Latest / The Restaurant Guys / Tim McKirdy on Kitchens, Cocktail Culture, and Cooking with Booze

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Tim McKirdy on Kitchens, Cocktail Culture, and Cooking with Booze · The Restaurant Guys

• 0:42
  Mark (2): Hello everybody and welcome.
• 0:43
  Mark (2): You are listening to the Restaurant Guys.
• 0:45
  Mark (2): I'm Mark Pascal and I'm here with Francis Shot.
• 0:47
  Mark (2): Together we own stage left and Ka Lombardi restaurants in New Brunswick, New Jersey.
• 0:51
  Mark (2): We're here to bring you the inside track on food, wine, and the finer things in life.
• 0:56
  Mark (2): Today's show is gonna be just a little bit different as we're heading off to Brooklyn to go to Tim McCurdy's new studio You're gonna hear an interesting show with a very interesting guy who used to be the voice of Cocktail College.
• 1:09
  Mark (2): He is now starting this new podcast with Southerner Teague called Sauced.
• 1:14
  Mark (2): we really do think you're gonna enjoy the show.
• 1:16
  Mark (2): We'll see you there.
• 1:18
  Francis: Ready?
• 1:18
  Francis: Are we ready?
• 1:19
  Francis: Are you ready?
• 1:19
  Francis: Good to go.
• 1:20
  Francis: I'm ready.
• 1:20
  Francis: All right.
• 1:22
  Mark (2): All right.
• 1:22
  Mark (2): Don't be nervous.
• 1:25
  Tim: I I'm a little shaky over here.
• 1:27
  Francis: Hey there everybody.
• 1:28
  Francis: Welcome back.
• 1:28
  Francis: Today we are in Brooklyn recording onsite at the brand new podcast studio of Tim McCurdy and Southern Teague.
• 1:35
  Francis: Tim is a singular voice in drinks, journalism and a longtime friend of the show.
• 1:39
  Francis: This space is to Tim's new podcast, sauced, which has just launched.
• 1:45
  Francis: We'll tell you how to find it in the links on the show.
• 1:47
  Francis: Um, uh, and it's produced with our mutual friend Southern Teague.
• 1:50
  Francis: Very exciting.
• 1:51
  Francis: Now, uh, Tim is originally from the uk.
• 1:53
  Francis: He began his culinary career cooking in top kitchens and London and Buenos I raised before shifting into the drinks media.
• 2:01
  Francis: He was until very recently, editor at Vine Pair and host of the Cocktail College podcast where he has become a central figure in how modern drinks are written about, explained and critiqued.
• 2:11
  Francis: And we'll talk about all that and his new podcast.
• 2:14
  Francis: Sauced today.
• 2:16
  Mark (2): Tim McCurdy, welcome to the show from your studio.
• 2:21
  Tim: Thank you for, thank you for having me, and thank you for joining me here.
• 2:24
  Francis: Thank you for having us.
• 2:25
  Francis: Who's having, who?
• 2:27
  Francis: Who is having, I'm having who?
• 2:28
  Mark (2): I believe it's, who's having whom?
• 2:29
  Francis: You know, I'm, I'm, you know what I'm having, I'm having Podcast Studio Envy right now is what I'm having because if you're watching this on video.
• 2:36
  Francis: It's a nicer, well, uh, no, it's not a nicer place.
• 2:39
  Francis: We're recording it in our multimillion dollar restaurant.
• 2:41
  Francis: Yeah.
• 2:41
  Francis: But it's not the best podcast studio.
• 2:43
  Tim: Yeah.
• 2:44
  Tim: That's, uh, yeah, that's fit for, for different purposes primarily.
• 2:47
  Tim: Yeah.
• 2:47
  Tim: This one's, your shows always sound great.
• 2:49
  Francis: Thank you.
• 2:50
  Francis: This one's built for speed though.
• 2:52
  Francis: So we wanna start with the most obvious thing, um, your glass weg.
• 2:57
  Tim: Yes.
• 2:57
  Francis: That's odd.
• 3:00
  Mark (2): Maybe, maybe you should, I, I'm not sure if most people know what Glaswegian
• 3:04
  Francis: is.
• 3:04
  Francis: You're from Glasgow.
• 3:05
  Francis: From Glasgow originally.
• 3:06
  Francis: That's odd.
• 3:07
  Francis: Yeah.
• 3:07
  Francis: So, um, a Scotsman in the uk, in the United States, how, how did, uh, how'd that come about?
• 3:13
  Tim: Um, so I, I was born in Scotland, uh, born in Glasgow,
• 3:17
  Francis: Uhhuh,
• 3:17
  Tim: primarily raised in another town called Perth.
• 3:21
  Tim: Uh, and then my family, we moved to England, a place called Lincoln.
• 3:25
  Tim: Okay.
• 3:26
  Tim: When I was seven or eight.
• 3:27
  Francis: Okay.
• 3:28
  Tim: Uh, and then as soon as I could leave Lincoln, I moved to London'cause that's where I wanted to be and didn't wanna be in a small city.
• 3:36
  Francis: Was, was the, was the first city not great or was it just the draw of London?
• 3:40
  Tim: Both.
• 3:40
  Tim: I mean, the first city was great and we had a great group of friends and actually like, we all moved down to London at the same time and shared a house, which on reflection.
• 3:49
  Tim: Oh, that fun.
• 3:49
  Tim: It was fun was not a good idea.
• 3:51
  Tim: And we did, none of us got our deposits back from those rentals.
• 3:54
  Tim: Yeah.
• 3:54
  Tim: Let me tell you that.
• 3:55
  Francis: So what did you do?
• 3:55
  Francis: Did you move there to study and, and
• 3:57
  Tim: Yeah, so in Lincoln, I was taking a year out between high school and university, and I got a job as a food runner,
• 4:05
  Francis: Uhhuh.
• 4:06
  Tim: And I didn't know.
• 4:08
  Tim: Food running existed.
• 4:09
  Tim: I knew of restaurants, but I didn't come up in a culture of like, fine dining or, no, I'm one of five.
• 4:16
  Tim: So my mom's cooking was more utilitarian.
• 4:19
  Francis: Yeah.
• 4:19
  Tim: It was more about making sure everyone got fed and making sure you could please all five
• 4:23
  Francis: Yeah.
• 4:23
  Tim: Mouths.
• 4:24
  Tim: Yeah.
• 4:24
  Francis: Yeah.
• 4:24
  Tim: Um, so that
• 4:25
  Francis: was, by the way, Italian moms do that, but it it, they do the whole color.
• 4:28
  Francis: They do as well.
• 4:29
  Francis: Yeah.
• 4:29
  Francis: They, they do both.
• 4:30
  Francis: I, I had an Irish American mom, very similar to yours.
• 4:33
  Francis: I'm, I'm sure, yeah, sure.
• 4:34
  Francis: Well, my,
• 4:34
  Mark (2): my Italian grandmother, you know, wanted to please all five mouths, but.
• 4:40
  Mark (2): She was making what she was making and, you know.
• 4:42
  Mark (2): Right, right.
• 4:43
  Mark (2): And I hope this pleases you.
• 4:44
  Tim: There's a lot more of a culture there than Scotland or, or England for food, culinary culture
• 4:49
  Francis: on a different level.
• 4:50
  Tim: Yeah.
• 4:51
  Tim: But that, so that job was my first sort of glimpse into the idea and the notion that you could have a career in hospitality and that food could be something more than just sustenance,
• 5:03
  Francis: uhhuh.
• 5:03
  Tim: Uh, so I started working as a food runner, and what I loved about that was I spent probably 75% of my time in the kitchen.
• 5:10
  Francis: Mm-hmm.
• 5:11
  Francis: Yeah.
• 5:11
  Tim: Yeah.
• 5:11
  Tim: So I was prepping stuff for the chefs, you know, chopping up their butter, making sure they had spoons and clean water and everything.
• 5:17
  Tim: And they would give me a hard time.
• 5:19
  Tim: They'd mess around with my fridge when I was out doing like a, a room service.
• 5:23
  Tim: 'cause this was a, a hotel that the oldest parts like dated back to the 14th or 15th century, 14 hundreds.
• 5:29
  Tim: Oh gosh.
• 5:29
  Tim: Mm-hmm.
• 5:29
  Tim: So incredible place and really eyeopening.
• 5:32
  Tim: And I said, well.
• 5:34
  Tim: I'm gonna go to university, I'm gonna study English.
• 5:36
  Tim: There's no job at the end of it.
• 5:38
  Tim: I don't really know what I'm doing.
• 5:40
  Francis: I have a
• 5:40
  Tim: degree in English.
• 5:40
  Tim: This is a career.
• 5:41
  Francis: I have a degree in English.
• 5:42
  Mark (2): I, I just wanna tell
• 5:43
  Francis: you guys something.
• 5:43
  Francis: Then I got, then I got behind the bar.
• 5:44
  Mark (2): Yeah.
• 5:45
  Mark (2): And all and, and all you and to, to most people in, in this country, in that country with English degrees, you, you already speak it.
• 5:54
  Tim: Yeah.
• 5:54
  Tim: Quite to, to varying levels.
• 5:56
  Francis: Yeah.
• 5:56
  Francis: Yeah.
• 5:57
  Francis: Well, you've become a writer too, so it, it did come in more handy for you.
• 6:01
  Tim: Well, that was the goal, but then I said, I dunno what that career path looks like.
• 6:05
  Tim: And do I wanna wake up every day and open up a laptop and respond to emails?
• 6:08
  Tim: Or do I want to go in a kitchen where I'm doing things, where I'm seeing things evolve?
• 6:13
  Tim: I'm, I'm building things from scratch.
• 6:15
  Tim: And I was like, okay, I wanna do this, but I don't wanna do it in Lincoln, this small city.
• 6:20
  Tim: Mm-hmm.
• 6:21
  Tim: So what is the best culinary institution in the country?
• 6:24
  Tim: And let's apply for a course there.
• 6:27
  Tim: And I ended up at somewhere called Westminster Kingsway College.
• 6:31
  Tim: Which is basically like London and the UK's equivalent of the ccia mm-hmm.
• 6:35
  Tim: Was founded by August Safier.
• 6:37
  Tim: So there's something wrong, you know, there's some credentials there, you know, there's
• 6:40
  Francis: credentials there.
• 6:40
  Tim: Got some,
• 6:41
  Francis: well, I, before we move on from that, because I think that is a, is a, that is a, a lot of people in the restaurant business, it, it's been the way out people could get outta prison and join the restaurant business and make a life for themselves, or don't have an opportunity to go to college and join the restaurant business and, and find a pathway to, you know, a very successful thing.
• 7:00
  Francis: A lot of folks were gonna go to college, or I was gonna go to law school, and then I'm in a restaurant.
• 7:05
  Francis: I'm like, it caught me.
• 7:07
  Francis: Yeah.
• 7:07
  Francis: And I was like, I don't wanna do that.
• 7:09
  Francis: I wanna do this.
• 7:10
  Francis: And in the, in the UK you weren't saying, you were saying, oh, I don't wanna waste all that time in college, you weren't saying, I don't wanna waste all that college and have my parents spend$400,000 Yes.
• 7:19
  Francis: On an English degree.
• 7:21
  Francis: Uh, you know, I'll do this.
• 7:23
  Tim: Well, and here's another great thing about the UK and that school particularly is they have apprenticeship programs.
• 7:30
  Francis: Yeah.
• 7:30
  Tim: So the way that this course worked out for me was a two year course.
• 7:34
  Tim: You spent one week of every month at college.
• 7:38
  Francis: Right.
• 7:38
  Tim: Full time and then three weeks, or the remaining three weeks where you were employed.
• 7:43
  Francis: Mm-hmm.
• 7:44
  Tim: So you applied, you got a place for this on this course, and then you had to go and find a job, and you had to find a job also that paid you Right.
• 7:53
  Tim: And paid your tuition.
• 7:55
  Tim: Oh, wow.
• 7:55
  Tim: That was the whole thing.
• 7:56
  Tim: So you got out there basically for free, and of course you were earning apprentice wages.
• 8:00
  Tim McK Seq Audio: Yeah.
• 8:00
  Francis: But you were doing things and producing things to earn those
• 8:03
  Tim: wages.
• 8:03
  Tim: Exactly.
• 8:04
  Mark (2): well, when Francis and I got into this business.
• 8:07
  Mark (2): The business was a place you went while you were waiting to do something else.
• 8:13
  Mark (2): Yeah, yeah.
• 8:13
  Mark (2): Right.
• 8:13
  Mark (2): Yeah.
• 8:13
  Mark (2): That's how I got into it.
• 8:14
  Mark (2): You, you were waiters.
• 8:15
  Mark (2): I was gonna be a lawyer in New York City.
• 8:16
  Mark (2): You're gonna be a lawyer, you're gonna be an actor, you're gonna, you were, you, the whole restaurant business was about something you got into either because you didn't have other choices.
• 8:26
  Mark (2): Mm-hmm.
• 8:27
  Mark (2): Or because you were, you were on your way to someplace else and this was gonna help you play your way, flexible, pay your way to someplace else.
• 8:34
  Mark (2): Yeah.
• 8:35
  Mark (2): But that kind of changed around the time you're coming up now.
• 8:38
  Tim: Yeah.
• 8:38
  Mark (2): Things were different for you.
• 8:40
  Tim: Yeah, definitely.
• 8:41
  Tim: I mean, the, the rise of celebrity chefs at the time, Gordon Ramsey was at his height.
• 8:48
  Tim: Right.
• 8:48
  Tim: I mean, so I, and one of the other things I did, which I imagine is the same for both of you, is like, when you find a new passion or something you're interested in, oh yeah.
• 8:56
  Tim: You're like, let me buy every book I can about this.
• 8:59
  Tim: Like Marco Pierre, y.
• 9:01
  Tim: Gordon Ramsey.
• 9:02
  Tim: Weirdly, I was never a fan of Bourdain until I left the kitchen.
• 9:06
  Francis: Oh, really?
• 9:06
  Francis: Mm-hmm.
• 9:07
  Tim: I think because I had this this notion of like, I wanna do Michelin stars, I wanna do fine dining.
• 9:13
  Tim: Mm-hmm.
• 9:13
  Tim: And his was all about basically the things you're doing when you're not at work or the, the things you're doing at work, that's not work.
• 9:21
  Mark (2): Mm-hmm.
• 9:21
  Francis: You know, I, I found his book.
• 9:23
  Francis: So we're talking about kitchen Confidential.
• 9:25
  Francis: Yes.
• 9:25
  Francis: Yeah.
• 9:25
  Francis: I found that book so transformative.
• 9:27
  Francis: And Mark, I know you did too.
• 9:28
  Francis: And we had met Bourdain through this lunch club we belonged to, called the Red Meat Club when he was cooking.
• 9:35
  Francis: Uh, and we had made lunch for us a few times and, and you know, I just knew him casually.
• 9:39
  Francis: And then he wrote this book.
• 9:41
  Francis: And that was sort of the, that book pointed out all the craziness that went on and pointed out some of the passion and also pointed out some of the stuff that we just stopped doing.
• 9:50
  Francis: I think I, I think that book had a, a large influence on people saying, yeah, this is crazy.
• 9:55
  Francis: We shouldn't be doing this anymore.
• 9:57
  Francis: Yeah.
• 9:57
  Francis: Let's make this a make, let's make this a history, uh, as much of as a memoir, and let's, let's not, you know, have these crazy sexual ex escapades on the garbage can.
• 10:06
  Francis: Yeah.
• 10:06
  Francis: While the wedding is going on in the dining room.
• 10:08
  Francis: Let's not, let's not do that anymore.
• 10:10
  Francis: Exercise that,
• 10:10
  Mark (2): I mean, I remember reading it and thinking, why is this this guy popular?
• 10:16
  Mark (2): Right.
• 10:16
  Mark (2): He's, he's jerk.
• 10:18
  Mark (2): Mm-hmm.
• 10:18
  Francis: Right.
• 10:18
  Mark (2): And as you're reading through and you realize, and then, then you get to the last couple pages of the book and he talks about don't do this.
• 10:25
  Mark (2): Like, I did it, I did it wrong.
• 10:27
  Mark (2): Yeah.
• 10:27
  Mark (2): Here's a, here's the right way.
• 10:28
  Mark (2): Here's a, here's, it's kind of like there's a better way to do this.
• 10:32
  Mark (2): I.
• 10:33
  Mark (2): I was like, ah, crap.
• 10:35
  Mark (2): Now I like you.
• 10:36
  Francis: But it's also, I, I, I read the book with great fascination.
• 10:39
  Francis: It's kinda like a Tom Wait song, you know what I mean?
• 10:41
  Francis: It's
• 10:42
  Mark (2): like, well, I realize that book came out at the beginning of Bourdain's career.
• 10:44
  Mark (2): Career.
• 10:45
  Mark (2): Yeah.
• 10:45
  Mark (2): Bourdain has, how most people view Bourdain now is the things that happened after that book.
• 10:50
  Tim: Well, it's the, it's the beginning of the career, like you say, that most people know him for.
• 10:54
  Tim: Mm-hmm.
• 10:55
  Tim: And it's also a way that I've come to view my own time working in kitchens.
• 11:00
  Tim: Mm-hmm.
• 11:00
  Tim: Which is like, it's kind of a form of national service or being called upright.
• 11:06
  Tim: Mm-hmm.
• 11:06
  Tim: Interesting.
• 11:07
  Tim: Being in the armed forces for three years or whatever.
• 11:10
  Tim: Like it teaches you structure.
• 11:12
  Francis: Mm-hmm.
• 11:12
  Tim: It gives you values,
• 11:13
  Francis: it
• 11:13
  Tim: brings
• 11:14
  Francis: a bunch of different disparate people together on a project.
• 11:17
  Tim: Yes.
• 11:17
  Tim: Yeah.
• 11:17
  Tim: A
• 11:17
  Francis: hundred percent.
• 11:18
  Tim: Also, it goes too far in certain directions with certain things, with discipline, with things like that.
• 11:24
  Tim: Things fly that don't fly in an office.
• 11:26
  Tim: Yep.
• 11:27
  Tim: Mm-hmm.
• 11:27
  Francis: Um.
• 11:28
  Tim: But that was the same for Anthony Bourdain, I think, in a way.
• 11:32
  Tim: Right.
• 11:32
  Tim: Like he never claimed to be a world class chef.
• 11:36
  Tim: Yeah.
• 11:36
  Tim: Right.
• 11:36
  Tim: Yeah.
• 11:36
  Tim: He was always very humble and he like being a chef.
• 11:40
  Tim: And I think about this, not that I'm comparing ourselves, but I think about my own experiences.
• 11:44
  Tim: Like it gave me context for so many things.
• 11:48
  Tim: Yeah, sure.
• 11:48
  Tim: For being able to talk about food.
• 11:50
  Mark (2): Mm-hmm.
• 11:50
  Tim: Opens your eyes to drinks and taking drinks and wine seriously and things like that.
• 11:55
  Mark (2): But who knew that moment was going to be change the direction Yeah.
• 12:00
  Mark (2): Of restaurants.
• 12:00
  Mark (2): Yeah.
• 12:01
  Mark (2): Mm-hmm.
• 12:01
  Mark (2): Yeah.
• 12:01
  Mark (2): Because that's what he did at that moment.
• 12:03
  Mark (2): Yeah.
• 12:03
  Mark (2): When he said, don't do it this way.
• 12:06
  Francis: Yeah.
• 12:07
  Mark (2): He changed the directions of restaurant, I think, forever.
• 12:10
  Francis: We are one of the few businesses left where we make something.
• 12:15
  Francis: And sell it to you.
• 12:16
  Francis: The shoe store doesn't make shoes.
• 12:18
  Francis: Yeah.
• 12:18
  Francis: The hardware store doesn't make hammers.
• 12:20
  Francis: The grocery store doesn't grow chickens, but the restaurant makes your food.
• 12:25
  Francis: It's a factory as well as a store and that whole operation, there's something very old fashioned about it.
• 12:31
  Francis: And, and I think, I think that's why people like it so much.
• 12:34
  Tim: Yeah.
• 12:34
  Tim: And I think then you look at certain restaurants that are even like growing everything and you're like talking about the whole journey Right.
• 12:40
  Tim: To, to, to guests.
• 12:41
  Tim: I will say though, just like my, my final thoughts on like the Bourdain topic and, and what we're talking about here mm-hmm.
• 12:47
  Tim: Is I think ultimately his fame and what he went on to achieve and how people came to idolize him
• 12:58
  Francis: mm-hmm.
• 12:58
  Tim: Was actually a bad thing for kitchen culture.
• 13:02
  Tim: Even if it was a good thing for restaurant and food culture.
• 13:05
  Francis: How so?
• 13:07
  Tim: I think that a lot of people didn't take it as advice or didn't make it to the end of the book.
• 13:12
  Francis: Yeah.
• 13:13
  Tim: And said, let's continue to, to do things this way.
• 13:18
  Tim: Mm-hmm.
• 13:18
  Tim: And I think another one, and, and it's nowhere near as big as a a of a cultural impact, but I think it's similar is a show like The Bear.
• 13:27
  Francis: Yeah.
• 13:27
  Francis: Mm-hmm.
• 13:28
  Francis: Yeah.
• 13:28
  Tim: Right.
• 13:28
  Tim: Like on the one hand, you get people interested in food like me that way where you're like, wow, I didn't realize you could treat food this way.
• 13:35
  Francis: Right.
• 13:35
  Tim: But on the other, they're going into an industry and they're saying, I expect to work 16 hours without a break.
• 13:43
  Tim: Mm-hmm.
• 13:44
  Tim: I expect to be shouted at, I expect my chef to be on the verge of a mental breakdown at all times.
• 13:50
  Tim: And I think you perpetuate that, right?
• 13:53
  Tim: Like I had that own experience myself.
• 13:55
  Tim: I came in having read all of the Gordon Ramsey, the Marco Pierre White books, and I went into kitchens.
• 14:01
  Tim: Being like, okay, I'm gonna get shouted at like, this is just par for the course.
• 14:05
  Tim: Mm-hmm.
• 14:05
  Tim: This is the industry and so it's self perpetuating.
• 14:09
  Francis: But I think it's it's changed now though, don't you?
• 14:11
  Tim: I haven't worked in kitchens in,
• 14:13
  Francis: uh, I'll tell you that
• 14:14
  Tim: 12
• 14:14
  Francis: years.
• 14:14
  Francis: I think it's
• 14:15
  Mark (2): changing.
• 14:15
  Mark (2): It's not, it's not,
• 14:17
  Francis: that's
• 14:17
  Mark (2): still happens
• 14:18
  Francis: to some extent.
• 14:18
  Francis: I extent I think it, it was happening 40% as much as it was, and I think since COVID it's, it's happening mm-hmm.
• 14:23
  Francis: Much less than it was.
• 14:24
  Francis: 'cause people just wouldn't tolerate that.
• 14:26
  Francis: Yeah.
• 14:26
  Francis: And and good for them.
• 14:27
  Francis: Yeah.
• 14:27
  Francis: They'll be like, yep, I'm not putting up with this.
• 14:28
  Francis: And they'll walk right out the door.
• 14:29
  Francis: Yeah.
• 14:29
  Francis: You know, and I think, I think that's okay.
• 14:32
  Francis: I think that's okay.
• 14:33
  Francis: Um, so let's take the next step in the journey.
• 14:37
  Francis: So you were working in London.
• 14:38
  Francis: Where were the best places you worked in London and then how did you get to Buenos Aires?
• 14:42
  Tim: So, I, my first job in London was, working for a five star Marriott Hotel in Westminster overlooking the houses of Parliament right in front of, um, the London.
• 14:54
  Tim: I.
• 14:55
  Tim: Yeah.
• 14:55
  Tim: But weirdly enough, I went into that job and I'm like, no one's shouting at me.
• 14:59
  Tim: No one's working 16 hour days.
• 15:01
  Tim: Mm-hmm.
• 15:01
  Tim: No one is obsessing over this food.
• 15:03
  Tim: You know, like hotels and Yeah.
• 15:05
  Tim: Chain hotels are so different to restaurants.
• 15:07
  Tim: Yeah.
• 15:07
  Tim: Yeah.
• 15:07
  Francis: Very different.
• 15:08
  Tim: So someone who I was at college with was working for this chef called Bruno Lu Bay, who had just returned to London after doing a like 10 year hiatus in Australia.
• 15:20
  Tim: Originally a French chef and like had cooked at the highest level in the army.
• 15:24
  Tim: you know, this, this man was born to cook.
• 15:27
  Tim: Right, right.
• 15:27
  Tim: It was, you know, that's his
• 15:28
  Francis: whole life.
• 15:28
  Tim: It was his whole life.
• 15:30
  Tim: Um.
• 15:31
  Tim: And so my friend and and classmate was working there and he said, look, he's looking for another apprentice.
• 15:36
  Tim: He likes the fact we're cheap.
• 15:37
  Tim: We'll work long hours.
• 15:38
  Tim: Yeah, yeah.
• 15:38
  Tim: And like, you'll do all the terrible jobs.
• 15:41
  Tim: And so I was like, great, sign me up.
• 15:43
  Tim: So I started working for Bruno, a place called Bistro, Bruno Lu Bay, uh, just before my first year of college ended.
• 15:50
  Mark (2): Mm-hmm.
• 15:50
  Tim: And then I stayed with Bruno the entire time I was in London, and we opened up a second restaurant, uh, a few years into my time with him.
• 16:00
  Tim: I forget the exact, uh, year it was called the Grain Store.
• 16:03
  Tim: And it doesn't sound very revolutionary now, but the whole concept of the grain store was grains, vegetables, different fibers, things like that took up most of the plate.
• 16:14
  Francis: Mm-hmm.
• 16:14
  Francis: Okay.
• 16:15
  Tim: And meat and fish and protein were, were kind of the side and the afterthought.
• 16:19
  Francis: Uhhuh.
• 16:19
  Tim: And, you know, he was like, this is better for the planet.
• 16:22
  Tim: This is better for us.
• 16:22
  Tim: That's how most
• 16:23
  Francis: oil eats.
• 16:23
  Tim: Yeah.
• 16:23
  Francis: Right.
• 16:24
  Francis: You knows that's Well, and let's, and it is funny'cause a lot of these things where we talk about, and you, you say them in retrospect and you're like.
• 16:30
  Francis: Yeah.
• 16:30
  Francis: Yeah, I heard about that.
• 16:31
  Francis: But at the time, you hadn't heard about that.
• 16:33
  Francis: Yeah.
• 16:33
  Francis: You know, like
• 16:34
  Mark (2): 20 years ago you were, no one was talking about that are very few people.
• 16:37
  Francis: you might hear people say that all the time and they're like, oh yeah, ho hum.
• 16:40
  Francis: But like, no, we were first.
• 16:41
  Francis: Yeah.
• 16:41
  Francis: You know, we, we coined that, you know,
• 16:43
  Tim: we had to teach our waiters and servers what quinoa was.
• 16:48
  Tim: No one had heard of it.
• 16:49
  Tim: And you're like, it, the miracle grain of the end, it's the
• 16:51
  Francis: miracle
• 16:51
  Tim McK Seq Audio: grain
• 16:51
  Tim: of
• 16:52
  Francis: the is correct.
• 16:52
  Francis: Yeah.
• 16:52
  Tim: Yeah.
• 16:53
  Tim: The extent to which, you know, it was taken away.
• 16:55
  Francis: So you have great, you have great success there.
• 16:57
  Tim: Mm-hmm.
• 16:58
  Francis: How do you get to Buenos Aires?
• 16:59
  Tim: So I wanted to learn Spanish or I, my other thing, so it was all about like.
• 17:06
  Tim: My passions growing up were like English, writing, reading.
• 17:09
  Tim: Mm-hmm.
• 17:10
  Tim: Uh, and languages.
• 17:11
  Tim: And I was just fascinated by this idea that like, what would it be like to understand the second language or people talk about when you learn it, like start dreaming mm-hmm.
• 17:20
  Tim: In a different language.
• 17:20
  Tim: I'm like, this seems like the most magical thing to me.
• 17:23
  Tim: So, uh, my partner at the time, she, she was from Argentina or she was Argentine American and we couldn't get into this country at the time.
• 17:33
  Tim: Oh.
• 17:33
  Tim: So, uh, we were like, well, let's go to Argentina.
• 17:35
  Tim: Like, I've always wanted to learn a second language and I had visited once and it was incredible and we're like, well, maybe I can also like work less hours and have more of a life.
• 17:46
  Tim: Didn't turn out to be the case.
• 17:47
  Tim: No.
• 17:47
  Tim: But that was part of it.
• 17:48
  Tim: And, uh, it was great.
• 17:50
  Tim: And, and moving out there, you know, I had this experience that was.
• 17:55
  Tim: So I saved up some money and it was cheaper to, to live out there, so I figured I'd probably have like a six month runway to like not have to work to learn the language, go to college there and do like eng uh, Spanish as a, as a foreign language.
• 18:07
  Tim: And, uh, well, my, my maths weren't very good and you know, there was a lot of inflation at the time, so money wasn't going as far.
• 18:14
  Francis: Wait, so did you go over with, with, with Sterling, or did you, or did you convert your money to Argentine?
• 18:20
  Tim: Oh, no, no, no.
• 18:21
  Tim: So dollars, I, the currency is a whole weird thing there, so Oh, it's crazy there.
• 18:25
  Tim: Yeah.
• 18:25
  Tim: There's an official exchange rate, which is way below, like there's a street where you can go and Oh, yeah,
• 18:29
  Mark (2): yeah.
• 18:30
  Mark (2): Oh yeah.
• 18:30
  Tim: So I went of countries over like that where you,
• 18:33
  Mark (2): you take your, your greenbacks and Yeah.
• 18:35
  Tim: Yeah.
• 18:35
  Mark (2): Hand'em to a guy on the street and he hands you more money than the bank would've.
• 18:38
  Tim: Yeah.
• 18:38
  Tim: And you can't get that money out of the account.
• 18:40
  Tim: Mm-hmm.
• 18:40
  Tim: So what most expats would do is they go to Montevideo for the day on the ferry from Buenos Aires, and they, they go, they take their dollars out, and then they come back at night.
• 18:49
  Tim: It's like a little day trip.
• 18:50
  Jenifer: Mm-hmm.
• 18:50
  Jenifer: Yeah.
• 18:51
  Tim: But money was running out and I was like, okay, well also good would be good to get a job.
• 18:55
  Tim: And I'd, I'd found five restaurants in the neighborhood that I lived in that had some repute that looked like, okay, I wanna be a line cook here.
• 19:04
  Tim: I don't want any responsibility.
• 19:06
  Tim: I just wanna learn the language and get the lay of the land.
• 19:09
  Tim: The first four of them asked me for a resume and I was like, well, I don't have one in Spanish, but also, what are you gonna do?
• 19:16
  Tim: Like call my references?
• 19:17
  Tim: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 19:18
  Tim: Like, I couldn't say that, but I was like, what use is this gonna be for you guys?
• 19:21
  Tim: Right.
• 19:21
  Francis: I'm gonna be a line cook in your restaurant.
• 19:23
  Tim: Yeah,
• 19:23
  Francis: yeah.
• 19:23
  Tim: The fifth place I went to knocked on the door said in bad Spanish like, are you looking for any chefs?
• 19:30
  Tim: And this guy opened a hatch and he closed it and he opened the door and he said in perfect English, it was a Colombian guy called Charlie.
• 19:38
  Tim: And he goes, nice to meet you.
• 19:39
  Tim: I'm Charlie, I'm the head chef, and I'm leaving next week.
• 19:42
  Tim: And the owners are desperate for a new head chef.
• 19:44
  Tim: I'm calling them now.
• 19:45
  Francis: So you, wow.
• 19:47
  Francis: So you got offered the head chef position
• 19:48
  Tim: and they basically said to me like, look, if you take, if you don't take this job, like we might shut our restaurant by the end of the month.
• 19:57
  Mark (2): Wow.
• 19:57
  Mark (2): I, I, you know, that's an amazing, amazing story.
• 20:00
  Mark (2): That's great.
• 20:01
  Mark (2): So many times in the restaurant business, it is literally about knocking on the right door at the right time.
• 20:09
  Mark (2): If you're out there knocking on doors, somebody just lost a bartender.
• 20:13
  Mark (2): Somebody just lost a waiter.
• 20:14
  Mark (2): Yeah, that's, it's, it's a transient, I'm not sure if you transient business.
• 20:17
  Francis: I'm, I'm not sure if you remember this, but that's how I got my job as a bartender at The Frog and the Peach,
• 20:20
  Mark (2): for instance.
• 20:21
  Francis: Do you remember that story?
• 20:22
  Mark (2): No.
• 20:23
  Francis: So, TJ phone, I, it wasn't that greatest a story, but it's a little relevant here.
• 20:28
  Francis: So, uh, my CI worked at my cousin's restaurant and he, he trained me how to work behind his bar, but it didn't really work for him.
• 20:33
  Francis: But he lied and told people I had experience'cause that's your first bartending job.
• 20:37
  Francis: Um, and then I, I was, I, I wanted to work at this place called The Frog and the Peach.
• 20:41
  Francis: I wanted to work at this place called The Frog and the Peach.
• 20:44
  Francis: And, um, I had applied and I like knew somebody who was a regular customer there.
• 20:49
  Francis: And I had a fake resume and I kept, I went in a few times and I walked in one day and TJ Rero was behind the bar.
• 20:56
  Francis: Become a great friend of mine, still friends to this day.
• 20:58
  Francis: Um, one of a great influence in my restaurant life.
• 21:01
  Francis: And, uh, I said.
• 21:03
  Francis: Hi.
• 21:03
  Francis: I just checking to see if you have anything.
• 21:05
  Francis: I, I'm sure he had never read my resume and said, you're the guy who wants to be a bartender, right?
• 21:10
  Francis: I was like, yeah, he is like, you're hired, when can you start?
• 21:12
  Francis: I was like, tomorrow.
• 21:14
  Francis: And he's like, so I went back and I tried the next day tomorrow and what I found out years later was that the night before the bartender had like opened up the bar to the staff, turned on the music really loud and had a big coke party for everybody that the owner found out about and fired the bartender who worked most of the shifts and TJ's like, I don't know what I'm gonna do on Thursday.
• 21:31
  Francis: And I walked in the door Justice.
• 21:33
  Francis: He got that news and that's how I got hired at the Frog and the peach best decision they ever made, by the way.
• 21:38
  Francis: Thank you Jim and Betsy.
• 21:40
  Francis: So, alright, so you become the head chef at this place.
• 21:42
  Francis: You don't speak the language.
• 21:43
  Francis: Mm-hmm.
• 21:44
  Francis: Do you have a team that you, you're, you're heading up?
• 21:46
  Tim: Yeah.
• 21:46
  Tim: So the owners, um, were they, they were a couple, um, he was Argentine, he was from Buenos Aires and she was French.
• 21:55
  Tim: They both spoke perfect English and they, little did, I know they both had a lot of experience when it came to hiring expats.
• 22:04
  Tim: They were just like, generally they have a better work ethic, their words not mine, uhhuh.
• 22:08
  Tim: And they, they understand the kitchen more, so they didn't care about.
• 22:13
  Tim: Your proficiency with Spanish.
• 22:15
  Tim: They were like, don't worry, you'll learn.
• 22:17
  Tim: I would rather have someone who speaks no Spanish, but has experience in kitchens in the us mm-hmm.
• 22:23
  Tim: Speaks hard work.
• 22:23
  Tim: Uh, exactly.
• 22:23
  Tim: Yeah.
• 22:23
  Francis: Yeah.
• 22:24
  Tim: So I'm like, look guys, I really don't know about this.
• 22:27
  Tim: Like, I've, I've been like a senior sous chef, junior, uh, junior sous chef, senior chef depart.
• 22:31
  Tim: But I'm like, I've never been a head chef.
• 22:33
  Tim: Mm-hmm.
• 22:33
  Tim: Let alone in a country where I don't speak the language.
• 22:36
  Tim: So our kitchen team, there was, there was three guys that, that worked with me, did not speak a word of English, and they had this habit of speaking 24 hours a day on top of the music that was playing Argentine rock nationale all day as well.
• 22:53
  Tim: Mm.
• 22:54
  Tim: So it was just immersion.
• 22:56
  Francis: Mm-hmm.
• 22:56
  Francis: So how, so what was the success?
• 22:58
  Francis: How, how did that, how did it, how did it go?
• 23:00
  Tim: It was great.
• 23:01
  Tim: I mean, look, we, success can be defined, I think for myself by many different factors.
• 23:07
  Tim: We were in a period of 40% inflation at the time.
• 23:11
  Tim: Wow.
• 23:11
  Francis: That's low for Argentina, isn't it?
• 23:13
  Francis: That's like hard for the standard.
• 23:15
  Mark (2): I'm gonna need a raise next week and the week after.
• 23:18
  Mark (2): And
• 23:18
  Francis: the week after.
• 23:19
  Francis: Are kidding.
• 23:19
  Francis: They're in, in Argentina.
• 23:20
  Francis: They, they had people who were changing the prices during the course of the, of the, of the business day.
• 23:23
  Tim: Absolutely.
• 23:24
  Tim: Yeah.
• 23:24
  Tim: All the
• 23:25
  Tim McK Seq Audio: time.
• 23:25
  Francis: You're like, I'm gonna need a raise.
• 23:26
  Francis: A raise by four o'clock, please.
• 23:28
  Francis: You know,
• 23:29
  Tim: so for us it was like, you can print the menu, but you can't print prices on there because it changes so often and we can't afford to keep printing these menus.
• 23:38
  Tim: Then on top of that, it's just like, yeah.
• 23:40
  Tim: I was used to having two deliveries per day in London, apart from Sundays.
• 23:45
  Tim: Right.
• 23:45
  Tim: For anything.
• 23:46
  Tim McK Seq Audio: Right?
• 23:46
  Francis: Mm-hmm.
• 23:46
  Tim: Right.
• 23:47
  Tim: This, I'm like, I can get fish delivered twice a week.
• 23:50
  Francis: Yeah.
• 23:50
  Francis: Yeah.
• 23:51
  Tim: And meat three times a week and then suddenly inexplicably like your onions cost more per pound than fill.
• 23:59
  Tim: It staked us.
• 24:00
  Tim: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 24:01
  Tim: And we have french onion soup on the menu.
• 24:02
  Tim: It's like, well how can we keep this on the menu?
• 24:04
  Tim: 'cause it's like a local's favorite, not change the price.
• 24:08
  Tim: Mm-hmm.
• 24:08
  Tim: But fix the margins elsewhere to get us through this two week period where onions are the most expensive thing that are coming through the door.
• 24:16
  Francis: So how long did you do that, and what kind of success did you have?
• 24:19
  Tim: So I worked there for exactly a year.
• 24:21
  Francis: Mm-hmm.
• 24:22
  Tim: Um, you know, we got, we, we, we were a big part of like the community.
• 24:27
  Tim: We got good write-ups.
• 24:28
  Tim: Like there, there was nothing like michellin or anything like that.
• 24:31
  Tim: Right.
• 24:31
  Tim: But for me, it was just going into this, learning the language.
• 24:36
  Tim: Also doing things like, okay, we wanna make our own bacon.
• 24:39
  Tim: We wanna make our own smoked salmon.
• 24:41
  Tim: Mm-hmm.
• 24:41
  Tim: We have no money for a smoker.
• 24:43
  Tim: And we walked out of the restaurant one night and we're like, we we're gonna build this smoker.
• 24:47
  Tim: We're gonna figure out how to do it.
• 24:49
  Tim: And we saw a discarded fridge on fridge freezer on the street, but it was upside down
• 24:54
  Francis: uhhuh,
• 24:54
  Tim: which is exactly what we've been planning to do.
• 24:56
  Tim: So we're like, well, we, if we hollow out the space between the freezer and the fridge, then we can put a funnel in there and we can cold smoke in the bottom and it already has all this stuff.
• 25:06
  Francis: Mm-hmm.
• 25:06
  Tim: Yeah.
• 25:06
  Tim: So we started smoke and we, we were using every part of every animal that came in.
• 25:10
  Tim: I love that.
• 25:11
  Tim: Yeah.
• 25:11
  Tim: There was no wastage.
• 25:12
  Tim: We were, and we were making a profit in a time of 40%.
• 25:15
  Tim: That's inflation.
• 25:15
  Tim: Which I was just like.
• 25:17
  Tim: That to me was the success of that place.
• 26:46
  Francis: Well, I really wanted to get down to your backstory and we have now accomplished your backstory.
• 26:50
  Francis: We're gonna take a quick break and it feels weird, like announcing a quick break in your studio.
• 26:55
  Francis: I feel, I feel this is odd, but okay.
• 26:58
  Francis: This is our studio.
• 26:59
  Francis: Come on.
• 26:59
  Francis: Oh, for today.
• 27:00
  Francis: Um, we're gonna take a quick break When we come back on the other side, I want to talk about how you moved to New York and took over the world and turned to writing and podcasting and your new podcast.
• 27:09
  Francis: We'll be back in just a moment.
• 27:10
  Francis: You can find out more about Tim McCurdy and about us@restaurantguyspodcast.com.
• 27:16
  Francis: Hey there everybody.
• 27:16
  Francis: Welcome back to the wonderful journey of the life of Tim McCurdy.
• 27:20
  Francis: Who knew, by the way, I love the backstory we've gotten to so far, but we first encountered you.
• 27:26
  Francis: Mm-hmm.
• 27:26
  Francis: When we listened to the cocktail college podcast on Vine Pair.
• 27:30
  Francis: First of all, vine Pair is great We are a baby podcast compared to the Vine Compare Network.
• 27:35
  Francis: First of all, we listen to a lot of their stuff and we read their stuff.
• 27:37
  Francis: It's great.
• 27:37
  Francis: And I know you were an editor there.
• 27:39
  Francis: Mm-hmm.
• 27:39
  Francis: They continue to be great after you're gone, believe it or not.
• 27:41
  Francis: Absolutely.
• 27:41
  Francis: And we, we all support them, but they a little
• 27:43
  Mark (2): less great.
• 27:44
  Mark (2): All right.
• 27:44
  Francis: But May a little less great.
• 27:45
  Francis: You, but they, but they, they brought in I think 2023 or 24.
• 27:49
  Francis: They brought in$10 million.
• 27:51
  Francis: But, so to our, uh, paid members, we'd like you to step it up a little bit because please call No,
• 27:57
  Mark (2): no to our unpaid
• 27:58
  Francis: members.
• 27:58
  Francis: Yeah, yeah.
• 27:58
  Francis: To our
• 27:59
  Mark (2): paid members.
• 27:59
  Mark (2): You're doing fine.
• 28:00
  Francis: Yeah, yeah.
• 28:00
  Francis: Exactly.
• 28:01
  Francis: If you're, if you're listening to this and you haven't chipped in yet, could you please go to restaurant guys podcast.com and become a member?
• 28:07
  Francis: We gotta give Vine Power a run for their money.
• 28:09
  Francis: I just need about 10 million of you to donate a dollar and everything will be, everything will be great.
• 28:14
  Francis: Alright, so the next step on the journey, Tim McCurdy comes to America.
• 28:19
  Francis: Mm-hmm.
• 28:19
  Francis: And I discovered Vine Pair through the Cocktail College podcast.
• 28:22
  Francis: Right.
• 28:22
  Francis: And I listened.
• 28:23
  Francis: And, and so here's the thing.
• 28:26
  Francis: A lot of podcasts are fun and.
• 28:29
  Francis: They're wrong about stuff.
• 28:30
  Francis: You know, don't you listen to a podcast?
• 28:31
  Francis: You're like, oh, she's very nice, but that's not right.
• 28:34
  Francis: Um.
• 28:35
  Francis: You guys, I, we, I learned thing every time I listen to the cocktail college and many times with other Vine parrot shows, you guys really get it right.
• 28:43
  Francis: And I'm older and I've been doing this for a long time and I learned something every time I listened to the cocktail college podcast.
• 28:52
  Francis: How did Tim McCurdy get from Buenos Aires to New York and switch to journalism or podcasting or whatever this is that we do?
• 28:59
  Tim: Sure.
• 28:59
  Tim: And that's very kind of you to say.
• 29:00
  Tim: So thank you very much.
• 29:01
  Tim: And uh, that's a testament to the great guests that we had on that show, including e episode number 200, which I think folks should seek out for that one.
• 29:11
  Tim: A very special one
• 29:12
  Francis: bicentennial episode with the restaurant guys.
• 29:15
  Tim: But, um, so while I was, while I was working in the kitchen in Argentina, um, family meal would happen at the end of every day after the shift.
• 29:24
  Tim: People tend to eat very late there normally.
• 29:26
  Tim: So this was like 3:00 AM every night.
• 29:28
  Francis: So what, what time does dinner start in Argentina?
• 29:31
  Tim: Well, if you, so we would open the doors at eight, but if you turned up at eight, it was considered rude.
• 29:36
  Tim: Yeah.
• 29:36
  Tim: If you went to eat out before 9:00 PM
• 29:39
  Francis: Yeah.
• 29:39
  Tim: That was not cool.
• 29:40
  Tim: And you would be annoyed as the chef, you'd be like, who's this asshole at the door?
• 29:44
  Francis: But
• 29:45
  Tim: the ringing on the door to come in at 8:00 PM
• 29:47
  Francis: but the hot reservation is 10
• 29:48
  Tim: 10 30.
• 29:49
  Tim: Yeah.
• 29:49
  Francis: 10 30.
• 29:50
  Francis: Yeah.
• 29:50
  Francis: I could, I we should go to Buenos Aires.
• 29:51
  Francis: Mark.
• 29:51
  Francis: Can we go to Buenos Aires?
• 29:52
  Francis: Yes.
• 29:53
  Francis: It's very much in our milieu.
• 29:55
  Tim: Um, so anyway, the Psalm would pour wine every day for us.
• 29:59
  Tim: And I became fascinated by wine and obviously it's, you know, a wine country.
• 30:03
  Tim: And I said, well, why don't I take a little wine course to learn more about this and also to improve my Spanish'cause I'd rather do that than learn about verbs and adjectives and things like that.
• 30:12
  Tim: Mm-hmm.
• 30:13
  Tim: Um, and at the back of my mind was always this idea as well that I'd like initially wanted to be a writer and get into journalism.
• 30:21
  Tim: And so I started to think about moving out of the kitchen and, and moving out the industry, not working six days a week and.
• 30:28
  Tim: You know, just like better conditions.
• 30:30
  Tim: And I thought, well, I want, I don't wanna be in any other aspect of hospitality.
• 30:35
  Tim: I like working in the kitchen too much, so how can I be adjacent to it?
• 30:39
  Tim: And I started pitching publications with drinks content, and food content from someone who is based in Argentina, but who spoke English.
• 30:49
  Jenifer: Mm.
• 30:49
  Tim: And so it, in the early days, it was like vice munchies.
• 30:52
  Tim: Mm-hmm.
• 30:54
  Tim: Got some bylines there, some other more like specific but smaller wine publications.
• 30:59
  Tim: And then through just a series of life events, ended up moving briefly to Cambodia and then finally making it here to New York.
• 31:07
  Tim: And I started, I was waiting for like a work visa, uh, and I started cold pitching all of the publications that that focused on booze.
• 31:17
  Tim: 'cause I figured to our point about Bourdain earlier, the food writing market was so saturated.
• 31:24
  Tim: Yeah.
• 31:24
  Tim: And you had so many people who like went to the CIA for three months.
• 31:29
  Tim: Yeah.
• 31:29
  Tim: Maybe did half a day in a kitchen and they're like, right, I have all the experience now I'm gonna be Antony Bourdain.
• 31:34
  Tim: And there's like, there's only one and there only will ever be one Bourdain.
• 31:38
  Tim: Right.
• 31:38
  Tim: So I was like, I'll go with drinks and I'm newly interested in wine and.
• 31:43
  Tim: I reached out to all these publications, I said, look, I don't know what the equivalent of an unpaid intern does at your publication, but like, I wanna see how things go on behind the scenes.
• 31:55
  Tim: Like I've been pitching editors as a freelancer and not hearing back, or not hearing or getting turned down and not really having an understanding of like, why doesn't this story make sense?
• 32:07
  Tim: Right?
• 32:07
  Tim: What are they looking for?
• 32:08
  Tim: Publication?
• 32:09
  Tim: So I reached out to everyone and, and got a few people who actually answered me.
• 32:13
  Tim: I'm like, look, whatever the, whatever the editorial equivalent is of getting in first thing in the morning, putting on veal stock, picking herbs, I'll do it for you.
• 32:25
  Tim: I'll peel your vegetables.
• 32:26
  Tim: Like whatever that is, bring me on.
• 32:28
  Tim: I'm not looking for money.
• 32:29
  Tim: And everyone was like, well, it's illegal to work for free, so you have to, and you have to have your visa.
• 32:33
  Tim: So I'm like, okay, I'm waiting for that sort out.
• 32:35
  Tim: And a few places got back to me, one of which was Vine Pair.
• 32:38
  Tim: And it was great.
• 32:39
  Tim: I mean, the editor at the time, Emily Saladino, who now works with uh, I think Inba and she went to Wine Enthusiast.
• 32:46
  Tim: Mm-hmm.
• 32:46
  Tim: She had spent some time in a kitchen as well.
• 32:48
  Tim: So I think I was luckily there, maybe that resonated a bit.
• 32:52
  Tim: Uh, but really it was, well, like the co-founders, Adam and Josh, like I met with them.
• 32:56
  Tim: They were very hands-on and they, they were like, yeah, let's give it a shot.
• 33:00
  Francis: They're great guys.
• 33:00
  Francis: Very
• 33:01
  Tim: smart
• 33:01
  Francis: guys.
• 33:01
  Mark (2): Yeah.
• 33:01
  Mark (2): Really smart.
• 33:02
  Mark (2): Really know the business.
• 33:03
  Mark (2): Yeah.
• 33:03
  Mark (2): Mm-hmm.
• 33:04
  Mark (2): Really know your, the business of podcasting and the business of Yeah.
• 33:08
  Mark (2): Restaurants and
• 33:09
  Tim: Totally
• 33:10
  Mark (2): food.
• 33:11
  Tim: And so I was the luckiest intern in the world where I've been doing that for like three weeks and then a staff position opened up and they said, well, you know, you should think about applying.
• 33:22
  Tim: And so I applied and was lucky to get that job because there really are very few also like staff jobs in drinks.
• 33:29
  Tim: Media or Food.
• 33:30
  Tim: Oh, writing, absolutely.
• 33:31
  Tim: And writing.
• 33:32
  Tim: I was right place, right time, but I think you make your own luck.
• 33:35
  Tim: And I had my own experience and was the one who was doing that called Outreach, and that was seven and a half years ago.
• 33:42
  Francis: And didn't you wind up as, were you managing editor at the end or were you just
• 33:45
  Tim: editor?
• 33:45
  Tim: I was managing editor at the end.
• 33:47
  Tim: I started out, yeah.
• 33:48
  Tim: So intern and then Steph Wright.
• 33:49
  Tim: Did you
• 33:49
  Francis: play the lottery?
• 33:52
  Francis: Uh, I'd like a job as a line cook.
• 33:54
  Francis: How about you be the executive chef?
• 33:55
  Francis: Okay.
• 33:56
  Francis: But listen, uh, I would like to be an intern.
• 33:58
  Francis: Oh, you're the managing editor.
• 34:00
  Mark (2): We live in a world now where everybody thinks the best thing for their career is to keep changing and keep moving and keep changing.
• 34:09
  Mark (2): And that's simply not always the case.
• 34:11
  Mark (2): Yeah.
• 34:11
  Mark (2): Yeah.
• 34:11
  Mark (2): Sometimes the best thing in the world is to work in the right place and continue to grow and move your way up in the right place.
• 34:20
  Mark (2): Yeah.
• 34:20
  Mark (2): And listen, the cream rises.
• 34:22
  Mark (2): Yeah.
• 34:23
  Mark (2): and I hate to call you the cream, but you know, that's what happens.
• 34:26
  Mark (2): The cream rises.
• 34:27
  Francis: It is a little odd.
• 34:28
  Francis: Mark.
• 34:30
  Francis: I'm a little uncomfortable to be, to be fair.
• 34:32
  Mark (2): Listen, skim milk.
• 34:34
  Francis: Okay.
• 34:35
  Francis: Half and half.
• 34:36
  Francis: I don't even know what that means.
• 34:37
  Francis: I just wanted to go with it.
• 34:39
  Francis: Um, uh, anyway, be careful that we'll be whipping cream enough.
• 34:42
  Francis: Please.
• 34:43
  Francis: We'll stop.
• 34:43
  Francis: Okay.
• 34:44
  Francis: the cocktail college podcast, was that your idea?
• 34:46
  Francis: Because Yeah.
• 34:47
  Francis: Okay.
• 34:47
  Francis: Vine pair, we should explain is a kind of a media company.
• 34:50
  Francis: Yeah.
• 34:50
  Francis: Have several podcasts, several newsletters.
• 34:52
  Francis: They have a Substack, right?
• 34:53
  Francis: They have a Substack.
• 34:53
  Francis: Is that what the report?
• 34:54
  Francis: Uh,
• 34:55
  Tim: yes.
• 34:56
  Francis: Look, it's always a good read.
• 34:57
  Francis: The editorial content there is some of the best in this and,
• 35:00
  Mark (2): and Instagram, they're,
• 35:01
  Francis: they're
• 35:01
  Mark (2): really good.
• 35:01
  Mark (2): They're on the present.
• 35:03
  Mark (2): I mean, they're just, they're, they're doing every and everything.
• 35:05
  Mark (2): They do.
• 35:05
  Mark (2): They do.
• 35:05
  Mark (2): Well,
• 35:06
  Francis: yeah.
• 35:06
  Francis: But was so Pod the Cocktail College podcast ended when you left there?
• 35:10
  Francis: So was that your, was that your baby from beginning to end?
• 35:13
  Tim: Yeah, so I've been listening to podcasts for 20 years now.
• 35:18
  Tim: Uhhuh, I would say conservatively.
• 35:20
  Tim: And I love it.
• 35:21
  Tim: It's my favorite, you know, form of media.
• 35:23
  Tim: Um, I will plan my day around doing stuff.
• 35:27
  Tim: So I'm like, okay, well if I go to the grocery store, then I'm gonna come back.
• 35:29
  Tim: I'm gonna do meal prep.
• 35:30
  Tim: I can get like three hours in of listening to shows and stuff, right?
• 35:33
  Tim: Mm-hmm.
• 35:34
  Tim: Mm-hmm.
• 35:34
  Tim: Uh,'cause being an editor or a writer, terrible job.
• 35:37
  Tim: If you wanna listen to podcasts while you're working, right.
• 35:40
  Tim: It's, you just can't do it.
• 35:41
  Tim: Mm-hmm.
• 35:41
  Tim: So I'd been listening forever.
• 35:45
  Tim: Uh, they.
• 35:47
  Tim: When I joined Vine Pair, they had just revamped the Vine Pair podcast or just launched the Vine Pair podcast as we know it today.
• 35:54
  Tim: Mm-hmm.
• 35:55
  Tim: And I was like, oh, that's really cool.
• 35:56
  Tim: Like, in the back of my mind I was like, I'd love one day the opportunity to pitch a show or to, you know, work on a podcast with them.
• 36:03
  Tim: And years later we, we launched a podcast that, that, that wasn't quite successful, but I thought it was like really great.
• 36:11
  Tim: It was called End of Day Drinks.
• 36:13
  Tim: And we launched it just before the pandemic.
• 36:16
  Tim: And the whole idea was right, like everyone was doing drinks at the end of the day and the pandemic, then there was no, end of the day, there was no end of the day, but, you know, and it was like, there
• 36:24
  Mark (2): was just the day and then the next day and then the next day.
• 36:26
  Francis: So, so, okay.
• 36:27
  Francis: So that goes, that doesn't
• 36:28
  Tim: go.
• 36:28
  Tim: So we launched that and we were like basically everyone on the editorial team if they were available that day.
• 36:35
  Tim: And if they hadn't booked the guest, they're like, you booked, the guest would be on that show.
• 36:40
  Tim: So that got me the first taste of it and I'm like, okay, this is great.
• 36:43
  Tim: This is where I can see why maybe this didn't quite land or.
• 36:46
  Tim: Okay.
• 36:46
  Tim: What's a good idea for a podcast?
• 36:48
  Tim: And cocktail college was originally a column that I used to write for vine pair called Techniques.
• 36:55
  Tim: Mm-hmm.
• 36:55
  Tim: Or it was inspired by this column,
• 36:57
  Francis: Uhhuh.
• 36:57
  Tim: And the whole idea was and I'd learned this from kitchens, which is like, recipes really don't tell you that much.
• 37:03
  Tim: Mm-hmm.
• 37:03
  Tim: They give you the quantities, they give you rough directions, but like, you know, you need to have every other piece of context.
• 37:10
  Tim: Like Yeah.
• 37:11
  Tim: Yeah.
• 37:11
  Tim: You know, the temperature of a pan, the size of a pan.
• 37:14
  Tim: Mm-hmm.
• 37:14
  Tim: How much oil you're using, like how ripe your tomatoes are, whatever.
• 37:17
  Tim: Right.
• 37:18
  Tim: And I always figured, well, I'm sure the same is probably true for bartending.
• 37:22
  Tim: I'd never worked behind a bar.
• 37:23
  Tim: I was starting to get into cocktails.
• 37:25
  Tim: And so we did this column where it was like the way to perfect the espresso martini, the martini, the daiquiri, all these classics.
• 37:33
  Tim: And then as I reported more on spirits, as I wrote more about cocktails and really like dove into that, it's from a personal interest perspective.
• 37:45
  Tim: I would see, like on Reddit, these guys who are like Reddit bartenders, right?
• 37:52
  Tim: And they were in the middle of the country in a market I'd never heard of.
• 37:55
  Tim: And they were sharing photos of the way they'd changed their well for the evening or they'd changed their service area and they're like, this is gonna save me three seconds of time for every drink I make.
• 38:06
  Tim: Mm-hmm.
• 38:06
  Tim: Like, this is what I'm gonna save.
• 38:08
  Tim: And that brought me back to being in the kitchen.
• 38:10
  Tim: Like we would do stuff like that all the time, of course.
• 38:12
  Tim: Where we'd be like, sure, I've got a new setup for tonight's service.
• 38:15
  Tim: Mm-hmm.
• 38:15
  Tim: Let's see if it works.
• 38:15
  Tim: Mm-hmm.
• 38:16
  Tim: And I'm like, well, these guys care so much about this, but they're in Ohio.
• 38:22
  Tim: They might never get to work for, uh, Steve Schneider, you know?
• 38:26
  Tim: Mm-hmm.
• 38:26
  Tim: Or luminaries that you've had on your show, right?
• 38:28
  Tim: Yep.
• 38:29
  Tim: Yep.
• 38:29
  Tim: Steve's top of mind for me today.
• 38:30
  Tim: Uh, but if they wanna get that experience, or if they wanna work for Dale DeGraff, but they don't want to leave their hometown,
• 38:37
  Francis: right.
• 38:37
  Tim: How can we bring those voices to them?
• 38:40
  Tim: And the other thing that it really coincided with was every restaurant and bar operator that I was interviewing at the time for feature articles was saying like, look, it's not an issue with finding people.
• 38:55
  Tim: Like we've had an exodus from the industry.
• 38:56
  Tim: Mm-hmm.
• 38:57
  Tim: It's not about finding bartenders, about finding bartenders who know their stuff, who have experience, who care about things.
• 39:04
  Tim: And I was like, well, if you're like me, if you like to learn about things through podcasting, if you want to hear from the best and also you'll never be in that market working, what can we provide for people?
• 39:17
  Tim: So that was really the genesis for that.
• 39:18
  Tim: Mm-hmm.
• 39:19
  Tim: And once again, like so many times I pitched that to Adam and Josh and our editor at the time, and they were like, yeah, as long as this doesn't eat into the work, you're your role.
• 39:31
  Tim: Right.
• 39:31
  Tim: The work you're being paid for, if you can go above and beyond it, if you can find the time to do this, and if it's a success.
• 39:38
  Tim: Have at it.
• 39:39
  Tim: And so they gave me that opportunity
• 39:40
  Francis: and it was quite the success.
• 39:41
  Francis: What was the feedback you got on that?
• 39:43
  Tim: It was great.
• 39:43
  Tim: I mean, yeah, obviously I, I find it very difficult to listen to some of the early episodes.
• 39:48
  Tim: Like you, you realize how much you learn over time, not coming into it.
• 39:52
  Tim: Like the two of you where you have all these years of broadcast experience already.
• 39:56
  Tim: Well, we came,
• 39:56
  Francis: we started it one time.
• 39:57
  Francis: Yeah.
• 39:57
  Francis: But that was 20 years ago.
• 39:59
  Mark (2): We're, we're putting up those 20-year-old shows though.
• 40:01
  Mark (2): It's, I it's fun to listen
• 40:02
  Francis: to'em.
• 40:02
  Francis: We're putting up some of those 20-year-old shows.
• 40:04
  Francis: Yes.
• 40:05
  Francis: We, we are, Jennifer is excising some of those course, a lot of those 20-year-old shows going right in the bin.
• 40:09
  Francis: Of course.
• 40:11
  Mark (2): So you got a book about salt.
• 40:12
  Mark (2): Okay, let's talk about that for
• 40:13
  Francis: 45 minutes.
• 40:14
  Francis: But we came up and did, do you know what was, was really very different for us.
• 40:18
  Francis: We came up in radio.
• 40:19
  Francis: Mm-hmm.
• 40:19
  Francis: And we, we, we had this guy Ralph, who got us to do the show and he had a radio show for a long time and there were some people who worked at the radio station and they gave us a bunch of advice.
• 40:28
  Francis: And with the radio within a 60 minute show, we had 39 minutes of content.
• 40:33
  Francis: And it was live, right?
• 40:34
  Francis: Yeah.
• 40:35
  Francis: So the, the discipline that we got from that, and fortunately, and that's when there were screw ups that were really just terrible.
• 40:41
  Francis: It's like, we're running inside, we can a goodbye.
• 40:42
  Francis: You know?
• 40:45
  Francis: So, um, you know,'cause the news is coming out and the
• 40:48
  Mark (2): news is coming, coming.
• 40:48
  Mark (2): I remember them saying like, like, must have been the second or third day.
• 40:53
  Mark (2): Uhhuh news comes in hard at at noon.
• 40:56
  Mark (2): Right.
• 40:57
  Mark (2): News comes in hard at noon.
• 40:58
  Mark (2): Yeah.
• 40:58
  Mark (2): And literally you'll be like, and we've had a wonderful time talking to
• 41:03
  Francis: Exactly.
• 41:04
  Mark (2): And and that's how the show went up and
• 41:05
  Francis: that's it.
• 41:05
  Francis: My favorite was the only time they ever got really mad.
• 41:07
  Francis: They really got mad at us.
• 41:08
  Francis: And so the other things we're doing shows five days a week
• 41:10
  Mark (2): mm-hmm.
• 41:11
  Francis: For, that's crazy amount of cost, much 11 to
• 41:13
  Mark (2): 12 and then gonna work.
• 41:14
  Francis: Yeah.
• 41:15
  Francis: So, but the, but my favorite thing in the radio is what I did not know.
• 41:19
  Francis: 'cause I was a restaurant guy and not a, a, a radio guy.
• 41:22
  Francis: So the news is very important there.
• 41:24
  Francis: They have a news department that had people there.
• 41:26
  Francis: And, uh, and I said something like, well, we've got a break for the news, but don't worry, we'll be right back.
• 41:32
  Francis: And the newscaster I could see in the other studio, he wanted to kill me.
• 41:36
  Francis: What do you mean we have to listen to the news?
• 41:38
  Francis: What do you mean?
• 41:39
  Francis: And, and, uh, Bert Barron came in and was like, don't say anything like that again.
• 41:45
  Francis: I got it.
• 41:46
  Mark (2): so what I felt like with those shows that you did with cocktail college.
• 41:51
  Mark (2): It, you had two things going on at the same time.
• 41:54
  Mark (2): You had this great interview with this luminary or somebody important to the industry, and you were gonna talk about one cocktail and you were gonna, you know, dig your teeth into that cocktail.
• 42:06
  Mark (2): So you were doing, really doing two things at one time, and it, it was fun to do it that way, or at least as the listener.
• 42:13
  Mark (2): Yeah.
• 42:13
  Mark (2): I, I assume you, you enjoyed that as well.
• 42:15
  Tim: Yeah.
• 42:16
  Tim: I mean, I, I never planned it this way or I'd never thought about it, but what I quickly realized, I would say within five or six episodes was that this show was as much about.
• 42:28
  Tim: The drink that we were talking about as it was each individual bartenders approach to bartending.
• 42:35
  Tim: Mm-hmm.
• 42:35
  Tim: What they value, if they care about things like history and, okay, what is the specific historical and technical definition of a daisy, right?
• 42:44
  Tim: Mm-hmm.
• 42:44
  Tim: We had Marshall Manaya, who I think is a great bartender, runs, uh, Valerie, uh, Lolita, uh, Mme.
• 42:50
  Tim: George in Midtown.
• 42:52
  Tim: Like when he came in for his episode, he had done hours and hours and hours of prep trying to figure out like, how can we tra, where can we trace the daisy back to and is a margarie, uh, actually a daisy.
• 43:04
  Tim: Mm-hmm.
• 43:04
  Tim: And then you'd have other guests come on who'd be like, I don't care about the history.
• 43:09
  Tim: I care about my guests.
• 43:11
  Tim: I'm looking at the door.
• 43:12
  Tim: And I'm, that's not to say other people aren't Right, right.
• 43:14
  Tim: Mm-hmm.
• 43:14
  Tim: But it was like, it became about choose your bartender, whether or not you wanted to be a professional bartender or whether you were, but for those people it was like, okay, I want to be like.
• 43:26
  Tim: I like the Brian Miller School of Thinking.
• 43:28
  Tim: Yeah.
• 43:28
  Tim: Or the Julie Reiner School of Thinking.
• 43:29
  Tim: Right?
• 43:30
  Tim: Yeah.
• 43:30
  Tim: and, and then for like normal people, right?
• 43:32
  Tim: Or like people who are not in the industry, it was like, oh wow, these are, this is a wonderful cast of this, this is what the bartenders look like and how they think and, and that, so Yeah.
• 43:41
  Mark (2): And they don't all think the same.
• 43:42
  Mark (2): And it's not all one book that everybody's following.
• 43:45
  Mark (2): Yeah.
• 43:45
  Mark (2): So you're launching, you've gone into a really cool new part of your life.
• 43:50
  Mark (2): Mm-hmm.
• 43:50
  Mark (2): You're launching a new podcast.
• 43:51
  Mark (2): You're launching a new podcast network.
• 43:54
  Mark (2): Uh, the podcast is called Sauce.
• 43:56
  Mark (2): We're so excited.
• 43:57
  Mark (2): It just is launching this week.
• 43:59
  Mark (2): Mm-hmm.
• 43:59
  Mark (2): Tell us about what's going on with that.
• 44:01
  Tim: Yeah, so, you know, having listened to podcasts for 20 years and, and have the, you know, the, the opportunity to, to host one for Vine Pair, there became a point where I was like, I really wanna make this my whole life.
• 44:14
  Tim: And, and, you know, through speaking to folks such as yourselves and being inspired by people like Adam and Joshua started businesses.
• 44:22
  Tim: Mm-hmm.
• 44:22
  Tim: I wanted to put myself to the test.
• 44:23
  Tim: Right.
• 44:24
  Tim: I kind of wanted to put myself in that uncomfortable place again.
• 44:26
  Tim: Well, here you go.
• 44:29
  Tim: Like, knocking on that door again and, and being told I'm the chef, I'm leaving.
• 44:33
  Tim: Like, here you go.
• 44:35
  Tim: And, you know, couldn't sleep for two weeks.
• 44:37
  Tim: And I'm like, it's that feeling is coming back again.
• 44:40
  Tim: Mm-hmm.
• 44:41
  Tim: But.
• 44:41
  Tim: So the, the idea of, of the network called the Coaster is every show will look at a different aspect of culture and try and interpret it through the lens of drinks and drinking.
• 44:52
  Tim: Because what I realized and what I really enjoyed doing at Vine Pair was like we had all these incredible, and they're not shows about drinks, right?
• 44:59
  Tim: Drinks are the kind of the vehicle, mm-hmm.
• 45:00
  Tim: For talking about business or bartending, careers, culture, society.
• 45:07
  Tim: But I thought, well, wouldn't it be great to maybe.
• 45:10
  Tim: Return to food and to bring my whole kind of career paths together
• 45:15
  Francis: mm-hmm.
• 45:15
  Tim: And start a show like Sourced, or what are my other interests?
• 45:19
  Tim: Like what hasn't been interpreted through the lens of drinks before, movies, music, literature, things like that.
• 45:25
  Tim: So like, okay, I'm not a, I haven't been to film school, I'm not a director.
• 45:29
  Tim: I can't talk about like that aspect of movies, but I can talk about, I can go pretty in depth about the martini scene in the Wolf of Wall Street and be like, here's what the guy did.
• 45:38
  Tim: Well, here's what this means about the movie.
• 45:41
  Tim: Here's why this was cool.
• 45:42
  Tim: So that was the whole idea of like, how do we look at culture through drinks and drinking, but like, this is a movie podcast, or a food one.
• 45:50
  Tim: Mm-hmm.
• 45:51
  Tim: And then Sauced is, is in a way, and, and it wasn't like I, I set out to say what is the food version of Cocktail College?
• 45:59
  Tim: But I do realize that there's sort of many.
• 46:02
  Tim: Over.
• 46:02
  Tim: There's a lot of overlap between the two shows in the every episode.
• 46:07
  Tim: So our tagline is cooking with booze and drinking with food, which I know are two things you guys hate to do, so it's not really gonna appeal to you.
• 46:14
  Tim: We're still
• 46:15
  Francis: practicing.
• 46:15
  Francis: Yeah, we're still practicing.
• 46:16
  Tim: Keep at it.
• 46:17
  Tim: You know, you'll get there one day.
• 46:18
  Tim: Yeah.
• 46:18
  Tim: Um, but every episode will be about a different dish that's classically made with alcohol or can be improved by alcohol.
• 46:27
  Tim: Or we'll talk about like iconic pairings.
• 46:29
  Tim: Right?
• 46:29
  Tim: So you're talking about like beef burg, andon.
• 46:31
  Tim: Mm-hmm.
• 46:32
  Tim: Oysters Rockefeller or champagne and caviar, stuff like that.
• 46:35
  Tim: Right.
• 46:35
  Francis: So beef burgundy would have burgundy in it.
• 46:38
  Tim: Ah, 25 years ago.
• 46:40
  Francis: 25 years ago it would've burgundy.
• 46:42
  Francis: Now
• 46:42
  Tim: I don't get burgundy.
• 46:43
  Tim: You're, I don't have,
• 46:44
  Francis: did you have a ciran in it today?
• 46:45
  Francis: What would you put on it today?
• 46:46
  Tim: Well, so funnily enough, in Beef burg a Beef burgon is our first episode.
• 46:49
  Tim: So this, this is a little spoiler, but I, I think that.
• 46:53
  Tim: California pinot is probably better for what you want.
• 46:57
  Tim: It's got more body more sense.
• 46:58
  Tim: It's juicier.
• 46:59
  Tim: Yeah.
• 46:59
  Tim: Yeah.
• 47:00
  Tim: Uh, doesn't have the tannins.
• 47:01
  Tim: Tannins are nowhere in sight.
• 47:03
  Francis: Right,
• 47:03
  Tim: right.
• 47:03
  Tim: And burgundy, you know, like, you can't even say, well, I can't afford Burgundy to drink anymore, so I'll go to bole.
• 47:09
  Tim: Bojo is also going up like that.
• 47:12
  Francis: Yeah.
• 47:12
  Tim: Yeah.
• 47:13
  Tim: So Mark
• 47:13
  Francis: loves Bojo Vage,
• 47:14
  Tim: uh,
• 47:15
  Francis: no,
• 47:15
  Mark (2): it's, it's not on my list.
• 47:16
  Tim: No,
• 47:17
  Francis: he's not a gammet.
• 47:18
  Francis: He's anti gammet.
• 47:19
  Tim: Wow.
• 47:20
  Francis: Yeah.
• 47:21
  Tim: I had no, no idea that you staunchly Well, ga
• 47:24
  Mark (2): until you get me to the Gronk cruise and then I
• 47:26
  Francis: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 47:27
  Francis: I'll let him in.
• 47:28
  Francis: I'll let him in.
• 47:28
  Francis: I brought in some nvo this year, and I believe he said when he saw it on the, on the liquor store floor.
• 47:33
  Francis: What the hell is this?
• 47:34
  Francis: IFI indulged.
• 47:38
  Francis: Yeah, we indulged.
• 47:39
  Francis: Sorry, buddy.
• 47:39
  Francis: All right.
• 47:40
  Mark (2): You did not indulge.
• 47:41
  Francis: I had a bottle.
• 47:45
  Francis: Alright, so Beef program on your own.
• 47:46
  Francis: So do you do a whole episode on like Beef program on your own?
• 47:48
  Francis: And we,
• 47:49
  Tim: yeah, but so it's similar to cocktail college in a way.
• 47:51
  Tim: So we're looking at like, so myself and Suther, our co-hosts, like we both used to be Chefs, er used to be a mm-hmm.
• 47:57
  Tim: He's well known as a bartender and author.
• 47:59
  Tim: Sure.
• 48:00
  Tim: But he was also a butcher a, you know, fishmonger, probably a baker and Candlestick maker.
• 48:05
  Tim: Yeah.
• 48:05
  Tim: He is
• 48:05
  Mark (2): also honestly one of the most intelligent people in this industry that I know.
• 48:09
  Mark (2): Yeah, a hundred percent.
• 48:09
  Mark (2): Yeah.
• 48:10
  Mark (2): Okay.
• 48:10
  Mark (2): He just is
• 48:11
  Tim: hundred percent.
• 48:12
  Tim: Yeah, a hundred percent.
• 48:12
  Tim: And great on radio.
• 48:12
  Tim: He's mm-hmm.
• 48:13
  Tim: He's been on the Speakeasy podcast as a cohost for the best part of 10 years, if not more.
• 48:17
  Francis: So one of the things that was kind of loosely the structure of the cocktail college was you would pick a cocktail and kind go in depth with that.
• 48:23
  Francis: Are you gonna pick one dish?
• 48:24
  Tim: So every episode will be one dish.
• 48:27
  Francis: Oh, that's great.
• 48:27
  Tim: And then we'll do the deep dive.
• 48:29
  Tim: So we'll talk about what is our.
• 48:31
  Tim: Professional and personal connections to the dish uhhuh, have we ever cooked this in restaurants or is it a home cooking thing?
• 48:36
  Tim: Mm-hmm.
• 48:37
  Tim: Then we'll look at history and we'll say like, is there an origin story for this thing?
• 48:42
  Tim: Is there one that's definitely apocryphal as is the case with like a lot of cocktails?
• 48:46
  Tim: Yeah.
• 48:47
  Tim: Yeah.
• 48:47
  Tim: Mm-hmm.
• 48:47
  Tim: Or can you just simply say like, no one man can, or, or woman or person can be responsible for putting together mussels and white wine.
• 48:55
  Tim: You know what I mean?
• 48:56
  Tim: Right.
• 48:56
  Tim: A
• 48:56
  Mark (2): bunch of poor people said, we have these two things.
• 48:58
  Mark (2): We're gonna put'em together and let's
• 49:00
  Tim: figure that out.
• 49:00
  Tim: Exactly right.
• 49:00
  Tim: Usually it's out of necessity, and then we'll look at, we'll do a deep dive on ingredients.
• 49:06
  Tim: Right.
• 49:06
  Tim: Why are you choosing this cut of beef for beef burg, Andon?
• 49:09
  Tim: What's gonna change if you go from chuck to short rib, or as I'm sure you love the, the beef cheeks, which is my favorite.
• 49:17
  Tim: Oh, that's like another little foiler there.
• 49:18
  Tim: I've never
• 49:18
  Francis: done that.
• 49:19
  Tim: Uh, I, is that the way to go?
• 49:21
  Tim: They're incredible.
• 49:22
  Tim: I've never
• 49:22
  Mark (2): done it in bogen y so
• 49:23
  Tim: yeah, I, yeah, I, I love cooking with those.
• 49:25
  Tim: They're great for stews.
• 49:26
  Tim: So,
• 49:27
  Francis: can I say you something?
• 49:27
  Francis: I, I don't cook a lot at home and I, when I cook, I cook for people.
• 49:31
  Francis: I cook.
• 49:32
  Mark (2): It's funny that you mentioned beef Bogen y'cause I know what he's about to tell you,
• 49:35
  Francis: so, so, I.
• 49:37
  Francis: Decide there's a blizzard coming, I decide I'm gonna make beef gonio.
• 49:40
  Francis: I just, I'm, you know, I got, my girlfriend at the time was gonna come over, my cousin was living with me.
• 49:44
  Francis: I'll make, and I'll invite the neighbors over and I'll just, I'll make beef bo That's what I'm doing today.
• 49:48
  Francis: Mm-hmm.
• 49:48
  Francis: I got a Woodburn stove going.
• 49:50
  Francis: I got, I'm sweating things down and I'm, and I hadn't thought of this the night before where I normally would've gotten some meat from the restaurant or through the restaurant.
• 49:57
  Francis: I'm like, ah, you know, I'll just go to the supermarket and buy some meat.
• 50:00
  Francis: I won't name the supermarket, but could be any of them.
• 50:02
  Francis: 'cause they're all the same except for the high ends.
• 50:04
  Francis: And I grab some stew stew, quote unquote stew meat.
• 50:07
  Francis: Right.
• 50:07
  Francis: And I go to Brown the meat and I call up Mark,'cause Mark would be more in touch with supermarket stuff and what to do and what to avoid than I'm, and I'm trying to brown this meat and so much water comes out of it.
• 50:18
  Francis: That I'm boiling this meat, that
• 50:19
  Mark (2): it literally, you cannot
• 50:21
  Francis: brown, you cannot brown this meat, but, and if you pour off that water, you're pouring off all the flavor that's in the meat.
• 50:25
  Francis: I'm like, mark, what's going, what's happening?
• 50:27
  Francis: He's like, that's what happens when I buy.
• 50:30
  Francis: You buy crappy meat.
• 50:31
  Francis: It's a, I like this.
• 50:33
  Francis: People buy this.
• 50:34
  Francis: This is a crime.
• 50:36
  Francis: So I went down to the restaurant and I got some meat and I threw away.
• 50:40
  Francis: But, uh, yeah, it's very
• 50:41
  Tim: well, and that's one of the philosophies we have on our show as well, which is like, if you're a regular somewhere, you know your bartender's name and you should know your bartender's name.
• 50:50
  Tim: And if you don't, shame on you.
• 50:51
  Tim: Right?
• 50:52
  Tim: But like chances are, you will.
• 50:54
  Tim: Why don't you know your butcher's name?
• 50:55
  Tim: Do you have a butcher?
• 50:57
  Tim: Do you have a fish market?
• 50:58
  Tim: Because then you can say, Hey.
• 51:00
  Tim: You know, my friend Tim was telling me the other day about like cooking with beef cheeks.
• 51:03
  Tim: I've never done that before.
• 51:04
  Tim: Like, do you have any They might, they might not.
• 51:07
  Tim: Right.
• 51:07
  Tim: Each cow only has two.
• 51:09
  Tim: These are like prize things.
• 51:10
  Tim: Yep.
• 51:10
  Tim: But it'll be like, don't worry Francis, next time they come in, I'll call you.
• 51:14
  Tim: I'll keep you two aside.
• 51:15
  Tim: Yeah.
• 51:15
  Tim: I'll call you and I'll prep it for you.
• 51:18
  Tim: Mm-hmm.
• 51:18
  Tim: Or I'll show you how to prep it.
• 51:20
  Francis: Well, and I think the other thing that, that to the example that I just gave, why your show is so valuable when you, you're like, okay, I wanna make Beef Broon.
• 51:28
  Francis: If you go get the recipe and you download it and you read it.
• 51:32
  Francis: Mm-hmm.
• 51:32
  Francis: And then you go to the supermarket and you buy beef like I did and you have never made beef broon before.
• 51:36
  Francis: Yeah.
• 51:36
  Francis: You're like, I guess this is how it's supposed to be.
• 51:39
  Francis: Yeah.
• 51:39
  Francis: But so you follow the recipe, but you wound up with boiled meat instead of when you listen to the sauce podcast on before on your own, that'll never happen to you.
• 51:47
  Tim: That is, that's the whole genesis of it.
• 51:49
  Tim: Mm-hmm.
• 51:50
  Tim: Same with cocktail college.
• 51:50
  Tim: Right.
• 51:50
  Tim: Like.
• 51:51
  Tim: You look at a recipe and it might say, three pounds of beef stew, or it might say, Chuck, if you're lucky, and you're like, okay, I know to get Chuck.
• 51:58
  Tim: Mm-hmm.
• 51:58
  Tim: Then you do that and you're like, why is this happening?
• 52:01
  Mark (2): Right.
• 52:01
  Tim: For us, we're talking about all of that.
• 52:03
  Tim: It.
• 52:04
  Tim: And it's not like, okay, now take two carrots and then three onions and like, we're not gonna, that doesn't make for good radio, I don't think.
• 52:10
  Tim: Mm-hmm.
• 52:10
  Tim: So it's everything around it.
• 52:12
  Tim: And we do talk about the preparation, but also like, yeah, how do you get that good sear?
• 52:17
  Tim: Like how are you drying this meat?
• 52:18
  Tim: Or whatever.
• 52:19
  Tim: And then of course, it's a show about cooking with booze and drinking with food.
• 52:23
  Tim: So every episode we'll come up with a custom cocktail that's in some way tied to the dish.
• 52:29
  Tim: Oh, I love Or inspired, oh, is the cocktail
• 52:30
  Mark (2): sometimes wine or is it always gonna be a cocktail?
• 52:32
  Tim: We talk about pairings regardless.
• 52:34
  Tim: Mm-hmm.
• 52:34
  Tim: So wine.
• 52:35
  Tim: We even give some love to beer and cider.
• 52:37
  Tim: I'm a big cider lover, but I know I love that too.
• 52:39
  Tim: That's terribly uncool here in the, in the United States.
• 52:41
  Tim: Well, and
• 52:41
  Francis: there's a lot of crap cider
• 52:42
  Tim: here.
• 52:43
  Tim: There is.
• 52:44
  Mark (2): You know, I remember, I mean, we fought this battle.
• 52:47
  Mark (2): Mm-hmm.
• 52:47
  Mark (2): We brought in the, the french cider.
• 52:50
  Mark (2): Yeah.
• 52:50
  Mark (2): From the 300 year old or orchards.
• 52:52
  Mark (2): And, and two people would buy it, you know,
• 52:57
  Francis: it's not receiving.
• 52:58
  Francis: And mark and, and Mark and I went up drinking all.
• 53:01
  Tim: Exactly.
• 53:02
  Tim: Uh, so yeah, we will give those classic pairings though.
• 53:04
  Tim: But we, we wanted to,'cause the other thing as well, like much like yourselves, we're, we're, we're offering, um, sort of like a premium experience as well for paid listeners.
• 53:13
  Francis: We are, by the way, just so you all know.
• 53:15
  Francis: We were setting you.
• 53:15
  Francis: Good example.
• 53:16
  Francis: Mark and I were already signed up to be paid subscribers for the soft podcast.
• 53:20
  Tim: Very, very generous of
• 53:21
  Francis: you.
• 53:21
  Francis: The the first episode was, uh, dude, I, I get what I paid for.
• 53:25
  Francis: I'm not feeling that at all.
• 53:26
  Francis: The, it launched on the 8th of January.
• 53:29
  Tim: Mm-hmm.
• 53:29
  Francis: And, uh, every week you're coming out with it.
• 53:32
  Tim: Every week once we start, we will never stop.
• 53:33
  Tim: We're on the hamster wheel now.
• 53:35
  Francis: I love it.
• 53:35
  Francis: That's great.
• 53:36
  Mark (2): We are very excited for you
• 53:37
  Tim: too.
• 53:37
  Tim: Yeah.
• 53:37
  Tim: Thank you.
• 53:38
  Tim: Um, but yeah, and then so like, look, we're not gonna go into individual qualities in it, quantities in the show, but folks like yourself who've signed up for that, we have a designer and we are making these like beautiful electronic recipe cards.
• 53:54
  Tim: So you'll get one, you'll get Southern and buy recipe for.
• 53:56
  Tim: Love that as well.
• 53:57
  Tim: Mm-hmm.
• 53:58
  Tim: And these have been designed again by a human and illustrator.
• 54:01
  Tim: She's great.
• 54:01
  Tim: She's basically in the uk.
• 54:02
  Tim: Like we're not, nothing is like AI on content or production or things like that.
• 54:07
  Tim: And.
• 54:08
  Tim: So we're like, that enables us to sort of keep that alive.
• 54:11
  Tim: I love that.
• 54:12
  Tim: And yeah, offer those things.
• 54:13
  Tim: 'cause yeah, I don't think it makes for a good radio, but we don't want people to be like, well I just spent an hour listening about this dish and I, I don't know how to make it, like I know how to do it, but I don't have the quantities.
• 54:25
  Francis: Well, we have a similar thing for, that I haven't told Mark about yet.
• 54:28
  Francis: For restaurant guys, regulars.
• 54:30
  Francis: Uh, we have a tattoo artist that will visit your house for a certain price and you can get a little restaurant guy.
• 54:35
  Francis: You're not even laughing.
• 54:35
  Francis: Mark's not funny.
• 54:36
  Francis: Do you know why, why
• 54:37
  Mark (2): not?
• 54:37
  Mark (2): Funny.
• 54:38
  Francis: Sorry about that.
• 54:39
  Francis: Alright, so we wanna turn the tables on you a little bit, Tim.
• 54:43
  Francis: And, uh, the way that you often ended cocktail college was with, uh, rapid fire questions for your guests.
• 54:49
  Francis: Mm-hmm.
• 54:49
  Francis: And so we have some rapid fire questions wanna play?
• 54:52
  Tim: Absolutely.
• 54:53
  Francis: Okay.
• 54:53
  Francis: Tim McCurdy, super knowledgeable guy.
• 54:55
  Francis: You've talked to all the bartenders for the last couple of years.
• 54:58
  Francis: You live in Brooklyn, you're way cooler than we are.
• 55:01
  Francis: Um, let's ask you some rapid fire questions ready to go?
• 55:04
  Tim: Okay.
• 55:04
  Francis: Alright.
• 55:05
  Francis: Uh, favorite three cocktails, period.
• 55:09
  Tim: Classic cocktails or
• 55:10
  Francis: favorite three.
• 55:11
  Francis: Whatever you want.
• 55:12
  Mark (2): Okay.
• 55:12
  Mark (2): We already know one's the martini,
• 55:13
  Francis: martini's
• 55:14
  Tim McK Seq Audio: number
• 55:14
  Mark (2): one.
• 55:14
  Mark (2): So you can start with, you can start with martini.
• 55:17
  Tim: Okay.
• 55:17
  Francis: Martini.
• 55:17
  Francis: You can name a specialty cocktail at a special place or you can name a, a, a classic or one in the Cannon two and three.
• 55:23
  Francis: What are they?
• 55:24
  Tim: Okay, number two.
• 55:26
  Tim: Uh, where am I going after that?
• 55:29
  Tim: Ma Thai.
• 55:30
  Francis: Okay.
• 55:30
  Tim: A well made, ah,
• 55:31
  Mark (2): great
• 55:32
  Francis: cocktail.
• 55:32
  Francis: Great.
• 55:33
  Francis: A great cocktail.
• 55:34
  Francis: Yeah.
• 55:34
  Francis: Often made terribly.
• 55:35
  Francis: A great cocktail.
• 55:35
  Francis: A great
• 55:36
  Mark (2): cocktail
• 55:37
  Francis: when
• 55:37
  Mark (2): it's made.
• 55:37
  Francis: Wonderful.
• 55:39
  Francis: I said, we said it was gonna be rapid fire, but best ma Tai in the city
• 55:43
  Tim: and the city.
• 55:43
  Tim: I'm just going to, it is outside of the city, actually in Stockton, New Jersey right now.
• 55:48
  Francis: Oh, nice.
• 55:48
  Francis: Brian Miller's place
• 55:49
  Tim: down Stockton Inn.
• 55:49
  Tim: Brian Miller's place.
• 55:50
  Tim: Yeah.
• 55:50
  Tim: If you haven't had Brian Miller making you d uh, my ties and daiquiris all day in the beach.
• 55:55
  Tim: In the seashells.
• 55:56
  Tim: In the seashells.
• 55:57
  Tim: You haven't yet lived.
• 55:58
  Francis: I haven't, but I did.
• 55:59
  Francis: I've had him make them for me at the Stockton Inn
• 56:01
  Tim: and the Stockton in,
• 56:02
  Francis: and we actually, I, I stayed over at the Stockton Inn.
• 56:04
  Francis: It's a great place to visit.
• 56:06
  Francis: It's, it's two wallets, but
• 56:07
  Mark (2): France believes hit all rapid fire.
• 56:10
  Mark (2): Should be coming from a musket.
• 56:12
  Mark (2): So right now he's, he's got his, he's got his, his powder.
• 56:16
  Mark (2): Yeah, exactly.
• 56:18
  Mark (2): Leaning little mini ball.
• 56:19
  Mark (2): He is dropping in the top.
• 56:21
  Francis: Um, your criticism is valid.
• 56:23
  Francis: All right.
• 56:23
  Francis: Alright, so, um, third, your third cocktail.
• 56:26
  Tim: Third.
• 56:26
  Tim: I'm gonna, um, I'm gonna have a Ramos gin fizz anywhere that will gladly make it for me in New Orleans.
• 56:33
  Francis: Excellent.
• 56:34
  Francis: Nice.
• 56:34
  Francis: So we're changing this from rapid fire to the long slow march to victory.
• 56:38
  Francis: Uh, best martini in New York City.
• 56:42
  Tim: Beyond my wife's.
• 56:44
  Francis: Beyond your wife's.
• 56:44
  Francis: Yes.
• 56:44
  Tim: Because Gabriela makes the,
• 56:45
  Francis: because you, you promised us that as soon as this podcast is over, we're gonna go have some of those, which is so hurry up.
• 56:50
  Mark (2): Yes.
• 56:50
  Mark (2): Which is what surprises me that we're not wrapped with
• 56:53
  Francis: no long, slow march to victory.
• 56:54
  Francis: Here we go.
• 56:54
  Francis: Best March City in New York City.
• 56:55
  Tim: I think, uh, for me it would be Maison Premier.
• 56:58
  Francis: Maison Premier, right here in Brooklyn.
• 56:59
  Francis: Okay.
• 56:59
  Francis: Mm-hmm.
• 57:00
  Francis: All right.
• 57:00
  Francis: Best stake in New York City.
• 57:04
  Tim: Uh, I mean, Keens
• 57:06
  Francis: Keens.
• 57:07
  Francis: Okay.
• 57:08
  Francis: Fair enough.
• 57:08
  Francis: I think it's, I
• 57:09
  Mark (2): get be, it gets my best mutton shop for me.
• 57:11
  Mark (2): It doesn't get best steak.
• 57:12
  Francis: I, it gets my favorite steakhouse in New York City.
• 57:14
  Mark (2): Yeah.
• 57:14
  Tim: I, so I gotta put my hand up and say I'm not a big steak fan.
• 57:17
  Francis: What the hell's wrong with you?
• 57:18
  Mark (2): You're fired.
• 57:20
  Tim: I like slow and low ba
• 57:22
  Francis: best burger in New York City.
• 57:24
  Tim: Oh.
• 57:25
  Tim: Um, this is more about the situation than, than the just the, the food itself.
• 57:31
  Tim: But I mean, if I'm having a burger at Long Island Bar
• 57:34
  Francis: Okay.
• 57:34
  Tim: I'm very happy.
• 57:35
  Francis: Uh, and you better get this one right.
• 57:36
  Francis: Best burger in America.
• 57:38
  Tim: In America.
• 57:39
  Tim: Gotta be left there.
• 57:40
  Francis: Oh, that's correct.
• 57:41
  Francis: That's good.
• 57:42
  Francis: That's correct.
• 57:42
  Francis: What, what a surprise answer.
• 57:45
  Francis: Mark.
• 57:45
  Francis: You can put the bras, knuckles back away.
• 57:47
  Francis: Um, okay.
• 57:48
  Francis: Best cocktail place in New York City that you don't have to know somebody or stand online to get in.
• 57:53
  Tim: Wow.
• 57:55
  Tim: You know, that's becoming increasingly tough.
• 57:57
  Francis: Kidding.
• 57:57
  Francis: That's why we asked the question.
• 57:58
  Tim: Um, I would say it depends when you go,'cause if you go, let's say
• 58:04
  Mark (2): Wednesday, let's say
• 58:05
  Tim: Wednesday
• 58:06
  Francis: night, Wednesday night, six 30,
• 58:08
  Tim: where you going?
• 58:08
  Tim: If you go just after work, it might be a little bit busy, but I, and I mentioned him earlier, but I think what Marshall Manaya and and his team are doing at mm-hmm.
• 58:17
  Tim: Mme.
• 58:17
  Tim: George, Lolita and Valerie, uh, maybe because of the part of time that it's in, like does not get, it gets recognition and rightly so.
• 58:25
  Tim: Right.
• 58:25
  Tim: But nowhere near the recognition they deserve.
• 58:28
  Tim: Especially like having spoken to the staff as well.
• 58:30
  Tim: And like every single person that works behind the bar there eats, breathes, sleeps, drinks, cocktails.
• 58:36
  Tim: It's like, it's incredible.
• 58:37
  Tim: It's inspiring
• 58:38
  Francis: and you can get in and have an actual drink rather than just read about it
• 58:41
  Tim: or online.
• 58:41
  Tim: They're all three big spaces as well.
• 58:42
  Tim: Like I said, after work, it can get a little busy, but it dies down a little bit, especially on a Wednesday.
• 58:47
  Tim: And then you're good to go.
• 58:48
  Francis: Great.
• 58:48
  Francis: Okay.
• 58:49
  Francis: Best cocktail bar worth standing online for.
• 58:53
  Tim: I think that the best bar experience in New York, if not one of the best I've ever had in the world.
• 59:03
  Tim: In life is Sunken Harbor Club.
• 59:05
  Francis: Oh, that's great.
• 59:06
  Francis: Oh yeah, that's great.
• 59:07
  Francis: That's right above Manon premiere.
• 59:08
  Tim: Right?
• 59:08
  Tim: Uh, gage and Tollner
• 59:09
  Francis: Gage Toner.
• 59:10
  Francis: Sorry about that.
• 59:10
  Tim: Yeah.
• 59:10
  Francis: Restaurant mixed up.
• 59:12
  Tim: Yeah.
• 59:12
  Francis: Yeah.
• 59:13
  Francis: Garrett's great.
• 59:14
  Francis: Okay, final question.
• 59:15
  Francis: Uh, we're leaving the cocktail world, but what's the best wine list for non millionaires?
• 59:20
  Francis: Uh, where the wines aren't cloudy?
• 59:25
  Mark (2): You give us an orange wine place.
• 59:26
  Mark (2): We're done
• 59:27
  Francis: talking.
• 59:27
  Francis: Yeah, believe
• 59:27
  Tim: me.
• 59:28
  Tim: Yeah.
• 59:28
  Tim: I see.
• 59:29
  Tim: I'm with you.
• 59:29
  Tim: I like natural.
• 59:30
  Tim: I don't like Natty
• 59:31
  Francis: Uhhuh.
• 59:31
  Francis: Yeah.
• 59:31
  Francis: Um,
• 59:33
  Tim: I think there are very, very good deals to be had, so I'm not saying cheap, but very good deals to be had at Papino here in Brooklyn as well.
• 59:42
  Tim: Mm-hmm.
• 59:42
  Francis: All right, so there you have it, folks.
• 59:44
  Francis: The, top list from Tim McCurdy.
• 59:46
  Francis: Uh, Tim, this has been great.
• 59:48
  Mark (2): We're very excited for your new venture.
• 59:50
  Mark (2): Uh, excited to be right on board here with you and, watch what happens.
• 59:55
  Tim: I'm looking forward to it and, it's very exciting to, to have now recorded a different show in this space as well.
• 1:00:02
  Tim: It's very cool
• 1:00:03
  Francis: helping you Chris, in the space, and you've made Mark and I feel bad.
• 1:00:06
  Francis: We have Studio Envy.
• 1:00:07
  Francis: I'll be honest, we're gonna have to build one just like this.
• 1:00:09
  Francis: Yeah.
• 1:00:09
  Francis: We've
• 1:00:09
  Tim: got a spare room upstairs.
• 1:00:10
  Tim: If you guys wanna move in for a little bit to a residency here,
• 1:00:13
  Francis: I, I wouldn't mind, I never mind going to the bottom.
• 1:00:15
  Francis: It's all about putting ego aside.
• 1:00:16
  Francis: Listen, everybody, you gotta go check out the new podcast.
• 1:00:19
  Francis: We will put everything in the show notes.
• 1:00:20
  Francis: It's called Sauce.
• 1:00:21
  Francis: It's got Tim McCurdy and Su Teague, two of our really good friends who were two of the most knowledgeable people in the world.
• 1:00:26
  Francis: Chefs, cocktails, podcasters.
• 1:00:28
  Francis: It's gonna be great.
• 1:00:29
  Francis: I'm Francis Sch.
• 1:00:30
  Mark (2): I'm Mark Pascal.
• 1:00:31
  Francis: We are the restaurant guys.
• 1:00:32
  Francis: You can always find out more about us and subscribe podcast@restaurantguyspodcast.com.