Latest / Free Therapy with Ben & Kevin / How confident men show up in relationships | Aliza Shapiro #20

Transcript

How confident men show up in relationships | Aliza Shapiro #20 · Free Therapy with Ben & Kevin

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: The world needs free therapy. Yo, what's up Kev?
• 0:03
  Speaker 2: What's up Benny?
• 0:04
  Speaker 1: How you doing?
• 0:05
  Speaker 2: Amazing and excited for this week's episode. Every week we
• 0:08
  Speaker 2: sit down with the different therapists to talk about the
• 0:10
  Speaker 2: stuff that everyone's struggling with but no one says out
• 0:13
  Speaker 2: loud and this week We sat down with Aliza Shapiro,
• 0:16
  Speaker 2: who has so beautifully shared so much information, valuable information
• 0:21
  Speaker 2: around therapy, relationships, dating through her page Therapist in NYC.
• 0:25
  Speaker 1: Yeah, she's amazing. This conversation really gets us into a
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: question we've all wondered at some point and talking about
• 0:30
  Speaker 1: a lot is what are the most attractive qualities in
• 0:33
  Speaker 1: a man today?
• 0:34
  Speaker 2: Yeah, we get into what women actually want from a partner.
• 0:38
  Speaker 2: how the expectations around relationships have changed without anyone really
• 0:42
  Speaker 2: being told what those new expectations are and what it
• 0:44
  Speaker 2: really means to show up as a man in a
• 0:46
  Speaker 2: modern relationship.
• 0:47
  Speaker 1: Yeah. So we get into dating anxiety and why so
• 0:50
  Speaker 1: many of us overthink our relationships, whether we're trying to
• 0:53
  Speaker 1: figure out if someone's right for us, wondering if we're
• 0:55
  Speaker 1: asking for too much or just questioning our own instincts. Yeah.
• 0:59
  Speaker 2: And Elisa really breaks down why we can get stuck
• 1:01
  Speaker 2: in these patterns and how anxiety affects the way we
• 1:04
  Speaker 2: date and connect. or what makes someone genuinely attractive, or
• 1:07
  Speaker 2: how we can build better, healthy relationships, this is the
• 1:12
  Speaker 2: episode for you. Let's get into it. Aliza Shapiro, welcome
• 1:34
  Speaker 2: to Free Therapy.
• 1:35
  Speaker 3: Thank you for having me. I'm so excited for this conversation.
• 1:38
  Speaker 1: Welcome, welcome.
• 1:39
  Speaker 2: We are too, I know. We've both seen your work
• 1:42
  Speaker 2: for years through your page, Therapist at NYC, and have
• 1:45
  Speaker 2: really loved and appreciated it. I think you have such
• 1:49
  Speaker 2: a good pulse on our generation's struggles and hopes and
• 1:56
  Speaker 2: wishes and journey and you communicate it so beautifully through
• 2:01
  Speaker 2: the therapeutic lens. Thank you. Yeah, I really believe that.
• 2:04
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I agree.
• 2:05
  Speaker 2: All the content. And even this week, having gone much
• 2:08
  Speaker 2: deeper into your content, I just appreciate and love it. Congratulations.
• 2:12
  Speaker 3: Thank you.
• 2:13
  Speaker 2: Because I think you build amazing community. People love you.
• 2:15
  Speaker 2: And you're also just really great at translating really dense
• 2:20
  Speaker 2: things into digestible concepts.
• 2:24
  Speaker 3: The goal has always been to normalize conversations around mental health.
• 2:27
  Speaker 3: and make them accessible to everybody. And I feel like
• 2:30
  Speaker 3: that's what you guys are here to do too. So
• 2:31
  Speaker 3: this felt very aligned. And that Instagram page, I cosplay
• 2:36
  Speaker 3: as a therapist, but really I'm just a human having
• 2:38
  Speaker 3: my own human experience. And the things that I'm going
• 2:41
  Speaker 3: through and the things that I'm learning, part of the
• 2:44
  Speaker 3: way I make meaning out of my own struggles is
• 2:47
  Speaker 3: to turn them into something that everybody can grow from.
• 2:49
  Speaker 3: So that's really what the page has become for me.
• 2:52
  Speaker 3: So when anybody tells me that it resonates or that
• 2:54
  Speaker 3: hits home or it helps them in any way of
• 2:55
  Speaker 3: their life. It's like the most magical thing I could hear.
• 2:58
  Speaker 2: Amazing. I love that. Something that we talk about a
• 3:00
  Speaker 2: lot is how like the goalposts of what it means
• 3:05
  Speaker 2: to be a good partner and a man has changed.
• 3:09
  Speaker 2: Like our generation was kind of raised by the generation
• 3:12
  Speaker 2: before us, our parents' generation, which was like, get a
• 3:15
  Speaker 2: great job, make a lot of money and you'll find
• 3:19
  Speaker 2: a partner and it'll be fine. You're going to be
• 3:21
  Speaker 2: enough and life will be great. And you'll ride it
• 3:24
  Speaker 2: out into the sunset. But it's changed.
• 3:26
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 3:27
  Speaker 2: Like pretty dramatically now where the desires of what women
• 3:31
  Speaker 2: want in men have changed. What do you think in
• 3:33
  Speaker 2: today's society are the most attractive qualities in a man?
• 3:37
  Speaker 3: I love this question, but I also love the buildup
• 3:39
  Speaker 3: of this question because you're right. Things have changed. I
• 3:42
  Speaker 3: think back in our parents' generation and our grandparents' generation,
• 3:45
  Speaker 3: resources were much more scarce in a certain way. So
• 3:49
  Speaker 3: men needed to provide and women needed to survive. So-
• 3:54
  Speaker 3: We didn't have equal pay. We weren't able to have
• 3:56
  Speaker 3: the same jobs and everything of that nature. So we
• 3:59
  Speaker 3: had to lean on a man financially to build a family.
• 4:01
  Speaker 3: We had to lean on a man for our basic security.
• 4:05
  Speaker 3: And that's what we needed. And that's kind of what
• 4:07
  Speaker 3: we expected. And now we're in this new generation where
• 4:10
  Speaker 3: women are just as successful as men, sometimes even more
• 4:13
  Speaker 3: successful than their male partners. And we don't necessarily need
• 4:16
  Speaker 3: that same financial security the way we once did. So
• 4:19
  Speaker 3: instead of just saying, okay, I need a man to
• 4:21
  Speaker 3: like put a roof over my head and that's it.
• 4:23
  Speaker 3: We're like, I want a man who's ambitious and successful,
• 4:26
  Speaker 3: but also emotionally available. And also who's going to support
• 4:28
  Speaker 3: my dreams. And like, you're right. The list has gotten longer.
• 4:31
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 4:32
  Speaker 3: I think relationships have gotten deeper as a result. But
• 4:34
  Speaker 3: to your point, the list has definitely gotten longer.
• 4:36
  Speaker 2: It's a great point. Relationships actually are able to have
• 4:39
  Speaker 2: a depth that maybe a lot didn't. For sure.
• 4:43
  Speaker 1: And maybe men are now figuring out, wait, I have
• 4:45
  Speaker 1: to show up differently and make that relationship flourish for
• 4:48
  Speaker 1: before they can get away with things maybe they weren't
• 4:49
  Speaker 1: able to get away with.
• 4:51
  Speaker 3: A thousand percent. Because they were laser focused on the
• 4:53
  Speaker 3: one thing that they needed to provide. And now I
• 4:56
  Speaker 3: think men are being asked to provide more in terms
• 4:59
  Speaker 3: of the emotional security and attentiveness and all the other things.
• 5:03
  Speaker 1: So where do the most attractive qualities fall if once
• 5:05
  Speaker 1: what it was to provide, whether it was financial or physical,
• 5:10
  Speaker 1: now it seems like there are a handful more. Do
• 5:13
  Speaker 1: those new qualities, are they more attractive to women? Are
• 5:16
  Speaker 1: they equal now? Where is the, in your practice, what
• 5:19
  Speaker 1: have you seen the pendulum swing?
• 5:23
  Speaker 3: So first of all, I'm going to say a lot
• 5:24
  Speaker 3: of sweeping generalizations today. So I think that just want
• 5:28
  Speaker 3: to make a disclaimer for anybody listening that I'm just
• 5:31
  Speaker 3: speaking about my experience and what I've seen in certain
• 5:34
  Speaker 3: relationship dynamics. It doesn't mean every man is the same.
• 5:36
  Speaker 3: It doesn't mean every woman is the same. It doesn't
• 5:38
  Speaker 3: mean every relationship has these same dynamics. But what I've
• 5:42
  Speaker 3: seen the most in my work with, honestly, women and
• 5:46
  Speaker 3: men individually, but also couples that have kind of crossed
• 5:48
  Speaker 3: through my doors over time, I think What has remained
• 5:53
  Speaker 3: is that women really are attracted to a man who's,
• 5:55
  Speaker 3: I would say, like self-sufficient, knows who he is, knows
• 6:00
  Speaker 3: what he wants, knows what he's contributing to himself and
• 6:02
  Speaker 3: the world, even if he's not there yet, even if
• 6:04
  Speaker 3: he's at the very beginning of his journey financially or
• 6:07
  Speaker 3: in his own personal development. A man who kind of
• 6:09
  Speaker 3: knows who he is and what he wants is, I think,
• 6:11
  Speaker 3: still a very attractive trait. I think women also really
• 6:15
  Speaker 3: have learned to love consistency. Men showing up in consistent
• 6:21
  Speaker 3: ways not a one trick pony, you know, or a
• 6:24
  Speaker 3: one hit wonder. And they swept me off my feet
• 6:26
  Speaker 3: this month and now they're not here anymore. The lack
• 6:29
  Speaker 3: of that trait causes women to have to kind of
• 6:31
  Speaker 3: move into their masculine. If I can't trust this person
• 6:34
  Speaker 3: to keep showing up in the same way, then I
• 6:35
  Speaker 3: have to, and I have another thing on my mental load.
• 6:38
  Speaker 3: So I would say that's another really important trait.
• 6:39
  Speaker 2: So the first one was?
• 6:41
  Speaker 3: Self-sufficiency, knowing who you are.
• 6:43
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's great.
• 6:44
  Speaker 3: Second one, consistency.
• 6:46
  Speaker 2: Can you double click on, you said self-sufficiency and knowing
• 6:50
  Speaker 2: who you are. And even if you're early in your
• 6:52
  Speaker 2: career and you're maybe not where you want to be,
• 6:55
  Speaker 2: which I think is a big one for men, a
• 6:57
  Speaker 2: big one for me over my life.
• 6:59
  Speaker 4: Yeah, me too.
• 7:00
  Speaker 2: And it's like, you have this ambition, you have this
• 7:02
  Speaker 2: desire for this life. And maybe you're not where you
• 7:06
  Speaker 2: want to be when you have three kids and the
• 7:09
  Speaker 2: house and the ability to do all things you want.
• 7:13
  Speaker 2: And so what can a man do to show up
• 7:18
  Speaker 2: for his partner in a self-sufficient provider way, maybe before
• 7:23
  Speaker 2: he's there in terms of the life he actually has.
• 7:27
  Speaker 3: For sure. And I think that goes right into the
• 7:28
  Speaker 3: consistency part. If a woman sees her man grinding and
• 7:31
  Speaker 3: is like, I'm at work at 8 a.m. or whatever
• 7:36
  Speaker 3: it is that he's doing, I'm putting in the hours,
• 7:38
  Speaker 3: I'm putting in the reps. I don't know where this
• 7:40
  Speaker 3: thing is going to take me, but I'm really trying
• 7:42
  Speaker 3: and I'm putting my whole self into it. It's all
• 7:44
  Speaker 3: about the energy. The results are never in our hands
• 7:47
  Speaker 3: and life always changes. So even if a person is
• 7:50
  Speaker 3: making X amount one year, you don't know what the
• 7:52
  Speaker 3: next year is going to bring. And I think for
• 7:54
  Speaker 3: all people in general, we can feel somebody's energy. We
• 7:57
  Speaker 3: can feel the intent behind the action. So if there's
• 7:59
  Speaker 3: somebody who's really putting in the work and putting in
• 8:01
  Speaker 3: the reps to get to where they're trying to go,
• 8:04
  Speaker 3: it doesn't matter if you're in year one or year five.
• 8:07
  Speaker 3: I'll believe in you if I see that you're doing
• 8:08
  Speaker 3: the work and I'll know that you're going to get there.
• 8:11
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 8:12
  Speaker 3: So I don't think that a man has to be there.
• 8:14
  Speaker 3: I think that a woman kind of sees that and
• 8:16
  Speaker 3: feels that. And if she does feel that, she's going
• 8:19
  Speaker 3: to be in his corner no matter what.
• 8:21
  Speaker 2: Love that.
• 8:22
  Speaker 1: Okay, so if we do those two qualities, which were...
• 8:24
  Speaker 1: First one was.
• 8:25
  Speaker 2: Self-sufficiency.
• 8:25
  Speaker 1: Second one is consistency.
• 8:27
  Speaker 3: I thought of the third.
• 8:27
  Speaker 1: Yeah, go for it. Yeah, it's good.
• 8:29
  Speaker 2: Keep going.
• 8:31
  Speaker 3: I think the third, and I'm going to use a
• 8:33
  Speaker 3: couple words, but I think it's somewhere in the realm
• 8:36
  Speaker 3: of ambitious and ability to grow. Flexibly.
• 8:42
  Speaker 2: Meaning.
• 8:42
  Speaker 3: I think that it is a very attractive trait for
• 8:45
  Speaker 3: a man to be able to say, here's where I
• 8:48
  Speaker 3: am and here's where I want to be, but not
• 8:49
  Speaker 3: just with work. Also within a relationship, also within their
• 8:54
  Speaker 3: own self-awareness, their own personal growth. I think somebody that's
• 8:59
  Speaker 3: extremely stagnant and just, this is it, this is who
• 9:02
  Speaker 3: I am and that's it, is not the same as
• 9:04
  Speaker 3: saying like, I know who I am and I believe
• 9:06
  Speaker 3: in who I am and I have an ambition and
• 9:08
  Speaker 3: a willingness to grow flexibly beyond what I already am
• 9:12
  Speaker 3: right now.
• 9:13
  Speaker 1: That is tough, right? As a guy, you really have
• 9:15
  Speaker 1: some thing you're set about your ways and admitting that
• 9:19
  Speaker 1: you need to change those maybe feels vulnerable, especially in
• 9:22
  Speaker 1: a relationship with a woman where you're perceived as the stronger, confident, right?
• 9:27
  Speaker 1: So you're admitting that you need to change is actually
• 9:29
  Speaker 1: letting your partner know that there's some weakness.
• 9:31
  Speaker 2: It's an interesting thing though. I think there's, I think
• 9:34
  Speaker 2: both can live at the same time. You can love
• 9:37
  Speaker 2: who you are, be confident in who you are and
• 9:39
  Speaker 2: the life that you've built for yourself. And- Be curious
• 9:43
  Speaker 2: and want to grow and have that ambition of personal
• 9:47
  Speaker 2: development and growth in your life.
• 9:48
  Speaker 1: But I think a man admitting that is the problem.
• 9:50
  Speaker 1: I don't think men jump into a relationship and be like, oh,
• 9:54
  Speaker 1: this is an area you need to grow emotionally without
• 9:57
  Speaker 1: it being a problem first. Yeah. Right?
• 9:59
  Speaker 2: Sure.
• 10:00
  Speaker 1: Making the man aware of the problem emotionally that he
• 10:02
  Speaker 1: needs to fix? His girl.
• 10:03
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 10:03
  Speaker 1: And the girl says something's wrong with you and you go.
• 10:06
  Speaker 3: There's something wrong with you.
• 10:07
  Speaker 1: You're out. Exactly. Exactly. Right. So like that, that that
• 10:11
  Speaker 1: flexibility that you're talking about is in that friction of
• 10:13
  Speaker 1: that moment where, you know, most men aren't coming into
• 10:17
  Speaker 1: a relationship. wanting to change a lot about themselves. But
• 10:21
  Speaker 1: I think most men should look at it like the
• 10:23
  Speaker 1: right relationship will make you grow into the man that
• 10:24
  Speaker 1: you need to be. Yeah.
• 10:26
  Speaker 2: Yeah, totally.
• 10:27
  Speaker 3: But to your point, it takes an extraordinarily confident man
• 10:30
  Speaker 3: to be able to say, I know who I am
• 10:33
  Speaker 3: and I have the humility to say, if there's something
• 10:36
  Speaker 3: that I need to do to evolve and to perfect
• 10:38
  Speaker 3: myself even more, I'm willing to do that. That doesn't
• 10:40
  Speaker 3: scare me.
• 10:42
  Speaker 1: It's so funny. You notice that I have friends in
• 10:44
  Speaker 1: business who are so good at a mentor or a
• 10:46
  Speaker 1: boss being like, that's what you're not doing well. If
• 10:49
  Speaker 1: you want to be a leader of this company one day,
• 10:50
  Speaker 1: you have to change that. And they go, fuck yeah.
• 10:52
  Speaker 1: I'm going to change that because I get more power,
• 10:54
  Speaker 1: more money, more success. In a relationship, they take it as,
• 10:59
  Speaker 1: that hurt my feelings. I don't like that feeling. Blame. Yeah.
• 11:03
  Speaker 2: Really interesting comparison.
• 11:04
  Speaker 1: Right?
• 11:04
  Speaker 2: Take it the same way you would in business.
• 11:06
  Speaker 3: I also think that people don't necessarily see the value
• 11:08
  Speaker 3: of in growing in a relationship context.
• 11:12
  Speaker 1: Why?
• 11:13
  Speaker 3: If I have a startup and I have a mentor
• 11:15
  Speaker 3: and they're saying, hey, Lisa, you need to change this
• 11:17
  Speaker 3: about yourself so that you can 10X your business. Immediately,
• 11:20
  Speaker 3: I'm going to say, great, I want to 10X my business.
• 11:22
  Speaker 3: I'll go change that about myself. But let's say you
• 11:25
  Speaker 3: have a partner that's saying, when you talk to me
• 11:28
  Speaker 3: that way, I really shut down and I can't handle it.
• 11:31
  Speaker 3: So it's going to make me want to crawl into
• 11:32
  Speaker 3: a hole and not talk to you for three weeks.
• 11:34
  Speaker 3: What's the upside for that? Like, okay, that's your problem
• 11:37
  Speaker 3: to fix, right? A guy doesn't necessarily hear that and say,
• 11:40
  Speaker 3: She's giving me wisdom that's going to change my life
• 11:43
  Speaker 3: exponentially and is going to help me 10x in my
• 11:47
  Speaker 3: relationship satisfaction. By the way, even in my business partnerships,
• 11:52
  Speaker 3: I think that men look at that as like, okay,
• 11:54
  Speaker 3: that's like your problem. I'm like good with the relationship
• 11:56
  Speaker 3: that I have. I don't need to change it and
• 11:58
  Speaker 3: aren't necessarily seeing the intrinsic value of the personal growth
• 12:02
  Speaker 3: that happens in the context of relationship. Does that make sense?
• 12:05
  Speaker 1: Totally. Totally. I don't think that men see... the upside
• 12:09
  Speaker 1: in fixing themselves in a relationship. They would see it
• 12:11
  Speaker 1: in a business because men, some guy said it a
• 12:13
  Speaker 1: couple of weeks ago, he was like, men are more
• 12:15
  Speaker 1: better at tangible outcomes. Money is a tangible outcome. Growth
• 12:18
  Speaker 1: in a relationship feels less tangible. But like if you,
• 12:21
  Speaker 1: maybe if you change the frame of what you're getting
• 12:24
  Speaker 1: from the relationship, which is more emotional or personal growth,
• 12:27
  Speaker 1: which will help you in a bunch of other areas.
• 12:29
  Speaker 1: But I don't really think that's like, it's hard to
• 12:31
  Speaker 1: even explain that really, because there is no like tangible
• 12:33
  Speaker 1: outcome there. Yeah.
• 12:35
  Speaker 2: I think part of it also helps when you really
• 12:37
  Speaker 2: respect your partner's perspective. Like what you're describing to me
• 12:42
  Speaker 2: makes total sense. And I agree with, if my girlfriend's
• 12:46
  Speaker 2: going like, hey, I think this is somewhere you can
• 12:48
  Speaker 2: really grow. I'm like, oh shit, cool. Thank you. I
• 12:53
  Speaker 2: didn't have that perspective.
• 12:55
  Speaker 3: That makes you a very confident man. Yeah, but- I
• 12:59
  Speaker 3: don't know if all men have that.
• 13:00
  Speaker 2: Yeah, but what is it that prevents men from having
• 13:02
  Speaker 2: that perspective? Is it that you feel like you're being attacked?
• 13:06
  Speaker 2: Like how does an immature and unhealed man respond to feedback? Yeah.
• 13:11
  Speaker 2: And how does a healed mature man respond to feedback
• 13:15
  Speaker 2: from his girlfriend or wife?
• 13:18
  Speaker 3: I think an unhealed man responds to it as this
• 13:21
  Speaker 3: is a criticism about me and who I am. This
• 13:25
  Speaker 3: makes me wrong. This makes me imperfect. I'm not getting
• 13:29
  Speaker 3: that tangible thing at the end of the day. I'm
• 13:32
  Speaker 3: not bringing home the paycheck. I'm not making my wife
• 13:34
  Speaker 3: or girlfriend happy. So I am inherently wrong or bad
• 13:38
  Speaker 3: or broken. And I think a healed person or somebody
• 13:42
  Speaker 3: who's farther along on their healing journey sees that as, oh,
• 13:46
  Speaker 3: I'm already great and I know that I'm great. I
• 13:47
  Speaker 3: want to grow more. I'm going to take that feedback
• 13:50
  Speaker 3: as something that I can do to evolve even to
• 13:52
  Speaker 3: an even better version of myself.
• 13:53
  Speaker 1: Okay.
• 13:53
  Speaker 2: So you have, you're in this relationship and your girlfriend
• 13:57
  Speaker 2: tells you, gives you some feedback.
• 13:58
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 13:59
  Speaker 2: You have the awareness now. You've listened to this and
• 14:01
  Speaker 2: you go, oh shit, I'm taking this personally as criticism.
• 14:03
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 14:04
  Speaker 2: Is there something you can share? with your partner, maybe like, hey,
• 14:08
  Speaker 2: I'm noticing, right? I want to receive this, but I'm
• 14:12
  Speaker 2: noticing that I'm taking this as criticism of who I
• 14:15
  Speaker 2: am and feeling like maybe you actually, like I'm making
• 14:18
  Speaker 2: up a story. Yeah. Another therapist had a great line,
• 14:21
  Speaker 2: the story I'm telling myself.
• 14:23
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 14:23
  Speaker 2: Right. Is that what you, how would you help that
• 14:25
  Speaker 2: guy not take that critically?
• 14:28
  Speaker 3: So a guy needs to have a lot of self-awareness
• 14:29
  Speaker 3: as well. He needs to even know that that's the
• 14:31
  Speaker 3: story that's getting encoded in his system when somebody gives
• 14:34
  Speaker 3: him feedback or criticism so that's already one step if
• 14:37
  Speaker 3: you don't have that mindful awareness it's game over that's
• 14:40
  Speaker 3: why every man and every woman i think needs to
• 14:42
  Speaker 3: be in therapy if they're in a functional relationship because
• 14:45
  Speaker 3: if not it's gonna it's gonna go down the tubes
• 14:48
  Speaker 3: real quick because she's just gonna be talking about her
• 14:51
  Speaker 3: day and then you're gonna take it like you're the
• 14:53
  Speaker 3: worst human being alive and she's just saying i'm having
• 14:55
  Speaker 3: a lot of emotions because she's a process-oriented being in
• 14:58
  Speaker 3: your hearing i'm not doing well enough because you're a
• 15:00
  Speaker 3: result-oriented human being right so i think Everybody needs to
• 15:04
  Speaker 3: have that mindful awareness first. And then, yeah, the way
• 15:06
  Speaker 3: that it's communicated back is so important. Either I need
• 15:10
  Speaker 3: a minute or I really care about what you're saying,
• 15:12
  Speaker 3: but it's just not, I'm not digesting it the way
• 15:14
  Speaker 3: that I think would be most helpful. So there are
• 15:16
  Speaker 3: ways to communicate that back, but also kind of to
• 15:18
  Speaker 3: turn it on the other side. I think women need
• 15:20
  Speaker 3: to learn how to communicate their needs and how to
• 15:23
  Speaker 3: communicate their feelings and their whirlwind of emotions that are
• 15:27
  Speaker 3: so beautiful and that make people so feminine and so
• 15:30
  Speaker 3: powerful in a way that does not result in in
• 15:33
  Speaker 3: their partner feeling criticized. I think it's a two-way street.
• 15:36
  Speaker 1: I think men take criticism as I did something wrong.
• 15:42
  Speaker 1: And I think men need to remind themselves that just
• 15:44
  Speaker 1: because you get criticism doesn't mean it's a bad behavior. Yeah.
• 15:47
  Speaker 1: Because I think a lot of the time you're like,
• 15:48
  Speaker 1: I did something and the guy's like, she goes, I
• 15:50
  Speaker 1: don't like that you did that. That's just like a
• 15:52
  Speaker 1: boundary she's putting up or something she is saying that
• 15:55
  Speaker 1: might doesn't work for her. It's not like I'm a
• 15:57
  Speaker 1: bad person or I'm not going to make this relationship
• 16:01
  Speaker 1: work because I think men get like, start to point
• 16:04
  Speaker 1: the finger when they get a bad feeling. And I
• 16:06
  Speaker 1: used to do that. I used to, someone was, oh,
• 16:08
  Speaker 1: I did something wrong with a bad person. It's like, no,
• 16:10
  Speaker 1: this person and you are trying to work something out
• 16:12
  Speaker 1: in the dynamic and that criticism, don't take it so personal.
• 16:15
  Speaker 1: Just take it as an opportunity to learn about your
• 16:17
  Speaker 1: partner's needs better and take a step back and just
• 16:20
  Speaker 1: be like, okay, cool, I'm good. And I think that's
• 16:22
  Speaker 1: like a tangible thing.
• 16:25
  Speaker 3: I think you actually just hit the nail on the
• 16:26
  Speaker 3: head maybe with the most important part of this conversation.
• 16:28
  Speaker 1: Sure.
• 16:29
  Speaker 3: Which is one partner- giving feedback about their experience of
• 16:33
  Speaker 3: a relationship doesn't mean the partner is doing anything wrong.
• 16:37
  Speaker 3: Even if they say, you came home late, that doesn't
• 16:40
  Speaker 3: mean inherently that he did anything wrong. That means she
• 16:45
  Speaker 3: had an experience of that moment that felt a certain
• 16:49
  Speaker 3: way for her, and she's expressing it to you so
• 16:51
  Speaker 3: that you can be let into her inner world. Now,
• 16:54
  Speaker 3: what you want to do with that information will change
• 16:56
  Speaker 3: the trajectory of your relationship to becoming closer or farther
• 16:59
  Speaker 3: from her But inherently, it doesn't mean that you've done
• 17:02
  Speaker 3: anything wrong. You have as much validity as she does.
• 17:07
  Speaker 3: And we talk a lot about, in the therapy that
• 17:09
  Speaker 3: I do, the concept of dialectics, which is two opposing
• 17:12
  Speaker 3: truths that can exist at the exact same time.
• 17:15
  Speaker 2: So big.
• 17:15
  Speaker 1: Right?
• 17:16
  Speaker 3: If I'm holding up a paper and my side of
• 17:18
  Speaker 3: the paper is white, but your side of the paper
• 17:20
  Speaker 3: is black, and you say to us, what color is
• 17:22
  Speaker 3: the paper? Who's right?
• 17:24
  Speaker 1: Both.
• 17:25
  Speaker 3: We're both right. But we give different answers. We give
• 17:27
  Speaker 3: opposite answers. Yeah. But it doesn't mean that my viewpoint
• 17:30
  Speaker 3: discounts yours or that yours discounts mine. We're both equally correct.
• 17:34
  Speaker 3: We both have a kernel of truth in what our
• 17:36
  Speaker 3: experience is. And then this like third party observer is saying,
• 17:40
  Speaker 3: you're actually both valid and you both hold a really
• 17:43
  Speaker 3: important perspective here.
• 17:45
  Speaker 1: I had a friend last week, I was talking to
• 17:47
  Speaker 1: him about relationships. And he goes, the mistake I made
• 17:50
  Speaker 1: early on in my first relationship was assuming that because
• 17:53
  Speaker 1: I preferred one style of communication. It was the right way.
• 17:56
  Speaker 1: There are so many different styles. And for you to
• 17:57
  Speaker 1: just go in thinking that yours is the right way
• 17:59
  Speaker 1: versus what someone else, and then you're wrong, making that
• 18:01
  Speaker 1: assumption is actually the issue. It's being open to and
• 18:04
  Speaker 1: curious to another style of doing things, which back to
• 18:07
  Speaker 1: the startup and the merger, but also back to like
• 18:10
  Speaker 1: how you take criticism, right? For me, it's like criticism
• 18:12
  Speaker 1: is like a data point. If someone criticizes me for something,
• 18:15
  Speaker 1: and then I decide to fix that behavior, if I
• 18:18
  Speaker 1: continually get criticized over and over and over again, then
• 18:20
  Speaker 1: that's maybe not good for me. But if I get
• 18:23
  Speaker 1: criticized and then I change the behavior and then that
• 18:26
  Speaker 1: stops the criticism, I'm like, oh, this is actually good
• 18:29
  Speaker 1: for the relationship.
• 18:29
  Speaker 2: I was thinking something interesting though. You're calling it criticism,
• 18:32
  Speaker 2: but is it criticism or feedback? It's interesting how your
• 18:36
  Speaker 2: mind right now is taking maybe feedback and turning it
• 18:39
  Speaker 2: into criticism.
• 18:40
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 18:40
  Speaker 1: Because maybe that's a personalization I'm making around a bad feeling.
• 18:43
  Speaker 1: So maybe it is just feedback.
• 18:45
  Speaker 3: It's almost always feedback. I think there are certain times
• 18:48
  Speaker 3: when people make egregious mistakes in relationships. And then it's
• 18:52
  Speaker 3: really like, hey, that was wrong. Don't do that. But
• 18:55
  Speaker 3: most of the time when we're talking about a personality
• 18:58
  Speaker 3: trait or a preference, it's just my world. I'm just
• 19:02
  Speaker 3: telling you about how certain things impact my world. It
• 19:06
  Speaker 3: does not necessarily mean it's criticism. And one analogy that
• 19:09
  Speaker 3: I like to give people when they enter any sort
• 19:12
  Speaker 3: of committed relationship is saying, imagine you're just like a
• 19:16
  Speaker 3: regular American kid And you get on a plane and
• 19:19
  Speaker 3: all of a sudden the plane drops you off in
• 19:22
  Speaker 3: like China.
• 19:23
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 19:25
  Speaker 3: And they're like, go figure it out. And you're like
• 19:28
  Speaker 3: in like a suburb in China, okay? You're not even
• 19:30
  Speaker 3: in like a big city. Nobody speaks English. You're trying
• 19:33
  Speaker 3: to get around. You're saying, hey, like does anybody have
• 19:35
  Speaker 3: a pay phone? Is there a bathroom here? Can I
• 19:37
  Speaker 3: get some food? And they're looking at you like you're
• 19:39
  Speaker 3: from another planet.
• 19:39
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 19:40
  Speaker 3: Like I don't understand you.
• 19:41
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 19:42
  Speaker 3: And then they start talking to you and then you
• 19:43
  Speaker 3: get upset because they don't understand you. And they're like,
• 19:45
  Speaker 3: what are you even doing here? And that's what a
• 19:48
  Speaker 3: relationship is. I'm coming in with my entire world, my
• 19:52
  Speaker 3: entire history, all the years that I've lived, my family background,
• 19:56
  Speaker 3: my culture, my friendships, my traumas, my hopes, my dreams.
• 20:00
  Speaker 3: And you're coming in with yours. And we're meeting. And
• 20:04
  Speaker 3: I have gotten dropped into your world and you have
• 20:06
  Speaker 3: gotten dropped into mine. And here we are. Trying to
• 20:10
  Speaker 3: have a conversation about me explaining my entire universe to
• 20:14
  Speaker 3: your universe. That's a very challenging thing to do. But
• 20:18
  Speaker 3: it doesn't mean that your world is right and mine
• 20:20
  Speaker 3: is wrong. I'm just trying to share it with you.
• 20:23
  Speaker 3: But yeah, I think you got called out in kind
• 20:25
  Speaker 3: of an important way.
• 20:26
  Speaker 1: I can take it.
• 20:28
  Speaker 3: Yeah, there you go.
• 20:28
  Speaker 2: Perfect. Feedback.
• 20:30
  Speaker 3: Feedback.
• 20:31
  Speaker 2: You can take feedback.
• 20:32
  Speaker 3: I think it also makes our world so much more
• 20:35
  Speaker 3: gentle and easeful and less personal and less judgmental. When
• 20:40
  Speaker 3: we're able to see it that way.
• 20:41
  Speaker 1: Totally.
• 20:43
  Speaker 4: I love getting to the specific because I think it
• 20:51
  Speaker 4: makes it so much more easy to understand when we're
• 20:55
  Speaker 4: talking about the needs of.
• 21:06
  Speaker 2: Not being an attack, but instead just being sharing what's
• 21:09
  Speaker 2: going on in my world. So let's say girlfriend sharing
• 21:11
  Speaker 2: with boyfriend or the other way around. A great example
• 21:14
  Speaker 2: is a guy comes home late from work. Meetings came up,
• 21:19
  Speaker 2: things got pushed back. He was supposed to be home,
• 21:21
  Speaker 2: came back late. Let's go through like what happens maybe
• 21:24
  Speaker 2: in a typical sort of immature way. And then I
• 21:28
  Speaker 2: would love to hear like the resolved, more mature way
• 21:31
  Speaker 2: of going about it.
• 21:32
  Speaker 3: For sure. So What's happening inside of a woman in
• 21:35
  Speaker 3: that moment could be a whole host of things. It
• 21:38
  Speaker 3: could be I'm not important to him. It could be
• 21:41
  Speaker 3: he's being inconsistent. I asked him this three times already
• 21:43
  Speaker 3: and he's just ignoring me, which must mean I'm not important.
• 21:46
  Speaker 3: It could be I'm getting abandoned. Maybe there's an anxious
• 21:49
  Speaker 3: attachment or abandonment wound that's being triggered every time he
• 21:52
  Speaker 3: doesn't show up when he said he would. So all
• 21:55
  Speaker 3: of this storminess is starting to brew inside of her.
• 21:58
  Speaker 3: And maybe she really tries to be regulated. And she
• 22:01
  Speaker 3: texts him, hey. He doesn't answer. She texts him, when
• 22:04
  Speaker 3: are you coming home? He doesn't answer. And it's 10 o'clock.
• 22:07
  Speaker 3: He finally rolls up and he's like, had the craziest day.
• 22:10
  Speaker 3: You have no idea. I'm going to shower. And she's like,
• 22:12
  Speaker 3: all right, she's in a tizzy. At that point, she's like,
• 22:16
  Speaker 3: you're not getting in the shower. You're not even coming
• 22:17
  Speaker 3: in this door. Like, I never want to see you again.
• 22:19
  Speaker 3: She's already like that pent up, right? And maybe this
• 22:23
  Speaker 3: less healed person, right? In this case, the girl or
• 22:26
  Speaker 3: whatever is so pent up in terms of her emotional
• 22:30
  Speaker 3: experience that by the time she reaches Her man, she's like,
• 22:33
  Speaker 3: what is wrong with you? Why do you keep doing
• 22:36
  Speaker 3: this to me? Do you have no sympathy for me?
• 22:38
  Speaker 3: Do you have no consistency? Is it that hard to
• 22:40
  Speaker 3: send a text? And all of a sudden she's hurling
• 22:42
  Speaker 3: these horrible, hurtful, she's shooting these arrows at this guy.
• 22:46
  Speaker 3: And he's like, wait, I was just, I was just
• 22:50
  Speaker 3: like rallying for this family. I was just trying to
• 22:52
  Speaker 3: work so hard for you. We have all these expenses
• 22:55
  Speaker 3: coming up and I wanted you to feel taken care of.
• 22:57
  Speaker 3: Why are you attacking me? So she's overwhelmed and she's
• 23:00
  Speaker 3: throwing her attacks because her emotions are flooding her. And
• 23:03
  Speaker 3: he's now feeling attacks. It no longer feels like feedback
• 23:06
  Speaker 3: or even criticism. It feels like a personal vendetta.
• 23:09
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 23:09
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 23:09
  Speaker 3: And he's like, I'm with this like nutcase of a
• 23:11
  Speaker 3: woman and I can't. This is on her. This is not.
• 23:14
  Speaker 3: I didn't do anything wrong. Just came home at 10.
• 23:17
  Speaker 3: So that's the unhealed.
• 23:18
  Speaker 1: Right. Right.
• 23:19
  Speaker 3: Those are two people's childhood screaming at each other. Those
• 23:22
  Speaker 3: are two people's universes banging up against each other's pains.
• 23:26
  Speaker 3: And I would say a more healed way of going
• 23:28
  Speaker 3: through something like this is for the woman to have,
• 23:30
  Speaker 3: first of all, her own awareness. Hey, this is hitting
• 23:33
  Speaker 3: on my ex wound. This is hitting on my abandonment.
• 23:37
  Speaker 3: This is hitting on my fear of not having safety.
• 23:40
  Speaker 3: This is hitting on my fear of being cheated on
• 23:42
  Speaker 3: because that's what my ex did to me. And I
• 23:44
  Speaker 3: have to tolerate that. I'm responsible for that healing. But
• 23:49
  Speaker 3: I'm still allowed to have my pains and my standards
• 23:52
  Speaker 3: and my needs. So I'm going to communicate that to
• 23:54
  Speaker 3: my man in a way that's grounded. He walks in
• 23:57
  Speaker 3: the door and she says, you came home at 10 o'clock.
• 24:00
  Speaker 3: It really hurt my feelings because we spoke about this
• 24:02
  Speaker 3: and it makes me feel so incredibly anxious when this happens.
• 24:06
  Speaker 3: Moving forward, please try to send a text. And if
• 24:08
  Speaker 3: I answer you and it's after hours, at least just
• 24:10
  Speaker 3: give me a thumbs up. It would mean the world
• 24:12
  Speaker 3: to me and I would feel so much more safe
• 24:13
  Speaker 3: with you. That's actually a dear man script. That's a
• 24:16
  Speaker 3: script that we go through in therapy and we teach
• 24:17
  Speaker 3: people for communication. Describe The story that.
• 24:21
  Speaker 2: You're talking about? What, a dear man script?
• 24:22
  Speaker 3: It's called Dear Man, yeah.
• 24:23
  Speaker 2: Okay.
• 24:24
  Speaker 3: I'll say it to you really fast. So D stands
• 24:26
  Speaker 3: for describe. We need to know what story we're talking
• 24:29
  Speaker 3: about because he's like coming home happy as a clam
• 24:33
  Speaker 3: and he doesn't know what we're even talking about. So
• 24:35
  Speaker 3: she has to start by describing the emotional situation she's
• 24:38
  Speaker 3: reacting to. E is express. I'm expressing my feelings about this.
• 24:43
  Speaker 3: I'm not telling you you're bad. I'm not telling you
• 24:45
  Speaker 3: you did anything wrong. I'm using I statements and saying
• 24:47
  Speaker 3: I feel X when this happens to me. A is assert.
• 24:51
  Speaker 3: I'm going to also tell you exactly what I need
• 24:53
  Speaker 3: from you moving forward. Again, men are beings of a
• 24:57
  Speaker 3: start and an end, of a result, of an outcome.
• 25:00
  Speaker 3: Women naturally are much more process-oriented. So if we just say,
• 25:03
  Speaker 3: you're killing me here. A guy doesn't know what to
• 25:05
  Speaker 3: do with that. So if we say, this is what
• 25:07
  Speaker 3: I need from you, they have instruction, they have direction.
• 25:10
  Speaker 3: And then R is the reinforce. How is this going
• 25:12
  Speaker 3: to be better for you and for me if we
• 25:15
  Speaker 3: do things a little bit differently? I care about the relationship,
• 25:17
  Speaker 3: and I want you to know that. How are we
• 25:19
  Speaker 3: both going to get on board with trying to do
• 25:21
  Speaker 3: this differently?
• 25:22
  Speaker 2: Nice.
• 25:22
  Speaker 3: That's the dear part.
• 25:24
  Speaker 1: These three qualities that you listed at the beginning are
• 25:26
  Speaker 1: very important. But I also think that when we go
• 25:28
  Speaker 1: into like the future of what an anti-manosphere or a
• 25:31
  Speaker 1: modern masculine man looks like, there is a sense of
• 25:33
  Speaker 1: like having to be a good father in the sense
• 25:36
  Speaker 1: of like not just providing with money, but providing with care,
• 25:39
  Speaker 1: like time and care and changing diapers.
• 25:41
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 25:42
  Speaker 1: Right. There is there is this thing about emotional availability
• 25:45
  Speaker 1: or emotional expression where you're like, I'm going to tell
• 25:47
  Speaker 1: you how I feel and I'm going to hold space
• 25:49
  Speaker 1: for the way you feel. Right. I think there's a
• 25:51
  Speaker 1: lot of that now, which maybe makes it harder for
• 25:57
  Speaker 1: men to show up in the way that women need
• 25:59
  Speaker 1: them to. But also, I don't think women are also
• 26:04
  Speaker 1: don't get mad at me, but like giving men a
• 26:05
  Speaker 1: fair chance to try because I've never had to do
• 26:06
  Speaker 1: it before. I agree. So there's a little bit of
• 26:08
  Speaker 1: like this. tug and a pull.
• 26:10
  Speaker 2: And overgeneralizing to their experience of men being all men.
• 26:13
  Speaker 3: Yes.
• 26:14
  Speaker 2: I see that all the time on social media. And
• 26:15
  Speaker 2: I just want to respond to every comment that's like,
• 26:17
  Speaker 2: that doesn't exist.
• 26:19
  Speaker 3: And I'm like, but what if it does?
• 26:21
  Speaker 2: What if it does?
• 26:22
  Speaker 1: And it'll find you if you're just more open to
• 26:24
  Speaker 1: it finding you.
• 26:24
  Speaker 3: And again, I say this as like, as a feminist,
• 26:27
  Speaker 3: I say this as somebody that believes that women can
• 26:29
  Speaker 3: do everything and sometimes more than a man can do.
• 26:34
  Speaker 3: But we also need to learn how to, how to
• 26:36
  Speaker 3: let go. We also need to learn how to not
• 26:39
  Speaker 3: swoop in and fix just because we're good at something.
• 26:42
  Speaker 3: And we need to have patience with men and we
• 26:44
  Speaker 3: need to give men room and space to fail and
• 26:48
  Speaker 3: then to learn, to fall and then to rise up.
• 26:52
  Speaker 1: And if it happens three times in three months, then
• 26:54
  Speaker 1: maybe he's not it, right? If he fails three times.
• 26:56
  Speaker 3: So how is he failing, right? Is he cheating on you?
• 26:58
  Speaker 4: Yeah, exactly.
• 26:59
  Speaker 3: I don't know about that, right?
• 27:00
  Speaker 2: Or is he not taking on a date in three
• 27:02
  Speaker 2: weeks and you're like, sad. My girlfriend did a great,
• 27:05
  Speaker 2: she's so good at this. We hadn't been on a
• 27:07
  Speaker 2: date and it was, In a little bit. And she
• 27:09
  Speaker 2: texts me, I got a really cute outfit for our
• 27:12
  Speaker 2: next date night.
• 27:12
  Speaker 3: That's so cute. That's perfect.
• 27:14
  Speaker 2: And I was like, what an amazing way to remind
• 27:16
  Speaker 2: me that we haven't been on a date, Nicole.
• 27:18
  Speaker 1: Give you a little bit of a crumb and you're like,
• 27:19
  Speaker 1: I'll take it.
• 27:19
  Speaker 2: I was like, right. Yeah, let's go out on Saturday.
• 27:22
  Speaker 2: That's a smart woman. Because a lot of men are
• 27:24
  Speaker 2: really just ignorant to what a woman wants and needs
• 27:28
  Speaker 2: because our needs are very different.
• 27:31
  Speaker 1: I heard a girl recently in a story of dating.
• 27:34
  Speaker 1: This guy and girl went on a great first date.
• 27:36
  Speaker 1: Really great. Both had big feelings after the first date,
• 27:39
  Speaker 1: obviously like limerence and lust and love, whatever it is.
• 27:41
  Speaker 1: It was big. And they were texting each other a lot.
• 27:45
  Speaker 1: And she put up a boundary after the first week
• 27:47
  Speaker 1: and a half because they were out of town before
• 27:48
  Speaker 1: the second date. She goes, I'm having a great time,
• 27:51
  Speaker 1: but like, I feel like I'm getting love bombed right now.
• 27:54
  Speaker 1: And he took it a little personal, but she said it.
• 27:57
  Speaker 1: And then she responded with, but I still had a
• 27:59
  Speaker 1: great time with you. Can I come over for dinner tonight?
• 28:01
  Speaker 1: I can't wait to see you. Right. It wasn't like
• 28:03
  Speaker 1: an attack on him. It was like a little bit
• 28:05
  Speaker 1: of a boundary because of whatever she had in the past.
• 28:08
  Speaker 1: And he didn't know he was doing it. And then
• 28:10
  Speaker 1: it's like, OK, maybe there's a little bit discomfort, but
• 28:12
  Speaker 1: he wasn't like, you know, she did the right thing.
• 28:15
  Speaker 1: He did the right thing. And they still slept with
• 28:17
  Speaker 1: each other. They still had a great time. And now
• 28:18
  Speaker 1: they're dating. But I think people take that as like
• 28:21
  Speaker 1: the way this guy might have been like, oh, I
• 28:22
  Speaker 1: didn't mean.
• 28:23
  Speaker 2: To do the date.
• 28:24
  Speaker 1: It's like, no, you can just speak up a little
• 28:26
  Speaker 1: bit and not be so attacking the guy. Like, I'm
• 28:30
  Speaker 1: not saying that men can't take credit and be attacked.
• 28:33
  Speaker 1: Just like, don't be so critical, so harsh, so quickly.
• 28:38
  Speaker 1: Be aware of what's coming up in the past and
• 28:40
  Speaker 1: maybe just ease into it.
• 28:41
  Speaker 3: A hundred percent. And that's why it's always going to
• 28:43
  Speaker 3: be a two way street. It's always going to be
• 28:45
  Speaker 3: two people that need to be working with each other.
• 28:47
  Speaker 3: Both people need to be emotionally aware. Somebody asked me recently, well,
• 28:53
  Speaker 3: how do I get my partner, in this case, like
• 28:56
  Speaker 3: her man, how do I get him to do the thing?
• 28:58
  Speaker 3: And I said, you actually can't get him to do
• 29:02
  Speaker 3: the thing. You can create an environment where he's most
• 29:05
  Speaker 3: likely to do the thing. And we create environments all
• 29:09
  Speaker 3: the time. And if we're yelling at somebody, they're going
• 29:11
  Speaker 3: to be less likely to do the thing. Or we
• 29:13
  Speaker 3: can like so creatively invite them to take us out
• 29:17
  Speaker 3: on a beautiful date. And if we create an environment
• 29:20
  Speaker 3: like that, then our man is either going to step
• 29:23
  Speaker 3: up to the plate, in which case we'll get exactly
• 29:25
  Speaker 3: what we want, or he's not, in which case we
• 29:27
  Speaker 3: have all the information we need to walk away.
• 29:29
  Speaker 2: Totally. I love that. Going back to the attractive qualities, actually, David, Guillaume,
• 29:34
  Speaker 2: our mutual friend, he had a great line that actually
• 29:39
  Speaker 2: shifted dating forever.
• 29:40
  Speaker 1: Me.
• 29:40
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 29:40
  Speaker 2: And I think a lot of it has led me
• 29:41
  Speaker 2: into the relationship I'm in. About three years ago, I
• 29:44
  Speaker 2: was hearing him speak, and he goes, there's three things
• 29:47
  Speaker 2: every woman wants from a man. They want a man
• 29:50
  Speaker 2: who's strong, wealthy, and wise. And he defined them as like,
• 29:55
  Speaker 2: strong is not physical strength.
• 29:57
  Speaker 3: Strong is.
• 29:58
  Speaker 2: Really what you were describing, self-sufficiency, confidence in who they are.
• 30:01
  Speaker 3: I know who I am.
• 30:02
  Speaker 2: A steady foundation, consistent.
• 30:04
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 30:04
  Speaker 2: All these things. Wealth is not just financial wealth, but
• 30:06
  Speaker 2: it's actually how giving and abundant are they in their
• 30:09
  Speaker 2: mindset and their life. It doesn't mean necessarily to your
• 30:11
  Speaker 2: point that you have all the money today.
• 30:13
  Speaker 3: You don't have to be there yet.
• 30:14
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah.
• 30:15
  Speaker 2: But that you have aspiration, but also that you are
• 30:18
  Speaker 2: giving of your time, your wealth and what you do have.
• 30:21
  Speaker 2: And then wisdom, which I think goes to a lot
• 30:23
  Speaker 2: of the different pieces of this. It's the depth. It's
• 30:25
  Speaker 2: emotional intelligence.
• 30:26
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 30:26
  Speaker 2: It's a connection, understanding, listening.
• 30:28
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 30:28
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 30:28
  Speaker 1: Tell her about Man on the Street. Before we launched
• 30:32
  Speaker 1: the podcast. Yeah.
• 30:33
  Speaker 2: We started doing all this Man on Street content where
• 30:35
  Speaker 2: we would walk around LA and we would interview women.
• 30:39
  Speaker 2: We would ask them one question. We'd say, what do
• 30:43
  Speaker 2: you wish more men worked on in therapy?
• 30:45
  Speaker 1: Oh my gosh.
• 30:46
  Speaker 2: I love it. 90% of the women had the same
• 30:48
  Speaker 2: exact answer. And they said some version of I wish
• 30:53
  Speaker 2: they learned how to communicate their emotions. I wish I
• 30:55
  Speaker 2: knew what they were feeling. I wish I knew what
• 30:56
  Speaker 2: they were thinking and feeling.
• 30:57
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 30:58
  Speaker 2: Literally. I mean, nine out of ten.
• 30:59
  Speaker 1: That's actually funny to watch it back.
• 31:00
  Speaker 3: Yeah. I was going to say communication, so that would
• 31:02
  Speaker 3: have been on track. Yeah, you would have been. That
• 31:05
  Speaker 3: is crazy.
• 31:06
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 31:06
  Speaker 2: I guess, like, the question I had after hearing that
• 31:09
  Speaker 2: over and over was, like, why is it so hard
• 31:12
  Speaker 2: for men to communicate their emotions?
• 31:14
  Speaker 3: Well, I think it's hard for men to communicate their emotions,
• 31:16
  Speaker 3: and I also think it's hard for women to communicate
• 31:18
  Speaker 3: with men because women need such a different thing in
• 31:21
  Speaker 3: a conversation.
• 31:21
  Speaker 1: Mm-hmm.
• 31:23
  Speaker 3: I think that women, if we were going to talk
• 31:25
  Speaker 3: about not just what's an attractive quality for a woman,
• 31:28
  Speaker 3: but what is a woman's deepest need? I think those
• 31:32
  Speaker 3: needs are obviously safety and security, but also women need
• 31:34
  Speaker 3: to be seen.
• 31:37
  Speaker 1: What does it look like to see a woman from
• 31:38
  Speaker 1: a guy's point of view? What does it feel like
• 31:41
  Speaker 1: to be seen?
• 31:41
  Speaker 3: What does it feel like to be seen?
• 31:42
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 31:43
  Speaker 3: I think to be seen in our highs is to
• 31:47
  Speaker 3: be seen with our strengths, with our talents, with what
• 31:50
  Speaker 3: we're contributing to the world and for a guy to
• 31:52
  Speaker 3: actually care and pay attention to that and to give
• 31:56
  Speaker 3: importance to it, right? Acting interested, tell me about this
• 32:01
  Speaker 3: thing that you're doing and not just physically seen, but
• 32:03
  Speaker 3: if a woman is in a startup, like tell me
• 32:05
  Speaker 3: about your startup, what's going on. If they're not, if
• 32:08
  Speaker 3: they're a writer and they're writing pieces, like I wanna
• 32:10
  Speaker 3: see your talents, I wanna see who you are on
• 32:13
  Speaker 3: the inside. But I also think it means, you know,
• 32:15
  Speaker 3: being seen in our lows means just being seen in
• 32:18
  Speaker 3: our emotional state. So if we need to cry for
• 32:22
  Speaker 3: an hour about something that happened in our health that
• 32:25
  Speaker 3: felt really scary for us or something that happened with
• 32:30
  Speaker 3: our moms that we never thought would happen or something
• 32:32
  Speaker 3: happened at work, a guy wants to hear that and say, like,
• 32:35
  Speaker 3: all right, here's how we're going to fix it.
• 32:37
  Speaker 1: Let's go.
• 32:39
  Speaker 3: Let's get in there and let's fix it. And I
• 32:41
  Speaker 3: think sometimes what a woman just needs is to be
• 32:43
  Speaker 3: seen in that pain and to say, I don't want
• 32:45
  Speaker 3: to fix our relationship problem right now. We can fix
• 32:48
  Speaker 3: it tomorrow. I don't want to fix this problem in
• 32:50
  Speaker 3: my health or in my family right now. We can
• 32:52
  Speaker 3: fix it another time. Right now, I just want you
• 32:53
  Speaker 3: to be with me in my suffering.
• 32:56
  Speaker 1: Men are these fixers. They can't stand that discomfort and
• 33:00
  Speaker 1: that process.
• 33:00
  Speaker 2: I feel like it's probably one of the biggest areas
• 33:03
  Speaker 2: of conflict in many relationships, which is like this. Women
• 33:07
  Speaker 2: just want to be seen, heard, and empathized with, and
• 33:10
  Speaker 2: men are trying to fix.
• 33:12
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 33:12
  Speaker 3: And not always, right? Women don't always just want to
• 33:14
  Speaker 3: be seen, heard, and empathized with, but When we're in
• 33:17
  Speaker 3: that state of needing a witness to our pain, we're
• 33:20
  Speaker 3: needing another human being to shoulder the burden with us.
• 33:24
  Speaker 3: The last thing we want is a solution because really
• 33:27
  Speaker 3: we want shoulders.
• 33:28
  Speaker 1: Yeah. I'm thinking about like, what's the easiest way to
• 33:30
  Speaker 1: tell some of my friends who are like, I don't
• 33:32
  Speaker 1: even know what to start with. It'd be like when
• 33:35
  Speaker 1: your girlfriend comes to you with a problem, just be like,
• 33:37
  Speaker 1: I'm here for you. Yeah.
• 33:38
  Speaker 3: I want to hear more.
• 33:39
  Speaker 1: I got you.
• 33:40
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 33:40
  Speaker 1: Whenever you want to talk about it, I got, that's it.
• 33:42
  Speaker 1: Tell me more. I'm here for you. Yeah.
• 33:43
  Speaker 3: I'm here for you right now.
• 33:44
  Speaker 1: I have an hour.
• 33:45
  Speaker 3: I have an hour. Oh, my gosh.
• 33:47
  Speaker 1: Right? It's not even a big thing.
• 33:50
  Speaker 3: Not to you.
• 33:51
  Speaker 1: Well.
• 33:51
  Speaker 2: To a girl?
• 33:53
  Speaker 3: I have an hour?
• 33:54
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 33:54
  Speaker 2: You know what I mean?
• 33:56
  Speaker 3: Like, that is a love language of sorts.
• 33:58
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 33:59
  Speaker 3: I'm with you for an hour. Laser-focused attention is cheaper
• 34:02
  Speaker 3: than therapy. I'll tell you that. You guys will have
• 34:04
  Speaker 3: less expenses later on, but it's really just what people
• 34:07
  Speaker 3: need sometimes.
• 34:25
  Speaker 2: Let's say Guy comes home and his woman's having an
• 34:29
  Speaker 2: emotional day.
• 34:30
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 34:30
  Speaker 2: And Guy doesn't even know why.
• 34:32
  Speaker 3: Doesn't know why.
• 34:32
  Speaker 2: And she doesn't even know why, let's say. How can
• 34:36
  Speaker 2: he show up? Because I think the instinct as a
• 34:39
  Speaker 2: man is like, what's wrong?
• 34:40
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 34:40
  Speaker 2: Like a lot of, what's wrong? Does something happen? Did
• 34:44
  Speaker 2: I do something wrong?
• 34:44
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 34:45
  Speaker 2: Did your mom, you know, what can a man do?
• 34:48
  Speaker 2: What can someone do to show up in a really
• 34:50
  Speaker 2: loving and seeing way?
• 34:52
  Speaker 3: I think it's that. I think it's availability. Like, just
• 34:55
  Speaker 3: put your phone away and sit with them and pay
• 34:58
  Speaker 3: attention to them. It doesn't have to make any sense
• 35:00
  Speaker 3: to you.
• 35:01
  Speaker 1: It won't.
• 35:02
  Speaker 3: Don't need it to make sense to you. Just hear
• 35:04
  Speaker 3: and listen and provide comfort and feedback. And it's like,
• 35:08
  Speaker 3: it's literally not that hard. When I teach men how
• 35:10
  Speaker 3: to use validation, I'm like, guys, this is going to
• 35:12
  Speaker 3: be the easiest thing you ever have to do. Repeat
• 35:14
  Speaker 3: back what I'm saying in other words and actually tell
• 35:16
  Speaker 3: me that you mean it. I'm having a horrible day. Like,
• 35:19
  Speaker 3: oh my God, I can't believe you're having the worst day. Nice.
• 35:21
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 35:22
  Speaker 3: I would give every man a challenge to try speaking
• 35:24
  Speaker 3: like that for a week and to see what changes
• 35:27
  Speaker 3: in his world. But I think that the hard part
• 35:30
  Speaker 3: is and I don't think we give men enough credit
• 35:31
  Speaker 3: for this is that you almost have to toggle on
• 35:34
  Speaker 3: and toggle off this part of your brain. Because at work,
• 35:38
  Speaker 3: you can't do.
• 35:38
  Speaker 1: This, right?
• 35:39
  Speaker 3: Investors call, like, we're having a big issue here, and
• 35:43
  Speaker 3: we're not hitting our KPIs, and what's going on? You're like,
• 35:46
  Speaker 3: I hear you.
• 35:46
  Speaker 2: I see you. I see you.
• 35:49
  Speaker 3: I'm with you in your pain.
• 35:51
  Speaker 2: I know I can't help you right now, but I
• 35:53
  Speaker 2: see you.
• 35:53
  Speaker 3: I know that I can't take away your pain. I'm like, actually,
• 35:57
  Speaker 3: that's literally your only job. So you have to almost, like,
• 36:01
  Speaker 3: move from that into this space, which is a very
• 36:04
  Speaker 3: difficult shift, and people aren't used to that shift.
• 36:06
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 36:07
  Speaker 3: I would also say to men, be patient with yourself
• 36:09
  Speaker 3: in this process, but try it.
• 36:10
  Speaker 2: I heard that often like the two emotions that men
• 36:13
  Speaker 2: go to the quickest are stoicism and anger. Like stoicism
• 36:16
  Speaker 2: is this really interesting thing that's very popular, like the
• 36:19
  Speaker 2: concept of stoicism, but then also the actual meaning of
• 36:22
  Speaker 2: stoicism in an emotional sense, which is like, I'm going
• 36:26
  Speaker 2: to be strong. And it's often perceived as not share
• 36:30
  Speaker 2: any emotion. And even the things that we talked about,
• 36:32
  Speaker 2: we talked about being a strong man, right? Being self-sufficient.
• 36:35
  Speaker 2: And all these things can very easily teeter on stoic
• 36:40
  Speaker 2: and closed off.
• 36:41
  Speaker 3: Yes.
• 36:42
  Speaker 2: Let's say a couple comes in and, you know, she's like,
• 36:46
  Speaker 2: he doesn't share anything with me. I don't know what's
• 36:49
  Speaker 2: going on in his head. How do you guide him
• 36:53
  Speaker 2: through a process of feeling safe or opening up?
• 36:58
  Speaker 3: I would say there's a very big difference between being
• 36:59
  Speaker 3: strong and suppressing. Hmm. The moment you are suppressing, anger
• 37:05
  Speaker 3: will be a part of your story because no emotion
• 37:09
  Speaker 3: can live unprocessed in a body for too long. That's
• 37:12
  Speaker 3: what anger is, right?
• 37:14
  Speaker 2: What is it?
• 37:16
  Speaker 3: It is unprocessed emotion, emotional needs, emotional experiences that have
• 37:21
  Speaker 3: been locked up for so long and they're begging to
• 37:25
  Speaker 3: be heard and they're begging to be processed that they
• 37:27
  Speaker 3: end up bursting out at very inconvenient times in very
• 37:30
  Speaker 3: inconvenient ways to the wrong people.
• 37:32
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 37:33
  Speaker 3: You're not actually mad at your girlfriend.
• 37:35
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 37:35
  Speaker 3: Maybe you're mad at your mom.
• 37:37
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 37:37
  Speaker 2: So when people say anger is a secondary emotion.
• 37:39
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 37:40
  Speaker 2: They're saying it's that first emotion. Maybe the grief or
• 37:44
  Speaker 2: the fear.
• 37:45
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 37:45
  Speaker 2: The anxiety is unexpressed and repressed.
• 37:48
  Speaker 3: Yes.
• 37:49
  Speaker 2: And then it comes out.
• 37:50
  Speaker 3: Comes out as anger. And anger actually is the more
• 37:52
  Speaker 3: acceptable emotion. It's more acceptable for a man to be
• 37:54
  Speaker 3: angry in our day and age than for a man
• 37:55
  Speaker 3: to be grieving his mom that verbally abused him.
• 38:00
  Speaker 1: Right?
• 38:00
  Speaker 3: Like a man doesn't want to walk into therapy and
• 38:02
  Speaker 3: say that. A man can say, I have anger issues.
• 38:05
  Speaker 3: My girlfriend is annoying, right? He could say that and
• 38:08
  Speaker 3: he won't be judged and he won't be judging himself
• 38:10
  Speaker 3: and he'll feel strong, but he can't say what his
• 38:12
  Speaker 3: anger is really about.
• 38:14
  Speaker 1: What was it? We had a therapist come on a
• 38:16
  Speaker 1: couple of weeks ago, Seth, and he said, it's much
• 38:21
  Speaker 1: easier for you to hold it in than it is
• 38:25
  Speaker 1: to actually be vulnerable. The harder thing for a guy
• 38:28
  Speaker 1: is to be vulnerable. So real strength is opening up. 100%.
• 38:31
  Speaker 2: I loved that.
• 38:33
  Speaker 3: A hundred percent. You think you're, you're being the stronger
• 38:36
  Speaker 3: person by holding it in. There's a level of strength
• 38:39
  Speaker 3: that people haven't even touched yet. And that's being able
• 38:41
  Speaker 3: to say, I am whole and I am solid and
• 38:45
  Speaker 3: I can share a bit of my brokenness with you.
• 38:47
  Speaker 3: Those two things shouldn't be able to exist at once,
• 38:50
  Speaker 3: but when you can make them exist at once, that's
• 38:52
  Speaker 3: real power.
• 38:52
  Speaker 1: But the women see that as real strength.
• 38:54
  Speaker 3: Of course.
• 38:55
  Speaker 1: And most men don't realize that women see that as
• 38:57
  Speaker 1: strength because in your eyes, it feels like weakness.
• 38:59
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 38:59
  Speaker 1: But the most of the world, the world that's healed
• 39:02
  Speaker 1: and understood sees that as real strength. Yeah.
• 39:05
  Speaker 3: I bet if we would do a poll of women
• 39:07
  Speaker 3: who have been in conversations with men who've truly broken
• 39:10
  Speaker 3: down to them about their pain or about their process,
• 39:14
  Speaker 3: how many of those women would be like, that was
• 39:15
  Speaker 3: like the sexiest moment of his life. Do you know
• 39:18
  Speaker 3: what I mean?
• 39:19
  Speaker 1: I remember like six, five months into my relationship, I
• 39:21
  Speaker 1: was like in the shower thinking about like, what's my
• 39:24
  Speaker 1: biggest fear? And then I was like, I can't even
• 39:25
  Speaker 1: tell my girlfriend my biggest fear. I was like, I
• 39:27
  Speaker 1: would never tell her my biggest fear five months into
• 39:29
  Speaker 1: the relationship. but I have such bad like rumination that
• 39:32
  Speaker 1: I just blurted it out in a in a in
• 39:34
  Speaker 1: like a dinner or something and I was just like
• 39:36
  Speaker 1: I told her and she was like whoa that's like
• 39:39
  Speaker 1: the last thing that I would think that you would
• 39:41
  Speaker 1: ever be afraid of that's so bizarre why do you
• 39:45
  Speaker 1: think that way and then I explained it and it
• 39:46
  Speaker 1: opened us up to this like sense of connection That
• 39:50
  Speaker 1: I was actually unwilling or unsure would show up. Yeah.
• 39:53
  Speaker 1: And it actually was received so well. And I felt
• 39:56
  Speaker 1: so open by sharing that with her. I was like, oh,
• 39:59
  Speaker 1: what a gift that I like had the rumination there
• 40:01
  Speaker 1: to open it up. But anyways, yeah.
• 40:03
  Speaker 3: No, but you're also touching on a really important point.
• 40:05
  Speaker 3: Most people don't know that the secret of a relationship,
• 40:09
  Speaker 3: the glue of a relationship is vulnerability. Without it, you're
• 40:12
  Speaker 3: two people just walking down a road.
• 40:14
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 40:14
  Speaker 3: You're not even holding hands.
• 40:16
  Speaker 1: Sure. You know, there's no lights on. Yeah. There's no
• 40:18
  Speaker 1: lights on the street. You're just blind.
• 40:19
  Speaker 3: You're just blind. And you're just like, there's this other
• 40:22
  Speaker 3: being here, but I don't really know them. I can't
• 40:23
  Speaker 3: really touch them. And vulnerability is the glue that brings
• 40:26
  Speaker 3: two people together. And even more deeply, there's a saying
• 40:30
  Speaker 3: in the Kabbalistic world as well, like there's nothing more
• 40:32
  Speaker 3: whole than a broken heart. It doesn't make any sense, right?
• 40:36
  Speaker 3: First time I heard that, I'm like, eh, no, that's wrong.
• 40:39
  Speaker 3: Throw that out of my brain. And it took me
• 40:41
  Speaker 3: a lot of my own personal evolution to learn what
• 40:43
  Speaker 3: that truly meant. And that only in brokenness can you
• 40:47
  Speaker 3: feel whole with somebody else. Only in sharing your pain.
• 40:50
  Speaker 3: Can somebody else truly be let in? And by the way,
• 40:52
  Speaker 3: even in your fights, being, being in a state of
• 40:55
  Speaker 3: we fought and now we can repair.
• 40:57
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 40:57
  Speaker 3: That's what makes relationships strong. Literally nothing else.
• 41:01
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 41:01
  Speaker 1: Can you talk about repair?
• 41:03
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 41:03
  Speaker 1: Talk about how hard it is. What, what good repair
• 41:05
  Speaker 1: looks like after an argument? Like just, I think I
• 41:09
  Speaker 1: don't even understand like how to explain repair.
• 41:11
  Speaker 4: Right.
• 41:12
  Speaker 1: It's very, it's very hard to understand. Yeah.
• 41:14
  Speaker 3: Unless you've been in it, it's hard to really get, Well,
• 41:17
  Speaker 3: maybe there's like an example.
• 41:19
  Speaker 2: An easy one is like, you fuck up.
• 41:20
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 41:21
  Speaker 2: You hurt your partner.
• 41:22
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 41:23
  Speaker 2: And I think a lot of guys go, I said,
• 41:24
  Speaker 2: I'm sorry.
• 41:25
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 41:25
  Speaker 2: And I mean it. And I didn't mean to even
• 41:28
  Speaker 2: hurt you.
• 41:29
  Speaker 1: Yeah. And I said, I'm sorry again next week. I
• 41:31
  Speaker 1: keep saying, I'm sorry.
• 41:32
  Speaker 3: And then I would say back, ask her what she
• 41:35
  Speaker 3: is still in pain about.
• 41:38
  Speaker 1: Nice.
• 41:39
  Speaker 3: Because a repair is not about the surface level issue
• 41:42
  Speaker 3: that happened. Nothing in life is about the surface level
• 41:44
  Speaker 3: issue that happened. Nothing.
• 41:45
  Speaker 1: Nothing.
• 41:46
  Speaker 3: It is all about our emotional experiences of it. So
• 41:49
  Speaker 3: if you're saying, I'm sorry I came home late and
• 41:52
  Speaker 3: she's not hearing, I know you felt abandoned and I
• 41:55
  Speaker 3: wasn't trying to abandon you, but I know you felt
• 41:57
  Speaker 3: that way. I'm so sorry that my action caused you
• 42:02
  Speaker 3: any part of that pain that I never want you
• 42:04
  Speaker 3: to ever have to feel again. I never want you
• 42:06
  Speaker 3: to have to feel abandonment again. Sorry I was a
• 42:08
  Speaker 3: part of it. I think that that's where repair lives.
• 42:13
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 42:13
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's beautiful.
• 42:14
  Speaker 1: To me also, repair isn't always wanting it just to
• 42:18
  Speaker 1: get better. Repair can take months.
• 42:20
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 42:21
  Speaker 1: Repair can come and go in a relationship where maybe
• 42:23
  Speaker 1: she's in a great mood and then she gets a
• 42:25
  Speaker 1: little bit step back and there's still some repair. Just
• 42:27
  Speaker 1: because it doesn't get better immediately doesn't mean that one,
• 42:31
  Speaker 1: it won't get better. It doesn't mean that two, that
• 42:33
  Speaker 1: she won't get over it. But it's reminding yourself that
• 42:35
  Speaker 1: some repair, whether it's an affair or whether it's things
• 42:37
  Speaker 1: that are more drastic that you have so much shame about,
• 42:40
  Speaker 1: there is repair that happens immediately. quickly but also like
• 42:43
  Speaker 1: over months and years i.
• 42:45
  Speaker 3: Think according to the pain exactly yeah exactly of repair.
• 42:49
  Speaker 2: And being okay with if you really really fucked up
• 42:52
  Speaker 2: and you really still love a long period of time
• 42:53
  Speaker 2: but it's also the and going back to the consistency
• 42:56
  Speaker 2: yeah going back to all those aspects it's like maybe
• 42:59
  Speaker 2: that's even more when you need to show up if
• 43:01
  Speaker 2: you really fucked up yeah nice to show up even
• 43:04
  Speaker 2: bigger in those areas because clearly they need it the
• 43:07
  Speaker 2: repair Amazing. Elisa.
• 43:09
  Speaker 1: Elisa, thank you so much.
• 43:10
  Speaker 3: This was so fun. I feel like we could talk
• 43:12
  Speaker 3: for hours.
• 43:12
  Speaker 2: I feel like we will definitely have you back.
• 43:14
  Speaker 1: You're more than welcome to come back whenever you want.
• 43:16
  Speaker 3: Okay, part two soon, you guys.
• 43:18
  Speaker 1: Where can people find you and your work?
• 43:20
  Speaker 3: They can find me on Instagram, Therapist in NYC. They
• 43:23
  Speaker 3: can also text me or call my office at 646-494-2653. Again,
• 43:28
  Speaker 3: I really help.
• 43:29
  Speaker 2: Love that.
• 43:29
  Speaker 3: It's so sweet that you do that. Yeah, it's like, listen, I...
• 43:32
  Speaker 3: I want people to not just be in therapy. I
• 43:34
  Speaker 3: want them to be in the right therapy.
• 43:35
  Speaker 4: Amazing.
• 43:35
  Speaker 3: So I spend a lot of my time doing that.
• 43:37
  Speaker 3: My email address is Elisa, A-L-I-Z-A at therapyinthecity.org.
• 43:41
  Speaker 2: I love the name of your practice. Therapy in the City. Yeah,
• 43:43
  Speaker 2: Therapy in the City is great.
• 43:45
  Speaker 3: Yeah. We started out in Manhattan and now we're just
• 43:48
  Speaker 3: in all of my favorite cities.
• 43:49
  Speaker 4: I love Manhattan.
• 43:51
  Speaker 3: Thank you, guys. This was incredible.
• 43:52
  Speaker 1: Thank you.
• 43:53
  Speaker 2: Keep coming on.
• 43:54
  Speaker 1: See you soon.
• 43:54
  Speaker 3: Continue. Yes.
• 43:55
  Speaker 1: Love you, bro.
• 43:56
  Speaker 2: Love you, Benny. Guys. Fun. So fun. Thanks for listening
• 44:00
  Speaker 2: to the episode. We hope you loved it. So our
• 44:03
  Speaker 2: goal is to get a million guys into therapy with
• 44:06
  Speaker 2: this show. And the biggest thing you could do to
• 44:07
  Speaker 2: support is leave us a five-star review on Apple or Spotify. Yeah.
• 44:11
  Speaker 1: Kevin and I are so passionate about these conversations. It
• 44:14
  Speaker 1: makes such a big impact on the show. And it
• 44:16
  Speaker 1: really helps us reach more people who need to hear
• 44:19
  Speaker 1: conversations like this.
• 44:21
  Speaker 2: You can also watch the full show on YouTube with videos.
• 44:24
  Speaker 2: So you can actually feel like you're in the room
• 44:26
  Speaker 2: with us getting therapy.
• 44:28
  Speaker 1: Because therapy is expensive.
• 44:29
  Speaker 2: But our podcast is free.
• 44:33
  Speaker 1: So go subscribe, follow, rate, and review. And if you
• 44:36
  Speaker 1: have any feedback on topics you want us to cover,
• 44:39
  Speaker 1: just shoot us a note on Instagram. We'll see you
• 44:41
  Speaker 1: next week.