Latest / The Brewery Underground Podcast | Craft Beer Interviews, Reviews and Beer Travel / White Labs Yeast & Fermentation with Pablo Gomez | Brewing Science Explained | Episode 134

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White Labs Yeast & Fermentation with Pablo Gomez | Brewing Science Explained | Episode 134 · The Brewery Underground Podcast | Craft Beer Interviews, Reviews and Beer Travel

• 0:04
  Stand by for the brewery underground podcast in
• 0:14
  nashville's whoever wise craft and brews will need the skies
• 0:20
  Steven Scott they lead the way brewery underground night and.
• 0:25
  Day. Hey, so imagine what we're doing
• 0:38
  here today on the Brewery Underground podcast.
• 0:40
  We're actually talking about beer and we're talking about
• 0:43
  breweries. And Scott, here's a teaser for
• 0:47
  everybody out there. On the next podcast episode,
• 0:51
  you're actually going to be talking about your trip to
• 0:55
  Asheville, NC, a lot of places that you went with folks that
• 1:00
  you met up in the beer community.
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  But today this is a precursor to also a personal tour you got
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  when you were in a Nashville. So take it away my friend.
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  OK, before I introduce our guests though, I got a little
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  preamble. I got a little babbling to do.
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  Babble away, Babble away. Well, I was actually, and this
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  just came up late this afternoon.
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  I was kind of doing some some research and stuff and kind of
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  finalizing this episode and I was scrolling through our
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  projects on Riverside and every project is an episode and every
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  episode has a thumbnail next to it.
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  And I was just scrolling through and I just got to like take in
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  all the people we've talked to from all the various places all
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  over. And I thought, man, we are
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  extremely lucky to have that many people on from all facets
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  of the beer community from all parts of the country.
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  And I thought, I just kept going through the catalog and I go, my
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  God, we're building something here.
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  We've got we've got a pretty good catalog.
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  We continue to build on the catalog and in my opinion,
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  we're, we're doing pretty good stuff.
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  And I just seeing all those faces when I was scrolling
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  through Riverside today, I, it may be a little bit proud.
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  A tremendous smorgasbord. It is.
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  We get a lot of stuff. Yeah, across of what we do and
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  the folks that we've interviewed and the folks we've talked to.
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  So it's it's been a fun ride and it continues to be.
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  One of the things we try to do on here is we try to educate and
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  inform, don't we? Yes, we do.
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  Well, it's usually that guess is usually doing that, but we try.
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  We try to. Well, I was thinking about that.
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  I was thinking about that because I feel like every
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  episode I learned something, and I think in this episode I'm
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  going to learn a lot. We, we are.
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  We both are. So we talk about all craft beer
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  perspectives and kind of what goes into it.
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  We've talked to a malt house. We're working on a on a hops
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  company. I don't know what we're going to
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  do about water, but maybe we'll figure that one out later.
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  But today, today, we've got yeast.
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  We're going to talk about yeast. And we've got Pablo Gomez from
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  White Labs out of Asheville, NC with us.
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  And I'm very, very excited about this episode.
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  Pablo, welcome. Hi, Scott.
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  Hi, Steve. Thanks for inviting me.
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  Thanks for being on. Pablo.
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  You are the Southeast and Latin American technical account
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  manager for White Labs. Is that right?
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  Yeah. That's that's my title.
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  What? What does that title entail?
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  Well, you know, terrible job visiting breweries, drinking
• 3:31
  their beer. No, Yeah.
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  It's like it's based on sales, but in a on a technical way.
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  You know, at Wild Labs, we believe that just selling.
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  Let's be honest, who likes salespeople?
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  So the office, they bother you? Yeah, yeah.
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  Knock on your door. Plenty of emails.
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  So way we, we, we try to approach customers or non
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  customers. It's, it's by being a, a tool.
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  Help them with anything, questions, technical questions
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  or anything, and we can help them making better beer, you
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  know, having better fermentations, you know, use
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  management, whatever it is. So yeah, that those are my
• 4:22
  territories. But also I'm, you know, I'm kind
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  of like, I'm the person who actually gets all this, you
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  know, cases, if there's anything people haven't questioned that
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  has no territory, you know, I, I deal with people from anywhere
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  in the world, like trying to help them in a technical way.
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  I got to meet you. As Steve said, I was there
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  recently. One of our first stops was White
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  Labs. You were kind enough to to meet
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  the group and give us a private tour of the place.
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  Phenomenal. We got Steve was like just our
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  little group. He took us around as like a
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  private tour of the the facility and it was awesome.
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  Paul, will you talk about the campus a little bit because
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  you've got not only do you have the yeast facility on campus,
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  you've got the brewery and you've got a Tapper in the
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  kitchen, all kind of right there on the campus.
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  And before we took the tour, you you had us look at this picture
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  on the wall and you said kind of pay attention to this picture
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  because it was the original building.
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  Yeah, of that was on the build that we actually ended up going
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  into, correct. Yeah.
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  So it's a very old building, The picture you were talking about,
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  it's a picture. I think it's from 19, maybe 1920
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  or so, maybe a little older. And, yeah, you can see the
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  building and, you know, as you could, you were able to see we
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  kept the building, you know, as original as possible.
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  And it looks really cold, you know, like, we got lucky to find
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  this Mason building right in the heart of, you know, Asheville
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  downtown. Yeah, it's awesome.
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  And then like the kitchen, taproom, breweries, no, maybe
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  it's just the kitchen and taproom side.
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  That's all kind of newer stuff, right.
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  That where we kind of started. Yeah, well, he has, we open in
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  2017, so it's good. And you know, to almost 10
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  years. Yeah, that's where we, you know,
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  some people think, you know, and they don't know all this part of
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  the yeast and fermentation, whether they think we are a
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  restaurant, you know, but you know, that's the good thing
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  because people who come to the restaurant and don't know
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  anything about Wild Labs, they learn about Wild Labs and.
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  And we were able to kind of like mix all the fermentation side of
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  things we do in the lab and stuff with the with the
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  restaurant, right? Like our pizzas are made with
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  Brewers yeast and also brewery. Also we we brew beer for the tap
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  room. We just don't make beer.
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  Like we don't make just one IPA and 1/2 of ice and let's say 1
• 7:04
  Anna Pilsner, which is what we do right now is pears.
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  So basically what we're trying to do is to showcase the yeast
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  and show people how the impact yeast has in beer.
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  So basically let's say I'll give you an example.
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  We have the our call it Tabarer IPA.
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  So we make a batch and then when we go into the fermenter, we
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  split it in two fermenters and we pitch one yeast and 1
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  fermenter and another yeast, a different yeast and the other
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  fermenter. So it's all the same same word,
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  same everything. And the only difference is the
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  yeast. And some people get amazed when
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  they try it side by side. The difference and yeast can
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  make in color and appearance and aroma, flavor.
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  It's it's, it's unbelievable. Yeah, I'm sorry to say.
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  They're, I bet they're blown away.
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  Like you're telling me this beer started the same and then it's
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  two different things now. I bet that blows them away.
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  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Some people like now I can't
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  believe it. It's and that's what it shows
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  how important is is is not just like that's a lot of people
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  think that they only make alcohol and see what you and
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  that's very far from through right.
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  Like roughly 80% of the aromas and flavors in a beer are
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  touched by yeast. Many of them are made by yeast
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  and some other are touched like meaning how yeast interacts with
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  hops, for example, like we see in this in some of these beers
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  and the IBU of both beers are different.
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  And how is that possible? You both beers have the same
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  amount of hops, but that shows you how yeast depending on the
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  strain, how differently they interact with with with hops.
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  Well, I was going to say for people that if they go on your
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  website, which is just, I mean it's extraordinary at White Labs
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  Brewing code.com, what you were just explaining there, not only
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  is it on your website, but you can click each link and there's
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  a, a detailed explanation of that.
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  I mean, can you talk about the process just from from that
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  alone of who is doing that? Because it has to be very
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  educational for people that are coming in and getting that
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  brewery experience. Yeah, we do all in house, right?
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  We have a lab, we have an analytical lab.
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  So as we brew in the beers, we keep getting samples and, and,
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  and you and analyze everything. So what people can do is as you
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  guys said, like go to the website and you'll see the
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  recipe. You see what yeast words use,
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  You can see the fermentation curve.
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  You can see, I don't know information like diacetyl levels
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  or gluten levels. There's so many different, so a
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  lot of information in there that people and that's cool because
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  not only that it's cool just to see it and understand, but also
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  a lot of Brewers or home Brewers as well.
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  When they like a beer, they just go to the website and replicate
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  that that recipe, you know? Right.
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  Well, and I was going to say, a lot of times you can go on a
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  website for a brewery and you'll see a certain style of beer that
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  they have, but yours is taking it to a different level.
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  Yeah, and that's, that's the idea to show everything how we
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  do it and and what do they get out of our beers and our strains
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  too, right. Like how how the strains, the
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  strain that we choose for specific beers, how they behave,
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  temperatures, everything. A cool thing when you're talking
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  about your beers, like just looking on your menu for the
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  beers, it shows the yeast strain per each one.
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  Like either even in the tabber or IPA category.
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  It's West Coast is WLPOO. One in the hazy style is WLPOOS
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  or O66. Every beer style on there has
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  the yeast strain on it, which I think is pretty cool.
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  Yeah, that's the way so people can actually learn and see why
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  they like it, right? Oh, I like this one better than
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  this one. OK, so if they brew they can
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  choose that strain or if they're just like to drink beer, they
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  kind of start to understand that the different types of Ipas and
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  not it's not just hops who makes an IPA different this use also.
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  Was that the original idea when you started this website that
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  you all wanted to have all of this information on there right
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  away for anybody that was coming in, or if that's something that
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  evolved over time? It can evolve over time, but
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  basically we started mostly just by brewing the beer and we
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  wanted to showcase the yeast. We wanted to, like I said at the
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  beginning, education for us, it's so important.
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  So we wanted to start educating people in terms of like what
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  youth can do on, on how, how important also is like when when
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  you develop a recipe, unfortunately, sometimes, not
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  all the time, but sometimes or most of the time, Brewers start
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  thinking about what type of malts I'm going to use, what
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  hops I'm going to use and this and that.
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  And at the end they're like, OK, maybe I should use this strain
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  or so by learning this and understanding this, I think it
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  you can not actually even start a recipe thinking what strain of
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  yeast you want to use based on what you want to do and then
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  move, you know, you know, forward with the with the
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  recipe. Are you guys and probably you
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  specifically able to tell someone if they called you up
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  and say hey, I'm looking for a yeast strain that does this?
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  These are my other ingredients I wanted to do this.
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  Are you guys able to help them and point them in a direction?
• 13:27
  Yeah, yeah, definitely, yeah. The like I said, you know,
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  strains are it's like people, right?
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  Like they all like yeast, right. But we all, we all humans, but
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  we all different, right, Yeah. So it's kind of the same, the
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  same concept. So if you're looking for
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  something specific, yeah, we can point it out and help them
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  finding the right yeast for what they're looking.
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  This seems like an obvious question, but for the layman and
• 14:00
  Steve and I know the answer to this, but we want for everybody
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  else who's listening, can you tell us what yeast is like as a
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  bear? Kind of a simple answer if there
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  is one. It's a single cell fungus,
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  right? That so it's microscopic.
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  You can't really see it with a naked eye and and yeast is
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  everywhere, right? It's not just a lapse.
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  Probably you, you see a fruit, you see flowers, yeast is
• 14:30
  everywhere. Probably you have yeast around
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  you right now. And but the yeast we know now,
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  at least for, for, you know, beer or wine or cider or
• 14:43
  anything, you know, it's very different than the yeast you can
• 14:46
  find right now, you know, in the wild, you know, because it has
• 14:51
  been domesticated, which is kind of cool.
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  It's been domesticated by Brewers throughout thousands of
• 14:58
  years without knowing, right. So yeast are adapting to the
• 15:04
  environment. Brewers were putting that yeast
• 15:07
  on, so they've been gaining a lot of great attributes and the
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  lost some that, for example, if you got yeast from a lab,
• 15:20
  Brewers yeast, if you throw it in the wild, it probably is not
• 15:25
  going to survive. Right.
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  And, and, and for thousands of years, they almost thought it
• 15:30
  was mad until they could see yeast under a microscope.
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  They never really knew what it was.
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  They knew something happened right to, and they knew how to
• 15:37
  make beer, but they never really knew what that thing was until
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  they could actually see it. Yeah, there was so many
• 15:42
  theories, right? Like the first, I don't know my
• 15:46
  Germans pretty bad, but reinstabot I think it's called
• 15:49
  the purity law, the German purity law that right now it
• 15:53
  says that if you follow that law, the only ingredients for
• 15:58
  beer are like grain malt, right, Hobbs water and yeast.
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  But the the original one in the 1500s, or I think it's 15
• 16:07
  hundreds, it didn't include yeast because they didn't know
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  he's existed. So there were so many different
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  theories at the time, very, very probably thousands of years ago
• 16:19
  ago, I don't know exactly, but some people were calling it God
• 16:23
  is good all together. God is good, meaning God.
• 16:26
  God is good. Like, like they thought it was
• 16:29
  something from the gods, like giving them this beverage.
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  And then there was other theories about like a chemical
• 16:41
  reaction between malt and water. There was so many, many, many
• 16:47
  different, you know, theories. Even when they figure out that I
• 16:51
  was actually, there was a this, you know, microorganism was the
• 16:57
  cause of the fermentation. They didn't know where it was
• 17:02
  coming from, right? So they thought it was just some
• 17:06
  a spontaneous generation out of the whatever.
• 17:09
  It was just a spontaneous generate there.
• 17:12
  They didn't know until like late 1800s with poster was actually
• 17:18
  the guy was like, no, it comes from the air, right?
• 17:22
  And that's why you guys need to clean because there's other
• 17:25
  microbes too coming from the air.
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  And if you don't clean properly, you will like spoil your beer.
• 17:30
  That's exactly right. That's exactly right.
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  You know, so yeast does, does a couple of things in beer, create
• 17:37
  CO2, Creates alcohol, which is the part we like the best, I
• 17:41
  think. But there are also other
• 17:44
  byproducts of yeast too, aren't there?
• 17:47
  Oh yeah like flavors compounds like esters, fusel alcohol.
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  It also reduce the pH of the beer to make it safe drinking.
• 17:56
  It phenols some strains right from like Belgium strains and
• 18:00
  stuff, they produce phenols who actually have flavor Diacetyl.
• 18:05
  People don't really want it, but it's a flavor, right?
• 18:09
  So there's so many different, you know, flavors and again,
• 18:14
  aromas chew because yeast interacting with Hobbs, you
• 18:18
  know, can you know, touch, you know, like one thing I like to
• 18:25
  say is like when you know, it's very basic, but you know, hops
• 18:32
  are amazing. I love hops too and they smell
• 18:36
  great. But when you add it, let's say
• 18:39
  you boiling hops when you making the word and you done before
• 18:45
  going into the fermenter. If you try that word before the
• 18:50
  fermentation, with all this great hops you added, probably
• 18:53
  even at the end of the boil because you want a lot of more
• 18:57
  aroma, it tastes terrible. It does so right.
• 19:01
  So I guess beer without yeast is bittersweet.
• 19:06
  Right, it's flat. There's no alcohol.
• 19:08
  Exactly. No alcohol and the flavors are
• 19:11
  terrible. Like so whoever's want to make
• 19:14
  beer or trying to make beer, I, I, I'll encourage them to try
• 19:19
  the word before fermentation and then see the, the final product
• 19:25
  when they, when they done with the fermentation and see that
• 19:27
  that's, that's the magic part, you know?
• 19:30
  You have a lot of folks that are involved in the fermentation
• 19:34
  process. How fascinated are you to watch
• 19:38
  them do what they're doing, and are you constantly learning?
• 19:42
  Oh yeah, all the time. You know, here at Well Labs, you
• 19:45
  know, we make work every day. We make a lot of work every day
• 19:50
  to propagate our strengths. And you see all these people
• 19:54
  working making sure we have the right amount of years to pitch
• 20:00
  or inoculate into this vessels and we will propagate the
• 20:05
  strains and all the quality control, quality assurance, keep
• 20:11
  points we have throughout the whole process.
• 20:14
  It's amazing. And the harvest, it's, it's
• 20:17
  really, it's amazing. Can you talk about the quality
• 20:20
  control of your use? Because you have when I can read
• 20:25
  38 checkpoints that goes through the process.
• 20:28
  Is that right? Yeah.
• 20:30
  So our process takes about 21 days roughly.
• 20:38
  Some strain might take a little more, but we'd say we'd like to
• 20:41
  say 21 days. That's kind of like a good time.
• 20:43
  We found that we can make the best use possible.
• 20:48
  It's like we're growing this amazing cells and then they're
• 20:52
  like super healthy and ready to ferment.
• 20:56
  So throughout this 21 day process starts at the lab,
• 21:02
  probably stays at the lab for about a week growing in there.
• 21:05
  We keep our yeast in our cryogenic freezers.
• 21:08
  They're like -80 Celsius pretty cold.
• 21:12
  That's that's kind of like Walt Disney style.
• 21:15
  That's going to say you don't want to stick your hand in
• 21:17
  there. Walt Disney's head is is in that
• 21:20
  temperature right now. Yeah.
• 21:25
  And yeah, that's that's kind of like a good way to keep yeast
• 21:30
  from shifting, from drifting, from changing, from mutating.
• 21:34
  We want to, you know, give Brewers consistency when it
• 21:37
  comes to yeast and fermentation, right?
• 21:40
  So as we know, yeast will mutate, you will start changing,
• 21:45
  right? If that's what happened
• 21:46
  throughout thousands of years. So if you don't want that to
• 21:49
  happen, if you want WLP 001 California Ale to be the same at
• 21:55
  all times, that's how you have to keep it, you know, and from
• 21:59
  them we start moving into plates, growing colonies and
• 22:03
  then moving into like small amount of liquid media until
• 22:07
  like we have enough, you know, yeast, Then we can go into our,
• 22:13
  our main production. And you know, all those days,
• 22:17
  like we take samples every day and make tests and stuff, you
• 22:21
  know, make sure there's no contamination, make sure you
• 22:25
  know everything's going the way it should, right?
• 22:27
  Like when we talk about contamination, it could be it's
• 22:30
  not just contaminated from another micro could be
• 22:34
  contaminated from a different type of yeast.
• 22:37
  Then it will not be just California ale will be
• 22:40
  California ale plus something else, right?
• 22:42
  So we want to make sure everything it's exactly the way
• 22:46
  it should. So that's, that's the only way
• 22:49
  we can provide the best yeast possible.
• 22:51
  Also given them the most healthy as possible.
• 22:55
  So worse can not only just buy yeast from wild labs and and
• 23:00
  make one batch of beer, they can make several batch of beer.
• 23:04
  They can keep reusing. The healthier you get the yeast,
• 23:06
  the healthier you start, the you know, your fermentation, the
• 23:10
  more generations, the more reused you can have from the
• 23:13
  yeast. And that that's super important.
• 23:15
  That's that's cool. Is that like distilleries do
• 23:19
  when they kind of carry over a mash or something from batch to
• 23:23
  batch? Is that same kind of thing where
• 23:25
  it's you've got that consistency between, you know, you keep some
• 23:29
  of the the yeast from the last batch and put it into the next
• 23:31
  batch kind of thing. Is that something different?
• 23:34
  I don't know exactly because it it depends, because that is if,
• 23:38
  if, if a distiller, that's it's a good question because if the
• 23:42
  distillers are actually fermenting in grain, right,
• 23:48
  which that doesn't happen in in beer.
• 23:50
  In beer, you just separate the grain from from the word and
• 23:54
  then you just add the yeast to the word directly in a
• 23:58
  fermenter. Many distilleries do that, but
• 24:02
  also a lot of more old school, they just ferment in grain.
• 24:07
  So there is a chance when they get pulled some of that and
• 24:10
  added to the next batch to to keep fermenting.
• 24:14
  Yeah, it's kind of like sour dough probably will be of that.
• 24:18
  I think that process, I might be wrong with that process in
• 24:20
  distilling is maybe a sour mash. I really think that's.
• 24:23
  Sour mash, yeah, that's, that's kind of like more because you
• 24:26
  want, you want more a little bit of like, like bacteria.
• 24:30
  So, you know, good bacteria, they're like growing.
• 24:32
  So that's kind of like more of that.
• 24:34
  But it's not about basically reusing the yeast per SE.
• 24:40
  Like Brewers, like Brewers, they got all these yeast in the cone,
• 24:45
  right? And they can harvest that and
• 24:47
  reuse it in the in the next batch.
• 24:50
  Well, that's a, you know, something that we hadn't thought
• 24:52
  about, Steve, the next time we talk to a brewery is that if ask
• 24:54
  if they do that, that's actually a really good thing because that
• 24:57
  helps them, right? They they don't necessarily have
• 24:58
  to buy more. They can kind of continue to use
• 25:00
  it until maybe the the life cycle of that yeast runs out.
• 25:04
  Yeah. So I would say, I don't know,
• 25:08
  maybe I would say 90% of the breweries reuse yeast.
• 25:13
  It depends on the on the brewery, right?
• 25:16
  Some they don't, they don't brew that often.
• 25:20
  So you know, you know yeast, you know, you, you have to keep it
• 25:28
  in certain ways to if you're not going to be, if it's not going
• 25:30
  to be fermenting and you're going to save it to use in a
• 25:34
  different batch in 3-4 days or a week or so, you need to keep it
• 25:40
  the cooler cold without any oxygen and and then that's fine.
• 25:47
  But no, like if you're not going to reuse it, if you try to reuse
• 25:52
  yeast in a month or more, that youth probably is not going to
• 25:57
  be great. As a home Brewer, I'm sure it
• 25:59
  can be done. That's going to take another
• 26:01
  process or another thing to do that I just probably won't keep
• 26:05
  up with. And they're probably guys out
• 26:06
  there that do that. But I'm like, yeah, I'm dumping
• 26:09
  it. I can't.
• 26:10
  Yeah, I used to, I used to home brew a lot and I used, I just
• 26:13
  did a few times just in kind of like check it out and and it
• 26:18
  works. Works great for home Brewers
• 26:20
  unless you have this kind of cool small like conical
• 26:25
  fermenters. If you for men in in a bucket or
• 26:29
  in a carboy, it's a little more difficult because you have to
• 26:32
  get rid of all the beer first, right?
• 26:35
  And then ideally you want to leave a little bit of liquid on
• 26:39
  top of the the yeast cake and maybe if you need add a little
• 26:44
  like the Stillwater or something so you can re rouse it and make
• 26:48
  it more liquidy so you can actually pour it out to a Mason
• 26:53
  jar or something and save it. OK, but is it?
• 26:57
  Does oxygen affect the yeast 2 if in that situation?
• 27:01
  Yeah, you have to avoid as much oxygen as possible.
• 27:04
  That's why the more rudimentary you are and with tools and stuff
• 27:08
  the the the less yeast will like last.
• 27:11
  Like oxygen triggers fermentation, the minute oxygen
• 27:17
  yeast sensors oxygen there the start using it to start building
• 27:23
  lipids, fatty acid to try to start like it's time to grow,
• 27:28
  it's time to ferment. So and they start using some of
• 27:32
  their reserved sugars they have. And if you, if yeast is losing
• 27:39
  all that by the time you really need it to actually ferment is
• 27:43
  going to be kind of weak, it's not going to be ready.
• 27:48
  With with all the Advanced Research that and high standards
• 27:53
  you have in fermentation talk about the technology behind that
• 27:57
  because obviously that you had to probably keep up with that
• 28:00
  over the years. Yeah, you know, while as we, we,
• 28:04
  we innovative a lot, right, like innovation for us it's, it's
• 28:11
  huge, right. Like try always to push the
• 28:14
  envelope. Actually, probably it's not
• 28:17
  exactly related with technology specifically if you talk about
• 28:22
  like machinery and stuff, which later on we did.
• 28:25
  But at the beginning, before Chris Y, before Wild Labs, I
• 28:30
  left from 1995. Before 1995 there was not what
• 28:35
  people know today as peachable yeast, right?
• 28:39
  First of all, dry yeast for beers with non existent.
• 28:43
  Basically, at the time it was just.
• 28:45
  I would not hear things all right.
• 28:47
  Bread. Bread yeast and it makes pretty
• 28:50
  bad beer. And then there was another lab
• 28:54
  before wild labs who actually started making liquid yeast.
• 28:58
  But at the time, the yeast you could get before wild labs was
• 29:03
  not concentrated enough. So that's when that's when
• 29:08
  starters that's so popular among, you know, home Brewers
• 29:14
  became popular because you needed to grow whatever that
• 29:19
  liquid yeast you were buying, you needed to grow it in order
• 29:22
  to pitch that into your 5 gallons.
• 29:25
  So I think what was amazing now it's kind of like a normal
• 29:30
  thing. But at the time, Chris, why his
• 29:33
  first innovation was actually concentrated yeast enough so you
• 29:38
  didn't need to make a starter. You could pitch directly what
• 29:43
  you buy from us and you have fermentation.
• 29:46
  So that was a that was a first key.
• 29:51
  I guess you can call it technological at the time, but
• 29:54
  but then we moved to what we pure pitch.
• 29:58
  We used to grow yeast and stainless steel like any other
• 30:03
  lab do right now. But you know, starting
• 30:07
  20/13/2014, we'll start working in a different way of doing it.
• 30:12
  Well, you know, we start doing, doing research and stuff and we
• 30:16
  found in the Pharmaceutical industry, there's this films
• 30:20
  where they grow human injectables and they're already
• 30:24
  sterilized. So, you know, that means less
• 30:29
  moving because when you work with, with a, with a fermentor
• 30:33
  like type of like stainless steel, you have to move the
• 30:37
  yeast a lot. You have to clean it now you
• 30:40
  have to use chemicals, you need to relay on someone cleaning
• 30:44
  properly. So when we move to this new
• 30:47
  technology, we basically we have this films and they're like in
• 30:55
  this case right now that we have like 400 liters pretty big and
• 30:59
  they're already come sterilized. We sterilize it with gamma
• 31:03
  radiation and then we actually grow the the yeast in there and
• 31:09
  there's no room for errors of like someone not cleaning
• 31:13
  properly or contaminated or less moving the yeast around so it
• 31:17
  can pick up oxygen. Same as beer, right?
• 31:20
  Like the the less oxygen you get beer in contact it will spoil
• 31:26
  any great beer than we yeast. The the containers, the four,
• 31:30
  would you say they're 400 liters?
• 31:33
  Yeah, I saw them, Steve. It looks like something from a
• 31:36
  science fiction movie. It really is.
• 31:38
  You could see through them and they're bubbling and you can see
• 31:40
  the stuff in them. It looks really cool.
• 31:42
  I, I just think that it's an interesting conversation to
• 31:45
  think to 1995 to now, 2026, what people knew then and
• 31:53
  fermentation and what they know now and how much better the beer
• 31:58
  is now. Not to say it wasn't good then,
• 32:00
  because that's what they knew, right?
• 32:02
  I mean, look at, look at the evolution of even that.
• 32:06
  Yeah, yeah. Well, Chris, Chris White always
• 32:09
  tell me the story that when he started there were no Ipas.
• 32:13
  You can't think of like a a beer industry right now without an
• 32:16
  IPA. Why?
• 32:17
  They were like Amber Lagers. That was a cool beer.
• 32:20
  An Amber Lagger. No Amber Lagger number L people
• 32:25
  like craft beers were not even making lagers at the time.
• 32:28
  That was just for microbreweries.
• 32:33
  But yeah, like that's like people start, you know, pushing
• 32:37
  more, you know, and trying to learn and and and and and and
• 32:40
  start creating different styles and and thing like a CIPAS or,
• 32:47
  you know, revamping old forgotten, you know, styles like
• 32:51
  Rotzitski's or so songs, you know, stuff.
• 32:55
  Then they were like just regional beers at the time and
• 33:00
  they became, you know, like, you know, that's the beauty about
• 33:05
  beer, right? Like wine depends a lot of the
• 33:09
  to roar, right? Like it depends if you if you
• 33:12
  don't grow, you need to specific grape to make specifics wine.
• 33:19
  And if you don't live in that area, you screw right.
• 33:23
  So but beer, beer, the amazing thing about beer, you get the
• 33:27
  right grain, you get the right hops, you can get it very
• 33:31
  easily. Even if you make a German style
• 33:34
  beer, you can get those hops, you can get the right grain, you
• 33:37
  get the right yeast. You just adjust a little bit of
• 33:40
  the water if you want, like kind of like making it look closer to
• 33:44
  the area and that's it. You can make a perfect and
• 33:46
  amazing German style beer in North Carolina.
• 33:52
  We're in Tennessee. That's right.
• 33:55
  Speaking of which, I'm actually drinking something that has
• 33:58
  yeast in it and it's from one of your neighbors burial and
• 34:03
  they've they've got the the greatest names cognitive
• 34:05
  indifference towards something more fulfilling to West Coast
• 34:11
  IPA, which is. Yeah, incredible.
• 34:14
  Famous for their, for their names.
• 34:16
  Their names. I would.
• 34:18
  When when I was there, we went, we went multiple times and I
• 34:21
  would go up to the bartender. I go, you don't need the whole
• 34:22
  name, do you? She goes no, just like the first
• 34:24
  2 letters, her first 2 words. It's like.
• 34:27
  When I go there. My #3 beer right there.
• 34:29
  Give me that, yeah. They don't have 15 minutes for
• 34:32
  you to order one beer based on the name Steve.
• 34:36
  What are you sipping on? I am drinking Zul tonight out of
• 34:40
  Knoxville and Nashville, of course.
• 34:42
  Yeah, it is. Sunshine is my Destroyer, which
• 34:46
  I've had before, which is a sour fruited and this is basically
• 34:51
  it's a gluten free sour with red Raspberry, lemon, vanilla.
• 34:56
  It's got everything in it. It's tart, but it's good.
• 34:58
  It's got 4 fruits, yeah. See the color scheme on this?
• 35:04
  Yeah. Pablo, you're at work and I see
• 35:06
  you. You maybe you might not be
• 35:07
  drinking a beer. I hadn't seen you drink one, but
• 35:09
  you probably had a few tastings at at work before, right?
• 35:12
  Since you guys brew beer. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 35:15
  We, we have like shifties, we call it done with our shift.
• 35:20
  We have beers at the top room. It's great.
• 35:22
  You know, like that's another great thing.
• 35:26
  You like you, you'll see a lot of employees finishing their
• 35:31
  shift and sitting at the top room and having their shifters,
• 35:36
  you know, it's great and asking question and the Brewers and the
• 35:40
  accountant maybe also sitting there too and discussing the
• 35:44
  beers. And that's that's a great thing.
• 35:48
  Like, this is an industry that you can have a beer at 11 AM and
• 35:54
  nobody's going to look you look at you like you're a weirdo.
• 35:58
  Everything is OK then, Pablo, Curious, how long have you been
• 36:03
  with White Labs? It's almost almost 10 years.
• 36:08
  OK. Did you start at what you're
• 36:12
  doing now, or did you start a different role?
• 36:15
  No, I started what I'm doing now.
• 36:19
  I was a little less technical. I guess I learned a lot during
• 36:24
  this 10 years. I, I was always, even when I was
• 36:28
  making beer, I was always hooked by the fermentation on the coal
• 36:35
  side, right? Like even when I started home
• 36:37
  brewing, you know, like every home Brewer, you know, I was
• 36:40
  like, maybe I'm going to invest some money and buy this big
• 36:44
  nice, you know, pump, you know, systems, right, pretty
• 36:48
  expensive, right? And then talking with my local
• 36:52
  home brew shop, you know, this guy, you know, said something to
• 36:57
  me. He's like, you know, you spend
• 37:00
  the money however you want, but why don't you start spending
• 37:05
  money first on your cold side? Get a better fermenter, try to
• 37:10
  see if you can find a way to have temperature control and
• 37:16
  you'll realize, and you don't need all this fancy equipment to
• 37:20
  make worked, right. So I heard that vice and my beer
• 37:28
  went from turbo to really good. So because yeah, that's not
• 37:32
  saying that making good word or making word is not important.
• 37:37
  What I'm saying is that when you make the difference, it's in the
• 37:42
  cold side, right? Like you can make the best word
• 37:45
  possible. You can check your you, you hit
• 37:48
  the right sugar content, you hit the right pH, everything went
• 37:52
  perfect. And then you have a turbo
• 37:56
  fermentation. Probably the beer is not going
• 37:58
  to be good and you can make like I had.
• 38:00
  I made great beers and when my mash got stuck I was like
• 38:06
  pulling war with grain. I was getting dark.
• 38:11
  I was like mad. I'm just whatever.
• 38:13
  I'm just going to throw this in the fermenter, but I'm going to
• 38:16
  make sure my fermentation is good and the beard turn out
• 38:19
  great. Yeah, that's where I'm at with
• 38:21
  home rowing is I need that. I need to invest, upgrade my
• 38:25
  cold side, whatever that I don't really have one.
• 38:28
  It's I really just really done ales and just kind of did the
• 38:31
  room temperature thing. But I tried a logger once and I
• 38:35
  try to reverse engineer my refrigerator, make it warmer.
• 38:37
  It didn't quite work that way. So and I would like to be able
• 38:41
  to make some kind of logger or something.
• 38:42
  Yeah, there are ways without spending a lot of money then you
• 38:45
  can actually I would start with like get up.
• 38:49
  You don't need a conical for Manor, right, unless you're
• 38:51
  going to be but just a stainless steel for Manor.
• 38:55
  That will make a a big difference and and then
• 39:00
  something then you can actually control better the temperature.
• 39:03
  Yeah, I did. Last time I brewed, I did
• 39:06
  something different. I fermented in a keg and a corny
• 39:08
  keg and then transferred it to another keg for serving.
• 39:12
  And and the main reason for that was exudation.
• 39:15
  It didn't touch the air into secondary and then that was my
• 39:18
  serving keg. So that was kind of cool and did
• 39:20
  make a little bit of a difference.
• 39:22
  Sometimes think it has to be cool when you're sitting around
• 39:26
  and all of a sudden something else has been brewed.
• 39:30
  Fermentation. There's been something new you
• 39:33
  ever tease your buddies about. You know what?
• 39:36
  We got something new on Horizon, and I've already tried it.
• 39:40
  You think this beer is good now? Wait to try it next time.
• 39:47
  Yeah, yeah, it happens, happens a lot like like everything,
• 39:51
  right, like the beer people making right now is could be
• 39:53
  great, but then maybe choosing a different type of of style
• 39:58
  strain of yeast will like improve.
• 40:01
  Or, or get more for what they want, but like it's up to what
• 40:05
  they want, right? Like, and I think the biggest
• 40:09
  challenge we talk about home Brewers.
• 40:12
  I think the biggest mistake that I made too is like as home
• 40:16
  Brewers, we you just make a different beer every time.
• 40:22
  So you never really nail the right the beer you want unless
• 40:28
  you're really good at it and you're happy.
• 40:30
  But in general, when when once I stop that craziness of making an
• 40:35
  IPA, the next time as it's on the next time, a Belgium
• 40:39
  quadruple the next time, whatever.
• 40:43
  Once I stop that, I'm like, OK, I want to make a good IPA.
• 40:46
  So it's like work on the IPA, work on the recipe.
• 40:51
  You're going to make it first you're going to try and like be
• 40:54
  I don't like this, I don't like that.
• 40:55
  So then you make adjustment. That's why taking notes, making
• 40:59
  knowing that all the parameters and your temperature.
• 41:03
  The worst thing you can do as a Brewer is say like, oh, this
• 41:07
  working, I'll remember next time.
• 41:10
  You're not going to remember you never you.
• 41:13
  There's no way you're going to remember.
• 41:14
  Just take notes and it's amazing.
• 41:17
  Next time you look at it and you're like, Oh yeah, I'm on the
• 41:20
  right path or not. I need to adjust this.
• 41:23
  I need to adjust that until you find the the the the beer you
• 41:27
  like and how it how it tastes and then you just repeat it.
• 41:32
  Yeah, you, you dial it in and I think that's where I need to go
• 41:35
  next. It's the kind of not necessarily
• 41:37
  perfect, but work on one style and, and and dial it in and make
• 41:40
  it better and better. Every time I do the same thing I
• 41:42
  jump around. Yeah.
• 41:44
  And the other part, the other thing is the equipment, right?
• 41:48
  Like it's every equipment is different, right?
• 41:51
  So that's why it's not easy. If I make a great IPA and I give
• 41:59
  you the recipe, it's not going to be the same, right, Because
• 42:04
  we have different equipments. It's, that's, that's the reason
• 42:07
  why breweries when they just open, I always try to give them
• 42:12
  three or four months before actually judge them as a good or
• 42:16
  or not good brewery, because they need to learn the
• 42:21
  equipment. And that's, that's very
• 42:24
  important. Yeah, it might be a larger scale
• 42:26
  than they're used to or just dialing in it.
• 42:28
  Yeah. So many factors.
• 42:31
  Yep, there's something you guys have and I think it's mind
• 42:35
  blowing. Maybe it's maybe it's all the
• 42:36
  same to you guys, but I think it's awesome.
• 42:39
  It's it's called, is it Modagen D?
• 42:44
  It's like your next generation line of bioengineered brewing
• 42:47
  yeast. And what I think is awesome
• 42:49
  about this, it's designed to eliminate, to eliminate diacidol
• 42:53
  before it even starts. Like that's a game changer.
• 42:56
  That's huge. Like that's going to take the
• 42:59
  workout for like most home Brewers or even Brewers in
• 43:03
  general. Can you talk about that thing?
• 43:05
  And let me say real quick, not to miss the headline, but it's a
• 43:08
  really big headline on your website.
• 43:11
  Like it like, so look at this. This is a game changer.
• 43:15
  So Scott's not just reading it off.
• 43:18
  I mean, it's actually on what you all really promoting right
• 43:21
  now. Yeah, it's a thing.
• 43:22
  It's a problem. People have Brewers, have
• 43:24
  diacetol, and it's like, if you could eliminate that, holy shit.
• 43:29
  Yeah. So the the follow up on that
• 43:30
  question too, how new is that for you all and where, where has
• 43:35
  it gone from other folks that aren't arrested in in using
• 43:39
  that? It's pretty new, has a couple of
• 43:41
  months only. So we decided to go into
• 43:49
  bioengineers trains all, all our life.
• 43:52
  We just make natural yeasts and stuff.
• 43:56
  But why not, right? Like it's kind of fun.
• 43:59
  And so if you want, I can explain a little bit how
• 44:04
  diacetals form and all that, how it works.
• 44:08
  Basically, yeast doesn't really produce diacetyl.
• 44:13
  What happened is yeast during fermentation produce a precursor
• 44:18
  called alphacidolactic. This precursor drips out of the
• 44:23
  cell into the beer and by oxidation becomes diacetyl in
• 44:30
  the beer. Now if you have yeast in
• 44:35
  suspension still and it's still active, the cool thing is then
• 44:39
  yeast can absorb, reabsorb that diacetyl and convert it in a
• 44:44
  different compound that has no flavor or or aroma or anything,
• 44:49
  right? So that's why diacetyl, the
• 44:52
  problem with diacetyl is like diacetyl is going to be formed
• 44:56
  all the time. If there is fermentation,
• 44:59
  there's going to be diacetyl formation because the yeast is
• 45:01
  going to produce this alpha acidolactate.
• 45:03
  It's going to script it out of the cell into the beer and
• 45:08
  diacetyl is going to get formed by oxidation.
• 45:10
  Now the problem with when you actually taste diacetyl smelling
• 45:14
  a beer is either you pull the yeast before was actually able
• 45:20
  to reabsorb it, or you cool down really quick and now yeast is
• 45:29
  not very active. You know, you crash cold and
• 45:32
  then he's not active and cannot resolve that, that that yeast
• 45:36
  that that diastole. So that's how diastole gets
• 45:40
  formed. So the cool thing about this the
• 45:44
  motogen the is I basically there's an enzyme called ALDC
• 45:50
  that you know, there is a product then you can actually
• 45:54
  add right now outside, like you just add it to your fermentor.
• 46:00
  And when you created this alphasilolactate, this enzyme
• 46:06
  will convert, it will like convert this precursor into the
• 46:15
  the compound that has no flavor. So it never becomes diacetate,
• 46:18
  right? So you add it to the to the to
• 46:20
  the fermentation. Now this what is this is cool is
• 46:23
  like all that is happening inside the cell.
• 46:27
  So by, you know, this bioengineer yeast, you know,
• 46:32
  it's actually producing this enzyme, this ALDC enzyme inside
• 46:36
  the cell. So it won't let you know, have
• 46:40
  this this conversion. So basically the yeast is not
• 46:45
  excreting any alpha pseudo lacted and becoming diethyl
• 46:48
  outside the the cell. That is, that is absolutely me.
• 46:51
  That is science at its best. It is science at its best.
• 46:56
  And again, I'm looking at your website, there's a whole
• 46:59
  section, frequently asked questions, everything.
• 47:02
  My question is, was this research that initially you all
• 47:09
  set out the do and wanted to come up with?
• 47:13
  And if so, how long did it take for you to to come up with this
• 47:17
  use? No, they're like, you know,
• 47:20
  there are other labs doing it too.
• 47:22
  The I guess the difference we may, we there's different ways
• 47:28
  of doing it. One is called CRISPR that's the
• 47:32
  most used by other lab labs, but we use a different one called
• 47:36
  Crelogs then we think works better.
• 47:41
  You know, I don't want to go really deep into why, but
• 47:45
  basically in a in a nutshell, we seen that with this new this
• 47:49
  method we we use in which that, yes, it's, it's doing it right
• 47:54
  now. You can repeat yeast this this
• 47:57
  year's better, you know, so more generation, you know, nowadays
• 48:02
  cost is a big thing for breweries.
• 48:05
  Unfortunately, the industry is not as strong as it used to be,
• 48:09
  so that's what we want. We want people to buy great
• 48:14
  amazing yeast but also be able to you reuse it many times and
• 48:19
  reduce the cost. Can can that that new yeast be
• 48:25
  used in different styles? Is it going to be kind of cater
• 48:28
  for different styles or is it kind of 11 size fits all?
• 48:32
  No, yeah, it's a, it's still, it's not, it's not a different
• 48:35
  yeast. So it's basically we chose four
• 48:40
  of our strains and work on this. So one is the California, 1 is
• 48:44
  the London Fog, the other one is the German lager, the 8:30 and
• 48:52
  the other one is the the Vermont strain.
• 48:56
  So we chose 4 strains and we work on this bioengineers a
• 49:01
  strain. So if you if you've been using
• 49:03
  Cali, it's going to be the same Cali, but the only thing is like
• 49:08
  it's not going to let this the acid will.
• 49:12
  And let me and let me read something real quick to just on
• 49:16
  that one is the so the Vermont algae just according to your
• 49:19
  website and this is really interesting.
• 49:21
  The strain produces a complex fruity Ester profile of Peach,
• 49:25
  apricot and like light citrus that compliments any compliments
• 49:31
  any aggressively hot beer. So very, very interesting,
• 49:36
  descriptive. Has to be a lot of breweries out
• 49:39
  there that would be interested in something like that.
• 49:41
  Oh, yeah, yeah, it's great for, you know, Brewers mostly use it
• 49:45
  for like, hazies, you know, like IPA.
• 49:49
  Then they want a little more fruit character.
• 49:52
  So yeah, it's a great strain. What?
• 49:55
  Why would someone not use them within those four styles that
• 49:59
  you talked about? Why would someone not use that?
• 50:00
  Is it just cost maybe? Because again, it takes some of
• 50:03
  the. That's not really a big
• 50:04
  difference. It's a little bit more but not
• 50:06
  not substantial or anything. I get some people don't feel
• 50:11
  like the need. They have a good process, they
• 50:14
  never have issues with diacetyl. Some people are like very
• 50:17
  traditional list. They the like no.
• 50:21
  Eating. Yeah, those people who actually
• 50:25
  don't want to use enzymes at all, you know like enzymes to to
• 50:31
  do different type of jobs when they can make the beer better or
• 50:36
  like like there's enzymes to reduce gluten, right.
• 50:41
  There's enzymes like this one will actually avoid diethyl
• 50:47
  formation. There's many different enzymes
• 50:49
  who do different jobs. Did the enzymes who actually cut
• 50:52
  down sugars right. If you want to up do your ABV in
• 50:57
  a beer or if you want to have like close to 0 sugars, you can
• 51:03
  use gluco amylase enzymes, right?
• 51:07
  Call it ultra firm Wildlabs. And so it cuts down maltose or
• 51:13
  any more complex sugar all into glucose.
• 51:15
  So yeast can eat everything. So there's some people, you
• 51:19
  know, I don't want to add anything, right?
• 51:21
  That's more like a German point of view, right?
• 51:24
  They, they don't. So German if you follow German
• 51:29
  Brewer. If you follow the Rahane Sabat,
• 51:31
  you can only use water hops. Malt.
• 51:34
  That's it, right? You better have that.
• 51:37
  You better have that process figured out too.
• 51:40
  Yeah, that's funny. We can speak on that 'cause we
• 51:43
  had the the focus on from Hoffrau House earlier this year
• 51:46
  and they could talk about that. And Scott, you've been in
• 51:48
  Germany, not exactly a whole big crab beer Mecca there.
• 51:52
  They're doing what they did hundreds of years ago and
• 51:56
  they're sticking to the same couple of gradients.
• 51:58
  It's a. It's a working formula for sure.
• 52:01
  And I think it's great because, you know, we have a lot of craft
• 52:04
  breweries the rest of the world, like if you know, if in Germany
• 52:07
  they want to keep this traditions and keep making the
• 52:11
  the original styles of beers and how they were made for years,
• 52:15
  it's great. Yeah, I'll tell you, just by
• 52:17
  being over there, it gave me so much of A new found appreciation
• 52:22
  for those styles and really drinking and and tasting and
• 52:25
  understanding what those are and how good they are.
• 52:28
  When I came back here, I brought that with me.
• 52:30
  When I found a Blogger or pilsner here, I can really
• 52:32
  appreciate them. Yeah, and that's the thing,
• 52:35
  drinking it fresh, because probably what we get here is not
• 52:41
  the best, you know, it takes time traveling across from
• 52:45
  Europe to here. I don't know if it's kept cold
• 52:48
  at all time, probably not. So it's it's it's amazing.
• 52:52
  It's still good beers when you taste it there, it's it's so
• 52:58
  different, right? Like have you ever tried Orval?
• 53:04
  I. Probably here.
• 53:06
  Probably here. I have.
• 53:07
  Orval, it's an amazing Belgian. It's like a Trappist, but it has
• 53:12
  this. If you try here in the States or
• 53:15
  anywhere outside Belgium, it's it's kind of funky, has this
• 53:22
  Bretanomicis type of flavor and stuff and you and it's everybody
• 53:28
  loves it because of it. But if you go to Belgium, that's
• 53:32
  not the flavor it doesn't have. Actually, the Brewer who makes
• 53:38
  this beer hates that flavor. He's like, that's not the way
• 53:42
  our vault should taste. And we all love it here because
• 53:44
  things like that. So that's, that's, that's,
• 53:47
  that's amazing, right? Guinness is something along
• 53:50
  those lines where it's, I was in Ireland, had it over there,
• 53:53
  fantastic come over here and it's it comes from there.
• 53:55
  It's brewed there. You don't brew it here.
• 53:57
  So it's, but it's, I think it's just the freshness thing at the
• 53:59
  end of the day. Yeah, makes sense.
• 54:02
  Freshness, freshness for beer. It's, it's, it's so important,
• 54:05
  you know, like it is. If I go to a supermarket and I,
• 54:08
  I'm a IPA guy. So fortunately if I don't see a
• 54:15
  date, I don't buy it. If the day if I see a date and
• 54:20
  it's past I'm very picky but it's past like a a month or a
• 54:25
  month and a half I don't buy it. That is picky.
• 54:29
  Yeah. So yeah, I'm the crazy one who
• 54:32
  actually people looking at the cans like and.
• 54:37
  Like where is it? Yeah, because I I tried amazing
• 54:41
  Ipas, like great brands, great breweries, and I tried to just
• 54:46
  buy them and if past their time, they're not great.
• 54:50
  Pablo, can I tell you? Can I tell you something real
• 54:52
  quick? Because this is actually a
• 54:55
  conversation that Scott and I were just having recently and we
• 54:59
  were texting a couple nights ago with some friends of ours.
• 55:02
  If you go into a grocery store and you see beer and maybe it's
• 55:07
  been there for a long time, maybe there's some brands that
• 55:10
  they're no longer selling. Or are in business.
• 55:15
  No longer in business. But there is another one and
• 55:18
  this is really cool. Like years ago same happened.
• 55:22
  Went to the local supermarket and there was this cart full of
• 55:26
  beer and they're like on sale for like nothing.
• 55:30
  I don't know, $3 a six pack. And when I look, I see probably
• 55:39
  5 or 6-6 packs of Bigfoot, the bottling wine from Sierra Nevada
• 55:46
  get out of here. And those are great because
• 55:49
  those beers, they can handle time unless they were under the
• 55:52
  sun, which they were not, right? So probably they were not cold
• 55:56
  at all times. But those age, right?
• 55:59
  Actually, people do this. They get across years, right?
• 56:02
  They do. The verticals, yeah.
• 56:04
  The verticals. So I'm like, OK, I'm going to
• 56:08
  buy all this and people looking at me, oh, look at this loser
• 56:11
  buying all this old beer. I'm like, no, you're the loser.
• 56:14
  I I didn't think it's an interesting.
• 56:15
  Yeah, I think it's an interesting conversation because
• 56:17
  of what, you know, depending on the beer and the beer style.
• 56:20
  But you walk into a grocery store and you start looking at a
• 56:23
  date. It's like anything else going.
• 56:25
  Do I really want to buy that? And why are you still selling
• 56:28
  this? Yeah.
• 56:29
  Yeah, yeah, those. So those those they're beers who
• 56:32
  are might be fine right after like a long time, they can hold
• 56:36
  because they're high gravity beers, right?
• 56:39
  So they hold better. But an IPA?
• 56:43
  Nope. Yeah, got to be fresh.
• 56:46
  There's a there's a yeast I keep hearing about and I'm going to
• 56:49
  shout out to a Nick and Joe from Hop in We're Drinking podcast
• 56:52
  because I keep hearing it on their podcast a lot because I
• 56:54
  want to try it. Is the Quebec yeast?
• 56:56
  Is that something you guys do? Are you familiar with that
• 57:01
  yeast? Yeah, we actually we make our
• 57:04
  pizzas with a Kovic strain. OK, OK, nice.
• 57:09
  Yeah, we have several different ones.
• 57:11
  Kovikes come from Norway. They're like what people call
• 57:15
  they can't. They follow under the farmhouse
• 57:19
  umbrella, let's say. What it's interesting about the
• 57:23
  strains is sacrifices Cervicia like any other ale strain.
• 57:27
  But what is interesting is that they can ferment really hot and
• 57:33
  still be clean. Clean meaning like it won't
• 57:36
  produce a lot of crazy. Like if you grab any other ale
• 57:40
  strain and format at 90°, you're not going to like that beer very
• 57:44
  much. It's going to be full of fusel
• 57:46
  alcohol, the crazy Ester. So it's not it's not going to be
• 57:50
  what you call a clean beer, but this strains can.
• 57:53
  So it's very interesting how they the mutate also to work
• 58:01
  that way and also was part of why how people were using it in
• 58:06
  in Norway is the reason they work the the way the the way
• 58:10
  they work. Yeah, it's very versatile,
• 58:12
  right. And for the somebody maybe does
• 58:14
  it back to the cold side that you were talking about, maybe if
• 58:16
  you don't have the proper stuff that might benefit you, which is
• 58:19
  actually what I'm kind of thinking of getting on the next
• 58:21
  brew. Yeah, there.
• 58:24
  It's great. What what I like about it is
• 58:27
  like they're like again for men hotter.
• 58:30
  So what it means means then your fermentation is going to be done
• 58:34
  quicker. And so a lot of breweries are
• 58:39
  using it. It's not as much as they used to
• 58:42
  be like probably years ago they were like super popular and
• 58:46
  everybody want to to use them now kind of slow down.
• 58:50
  People are going more for the traditional strains and stuff.
• 58:53
  But I think it's there's still great strains.
• 58:56
  Yeah, it's also one of those maybe those purists that you
• 58:58
  were talking about earlier like, hey, that's kind of cheating in
• 59:01
  a way if we have temperature control.
• 59:04
  But they're not, they're not, you know, bioengineer or
• 59:08
  anything. They're natural strains.
• 59:10
  There is a theory, I'm not 100% sure if it's true, but makes
• 59:16
  sense. You know, like this trains come
• 59:19
  from farmers in Norway and basically, you know, a farmer is
• 59:26
  not a Brewer, they just work in the farm all day.
• 59:30
  But they will make beer for for themselves, right?
• 59:35
  And larger amounts on a home Brewer.
• 59:38
  So maybe for the whole winter, whatever or for the summer and
• 59:44
  they will actually traditionally as a tradition in Norway, they
• 59:50
  were like boiled for too long, like probably even like 2 hours
• 59:57
  or more 3 right? Not sure why exactly they will
• 1:00:01
  use juniper and different type of adjuncts and stuff, kind of
• 1:00:05
  different. But the theory is that they've
• 1:00:09
  been basically working on the farm and brewing at the same
• 1:00:12
  time. So from the farm.
• 1:00:15
  You don't have electricity or at the time they don't have
• 1:00:17
  electricity, so you start working on the slide.
• 1:00:21
  You go to sleep when it gets dark, so probably boiling for
• 1:00:24
  that long and not having a way to chill that to the right
• 1:00:28
  temperature. That probably started adding
• 1:00:32
  yeast at very hot temperatures, probably around 90 or so.
• 1:00:35
  So you start adapting to that temperature and start working,
• 1:00:39
  you know, So that's what's amazing about yeast, right?
• 1:00:41
  Like same as was talking earlier, now yeast basically
• 1:00:46
  adapted to what we wanted, you know, and if Peter goes, oh, we
• 1:00:53
  don't like this beer, does the yeast away?
• 1:00:56
  Oh, we like this beer, reuse the yeast.
• 1:00:58
  That's how it is, you know, started to, you know, evolve and
• 1:01:03
  change, you know? Yeah, that's cool something and
• 1:01:07
  I know you guys and maybe maybe most people do know you from
• 1:01:11
  Liquid yeast White Labs. Do you guys do any dry yeast?
• 1:01:16
  Yes, we do you do. We have a few strains and dry as
• 1:01:19
  well. Yeah, our main main thing, main
• 1:01:23
  core everything is liquid yeast. But we, we wanted to also some
• 1:01:28
  breweries like dry years, convenience and dry years in
• 1:01:32
  terms of maybe a shelf life. So more and more we start having
• 1:01:37
  people asking, Oh, I love your strain.
• 1:01:40
  I love this specific strain. But for whatever reason, I don't
• 1:01:45
  really, I can't repeat. So I can't, I have, I like to
• 1:01:50
  have yeast all the time in my cooler.
• 1:01:52
  I can grab a break and throw it there and keep moving.
• 1:01:56
  So we like basically we're like, OK, let's let's start like
• 1:01:59
  making probably the what we think is the best dry yeast out
• 1:02:04
  there in terms of like we know what liquid yeast can do for
• 1:02:09
  beer. And so we wanted to kind of like
• 1:02:14
  try to replicate and have our dry yeast as close as the
• 1:02:19
  quality of of our liquid as possible.
• 1:02:22
  So we do a lot of like QCQA, like we really want to make it
• 1:02:29
  as best as possible out there. I, I, I bet shipping is probably
• 1:02:33
  a big deal too, shipping dry yeast versus shipping the liquid
• 1:02:36
  yeast with because you don't usually have to like pack it in
• 1:02:38
  like dry ice and all that the. The liquid yeast, keep it cold.
• 1:02:43
  Liquid, you have to keep it cold.
• 1:02:46
  Dry yeast usually that if you're going to keep it, it, it's
• 1:02:51
  always better to keep it cold. But if you're going to ship it
• 1:02:54
  for a day or two or so, it's fine to ship it OK a room
• 1:02:58
  temperature or whatever it is. Are there some other pros and
• 1:03:01
  cons between dried yeast and and liquid yeast just in general?
• 1:03:06
  Personally, I think I like liquid yeast.
• 1:03:10
  I think it can express flavors and aromas better.
• 1:03:15
  There has to be a difference, right?
• 1:03:16
  Like liquid yeast is produced daily freshly.
• 1:03:22
  It's like going to the farm and, and squeeze milk out of the cow
• 1:03:28
  and it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like we make small
• 1:03:35
  batches every time. You know, when it comes to dry
• 1:03:38
  ease, you know, you make tons of that dry ease.
• 1:03:44
  You it's liquid yeast and you dry it basically, right.
• 1:03:47
  So you extract all the, the, the, the water.
• 1:03:51
  And again, I think if you will ask me five years ago or a
• 1:03:59
  little more, I will be like, Oh no, no, I don't want dry yeast
• 1:04:02
  at all. I think dry yeast became really,
• 1:04:07
  really good right now. And like people been learning
• 1:04:11
  how to dry better and keep it healthier and stuff.
• 1:04:16
  So that's what I was saying, like when we did the first Test
• 1:04:19
  for dry, that's what we wanted. We wanted to be as close at our
• 1:04:24
  liquid as possible and I think we did a pretty, pretty good
• 1:04:28
  job. I've got a personal question for
• 1:04:30
  just home brewing. Can you pitch too much yeast and
• 1:04:34
  say a 5 gallon batch? Like if I put 2 packets in does
• 1:04:39
  that hurt anything at the end of the day or is it just?
• 1:04:42
  Asking for a friend. For my next.
• 1:04:46
  No, if you add 2 packs it will be fine.
• 1:04:49
  Actually, probably it's going to be great when when you over
• 1:04:52
  pitch is when you maybe you can over pitch if you actually
• 1:04:57
  grabbing when you reuse yeast, because yeast can grow like 3-5
• 1:05:01
  times. So if let's say a case of over
• 1:05:05
  pitching in a home brew level, let's say some people, which I
• 1:05:08
  think is a little nasty, but some people still like rack the
• 1:05:13
  beer out of the fermenter, leave the the the yeast at the bottom
• 1:05:18
  and then pour some words on top of it.
• 1:05:22
  Then you can over pitch. Because, you know, think about
• 1:05:27
  like you added X amount of yeast to have a good fermentation.
• 1:05:34
  That yeast grew 3 five times. So now you have 3/5 times more
• 1:05:39
  cells and now you add in the same amount of word and maybe
• 1:05:45
  the same gravity. Now you having a lot of you at
• 1:05:49
  home brew level, you might not see a huge, huge problem.
• 1:05:54
  It's mainly for pro breweries when they trying to reuse yeast
• 1:05:58
  and they if they continually over pitch what happened is that
• 1:06:03
  you have so many cells then yeast that's for the amount of
• 1:06:07
  sugars you add in. They don't feel the need to grow
• 1:06:10
  much and they also competing a lot for the nutrients and
• 1:06:14
  they're a bunch of them so they don't grow properly.
• 1:06:17
  So you ended up, if you move it, you using 123 generation, you
• 1:06:22
  ended up with very old cells and no new cells.
• 1:06:24
  So a good balance is that you need a balance of old and new
• 1:06:29
  cells at all times to have great fermentation.
• 1:06:32
  It's like humans, right? And suddenly there's no young
• 1:06:38
  people. All young people disappear and
• 1:06:42
  which is old people, we're not going to last long that's.
• 1:06:45
  Gone. Yeah.
• 1:06:48
  A good balance is good. OK, so but for my yeah for my
• 1:06:51
  thing, if I pitch 2 packets or something.
• 1:06:53
  But when it comes from the labs, you know, you, you, you usually
• 1:06:57
  don't have that much so. Pablo, you might need to visit
• 1:07:00
  Nashville and watch Scott brew some beer sometime.
• 1:07:03
  Maybe you can help me a little nervous.
• 1:07:06
  He could probably throw me some pointers, I'm sure.
• 1:07:10
  Yeah, that would be fun. Oh, we don't want to keep you
• 1:07:13
  forever. I got a couple fun little things
• 1:07:15
  at the end of Steve. Might have something else after
• 1:07:17
  if you wouldn't mind. We'll just go through a couple
• 1:07:18
  quick, quick answer kind of things.
• 1:07:21
  Sure be a little fun. All right.
• 1:07:22
  Any misconceptions about yeast? I think that all yeast is made
• 1:07:29
  the same or all yeast. I think something like bother me
• 1:07:34
  a little bit is over here in a a Brewer one saying, Oh, it
• 1:07:38
  doesn't matter. Yeast is just yeast.
• 1:07:42
  It just produce alcohol and suit you.
• 1:07:44
  And you know, and I think that's that's totally not true, right?
• 1:07:51
  And also how you grow it, right? Like, no wonder we are one of
• 1:07:55
  the best labs in the world because we care of it.
• 1:07:58
  So producing great yeast is not easy.
• 1:08:01
  So that's that's I think it's a misconception about yeast.
• 1:08:05
  Very nice. Have you heard any stories of
• 1:08:08
  people using yeast in a weird way?
• 1:08:12
  No, but some people get grossed out when I tell them.
• 1:08:14
  Then they some Brewers they need to actually taste the yeast to
• 1:08:19
  see if it's still good or not. OK, really you could taste it
• 1:08:22
  and and tell if. It's good, yeah, Yeah.
• 1:08:25
  Scott, my question is, have you? I have tasted yeast.
• 1:08:30
  Yeah, I actually it's crazy. I love the the smell of yeast
• 1:08:35
  and the taste. If it tastes a little fruity, a
• 1:08:39
  little estuary, that's fine. If it's tastes, it's like any
• 1:08:44
  anything, right? If it tastes, doesn't taste good
• 1:08:48
  or tastes a little weird, that's telling you that it's not great.
• 1:08:52
  So OK. So you just learn by by
• 1:08:54
  experience what a good yeast tastes like versus what
• 1:08:57
  something maybe have gone bad. Yeah, Brewers will.
• 1:08:59
  Now it's, it has to still tastes fresh.
• 1:09:03
  Yeah. You, you, you'll know if I put,
• 1:09:05
  if I put in front of you good yeast and not good yeast, and
• 1:09:08
  you taste it, you, you, you, you, you know immediately.
• 1:09:12
  Whatever immediately. OK, 22 quick more, two more
• 1:09:15
  quickly. If yeast strains had
• 1:09:17
  personalities, which which yeast would be the diva and which
• 1:09:21
  would be the rock star? The Diva, well, I think it's
• 1:09:28
  like maybe the English strains might be a little more of a
• 1:09:32
  diva. Just, I don't know, just saying
• 1:09:36
  because they've been forever. But what they have is that they
• 1:09:41
  tend to like consume the sugars and then flocculate.
• 1:09:45
  I'm like, I'm done with this. So that's why usually English
• 1:09:50
  styles of beer, they're accepted to have a little bit of
• 1:09:55
  diastole, right? If you try a pale ale like some
• 1:09:59
  of this famous breweries in England, they have a certain
• 1:10:04
  amount of diethyl and it's fine. And it's because this trains,
• 1:10:09
  they floccolate so hard, like they they ferment and then they
• 1:10:14
  drop and they make like this big amount of dry of yeast and at
• 1:10:20
  the bottom of the tank. And if you don't have like we
• 1:10:24
  were talking before, if you don't have yeast active, go in
• 1:10:27
  there and you have diacetylene the beer.
• 1:10:29
  There's no yeast absorbent. So I think that they become a
• 1:10:31
  little bit diva by like I'm done whenever I want to.
• 1:10:39
  I think the rock star is a Cali, Cali ale is a rock star because
• 1:10:44
  you know, you can make so many different styles of beer.
• 1:10:48
  You can make stouts, you can make porters, blondells, Ipas,
• 1:10:53
  pale ales, amber rails, name it, whatever you want.
• 1:10:57
  You know you can make with a strain and it's so clean and
• 1:11:03
  good and let you know shine the hops and Ipas and stuff.
• 1:11:08
  It's and flocculates the way you should.
• 1:11:12
  You know it's a workhorse, right?
• 1:11:13
  So it's, I think it's, it's an amazing strain.
• 1:11:18
  Making me thirsty there, Pablo, Making me thirsty.
• 1:11:21
  I can appreciate that. I think one of the first white
• 1:11:23
  labs or first kits I ever bought, it had the white labs in
• 1:11:26
  it. It was the California L strain
• 1:11:29
  for. Still is the number one strain
• 1:11:31
  we ever start producing and also still our number one selling
• 1:11:36
  strain, so. Nice, I got one last one.
• 1:11:39
  What yeast strain would survive in apocalypse?
• 1:11:45
  It depends what type of apocalypse there's going to be.
• 1:11:47
  No oxygen, no nothing. Maybe only.
• 1:11:50
  Bacteria, probably. Maybe like a zombie apocalypse?
• 1:11:54
  Oh, it's probably all the easy. Well, not, not the brew.
• 1:11:58
  The brewer's cheese going to be everything.
• 1:12:00
  If all the labs, everything exploded, all the there's no
• 1:12:04
  beer or anything around. Probably brewer's cheese.
• 1:12:06
  As I said, they won't. They won't survive.
• 1:12:10
  Maybe if you're talking about brewer's cheese, maybe Belgium
• 1:12:17
  strains might be able to survive because it's still Belgium
• 1:12:21
  strains are very interesting. They if you see the tree of life
• 1:12:27
  in yeast, they're the closest one to wild yeast.
• 1:12:31
  And that's the reason they still produce phenols, because yeast
• 1:12:34
  need to produce like any, any yeast in the wild will produce
• 1:12:38
  phenols, phenols that are a way for them to survive in the wild.
• 1:12:43
  When they produces phenols, they kind of keep away other
• 1:12:46
  microorganisms fighting for their food or, or, or nutrients.
• 1:12:53
  But brewersies, because we adapted for so many, many, many
• 1:12:57
  years, they lost the treat of making phenols.
• 1:13:01
  And we like them because of that.
• 1:13:03
  Otherwise all the beers were like phenolic, but not having
• 1:13:07
  the that, that attribute of making phenols.
• 1:13:09
  They will, let's say the cryogenic freezes breaks in the
• 1:13:13
  apocalypses and they, they're free.
• 1:13:16
  They they're not going to last very long.
• 1:13:19
  They can't live in the wild. Yeah, the the bread
• 1:13:22
  breadthanomyces will survive, OK, even though they're in from
• 1:13:26
  a lab that that will survive. Bacteria will survive.
• 1:13:29
  But they they have to start the the beer brewing process all
• 1:13:32
  over again. Yeah, the wild.
• 1:13:36
  Maybe they'll like start like domesticating us.
• 1:13:40
  Yeah, kind of like a it'd. Be a hell of a sci-fi movie.
• 1:13:46
  The dinosaurs, humans and then the east East taking.
• 1:13:52
  Over. They'd have to grow quite a bit,
• 1:13:53
  but they could do it. Steve, what else have you got
• 1:13:57
  for Pablo? I just got one other question.
• 1:14:01
  Has the fermentation process of what you all have done?
• 1:14:04
  Is there a beer that maybe you didn't weren't really high on
• 1:14:08
  before that you are now because of what you all do, a beer
• 1:14:13
  style? A beer style.
• 1:14:17
  No, I think it's like, I think what's important is like, and it
• 1:14:21
  comes also together. We were talking about
• 1:14:25
  importance, importance of strains.
• 1:14:28
  I go sometimes to breweries and you know, and I get it,
• 1:14:31
  sometimes they can't really use so many different types of
• 1:14:36
  strains, right? It's expensive or they don't
• 1:14:39
  have the program to like reuse it and stuff.
• 1:14:42
  So sometimes I got Brewers who like, oh, try my Colch or try my
• 1:14:49
  half of ice and but I don't make it with a Colch strain or half
• 1:14:54
  of ice and strain. And there might not be a bad
• 1:14:58
  beer. That might be fine, but it's not
• 1:15:00
  a coach. It's not 1/2 of ice.
• 1:15:03
  So I think you might get away with some other styles, right.
• 1:15:08
  But if you want a coach, you want a half of ice and same as
• 1:15:12
  like it's not the same an English Porter than American
• 1:15:16
  Porter and basically the difference.
• 1:15:19
  Yeah, you can use hops, English hops or American hops, but if
• 1:15:26
  you use the wrong use for an English Porter, use an American
• 1:15:30
  for an English, you can tell that's one of the tests you do
• 1:15:33
  in a BJCP judge. And that's one of the tests,
• 1:15:37
  right? Like they serve your beer and
• 1:15:42
  they you don't know what it is and, and they ask you is a
• 1:15:48
  Porter, is a, is a English Porter, is an American Porter.
• 1:15:52
  You have to kind of like know the difference, right?
• 1:15:54
  And that that comes in the and they're basically yes, you can
• 1:15:58
  maybe notice some attributes from the heart, but mainly I
• 1:16:02
  listen my in my my opinion, I can tell like, oh, this is a
• 1:16:07
  little more estuary. I can maybe had a little hint of
• 1:16:10
  maybe diacetyl. This might be in English or
• 1:16:12
  super clean. I can sense more like the hops
• 1:16:17
  and stuff. This must be in American.
• 1:16:19
  So I think that that fact of like when you actually you make
• 1:16:25
  a style, but when you use the right strain for the style, it's
• 1:16:30
  a huge difference. Just having that talent, just
• 1:16:33
  having that skill of being able to do that, I know it comes with
• 1:16:35
  experience and training and stuff.
• 1:16:37
  Oh yeah, it still blows my mind. No one, I'm telling you, I was
• 1:16:41
  like I regret it. I I I really, if I got have to
• 1:16:45
  go through all that again, I won't do it, but because you
• 1:16:50
  know, but it's, it's amazing. You like at one point you like,
• 1:16:55
  no, it does not for me. Probably I'm not good at it and
• 1:17:00
  it's it's not true. Anyone can do it.
• 1:17:03
  It's just difficult. You don't have to learn new
• 1:17:05
  thing. You have to like.
• 1:17:06
  But I think out of all that, what I'm more proud and it was
• 1:17:12
  part of the thing, you know, more of like identifying, which
• 1:17:15
  is kind of cool. If you can identify enough
• 1:17:18
  flavor and say, oh, this has this, this has that.
• 1:17:20
  It's amazing. But in my opinion, what if I if
• 1:17:26
  I have to choose something that from all that training and stuff
• 1:17:30
  and also been a lot drinking a lot of beer for many years and
• 1:17:35
  working in the industry. It's like the fact that I can
• 1:17:38
  tell between a good beer and a bad beer.
• 1:17:41
  And that's for me, it's the main.
• 1:17:43
  If I have to choose one of the attributes, it's that.
• 1:17:46
  And because there's nothing worse than a Brewer who doesn't
• 1:17:56
  or doesn't get the difference between a good and a bad beer.
• 1:18:00
  I think it's, it's so important, right?
• 1:18:02
  Like if you want to call yourself a Brewer, that's it's
• 1:18:07
  as important as knowing how to make word or for man and stuff.
• 1:18:12
  You know, you, you, you know, if you blind to anything, you don't
• 1:18:15
  know the difference between a great beer and a suburb beer,
• 1:18:20
  that's that's sad because you, you can't do anything about it,
• 1:18:23
  right? You can't really work on it and
• 1:18:26
  make it better. I think that's a amazing or like
• 1:18:29
  very important attribute a good Brewer should have.
• 1:18:33
  That could be tap lines, that could be not proper clean
• 1:18:37
  glassware. Even those could be many.
• 1:18:38
  Things could be many things, but at the end of the day, you know,
• 1:18:43
  like as a Brewer, you should be able to say, well, this is not
• 1:18:50
  as good as I should be. And maybe when you don't say it
• 1:18:53
  or whatever, you work on it. But I think that's, that's
• 1:18:57
  important. You have to understand it's,
• 1:18:59
  it's, it's a matter of like caring for the industry, right?
• 1:19:03
  Because you are the, the brewery who all the locals are going to
• 1:19:08
  and drink. And if you're making bad beer
• 1:19:10
  and you don't know you're making a bad beer.
• 1:19:13
  Now all the locals think that craft beer tastes like that.
• 1:19:18
  And that's kind of sad, right? And, and, and what is funny is
• 1:19:25
  like they might be doing great business because people don't
• 1:19:29
  know and they they like what they like.
• 1:19:31
  So this is kind of funny. Maybe to close the the the the
• 1:19:35
  show of the episode is like I got a Brewer who told me once
• 1:19:39
  it's like the importance of beer and a good business and a
• 1:19:43
  brewery is like being consistent, consistently good or
• 1:19:46
  consistently bad, but being consistent because if you start
• 1:19:52
  changing things, people will now come to tap room.
• 1:19:54
  I'm like, OK, great. Why is it different?
• 1:19:58
  Either to either way, right? Why is it different?
• 1:20:02
  Oh man, awesome. I I think it's a good end
• 1:20:04
  though, and I'm going to raise my beer.
• 1:20:07
  Yeah, on. Good beer, have a beer.
• 1:20:10
  But cheers, that's OK. That's OK.
• 1:20:12
  No, Pablo, you know you started out tremendous and very
• 1:20:16
  educational everything that you walked us through today.
• 1:20:19
  And I think the end point of that just sums it up perfectly.
• 1:20:23
  Awesome. Well, thank you.
• 1:20:25
  Hopefully, hopefully somebody's learned something from this.
• 1:20:27
  I know we did. And back to the top of the
• 1:20:29
  episodes, like we try to try to inform you.
• 1:20:31
  You did a fantastic job of doing that, Pablo.
• 1:20:34
  Awesome. Thank you very much for the
• 1:20:36
  invitation. And yeah, next time I'm in
• 1:20:39
  Nashville, I'll I'll let we'll have we'll go for for a few
• 1:20:44
  beers. Appreciate it.
• 1:20:45
  Yeah. Go get good beer.
• 1:20:46
  Exactly. Thanks.
• 1:20:47
  Pablo Brew the Underground podcast.
• 1:20:49
  Thank. You bye, bye.
• 1:20:51
  Cheers. Cheers.
• 1:21:25
  Yeah.