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The Heart–Brain Connection: Exploring Rollin McCraty and HeartMath · Tracking Wisdom

• 0:03
  Peter: You're listening to the Tracking Wisdom Podcast, exploring the universal truths that we see woven through culture, consciousness, and the human experience.
• 0:18
  Ryan: Good morning, everybody, and welcome back to another episode of the Tracking Wisdom podcast.
• 0:22
  Ryan: I'm Ryan.
• 0:23
  Peter: I'm Peter.
• 0:23
  Ryan: And today we're discussing psychophysiologist, author, professor, and director of research at the HeartMath Institute, Dr.
• 0:31
  Ryan: Rollin McCraty.
• 0:32
  Ryan: McCraty is recognized for his work on heart rate variability, heart-brain communication, and physiology of emotions.
• 0:39
  Ryan: His research has been used to develop tools and technology to optimize health, performance, and quality of life, and his research interests include heart coherence, heart-brain communication, and global coherence and interconnectivity, which are all things we're gonna be talking
• 0:55
  Ryan: about today, starting with what is heart rate variability?
• 1:00
  Peter: Yeah.
• 1:00
  Peter: So, of course, we all know about, heart rate the number of the beats within a specific interval.
• 1:07
  Peter: But heart rate variability is about how those beats occur.
• 1:12
  Peter: So The first two beats might be closer together than the next two beats, and then the next ones might be longer apart.
• 1:17
  Peter: And apparently there's a healthy sinusoidal rhythm to the way this variability occurs.
• 1:25
  Peter: So you go from a time of lower variability to increasing and increasing variability until you reach a peak, and you have a little period of this highest variability, and then your variability starts to decrease at a steady rate.
• 1:40
  Peter: So the amount of variability, forms this sine wave, this smooth, regular cycle in the healthy situation.
• 1:50
  Peter: But which is often not the case.
• 1:53
  Peter: And so if you look at heart rate variability in untrained individuals, it'll be what he calls a jagged mountain peak not a regular sine wave.
• 2:02
  Peter: And so, then the work is, establishing this regular sine wave of heart rate variability is I believe what he calls coherence.
• 2:13
  Peter: And then he ties that to all kinds of measures of wellness and health.
• 2:17
  Ryan: What's interesting to me specifically is how heart rate variability, is related to or correlates to, not just mental health and wellbeing, but physical health and wellbeing.
• 2:31
  Ryan: And unintuitively, just because I think of the, the name, you think of heart rate variation, and my intuition would say that's a bad thing.
• 2:40
  Ryan: And his research is actually the converse, that a higher heart rate variability is actually correlated with better outcomes, and the lower heart rate variability can actually indicate risk, although it doesn't tell you what specific condition, you know, will
• 2:57
  Ryan: develop.
• 2:57
  Ryan: But it is, I guess, kind of a leading indicator that somebody's at risk for developing XYZ.
• 3:04
  Ryan: So that's his core measure, right, is this heart rate variability, of which his work, as you said, steps off from.
• 3:13
  Ryan: A key component to how all this works is the relationship with the heart and communication with the brain.
• 3:22
  Ryan: He talks about the "heart brain," which, could carry its own language resistance in certain settings.
• 3:31
  Ryan: But I mean, it is established that the heart has its own complex neural system, including the sinoatrial node that, drives its heartbeat.
• 3:42
  Ryan: So there is already this decoupling of the heart from the brain as opposed to-
• 3:46
  Peter: Mm-hmm
• 3:47
  Ryan: peripheral bodies like hands and feet.
• 3:49
  Ryan: There is a deep innervation of the heart, and he comments that there is more information coming away from the heart and going to the brain than the brain going to the heart.
• 4:03
  Ryan: And his interpretation of that is that if the brain was really the key arbiter and manager of everything, that, conceptually, there would be more information coming from the brain, going to the heart.
• 4:17
  Ryan: And because of this converse situation, he's suggesting that more communication coming from the heart creates this mini heart-brain kind of thing.
• 4:28
  Ryan: You're smirking.
• 4:29
  Peter: Yeah, yeah.
• 4:29
  Peter: Well, no, because you, you immediately brought up the key point that he makes that I question.
• 4:35
  Peter: But his point is simply because there's more afferent information, from the heart to the brain, than there is efferent information, from the brain to the heart, it shows that the brain has more influence-
• 4:52
  Ryan: On the brain
• 4:53
  Peter: than you, than you might think.
• 4:54
  Ryan: Right.
• 4:55
  Peter: I think if you just think about homeostasis biologically, or even if you just think about cybernetics in terms of a purely mechanical feedback mechanism, to me it seems obvious on the face of it that you need more signal
• 5:10
  Peter: coming in, from the peripheral to the central control, than you need control signals going out.
• 5:18
  Ryan: Right.
• 5:19
  Peter: Okay, let's just use the heart and the brain.
• 5:21
  Peter: If the heart just sends one bit of information to the brain, the brain doesn't have anything to make a decision about, right?
• 5:29
  Peter: Say the heart sends 10 bits of information to the brain, the brain can look for a pattern and say, "Oh, now I can make a decision.
• 5:37
  Peter: No, don't do that."
• 5:38
  Ryan: Right.
• 5:39
  Peter: And the brain sends out one bit of information.
• 5:41
  Peter: "No."
• 5:42
  Peter: It's a yes or no.
• 5:43
  Peter: It doesn't need more than that in order to just provide a response.
• 5:46
  Peter: So in that very simplistic way of looking at it, I don't understand how having more afferent information signals from the heart to the brain, really is very significant at all.
• 5:58
  Peter: At the same time, you mentioned the heart, as an organ peripheral outside of the brain, has its own innervation and its own intrinsic control systems.
• 6:10
  Peter: That has an intrinsic pacemaker and that it functions electrically within itself without the brain telling each chamber of the heart what to do.
• 6:18
  Ryan: Right.
• 6:19
  Peter: And, well, I don't know the significance.
• 6:21
  Peter: I- but on the face of it, you think that the heart developed more substantially before the brain became the big organ-
• 6:30
  Ryan: Mm-hmm
• 6:30
  Peter: that it is.
• 6:31
  Peter: Like, the heart is critical to just provide oxygenation to the rest of the organism, no matter how small.
• 6:38
  Ryan: Right.
• 6:38
  Peter: Or once the organism big enough to need a heart, it needs the heart more than the brain.
• 6:42
  Peter: And so you would think, I mean, it just makes sense that the heart is gonna have some kind of intrinsic mechanism.
• 6:49
  Ryan: Mm-hmm.
• 6:49
  Peter: And then as the organism gets bigger and more complicated that now the brain has more of a feedback role or more control role.
• 6:56
  Ryan: Mm-hmm, right.
• 6:57
  Peter: And so again, I have no comments about McCraty's work.
• 7:02
  Peter: It's more, it's more a question of the, the rhetoric.
• 7:04
  Ryan: Yeah.
• 7:05
  Ryan: Part of it, I think, goes to sort of his broader work around this coherence thing and how the impact of the heart rate variability specifically as a communication input to the brain, which on the face of it, is
• 7:22
  Ryan: sort of just rehashing what we already know about how the sympathetic and parasympathetic nervous system functions to impact, lots of things, but one of them being heart rate.
• 7:34
  Ryan: What I did find interesting about this is, while I was saying it's related to the sympathetic and parasympathetic functionality, the coherence that he's describing, it's not simply a toggle.
• 7:47
  Ryan: We're not just turning on and turning off-
• 7:49
  Peter: Right
• 7:50
  Ryan: the sympathetic and parasympathetic nervous system.
• 7:52
  Ryan: But during this coherent state, there's actually a a synchronization of those effects, in union, that is creating this different state.
• 8:03
  Peter: So yeah, and I think, you know, one of the reasons for that is that our general understanding of, the sympathetic and parasym- sympathetic systems is biased not towards wellness-
• 8:18
  Ryan: Sure.
• 8:19
  Peter: But towards understanding of disease.
• 8:20
  Ryan: Biology.
• 8:21
  Peter: Basically the way we generally think of sympathetic is that, "oh, that's dangerous and bad."
• 8:28
  Ryan: Mm.
• 8:28
  Peter: Because modern humans suffer from chronic stress.
• 8:32
  Peter: Because modern humans, in general, aren't living under moment-to-moment threat response situations, right?
• 8:43
  Peter: Which is the evolutionary-
• 8:44
  Ryan: Mm
• 8:45
  Peter: kind of background of the parasympathetic and sympathetic.
• 8:47
  Peter: Like, the tiger jumps at you, you get away from it, and then your sympathetic response goes down.
• 8:54
  Peter: And like, wild animals have this shake-off response, where they reduce their cortisol, and they just come back to baseline after they've responded to the threat, and modern humans don't do that.
• 9:06
  Peter: And so, what I'm saying is we think of, "Oh, sympathetic's bad, parasympathetic's good," and we just have to learn to turn off the sympathetic.
• 9:15
  Ryan: Right.
• 9:15
  Peter: Because that's generally what we're dealing with as modern humans being over-stressed.
• 9:22
  Ryan: Mm-hmm.
• 9:23
  Peter: Over-stressed as opposed to healthy stress.
• 9:25
  Peter: And that's the thing, is that there is such thing as healthy stress.
• 9:29
  Ryan: Yes.
• 9:29
  Peter: So, put in that context, this makes more sense.
• 9:33
  Peter: I'm not saying the research is stating the obvious.
• 9:35
  Peter: I'm just saying, take it out of popular culture understanding of what sympathetic and parasympathetic nervous system is doing.
• 9:41
  Peter: I think in the common knowledge of it, there's an overemphasis on sympathetic is bad.
• 9:47
  Peter: But zero variability is bad.
• 9:51
  Peter: You wanna have more variability than zero.
• 9:54
  Peter: None of this content talks about what is very, very high variability like.
• 10:00
  Ryan: Mm-hmm.
• 10:00
  Peter: So presumably also unhealthy.
• 10:03
  Peter: He's, like, all he's pointing to is that this high regular variability is good.
• 10:09
  Peter: The sine wave where the variability's constant.
• 10:12
  Peter: It's constant, but it's also very cyclic.
• 10:15
  Peter: So it doesn't mean that the more variability you have, the better you are.
• 10:20
  Peter: I think that's what he's pointing to.
• 10:22
  Peter: Okay.
• 10:22
  Peter: I think he's not saying that the typical untrained person has metronomic variability.
• 10:29
  Peter: He's just saying zero heart rate variability or very low heart rate variability is a sign of stress.
• 10:35
  Peter: At the same time, you know, he points to this mountain range-
• 10:40
  Ryan: Right
• 10:40
  Peter: of irregular Heart rate change, it's not invariable.
• 10:45
  Ryan: Right.
• 10:45
  Peter: It's not metronomic.
• 10:46
  Ryan: Right.
• 10:47
  Peter: Also not healthy-
• 10:49
  Ryan: Yeah
• 10:49
  Peter: because it's not cyclic.
• 10:51
  Peter: So just to, to bring in that nuance, because there are these kind of black and white statements.
• 10:57
  Ryan: Mm-hmm
• 10:58
  Peter: The sine wave means constant variability, but in a very regular cycle- Right of variability.
• 11:06
  Peter: And I guess the reason I'm talking this through is, is it is part of what confused me a little bit coming into the idea of heart rate variability.
• 11:15
  Ryan: Mm-hmm.
• 11:16
  Peter: it needs to vary, heart rate needs to vary on a regular cycle.
• 11:20
  Peter: Which is, I guess what he discovered.
• 11:24
  Peter: Did he discover the sine wave?
• 11:26
  Ryan: Well, the sine wave specifically I think is around coherence.
• 11:32
  Peter: Yes.
• 11:33
  Peter: It's this .1 hertz.
• 11:35
  Ryan: And the variability is related to it
• 11:40
  Peter: Yeah.
• 11:40
  Peter: I, I believe that the frequency of that sine wave is .1 hertz.
• 11:45
  Peter: Is .1.
• 11:46
  Ryan: average
• 11:47
  Peter: on average, right.
• 11:49
  Ryan: Right.
• 11:49
  Peter: but that's the same number that,
• 11:53
  Ryan: The geomagnetic
• 11:53
  Peter: that's the geomagnetic
• 11:55
  Ryan: Frequency
• 11:55
  Peter: That, and that, and these are the, th- this is his major kind of thought goal in terms of building a, a big, important model.
• 12:06
  Ryan: Mm-hmm.
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  Peter: But, okay, so I guess we've gotten through, like, heart rate variability-
• 12:10
  Ryan: And into what coherence is.
• 12:12
  Peter: Yeah.
• 12:13
  Ryan: And when it comes to coherence, it, leads to sort of this benefits piece, which I wanna get to in a minute, but I wanted to state right now just in the context of the sympathetic and parasympathetic is when
• 12:29
  Ryan: it comes to the benefits of what he calls heart math, which are the techniques that he's developed is like the same as the, the, the qualitative elements of parasympathetic versus sympathetic nervous system.
• 12:43
  Ryan: So I, I find it interesting- Mm.
• 12:46
  Ryan: Mm-hmm like, like the, the state of mentality and bodily function in the sympathetic, sympathetic state is this heightened, you know, fear and brain fog and- Right you know, all these kind-- tunnel vision, things like that, versus the parasympathetic
• 13:02
  Ryan: system where you're relaxed and you have better cognitive function and, and these kinds of things.
• 13:08
  Ryan: Those are l- almost one-to-one correlation to how he describes the benefits of this coherent state, where when you're in a coherent state, you have better brain function and you have, you know, lower, symptomatic disease processes and your emotional
• 13:26
  Ryan: regulation is improved and thing, you know, things like that.
• 13:28
  Ryan: So I found that kinda curious that they are very closely described and so they're, they're...
• 13:36
  Ryan: It, it kinda brings, again, that muddiness of are we talking basically about the parasympathetic and sympathetic-
• 13:41
  Peter: So-
• 13:42
  Ryan: or is this something original?
• 13:43
  Peter: Well, well, so and I, I'm not sure this is responsive to that, but it's just what comes up for me, is that we're very familiar with the distinction between a, quote, sympathetic sys- nervous system state versus a parasympathetic
• 14:00
  Peter: nervous system state.
• 14:02
  Peter: because we've studied disease so much- Mm-hmm modern disease, which is the overactivity of the sympathetic nervous system.
• 14:12
  Peter: Yeah.
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  Peter: So when you remove that disease, it looks more like parasympathetic-
• 14:17
  Ryan: Right
• 14:17
  Peter: patterning, right?
• 14:19
  Ryan: There's no such thing
• 14:19
  Peter: that it's healthy to turn off y- r- right?
• 14:22
  Peter: Yes.
• 14:22
  Peter: And it's like the metronome.
• 14:24
  Ryan: Yeah.
• 14:24
  Peter: And so what, what I'm curious about is has anyone done a study, is, is there a way to study Okay, we're very familiar with overactivation of the sympathetic nervous system.
• 14:36
  Peter: We all experience that.
• 14:37
  Peter: Mm-hmm.
• 14:37
  Peter: What is the experience of overactive parasympathetic- Hmm, hmm nervous system?
• 14:43
  Peter: I don't know.
• 14:44
  Peter: I mean, is that what, Jeffrey Martin pointed to?
• 14:46
  Ryan: Hmm.
• 14:46
  Peter: In people who have gone off the deep end- Right with fundamental being, where they've unplugged and they need to be roused out of their state in order- Yeah to be fed so that they don't die of starvation.
• 15:00
  Peter: Hmm.
• 15:00
  Peter: Is that what-
• 15:01
  Ryan: What that looks
• 15:02
  Peter: like?
• 15:02
  Peter: overactive?
• 15:03
  Peter: Yeah.
• 15:03
  Peter: You know, it's, it's not something that we're aware of or that we care about.
• 15:06
  Peter: Right.
• 15:06
  Peter: Because we're so desperate to get away from our overact- overactive sympathetic nervous system.
• 15:13
  Peter: So I, I, I do think it's really interesting that McCrady's work is pointing to the complete balance-
• 15:22
  Ryan: Yeah
• 15:22
  Peter: So to that, I would say it's not a rehash.
• 15:26
  Peter: Because he's saying, no, you don't focus on suppressing the sympathetic nervous system, which is what most wellness interventions that talk about parasympathetic versus sympathetic are pointing at.
• 15:41
  Peter: Right.
• 15:41
  Peter: Like, "Oh, you gotta control the sympathetic activation.
• 15:44
  Peter: That's it."
• 15:45
  Peter: And he's not saying, "Oh, you gotta control your sympathetic."
• 15:48
  Peter: He's saying you gotta get into coherence, where they're really finely coordinated and tuned, and you just have this very smooth interaction between sympathetic activation and parasympathetic activation, and it's just this smooth, constant handoff
• 16:02
  Ryan: It's about balance.
• 16:03
  Peter: It's about balance.
• 16:05
  Ryan: I guess just to maybe clarify on our thought here I'm thinking specifically, you know, we're talking about interventions about an improvement on chronic stress specifically, right?
• 16:18
  Ryan: which is the state that we see many people in, in modern days.
• 16:23
  Ryan: but one of those things to improve chronic stress is exercise, and exercise activates sympathetic activity.
• 16:32
  Peter: Mm-hmm.
• 16:33
  Ryan: So it is more of a, conceptual thing that we live in that we need to suppress, but there are activities that are, recommended that do in fact activate sympathetic, but it's in a controlled state, and that's the important
• 16:49
  Ryan: piece of it.
• 16:50
  Peter: So the, the, that's very interesting 'cause there's, there's a factoid that my son keeps on citing.
• 16:56
  Peter: He's like, "It's, it's really..."
• 16:58
  Peter: It's like, "It, it really bugs me that I heard that this is true," that, And that's why I'm quoting my son, so this is like- thirdhand.
• 17:06
  Peter: that we're the only animal that needs to exercise in order to i- improve muscle mass or maintain muscle mass.
• 17:15
  Ryan: Really?
• 17:16
  Peter: Yeah.
• 17:16
  Peter: Like, I said, I said, "What, so other animals, they just eat and they gain muscle?"
• 17:21
  Peter: And he's like, "Yeah, basically.
• 17:22
  Peter: Or they'll maintain."
• 17:23
  Ryan: Interesting.
• 17:24
  Peter: Which probably has to do with j- just the crazy imbalance of the s- Yeah sympathetic and parasympathetic.
• 17:33
  Peter: So even though we're chronically stressed, we're not doing what exercise does.
• 17:40
  Peter: We're not activating the sympathetic system in the way- Mm-hmm that ac- exercise activates it.
• 17:47
  Peter: So this is not just about, oh, we need to be in sympathetic state, and that's why we need to exercise.
• 17:52
  Peter: It's that exercising happens to activate the sympathetic nervous system.
• 17:57
  Ryan: Yeah.
• 17:58
  Ryan: And actually, I wanna question my thought a little bit around that, and since I was doing some work with nutrition and- Mm and exercise and, recovery, there is Thinking specifically about weight loss, right?
• 18:12
  Ryan: Many people exercise and exercise and exercise and fail to lose adequate weight, and they get frustrated.
• 18:21
  Ryan: And some of that has to do with exercising to the point that the sympathetic nervous system is taking over and your body's in so much stress over the exercise that it isn't doing the things that it would do.
• 18:37
  Ryan: It, it shutting down your digestive system- Mm-hmm, mm-hmm and it's doing all these different things that are self-protective- Mm-hmm because it s- it, interprets this to be a dangerous state to which we need to, reserve resources.
• 18:52
  Peter: Mm-hmm,
• 18:53
  Ryan: mm-hmm.
• 18:53
  Ryan: Versus just going for walks, right?
• 18:56
  Ryan: Like, feeling like just going for a walk is not enough exercise to achieve that goal, and yet it is that low intensity exercise done consistently, done regularly that is allowing your body to live less in stress.
• 19:14
  Peter: Mm-hmm.
• 19:15
  Ryan: Now, you do need to push your body in order to gain muscle mass and to, to grow.
• 19:20
  Ryan: Mm-hmm.
• 19:20
  Ryan: There's stress that is necessary in order to do that, but there is this balance of stress where-
• 19:26
  Peter: Exactly
• 19:26
  Ryan: putting your body in, air quotes, "good stress" 'cause I'm exercising, but you're exercising to a point where your heart rate is too elevated- Mm-hmm and it puts your body in this, state of needing to repair and, and resource
• 19:44
  Ryan: maintain that is causing you to not achieve your goals.
• 19:48
  Peter: Yeah, I mean, as I started to work out and work with a trainer, one of my big lessons which I'm finally getting to- is understanding just within a workout-
• 19:59
  Ryan: Yep
• 19:59
  Peter: how much to rest, 'cause I always wanted to go from set to set.
• 20:02
  Ryan: Right.
• 20:02
  Peter: And it's like, no, two minutes of rest enables me to add much more volume to my workout-
• 20:10
  Ryan: Yep
• 20:10
  Peter: and accomplish gains Yeah.
• 20:13
  Peter: Whereas if I just kept on like, 10 seconds rest, keep on going, I, I didn't see as good progress.
• 20:19
  Peter: and so I think, we're riffing off of coherence here basically
• 20:22
  Ryan: Right
• 20:23
  Peter: It's not push, push, push, push, push.
• 20:25
  Peter: Right.
• 20:25
  Peter: It's stress your system and then let it return to baseline, healthy baseline.
• 20:32
  Peter: Yep.
• 20:33
  Peter: But of course, most of us can't return to a healthy baseline, right?
• 20:36
  Peter: We're stressing, we're taking our stress system, we're stressing it more, and then we're just relaxing back to regular stress.
• 20:42
  Peter: Yeah.
• 20:43
  Peter: and so this idea of coherence as being so important, meaning a cyclic pattern- Right of, of change in state, right?
• 20:53
  Peter: It's not...
• 20:53
  Peter: Th- that's, that's where he's pointing to and it's, Yeah, I'm, I'm kind of thinking from my context and, and the stuff that I look at, like it's not about being in permanent bliss.
• 21:05
  Ryan: Mm-hmm.
• 21:06
  Peter: Right?
• 21:07
  Peter: That's not what's healthy.
• 21:08
  Ryan: Mm-hmm.
• 21:09
  Peter: We're talking about optimum health as human, as physically incarnated humans looks much more like this cyclic coherence than a single state.
• 21:22
  Peter: So rest and recovery is critical to physical development.
• 21:25
  Ryan: Right.
• 21:26
  Peter: and at the same time, consistency-
• 21:28
  Ryan: Yes
• 21:29
  Peter: is important.
• 21:29
  Peter: Yes.
• 21:30
  Peter: So it's this blend- of consistency and rest.
• 21:34
  Peter: so okay.
• 21:35
  Peter: I mean, now I'm looking at this idea of coherence in a broader context and saying, "Ah, this is really cool."
• 21:41
  Peter: But that's not what McCrady's talking about.
• 21:44
  Ryan: No.
• 21:45
  Ryan: Um, So the next thing that he kinda talks about, which is the connection between emotions and heart rate variability patterns.
• 21:56
  Ryan: his research demonstrates and he posits that emotional states, in his term, leave fingerprints on the waveform pattern of the heart rate variability.
• 22:06
  Ryan: And one of the core breakthroughs of his work is that, their hearts aren't just reacting to stress by like beating faster or slower, but it, it is these patterns that are identifiable, and he notes he used, AI neural
• 22:21
  Ryan: networks to evaluate, a, a data set of various, waveforms essentially.
• 22:28
  Ryan: And the system was able to identify, with 75% accuracy the emotional state that was being exhibited by that person just based on this heart rate variability pattern.
• 22:41
  Ryan: So he suggests that th- that there's at least strong evidence that the emotional state of a person is highly correlated to this patterning effect, and that heart rate variability is a component, but it's not the only component.
• 22:57
  Peter: Right.
• 22:58
  Peter: Okay, so this is emotional fingerprints- Mm-hmm of, incoherence versus coherent- Correct states, and that the incoherent looks like frustration, anger, and anxiety, and the coherent looks like appreciation, compassion, and love.
• 23:15
  Ryan: Yeah.
• 23:15
  Ryan: I think maybe it's almost converse where we think of sympathetic activation as creating fear, and in this, this component looks like it's almost the converse, where fear generates the sympathetic response, which I guess makes sense, right?
• 23:33
  Peter: Yeah
• 23:34
  Ryan: your- That
• 23:34
  Peter: makes sense,
• 23:34
  Ryan: identifying something as a threat, which is creating fear, which then activates.
• 23:41
  Ryan: It- So that makes sense
• 23:42
  Peter: bit of a chicken and egg thing- Yes, yes though, because we, we associate so strongly those-
• 23:49
  Ryan: Right
• 23:49
  Peter: what?
• 23:50
  Peter: States and experiences.
• 23:51
  Ryan: Yep.
• 23:52
  Peter: And then once you, once you are I don't know what to call it.
• 23:57
  Peter: I, hi- I'm thinking about people who are deep in fundamental wellbeing.
• 24:02
  Peter: Actually, yeah, I've, 'cause I've had these conversations.
• 24:05
  Peter: I mean, I, I, I don't wanna put it only in context of that.
• 24:07
  Peter: Yeah.
• 24:08
  Peter: I think it's also true of, of other advanced meditators.
• 24:12
  Ryan: Mm-hmm.
• 24:13
  Peter: You decouple the state from the experience.
• 24:15
  Ryan: Yeah.
• 24:15
  Peter: So I had a conversation, or I was with someone once who was saying, "Yeah, I can tell that I am very anxious right now because of my physiological state."
• 24:25
  Peter: And he wasn't...
• 24:26
  Peter: He's like, "I don't feel anxious."
• 24:27
  Ryan: Yep.
• 24:28
  Peter: Like, and he wasn't saying, "I'm anxious."
• 24:30
  Peter: He's like, "I can tell that I'm having an anxiety response."
• 24:34
  Peter: There's a biological response.
• 24:34
  Peter: Right.
• 24:35
  Peter: Yeah.
• 24:35
  Peter: 'Cause he was observing his physio- physiological state.
• 24:37
  Peter: Yeah.
• 24:38
  Peter: But he wasn't experiencing anxiety.
• 24:40
  Ryan: Right.
• 24:41
  Peter: You know?
• 24:42
  Ryan: that's an interesting point, and I wanna kind of maybe pick it up a little bit in a minute when we talk about HeartMath, which is his techniques.
• 24:49
  Ryan: Mm-hmm.
• 24:50
  Ryan: But I was just thinking on the emotional piece of it as causal, is a key component of HeartMath as technique is cultivating an emotional- Right a positive emotional- Right state, which then leads to helping to get somebody in
• 25:06
  Ryan: a better coherence.
• 25:08
  Ryan: So it does appear in that circumstance, at least there's some sort of positive correlation with the generation, the, the precursor being the emotional state, then the emotional state being a, symptom of coherence.
• 25:24
  Peter: Right, or incoherence.
• 25:25
  Ryan: Or incoherence.
• 25:26
  Ryan: Right.
• 25:26
  Ryan: Yes.
• 25:26
  Ryan: Exactly.
• 25:27
  Ryan: Yes, yes.
• 25:27
  Ryan: Um, before we move on to, the techniques and the benefits, there was something that came to mind here when we were talking about incoherence as frustration, anger, and anxiety, and coherence as appreciation, love, and, compassion, was our previous
• 25:44
  Ryan: discussions around fear and love, and it's almost like, so fear being number one, the opposite of love, and that the manifestations of fear come as, like, anger and frustration.
• 25:59
  Ryan: Uh, you know, there's- Mm-hmm there's s- subcategories- Mm-hmm but that they all kind of roll up into this overarching sort of parent, state of fear- Mm-hmm versus love.
• 26:09
  Ryan: and so when I saw these and we're talking about coherence and incoherence and, and the emotional states that are correlated with it, it, it, it was almost like this is kind of the physiological manifestations of that concept of
• 26:22
  Ryan: just fear and love being, um, relative and, equal and opposite in a way.
• 26:28
  Peter: no, I agree
• 26:29
  Ryan: I mean, I guess we've kinda talked about the benefits.
• 26:30
  Ryan: The benefits are, are fairly straightforward here, that the coherent state has demonstrated, a better emotional regulation and cognitive functions, which seems to be a, a, a key focus of his work, which is to help people to improve emotional
• 26:48
  Ryan: regulation and cognitive function, both within, within the individual, but also I think it sounds like he works with, like, businesses and organizations- Mm-hmm for sort of a more, collective coherence and, and improvement in, function, like interpersonal function.
• 27:05
  Ryan: but it, it seemed like there were really kinda three domains of affect to this coherence, which was the emotional reg- the emotional piece.
• 27:15
  Ryan: There's the cognitive piece, and there's, there is physical improvement, meaning symptom improvement- Mm-hmm for things like hypertension.
• 27:23
  Ryan: There was reduced hypertension and, and things like that.
• 27:26
  Ryan: So there is, like, a physiological, physical benefit to this work, this practice really.
• 27:34
  Ryan: Mm-hmm.
• 27:34
  Ryan: there's a cognitive improvement which, again, kinda correlates to what we understand with the sympathetic versus parasympathetic, because you reduce the stress, you reduce the brain fog, and you are then, your body is, is better capable to support more
• 27:50
  Ryan: frontal cortex activity.
• 27:52
  Ryan: And then there's the emotional aspect of it, which I think is actually probably something that people by and large probably seek this out for more, is how do I feel less stressed and suffering and all of that?
• 28:05
  Peter: and so going back to a point that you made earlier, this all reflects the kind of results we see from research in mindfulness meditation.
• 28:17
  Ryan: Right,
• 28:17
  Peter: and I guess, again, the, the bias is in our modern culture-
• 28:23
  Ryan: Mm
• 28:24
  Peter: where the focus has been on physical fitness.
• 28:28
  Peter: Right.
• 28:29
  Peter: where Mindful or, emotional, cognitive-oriented practices are latecomers
• 28:37
  Ryan: Yeah
• 28:38
  Peter: Right?
• 28:39
  Peter: in our culture
• 28:40
  Ryan: Yeah
• 28:40
  Peter: Right?
• 28:40
  Peter: It's like, okay, we've been living focused on physical fitness for a longer time than, you know, when mindfulness came up With, with the other industry kind of keeping pace and-
• 28:53
  Ryan: Sure.
• 28:54
  Peter: Yeah expanding.
• 28:55
  Ryan: I think it has to do with the more mechanistic understanding of biology and, like, oh, if we-
• 29:01
  Peter: Totally
• 29:02
  Ryan: agree if we, if we work the heart better, then we'll be healthier, and we didn't understand the mental- Absolutely.
• 29:07
  Ryan: Absolutely cognitive and emotional aspect that is, is critical to all of that.
• 29:12
  Peter: I think this is what we keep on coming back to-
• 29:15
  Ryan: Yeah
• 29:15
  Peter: as a, a through thread.
• 29:18
  Peter: which is the materialist paradigm.
• 29:20
  Ryan: Yes.
• 29:21
  Peter: And,
• 29:21
  Ryan: kind of- And life is just being a me- a machine.
• 29:23
  Peter: which isn't to say I, I, you know, I don't want to say, "And this is why the materialist paradigm is bad."
• 29:29
  Ryan: Right.
• 29:29
  Peter: But it's, it's- Mm-hmm where we're hitting the limits of it.
• 29:33
  Peter: Yeah.
• 29:33
  Peter: And where we've optimized, we've gone past the point where we can optimize and it starts to degrade, and we- Right find diminishing returns.
• 29:41
  Ryan: And there is a mechanistic f- foundation, right?
• 29:44
  Ryan: Like, you can't just be emotionally well and not do any exercise.
• 29:48
  Peter: Right.
• 29:49
  Ryan: Right?
• 29:49
  Peter: Right.
• 29:50
  Ryan: Right.
• 29:50
  Ryan: So there, there is It's not one or the other.
• 29:52
  Peter: Exactly, which goes back to So, and I think I can acknowledge McCraty for, like, focusing on coherence.
• 29:59
  Peter: Yeah.
• 29:59
  Peter: Focusing on the idea of the cycle and, and the balance.
• 30:03
  Peter: And, I mean, he's not generalizing it the way I am.
• 30:07
  Ryan: Yeah.
• 30:07
  Peter: But I mean, I, I, I think it is interesting, and I think, by looking at what he's done, it kind of helps me see things this way.
• 30:16
  Ryan: Yeah.
• 30:17
  Ryan: Yeah.
• 30:17
  Ryan: And I mean, I guess it le- it leads into, HeartMath, which I didn't understand the term when you first mentioned to me.
• 30:24
  Ryan: I'm like, "What is HeartMath?"
• 30:25
  Peter: Yeah.
• 30:26
  Ryan: But-
• 30:26
  Peter: It's a weird term.
• 30:27
  Ryan: But he So McCraty is the, director of research at the HeartMath Institute.
• 30:33
  Ryan: and the HeartMath is his techniques and training and technology that is used to teach and help people Get into coherence, but also a big piece of it with the technology specifically is visualizing your current state of heart rate
• 30:51
  Ryan: variability and coherence so that as you're using these techniques, you can see is it working or not.
• 30:59
  Peter: and because he's I mean, basically he's learned this stuff by looking at graphic outputs.
• 31:06
  Peter: Yep.
• 31:07
  Ryan: Yep.
• 31:07
  Peter: And that's, why he developed the cycle is because he saw a cycle.
• 31:11
  Peter: Yep.
• 31:11
  Peter: he didn't conceptualize it.
• 31:13
  Peter: the- Right that's something that genuinely came out of his research.
• 31:15
  Peter: He's like, "Oh, look, it's a cycle."
• 31:17
  Peter: and so He's all about biofeedback.
• 31:19
  Peter: using the graphic representation to get you on track in what you're doing.
• 31:23
  Ryan: Right.
• 31:24
  Ryan: Um, the thing that I found I guess resonated with me a little bit is this, importance of observability during training.
• 31:31
  Ryan: a lot of practices that might be akin to this, consider meditation, is going to depend on just my own intuition of- I, I- of, of affect.
• 31:41
  Ryan: Like-
• 31:42
  Peter: Yes
• 31:42
  Ryan: yeah, oh, I
• 31:42
  Peter: feel better.
• 31:43
  Peter: I was gonna say the same thing 'cause you had mentioned earlier, oh, is this a rehash of-
• 31:47
  Ryan: Right
• 31:47
  Peter: like meditation practices?
• 31:49
  Peter: And it's like, no, here's the big difference.
• 31:51
  Ryan: Right.
• 31:51
  Peter: and I guess the only comment I would add is that traditionally you would get feedback from a teacher.
• 31:58
  Ryan: Mm-hmm.
• 31:58
  Peter: Right?
• 31:59
  Peter: 'Cause people didn't used to just meditate by themselves.
• 32:02
  Peter: But
• 32:02
  Ryan: now- But that's still secondary, right?
• 32:03
  Ryan: that's not direct measurement- It's- of your state.
• 32:06
  Peter: No, I'm saying is that when the practices were developed and widely- Sure.
• 32:09
  Peter: Okay, yeah used and the culture from which we get them- right?
• 32:13
  Peter: It wasn't just people looking at a book and practicing- Right meditation.
• 32:16
  Peter: Right.
• 32:16
  Peter: They would, they learned the meditation from a teacher.
• 32:19
  Peter: Yeah.
• 32:20
  Peter: And then the teacher would give them feed- Like, they would ask, "Hey, what's going on?"
• 32:24
  Peter: Yeah.
• 32:24
  Peter: And the teacher would be able to give feedback.
• 32:26
  Peter: So this is kind of different from the Western experience of meditating from a book.
• 32:33
  Ryan: Mm-hmm,
• 32:34
  Peter: Right?
• 32:35
  Peter: and a return to some kind of feedback, but a mechanistic feedback.
• 32:40
  Peter: Right.
• 32:40
  Peter: Not a feedback in relationship.
• 32:42
  Peter: So that's a really important distinction- Right to say, oh, okay, this is teaching how to do something in relationship to a graph.
• 32:50
  Ryan: Right.
• 32:50
  Peter: And not in relationship to a teacher who has human experience.
• 32:54
  Ryan: Yep.
• 32:54
  Peter: I think this points to a potential dead end in, in, like, building all this into apps.
• 33:03
  Ryan: Mm-hmm.
• 33:04
  Peter: And having it all run by AI, and guided-
• 33:07
  Ryan: Yep
• 33:08
  Peter: right, by algorithms.
• 33:10
  Ryan: Yeah.
• 33:10
  Peter: And so I think the, the limit that you hit is the absence If you do it in absence of relationship, it will be more limited than if you did it.
• 33:22
  Peter: So I'm not saying it's bad to do.
• 33:23
  Peter: Mm-hmm.
• 33:24
  Peter: I'm not saying, you know.
• 33:25
  Peter: But compared to doing, using the same tools in relationship with some guide or community or teacher or peers-
• 33:34
  Ryan: Mm-hmm
• 33:35
  Peter: even, I would postulate that that has a lot more value.
• 33:39
  Ryan: Mm-hmm.
• 33:40
  Ryan: the key elements and concepts of this HeartMath is, number one, we talked about the baseline, the individual's, baseline frequency, which, as a starting point is the 0.1 hertz baseline.
• 33:53
  Ryan: But individually, one's optimal frequency can range from zero, 0.03 to .24 hertz, which translates to about four to seven breaths per minute.
• 34:07
  Ryan: Mm-hmm.
• 34:07
  Ryan: So there's this breathing component, which is part of the techniques, and trying to find, which his technology helps as well, to locate what your individual optimal frequency is.
• 34:23
  Ryan: Yeah.
• 34:23
  Peter: And, I experimented very briefly with, oh, what is a, a .1 hertz- Mm-hmm breathing cycle like?
• 34:28
  Peter: Yeah.
• 34:29
  Peter: And I tried it.
• 34:29
  Peter: I'm like, "Well, that's a little fast."
• 34:31
  Ryan: Oh, it was fast?
• 34:31
  Peter: Yeah, for me, compared to a meditative-
• 34:34
  Ryan: Oh, okay.
• 34:35
  Peter: like, if I've been meditating for more than 15 minutes, what's my breath like?
• 34:39
  Ryan: Sure.
• 34:39
  Peter: It's probably considerably slower than that.
• 34:42
  Ryan: Yeah.
• 34:42
  Peter: and so I'm wondering- Whether I'm just wondering how that relates.
• 34:46
  Ryan: Yeah.
• 34:47
  Peter: I am curious.
• 34:48
  Peter: Like, I'm tempted to like, like, let me buy one of these things- Mm and, and do some measurements.
• 34:53
  Peter: Yeah.
• 34:53
  Peter: so yeah.
• 34:54
  Peter: I, I just thought it was interesting.
• 34:56
  Peter: It's like, oh, that feels kind of fast-
• 34:57
  Ryan: Yeah
• 34:58
  Peter: to me.
• 34:58
  Ryan: But isn't unusual necessarily.
• 35:00
  Peter: I just wanna comment on the comment that I just made.
• 35:03
  Ryan: Okay.
• 35:03
  Peter: Because I think it's much better to engage into this than to- Do
• 35:09
  Ryan: nothing?
• 35:10
  Peter: To do, do nothing.
• 35:11
  Peter: Just accept your status quo.
• 35:12
  Peter: Yeah.
• 35:12
  Peter: The, the comparison I was making about working with teacher or community or whatever, you know what?
• 35:17
  Peter: If this is the, if this is the low threshold for you to get started on a path-
• 35:22
  Ryan: Yep
• 35:22
  Peter: take it.
• 35:23
  Ryan: Absolutely.
• 35:23
  Peter: Like
• 35:24
  Ryan: Absolutely.
• 35:25
  Peter: I agree.
• 35:25
  Ryan: I agree.
• 35:26
  Peter: It's like you're not gonna do a lot of harm here.
• 35:28
  Ryan: No, and I, I...
• 35:29
  Ryan: Well, I mean, I took the courses for a reason, so I'm gonna bring in my wisdom from my coaching stuff, which is- there is an optimal behavior, but if you start there, going all in is almost assuredly going
• 35:44
  Ryan: to get you to be in a very short-term practice that is going to just fall off, and you're gonna be back into regular stuff.
• 35:50
  Ryan: So the habit, the progress, taking small steps is the thing that gets strong progress and, and consistent progress, and it just takes time.
• 36:02
  Ryan: And so to that point, it's like take the minimal step.
• 36:04
  Ryan: Take, find that, that small thing you can do consistently every day or, or whatever the, the tempo is, and you work on it, and you start to build a habit with that, and then you do another thing, and
• 36:18
  Ryan: then you do another thing.
• 36:19
  Peter: and the other thing is don't worry about the method or direction.
• 36:23
  Ryan: Yeah.
• 36:23
  Peter: like, "Oh, well, should I do exercising or should I do meditation?"
• 36:26
  Ryan: Mm-hmm.
• 36:27
  Peter: Because what I'm finding is how much more I'm getting out of my physical training Because of my meditation.
• 36:37
  Ryan: Right.
• 36:37
  Peter: my experience has been that bringing mindfulness to my physical training has made it a really fun learning experience- Mm-hmm as opposed to a grind.
• 36:48
  Peter: Because I'm just observing, like, what's happening.
• 36:51
  Peter: And it makes it much easier to respond to feedback from my body, and to respond to feedback from my coach who says like, "Oh, you're really good at correcting," like I say, "Oh, this is what you're doing," and
• 37:05
  Peter: I'm like, "I'm focused on that now," you know?
• 37:08
  Peter: Yeah.
• 37:08
  Peter: And then I, I, I'm able to immediately correct.
• 37:11
  Peter: And I'm not saying that you should do mindfulness before your physical training.
• 37:16
  Peter: Mm-hmm.
• 37:16
  Peter: Like, if physical training's more ex- attractive to you, then start there and be ready, know that you can apply that to your mindfulness practice.
• 37:27
  Peter: Right.
• 37:27
  Peter: Like, just have that kind of open intention of, "Wherever I'm gonna start, I'm gonna apply it to where I go," because you will.
• 37:36
  Peter: Yeah.
• 37:36
  Peter: And, that just, so much better than, W- which is the best way to start?"
• 37:41
  Peter: Right.
• 37:41
  Peter: "And how do I do it the right way?"
• 37:43
  Peter: And it's like, no, just start somewhere and do it some way.
• 37:47
  Ryan: Yep.
• 37:48
  Peter: And then work to improve it from there.
• 37:49
  Peter: Right.
• 37:50
  Peter: And, and, and, yeah, don't, don't take it too seriously except for try to be consistent.
• 37:55
  Peter: Try to improve consistency over time.
• 37:57
  Peter: Yeah.
• 37:58
  Peter: Don't try to start perfect in any way.
• 37:59
  Ryan: Right.
• 38:00
  Ryan: Consistency starts with an attainable- Right tempo.
• 38:03
  Peter: Right.
• 38:04
  Ryan: If it's once a month, it's something.
• 38:06
  Ryan: Exactly.
• 38:07
  Ryan: Right.
• 38:07
  Ryan: Right?
• 38:07
  Ryan: And every little bit that can be done consistently, I mean, a journey of a thousand miles starts with a step.
• 38:12
  Ryan: So, so
• 38:12
  Peter: that's our, that's our mutual cheerleading- for, you know, for the listener, who maybe hasn't started yet or, you know, feeling discouraged about the way you've started something.
• 38:23
  Peter: Like, hey, just Keep it up.
• 38:25
  Ryan: Yeah, not fall into the trap of paralysis by analysis kind of thing.
• 38:30
  Ryan: Yeah, yeah.
• 38:30
  Ryan: And worrying about what the right thing is.
• 38:33
  Ryan: Yeah.
• 38:33
  Ryan: Because the right thing is to just try and do something that- Mm-hmm is different and in the direction that you're looking to go from now.
• 38:42
  Peter: No wasted experience.
• 38:43
  Ryan: That's right.
• 38:44
  Ryan: That's right.
• 38:44
  Ryan: Um, so one of the questions that kind of comes up or, or points that comes up with his HeartMath as technique and everything is, does this repeated regulation training retrain your nervous system?
• 38:59
  Ryan: so does, over time, as you're practicing, things become easier?
• 39:04
  Ryan: and it kind of brings to mind to me, when I was going through this stuff, is the relationship of HeartMath as a practice and the qualitative results.
• 39:19
  Ryan: How are they What's the relationship of them to awakening and, fundamental wellbeing, persistent non-symbolic experience?
• 39:29
  Ryan: Because the result sounds very much like the experience of these, you know, present- Finders mindful fundamental wellbeing- Mm-hmm, mm-hmm experience, and I wonder, you know, is this sort of touching on physiology towards awakening?
• 39:45
  Ryan: But I'm also curious W- to your point before, like, I'm kinda curious to n- to, to have the biofeedback and, like, when I'm deep-
• 39:55
  Peter: Hmm
• 39:56
  Ryan: in, in this experience, am I in coherence?
• 39:59
  Ryan: It, it, it kinda raises that question.
• 40:02
  Ryan: I don't know 'cause I don't use biofeedback, but it might be an interesting thing to know.
• 40:08
  Ryan: I guess at the end of the day, it's the outcome and res- results that we're looking for more than anything.
• 40:13
  Ryan: But, So this heart math and everything and, and heart rate variability and coherence and all the stuff we've covered up till now is really focused on individual emotional regulation and everything.
• 40:26
  Ryan: And his work really starts to expand off of this, and some of this is where some contention comes in because he discusses, observations of the impact of a coherent individual on, say, a room full of people, and that
• 40:44
  Ryan: the coherence starts to become in tune across the individuals in the room, and he makes sort of a judgment that there is a causality by the person who is coherent basically causing a ripple effect of coherence amongst those
• 41:01
  Ryan: that are proximal to them.
• 41:03
  Peter: and he builds it off of an initial kind of casual experiments with his son- Right and his son's dog.
• 41:08
  Ryan: Yeah.
• 41:09
  Ryan: Yeah, well, and you mentioned, we hadn't said specifically, but he takes it from this small group setting coherence to the global coherence and, the, speculation about the Schumann bands and the 0.1 hertz, the correlation with the geomagnetic frequency
• 41:32
  Ryan: with this general optimal frequency for the, coherence, and that there's something connected there.
• 41:41
  Ryan: He, he starts to speculate more about this global interconnectedness, and actually has Global Coherence Initiative, which is another link we'll, we'll leave in if you're interested in looking into that.
• 41:51
  Ryan: But this is, this is a core piece of his work, right?
• 41:54
  Peter: it's something that he says very early on when he meets someone, The heart is an electrical operating system, and like any electrical system, it generates a magnetic field.
• 42:04
  Peter: That magnetic field expands beyond the-
• 42:06
  Ryan: The body
• 42:06
  Peter: bounds of the human body by, le- like, around three feet, and I can measure it.
• 42:12
  Peter: And- fact, all fact
• 42:13
  Ryan: Yeah, right.
• 42:14
  Peter: Right?
• 42:15
  Peter: And it can influence other people.
• 42:16
  Peter: And then he just transitions into that.
• 42:19
  Ryan: Right.
• 42:19
  Peter: And then he directly attributes that to, that's because- Right the heart has this magnetic field.
• 42:25
  Peter: That's the rhetoric.
• 42:26
  Ryan: Sure, and I think that's
• 42:27
  Peter: fair.
• 42:28
  Peter: That is like, eh.
• 42:29
  Ryan: Mm-hmm.
• 42:30
  Peter: Now, do I believe that we have fields that expand beyond ourselves, and that you and I are experiencing each other in a field right now, and that, that field is interacting with me from like...
• 42:41
  Peter: Yes.
• 42:42
  Ryan: Mm-hmm.
• 42:42
  Peter: But- I'm not saying that scientifically.
• 42:44
  Peter: I'm saying that experientially.
• 42:46
  Peter: that's where, that's where it gets, like, totally falls apart for me.
• 42:49
  Ryan: Yeah.
• 42:49
  Peter: I'm just saying it rubs me the wrong way-
• 42:51
  Ryan: Sure
• 42:52
  Peter: as rhetoric.
• 42:53
  Ryan: Yep.
• 42:53
  Peter: But, but I mean, the speculative stuff of, like you said, interpersonal influence and global influence and global interactions is very interesting- Yeah although speculative.
• 43:04
  Ryan: Yes.
• 43:05
  Peter: Yeah.
• 43:05
  Ryan: I figured we could touch on it more in the refutation episode.
• 43:11
  Peter: Okay.
• 43:12
  Peter: Cool.
• 43:12
  Ryan: I think the individual benefits from, from these practices.
• 43:18
  Ryan: Whether they're highly correlated or repackaged physiology that we already kinda know through, through, observations of meditation and the autonomic nervous system and all that.
• 43:30
  Ryan: Regardless of the branding around it, there's meaningful and measurable impact on individual wellbeing-
• 43:41
  Peter: Mm-hmm
• 43:41
  Ryan: by engaging with this work.
• 43:43
  Peter: Mm-hmm.
• 43:44
  Ryan: If this is the thing that, that gets you to take steps and to implement something regular, to bring yourself peace and wellbeing and emotional stability and, and love and compassion and all those beautiful things that can come out
• 44:02
  Ryan: of this, then I think this is definitely the implications of this are well worth it.
• 44:07
  Ryan: And again, I think to your point, I don't think you're gonna hurt anything.
• 44:11
  Ryan: Mm-hmm.
• 44:11
  Ryan: Mm-hmm.
• 44:11
  Ryan: You know?
• 44:12
  Ryan: Like, doing good breathing techniques and cultivating positive emotional states and stuff, that's I don't, I think you can't really go wrong with that.
• 44:21
  Peter: Mm-hmm.
• 44:22
  Ryan: we are going to present a counterpoint episode to this, similar to the way we did with Radin.
• 44:29
  Ryan: So, I think that's all I have to say.
• 44:31
  Ryan: Anything else?
• 44:32
  Peter: No, that's a great pl- place to wrap up.
• 44:34
  Ryan: All right.
• 44:34
  Ryan: Well, thank you all for joining us for this episode.
• 44:37
  Ryan: I hope you enjoyed the discussion, and we'd love to hear what you have to say as well.
• 44:42
  Ryan: there will be a plethora of links, in this episode.
• 44:46
  Ryan: There's research and, business links and whatnot.
• 44:50
  Ryan: So, feel free to look into those at your discretion, and I guess we'll see you guys on the next one.
• 44:57
  Ryan: Talk to you later.
• 44:57
  Peter: See you next time.
• 44:58
  Ryan: Bye.
• 44:58
  Peter: Bye.
• 45:01
  Peter: Thank you for listening to the Tracking Wisdom podcast.
• 45:04
  Peter: Join us next time as we continue the discussion.
• 45:07
  Peter: Don't forget to follow us on Facebook, Instagram, and YouTube, and visit www.eth-studio.com for more information and content