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S8 E2 | How To Deal With Emotional Abuse · Therapy and Theology

• Shae Hill: Hi, friends. Welcome back to the Therapy and Theology Podcast by Proverbs 31 Ministries, where we help you work through what you walk through. I'm your host, Shae Hill, and I'm so excited for you to hear another great conversation from Lysa TerKeurst, counselor Jim Cress, and Dr. Joel Muddamalle. Remember, each episode of this season is gonna help you get out of any dysfunctional dances and be bravely honest about what you may be experiencing behind closed doors. Today, they're going to talk about emotional abuse, both what it is and what it isn't, as well as the terms love bombing and gaslighting. Before we jump in, I wanna let you know about two things. First, we want to hear from you guys, our listeners. By clicking the link in our show notes, you can submit a question or even a voice memo for Lysa, Jim, and Joel to listen to. Your question could be answered on a future episode, so make sure you check it out. Secondly, download a free resource by Lysa titled, “Trust is a Track Record, Five Scriptural Truths to Remember God's Faithfulness.” This resource will provide you with prayers to declare when you want to stay connected to God, guided journal prompts to help you work through your honest thoughts and struggles about trusting Him and more. Because we help you work through what you walk through here on Therapy and Theology, I wanted to make sure you knew about this free resource that could really help you just do that. So download it today using the link in our show notes. Now let's jump in to hear from Lysa, Jim, and Joel. Lysa TerKeurst: Emotional abuse is one of the most underused terms and overused terms that I think people are using in conversation right now today as we sit here. And so I wanna approach our topic here with great sensitivity. We're not trying to, once again, go into your situation and prescribe exactly what you're supposed to do. We're not gonna tell you what to think. We're gonna give you a lot to think about on today's episode as we jump into two tactics that are sometimes used to emotionally abuse people, and that is love bombing and gaslighting. So, Jim, I'm gonna turn to you first. Jim Cress: Sure. Lysa TerKeurst: About the love bombing thing. I'd love for you to give us some kind of orientation exactly what it is, and then I wanna talk about how I have experienced that before. Jim Cress: I like that you said not so much the definition of, but the orientation too because it has many nuances, I think, love bombing does. So I say often they're coming on thick and fast. I mean, they're coming on and there are two, two different types or or entrances I've seen love bombing come in early in a relationship and it come could come from their anxious attachment style or – Lysa TerKeurst: Like dating. Jim Cress: Yeah. Just I mean, it's like and often people will say, like, woah, boy or woah. You know, are you wanting to call me all the time? We've just started dating. Obviously, on the sexual arena, it could be like, well, let's go sexual early in dating. Right? But they will come on quick with all kinds of stuff and whatever love language stuff or flowers or we we gotta be together. We gotta be on the phone every night or on FaceTime. Lysa TerKeurst: Gifts and kind of extravagant actions. Jim Cress: Which some people may say, wow, this is great. But after a while, it's like, that's just too much too soon. Also, there is that entrance where a person has not been love bombed. Maybe they had some dating there together, including in a marriage, and then a person begins to pull back appropriate. Let's say, for example, one example in healthy boundaries, like not we. I'm not doing this dysfunctional dance anymore. I will begin to have boundaries and they pull back or even more someone saying, hey. If this is where you are, I'm going to separate or we break up in a relationship or in a marriage literally this, separate like this unhealthy dance that you're doing. I'm not gonna continue to be that close or intimate with you. And then bam. I mean, it's like circus parade. You got the jugglers. I mean, they're just pouring it on quick. That's all with a hook. I call that a boomerang in a relationship. I'm doing all that love bombing to boomerang back to get you back. And that's a high dopamine high, norepinephrine high that someone says you moved away and I got you back. Lysa TerKeurst: So I have experienced this before in a relationship where there was a lot of rejection and a lot of hurt, a lot of pain, And I eventually made some decisions to take agency in that relationship and put up some healthy boundaries and honestly create some healthy separations, to give myself time to get emotionally regulated. And it's like, okay. If you're gonna reject me, then I am also going to create some safety started to pull back and maybe even it wasn't that I was rejecting them. I was drawing healthy boundaries, but they perceived it as me rejecting them. Then all of the sudden, it went from famine of no attention to an absolute feast of so much attention. So what this did to me emotionally is I fell right into it. I was like, wow. Okay. So now this is everything I've ever dreamed of. I've dreamed of them saying, like, you're so beautiful and there's no one in the world that's as amazing as you. But I want you to listen to kind of the extreme nature of that. And it went from the famine of, like, no flowers, no gifts, no love letters, to all of a sudden things were showing up on my, my front doorstep constantly. Jim Cress: Amazon was very happy. Lysa TerKeurst: Amazon was happy. The florist was happy, you know? And so the way that I took that then, because I fell right into the hook, like you said. The way I took it is this is everything I've ever dreamed of. Well, yes, the rejection was horrible and the betrayal was really, really heartbreaking. But if it got me to the place where now we are gonna have this relationship that I've always dreamed we could have bombs away. Then this is amazing. Right? Let's do it. The problem is then once you settle into this is now a safe person, I can totally trust this person again. Look how much they love me. You know? I really have great hope for the relationship. Then all of a sudden, it cycles around to now there's gonna be a famine again. And in that famine, now the rejection, the betrayal, the hurt, the heartbreak, it's almost even deeper. You know, like the Bible says, hope deferred makes the heart sick. And it's like, I had no hope. I got great hope. Now my hopes are dashed, but it becomes a cycle. So then, okay, they pull back, they reject, whatever, but they still don't want to lose the relationship. So then as I pull back to create safety, draw healthy boundaries, then all of a sudden, it goes from famine to feast again. And then it gets my hopes up again. And then I'm like, wow. Okay. This time, it's real. This time, they really do. They love me, and and they've made some mistakes for sure, but all people make mistakes. You know? Jim Cress: Rationalizing. Lysa TerKeurst: But what I missed is no. This is a pattern. And the thrill of getting you back is really the motivation. It has nothing to do with me. Like, it wasn't it wasn't so that I could be well cared for and loved and treasured and all of that. It was because it was thrilling, the thrill of the chase. Like, it was thrilling to the pursuit but then the capture lost all its thrill. Jim Cress: Notice the dance real quick you've said so eloquently. You were on this side, and this is everything I could ever want. Mercy and compassion, of course. We get to be human. This was everything I ever wanted. And in that cycle running around a little bit like the victim triangle, maybe, but all of a sudden you've literally just said in a different way, and that other person then finally got everything they had always wanted was that's a powerful thing to go. She's bouncing away, and I can do all this love bombing, and I get her right back. So you, unhealthy as it may have been, were getting everything you wanted. But once you responded and loved the gifts and all that and maybe said, okay. Maybe this person's changing, they in that moment, including dopamine firing in their brain, got everything they want. Plan worked. Joel Muddamalle: I think what's, fascinating about that, is the way that God designed us for love compared to the way love bombing, and I know we're gonna talk about gaslighting in a second, how that works, where God designed us to experience, this consistency of love over a period of time, you know? Lysa TerKeurst: So not the famine, feast. Famine feast. Jim Cress: That's a bipolar time thing. Joel Muddamalle: That wasn't in my notes. I'm gonna spring it on you guys. Lysa TerKeurst: Okay. Please do. Joel Muddamalle: Like the thing that a theologian should never do, but probably Jim Cress: You're you're outing yourself now. Lysa TerKeurst: Are you about the love bomb us? Joel Muddamalle: No. No. No. This is not love bombing. This is not love bombing. This is not love bombing. Jim Cress: If you would. Joel Muddamalle: Right. No. This is not love bombing. This is just, like, like, let's take a step into speculation. What like, let's play a game of what if. Right? Okay. And we're going to do a what if with God. Lysa TerKeurst: He's so off guard. Jim Cress: Are we left the contestants? Lysa TerKeurst: He's so off guard. Joel Muddamalle: I'm so off guard. Where it is. But I think it's gonna be good. Jim Cress: Rogue over there. Joel Muddamalle: Because it just kinda dawned on me. It's like, okay. Imagine if God showed his love to the people of Israel through the context of love bombing. Okay? So, like, just think about it. Imagine if God doesn't give the people of Israel in the wilderness wandering daily manna But instead he goes, hey. One day out of the week, I'm just gonna throw up a whole bunch of manna, a whole bunch of food, but then y'all gonna starve for the rest of the week. You know? Well, he doesn't do that. Imagine if, God was like, hey. You're you're wandering the wilderness and, you know, there's a pillar of fire by night and a pillar of cloud by day. But imagine if God just was just like, randomly, I'm just gonna stop. I'm just not gonna show up. And now star view, right, and then show back up with and and and I just think that it's a fascinating concept. The the principle that we find throughout scripture in terms of how God is actually trying to teach and train us to experience love is consistent, faithful, covenantal love. The Hebrew word for this is is hesed. It's a it's a hard word to translate. Most of your Bible translate if you have, like, the ESV, it says, steadfast love. I love that. But if I were to kinda translate it, I would, use a very long, long chain of words. It is the hesed love of God is, faithful, enduring, loving, steadfast, covenantal, never ceasing, never. I mean, that is the essence of what that hesed kind of love is. And what's fascinating with love bombing is love bombing is not a hesed kind of love. There's not faithful endurance. There's not covenant loyalty. There's not a never ceasing. And the the goal of love bombing, it sounds like, to me, is to overwhelm your senses to a point to compromise your ability to think rationally. Jim Cress: Very well put. Joel Muddamalle: If you are being overwhelmed and you can't think rationally, now your affections are actually in a place to be able to be manipulated. Lysa TerKeurst: And, Jim, you've taught me, and I think this is really important, that love bombing nature of, like, I don't want you I do want you lavish, lavish, lavish, lavish. You know? I don't want you. I do want you. Lavish, lavish, lavish. All kinds of gifts. You know? Statements. Big big extremes. Then what's formed in intensity is in that kind of intensity of the famine, the feast, the famine, the feast. That intensity, it it's it's a relationship built on intensity, not intimacy. And intimacy, that consistency that, like, I know I can count on you. Yes. There's gonna be little ups and downs, but there's not gonna be massive rejection and then big intense love and then massive rejection and then seemingly big intense love. Right? Jim Cress: That sets up emotional whiplash. It's from a point. It's just it's like, woah. Wow. And and what I call also emotion emotional vertigo because most people know what vertigo is. Some have experienced it. But what I call a relational or emotional vertigo is I begin to spin, like, I don't even know what's going on here. So that backlash, whiplash of love bombing and, certainly, as we move in to gaslighting, it's very disregulating to one system. While this other person over here, they're just having a party. Lysa TerKeurst: It that's so true. And I do think here's something really important. I don't want you to all go, oh, wow. I sent my wife flowers two times last week. Is that love bombing? Thank you for sending your wife flowers two times last week. That's called romance, you know? And that is lovely. Some people might even call it foreplay inside of a marriage. Okay. Sure. But I'm just saying, like, to love your person well. And, of course, like, when you're dating, you know, there is gonna be, like, extra love notes. Joel Muddamalle: It's gonna be extravagant. Lysa TerKeurst: Yeah. Joel Muddamelle: That there's a difference between – Lysa TerKeurst: But there's a motivation factor that – Jim Cress: A good one. I'll say motivation. Joel Muddamalle: And there's rationale. Jim Cress: Yeah. Joel Muddamalle: Like, you can look at it and evaluate and be like, oh, there's rationale for why there might be a little bit more extravagance in this expression of love. I think that the the challenge here is when there is, love bombing and the extravagance gets into a level of intensity and there's a catch that's associated. Lysa TerKeurst: Yes. Joel Muddamalle: And trying to be wise. Lysa TerKeurst: Strings attached. Joel Muddamalle: Yes. And you're trying to figure out what is the catch. And if you always, like, you know, something that that it's like it happens with my kids. Maybe I shouldn't be saying this, but it's like all of a sudden, my kids are like, dad, I wanna wash your car, and dad, I wanna, you know, I'm gonna do all the dishes, and Lysa TerKeurst: and you're just the best dad. Joel Muddamalle: You're the best dad in the whole world. I could not have asked for a better dad. You know? I'm just like, I feel so good. Jim Cress :That's the boomerang is. Joel Muddamalle: And then it's like, hey, dad. I wanna go out with my friends and have a sleepover tonight. And, by the way, can I have a hundred bucks? Bucks? Like, excuse yes. Like, because I feel like I wanna keep the momentum of love that's coming my way, but also, dude, you just manipulated me big time -- Jim Cress: Yeah. With, like, trying to show love on me. It's like, oh, there are strings attached to this. Lysa TerKeurst: So I think you bring up a good point, Joel, is the love bombing then can I think where we need to take a step back from it is what – Joel Muddamalle: -- my kids do love me. They that doesn't happen all the time. Lysa TerKeurst: They do think he's the greatest dad. Joel Muddamalle: I'm sorry. Lysa TerKeurst: But I will say the the where the line gets crossed is love bombing. The the motive behind it is not to love and care well for the person that you're giving these gifts to and saying these big bombastic statements to and all of that. The motivation isn't about them. It's about getting what you want in the moment that you want it. And so I think that's really, really important. And never forget too that when you're when you're kind of in an unhealthy relationship that all of a sudden starts to appear amazing, but then the pattern is we're gonna go right back into these unhealthy things. This is what we call the the dysfunctional dance. And I think it's really important to, to pay attention to this and acknowledge this is what I'm experiencing. So now – Jim Cress: Can I throw in a quick test real quick? Lysa TerKeurst: Yes. Quick. Jim Cress: James chapter four and following. Why are there fightings and quarrels among you? It's like, oh, I wanna hear the answer to this one. This is the bible. Why are there fightings and quarrels among you? Is it not this? There's something you want, which is a demand. You better give me that. Think of a love bomber. There's something you want and you don't get it. You don't get what you want. So you what? Get mad. Get angry. You know what it says? It says so you murder. So that and you have not because you asked not all you asked to consume it upon your own lust, you adulterous people. Lysa TerKeurst: And desires that rage within you. Yeah. Jim Cress: Just just all this stuff that they're so the love bombing always ends up being true bombing because underneath that, when they don't get what they want, there is rage underneath that. Even you said they didn't rage, they just moved on, went to another relationship. Trust me. There will be rage in their heart going on if we go too far into pornography. We have what we call eroticized rage, just mad at a spouse, and I'll go do this, shutting them out stonewalling. But that's that piece of love bombing. They're always after the hundred dollar bill. They're always after getting what they want. So they will move on, and that bombing turns into another type of bombing. Lysa TerKeurst: Yep. So And it's hate bombing. Right? Jim Cress: Oh, it will definitely go on. Joel Muddamalle: Yeah. And I'll just, jump this in here because some people might just be wondering, like this this is what I'd be wondering. It's like, well, how do I know what's genuine love and what's love bombing? Like, how do I make make a a Jim Cress: Sure. Joel Muddamalle: -- Distinction between them? So I just wanna give you first Corinthians thirteen four through seven, which I think is gonna be a perfect diagnostic tool to determine the difference between authentic hesed kind of love versus love bombing. This is what Paul says to a church in Corinth that is honestly whack and wild. They're going through all kinds of stuff. And, and and Paul is like, listen, everybody, pay attention. This is what love is. Love is patient. And I think that when he starts with patience, that is our instant, like, rebuttal to love bombing. You know? There's there's a patient or and he goes, and it's kind. It doesn't envy. It's not boastful. Right? It's not arrogant. Like, pay attention to the to the words and the phrases in love bombing. What's the goal that the other person is trying to get? Are they trying to get, boastfulness? Are they trying to, like, affirm their own arrogance that they're, you know, there's something super special. Lysa TerKeurst: And are they trying to do nice things and then tell lots of people about it? Joel Muddamalle: Yes. Lysa TerKeurst: Like, look how great. I love her. Joel Muddamalle: That's exactly that. Exactly. And it's like that boastfulness actually feeds into arrogance. He says, it's not rude. Here's here's the pivotal one, it's not self seeking, you know, it's not irritable. It doesn't keep records of wrong. Love finds no joy in unrighteousness, but it rejoices in truth. And then it bears all things, it believes all things, it hopes all things. And again, Paul starts the list with patience, and he ends it with patience. It endures all things. And I just think that's a helpful maybe diagnostic to be able to evaluate. Lysa TerKeurst: That's so good. And like we hinted at before, if you're being love bombed and then the other person has expectations of what you are now gonna do for them and you don't do that. Like, it didn't work. They didn't get you to do what they wanted you to do. The love bombing can turn into hate bombing. You know? And that's where I wanna now kind of now that we've acknowledged that, then step into the gaslighting because that was also part of the cycle. During the the famine times, gaslighting would often happen because I would start questioning, why are we now back in this place? You know? And then I would have suspicions or I would have questions. But when I would ask, like, what's going on? Why have things now dramatically taken, you know, a bad turn, or we're back to this craziness that I thought we were healed from, I thought we'd moved on from? Then it was flipped back on me, and I was told I'm the crazy one. I'm the problem. Why are you now destroying our relationship? Because you keep having these suspicions. You keep having these questions. You know? What's your problem? And that's where we get into the gaslighting. Jim Cress: Yeah. And, as a bridge across may I when you're talking about love bombing, which leads to hate bombing, spoken eloquently, and you talk about gaslighting, you just shared, it ties right in, and that is lovey dovey, lovey dovey. This is agape love. This is great love of 1 Corinthians 13. This reality of gaslighting and love bombing, trust me, developmentally is very young in a person. I mean, it's one of my key themes. I'm going, I have a sign in my office is how old would you be if you didn't know how old you are? So would you mind you just eloquently read as a segue, 1 Corinthians 13. Think about unhealthy, infantile or adolescent behavior in this. Would you happen to read verse 11, please? Joel Muddamalle: Yeah. 1 Corinthians 13:11. It says, when I was a child, I spoke like a child. I thought like a child. I reasoned like a child. But when I became a man, I put aside childish things. Jim Cress: So all that stuff that I do that really I believe teach that no therapist -- Lysa TerKeurst: That's so fascinating. It comes right in the word. Jim Cress: Yeah. I've married people as a pastor, have that, and I say, please, even though there's a context coming up behind that, please put verse 11. And so if you want to love well and you are love bombing or you are narcissistic or whatever words we're gonna continue to use or certainly if you're gaslighting, that's very young in a person because little kids can say lie or say, you made me do it. It's a classic one. See what you made me do? I mean, gaslighting goes real early in a person. So we're gonna wanna define what it is at one level? Simply like you said before, not so much a definition, but a a description. Gaslighting is when I say you and I are raised up. I know the truth. You know the truth. We we both know what the heck's happened here. We know that. But then I try to get you in what I call that emotional vertigo and try to make you think you crazy or may even call you that when we both know exactly what I've been doing. The goal is not just lying. You know, my log I use, I either lie right at you and lie. Oh, is omitting. You didn't ask that. That's very young. I ain't gonna tell you, son, did you eat the cookie, the chocolate chip cookie? No, but I ate the Twinkie that was over here or ate some candy. You didn't ask me that mom starts very young, lie, omitting or gaslighting. The gaslighting is we both know the truth, but my goal is to make you feel crazy where you're kind of spinning and sadly, you know what? It works. Lysa TerKeurst: So that you doubt your own, like, for me, it's like I was suspicious, but now every time I feel suspicious, I stop and ask me, instead of focusing on what are they doing that's making me suspicious, I would then stop and go, oh, no. I'm suspicious. That probably means he's right. I'm crazy. I'm crazy. I'm the crazy one. I'm seeing things that I shouldn't see. I'm, you know, I'm perceiving things that really aren't real. And then that also starts to wear you down to the point you don't want to invite other people in. And you kind of get locked into this, this feeling of craziness. And what I feared is if I brought someone else in to ask them, am I like, could my suspicions possibly be true that I would be proven wrong and in being proven wrong, that my suspicions weren't true, then that would automatically mean I'm the crazy person. Jim Cress: And you know that happens. And sadly, honestly, that happens with people who are in the caregiving roles, whether they're pastors. It happens a lot with therapists. And sometimes because the therapist hasn't done their own work and they go, well, is it biblical? Or maybe you just need to submit or maybe not. Maybe it looks like this. It walks like a duck. It quacks like a duck. It means everything, but it might not be a duck. That's crazy. Isn't it? I mean, it's like but sometimes even some therapists have done that. Lysa TerKeurst: Yeah. And I think gaslighting came from an old movie. Right? There's two different movies. Alfred Hitchcock has one. Yeah. Lysa TerKeurst: Yeah. Where, I don't know. I can't remember. Is it that the – Jim Cress: The woman would set the gaslamps go out and turn them on, Lysa TerKeurst: Turn all the gas lamps on. Knew they were on. Jim Cress: And he would begin to I use the dimmer switch in my office with clients. Or if we did it here, you know, it'd ruin the the video shoot. But if you begin to dim the lights, so it's not not always sometimes that gas lighting more of a dimmer. Otherwise, you just go and go click and turn the light off. She knew and people do that today. Did honey, did I have to leave the porch light on? We always do every night. I I know I did. She knew she turned it on. The guy came behind her and said, you didn't turn those lights on. So the gas lamps or the gas lights, that is the gas lighting. He knew exactly that he was manipulating her, and she began to go, maybe I didn't. And then the crazy game's on. Lysa TerKeurst: And then and what is he hoping to do in turning those lanterns off and her saying, I know I turned them on, but they're off. So did I turn them on? Jim Cress: Get her dysregulated. Again, what I call emotional or relational vertigo. Because if you start spinning if I'm an addict and Jim Cress is a recovering addict, so I can relate to it, if I see you spinning and maybe crazy, you're gonna dial back possibly saying, well, I saw this sign or I saw something else. You're gonna begin to back away and not hold me accountable because you're gonna think you crazy up in there and now that I'm crazy. Lysa TerKeurst: Okay. Jim Cress: Very functional. Lysa TerKeurst: So good. And it doesn't just happen with addicts. It can happen with anyone who is trying to kinda get you off the scent of whatever it is. Jim Cress: Little kids do it. They don't know the term gaslighting, but they're doing they know the truth. You're looking around at them with chocolate all over their mouth and little Jack Jack, my grandson. We've got a video of it. And Lauren, my daughter-in-law was like, who who got into the cookies? And then my they go down the line, my three grandsons, and gets to Jack Jack. And he says, not me. And he says, loaded with chocolate. So he knows completely well. So this office is why I say, had you read that verse, this is very young developmentally. Why it's important to grow up and put away childish things. Very true. Lysa TerKeurst: So what do we do about it? So if we're in a situation where we are either being love bombed or there's gaslighting happening, like, are there some strategies? Are there some practices? Like, what do we need to do if we're caught in a situation where this is happening? Jim Cress: Well, again, I'm gonna go back to mental health. I've added spiritual health from Scott Peck, the author. Mental health is a commitment to reality at all cost. I am convinced that people tune tune off the last part of the verse of that statement, and that is at all cost. So I want to get unilaterally if you want a practical thing. I want you and I know for a fact you did this with my buddy, with Joel, Others, you did this with me. And that is you get your safe people, even if it's one or two and say, yeah. I trust you. This is what's going on. Do you think I'm crazy? Mirror back. What do you so often that works with the safe person at times like a therapist to come in. And I said to you, you know, one of the things you've said about my work with you, which has been just the the joy of a lifetime. And I thought, wow. I mean, I've tried to really work hard for you and and that's what you say. The best thing Jim ever did to help me was to say, I believe you. And and I'm not I'm being a little facetious, but I went, no. I've realized that is the core because in gaslighting, emotional dysregulation, I'll question myself. So when someone says, look, my hub, I hear you. You, I understand you. And b, I believe you. That's the starting point. Who in your life do you have two or three good friends who you can go in therapy helps at times because it's confidential. And you say, I wanna tell you what's going on and let another wise person say, you did it with this guy especially. And I had the privilege of being there too to go, no. This is what we hear. Joel Muddamalle: Can you gaslight like yourself? Jim Cress: The research would say no because notice and here's why. Because early in Therapy and Theology, I I used that term and I realized it was wrong. You get to change because gaslighting has to have the issue that I know the truth. And, like, you know the truth. So let's say I know the truth, but I'm here to overtly deceive myself. What you can do is be in denial. This is the second one that is very prominent. I think way more than denial is rationalization that's in the therapy field that I will rationalize of, well, maybe I'm dysregulated. Maybe he's right, But I don't have the intention in true gaslighting to lie to myself knowing I'm lying and deceive myself. That make sense? Lysa TerKeurst: Absolutely. Absolutely. And I think the reason it was so important when we would do our sessions and you would say, I believe you Yeah. Is because sometimes the narrative around a situation that happened would his narrative would be so vastly different than my narrative. And then I was like, wow. Maybe I am making too big of a deal. Maybe maybe it really wasn't as I remembered it. And so it was so helpful and so regulating for me to come in. And certainly, you were listening to places where maybe I was taking the narrative in a wrong direction because I'm not saying that my narrative was always right. But what I am saying is the consistency. You've said this before, Lysa. This is pretty consistent with that, and this is consistent with that. Like, Lysa, I I believe you. Even if you don't get every detail right, I believe that what you are upset about, you should legitimately be upset about. And that just helped me so much. It helped me stop doubting that, you know, that that I was really the one at fault with everything. Jim Cress: To go back to the triangle, you say, oh, that's another program we know, but the big triangle at that moment, and you know this well and so does Joel, I was not rescuing you. I was simply with you and holding up a mirror to say, we know that James tells us God's word is the mirror. And I was holding it up and saying, here's what I see, and we built trust and safety versus me just being someone cutting your hair at the grocery store to say, okay. I'm gonna I'm gonna show you back and remind you, and we know that God's word does that. Remember zakar in Hebrew. Remember. Remember. And it's like, I was saying, hey. This is what I've witnessed. We all need a fair witness to our stories, our lives. And so I had a chance to witness and go, I see it. I believe it. Lysa TerKeurst: And so I do love that you often remind people, don't go at this alone. It's terrible. You know, don't don't try to work out everything on your own. You don't need to tell everyone, but find a few safe people to gather around and give them permission. Tell me what you see. Like when I present this situation, help me see what I possibly can't see on my own. Jim Cress: Which can be our, well, you know, I call it the personal board of directors. I don't care if you only have two seats out. I try to get four seats, but these are trusted people who've earned the right to sit at your table. So develop a personal board of directors and say, you know me. We have some history. You've seen my ups, my downs, my highs, my lows. What do you hear me struggling with? Lysa TerKeurst: And what we're really after is truth. Like with love bombing, like, it's so hard to discern what is true, what is not true. We have gaslighting. It's so hard to discern what is true, what is not true. But once we have people that we trust and love and that have our best interest in mind, both to say the hard things and the good things, but once we start establishing what the truth is, the truth is a great starting point to then start to make progress toward healing or start to make progress toward help. You know, start to make progress in a positive direction. And that's what we want. We just don't want to stay in this dysfunctional dance that eventually creates so much emotional exhaustion that it starts to lead to spiritual confusion about everything in our life. Joel Muddamalle: Yeah. I think that there's a part of me that just wonders. It's like, okay. What do we do with this? There's a part of me that just wonders, did Moses experience a lot of gaslighting from the people of Israel? Like, I just think about, like, how many times the Israelites come to Moses throughout the Exodus period, and they're just like, why'd you bring us out here to die? We had meat and fish and food and all kinds of great you know? And Moses is like, wait a minute. Like, weren't y'all, like, indent like, heavy labor slaves? Like, I don't know about you, but, like, and Moses Lysa TerKeurst: --extremely unfair condition. Joel Muddamalle: Yeah. And I'm like, I don't know about y'all. Maybe I did because I grew up in the royal house, but, like, you guys? I don't I don't think so. You know? And so there's even the sense there. It's like, well, what how does Moses respond to that? And, I think he gives us, in the book of Deuteronomy the most, important thing that we ought to do, for sure in the context of the biblical narrative and the biblical story, but I think it's a principle that we can apply to this conversation of, gaslighting and love bombing. But, it's called the Shema of Deuteronomy 6. And in verse four, Moses says, listen, Israel. The Lord our God, Lord is one. Love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength. So it's like the whole of your the human body. These words that I'm giving you today are to be in your heart. Right? So there this is where they reside. They reside in your heart. Now we know the Hebrew word shuv, it has in mind both, the wellspring of emotion and intellectual volition. So today, we think of heart as, this place of, like, affection and emotional, but, reality. But for the Israelites, they're thinking about this both and, not either or. It's like the heart and mind, it it resides there and says this, repeat these things to your children. When I am retelling a story, two things are happening. One is, I'm remembering that story because I have to recall it. Second, as I say it, I'm actually reenacting that story. You know? So there's this, like, multiplicity to this. Repeat them to your children. Talk about them when you sit in your house, when you walk along the road, when you lie down, and when you get up. And I love this language. Bind them as a sign on your hand and let them be a symbol on your forehead. Write them on the doorpost of your house and on your city gate. And I just wonder what would happen if we take the same principle that we should be doing in terms of the story of God and his love for us, and then we go back to these moments of gaslighting and love bombing. Go, wait. You know what? I need to have some people in my life that I can rehearse the the truth with. Right? Like, I I kinda I kinda just like, hey, guys. I'm gonna tell the truth. I'm gonna say the truth as I understand it. Now you keep me accountable to this. Is this actually true? Is this, an accurate retelling of that story? And if so, now we're held with the responsibility to do with the truth as it demands of our lives. Right? And so if we don't make a change, then we're held accountable for that. But it starts with rehearsing the truth and communicating it and remembering it. Lysa TerKeurst: And I love that, Joel, because we've said before, and you've said it already on this series, is reality is crucial. Joel Muddamalle: Yes. Totally. Lysa TerKeurst: And so mental health is a commitment to what is real, what is reality. And to bring this all together in some situations that I've faced in the past, love bombing and gaslighting, they're they're right there together. They're operating together. And what would sometimes start happening is the love bombing would make me start to develop this narrative about how awesome this person is, how incredible they are. The gaslighting was secretly making me feel like I am not awesome. I am not incredible. Like, there's a whole lot that's wrong with me. So then the narrative sometimes when I would speak publicly about it is I would diminish myself. I would elevate this other person. And almost I was working against myself because I was convincing other people, like, how awesome they were and how I really couldn't be trusted, which was the exact opposite. So when I got into a situation where, Jim, you could see through some of the emotional dysfunction and emotional warfare that really I was in. And Joel, through the biblical lens of truth, you know, you would ask me wise questions, but also you guys had experiences with me that allowed me to remember I'm not terrible, awful, crazy. Right? That actually, in every other area of my life, like, I'm not-- I'm pretty sane. Joel Muddamalle: That's a big one because then it's like, wait a minute. Now you're held with the responsibility of truth because now we're talking about incongruency. One of those things has to be true. One of them can't be true. And if you've got the weight of witness on all these people are saying this is true, and yet there's this one situation over here. It might be an important situation. It might be a very important relationship, but you have to deal honestly with the weight of the evidence that's there. And I think that's where you were at. You're like, oh, wait a minute. Hold on. Lysa TerKeurst: That's right. Joel Muddamalle: I gotta reevaluate. Jim Cress: What we were doing, by the way okay. This there was the venom that was put into you. Right? Can I use that? Gaslighting and say love bombing, but let's stay with gaslighting. So I want you to see as a snake bite, which echoes Eden, although there wasn't a bite, but there was talking. So the venom went on. Joel and I and many others were the anti venom. We were coming along, and we weren't telling you, I believe, not much new things. We were reminding you the Jewish thing from the Shemon, Deuteronomy 6. We were simply reminding you, hey. Let's hold up a mirror. Let me remind you this is who you really are. We see your truth. So that idea was not giving you all this new information. Sure. There were some, but we were reminding you this is what's really true that we've seen and know about you. Joel Muddamalle: No. I already know Lysa, and I know in her mind she's thinking, oh, no. People are gonna think that I'm older than now and all this other stuff. And so let me just say very clearly. There were hard conversations. Lysa TerKeurst: Absolutely. Joel Muddamalle: There was theology that I know that I challenged you with. There was therapeutic things that Jim you know? And but the point is, like, you dealt with it. You considered it. You evaluated it on its own terms. And so I just wanted to bring that because I know – Lysa TerKeurst: Thank you, Joel. I always do think that because I just wanna be careful. This isn't I'm not a picture of perfection by any means. But, also, I do wanna just challenge you with this one last thought. When someone has proven to you that they don't have your best interest in mind over a long period of time, when someone has consistently lied to you, why why then do you allow that person to be the loudest voice of truth in your life? Joel Muddamalle: You might need to say that again. Say it again. Lysa TerKeurst: So when someone has proven over a long stretch of time, they don't have your best interest in mind, and they've lied to you over and over, why then would we put them in the position to be the loudest voice of truth in our life? Again, we're not telling you what to think. We're just giving you a lot to think about. And so if some of today's episode really resonates with you, please know we are praying for you. We hope this information helps you be empowered to then take it and do something with it. Again, not to start accusing other people in your life or labeling other people, but use it as a reality check because mental health is a commitment to reality at all costs. Thank you for joining us with this episode of Therapy and Theology. Shae Hill: Lysa, Jim, and Joel, thank you so much for today's conversation. Friend, after listening, there's a lot you can do with what you heard today. First, I would encourage you to share this episode with a friend who needs to hear it. Send them the link to listen, then maybe go grab coffee and talk it over together. Or like I mentioned at the beginning of this episode, you might find yourself in a really difficult place of feeling distant from God, questioning if his plans for you are really good, or maybe something else. If that's you, I want you to know that we deeply understand, but we also want to help. That's why I wanna remind you about Lysa TerKeurst’s free resource titled, “Trust is a Track Record, Five Scriptural Truths to Remember God's Faithfulness.” Download it today using the link in our show notes. That's all for today, friends. Thank you so much for tuning in to Therapy and Theology. Therapy and Theology is brought to you by Proverbs 31 Ministries, where we believe if you know the truth and live the truth, it changes everything.