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Transcript

Is Monogamy Dead? · Gay Men Going Deeper

• 0:00
  Speaker A: Foreign welcome to Gay Men Going Deeper, a podcast by the Gay Men's Brotherhood that showcases raw and real conversations about personal development, mental health, and sexuality from an unapologetically gay perspective. I'm your host, Michael DiIorio, and joining me today are Matt Lansdel and Reno Johnston. Today we are checking the pulse of good old fashioned monogamy and exploring this notion that monogamy doesn't work in gay relationships. So we'll be talking about things like the benefits of monogamy, the stigma of monogamous relationships in the gay community, and what it takes for monogamous relationships to succeed in the gay world. What we want you to get out of this episode is to challenge the idea that gay relationships can't be monogamous and to see monogamy as a valid structure for those who want it. If you're new here, please subscribe to the channel on YouTube. And if you're listening on your favorite podcast platform, please do subscribe and leave us a review which helps us get into the ears of people who need us. Okay, let's jump in. So I initially wanted to call this episode the myth of non monogamy, and I may yet change it. We'll see how today goes because I hear this from a lot of guys. The. The myth that I hear or the story that, that we're telling is nobody wants monogamy. Everybody wants to be open. Gay men can't be exclusive. Gay men don't want to be exclusive. Monogamy is for straight couples. Gays killed monogamy. Monogamy is dead. Womp, womp, womp, womp. So this is the story I hear. And so I went to get some evidence. I went down a bit of a rabbit hole on the Internet and here's what I found. I found a lot of things. I'm not going to share all of it with you, but here's generally what I found. Studies suggest that 40 to 50% of gay couples engage in some form of consensual non monogamy, compared to 4 to 5%, 4 to 5% for heterosexual and lesbian couples. Another study, specifically from 2018, showed that 33% of gay participants reported being in open relationships, compared to 2% of the heterosexual participants, 5% of the lesbian participants, and 22% of bisexual participants. Okay, so those are the numbers. Some of them. There's a lot more studies out there. So what's the verdict here? While gay couples statistically appear more likely to be non monogamous, this does not apply universally. Very important. So let's squash that myth. We can answer the question right now. Okay? Not all gay relationships are open or not everyone wants openness. It just doesn't. It's just not true. So let's stop saying that now. That said, there is statistical evidence to show that we as gay men are less likely to choose monogamy. We're not as likely to choose it as an option. So that got me thinking as to why. Why are gay couples less likely to choose monogamy? I don't think it's because we can't. I don't think it's because we're broken. Throw that in the bin, in my opinion. So what could it be? So I came up with four reasons why we don't choose monogamy. Okay. It's not because we can't. One is that I think for a lot of people, at least in the us, in Canada, North America, Europe, same sex marriage is a relatively new possibility. So for many of us who didn't grow up with that as a norm, we didn't have role models. We didn't have this concept of gay marriage until very recently for us. So we didn't really grow up thinking it. I certainly didn't grow up thinking I was ever gonna get married. So it was never really a possibility for me. That's in life and in the media. Right? Media as well. Media just mirrored that as well. So we were left to find gay relationships on our own terms without any kind of boundary or structure or role modeling. It's like, okay, well, if we don't have one, then that opens the door for us challenging the idea of monogamy, which is, I think, what a lot of us did and do still do. Okay. Another reason is that I think it's. And I've talked about this in the past, I think it's a fundamental part of the DNA of being queer that we just question social norms on everything. Gender, sexuality, and even relationship structures. That's just what we do. We fly the flag of non conformity in society and we go against the grain simply by existing. Even if you are a traditional, conservative person, your existence is against the grain. Okay. So for a lot of us, we know how to follow our personal preferences even when it's unconventional. We've done episodes recently about coming out and how that really goes against the grain. So we, we can do this more so than our hetero friends and hetero relationships. We don't have that role modeling there. We don't have that social structure there. And also we're just used to going against the grain. The third reason, and I did find evidence for this one, is that men, regardless of sexual orientation, are more inclined towards sexual variety than women. So when you put male relationships together to men together, okay. You tend to have a mutual understanding. Here I kind of want some variety. You want some variety. We both agree we want the variety. So it just makes it easier to negotiate openness with when two partners both want it. Okay. And the last reason, the last one here I have, is that a lot of gay relationships are dinks. And if you don't know what a dink is, double income, no kids, D I N K. So it gives us a lot of independence, a lot of freedom, a lot of time, a lot of bandwidth to explore and manage the work that goes into being in an open relationship. Okay? So those are some of the reasons why I think we don't choose monogamy. Yet despite this, despite this, another study suggested that about 50% of gay male couples are monogamous and 50% do allow for some sex outside of the relationship. And don't forget that non monogamy is a very big spectrum. You can like crack the door open or you can like blow the barn doors open and have full non monogamy. So 50% are monogamous and then 50% have some kind of agreement in there. So evidence shows that monogamy is going strong. It is alive and well. So let's talk about that. The reality is, I think from what I see is that it's just not talked about as much. It's not exciting or sexy or interesting. Like openness is right. Monogamy is just, it's the standard. It's, it's what we all know. So it doesn't get as much attention, I think. And I think that's what's actually happening here. So today we're going to shift that. We are going to give that attention to monogamy and we're going to focus on monogamous relationships. So let's get started. And the first question we have here is what are the benefits that you have experienced in monogamous relationships compared to open ones today? Let's start with Reno.
• 6:47
  Speaker B: Knew it. I experimented with non monogamy in my first, I'm going to call it like serious long term relationship. We started out monogamous and then at some point in the relationship. There are a couple factors here. One is that I was curious about what it would be like to experience explore outside the relationship. And two is that I think I wasn't feeling fully satisfied and there's actually a third piece to this and I think it's that I had some personal internal stuff going on. You know, like being in relationship for me at that point was really uncomfortable and I had some stuff to work through and, and so I think that was causing me to feel uneasy and to want to venture outside of the relationship. And this actually ties into my answer to this as well, because my decision to continue to like stay with the relationship. So what happened was we opened it, we both decided to explore briefly and then we agreed to close it. And I don't know, I just found that I preferred monogamy. I think we both did. And what ended up happening is we were able to go a lot deeper because we were focused on this specific relationship and this specific connection. And I think something I discovered in that process was that I'm not opposed to the, at least the conversation and at most the act of consensual non monogamy. What's important to me though is that there's a foundation laid and that there's time spent focused on establishing the relationship and going, going deep. I think there's so much to be discovered, explored, experienced, learned, gained from being in a monogamous relationship. And there are edges and, I don't know, opportunities that I think can be missed in non monogamy and I think the reverse is true as well. You know, I think there are things to be learned outside of a monogamous relationship as well and in a consensually non monogamous relationship. The other thing is you mentioned something about not having role models and that's accurate for me. I did watch, you know, movies in television and see sort of heteronormative modeling. And I think that that definitely created this like romance around monogamy and being married. And that's still alive for me. Like I want to be married at some point and, and in a monogamous relationship because I enjoy it and the idea of it at least. But I've always said, like, if we're older and we're, let's say like traveling or something like that, and we decide that we both want to have a bit of fun with somebody, I'm not opposed to having that conversation. Like I said, at least the conversation and at most an agreement that we're going to explore that. So that's kind of where I'm at. I think I'll leave it there for now. Yeah, yeah.
• 10:20
  Speaker A: It's interesting that you, you said that. Imagine yourself married in a monogamous marriage, except for you know, a little asterisk there. For whatever reason, that surprises me a little bit. Reno. I don't know why that I'm.
• 10:30
  Speaker B: That I would be married and monogamous.
• 10:32
  Speaker A: Married and monogamous. Like, I don't know. For whatever reason. I don't think you've ever shared that before.
• 10:36
  Speaker B: Interesting. Okay.
• 10:37
  Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. And then the part about, you know, the, the role modeling. I think you're right. Obviously we have lots of role modeling around heterosexual monogamous relationships. But even now, as I think, like can of an older married gay couple who are happy and satisfied in their marriage, who have been together for like 30, 20 years that are, you know, older than me, and I'm like, I, I know that they exist. I'm not saying they don't because we see them in the gay men's brotherhood. And it's always so amazing to me when I see that. I just wish I had that role modeling when I was, you know, at that really impressionable age. I definitely had it in the hetero world, but it's different. All right, Matt, what about you? What benefits have you experienced in monogamous relationships?
• 11:14
  Speaker C: Yeah, this is, it's a very stimulating conversation. I think geography would play a role in this too. Like you being from Toronto, me being from Calgary, smaller, more conservative city. Like that's going to play a role in it too. And I think so what you see and how you see, like so much like anti monogamy, I think I would probably see the opposite. So like just even for example, like I just downloaded Hinge and I'm not even kidding you like my. I don't have anything with like saying I want. I prefer any relationship structure. I just keep it like hidden or whatever. I don't even select anything. Then there's about like 80% of the guys on Hinge are wanting monogamy. And on Tinder it's probably about 60. So there's a lot of guys that want monogamy, right? I think it's. But I also think monogamous couples, they. They kind of get together and then they go off, right? So they're like not visible. And I think what we see in the community is guys that are open and still dabbling in the, the community looking for sex and, you know, connection. So I think that's why. I think it's more prevalent. At least one of the reasons why I think it is. I have a similar story to Reno. I think, you know, I was in my very first long term relationship, was eight years long and the first four years was closed and then the last four were open. So I've had a really, I've had a pretty thorough experience of both monogamy and non monogamy and I'm pretty impartial. Ish. I would say I probably lean slight more towards monogamy just because of being demi and it's easier for me to get my needs met. And if I were to go into an open relationship, it would have to be a full on open relationship. Like emotions like dating, being in another relationships, almost like polyamory would probably be better for me just because I don't like hookups, right. So, but I also look at it like this. If I found a man that I was so compatible with sexually because that's really the only thing that would want to get me to open up a relationship is that there's sexual incompatibility, I think I would be very happy monogamous in a monogamous relationship. But if there were sexual incompatibilities, I would probably not be happy. So I would say that's a very important piece for me in order to maintain monogamy. As far as benefits, the first one for me is safety. Like it's just a lot safer. It's a safer container for me to be in a, in a monogamous container because it's more certain, it's more predictable. There's less drama in my opinion in monogamous relationships and or at least potential for drama. We'll say less intense emotions to probably have to deal with that can come up at least in early stages of non monogamy because there's a huge learning curve and that can bring up a ton of jealousy and insecurity and things like that. So I think for some people it's just like that would just create a big mess in the relationship. So I think it can, it can be, it can be easier to just be in a monogamous container. I think it's a different type of commitment. I think it, for me it feels more devotional in a monogamous container. Like you're devoting yourself to one person and that person is making you a priority. And so there's this, there's this feeling of being special, right. I think if I was in an open relationship, I'd feel like, oh well, my partner's sharing these special things, these sacred things that we share together in multiple relationships. So I would almost feel like what's left for me, do you know what I mean? Like I would want to have to build like special things that were Just for us. I think that would be important for me if I was going to go down the road of non monogamy. I just kept coming back to this notion of devotion. Like, I think there's this piece of devotion that, at least for me, it feels like it's like it's your lobster, like on Friends. And there's my heteronormative conditioning because it's like that's my person. You know what I mean? Like, I, I like that idea of this being my person. And there is this thing that we're, we're working to keep our spark alive, right? I think that's, that's important because there's this element of, and I hear this a lot with people that move in their relationship into non monogamy. It's like the spark died, you know, the sex got boring or these sorts of things. So there's an element of, you know, you have to get creative. You have to go on couples retreats and work on tantra and, you know, do these things to keep the, this sense of renewal in the relationship. I think that's, that's really important. And then there's, I think there's an element of growth in both containers like non monogamy and monogamy. But I'll speak to monogamy because that's what we're talking about. You can't escape the relationship for another relationship, right? You can't have a big fight and then go off and regulate with somebody else. Like, you have to really stay with that person. You have to, you know, so there's, you can't avoid, you can't avoid intimacy. You can't avoid conflict as easily, I think, in monogamous containers because it's just the two of you, right? And then just some tangible things. For me, because I'm a bit of a germaphobe, it was like less colds and flus. Like, I don't do hookups, but when I did in my 20s, I was always sick. I always had some sort of strep throat or some sort of weird fungal shit on my tongue or something. Like, seriously. So less colds and flus and things like that are, are a huge plus to being in a monogamous container. And then obviously the less risk of sti. You don't have to be on things like prep and, you know, doxy and all these things that I think aren't good for our bodies. So those are a few of mine.
• 16:22
  Speaker A: Yeah, they're all very good. I, I've also recently I didn't even know you that you just downloaded Hinge because I did too. So did I. Oh, my gosh. What is with this, guys?
• 16:30
  Speaker B: I've literally just been on, like, I've got like, in the last week, like four days.
• 16:35
  Speaker C: Yeah, it's a great app. I'm like, so by it. It's Tinder's garbage now compared to.
• 16:39
  Speaker A: I just got both, so we'll see. And I noticed the same thing about people saying monogamous, but I also wonder, do you lead with that on your profile? And then like, truly though, really though. But seriously, though, like, down the road, it's like, okay, but really, like, let's just try to be open. I think that maybe that's a bit skeptical on my part, but I do think that people will put that on a profile to like, you know, a halo effect. Like, look at me, I'm this good boy who wants to do this monogamous relationship. But I also suspect that a lot of people say that on the profile, but reality is maybe secretly.
• 17:11
  Speaker B: So are you saying you think most people are non monogamous?
• 17:14
  Speaker A: No, I'm saying that on profiles people will say that because I think that they are afraid of putting into openness for fear of, you know, drawing people away from them, like, repelling people instead of attracting people. Especially on that, like, just a little bit of my cynical mindset there.
• 17:29
  Speaker C: Hinge is interesting, though, in the sense that it's like, it requires effort. Like, you got to put the effort in to set up your profile. Like, it's not just what, willy nilly, like Tinder, you can leave it blank, whereas it won't allow you to set it up if you don't fill out the three questions and all the things on. On Hinge. And I think monogamous men are like, they're more devotional minded. They want to put that effort into, like, finding their lobster. Right? Like, so I think.
• 17:54
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 17:54
  Speaker C: So that's why I think Hinge tends to attract more monogamous people. Yeah, that would be my perspective.
• 18:00
  Speaker A: We'll have to touch base in a couple weeks, guys. See how it goes.
• 18:02
  Speaker B: Yes.
• 18:03
  Speaker A: Or all new to this. It's amazing.
• 18:05
  Speaker B: We should do a whole episode on our, like, dating lives.
• 18:08
  Speaker A: Yeah. So as I was saying, this is just. This is actually really relevant for me, as a lot of these episodes have been for me, very personal. You know, I'm at a place in life where I'm asking this question of myself. A conversation with Matt the other day, and, you know, he had asked me this very same question. And you Know, I was saying to him that, yeah, I did the monogamous relationships. I did the open relationship check, check. I've done them both. I get them both. They were both, you know, long term. So now that I have done both, I have more of an objective understanding. And like, everything, they both have their pros and cons. So in speaking to the benefits of monogamy, for me, one of them is it's just simpler with respect to communication and boundaries. Like, there's a whole element of not having to discuss things like agreements and structures and rules and boundaries. Like, when it comes to openness up, you just. This just doesn't exist. You don't have to do that. So it's simple. I'm. I'm yours, you're mine. We don't entertain other partners, period. Next question. Right. And that frees up a lot of our time and energy to focus on other areas of our relationship, which is really nice. And the other thing is, is what Matt had said, which is, you know, the reduced risk of STIs, because it's such a relief not to have to worry about who got what. Did I get this and give it to you? Did you get this and give it to me? And did I give it to all my partners and all your partners? So it significantly lowers the STIs and it just alleviates all that stress and anxiety because anyone who's had an STI knows it's. There's a lot of anxiety there, and it's just highly inconvenient to get that. So those are the two main ones for me. And then I would second what Matt had said and what I see in a lot of other couples. Like, I coach a lot of open relationships couples, and a lot of the times their reason, I always ask, what's the reason? Like, why do you want this if they're going into it? Or why did you enter this if they're already there? And for the couples that did it and their primary reason was to escape some kind of work to do in the relationship, it doesn't end well. It hardly ever do. They say, oh, yeah, that fixed everything. Now we're great. It usually just unravels it further. So, you know, I want to bring note to that as well. If. If you're thinking that it's a cure for your relationship issues, it's not. My friends.
• 20:16
  Speaker C: Well said.
• 20:17
  Speaker A: Yeah, it's like that, that devotion. I like that word, Matt. Devotion. It's kind of like if it's you and me and we're not going Elsewhere. And there's no exit ramp. There's no way to escape this. And it's like you and me against the world. Like, we gotta figure this out or we don't, and that's it. And it really just eliminates a lot of your options, which is, can be a good thing.
• 20:33
  Speaker B: I have a friendship right now that is unique. And one of the things I'm noticing is when we experience conflict and we, we have to keep coming back and choosing to be in connection. It's been an incredibly healing and transformative experience. You know, every time it's just like, okay, you know, I'm going to choose to take a breath and instead of closing, open and stay open and lean in and move through this like challenging moment, you know, that we're having. And as someone who previously in like previous years would have sort of cut and run or like just shut down and step back, this has been really, really transformative. You know, these opportunities, whether it's in friendship or romantic partnership, to keep leaning in and doing the work. It's so deepening. It's so transformative, it's so healing.
• 21:36
  Speaker A: Yeah, I think you get better at conflict resolution when you don't have an escape plan or an exit road. You just, you have to sit there and deal with it and learn how to reconnect and repair. Yeah.
• 21:46
  Speaker C: So you're making me, you're bringing me down memory lane. So this is exactly why I opened the relationship. So four years in Lost Attraction, I was closed down. I was traumatized. Now looking back, I didn't know how to bring emotion and spirit, like soul into sex. So I was having physical sex with my partner for four years. And of course like one, the dick gets boring if you're just having physical sex. Right. It's the same dick night after night. But if you're not bringing in the other three domains, the mind, the emotions and the spirit or the soul into sex, it's, you know, so I think that's what I did. I opened my relationship up to escape the. I'm not attracted to him anymore because I didn't, I didn't have an open heart to be able to connect with him. So that's what I say. Like, you know, non monogamy can be an escape to like a fear of intimacy, like having to take it to that next level. And in all cases, obviously, I'm just saying for some people it's. And I like what you said, Michael. It will not fix it.
• 22:43
  Speaker B: Like, you know, it's post conflict. Dick is amazing too. You know, oh, God, it's so good. Like, I love when you get to that point in a conflict with someone where you've, like, it's been grueling, but you've, like, worked it out. My whole body's just like, get inside of me right now, you know, Like, I just want to jump them. So that's another benefit, I would say.
• 23:06
  Speaker A: We got lots, guys, lots of benefits. All right, let's see from our audience. If you're watching us on YouTube, tell us your experience with monogamy and specifically, what do you love about it? Okay, Put your comments in YouTube. We'll check them out. And if you're enjoying the conversation we're having here, we invite you to join our weekly events within the Gay Men's Brotherhood. We have sharing circles where you'll have a chance to share your own experiences on the topics. And the topic this month is relationship structures. We also have our connection circles, which are smaller, more intimate breakout rooms where you can discuss the topics on the podcast with other members of the community. If you're interested in attending, go to www.gaymansbrotherhood.com and check out the Events section to RSVP. If you don't have Facebook, that's okay. Just get on our email list and we will email you the zoom link to attend. All right, let's shift this conversation to stigma. The myth that gay couples can't be monogamous raises an important question. Is there stigma within our community against monogamy? Why or why not?
• 24:06
  Speaker B: Yeah, I think that there is, but I guess the angle I want to take is a lot of what we see in relationship to relationship originated around heteronormativity and heteronormative relationships. And we're queer people who were alienated from that particular group. And so I think that in a sense, it would. It would make sense that many of us would reject things associated, right? And so I think that, in part, would contribute to any sort of stigma if there was one. I think also there's probably a notion that monogamy is boring. You know, it's not sexy, it's not interesting, it's not edgy, it's not dynamic. And I would say that that is inaccurate in the same way that the notion that meditation is boring is inaccurate. You know, it's like, yes, there's a degree of, let's say, boredom that might arise or set in, but if you've ever sat on a mat or a pillow for an extended period of time, if you sit long enough, things get really fucking interesting. You know, I would say the same thing about a monogamous relationship. If you stay in monogamy long enough, like, you're gonna meet some stuff, you're gonna meet yourself, you're gonna meet your partner, you're gonna meet and discover things that are probably unexpected to you. So, you know, I would say, like, let's sort of toss that notion, you know, I mean, those are the two that, that I think come up as well. A third one, I guess would be that it's like, that it's limiting in a way. And I would say, yeah, sure, it has its limitations, but so does non monogamy, you know, and so I really think that it ultimately, you know, what it perhaps boils down to is more so like, not which one is right or wrong, but which one is right for you, you know, at any given time. And I think it's worth meeting the notion of monogamy or non monogamy with a curiosity, enough curiosity to explore. I would say if you're someone who stigmatizes monogamy, like, there's your work, maybe meet it with more curiosity and less judgment and see what's there for you and why you're resisting it. If you're someone who in the reverse stigmatizes non monogamy, I would say to you, curiosity, right? Like, what's there? What's the resistance there? What does it bring up for you? Not because I think you should suddenly do it, but more so just because maybe there's something there to learn, you know, to discover. So, yeah, I think that's it. And then I, I already said it, but like, yeah, monogamy is for straight people, for breeders, you know, it's like, well, not necessarily. And they take everything. Fuck that. You know, don't. No, no, no, no. We can have that if we want.
• 27:22
  Speaker A: Amen. Yeah, that notion that it's boring is when I hear a lot and I just gets under my skin. This whole topic gets under my skin when people are judging. But relationship structures are not boring. They're completely neutral. They have absol affect to them. It's the people, it's the relationship. It's how you relate. It's. It's your dynamic, it's the things you do, it's your rituals. Like, that's what makes it boring. If you're in a monogamous relationship and you're bored, don't look at your relationship structure necessarily, unless, like, you know something about sexuality there. But, like, don't blame a structure that is completely neutral. Yeah, it's funny yeah, you like to use these things as the scapegoat issues that are internal issues.
• 27:58
  Speaker B: I think that's why, like, I sort of fantasize about being in couple or like marriage with my best friend. Like, I want my partner to be my homie as well. This is so cheesy. But like Shaun T. And Scott photobombs. Like, I love their relationship. They're this multiracial couple. They're married, they have two kids. They've been together for ages. Like, they're both just really fun and really creative. And I think they even have like an only fans or something like that, which is wild and so cool. But they just have what seems to be this really fun, beautiful marriage and friendship. Like, they go traveling together and they, you know, they'll like hang up by the pool together and they dance and they're like, they're both in on the fun. And I'm like, that's goals for me, you know, Like, I want to be married to my buddy, my best friend, and I want us to always be like, keeping things interesting or just like enjoying being boring together too, you know? Yeah. I digress. Yeah.
• 29:02
  Speaker A: What's wrong with being boring? That's great. That sounds wonderful. I would love to be bored with somebody right now. Right. Like, there's no such thing as boring. It's all a mindset anyway. Tell us, tell us, is there a stigma? Matt?
• 29:13
  Speaker C: I was going to say fuck being sexy in the relationship. I want to be cozy.
• 29:16
  Speaker B: So I love this.
• 29:18
  Speaker C: Yeah, I think. Yeah. Everything you said, Reno, is pretty bang on for what I was going to say. There's, I think there's a pressure to be, like, maybe not a stigma, but a pressure to not be heteronormative. And there's this notion of, you know, it's progressive to be in a non monogamous relationship or in a polyamorous relationship? I think so. There's this notion because I think that's how it appears. It's like, oh, we're, we're. We start monogamous and we graduate into this. Right. So for some couples, that's, that's what they do. But I think again, it's the intention of why we choose the relationship structure. Right. Am I choosing non monogamy to avoid intimacy? Well, that's not progressive. Am I choosing monogamy because I have an anxious attachment and I. I'm extremely possessive and that's not progressive. Right. So you got to look at the intention of why you're choosing the, the relationship structure. Yeah, I don't really have a whole lot else to say other than that, because you pretty much hit the nail on the head, Reno.
• 30:12
  Speaker A: Yeah, solid point. And I would say I would agree with everything you both said. But this judgment, if I may get on my soapbox, is something that I. I get so frustrated. And you're right. This. The comments on YouTube, we see it in the Facebook group, any kind of judgment does harm, but in this specific flavor of it, it really does dismiss monogamous gay couples who are having a great time, living their cozy, wonderful life, happy as a clam, quietly, you know, doing their thing. It also, for people who are single and want to be monogamous, I see a harm there as well. Because if there's this notion that, oh, monogamy is undesirable or not progressive or, you know, unattainable, then it dampens the spirit of those who want it and who do genuinely choose it. Then there's a pressure like, oh, I feel like I should have to want this thing that I just. Actually, I don't genuinely want. And it just creates a lot of unnecessary mental inner drama. And it is a totally a pressure to conform, which is the irony. Guys like gay people, queer people putting pressure to conform. Another queer people like, can we talk about this for a little while? Yeah, yeah. You know, especially if you genuinely prefer exclusivity.
• 31:19
  Speaker B: Can I say one more thing? I just thought of this. So the other thing that I think monogamy does, this just clicked for me. I don't know if it's totally accurate. It's still forming, is I have to be more. Have to be. Get to be more selective about who I land on because I'm choosing to be with that person over an extended period of time, I think. And forgive me if this comes across as a judgment. I don't know that it's meant to be, though. I think with non monogamy, there are more options. And so I wonder if there's the potential for. I'm not saying this happens all the time. The potential for people to be more like, surface in their choosing. You know, so they're looking for appearance or they're looking for momentary satisfaction as opposed to depth. Right. If I know that I'm out there looking for or being open to someone who I'm going to spend my life with indefinitely. I'm definitely not just choosing you based on looks. Right? Like, there's gotta be something there if we're gonna be kicking it till death do us part, you know, it's not enough that you're Cute. Like, are we besties? You know, essentially. So I think that makes a difference too. Is it? It ups your, your filter, your discernment.
• 32:49
  Speaker A: You know, I think if you look at any of the videos we've done, this one is the first one we've actually done specifically on monogamous relationships. We've done quite a few on non monogamy, at least I have. And openness. But what you find looking in the comments or even when people make posts about this in our Facebook group is that there's judgment and stigma on both sides one way or another. Open peeps are judging the closed and the closed peeps are judging the open. And I'm here saying, well, just leave fucking people alone. Mind your own business. What's it matter to you? Right? Like when I see other people judging relationship structures and I'm going to piss a lot of people off right now, like harmfully. Harmfully. There's a difference between like having a, a discussion about it kind of versus like this judgment into this hardcore nasty judgment that comes with it. I'm talking about those. What I liken it to is I imagine you go to like a restaurant and you're looking at a menu and you're thinking about something to order and you see something on the menu you don't like and then you call a waiter over and you're like, excuse me, why is this on the menu? This is disgusting. This isn't right. Or why is this on the menu? This is so boring and heteronormative. Ew. Like, bitch, leave people alone. Just look at the other side of the menu and order what you want. Focus on what you want and leave the rest out of it.
• 33:59
  Speaker B: Amen. Yeah.
• 34:01
  Speaker A: I want to also mention one thing about the research. I had a note here for the research. The research that I found, and this is for everyone out there, saw no statistical difference in the level of happiness or stability between monogamous and non monogamous relationships. So let's put that myth to bed while we're at it. Statistically, there's no difference.
• 34:20
  Speaker C: Okay, So I want to say one thing. I wonder if there'd be a, like a difference in like qualitative research if you, you were to look at dating somebody who's dating seeking open versus somebody who's dating seeking monogamy. Because I think Reno has a good point. If I'm dating seeking monogamy, I'm really honing in on like, so my pool is smaller. If I'm dating as an open person, I'm willing to Date Joe, because I have 60% compatibility with him. I think there's going to be a higher incidence and ability to connect as somebody who's open and dating versus somebody who's monogamous in dating. And that's why I love the term friends with intimacy, because that's for me, as a somebody who wants to seek a monogamous relationship, I can have friends with intimacy while I'm waiting for Mr. Wright to come along.
• 35:06
  Speaker A: Yeah, I would agree with that theory, Matt. I think that that's pretty accurate. If there's any stats out there, anyone listening, drop it in the comments, let us know. I'd love to read it further to my rabbit hole. Well, you know, what they always say is the skills you need for a thriving relationship are the same skills regardless of whether it's open or closed, right? So those skills are just relationship skills, period. And the kind of relationship you're in doesn't really matter. And they're the same skills that we teach in the relationships pathway of the coaching collection. Things like effective communication, how to have difficult conversations, setting boundaries, developing intimacy, emotional intelligence. So we've got 23 different lessons under that relationships pathway, plus an entire course called building better relationships, which again, is universal to any kind of relationship. There are skills and lessons that deepen your relationships, including the one with yourself. In addition to that, we've got another course called healing your shame and 45 total videos in there. So head over to www.gayman goingdeeper.com for more info on that. All right, let's show some love to the happy, satisfied, monogamous gay relationships out there. What does it take for monogamy to work in gay relationships?
• 36:22
  Speaker B: Willingness. Yeah, willingness. I think that's like maybe at the top for me and maybe even before that. Are you clear that monogamy is something that you want and that you want monogamy to work for you? And if you're not sure, as I said earlier, my recommendation is like, go explore. You know, go explore, experiment with non monogamy and explore monogamy and see which one you feel you resonate with most. And notice your judgments, notice your edges, notice where you are resistant. You know, question whether there's something you're avoiding, whether it's in the direction of monogamy or non monogamy. You know, I mean, that's how I learned, honestly, like, it was messy. And I think that's another thing is like, you know, are you open to things being a bit messy at first until they're not? Because I had to like fumble, you know, it's like, oh, I want to be monogamous. Wait, no, let's like try non monogamy. Okay. Tried it, not really into it, you know, and now I've sort of landed somewhere. Somewhere sort of. Yes. Somewhere more clear. Right. My preference is monogamy. And there's an openness in the curiosity. I think there always will be. You know, that's how I operate. What does it take for monogamy to work in your relationships?
• 37:47
  Speaker C: Yeah.
• 37:47
  Speaker B: Willingness, clarity. And I think very importantly, you know, there's two angles, let's say to relationship. There's like the relationship I have to myself and let's say three. Even the relationship I have to myself, the relationship I have to my partner, and then the relationship I have to our relationship, which becomes its own entity. And so I think willingness to pour into those cups and see, that's the thing. It's like, it does take work. And I've just described three relationships within one relationship. Right. And this isn't to scare anyone away from non monogamy, but take that and multiply it and you've got your work cut out for you, you know, So I would say, like, be aware of that. It's work, you know, whether it's one or multiple partners. Right. So yeah, willingness, curiosity, patience. I would say it takes for monogamy to work in gay relationships. And I think I'll probably just leave it there because I know y'all have some. Some answers to that as well. But those are the first things that come up. Yeah.
• 39:01
  Speaker A: Willingness, curiosity and patience. Yeah.
• 39:04
  Speaker B: Yeah, right.
• 39:05
  Speaker A: Matt, what would you add to that?
• 39:06
  Speaker C: I like that, Reno, because it's, it's make me. Makes me think too. It's like, you know, time. Time is really like I of the essence in my life. I'm very busy. I don't know if I'd even able to handle an open relationship of the way that I would want to have it. Meaning, like, it would have to be open emotionally as well. It would just be. It would occupy so much bandwidth for me. So that is a positive of a monogamous relationship. It's not going to take up as much bandwidth for me. So what does it take? While I reflect on my. My experience of being non monogamous for four years. And the reason why I opened it is because I didn't want to have the difficult conversations. I didn't want to bring myself forward. I didn't want to be authentic. I didn't want to be vulnerable. I didn't know how to have Intimacy, right? So those are like, absolutely essential in a successful monogamous relationship. Authenticity, vulnerability and intimacy, Right? And those two things, authenticity and vulnerability, are really what create intimacy. So I think that would be the first thing, the first pillar. And then devotion is again, it's just. I love this word devotion and exclusive commitment to one another, right? It's like that's. That's what monogamy is. It's an exclusive commitment. We're not bringing anybody else into our container. This is just ours. And I think that is where the trust builds in the relationship, is that we're exclusive and we're devoted to one another. So I think that's important. And then this is. This is a really important one, I think self control and discipline. Because I hear what you're saying, Michael, about variety, and I think men, there's. Well, actually, I'm not going to even just say that. I'm going to say there's two types of people. There's people who are more prone to variety and there's people who are more prone to comfort, in my opinion. Like, some people love novelty and some people love cozy. And I think those are the two people and that. That's what they're seeking when they seek either of these things. And I think people that are on that side of the spectrum that are more into that cozy vibe and they want just one person. There's an element of, you have to practice self control and discipline. Because, you know, every time I get hungry and crave ice cream, I don't just grab ice cream and eat it, right? So it's like, we have to be the same way with sex and like, you know, these sorts of things. It's like, you know, I'm not. I'm not going to speak for everybody. I will speak for myself. It's like every time I have a craving for something, whether it's sex or porn or any of these things, and if I feed that craving, right, like, it's not. I don't think it's healthy. It turns into compulsion. And so I think there's an element of self control and discipline that's required. And you know, even in monogamous relationships with porn use, I've seen porn use, you know, couples not working on their stuff, and then one of them starts using porn a lot because they can't seek outside the relationship. And then the porn compulsion becomes an issue in the relationship. So again, it's about working on ourselves and practicing these things, but also ownership of desire, right? Like, talking about that like it's okay in a monogamous relationship to have desire. And that's why I love role playing because I'm very creative and I'm very like, I like to go places with my mind and my imagination. So I'll role play with partners, like usually later in the relationship to keep things exciting. And you can have the type of sex you want to have with other people, but have it with your partner and just really get into character. It can be a lot of fun. Right. So again, creativity, I think, is a big piece to that as well. And then like doing deep inner work to keep the relationship cycles of renewal alive. Renewal is so important because just like a skin or a snake sheds its skin, so does the relationship. Whether it's non monogamous or monogamous, you're constantly shedding skin. We're changing. Who I was yesterday is different from who I am today, truly, like on, even on a cellular level. So I think having to rediscover your partner constantly through strong communication and being open to trying new things and these things really, like, I think monogamy can be a beautiful container if you put the work in.
• 42:54
  Speaker A: Yeah. I mean, that, that. The only thing I would add really, for specifically gay relationships is that sexual compatibility, it makes it real easy when you're sexually compatible to stay monogamous. So, and then a commitment to keep that spark alive. Because if, if you're in this for the long haul, you know, it's very natural in any relationship to have sexual ebbs and flows. Different people have different libidos. Things are happening, you know, it's gonna, it's gonna come and go. So you have to agree that that's gonna happen and be prepared to handle that and then have that genuine desire and willingness. Both of you have talked about that, even to set time to talk about it. So, you know, one year in, maybe you're both like, no, we definitely don't want to be open. But five years in, maybe one of you might change your mind on that and say, maybe I am. Maybe I do want explorers. And so I think it's important that both couples have that safety, emotional safety, to be able to talk about anything. And that doesn't mean you need to do it. You can talk about something and still choose not to. It's almost like you kind of bring it up and say, hey, I've been thinking about this. What are our thoughts on it? Let's reaffirm our decision. Let's reaffirm that we still do want to maintain monogamy and like, just Continue to have that discussion every so often, ensuring that you're both on the same page. And I think that level of commitment and that kind of check in can really help each other. You know, make sure that you want this and also your partner wants this. It just gives you an extra bit of assurance, I think.
• 44:13
  Speaker C: Yeah. Nobody wants to be trapped in a monogamous relationship when they don't want to.
• 44:17
  Speaker A: And. Right.
• 44:18
  Speaker C: Also it goes the other way where I've heard of, you know, one partner wants it and the other partner doesn't, so they'll go along with it just to. Right. And it's like. So there's that element of. That can make it challenging in relationship dynamic.
• 44:30
  Speaker A: Yeah, it's fluid.
• 44:31
  Speaker C: Right.
• 44:31
  Speaker A: People are. People who are open can choose to go back and not open it and vice versa. Like. And that's the. I think that's the beauty of any relationship is having a partner. That's something I want, is having a partner who's not afraid to have any conversation. And as long as we can come to an agreement and land somewhere they're both happy with, then great, it's a party. In that case, then it's never boring, even if we choose monogamy every single time. All right, guys, thank you for your time today in discussing monogamous relationships. Thank you to our viewers and listeners for sticking with us for this juicy topic. Reminder, guys, that this podcast and YouTube channel are listener and viewer supported. So if you enjoy what we're creating here, you can support us by making a donation to the show using the link in the show notes. If you're on YouTube, you can always click on that thanks button and give us a little thank you there. You can also subscribe to early access option on Apple Podcast to listen ad free and gain early access to episodes before they are released to the public. All of your support helps us to continue making content and supporting our community. So we thank you so, so much in advance and we hope to see you at the next event. Thanks, guys. Bye.
• 45:48
  Speaker C: Sa.