations that you see and hear a lot of people
8:46
feel like, what do I do? And let's talk through
8:48
one of those. Yeah. I mean, I think it's those
8:51
last minute tasks that come up that you know,
8:53
everyone can relate to where it's the end of
8:56
the day and your manager comes and gives you
8:59
something else or you are already so dang busy
9:03
and you're dying because you've taken too much
9:06
on and your manager comes and asks you to do
9:07
something else. Like those are the kinds of things
9:09
that I think everyone can relate to. And that
9:12
comes up a lot. And I'm a big research person.
9:17
All of my stuff is always research backed because
9:19
I want to make sure that I feel really good about
9:22
what I put out there. And I will say like research
9:24
specifically tells us that the best way to handle
9:28
this is a three -step process. And so the first
9:32
step is to have a positive reaction to it, not
9:35
agreeing, but a positive reaction. Like, oh,
9:39
that's a great project. Or, oh, I would absolutely
9:43
love to having that positive reaction. And I
9:46
know I said absolutely love to, but then you
9:48
say, I would absolutely love to. Right now I
9:51
really heads down into this specific project,
9:55
right? So you positive that positive reaction
9:58
and then you do the decline and Then you provide
10:03
an alternate. So I just said I'm really heads
10:06
down into this project the alternate would be
10:09
this is something I can add onto my plate tomorrow
10:12
or You know, would you rather I prioritize what
10:17
I just said or this new thing? So it's that positive
10:21
reaction, the decline, and then the alternative.
10:25
That is how research says to approach it. I love
10:28
that. And because you're right, if you're just
10:30
not going to say yes, right, like that's the
10:31
first goal, but you just can't be like, oh, I
10:33
absolutely can't do this. There's no way. Or
10:35
like it's, you know, coming across so negative
10:37
or so much anxiety around it, your boss is going
10:39
to be like, OK, they don't understand. what else
10:42
you have or a volume of work. So I think that's
10:45
a great way where, you know, being on the receiving
10:47
end as a boss, I'd be like, oh, OK. And that
10:51
shows me that you have that foresight to know,
10:53
like, I need to prioritize. I need to understand
10:55
what's most important. Like, let's start there.
10:58
And to me, that would signal somebody who was
11:01
good at their job. And that is also, again, exactly
11:04
what research does, too, is that the more that
11:08
you are able to selectively say no, is managing
11:12
up, managing your manager, and yes, absolutely
11:15
reflects well on you to exactly why you just
11:19
said. And if you are constantly just a yes person,
11:22
you can get lost in the work and it's probably
11:26
might not be as good of a work product. But again,
11:30
it's showing that you don't know how to prioritize
11:33
the critical business needs. So, you know, the
11:36
joys of technology, the other part with boundaries
11:38
is, you know, back in the day, You didn't have
11:41
a phone, right? There was no texting. There was
11:44
no email when you left the office. Those days
11:46
have obviously been long gone, right? We all
11:49
have access to, also have access to our email,
11:52
texts, whatever. People can get in touch with
11:54
us at any time. And so we probably have been
11:58
in those situations where our boss is texting
12:00
us or emailing us and expecting an answer on
12:03
a weekend at night, first thing in the morning.
12:06
There seems to be a lack of boundaries generally
12:09
in a lot of companies because it's 24 -7 and
12:12
that's not fair. That's not what anyone's paid
12:14
for. We have our work hours and our work days
12:17
and sure, emergencies come up. Obviously, you
12:20
know, that's going to happen. But the normal
12:23
operation, if somebody has a boss who just literally
12:27
has no boundaries in terms of texting and emailing
12:31
and calling way outside of the hours, office
12:34
hours, that's just isn't necessary. How do you
12:36
handle that as an employee? It is so hard. And
12:41
I when I post videos specifically about evening.
12:45
boundaries actually get a ton of debate, because
12:49
I get about like 50 % of people that are like,
12:53
absolutely not, I will not respond to, to a text
12:59
after 5pm. And then I get other people that are
13:02
like, well, you haven't been in the consulting
13:04
world, or you're clearly not in tech, that, you
13:08
know, is expected. And so there's a lot of nuance
13:11
in this question. And I think it all comes down
13:14
to, if you are trying to set your boundaries,
13:18
you need to stand by your boundaries. And so
13:21
you need to be realistic about that. Because
13:25
if you don't have the conversation, then you
13:28
are going to end up working all the time, responding
13:31
all the time. And if you are constantly responding
13:34
to your manager at 8 p .m., you are teaching
13:37
them that that is okay. You're teaching them
13:41
that you do that. And so ideally, right? When
13:45
this first starts happening, that is when you
13:49
would set the boundary. And again, I think we
13:51
can do that positive still, that I appreciate
13:55
that these are all really high priority, right?
13:59
That's the positive right there. I appreciate
14:01
that this is important. And then that decline,
14:06
you know, in the evenings, I do need to Either
14:10
spend that time, you know want to spend that
14:13
time with my family or I want to make sure that
14:15
I am Recharging so that I am good to go the next
14:18
morning can we go ahead and you know schedule
14:23
a call in the morning if during work hours if
14:27
there is something that you need or you know,
14:30
if you want to Shoo me an email just understand
14:34
I will respond in the morning as soon as I get
14:38
to work and I want to set that expectation. And
14:42
you really have to hold true to those boundaries.
14:45
What I will say is if you have a manager that
14:48
completely ignores that, you could be looking
14:51
at someone that is a toxic manager and that this
14:55
is just something that they do. And certainly
14:57
that's a whole other conversation in itself.
15:00
But you also have to have that realization that
15:03
toxic managers often don't change. So you really
15:06
have to think about what your options are here.
15:09
And either you hold the boundary, but if they're
15:12
still always texting you and that impacts you,
15:15
you have to think, do I need to try and move
15:17
an organization or do I need to try and move
15:20
out? And I know that seems extreme, but it is
15:26
extreme to experience burnout. It impacts everything
15:31
from a mental standpoint, from a physical standpoint.
15:35
Let me drop a crazy statistic on you. All right.
15:38
In the U .S., we spend $187 billion on medical
15:47
treatment because of burnout alone. Oh, wow.
15:54
Yeah. $187 billion a year. So that is treatment
15:58
for mental health, treatment for on the physical
16:01
side too. $187 billion. Wow. That's crazy. Isn't
16:05
that absolutely crazy? We are legitimately needing
16:08
to seek so much treatment for all this. And that
16:11
is why it is important to take extreme measures
16:14
and to hold your boundaries. Well, and you used
16:17
a good word about the boundaries and setting
16:19
the expectations. And I have worked in a lot
16:21
of different cultures. I worked in cultures where
16:24
it was like you were praised for being like no
16:28
work -life balance, right? Like to have that
16:30
24 -7 on, sending emails at midnight, like that
16:33
was like, oh, good job. This is what we expect,
16:36
right? Terrible to your point, ties into the
16:38
burnout culture, not a place you want to be.
16:41
And, you know, I remember through the years trying
16:44
to be sensitive to that, having a life, you know,
16:47
worrying about my own boundaries. But I also
16:49
had people on my team various times who were
16:51
very clear on their boundaries. Hey, If something
16:54
is urgent, text me or call me. If it's not, I'm
16:58
not responding to emails after 5 p .m. Whatever
17:01
it was. They weren't city, they weren't at 3
17:03
sexual, but they communicated. They're, this
17:06
is how I operate. If you need something, it's
17:08
emergency, great. was never really going to be
17:10
an emergency, right? There's only a few industries
17:13
where it is life and death. Most of us are not
17:17
in life or death situations. But I do think that
17:20
communicating is really important and it's hard
17:23
if you're in a culture where there is that toxic,
17:26
no boundaries, you have to be able to still put
17:28
them up into your point. Sometimes maybe it's
17:31
not the best place to be. So I think the communication
17:33
is the really key part there. So you mentioned
17:37
Toxic bosses and that's apparently one of our
17:40
most favorite topics on this episode because
17:42
every time you've talked about bad bosses It's
17:46
like our best listen to episodes, which is unfortunate,
17:49
right? Like that's that's a shame, but that's
17:52
real life so someone has a toxic boss and they're
17:56
just Being treated poorly. They're you know,
18:00
just feel like things are very unfair When do
18:03
I go to HR? How do I handle that? How do we handle
18:06
those where we try to put the boundaries up,
18:09
communication expectations, and here we are where
18:12
we're not in a good place. We're not making progress.
18:15
It's a tough one because I will say this directly
18:19
that we said at the beginning, HR is not your
18:25
friend. That is the reality of it, even if they
18:29
want to be. I was an HR person with all the best
18:32
intention in the world. At the end of the day,
18:35
though, the company pays my paycheck. The company
18:38
is responsible for my livelihood, so my loyalty
18:40
has to be to the company. And it's not that HR
18:43
people are bad. It's just that they are people
18:46
that care about their livelihood as well, too.
18:50
I say that all because that means that when you
18:52
go to HR, you have to be very careful. And you
18:59
have to try carefully. You just have to go in
19:01
knowing again that their loyalty has to be to
19:04
the company. That doesn't mean you shouldn't
19:07
go to them because of a toxic boss. You just
19:09
have to be aware of that reality. One thing that
19:15
I think is very important is to document things
19:19
that are happening. Because what you want to
19:23
do is go to HR With non emotional evidence You
19:29
they don't care about an emotional problem, right?
19:32
But if you go and share here is what's happening.
19:35
Here is the impact of it And you really got to
19:39
try not be emotional which I know is But that
19:43
is that is really important you're right. It's
19:48
it's it has to be black and white And, you know,
19:51
it can't be, I felt this way or I thought this,
19:54
like it has to be something that happened. And,
19:57
and to your point, and again, this is not a split
19:59
on HR people. They're to protect the company.
20:02
They're, they're like protecting employees as
20:04
secondary, tertiary. It's protecting the company.
20:07
So that's just the nature of the beast. And to
20:11
your point, having the documentation before you
20:14
escalate something is really important because
20:16
can you show how that's. impacting the company
20:19
maybe. Yeah. And so toxic bosses is absolutely
20:25
something that I get a ton of in my DMs. So,
20:28
so many people are having this issue. And again,
20:32
you can go to HR. You just also have to remind
20:38
yourself that toxic bosses often don't change.
20:42
So if you've tried to set those boundaries and
20:44
they are still doing it, if they are those micromanagers,
20:48
if they are undermining you, there is only so
20:52
much that HR can even do about it. They can give
20:57
feedback to that manager, but you also have to
21:02
know that I'm sure that manager is going to try
21:04
really hard to figure out who went to HR about
21:08
them. And so those are that risk. And even if
21:10
HR doesn't tell them, they're certainly going
21:12
to have their eyes open. Because I've seen that
21:16
too, being in HR. And so that, again, is why
21:19
I say that if you have that toxic manager, you
21:22
have to start thinking about, they're probably
21:25
not going to change. So do I need to find another
21:27
place within this organization? And if that's
21:30
not available, do I need to start that exit strategy?
21:33
Yep. That's great advice. Hard, but... Totally
21:36
true. It sucks. It truly sucks. Yeah. So let's
21:41
switch gears a little bit. We talked about how
21:43
to have boundaries with your boss, but what about
21:46
your coworkers, right? We all want to be team
21:49
players, we want to be supportive, but how do
21:51
we establish those boundaries with our coworkers
21:53
that we don't become the dumping ground for work
21:56
because we get our job done? And that is a real
22:00
thing. If you say yes to helping someone, the
22:04
first time, they're going to look at you as their
22:06
backup plan. They're going to look at you as
22:08
the person to go to. And when I think of my own
22:11
experience, I feel like, oh, I've had those people
22:13
too, where I'm like, oh, I know who to go to
22:16
and how I'm sure that was really annoying for
22:18
them. And so it is follow that same strategy.
22:24
It's that positive, that decline and that alternate
22:28
the, hey, I'd really love to help you out. Right
22:32
now, I just don't have the capacity. If you can
22:37
hold until Monday, I'd be happy to. No, that's
22:41
if you have capacity Monday. You've got to know
22:43
your schedule there. Or I wonder if perhaps this
22:47
is something that Sarah could support you with,
22:51
or provide that alternative. Another alternative
22:54
to supporting coworkers is to point them in the
22:57
right direction. like point them to resources
23:01
or say, hey, I can look at your outline for five
23:05
minutes, or I can look at this for five minutes,
23:07
but you should not be the one that executes.
23:10
You need to just point them in the right direction.
23:12
And that can be your alternate too, right? The,
23:15
hey, I'd love to support you. Unfortunately,
23:18
I can't right now. Here's the alternate of, you
23:21
know, but I'd be happy to look at that your outline
23:23
for five minutes or be happy to point you in
23:26
this direction. I like that, especially because,
23:29
let's be honest, there's some people who, it
23:32
might not even be a capacity issue that I need
23:33
to push back on, but like, I'm tired of doing
23:35
your job for you, right? Like, I could do this
23:38
too, but this is your job. So, you know, I think
23:41
that's important where you don't even have to
23:43
apologize or make it about your capacity, right?
23:46
Like, and of course you don't want to come back
23:47
and be like, It's not my job to yourself, but
23:50
to your point kind of pointing them in the right
23:53
direction of tools or I can look at this for
23:55
you. But I think that's a big challenge is again,
23:58
you're a high performer. You have a low performer
24:00
in your team. They're going to catch on real
24:01
quick. Like, oh, I can get you to do these things
24:04
for me. So it's having those, again, boundaries
24:06
and being able to have those conversations. Is
24:09
there any other recommendations when it comes
24:11
to the coworker piece of just when they're hard
24:14
to deal with and you need those boundaries? Yeah,
24:17
I think at the end of the day you want to respond
24:20
warmly, of course. And a warm no is okay. And
24:25
to your point, you don't have to say, you know,
24:27
to capacity. You know, you can simply, you don't
24:30
have to over explain. You can simply say, you
24:32
know, unfortunate, you know. again, would love
24:34
to, that positive, start with that positive.
24:38
I'd love to help you. Unfortunately, I'm not
24:40
able to right now. Here is where I think you
24:43
would be the right place for you to go to get
24:45
started. And then if you do fumble that, it's
24:50
okay to go back and say, I recognize actually
24:53
that I wasn't clear yesterday. Here is what I'm
24:57
able to do. You can go back and reset that boundary
25:01
with them. So do we ever communicate that with
25:03
our manager? Assuming we share the same manager
25:05
and that keeps happening. Like, how do I handle
25:08
that from a peer standpoint where I have somebody
25:11
on my team who keeps doing this? We have the
25:13
same boss. Do I tell them? How does that work?
25:18
That is an excellent question. And again, I think
25:20
this is where relationship dynamics come into
25:24
play. all the time in the corporate political
25:28
world. Because we know that if you go to your
25:31
boss and your peer finds out about that as well,
25:34
too, that relationship is not going to be great
25:38
after that. And so I think you need to think
25:41
clearly about the fallout of you going to their
25:47
boss. And if that is something that you feel
25:50
comfortable connecting with your coworker about,
25:54
that's That's probably the best place to start.
25:57
Also recognizing too, though, that there could
26:00
be some hurt feelings there too. But if you do
26:03
not have that kind of relationship or you cannot
26:05
have that conversation with them, I think it
26:08
is fair to connect with your manager. But again,
26:12
you got to keep that emotion out of it and really
26:16
focus on the work. Right. I have concerned about,
26:20
you know, X, Y, Z getting done. Or, you know,
26:24
I am concerned of, you know, I need to focus
26:27
on this, this and this. And I don't know if I
26:29
have that capacity to assist this person with
26:33
that. So then you're focusing on the work and
26:34
you're not putting necessarily the blame on this
26:37
person. I like that. Because if you can avoid
26:40
the blame, then first of all, doesn't feel personal.
26:44
And second of all, even if it is. totally their
26:46
fault. It's hard to recover from that from a
26:48
relationship standpoint. So if it can be more
26:51
explaining the situation and what the impact
26:53
of that is, then that's easier for everybody
26:55
to move forward for sure. So that's 100 % advice.
26:59
So we probably have those moments where, whether
27:02
it's with our boss or co -worker, where we didn't
27:05
handle it perfectly. We didn't use that, you
27:08
know, having something positive, you know, saying
27:11
why not, having an alternative, right? anxious,
27:15
we get emotional or frustrated, we're almost
27:17
burnt out. How do we recover from that? If I
27:20
totally blew it with my boss or even a co -worker,
27:24
how do I recover? One, you have to give yourself
27:28
so much grace in this. You do. If you beat yourself
27:32
up about it, it's not going to accomplish anything,
27:35
and it might make you more nervous the next time,
27:38
too. True. You have to be understanding of yourself.
27:40
And again, you've learned about the fawn response.
27:43
It's a nervous system reaction. This isn't you.
27:46
So give yourself that grace. And then what you
27:50
need to do is you need to hold your boundary.
27:52
You need to approach it again. Don't just give
27:55
up. And how you can do that, similar to what
27:57
I said with the coworker, again, of, you know,
27:59
I recognize actually that I was not clear yesterday.
28:04
Here is what I am looking at. And then the alternative,
28:07
right? Still that same path, if you will, that
28:10
positive decline alternative, but restating,
28:14
you know what? I recognize I wasn't clear yesterday.
28:16
Or you could say, you know what? I realized that
28:20
I, excuse me, sorry. Or you can say, I did not
28:29
realize that I had X, Y, and Z. I want to go
28:31
back to our conversation yesterday and boundary.
28:36
So give yourself that grace. Think through how
28:38
you want to tackle it again. But you've got to
28:42
hold that boundary. Yeah. It's not just, oh,
28:44
I'll try again next time. Right. Don't do that.
28:47
You're going to hurt yourself in this. Yeah.
28:49
Yeah. And I love just acknowledging it. Again,
28:51
we're human. We're all going to mess up a conversation,
28:54
not say the right thing. be too aggressive, not
28:56
aggressive, whatever. So being able to just go
28:59
back and be like, hey, I need to revisit this.
29:01
Let's talk about this again. Or I didn't handle
29:03
this appropriately yesterday. That's OK. And
29:06
the respect level for somebody when they do that
29:08
is going to go up. Yes. Yes. Right now, people,
29:14
the more that we can be transparent with others
29:17
and recognize that we are. all human. The easier
29:21
it is, honestly, to do business. It helps a lot.
29:25
No, that's very true. So we've talked about the
29:28
boundaries and how to better set them. But what
29:33
happens when we don't? And we talked about the
29:36
burnout and the mental health crisis. And what's
29:39
going to happen to us if we keep ignoring our
29:42
limits? Yeah. It's not, it's not great. I mean,
29:47
like I said, right, 187 billion spent from a
29:51
medical standpoint. But what happens is you have
29:55
cortisol, which is our stress hormone. And the
29:57
more that cortisol is elevated, if you have chronic
30:01
stress, that is what causes a ton of physical
30:05
issues, especially for women specifically, if
30:09
you've had a knot here constantly in your neck.
30:12
Yes, very common. It is from stress. It is not
30:16
just, you know, you worked out and you've got
30:19
knots, right? Very, very common for that to be
30:23
here. For men, it's actually lower back. That's
30:25
where they will get their pain. There is a stat
30:28
that working more than 55 hours in a week significantly
30:33
increases your risk of heart attack and stroke.
30:35
Oh. Yes. And I feel like people do that all the
30:39
time and they, you know, I was working 55 hours
30:41
a week this week and it literally impacts. potential
30:46
for a heart attack. I have a friend who at 39
30:49
had a heart attack recently, and it was the most...
30:52
Oh my gosh. He's okay. It was the most shocking
30:55
thing in the world. He worked out with a personal
30:57
trainer. He was looking great. And then when
31:01
we heard that he had the heart attack, it was
31:03
horrifying and just so unexpected. And it was
31:06
100 % from stress. And I've had other people
31:11
in my DMs that have had heart attacks at a young
31:14
age, and it's becoming more and more prevalent
31:16
because of stress. because of that cortisol.
31:21
Yesterday, I had someone that I was chatting
31:22
with, and she was mentioning how she had gotten
31:25
shingles from stress. And I was like, yeah. And
31:28
I was like, wait, have we chatted before? And
31:30
she was like, no. I was like, oh, literally someone
31:32
else in my email had just told me how they had
31:34
shingles from stress. Yeah, so many people email
31:38
me constantly about all their health issues.
31:41
There's just a ton. And I personally experienced
31:46
this myself, which was absolutely wild. I was
31:50
in a situation where I had a toxic boss, I was
31:54
working seven days a week from fear. I feel like
31:57
I had to get everything done and I worked myself
32:01
into an autoimmune disorder. Yes, I was constantly
32:05
in pain. It was absolutely awful. I was waking
32:08
up in the middle of the night to foam roll. Like
32:10
I constantly had to pee. foam rolling. And at
32:13
the same time, too, I did not feel like I could
32:15
go see a doctor because there was no time to
32:18
see the doctor. Oh, no. I had to be working.
32:21
And again, you just get yourself into this habit
32:24
where you ignore the physical symptoms because
32:27
you are so focused on the work for all the reasons
32:31
that we talked about. So thinking of your personal
32:35
situation, what would you have done differently
32:38
to stop it before it got that bad? Yeah. I mean,
32:42
and I, I did all the right things too. I did
32:46
go to my boss and shared with her, you know,
32:50
the workload, how many hours that I was working
32:53
and her response was simply to prioritize better,
32:56
but she would not give me, she would not take
32:58
anything off, off my plate. I went to HR and
33:02
chatted about it, right? All these, all these
33:04
things, right? I know what you're supposed to
33:05
do. So I did them to make sure. And I think it
33:09
was a huge. a huge lesson for me. I mean, clearly,
33:14
because at the end of the day, I ended up working
33:18
all those hours out of fear. I actually ended
33:21
up taking a medical leave when the pain got too
33:24
real. That's actually when I went and finally
33:26
saw a doctor out on medical leave. And while
33:29
I was on a medical leave, I actually got laid
33:31
off. And so you think of all the reasons that
33:35
you are working so hard, right? You are so afraid
33:39
of being let go, that job security. And in the
33:43
end, I was laid off anyway. And I was just talking
33:47
to someone yesterday who was just part of one
33:49
of the massive layoffs that we've had. And he
33:52
was just talking about too, like all these late
33:54
nights, like I put in so much extra effort. And
33:58
at the end of the day, it just doesn't matter.
34:00
You can still get laid off. I worked so hard
34:04
and all that I was left with was an autoimmune
34:06
disorder. It's a terrible bumper sticker. Pretty
34:09
horrible, right? Yes. But so you really have
34:12
to be thinking through that. And I'm so glad
34:15
that I ended up taking a leave. And one, I will
34:18
say, I mean, I took my leave because of the pain.
34:21
You can take leave because of anxiety, because
34:24
of depression. that is an ADA covered disorder.
34:29
And so just know that that is an option as well
34:31
too. And I would so encourage people to use that,
34:34
especially because we are having this epidemic
34:37
of people with that anxiety, with that depression,
34:41
because of all this burnout. And so that is something
34:43
I absolutely wanna encourage folks to look into.
34:47
That's great information. And you're right. I've
34:50
seen it time and time again. People who have
34:51
sacrificed their family time, their health, their
34:55
personal life, all of this to be 24 seven days
34:59
a week. And guess what? At the end of the day,
35:02
it didn't matter. They didn't get the promotion.
35:04
Most of them ended up still being let go. That
35:06
was the situation. So it's like we're willing
35:09
to sacrifice. everything for a job who's not
35:13
going to sacrifice anything for you. And that's
35:16
the reality. I mean, that's just the world we
35:18
live in. It's business, but that's why you really
35:21
have to take care of yourself and start with
35:23
those boundaries to your earlier point of that
35:27
to help make that not happen. Yeah. Well, and
35:30
especially today with all of these layoffs, it's
35:33
a different world than it was before where loyalty
35:36
to a company mattered. there is no right there
35:40
is no loyalty anymore they are not loyal to you
35:42
right we just said you can work all these hours
35:44
and still get laid off you need to view this
35:47
as a transaction they are not loyal to you you
35:50
should not be loyal to them it used to be such
35:53
a bad thing to say oh i'm just here for a paycheck
35:56
but you know what Just go there for that paycheck.
36:00
Do your good work. Do what you need to do, especially
36:03
our high achievers, who I know intrinsically
36:05
you need to do that. But you just can't view
36:09
the companies anymore as someone that is going
36:11
to be loyal to you, and it is not worth your
36:13
health. It's just not worth it. And you can't
36:17
just throw aside when symptoms start to come
36:20
up from the burnout. You have to start listening
36:24
to your body and do something about it. That
36:27
is a great piece of advice to end on. Carrie,
36:30
thank you for being our work friend. I appreciate
36:32
your insight so much. If people want to connect
36:35
with you, where is the best place to do that?
36:38
Instagram is probably where I am most active,
36:41
so at Hey Work Friend, I make it easy. I'm also
36:44
on Facebook and TikTok as well. And I do also
36:47
have a new group that I just launched called
36:50
Work Decoded. It's kind of the inner circle of
36:53
HeyWorkFriend, where if you need more personalized
36:57
support, yes, it's a great way to do it. Yes,
37:01
as opposed to some of that general advice I give
37:03
if you're needing something. And HeyWorkFriend
37:05
.com, I make it easy. Love it. Thank you so much.
37:09
And yeah, it's helping people at work. That's
37:12
awesome. Thank you so much for being here. Thank
37:15
you, Betsy. It was great. Appreciate it. This
37:18
was such a good and honestly very real conversation
37:20
with Carrie. The big takeaway for me is this
37:23
boundaries are not about being difficult. They
37:26
are about being clear and clarity protects your
37:29
time, your work, your energy and honestly your
37:32
health. Carrie reminded us that you can be warm
37:35
and still say no. You can be a team player without
37:38
becoming the team's dumping ground. And you can
37:41
care about your work without sacrificing your
37:43
entire life for a company that may still make
37:46
a business decision that has nothing to do with
37:48
your effort or your loyalty. You can connect
37:52
with Carrie at HeyWorkfriend on Instagram, Facebook,
37:54
and TikTok and find more at heyworkfriend .com.
37:58
Until next time, stay loud and stay lifted.