Latest / True Crime with Gavin Fish / What Really Happened to Kada Scott with Forensic Expert Joseph Scott Morgan

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What Really Happened to Kada Scott with Forensic Expert Joseph Scott Morgan · True Crime with Gavin Fish

• 0:04
  Earlier this month, a young woman, a pretty recent graduate
• 0:07
  of Penn State University, disappeared from her workplace
• 0:13
  after showing up for her late night shift.
• 0:17
  Someone saw her go into what they described was a dark SUV,
• 0:21
  and that was the last time that she was seen.
• 0:24
  Of course, we're talking about Kata Scott tonight.
• 0:28
  We're going to welcome Joseph Scott Morgan to talk about the
• 0:32
  forensic side of this case that maybe you and I have questions
• 0:36
  about. Stick with me.
• 0:50
  This video contains mature themes and discussions intended
• 0:53
  only for adult audiences. Viewer discretion is advised.
• 0:59
  Hello there, my friend, and welcome back to the show for
• 1:02
  another true crime conversation with me.
• 1:04
  My name is Gavin Fish. Right next to me virtually is my
• 1:10
  friend Joseph Scott Morgan. Joseph, thank you for being
• 1:12
  here. My pleasure.
• 1:15
  You always bend over backwards to hang out with me and I really
• 1:17
  appreciate it. Oh man, you're my brother from
• 1:21
  another mother. I love hanging out with you
• 1:22
  guys. It's a lot of fun.
• 1:24
  It's relaxed compared to a lot of stuff that I have to do and
• 1:28
  we can just have a conversation. That's if, if I could ever have
• 1:33
  like control, total control over, you know, and I love my
• 1:37
  podcast that I do, but if I could ever do something, I would
• 1:40
  just want something where I had a cup of coffee in front of me
• 1:43
  and just having a convo with folks, you know?
• 1:45
  And that's that, that's the beauty of it.
• 1:48
  I I enjoy and I love the style. So yeah.
• 1:50
  And I don't get to do this as much as I would like to.
• 1:53
  Well, speaking your podcast, I was just listening to the
• 1:55
  episode from a couple of days ago on Kay to Scott with your
• 1:59
  it. That's Dave Mack, your Co host,
• 2:01
  right? Yeah, yeah, Dave.
• 2:02
  You guys have a very cool conversational style.
• 2:06
  We do. And you know, Dave, Dave's the
• 2:08
  real pro. You know, because he's been This
• 2:11
  man has actually been in radio since he was 14.
• 2:15
  Oh yeah. Just let that sink in.
• 2:17
  And he's my age. He's forgotten more than I will
• 2:20
  ever learn, particularly at this stage in life.
• 2:24
  And he's got one of those perfect radio voices, too.
• 2:30
  Yeah, he does. He's got that.
• 2:32
  There's not too much of that. You know that Fry, you know that
• 2:37
  you have in the voice, you know he's just.
• 2:38
  Say, or the the vocal vomit of the guys that do the
• 2:41
  commercials. Like he doesn't do that right?
• 2:43
  Yeah, I know. And I'll tease him about that.
• 2:45
  You know, I'll say things like, hey, I'm Johnny Midnight and I'm
• 2:48
  spinning records until 3:00 in the morning or whatever, and
• 2:51
  he'll laugh about that and he can do all that stuff, you know?
• 2:54
  But you know, where his expertise comes in is his I
• 3:00
  guess they in Tom's past, they would refer to it as
• 3:03
  engineering. But he's he's a heck of a
• 3:06
  producer, you know, and he's just he's great at what he does.
• 3:10
  We do 3 episodes per week and that's a live because he's one
• 3:13
  of the primary producers for Nancy Grace.
• 3:15
  And so that in and of itself is full time gig for anybody
• 3:20
  because that's that it that show is high volume.
• 3:23
  It's labor intensive because you're cutting in video.
• 3:27
  And now it's part of the Fox One family.
• 3:29
  So he's right in the heart of that every single day, this man,
• 3:33
  he never stops. I mean, it is rare that he
• 3:35
  stops. So yeah, I bow to his greatness.
• 3:40
  He's he's a wonderful, wonderful cat.
• 3:42
  And I'm privileged to call him my friend.
• 3:44
  Well, you guys, you guys have a cool back and forth.
• 3:47
  Your, your voices complement each other really well out here.
• 3:50
  Your, your expertise obviously does too.
• 3:53
  It's, it's, it's a good listen. So check out body bags, guys.
• 3:58
  Let's see. I found it on iheart.
• 4:00
  Let me, let me bring it up Rotch here, right.
• 4:03
  It's on. It's an iheart podcast.
• 4:05
  And yeah, the the name of the episode is Smelly dirt and
• 4:10
  maggots and shallow grave, which leads us into I mean, the
• 4:15
  conversation that I wanted to have with you that this crime.
• 4:18
  Kada Scott. Let me bring up her photo here.
• 4:22
  Kita is a young woman, pretty recently graduated from Penn
• 4:28
  State. I think she graduated in 2023 is
• 4:29
  what I understand. But you know, she's working the
• 4:35
  the graveyard shift at a an assisted living center.
• 4:40
  She's recently gotten into beauty pageants.
• 4:44
  Fact. One of the questions that people
• 4:46
  often ask me is why do some cases get into the public
• 4:52
  zeitgeist and some don't? And it's actually not all that
• 4:57
  common. Gwen Ifill, I think, called it
• 5:00
  middle class white woman syndrome, right?
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  Like Cata doesn't fit the mold that I think most editorial
• 5:09
  Staffs are used to covering. But for some reason she, she
• 5:16
  broke into the zeitgeist and I'm glad that she did because I
• 5:19
  think that attention on a case does push the authorities to
• 5:25
  maybe push a little bit harder. And I and I think they did a
• 5:27
  great job anyway. Yeah, I, I think, I think you're
• 5:30
  right. But I, I would take exception to
• 5:33
  that on one point. I think that that those
• 5:37
  individuals, and I'm not diminishing the victims in any
• 5:40
  way, but I'm saying I'm merely kind of saying what I know about
• 5:46
  the media. If someone is young, beautiful
• 5:49
  and attractive, it has nothing to do with race.
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  When you can throw images up that we've seen a lot of her,
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  you know, in her Penn State uni and we've seen her certainly,
• 6:01
  you know, in pageant, pageant competition.
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  And she's got a compelling story.
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  Yeah. That's, you know, and that's,
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  that's what you know, that's that's what any producer that's
• 6:16
  out there. And it doesn't matter what your
• 6:18
  view of any particular network is.
• 6:20
  That's what they're looking for. I think a lot of people labor
• 6:24
  under this idea that the people that you see were laying the
• 6:29
  information to you on the screen.
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  You know, when you're staring at a television show or whatever,
• 6:37
  that's not who's, you know, cultivating all of this.
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  It's the producers that are backstage, the button pushers,
• 6:44
  the people that are talking into their ears, you know, that sort
• 6:47
  of thing. And I think a lot of talking
• 6:49
  heads and they hate that term, but they're they're just kind of
• 6:53
  a kind of a speaker. You know, it's blasting out
• 6:56
  information that's actually coming from a control room.
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  They prepared the scripts, they have all the data points that
• 7:02
  they're looking for and they're saying, you know, what's going
• 7:04
  to resonate with with our audience.
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  And so, yeah, there is a problem.
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  And I've talked about this with Jonbenet for years now.
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  As a matter of fact, I, I really stay away from the Jonbenet case
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  because I had, you know, during the course of my career in
• 7:22
  Atlanta and and New Orleans, I had a, a lot of young girls that
• 7:28
  were killed, went missing. You know, their cases were never
• 7:32
  solved or there wasn't as much urgency about it.
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  And cases go cold. And, you know, the last I
• 7:41
  checked, there were like, I don't know, something like 26
• 7:44
  books or something. And I'm sure that numbers
• 7:47
  increased about the Jonbenet case.
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  And, you know, they start throwing around terms like, you
• 7:53
  know, America's sweetheart. And, you know, she really
• 7:56
  captured the soul of America. It's like, no, no.
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  I mean, I've, I've sat in rooms with parents that are weeping.
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  You know. And trying to comfort them, you
• 8:08
  know, and their, their tears are just as salty as the as Ramsey's
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  tears. Trust me.
• 8:13
  Sure, no, that I, I think that just I don't know on a the
• 8:21
  lizard part of our brain, like the the beast of of our brain,
• 8:26
  we value beauty, we value attractiveness.
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  And, you know, the Jon Benet Ramsey case has bothered me for
• 8:33
  a long time just because she was so young and a beauty queen and
• 8:38
  the, and the, and the nation lapped it up and, and I just
• 8:43
  thought it was so inappropriate, man.
• 8:46
  Well, it is and. Yeah.
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  And you know, and I think the thing, you know, that caught
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  everybody's, I mean, let's face it, it was salacious, you know,
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  when you started seeing these images and we don't like to talk
• 8:57
  about that, but it it really was salacious, you know, and you're
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  and immediately I'm remembering back all those years and I
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  wasn't I was working in the field as practitioners.
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  Matter of fact, this is an interesting little bit of
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  trivia. I was working in Atlanta with, I
• 9:14
  was still with the ME in Atlanta the night that Patsy died.
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  And she died in the Atlanta area.
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  And I was actually on duty, you know, and she was in Hospice at
• 9:25
  that point. And you would not believe the
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  phone calls that I got from news agencies all over the country
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  because they thought that, you know, we had something to do
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  with it. And you know most well, if
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  you're on Hospice, those cases by law are not reportable to the
• 9:43
  coroner of the medical examiner. So we, we have no awareness of
• 9:47
  when a Hospice patient dies, for instance, at least in the
• 9:51
  jurisdictions I've worked in. It might be different elsewhere,
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  but in our jurisdictions it's like, and sometimes that that
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  used to apply to nursing homes, but now the situation that many
• 10:02
  nursing homes is so bad there, there have been people that have
• 10:05
  gone back and said, no, anybody that dies in a nursing home
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  needs to be reported to the Emmy or the coroner 'cause we got to
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  check and see if there's neglect, abuse, all those sorts
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  of things. And I think a lot of people
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  would really be surprised, really be surprised at how much
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  nefarious activity goes, goes on with that.
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  Yeah, it breaks my heart. I love to age it because I'm
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  approaching that, that time period and I, you know, and I,
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  you know, my grandparents held a very honored place in my life.
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  And I just hate, you know, I just hate it.
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  I hate it when it's like little kids, you know, and they're,
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  they're at the mercy. So anyway, I I don't mean to
• 10:48
  chase rabbits here, but you get me started talking.
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  About this stuff well, in in this case, I think Kada's family
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  successfully leveraged the media and she was she was a beautiful
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  young woman. She was a woman with bright
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  prospects. She was college educated, but
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  you're right, they had photography of her and they had
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  her they went to social media and you know, and that and that
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  captured our attention. I think that's a good thing.
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  Now I want to, I want to kind of dive into the, to the
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  traditional forensic side of this because I think a lot of
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  this case was solved through digital forensics according to
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  what we learned from the probable cause affidavit.
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  And unfortunately for a lot of us chasing, chasing information,
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  this is Pennsylvania. We're not going to get
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  information in Pennsylvania like we would in Florida or Idaho or
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  Arizona or a lot of other states that are that are way more open.
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  We pretty much have all we're going to get until a trial if
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  there is one, right. But so they used a lot of
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  digital forensics to get to get to narrowing down basically the
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  the camera feed over at the at the Community Center, right or
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  is the high school. Well, yeah, they've got the new
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  school and then there's an there's there's all these other
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  adjacent structures that are around there too, and we can go
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  into this, but yeah, I mean, yeah, there's there there are
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  digital bread, bread crumbs throughout the singing.
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  They're still there's still a lot that hasn't been revealed to
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  this point and they're not going to reveal it.
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  You know, you got somebody that's that's now been charged
• 12:40
  in this case and they're not going to show their hand.
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  You know, and I the tempo that we run out.
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  I think the the the public gets very frustrated very quickly
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  about the lack of of information.
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  And I know it sound like, you know, a broken record, you know,
• 12:57
  talking about this, but that's that's part of it.
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  You know, we because the singing has got to be adjudicated.
• 13:03
  It's got to make it through the courts.
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  And you know, we have sports analogy here.
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  If you're on a football team, you're not going to take your
• 13:11
  playbook over to the to the opposing team and say here,
• 13:14
  here's what we're going to be doing.
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  And if you look at it that way, that kind of explains a lot
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  because you don't want anybody to wiggle off the hook
• 13:23
  particularly well. You don't want anybody that is
• 13:28
  rightly, you know, rightly charged to wiggle off the hook.
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  And you want to make sure that you, you know, dotted all your
• 13:37
  IS and crossed your T's so that that's, you know, and that's
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  what happens. And that's kind of status that
• 13:43
  we're in right now. Yeah, and this is my home state.
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  For those of you who don't know, I live in Western Pennsylvania,
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  so I'm I'm on the other side of the Commonwealth from from
• 13:52
  Philadelphia. The way that it works here is he
• 13:56
  has a preliminary hearing that is scheduled I think for
• 13:59
  November 10th. Now he could waive it.
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  He has the right to waive his preliminary hearing.
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  Typically speaking, you do get a little information at the
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  preliminary hearing. The issue, though, is that in
• 14:12
  Pennsylvania, you can't bring digital anything into any
• 14:16
  courtroom. You can't.
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  You can't record, you can't broadcast, you can't do
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  anything. All you can do as a reporter is
• 14:23
  take your little pen and pad and go in there and take notes as
• 14:26
  fast as you can. Yeah, they're going to.
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  And trust me, I do know this. They're they're going to be
• 14:35
  there's going to be such a a media pool for this and there's
• 14:38
  going to be people jockeying for position.
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  I, I saw this a lot during my coverage of and working, you
• 14:48
  know, kind of painting the story relative to the Piketon massacre
• 14:52
  down in Ohio. By the way, there's still one
• 14:53
  case in that in that series of homicides.
• 14:57
  It still is yet to be adjudicated.
• 15:00
  And they it was really weird. And this is for the trial.
• 15:04
  So it's not necessarily the same thing.
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  But there were certain times that they would allow cameras in
• 15:09
  the court. And there were other times where
• 15:11
  the people that were testified, including defendants could wave,
• 15:15
  could say, no, I don't want a court.
• 15:17
  I don't I don't want a camera in the court is really kind of an
• 15:19
  odd thing. So you have to, you're dependent
• 15:21
  upon the pool reporter. This happened.
• 15:25
  We'll see. Where else did this happen?
• 15:28
  Well, it happens every day in federal court.
• 15:30
  Yeah. You don't have cameras in the
• 15:32
  federal court. And they're there.
• 15:34
  There are many, you know, many cases like this where you're
• 15:37
  reliant. And hopefully, hopefully, you
• 15:41
  know, those people that are picked to be the representative
• 15:44
  of the media, you know, they come out and they they just
• 15:48
  state the facts. They take copious notes and
• 15:51
  we'll get data at that point in time.
• 15:52
  But right you are Gavin. You know, there, there will be,
• 15:57
  you know, a bit of data that's going to come out of that.
• 16:00
  Now, just so viewers know, I am in touch with the AOPC, which is
• 16:05
  the administrative office of Judy.
• 16:08
  I can't remember what it is. It's the office that overseas
• 16:11
  all that stuff in the Commonwealth and I have, I have
• 16:15
  told. Like the clerk of court.
• 16:17
  Yeah, yeah. And I've just told them that I
• 16:19
  would like to, I would like to have credentials to go.
• 16:22
  The likelihood, the likelihood is really low because you're
• 16:25
  right, there will be a lot of people that are jockeying for
• 16:28
  that. And so if I do get my
• 16:32
  credentials, I'll drive down there and I'll go for the
• 16:34
  preliminary hearing. If not, I will just depend on
• 16:38
  like you said, the reporters that are in there and, and see
• 16:42
  what see what they said. OK, let's get into the the
• 16:45
  forensic side of this because it appears to me anyway that well,
• 16:52
  and it appears to police too. They have said this, I think
• 16:57
  District Attorney Krasner said it, that they believe, and it's
• 17:00
  in the PCA, they believe that that Kada was killed on the 4th
• 17:07
  pretty much within a few hours of when she was kidnapped.
• 17:13
  Her body wasn't found until the 18th.
• 17:16
  Now there's a couple interesting things that I'd love your take
• 17:20
  on #1 is there were there was a tip.
• 17:24
  Actually, these are related numbers 1 and 2 Are there?
• 17:28
  There was a tip that her body was in was on that property
• 17:33
  right on the on the middle school property.
• 17:35
  They go there, they can't find anything.
• 17:38
  Then another tip comes in. That kind of sounds to me like,
• 17:42
  oh, you did not look in the right place.
• 17:44
  Here is the place to go. I am curious what that means to
• 17:49
  you knowing that little little bit of information that the DA
• 17:54
  is released. That says to me the word
• 17:58
  intimate comes up intimate knowledge.
• 18:01
  And so I think that there's, at least to my way of thinking,
• 18:06
  first blush, we'll say that is that there's going to be
• 18:09
  connectivity to whoever this is. And the accused.
• 18:14
  And I don't know if he's, you know, run his mouth about
• 18:18
  something perhaps and was bragging or, you know, has had a
• 18:26
  decompensation at some point in time, you know, where he, he
• 18:29
  realized what he had done. And he's, you know, he's wanting
• 18:33
  to unburden himself, if you will.
• 18:36
  And somebody has chosen to remain anonymous.
• 18:39
  I that, you know, when Dave and I were, were covering Kate's
• 18:43
  case few days ago and we, we taped that episode and we just
• 18:46
  did the forensics, you know, I just talked about and you listen
• 18:49
  to it. So that was something that, you
• 18:53
  know, kind of drove, drove my interest because I, I think that
• 18:58
  like so many cases now this thing is going to rise and fall
• 19:02
  with, with digital info, It's going to rise and fall with
• 19:06
  phone calls. I'd like to know the platform in
• 19:10
  which a tip, a tip is received and try to understand that, see
• 19:14
  if there's any kind of connectivity electronically, you
• 19:18
  know, with that point of origin. When did somebody respond to
• 19:22
  this? You know, how did they respond?
• 19:24
  And I'm talking about the, the law enforcement officials,
• 19:27
  because they did, if I remember correctly, they did an initial
• 19:32
  pass through and then they had to go back out And they've been
• 19:35
  searching, you know, and look, I mean, tip of the cap to them,
• 19:38
  they, they stayed on the trail, if you will, and really pushed,
• 19:43
  push, push, push. But the entire time mom and
• 19:47
  daddy are pushing too. They really put their shoulder
• 19:50
  to the stone. And can you, Can you imagine
• 19:53
  your child? Right is.
• 19:55
  Missing. Yeah.
• 19:57
  And I, I all of us kind of sit back and we think, well, what in
• 19:59
  the world would I do, you know, if it was my baby that was
• 20:04
  missing? And they just, you know, set
• 20:08
  their faces like Flint and Sally forth into the maelstrom.
• 20:11
  And they were going to find her, you know, they were going to do
• 20:14
  anything that they could in order to, you know, to find
• 20:18
  their their child. And, you know, and I think that
• 20:21
  it paid off. However, you know, I'm really
• 20:25
  interested in this individual's activities beforehand.
• 20:30
  I got to tell you that at one point in time I was, you know, I
• 20:35
  was, I was thinking, you know, are there because there's
• 20:38
  several vehicles that are involved in this as well.
• 20:41
  And that's very confusing just from a logistics standpoint.
• 20:46
  How do you move these vehicles around, Reposition them?
• 20:50
  The burning of the vehicle, which again, is mind boggling.
• 20:53
  The thing was compacted so quickly, which is an absolute
• 20:57
  nightmare from a forensic standpoint.
• 21:00
  Well, let me ask about that real quick.
• 21:02
  Let's get let's talk about that car.
• 21:04
  So I don't it's Philadelphia. Philadelphia I have problems
• 21:11
  with anyway, but. Yeah, no kidding.
• 21:15
  Yeah, We won't go down there. Yeah.
• 21:17
  The recent unpleasantness. Yeah.
• 21:19
  Yeah, but I mean, is it just so normal to have a car lit on fire
• 21:24
  that you're like, oh, well, there's another arson, Chalk it
• 21:26
  up as an arson, tow this thing and crush it.
• 21:30
  Because would there be? Would there be any?
• 21:34
  Like, because ostensibly she was murdered in that car.
• 21:38
  Yeah, there, there's a good chance of it.
• 21:39
  And I, I got to tell you, I don't mean to make light of
• 21:42
  this, but it was when I heard this, you know what popped into
• 21:45
  my mind? The scene from The Big Lebowski,
• 21:48
  you know, where Jeff Bridges character, they find his car in
• 21:52
  the impound lot and, you know, things are stolen out of it and
• 21:56
  everything. He's talking to the cop that's
• 21:57
  in charge of the impound lot, and he says, well, do you guys
• 22:00
  have any leads? You know, And he, you know, the
• 22:03
  cop looks at him and starts laughing and says, yeah, Leeds.
• 22:05
  We got a whole team. They're working double shifts to
• 22:08
  work on this car, you know. And so that's in a place like
• 22:12
  Philly that's so densely populated and you've got so many
• 22:17
  abandoned vehicles. It's nothing to come across, you
• 22:20
  know, a fully engulfed vehicle, you know, that's, that's, that's
• 22:23
  not outside the norm. That's another Tuesday.
• 22:26
  Yeah, it happened in Atlanta. I don't recall it happening so
• 22:31
  much in New Orleans. But you if you find an open
• 22:34
  area, you know, it's kind of sequestered to a certain bit,
• 22:37
  you know, you can facilitate this.
• 22:39
  And again, you've got this is not like this is a lightning
• 22:44
  strike where it's struck the car as an act of God thing catches
• 22:49
  on fire. And cars, particularly if
• 22:52
  they're not running, generally do not catch on fire.
• 22:57
  It's not, it wouldn't be my first choice for a fuel source
• 23:00
  if I was going to roast weenies or marshmallows or something.
• 23:02
  So automatically my default position is going to be is going
• 23:08
  to be arson. And most people that set fires
• 23:13
  relative to relative to a scene don't realize most of the time
• 23:19
  when they're doing that, yeah, they're getting rid of some
• 23:22
  things, but they're creating more evidence as well, because
• 23:25
  there's markers we look for and intentionally set fires that we
• 23:29
  can examine. We can bring whole teams of
• 23:31
  people in. I mean, if we want to, we can
• 23:33
  call them ATF. And they're pretty much the best
• 23:36
  in the business when it comes to arson investigation.
• 23:40
  But so. Do you think even with that
• 23:41
  crushed car. It's going to be, it's going to
• 23:45
  be a really tough hill to climb, I think, because you literally
• 23:49
  would have to pull this thing apart.
• 23:53
  And, and I again, having not seen the car, I don't because
• 23:58
  I've seen crushed cars and then I've seen crushed cars.
• 24:01
  And it all depends the machinery that was used how, how it was
• 24:05
  facilitated and how difficult it would be.
• 24:10
  And also the will, the will of the law enforcement and the DA.
• 24:15
  If the DA wants to make it happen, they can make it happen.
• 24:18
  They can actually, they can reach out to the feds because
• 24:21
  feds have abilities that local, even Philly local and state
• 24:26
  don't have. You know, they can put a whole
• 24:28
  teams of nerds like myself on a bit of evidence like that and
• 24:32
  they can be focused on it. They'll take it back to their
• 24:34
  lab. And then when you flip the
• 24:36
  switch on the feds, it's like, so once you flip that switch,
• 24:41
  you're going to have them on the stand as well.
• 24:43
  And again, that makes for a very powerful, you know, powerful
• 24:46
  presentation because they can go into so much greater detail than
• 24:50
  you know, then not to slight locals or, or state and.
• 24:56
  I don't think it's about resources though, right?
• 24:58
  Federal government. As long as it is, it's, it's,
• 25:01
  you know, it's kind of unlimited in that, in that sense.
• 25:04
  So yeah, for me it's you know, I don't know, I and you know, I
• 25:11
  wasn't aware of that and Dave brought that up to me and
• 25:14
  immediately, you know, when we were doing like our pre show
• 25:16
  meeting for that, it's like you got you got to be kidding me,
• 25:19
  because I, I don't think in all the cases I've you hear about
• 25:23
  this. Like if you've got in the old
• 25:26
  days, you would hear about this if somebody had a salvage yard
• 25:28
  and it was like mafia connected and they can take things and,
• 25:32
  you know, compact them and literally melt them down as
• 25:34
  well. But you don't you just don't
• 25:38
  hear about this. You know, it's just, it's such
• 25:40
  an oddball kind of thing. Well, the OK, so getting back to
• 25:45
  the whole, I guess the anonymous tipster seems like it was
• 25:51
  probably the same person. I had the same reaction that you
• 25:53
  had. I kind of felt like Mr. King,
• 25:57
  Keon King is the guy who is accused of this.
• 26:00
  We should say it was an accusation, right?
• 26:02
  But if Mr. King was involved, then it seemed to me like he was
• 26:07
  either running his mouth or I think that there are at least
• 26:10
  two or three Co. Not conspirators.
• 26:13
  What am I trying to? What word am I looking for?
• 26:16
  But Co. Confederates.
• 26:20
  Yeah, yeah, yeah. So maybe one of them started
• 26:25
  talking, but I, I almost kind of feel that.
• 26:32
  I kind of feel like a lot of a lot of criminal behavior is
• 26:39
  known within, within, I guess the neighborhoods and the
• 26:43
  communities in which those criminals hang out, right, or,
• 26:47
  or live. And it's known, but but nobody
• 26:50
  is going to flap their gums when the cops come, right?
• 26:54
  And I almost feel like in this case, they may have been
• 26:58
  bragging. They may have been, you know,
• 27:00
  talk. It will do the same thing to
• 27:02
  you, you know, threatening other people but not expecting there
• 27:07
  to be such a public uproar that just got out of hand.
• 27:14
  Right. And I think that, you know, and
• 27:18
  not that he has to have more shame thrown upon him, but shame
• 27:22
  on him if he thinks that, you know, he was going to get away
• 27:25
  with it, you know, and that they're that cavalier and
• 27:30
  something particularly something that is this brutal because this
• 27:34
  is the old, you know, you don't just have the brutality of of a
• 27:38
  kidnapping here. And I think probably there's
• 27:42
  some kind of sexual element to this as.
• 27:44
  Well, I had feared that myself, yeah.
• 27:47
  Because I don't know anything about clothing status at this
• 27:50
  point. But you've also got someone that
• 27:52
  will, in my opinion at least, will desecrate a human remain.
• 27:58
  And you say, well, Morgan, there's no indication that she
• 28:02
  was, you know, there's some kind of post mortem trauma.
• 28:05
  Just the fact that you would take her and go into this ratty
• 28:09
  area back in those woods. Not that it would have been any
• 28:13
  better if she was in a federal park or something, but back in
• 28:17
  this area where there's all kinds of debris, dig a shallow
• 28:22
  grave or at least root out kind of an area that's or take make
• 28:29
  access to a depressed area in the ground and stick her in
• 28:33
  there. You know, good and damn well
• 28:36
  that her mom and daddy are looking for her, you know.
• 28:39
  And that's, you know, you talk about heaping coals on top of
• 28:42
  the parents heads along with this and then, you know, to take
• 28:47
  a board, you know, and put it over the mounded dirt.
• 28:53
  Yeah, that's desecration to me. So it's not, it's not just, it's
• 28:58
  not just the fact that she's kidnapped, the fact that she has
• 29:03
  been, I think, executed, perhaps sexually molested in some way,
• 29:09
  but it's what you do with the remains afterwards.
• 29:12
  And I, you know, when you, when you see these cases in real
• 29:15
  time, like when you're viewing things at scene, sometimes not
• 29:20
  all cases, but many times it's like a punch in the face to you
• 29:24
  because you begin to stack the stuff in your brain.
• 29:27
  You're like, Oh my Lord, I think, have you ever heard?
• 29:31
  And I know that your, your audience is very well versed, as
• 29:35
  are you, Gavin. People will talk about
• 29:38
  overcharging. You've heard about this.
• 29:40
  You know where you know. Oh yeah.
• 29:42
  Yeah, people. Well, that is a real thing.
• 29:45
  People do overcharge so that they're hoping they will shoot
• 29:48
  for the moon, but they're hoping if they miss, they're just going
• 29:50
  to miss, you know, just shy of that there.
• 29:53
  Are they will scare a defendant into playing?
• 29:55
  Yeah, you have to roll over on the case, but there are those
• 29:58
  things, There are those moments where when you're working a
• 30:02
  case, the DA will get so into this case and so involved that
• 30:08
  they want to specifically charge, you know, and they're
• 30:11
  going to create this huge laundry list of things.
• 30:14
  And it's not just the overcharging, it's what it's
• 30:18
  like. You have the ability, your
• 30:21
  statute, your statutory obligation gives you the ability
• 30:25
  to stack these charges like this.
• 30:28
  And I don't know if we'll, if there will be more charges.
• 30:31
  There could be, particularly if you've got somebody, you know,
• 30:36
  because we had mentioned that if he has got compatriots in this,
• 30:43
  you, you could get conspiracy charges, you know, that could,
• 30:47
  could come into this. And if he's the ringleader in a
• 30:50
  conspiracy, there are certain states out there.
• 30:53
  I, you know, I, I don't know about the status of
• 30:56
  Pennsylvania. There are certain states that
• 30:57
  if, if you're the principal in a conspiracy, you can, you can get
• 31:01
  the needle for that. So.
• 31:05
  I that was reminding me that one of the cases that I looked at
• 31:09
  very early on when I was kind of in my little YouTube journey was
• 31:14
  the case of Amanda Winkowski. And I don't know if I've talked
• 31:16
  to you about Amanda's case. It's very important case to me.
• 31:19
  This is the very first time that I got an entire police file that
• 31:24
  included autopsy photos. She was exhumed in a second
• 31:27
  autopsy, was on crime scene photos.
• 31:29
  All the police reports is the very first time I've gotten
• 31:32
  that. And in her case, the medical
• 31:36
  examiner's office ruled her death an accidental overdose.
• 31:41
  Now, she didn't have any of the metabolites of the drug that she
• 31:45
  supposedly overdosed on and toxicology.
• 31:49
  But the the thing that added insult to injury in that case is
• 31:52
  when they found Amanda's body, it was completely naked, thrown
• 31:58
  away into a trash can like those outside roll away cans that you
• 32:02
  put out to right upside down in the Buffalo winter.
• 32:06
  She was frozen solid. And I thought, you can't, you
• 32:11
  can't be as unloving as that. You can't be any more unloving,
• 32:16
  yeah? Yeah, yeah, you're right.
• 32:20
  And it is. And look, I again, I don't, I am
• 32:24
  not, forgive me, I'm on, I'm on a roll tonight.
• 32:29
  I've had this conversation with multiple people over, I know the
• 32:34
  span of the last three months and going back two years ago
• 32:37
  when we were crime con Dave and I, we actually did an entire
• 32:42
  live taping of body bags there and it was focused on
• 32:47
  dismemberment. And the reason I did that is I
• 32:54
  had dismemberment cases when I was working in a 20 year career.
• 33:01
  I've never seen the like of it that we have today.
• 33:04
  And that goes, yeah, yeah, not I, I, again, this is not based
• 33:10
  upon some kind of empirical data that I have, but it seems to me
• 33:17
  there's been a significant uptick in the way people are
• 33:21
  actually treating bodies after they have committed homicide.
• 33:26
  And as a matter of fact, I mean, some of the things that I see,
• 33:29
  some stuff that we cover on body bags is so even by my standard,
• 33:33
  which I've got a completely different template than
• 33:36
  everybody. Else it.
• 33:37
  It shocks me and I, I, you know, I guess somebody could say that
• 33:42
  I'm kind of biased. I'm, I'm kind of biased in that
• 33:48
  way, but maybe I'm looking for it.
• 33:50
  But there, there are a number of cases that are out there that
• 33:52
  involve some type of desecration of remains and maltreatment of
• 33:57
  human remains. And so it's, you know, it's like
• 34:02
  you have a homicide and some of these homicides are horrible,
• 34:05
  the way the people died because they're torturous.
• 34:07
  You got multiple injuries, a lot of overkill, but then you don't
• 34:13
  think it can get any worse. And then you have this and this
• 34:17
  is happening repeated just repeatedly over and over and
• 34:22
  over again. It's not a manifestation I'm
• 34:24
  seeing just simply in the US It's something that that I'm
• 34:30
  actually seeing manifested in other countries as well.
• 34:35
  Yeah. And it's it's because the labor
• 34:38
  involved in this is so over the top, you know, and and these are
• 34:44
  people that, you know, have not worked, have not worked in a
• 34:48
  morgue like I have, you know, where they spent a lot of hours
• 34:52
  doing prosecting on human remains.
• 34:54
  It's, you know, I have a callous built up to it.
• 34:57
  These are people that have never been exposed to this.
• 35:01
  You know how? Do you go?
• 35:03
  Yeah, that's, that's The thing is maybe they have, you know,
• 35:05
  and that's. Yeah, yeah, that's, that's one
• 35:09
  other piece to consider to this and back to this defendant that
• 35:12
  we're talking about in Kate's case.
• 35:15
  And this is kind of the interesting tie back.
• 35:18
  I think it'll in one small way at least.
• 35:22
  Forgive me. I I I was just thinking about
• 35:24
  this as well. This alleged perpetrator has
• 35:29
  also got a history of this other violent act, you know, that he
• 35:34
  had committed that I don't know if it was like a, an kind of an
• 35:39
  info hate event, you know, where he didn't get to complete what
• 35:42
  he was going to do or whatever it was.
• 35:45
  I have no idea. But it was it was over the top.
• 35:49
  And maybe he he's on a learning curve.
• 35:52
  Maybe there are other, you know, victims, I have no idea.
• 35:57
  But so if he, if he has people that have knowledge of this
• 36:02
  particular case, if that's our supposition here, what about the
• 36:05
  earlier case? You know earlier.
• 36:07
  Case are, are there, are there people that that could be you
• 36:10
  know involved or have an awareness with that one as well?
• 36:13
  Yeah, I don't know. Now, OK, I keep trying to get
• 36:18
  here and we have fascinating little sidetracks which are
• 36:21
  awesome. I'll shutting.
• 36:22
  My mouth there you. Go no, no, no, no.
• 36:24
  I I'm loving this, but OK, getting back to the body it, it
• 36:30
  appears that Kada's body was in the car for some amount of time,
• 36:35
  right? Couple days, something like
• 36:36
  that. And then on the 18th, or I
• 36:43
  can't, I can't remember exactly what the timeline is here, but
• 36:46
  they they do bury her in a small grave on the 18th they found
• 36:51
  according to the according to the PCA here, it says following
• 36:56
  an anonymous tip, detectives conducted a grid search at the
• 36:59
  ADA Lewis Middle School. Freshly disturbed soil was
• 37:02
  located along the northeast perimeter.
• 37:05
  Evac excavation revealed human remains consistent with a young
• 37:08
  female. A silver gold earring matching
• 37:11
  one near the burial site was recovered by the rec center
• 37:13
  gate. I thought that was an
• 37:14
  interesting little piece of information.
• 37:17
  And then the following day, the Emmy's office positively
• 37:21
  identified the remains as cada in that shallow grave.
• 37:26
  I mean, we are I, I don't know the exact time frame, but it, it
• 37:31
  almost appears like within a few days she was buried.
• 37:35
  Like by the 7th or the 8th she was buried and then she wasn't
• 37:40
  found until the 18th. What kind of forensic, I guess,
• 37:45
  what kind of forensic evidence could be developed at that
• 37:50
  burial site over that amount of time and what forensic evidence
• 37:54
  might be lost? OK, well, let's let's start.
• 38:01
  Let's go back to the car real quick.
• 38:03
  All right, Not knowing where her death occurred.
• 38:08
  OK, If the car was car used as a conveyance away from a, an
• 38:13
  initial primary site where she sustained this gunshot wound, or
• 38:18
  maybe there was also an adjunct sexual assault that took place
• 38:21
  in that location. They put her in a car and now
• 38:24
  you have a major problem on your hand if you're a perpetrator.
• 38:26
  I've got a body. I don't know what to do with the
• 38:28
  body. Well, why would you move the
• 38:30
  body from the initial site? Why would you place this body in
• 38:33
  a car? Why not just abandoned the body?
• 38:35
  Where where it was perpetrated. Well, then you begin to think
• 38:39
  about the mindset of the perpetrator.
• 38:42
  I have to take the body, sequester the body so no one
• 38:44
  will find the body. And then they go back after a
• 38:48
  period of time and they say, oh, well, after I've deposited the
• 38:52
  body, now I'm going to have to do something with a car.
• 38:58
  And it's just dumb luck that, you know, FIRE responded to this
• 39:01
  thing and put it out and then they haul it off and crush it.
• 39:08
  All right. So that would be 1 to his
• 39:11
  benefit at that point in time. But they wind up finding the
• 39:14
  body and they're able to track all this back and kind of stitch
• 39:17
  it together with the electronics.
• 39:19
  This is the timeline on the scene is really fascinating to
• 39:23
  me. Also, if you couple this with
• 39:26
  the idea that whoever she was talking to that night, you know,
• 39:32
  where these text messages, you know, they're going back and
• 39:34
  forth when she got got to work and that it happened so quickly
• 39:39
  at work, it's kind of kind of fascinating as well.
• 39:42
  Why is that fascinating to you? I think that it's fascinating
• 39:45
  because the the text had, I'm not going to say, and we don't
• 39:51
  know everything that was contained at well, I don't know,
• 39:54
  maybe we do, but there's this is I hate to keep using this word,
• 39:59
  but there's a a hand of intimacy here.
• 40:01
  And I'm not saying that they're like physically intimate.
• 40:04
  It's like, you know, this person now, because look, you're at
• 40:08
  risk. You show up and particularly at
• 40:10
  a medical facility and you know, to anybody in the audience that
• 40:14
  is, that works in a medical facility where there's hospital
• 40:18
  care, home assisted living, whatever, that time when she got
• 40:22
  to work. Is a very critical time and it's
• 40:25
  something that if you've ever had loved ones in the hospital,
• 40:28
  you're going to know exactly what I'm talking about is shift
• 40:30
  change and it is frenetic. It's a nightmare because you're
• 40:34
  having to pass on information to the oncoming shift.
• 40:39
  Well, she steps out right after her shift has started.
• 40:43
  That's kind of a critical time. And plus if you have people
• 40:48
  that, and I don't know to what degree they are intensely taking
• 40:51
  care of people. Is it assisted living in the
• 40:54
  sense that there is a nursing station there?
• 40:57
  Or is it assisted living where, you know, the Cnas or maybe on
• 41:02
  site nurse has an office they'll just go and sit in, But somebody
• 41:07
  has to administer drugs, perhaps particularly those that are not
• 41:11
  doing well. So you're having to go around
• 41:12
  and do bed checks, make sure everybody's in the bed.
• 41:15
  If you've got people that have memory issues, you have to make
• 41:18
  sure that they're tucked in, they're secure in their
• 41:20
  location. And at that critical point in
• 41:23
  time when she's doing this and she's walking out the door,
• 41:28
  that's kind of, you know, it kind of puts a target at that
• 41:32
  moment. Tom, I, I just, it would be, it
• 41:35
  would be different in my mind if she'd responded to a call, say
• 41:39
  closer to midnight, you know, she knows she's going to work
• 41:43
  and whoever it is that texted her knew that she was going to
• 41:46
  work as well. So she's going to go out and
• 41:49
  meet them out there. You know what?
• 41:51
  Why is this happening? Why is it happening at this
• 41:53
  moment in time? So she felt like it was worth
• 41:56
  taking the risk, maybe at the risk of, you know, coming under
• 42:01
  fire from a supervisor because it's a critical moment in time
• 42:03
  to step outside. And the next thing you know, we
• 42:08
  don't have hiding hair over at that point in.
• 42:10
  Time you know the the fascinating thing to me there is
• 42:12
  that this is a medical facility and apparently we don't have.
• 42:16
  Videos yeah, I know, I know that that was amazing to me.
• 42:21
  And again, there are anytime the term I've I've tried to be very
• 42:26
  careful anytime the term assisted living center is used.
• 42:30
  That can mean it it, it can. There's a whole spectrum of
• 42:35
  things that can OK. Many times people have gotten
• 42:38
  away from the term nursing home for whatever reason.
• 42:43
  You hear retirement home over the past that you have assisted
• 42:47
  living. Well, assisted living implies
• 42:50
  that you need assistance. You know that.
• 42:52
  And that's going to come in varies various degrees because
• 42:55
  not everybody's going to require the same assistance.
• 42:58
  You have people that have physical issues that they have
• 43:00
  to get taken care of. You got people that have
• 43:02
  medication issues, food issues. And you've got people that have
• 43:08
  not psych problems, but you have people that that might be
• 43:11
  suffering from memory issues where, you know, they're almost
• 43:14
  like childlike state. What happens if one of those
• 43:18
  walk off? Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 43:21
  And it's. And again, back to the CCTV
• 43:25
  thing, it's kind of critical in a facility like this.
• 43:30
  I can't tell you over the years how many skeletal remains you're
• 43:34
  going to find this really wild, how many skeletal remains I've
• 43:37
  worked of the elderly that had memory issues that wandered away
• 43:43
  from facilities. And in the South we have.
• 43:46
  And if I have any southerners listening, don't know exactly
• 43:48
  what I'm talking about. We have these vast fields,
• 43:49
  kudzu, and it's this vine, you know, that grows all over the
• 43:53
  South, actually consumes buildings by the way.
• 43:58
  And I found, I can't tell you how many remain skeletal remains
• 44:01
  I've found in patches of kudzu where you have this, they're
• 44:05
  almost in a child like state and they just kind of wander off.
• 44:07
  They look for a cool place to lay down.
• 44:08
  They'll lay down in a patch of kudzu and they'll die of
• 44:10
  exposure. So there's a real risk here.
• 44:13
  You can have people, one of my best friends, their parent had
• 44:18
  dementia and they walked out of the facility and drowned.
• 44:23
  That a pond that a pond on the on the property and walked into
• 44:27
  the pond. So, yeah, and I'm hoping, you
• 44:31
  know, that we're taking, you know, more due care, you know,
• 44:34
  at these facilities. But it that to me was really
• 44:37
  striking. That and also how did she exit
• 44:41
  the building, how she intended to get back in?
• 44:43
  Is there carts wipe? You know, does your electronic
• 44:46
  key, do you have to punch in a code?
• 44:48
  I don't know. Does she have a standard key,
• 44:50
  you know, where you have to unlock the door?
• 44:52
  I don't know. Yeah, OK.
• 44:55
  One, one of the things that I guess kind of strikes me is
• 45:01
  getting back to the scene where her remains were found.
• 45:05
  They described it as a shallow grave.
• 45:07
  Now, they also described people coming and going from the car to
• 45:12
  the grave over the course of a couple days.
• 45:14
  Actually, I don't know how many people have worked on the end of
• 45:20
  a shovel. When I was 18 and 19 years old,
• 45:23
  17/18/19 years old, I was a general laborer for a
• 45:27
  contracting company where we built gas stations.
• 45:30
  And so I was the guy that after the backhoe or the excavator
• 45:34
  was, was pulling out big chunks of dirt, I was all I had to do
• 45:38
  was like just kind of clean it up.
• 45:40
  And that is really, really hard work.
• 45:42
  And you know, putting gravel back in those in those trenches
• 45:46
  and, and filling them in and stuff like that.
• 45:48
  Working on the end of a shovel is really hard work.
• 45:51
  It is. I, when, when I see in the
• 45:55
  movies, like I, I love the Taylor Sheridan westerns, you
• 45:59
  know, Yellowstone and whatever it is, 1888 and all that, where
• 46:04
  they're digging a grave for somebody and they get it down to
• 46:06
  like 6 feet. Well, that cut took had to take
• 46:09
  about 14 1/2 hours for them to get down 16, right.
• 46:14
  And so I had wondered, I, I wonder what the mindset of
• 46:18
  somebody like that is, like somebody who hasn't worked at
• 46:21
  the end of a shovel yet. And they go, OK, well, we're
• 46:23
  going to bury her. And then two hours later they're
• 46:26
  6 inches down and they've been working on this hard, hard
• 46:30
  thing. And then they, OK, that's
• 46:31
  enough. We're just going to put her in
• 46:33
  there and cover her up, right. But I mean, the, if she is in a
• 46:38
  grave, she's covered with dirt. Getting back to that forensic
• 46:42
  thing, what are what are investigators like you finding
• 46:46
  in in, in that kind of a scene? Well, particularly considering
• 46:51
  how long she'd been down dirt, even a mounded mounded earth.
• 46:57
  And this is what would be referred to as a clandestine
• 47:00
  grave. I'm actually in the middle of
• 47:02
  teaching a class in clandestine graves right now at my
• 47:05
  University of Jacksonville State.
• 47:08
  And when you have a clandestine grave, it's a matter of there's
• 47:19
  kind of there's a couple ways it works.
• 47:21
  First off, people can pre dig holes if they're, you know, and
• 47:24
  of course that goes to the status of the mind relative to
• 47:27
  premeditation. You know, you have intent to put
• 47:30
  something in there pre dug and you don't have access to a
• 47:35
  backhoe. So you got to have strong back,
• 47:37
  you got to have patience. And most people Peter out really
• 47:41
  quickly. You know, I don't recall, Gavin.
• 47:46
  Yeah, over the course of my career where I've ever worked a
• 47:50
  case involving a hand dug grave that was actually, that was
• 47:53
  literally 6 feet deep, the most robust that was hand dug.
• 47:58
  And I've had people that have used excavators, OK, but hand
• 48:04
  dug grave, maybe, maybe 3 feet, Yeah.
• 48:11
  Maximum in depth and they will not be the right length
• 48:15
  inevitably bodies are contracted they're like many times they're
• 48:24
  in almost a fetal position and that that goes to the exhaustion
• 48:31
  on the part of the person that's you know that is on on the on
• 48:34
  the end of the handle. You get out into a wooded area
• 48:38
  like this and you're talking about, that's one of the
• 48:41
  reasons, you know, that they in this report they're talking
• 48:44
  about that there's evidence of of turn to earth.
• 48:49
  Well, the reason it's significant is because none of
• 48:52
  the other earth is turned and it's incredibly compacted out
• 48:56
  there. And so you'll see these bodies
• 49:00
  that are kind of contracted balled up her state as well.
• 49:06
  And this needs to be remembered. You're talking about an
• 49:09
  individual that would be handling a pretty advanced body,
• 49:17
  pretty advanced decomposing body, moderately advanced
• 49:20
  decomposing body. This is something, again, that
• 49:23
  they're not used to doing. Right.
• 49:26
  And you, you have to factor that in as well, right?
• 49:30
  Because most people, I've had some of the most resilient
• 49:35
  externally, some of the most resilient people in the world
• 49:37
  that are uniform cops that I'll go out on on a scene on.
• 49:42
  And it's generally guys, women don't flee from these scenes as
• 49:46
  much. I think it's my wife used to get
• 49:50
  on me because I I had a problem changing dirty diapers on our
• 49:53
  babies. I could work with decomps all
• 49:55
  day long, but if I had diaper, you know, it's like, oh, you
• 49:59
  know, but yeah, men in particular, they don't do real
• 50:03
  well around decomposing bodies. Many times they're not as
• 50:07
  resilient as women are. And you put an individual in
• 50:12
  there, in there, they're going to try to flee from it and get
• 50:17
  distance. And that that winds up making
• 50:19
  this very shoddy work. It's not going to be sufficient
• 50:23
  depth. You would have to go down
• 50:24
  significantly and then repack the soil because you can never,
• 50:31
  you can never get soil to look again like it did in its
• 50:36
  pristine state. I think a lot of people just
• 50:39
  automatically think that when we, that when we, you know, we
• 50:46
  dig a hole that we can just fill it back in.
• 50:49
  It's going to look exactly like it did.
• 50:50
  There's, it's an empirical impossibility.
• 50:52
  You can't do that. And there's a variety of
• 50:55
  reasons. You know, it's one of the things
• 50:56
  we talked about in clandestine burials, turbation and soil.
• 51:00
  The earth is moving, hydrology, things are changing beneath
• 51:04
  that. We can't even begin to
• 51:05
  appreciate soil composition, interaction, wildlife.
• 51:10
  There's all these things that factor into this and it's going
• 51:12
  to change the appearance. And not to mention just on the
• 51:15
  surface where you might have, there's several species of wild
• 51:20
  grasses that like in this area in Pennsylvania, there are
• 51:23
  native flora that grow in that area.
• 51:26
  Even if you've got a jumped out area where debris is kind of
• 51:29
  cast aside in this wooded area, you're going to have these
• 51:31
  little sprigs of things, right? This vegetation.
• 51:34
  Well, one of the first things you look for in a clandestine
• 51:37
  grave is you look for an absence of the native flora because you
• 51:44
  will have turned it. And another thing, and I've seen
• 51:48
  this in graves, you've you'll actually see plants that are
• 51:52
  inverted and the roots are sticking up out of the.
• 51:55
  Top of the mouth. There's your sign, you know you,
• 52:00
  but you have to take real due care.
• 52:02
  You know when you're processing this thing because you you know,
• 52:04
  you smell it, You know that there's things there.
• 52:08
  And I'm going to be very interested to see, I think how
• 52:12
  they processed her grave because that in and of itself, that's
• 52:15
  another a completely different kind of crime scene processing.
• 52:20
  Because when the cops, when the cops find this clandestine
• 52:24
  grave, this site that they described as, you know, the
• 52:28
  earth had been turned, right? They're not going to start
• 52:32
  digging and looking for a body there, right?
• 52:34
  They're going to call in experts, right?
• 52:37
  It all depends on who shows up. If you've got OK, if you, if
• 52:41
  you've got somebody that is a bit overzealous is not really
• 52:47
  the term. But if you get a young cop out
• 52:48
  there, maybe they've been feverishly looking forward.
• 52:52
  And sometimes you're, you're human and we're always human.
• 52:55
  But you have the spark within you where you've been on the
• 52:58
  case you've been looking for, for a person.
• 53:02
  You have to confirm it in your own mind.
• 53:05
  And sometimes people have a hard time pulling back from that.
• 53:07
  And I've seen, you know, I've seen people that have gotten out
• 53:09
  there and have dug through graves, you know, and it
• 53:11
  doesn't, it doesn't help us, you know, because if we suspect, it
• 53:16
  doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out you've got
• 53:18
  something decomposing. And look, if you call me out
• 53:21
  formally, you could have called me out to a scene.
• 53:23
  If you smell something decomposing that's beneath the
• 53:25
  surface of the earth. If I dig this up and it's
• 53:29
  somebody's dog, I don't care. I'm glad you called me.
• 53:32
  You know, I'll take the time. We'll excavate it.
• 53:35
  We'll take a look at it. I would rather be safe.
• 53:38
  So that doesn't bother me. If you smell it, if you see
• 53:41
  turned earth, you need to go ahead and call the forensics
• 53:46
  people, people in my world, you know, whether it's the crime
• 53:49
  scene techs, the forensic anthropologist who I'm hoping
• 53:52
  showed up at the scene. Penn State has got a really good
• 53:57
  anthropology program. And I don't know if they have,
• 54:00
  they probably have a state forensic anthropologist.
• 54:03
  I don't know if they were consulted and brought in, but to
• 54:07
  have them there because this is, it's amazing forensic
• 54:11
  anthropologist, really amazing people because it's not just
• 54:14
  about looking at bones. It's they're actually pretty
• 54:17
  decent geologist as well. Yeah.
• 54:22
  They can look at things on the ground and they can see things
• 54:26
  that you and I cannot see. Like it's almost like a fire
• 54:29
  investigator as well. You know, you take some.
• 54:31
  When I walk into a fire scene, if I have an arson case of death
• 54:34
  that's in a burned out building, I look around, somebody has to
• 54:38
  point me to where the body is because everything's Gray or
• 54:42
  black, you know, or muddy. But arson investigator can look
• 54:48
  at that environment and they'll say, oh, well, this is where
• 54:50
  this happened. This is where that happened.
• 54:51
  Same thing with with forensic anthropology slash archaeology.
• 54:57
  They look at this turned soul and they can look for little
• 55:00
  nuances, little artifacts, if you will, along the way that are
• 55:05
  going to tell that story. And you don't want to disturb
• 55:07
  any of that. Before they have time, they will
• 55:10
  literally do, you know, they talked about doing a grid
• 55:12
  search. There's two different types of
• 55:15
  grid searches. You can do a grid search where
• 55:17
  you're literally searching for a body, but with a grave, you will
• 55:22
  create another grid. OK, that runs the the the
• 55:30
  vertical axis of the body and also the horizontal axis.
• 55:33
  And that's, you know, you kind of place this thing around you
• 55:36
  have it's almost like, you know, you sunk my battleship.
• 55:39
  You know you have these individual Gray grids and you'll
• 55:42
  excavate each grid along the way until you get down below you go
• 55:46
  subsurface with it. Now pretty soon you know, you'll
• 55:50
  get to the point where you know you'll see an arm, you might see
• 55:54
  a finger, and you're your inclination is, you know, you
• 55:58
  want to start brushing. But no matter how much you brush
• 56:02
  things away, you're not going to bring her back to life.
• 56:05
  She's dead. So it's better to take your time
• 56:10
  and clean away everything because within each one of those
• 56:15
  grids and the grids are generally about maybe it all
• 56:20
  depends on who's directing to dig.
• 56:23
  I've seen them be as small as like 6 inches by 6 inches.
• 56:26
  I've seen them out to 12 inches by 12 inches.
• 56:30
  And you excavate each one of those grids and you're many
• 56:33
  times we're scooping out that shovel and you see us using
• 56:36
  sifters at the scene. We'll take it over.
• 56:38
  There's generally a bucket person that takes the bucket
• 56:41
  over there. You've got the hands and knees,
• 56:43
  people that are down there, you know, kind of doing this.
• 56:45
  They got another person at the station that's going through
• 56:48
  every little bit there, OK. Now, I don't know if they did
• 56:51
  that. For all I know they just brushed
• 56:54
  the dirt away and had at it. You know, I hope that they took
• 56:58
  because fire has been involved in this case.
• 57:02
  I don't know if it touched her. I don't think it did, but, you
• 57:07
  know, you have to. And that that makes things
• 57:09
  particularly brittle. OK.
• 57:11
  One of my questions is, I thought that in my mind I feared
• 57:15
  that there was probably a sexual component to this.
• 57:21
  If she died on the 4th and she was found on the 18th, what is
• 57:28
  the likelihood that there would be a biological anything
• 57:33
  leftover to be able to prove whether or not she had been
• 57:36
  assaulted that way? To a certain degree, I think
• 57:39
  that it's possible the, the one, the one major problem you have
• 57:46
  to overcome is if there is a, a perpetrator out there that is
• 57:51
  sinking ahead far enough to see if I can do this in polite
• 57:57
  company to flush the body, clean the body in a postmortem state.
• 58:05
  Then you, you would, you can find evidence of, of sexual
• 58:16
  assault and that's going to be compromised.
• 58:18
  You know, if there's any kind of Seminole deposition or anything
• 58:20
  like that. But the one thing you're looking
• 58:21
  for, and this is going to be kind of difficult to, it's going
• 58:25
  to be any kind of sexual related trauma like where you have a
• 58:30
  forced sexual assault and let's, let's face it, sexual assaults
• 58:35
  are forced all right. And so, and you can get trauma,
• 58:42
  external trauma, you can get an internal trauma with that as
• 58:45
  well. There would be evidence of that.
• 58:47
  And then, but to complicate matters is that if you're,
• 58:52
  you're in the midst of this kind of linear, linear time of
• 58:57
  decomposition, you can misinterpret, you know, injuries
• 59:04
  that may have taken place either in the anti mortem or it's
• 59:06
  called the Perry mortem state where they're like right in
• 59:09
  them, right in the midst of dying.
• 59:11
  Some of that stuff can be misinterpreted.
• 59:14
  So you have to be very, very careful.
• 59:17
  It's, it's really, it's kind of conundrum because with bodies
• 59:22
  that are in a moderate to advanced state of decomposition,
• 59:25
  I mean, even even us, we don't want to linger around remains
• 59:30
  any longer than we have to. However, by virtue of what
• 59:33
  you're trying to do from an evidentiary standpoint, it's
• 59:36
  almost mandated that you take more time being around, being
• 59:41
  around a remain that is severely decomposed because it's so easy
• 59:49
  to miss things because you're fighting against, you're
• 59:52
  fighting against nature and nature consumes things.
• 59:56
  That's just what nature does. And so that's, you know, that
• 1:00:00
  can be, you know, that can be very, very difficult.
• 1:00:03
  Robin says it's true about the stinky stuff my daughter can
• 1:00:06
  deal with decomp, but cleaner cat boxes?
• 1:00:08
  No way. This is actually reminding me
• 1:00:10
  something that you said. And I may have shared this with
• 1:00:13
  you before, but in my day job, this was a couple years ago, I
• 1:00:17
  was interviewing our county coroner.
• 1:00:20
  We were at like a coffee shop and I was interviewing her first
• 1:00:23
  story and she got a call and she needed to go to a death scene.
• 1:00:31
  So she asked me, do you want to go?
• 1:00:34
  Yeah, I'm, I'm down. So I, I join her, I follow her
• 1:00:38
  in my car and we head out to to a neighboring city.
• 1:00:42
  And it was a case where a man had had died like, and he'd been
• 1:00:47
  in his apartment for like a week.
• 1:00:50
  We get there and all of these big burly police officer
• 1:00:55
  military types are standing outside and they're going, I'm
• 1:00:59
  not going near that place, right.
• 1:01:02
  And so she goes, well, come help me, Gavin.
• 1:01:04
  And we go inside and we find a decedent who was a large man,
• 1:01:11
  big man that required muscles in order to after the investigation
• 1:01:15
  was done to to get him to the Funeral Home, those cops would
• 1:01:22
  not go near it. No if they won't.
• 1:01:25
  They weren't it. It didn't matter.
• 1:01:27
  Our coroner is like 85 lbs soaking wet.
• 1:01:30
  She's not going to be able to do this on her own.
• 1:01:33
  And those cops would not do it. They cops, they would say, like,
• 1:01:38
  they don't pay me to do that. Yeah, cops flee from that.
• 1:01:41
  You know who, who goes to it, who's always willing to lend a
• 1:01:44
  hand. And I love cops, you know, I
• 1:01:47
  mean, I teach the. Firefighters, right?
• 1:01:50
  Yeah, I love firefighters because they're they travel
• 1:01:54
  around in like a gaggle and they're like, they're like, is
• 1:01:57
  there, what do you need? Is there anything we can do to
• 1:02:01
  help you? How can I be of service?
• 1:02:03
  Yes. Yeah, it's and that's what I
• 1:02:05
  love about firefighters. So and I've had to go into some
• 1:02:07
  of the most austere environments to retrieve bodies and to work
• 1:02:10
  cases and they would like now we're right here if you need
• 1:02:14
  anything. Do you want us to like I
• 1:02:16
  remember I had to descend down into the empty bowels of a super
• 1:02:23
  tanker that was moored on the and the thing had been carrying
• 1:02:26
  oil and God fallen through the Hatch and impacted on the
• 1:02:31
  ribbing down in the bowl. And I had to descend the ladder
• 1:02:34
  and the ladder is about this wide and I don't even know how
• 1:02:37
  many stories. I was terrified.
• 1:02:39
  I was terrified, you know, and they had cinched me up and, you
• 1:02:42
  know, because I had to go examine the body and take
• 1:02:45
  pictures of the body down in the bottom of the sink.
• 1:02:47
  And of course, they, they send the basket down and I'm having
• 1:02:50
  to load the basket by myself, you know, with a body bag.
• 1:02:53
  I just kind of let the body bag freefall, you know, through the
• 1:02:56
  air until it hit and into the base of the ship.
• 1:03:00
  Firefighters are that way, though.
• 1:03:02
  They don't, they don't run away from from things like that.
• 1:03:05
  Cops. It's like, I don't want to mess
• 1:03:06
  up my uniform. Yeah, they'll, they'll stay
• 1:03:10
  away. But on one other note, you know
• 1:03:12
  my wife, who you know, one of the things that she would ask
• 1:03:15
  every day, literally every day when I would get home from work,
• 1:03:19
  and this is kind of sad commentary, she'd meet me at the
• 1:03:22
  back door. And your, your family gets so
• 1:03:26
  involved in what you do as a death investigator and they
• 1:03:29
  understand it. Thankfully, thank God for my
• 1:03:31
  wife because she understood and still understands all the other
• 1:03:34
  craziness I'm involved in. She would, she would meet me at
• 1:03:39
  the door and say, did you work at Decomp today?
• 1:03:43
  And I would say, yeah. She'd say take clothes off and
• 1:03:46
  I'd have to take my clothes off. They're on the stoop in the
• 1:03:48
  backyard. I'd have to put them in a bag.
• 1:03:50
  She'd bag them up and she would wash them.
• 1:03:53
  And so that's that's kind of the nature of it.
• 1:03:56
  Well, that leads me into a question that occurred to me.
• 1:03:58
  Is that like, OK, if these, let's call them these, I guess
• 1:04:04
  defendants or assailants or whatever the the Confederates
• 1:04:09
  who were who were putting Porcata in that grave, would
• 1:04:16
  there be how long? I mean, I would imagine that
• 1:04:20
  there would be transfer of decomp to them either either
• 1:04:25
  like full on fluid or airborne or something like that.
• 1:04:29
  Is that something that police would would find evidentially?
• 1:04:35
  Evidentially. Speaking.
• 1:04:36
  Yeah, perhaps. And also soul transfer.
• 1:04:41
  Here's a good one. Again, this brings in a practice
• 1:04:45
  that not many people know about. It's forensic geology because
• 1:04:48
  let's just say you've got a defendant that is domiciled in
• 1:04:54
  another location away from this area and say the area where
• 1:04:58
  CADIS remains were deposited. That soil there is going to be
• 1:05:02
  very specific to that geographic location.
• 1:05:06
  So if you're digging down in a hole and let's say the soil in
• 1:05:10
  that location has more of a loamy consistency to it or sandy
• 1:05:13
  consistency. If they retain those clothes,
• 1:05:17
  that clothing, and you can also find it on people's shoes as
• 1:05:20
  well. And you take that home and you
• 1:05:23
  try to Stow this clothes somewhere and you don't clean
• 1:05:26
  them effectively. And when I say effectively, I
• 1:05:28
  mean like effectively to get rid of any remnant, they can take
• 1:05:32
  that clothing and they can't say that you in fact were there.
• 1:05:35
  However, they can build out a case to say, you know, if they
• 1:05:39
  get a forensic geologist on the stand and say what's the
• 1:05:42
  likelihood that you would find this particular soil?
• 1:05:44
  In. On this individual who is not
• 1:05:46
  domiciled in this location. Now, I don't know how
• 1:05:51
  desperately different it is where this individual's
• 1:05:54
  domiciled as opposed to where Cato was, was buried, you know,
• 1:05:59
  geographic or geologically. Many times that will will apply
• 1:06:04
  to larger areas, but it's certainly something to consider.
• 1:06:10
  You know, we do things with pollens as well on bodies and on
• 1:06:14
  dependence if we find certain pollens.
• 1:06:17
  And again, that gets into forensic botany.
• 1:06:20
  And, and those can be very micro like I, I what do I know about
• 1:06:26
  this? But I know that when I go to my
• 1:06:27
  honey guy like he has different flavor honey from places that
• 1:06:32
  are only like 3 or 4 miles apart.
• 1:06:35
  Yep, Yep, you're absolutely right.
• 1:06:36
  We have the same thing here. Our departmental administrator,
• 1:06:40
  her and her husband are honey people.
• 1:06:42
  And I buy their honey not just because I like it.
• 1:06:45
  I'd use use it as a medicine because if I take a dose of that
• 1:06:50
  honey, you know, it's going to knock down any kind of sinusitis
• 1:06:57
  that I might have relative to, you know, the environment around
• 1:07:00
  me. So but yeah, yeah, those are
• 1:07:04
  certainly issues as well. I'm right now what I'm very
• 1:07:09
  interested in I think is going to be her body obviously in the
• 1:07:14
  grave. But anything that may have
• 1:07:16
  fallen off of somebody. I've worked in cases where I
• 1:07:20
  actually worked a case that was solved by God that took a a
• 1:07:24
  filtered cigarette as there were two escapees of penitentiary in
• 1:07:29
  Florida many years ago and killed a guy in the French
• 1:07:31
  Quarter and beat him to death with a a camera tripod.
• 1:07:35
  Oh my goodness, Took him out in the swamp and buried him and one
• 1:07:42
  of the guys was smoking Marlboro Lights and he thumped the filter
• 1:07:46
  into the grave and then dumped the body on top of the on top of
• 1:07:50
  the filter well. Thank goodness for stupid
• 1:07:52
  criminals. Yeah, it's amazing.
• 1:07:55
  You'd be surprised what people leave behind because you know,
• 1:07:58
  this is the thing. They're they have this thing in
• 1:08:01
  their mind. I'm doing all this work to dig
• 1:08:03
  the hole, ergo no one's going to find it because I'm concealing
• 1:08:06
  the body. So anything they leave behind,
• 1:08:09
  they get careless. Many times anything they leave
• 1:08:11
  behind, that very well might be be the thing that's going to
• 1:08:17
  turn the case because they're careless.
• 1:08:18
  They don't. We, you know, these people get
• 1:08:20
  into this frenetic race when they're trying to get distance
• 1:08:23
  between themselves and the body. I've got all the time in the
• 1:08:27
  world when I show up, I've got people bringing me coolers of
• 1:08:31
  cold drinks and sandwiches. I've got a place to go sit in
• 1:08:34
  the shade. I can, you know, go cool off for
• 1:08:37
  a few minutes, put my gloves back on, walk back over there
• 1:08:41
  and I can stay out there. I've stayed at scenes for five
• 1:08:44
  days at a time. No pressure.
• 1:08:46
  It makes no difference. No, I have no pressure other
• 1:08:49
  than to do an excellent job or try to do an excellent job.
• 1:08:52
  I've failed many times, but trying to do an excellent job
• 1:08:55
  while I'm there and trying to serve, serve the people that I'm
• 1:08:58
  with because I'm no anthropologist, but I'm a good
• 1:09:00
  shovel leaner and so I don't mind being in the dirt with
• 1:09:04
  bodies and aiding in that process.
• 1:09:07
  I've done it for a long, long time.
• 1:09:09
  I saw a question just a. Moment, Yeah, we've got a
• 1:09:10
  question here I want to bring back up there couple.
• 1:09:13
  Yeah, yeah. The The Who was a carry that had
• 1:09:17
  asked about the why. Why do you see backhoes?
• 1:09:20
  I think there was a backhoe thinking back to the kids with
• 1:09:25
  the Daybell case. Yeah, they did.
• 1:09:28
  They, they have, yeah. So many times what they'll do
• 1:09:36
  with backhoes is they will dig out peripheral to where they
• 1:09:42
  think the central area is and they'll take out, they'll scrape
• 1:09:45
  off that surface area of of untouched soil and they'll get
• 1:09:53
  all of the flora out of the way, clear out an area.
• 1:09:57
  Most of the time you're not going to go directly in.
• 1:09:59
  And can I plug something real quick?
• 1:10:01
  I don't have any any skin of the game.
• 1:10:04
  I'm just telling people that are really interested in forensics
• 1:10:08
  and are interested in a fascinating case.
• 1:10:11
  I show this in my clandestine matter of fact, I showed a a
• 1:10:13
  piece, a bit of it this week in my class.
• 1:10:16
  And that's the the famous king in the car park about Richard
• 1:10:21
  the Third that happened in Leicester, England, a few years
• 1:10:26
  ago. His body had been lost.
• 1:10:28
  He was killed in a battle. And they found, Yeah, they
• 1:10:31
  found. Yeah.
• 1:10:34
  And they had skid steers out there and they were pulling.
• 1:10:37
  Well, you have to to pull off the asphalt and then to begin to
• 1:10:40
  dig down. This is really fragile remains.
• 1:10:42
  I urge anybody that has never heard of this case, do yourself
• 1:10:47
  a favor, look it up on YouTube. I don't know where the full
• 1:10:50
  actual original run of this thing is.
• 1:10:53
  It is absolutely fascinating if you want to, if you're
• 1:10:56
  interested in history, particularly English history,
• 1:11:03
  and just in this is a case of absolute dumb luck where they
• 1:11:08
  put shovel the dirt and almost immediately hit on human
• 1:11:13
  remains. And it turned out to be.
• 1:11:15
  Richard the Third. Richard the Third.
• 1:11:17
  Yeah, crazy. And so if you get a chance,
• 1:11:19
  yeah. And so that made me flashback to
• 1:11:21
  that, that point. So most of the time you're not
• 1:11:25
  going to use a backhoe per SE to dig in the primary site.
• 1:11:30
  You'll clear out the area around it.
• 1:11:33
  And it certainly wouldn't be used in any site I was in charge
• 1:11:36
  of because I would rather, I'd rather blister my hands and
• 1:11:40
  break the sweat and make sure that I got everything instead of
• 1:11:43
  some big chomp where they come in and just kind of dig it out.
• 1:11:46
  But that sub the surface, the surface layer, you're going to
• 1:11:50
  have to get rid of that, particularly if it's highly
• 1:11:52
  compacted, you've got grass that's growing in there, any
• 1:11:55
  kind of other flora. You want to clear that out and
• 1:11:58
  then you'll dig down. Sometimes you'll dig peripheral
• 1:12:01
  to that and kind of work your way in.
• 1:12:03
  And it's tedious. And like in the in the Valo
• 1:12:07
  case, yeah, those kids were in the were in the dirt way longer
• 1:12:13
  than a. Week Oh yeah right Oh yeah yeah
• 1:12:16
  yeah yeah they they were in there for a protracted period of
• 1:12:18
  time and JJ was remarkably well preserved of course going back
• 1:12:24
  to this idea of desecration of human remains the.
• 1:12:30
  The daughter of can't believe this now her name is literally
• 1:12:35
  flown out of my brain. That is so sad.
• 1:12:37
  I covered that forever. I remember JJ.
• 1:12:39
  JJ in Oh my goodness, I'm blanking.
• 1:12:44
  Somebody, yeah. Somebody will remember, I'm
• 1:12:46
  sure. You know, she was, her body was
• 1:12:50
  desecrated. I think that they, you know, in
• 1:12:53
  that case, I think that they were not.
• 1:12:58
  They, they were frustrated over the fact that they couldn't get
• 1:13:01
  her body fully incinerated. Somebody took, I think, a
• 1:13:03
  pickaxe, struck her in the pelvis with it or struck her
• 1:13:07
  names in the pelvis with it. Yeah, So and again.
• 1:13:10
  And then they did this, this horrible job of trying to cover
• 1:13:13
  remains and, you know, dishonouring human remains by
• 1:13:16
  being Ty Lee and. Ty Lee Ryan, Yeah.
• 1:13:19
  Thank you. Thank you very much.
• 1:13:20
  Yeah. So yeah.
• 1:13:25
  Let's see this next question is how far did the police search to
• 1:13:29
  miss the area where she was found?
• 1:13:30
  I think maybe another way to to rephrase that is some does it
• 1:13:39
  take specialized training sometimes to be able to find
• 1:13:44
  even a clandestine grave? That's that's, I guess new.
• 1:13:52
  Specialized training? No, not necessarily.
• 1:13:56
  And we, we kind of keep it very simple most of the time.
• 1:14:01
  I'm, you know, I'm an old soldier.
• 1:14:04
  I was in the Army, I went through Army training, I was in
• 1:14:07
  reserves. But you know, in the Army they
• 1:14:11
  make you do pointless things like policing an area.
• 1:14:15
  It's not pointless. They want you to go out and pick
• 1:14:17
  up trash. But this is something that
• 1:14:19
  applies in police work and investigative work.
• 1:14:21
  We will, we will literally stand shoulder to shoulder.
• 1:14:25
  And you see, you see people doing this, people doing this in
• 1:14:31
  particularly when we have remains that are found in in
• 1:14:38
  landfills walking shoulder to shoulder.
• 1:14:40
  And you're doing it step by step by step, OK.
• 1:14:45
  And then you carry markers with you, these little, they almost
• 1:14:48
  look like, have you ever seen the little flags that they use
• 1:14:51
  to mark like gas pipes on the ground, this little, you know,
• 1:14:57
  survey markers, that sort of thing.
• 1:14:59
  And they come in a variety of color.
• 1:15:01
  So if you find something, you can, you know, post that in the
• 1:15:05
  ground and then everybody freezes and you call the
• 1:15:08
  forensic anthropologist up, say, is this something you know?
• 1:15:11
  And that's kind of the way you do it.
• 1:15:13
  So you're, it's kind of a broad stroke, but you're doing kind of
• 1:15:17
  a, a micro search in your own way.
• 1:15:19
  That is if you can get everybody on board.
• 1:15:22
  Now I've worked cases where we have used police cadets, you
• 1:15:26
  know, from the police Academy. We've walked shoulder to
• 1:15:29
  shoulder with them. One of the, one of the weird
• 1:15:35
  things is I've actually worked these cases with prisoner
• 1:15:38
  trustees and will they'll bring people out there, trustees from
• 1:15:43
  the jail and, and do these recoveries and many times
• 1:15:47
  they're very good at it. They they welcome the
• 1:15:52
  opportunity to get out. And this is a.
• 1:15:54
  Horrible thing to get out with, but you know, I've worked.
• 1:15:57
  Exercise your brain a little bit.
• 1:15:59
  Yeah, yeah. OK, let's see.
• 1:16:02
  Another one came in and then I have a couple questions about
• 1:16:05
  another case for you. If Kayla was in the abandoned
• 1:16:08
  school and the school had black mold, would that be important
• 1:16:10
  forensically, especially if in her lungs?
• 1:16:15
  Only if she had been alive in there and she'd been alive in
• 1:16:18
  there for a protracted period of time in order to understand
• 1:16:22
  where you're going with that and could have gotten into her
• 1:16:26
  airway. But it would have been a matter
• 1:16:29
  of her, you know, actually inhaling, you know, taking
• 1:16:34
  breaths in there and being around the the mold if it was in
• 1:16:39
  there. It's an excellent question from
• 1:16:40
  scientific standpoint. And you know it autopsy when
• 1:16:45
  you're, you know, you're examining the airway and
• 1:16:47
  examining lungs. It's certainly something, you
• 1:16:49
  know, it, it, it could manifest, I think.
• 1:16:52
  And I don't know enough about it to speak really intelligently
• 1:16:56
  about it, but you could certainly do examinations
• 1:17:02
  microscopically and maybe look for certain presentations.
• 1:17:04
  But generally you're going to have, there's going to be a
• 1:17:07
  period of time for this to develop.
• 1:17:09
  It's like any other kind of thing that we encounter.
• 1:17:12
  You know, I was just talking about honey, you know, and those
• 1:17:15
  sorts of things, you know, to kind of knock down sinusitis and
• 1:17:18
  those sorts of things. It takes a while for that stuff
• 1:17:20
  to kind of ramp up. So, and I think this is a valid
• 1:17:23
  point too, was the school used as a as a place where where she
• 1:17:31
  may have been attacked? Can you gain access to it?
• 1:17:35
  How easy is it? I I wonder how thoroughly that
• 1:17:38
  area was would was searched as well.
• 1:17:45
  That structure, you know, it's if anything been facilitated in
• 1:17:47
  there. And you never know what other
• 1:17:49
  nefarious activities been going on in an abandoned building like
• 1:17:52
  that as well. Yeah.
• 1:17:54
  And is it is it known to those that that run in these circles?
• 1:17:58
  So I don't know. Yeah, that, that is a very good
• 1:18:01
  question. OK, I want to just briefly take
• 1:18:05
  us over to the case of Celeste Rivas Hernandez, who her body,
• 1:18:11
  her decomposing body was found in the trunk of a Tesla Model X.
• 1:18:16
  I know that you've covered this case, you've looked at this case
• 1:18:19
  a little bit. We don't really need to rehash
• 1:18:20
  it, but I have a very similar question that I told my audience
• 1:18:23
  I would ask you. And that is, I mean, this girl
• 1:18:29
  could have been in that Tesla for weeks, maybe months.
• 1:18:36
  It's very difficult to say what the timeline is it.
• 1:18:39
  It does appear at least there's been the rumblings of it.
• 1:18:42
  So we don't know that that this is another very ugly case of
• 1:18:46
  maybe she was dismembered as well in order to fold inside
• 1:18:52
  that inside that enclosed area. Would there still be forensic
• 1:18:58
  value? Would would there be evidence
• 1:19:01
  that could be collected from a a death scene like that that may
• 1:19:05
  be week, days, weeks or even months old?
• 1:19:09
  Oh, yeah, yeah, there, there would be significant value
• 1:19:14
  there. Forensically, scientifically.
• 1:19:17
  The first thing if you begin to talk about dismemberment that
• 1:19:20
  comes to mind for me is First off, you're you're going to be
• 1:19:27
  looking on surfaces of the bone in particular, you're going to
• 1:19:32
  be looking for tool marks. That's something we take very,
• 1:19:34
  very seriously in dismemberment cases.
• 1:19:37
  We will actually segment the bone and where you have
• 1:19:44
  striations on the surface of the bone, our purpose for doing that
• 1:19:47
  and we'll collect it on at like that bone will not go with the
• 1:19:52
  body when the body is released, never.
• 1:19:55
  Keep a sample. Yeah, we retain it.
• 1:19:58
  Yeah, we retain it. People think that's kind of
• 1:20:02
  ghoulish. Dave and I actually on the
• 1:20:04
  anniversary of Lizzie Borden this past, you know.
• 1:20:08
  Whenever it was August or I can't remember, you know, they,
• 1:20:11
  they brought in the skulls of both, both parents in that case.
• 1:20:17
  Can you imagine doing that today?
• 1:20:18
  And they'd rendered the skulls down.
• 1:20:20
  They'd retain those bone samples.
• 1:20:22
  And there's value in that, I think that it was used to for
• 1:20:26
  theater, you know, in the Borden case.
• 1:20:28
  But yeah, we, we retain the bone because the idea is if we can
• 1:20:33
  find something in the house or on the property that could have
• 1:20:36
  created these striations, you have to do, it's just like
• 1:20:39
  Ballistics. You have to do a comparison with
• 1:20:42
  tool mark people. People don't understand many
• 1:20:45
  times the structure of crime labs, tool mark people and
• 1:20:47
  ballistic people many times, well, they can be 1 and the
• 1:20:50
  same. There are cases in bigger labs
• 1:20:53
  or situations in bigger labs, we'll have a separate tool mark
• 1:20:57
  section from Ballistics, but they're generally kind of under
• 1:20:59
  the same roof, kind of do the same thing.
• 1:21:01
  They're looking for imprint and impression stuff.
• 1:21:04
  So that's a big thing. And then I don't think that she
• 1:21:09
  would have been if she was dismembered.
• 1:21:12
  I still, I still have yet to be able to confirm that because
• 1:21:16
  there have been these comments along the way where it doesn't
• 1:21:20
  necessarily mean it doesn't necessarily mean she was
• 1:21:25
  decomposing. I mean she was dismembered.
• 1:21:28
  I think one non specific law enforcement person made this
• 1:21:33
  comment to a reporter and it has yet to scientifically be
• 1:21:38
  verified to me and I don't believe anything the cops say.
• 1:21:41
  I want to hear it come out of the mouth of the ME coroner in
• 1:21:43
  LA County. I want to hear what they have to
• 1:21:45
  say because they're the ones doing the examination on the
• 1:21:48
  body. And most of the time that
• 1:21:50
  information is going to come to the cops from the ME.
• 1:21:53
  So I want to hear what the ME and the ME has been deathly
• 1:21:55
  quiet, no pun intended, on this particular, on this particular
• 1:22:00
  case. I feel like that pun was
• 1:22:02
  intended. Just no, it really wasn't a
• 1:22:05
  problem. I'm too tired to make funds.
• 1:22:08
  Yeah, I I, but, but I will say this, Gab The my thought is, is
• 1:22:15
  that if she was you're not going to go to the trunk, the franc or
• 1:22:20
  whatever they call this damn thing.
• 1:22:21
  I'd never heard that term before.
• 1:22:24
  You're not going to dismember a body in a franc.
• 1:22:26
  OK. Right.
• 1:22:28
  You have to have in order to do dismemberment.
• 1:22:32
  You have to have privacy. You have to have water, you have
• 1:22:38
  to have a source of electricity if you're going to use some tool
• 1:22:41
  other than a handheld saw. And I've seen people use all
• 1:22:46
  manner things that are. I've seen people try to use
• 1:22:49
  butter knives before. So you're going to have to have
• 1:22:54
  privacy to do it because you're not going to go in the backyard
• 1:22:56
  and do this. If something happened inside of
• 1:22:59
  that dwelling, there's going to be a treasure trove.
• 1:23:03
  They're not going to get everything.
• 1:23:04
  I can tell you if you go in there to clean it up because
• 1:23:07
  you're talking about when dismemberment occurs.
• 1:23:11
  Police forgive me for saying this, but people have to
• 1:23:13
  understand how this works. If if you do dismemberment just
• 1:23:18
  like when you're sawing on like a 2 by 4, what do you create
• 1:23:23
  other than the mark on the wood? Yeah, sawdust.
• 1:23:27
  Sawdust. Well, you create bone dust as
• 1:23:30
  well. It's very similar actually.
• 1:23:33
  We create it in the morgue all the time.
• 1:23:34
  You hear that high pitched saw that we use?
• 1:23:36
  It's called striker saw. It's a bone saw that we open the
• 1:23:38
  skull with. We cut bones with it, you know,
• 1:23:42
  the whole 9 yards. And it's, it's histamine like it
• 1:23:44
  goes, it goes everywhere, man. I mean, it really does.
• 1:23:48
  So there would be a remnant of that that contains DNA.
• 1:23:53
  You're also going to have what happens.
• 1:23:54
  This is kind of an interesting thing.
• 1:23:56
  When you when you do this, you have blood and even there's
• 1:24:04
  going to be blood, even if she's not alive.
• 1:24:06
  It creates almost like a paste. You can imagine what it's like
• 1:24:11
  mixing water and flour, right? So take blood and bone dust.
• 1:24:16
  It makes these little pellets many times and they're left
• 1:24:19
  behind and they're really hard to get up.
• 1:24:21
  So you'll find that. Probably pretty sticky, right
• 1:24:25
  they? They are, they are.
• 1:24:27
  And the other thing about it is, is that the stuff attracts flies
• 1:24:31
  as well because it's it's organic material, it's
• 1:24:34
  decomposed blood. Blood is is not just a
• 1:24:39
  standalone substance by itself. It's multi component.
• 1:24:42
  And so you've got RBCS, you got WBCS, you know, you there's
• 1:24:47
  multiple components of blood. All the stuff is separating is
• 1:24:50
  decomposing. All right, so you're going to
• 1:24:53
  have that issue. I, I've, I've thought about this
• 1:24:57
  case quite a bit and I'm, I'm really wondering First off, I'd
• 1:25:02
  love to know how she died. I think that's the biggest, and
• 1:25:07
  how that was facilitated. Was she actually killed in that
• 1:25:12
  house or did she die in that house?
• 1:25:14
  Let me see, how can I rephrase that?
• 1:25:19
  Did her life end in that house? I don't know what manner that
• 1:25:22
  might be. Was it trauma related?
• 1:25:25
  Was it drug related? I don't know.
• 1:25:27
  Did she have a heart attack? You know, at that age?
• 1:25:29
  Probably not. And if she died in that house,
• 1:25:35
  how did her how did her death come about?
• 1:25:39
  How did it come about? Frenchie has wanted.
• 1:25:42
  To Hey Frenchie. We you know, you think about you
• 1:25:51
  think about how this was facilitated in this home and
• 1:25:56
  why, why, why this car? And here's kind of an an
• 1:26:02
  interesting aside about this was that was her body in the house
• 1:26:09
  decomposing and they just couldn't take it anymore.
• 1:26:15
  The the body is removed from the house, placed in the trunk, held
• 1:26:22
  in stasis in the trunk inside the garage.
• 1:26:25
  Can't take it anymore. So then you take the car, back
• 1:26:29
  it out and move it down, move it down the street, OK, from that
• 1:26:35
  location. And I don't know if you guys
• 1:26:38
  have ever been to this area in Hollywood Hills.
• 1:26:43
  I am, I don't move into circles, but I'm friends with with this
• 1:26:47
  guy that won an Academy Award. That's a documentary guy.
• 1:26:50
  And I stayed in a house like right by Chateau Marmont.
• 1:26:54
  And it was, this is within I think 2 miles of Chateau
• 1:26:57
  Marmont. The people that live there are
• 1:27:00
  like the Jimmy Kimmel's of the world.
• 1:27:02
  He literally lives in this area. These people, these people do
• 1:27:08
  not abide having beaters out on the street.
• 1:27:10
  And you're talking about a car that's.
• 1:27:11
  Damaged things covered dust. Dust and all that sort of thing.
• 1:27:16
  I'm surprised that no one took notice of it.
• 1:27:19
  People walk their dogs around there.
• 1:27:21
  I'm really shocked that maybe someone didn't smell this.
• 1:27:27
  And. Didn't detect it, yeah.
• 1:27:29
  Yeah. So those are those are several
• 1:27:31
  questions. And if you've got a decomposing
• 1:27:33
  body that's been moved, OK, First off, you've got trauma
• 1:27:39
  that might be associated with a death.
• 1:27:41
  You've got post mortem trauma that might be associated with a
• 1:27:44
  dismemberment. Then you've got decompositional
• 1:27:47
  remnant in maybe multiple locations.
• 1:27:51
  I don't know, I, you know, it kind of baffles mind and, and
• 1:27:54
  they've gone radio silent on the case.
• 1:27:56
  And I think that some of it has to do with the status of her
• 1:28:02
  body where I don't even know if they were able to detox.
• 1:28:08
  I've heard several things about status of her body that gave me
• 1:28:11
  an impression that it wasn't as far along as some people have
• 1:28:15
  opined. And then I've heard other people
• 1:28:17
  say that it was in a really advanced state of decomposition.
• 1:28:21
  So I don't know, I mean, and I can't imagine this thing is
• 1:28:25
  going to be remain radio silent for for longer.
• 1:28:30
  Yeah, I I wondered about that. I had wondered if they're
• 1:28:34
  waiting on talks that could be a month or two, but.
• 1:28:37
  Yeah, but we've gone, we've gone down that road.
• 1:28:40
  And if she is, if she was decomposed, and I'll go ahead.
• 1:28:44
  And this is kind of a little insight into forensics.
• 1:28:47
  I'll, you know, I'll let you guys know, know this as well.
• 1:28:51
  What do, what do we do with decomposed bodies?
• 1:28:53
  We're trying to detox. OK, People ask that question.
• 1:28:57
  There's a couple places we go. Sometimes blood will be in such
• 1:29:04
  an advanced state that it's non viable to do tox screening with.
• 1:29:10
  Sometimes if you have a bladder with that contains urine, a
• 1:29:16
  significant sample, we will we can draw that up so we can get
• 1:29:20
  out of there. We'll go to the eyes and draw
• 1:29:23
  out vitreous, which is yeah. And it's very non specific.
• 1:29:28
  You can't really get a what's called a quantitative amount in
• 1:29:32
  there, but you can get a qualitative amount.
• 1:29:34
  It's almost like reading the rings on a tree, you know, where
• 1:29:37
  you can see drought and an over abundance of water, you know,
• 1:29:40
  that sort of thing. You can say that something's
• 1:29:42
  present. The other thing that we do with
• 1:29:44
  advanced decomp is we'll take sections of liver and brain, put
• 1:29:50
  them in a centrifuge, spin them down, liquefy them, and we'll
• 1:29:53
  draw those up. And we can again qualitatively
• 1:29:57
  say that yes, there is drug X here, OK.
• 1:30:01
  But again, you can't quantify it.
• 1:30:03
  And that's one of the big questions I had some people ask
• 1:30:06
  me on some news platform at some point in time they wanted to,
• 1:30:09
  could this been a drug OD? At this point, I don't know that
• 1:30:14
  you would be able to calibrate your instrumentation to the
• 1:30:17
  point where you could come up with a quantitative amount to
• 1:30:20
  say, because with every drug that's out there, even illicit
• 1:30:23
  drugs, folks don't realize this. Even with illicit drugs, did you
• 1:30:30
  know there is actually what's referred to as a therapeutic
• 1:30:33
  range? So you can have heroin, you can
• 1:30:36
  have heroin and they will say, well, it's within the
• 1:30:40
  therapeutic range. And many times what they mean by
• 1:30:43
  that, but they're not saying in the report is that your status
• 1:30:48
  is still compatible with life. There's not enough on board to
• 1:30:50
  kill you. So it's within therapy.
• 1:30:52
  I see. But when you get off into when
• 1:30:58
  you get off into some of these other pharm, you know,
• 1:31:01
  pharmacology into some of these other prescribed drugs, you
• 1:31:06
  know, there we have regular clinical ranges that we look for
• 1:31:11
  and it can be very broad, broad spectrum.
• 1:31:13
  So sorry, I didn't mean to go. To that road, but I'm I'm going
• 1:31:16
  to I'm going to open up Pandora's box.
• 1:31:19
  You've already already been very generous with your time, but I
• 1:31:24
  just want to get your quick take on the report that came out in
• 1:31:29
  the Alan Greenberg case. Vomit inducing.
• 1:31:35
  That's, that's my, I felt I'll, I felt I'll afterwards.
• 1:31:41
  And I think the, the other thing that really kind of drove it
• 1:31:48
  home is that they went so far to, to make note of other
• 1:31:56
  injuries that she allegedly discovered, you know, more
• 1:32:02
  contusions, more sharp force injuries.
• 1:32:07
  And yet here we are, you know, and it, it doesn't, it doesn't,
• 1:32:16
  it doesn't matter what I think. What what matters is how it's
• 1:32:20
  impacting Sandy and Josh, you know, at the end of the day,
• 1:32:25
  because my, you know, I and you're, you're more vested than
• 1:32:29
  I am, my friend. I know that.
• 1:32:31
  But I've been, I've been covering it for so long and my
• 1:32:40
  heart just breaks for him. I mean it really does.
• 1:32:44
  And I think the the real downside of this is that this is
• 1:32:49
  not a judicial finding. This is a medical legal finding.
• 1:32:53
  Who you going to appeal to? There is no court.
• 1:32:56
  Exactly. I wish everybody understood
• 1:32:59
  that. Yeah, I think a lot of people
• 1:33:01
  say, well, you, you know, we'll go back to court.
• 1:33:04
  This is This is. There isn't.
• 1:33:08
  This is not something I think if there is any kind of judicial
• 1:33:13
  relief, if you will, Maybe that's not the right
• 1:33:16
  terminology. I don't know in this thing it
• 1:33:19
  it's going to be found in the civil realm.
• 1:33:21
  Maybe unless unless someone had metaphorically hasn't come to
• 1:33:28
  Jesus moment and you know says, you know, I confess to this or
• 1:33:37
  something like that is going to happen.
• 1:33:39
  I, I don't necessarily see a way forward.
• 1:33:42
  The answer is certainly not Dog the Bounty Hunter, which made my
• 1:33:48
  which made my toes curl when I, you know, where were you, you
• 1:33:53
  know, all these years ago. And that's that's another kettle
• 1:33:58
  of fish, as they say. But well, when I talked with
• 1:34:00
  Josh and Sandy, they they said they felt punched in the gut,
• 1:34:04
  but they didn't expect anything else out of Philadelphia.
• 1:34:09
  No, and I, I wouldn't either. I think that some people have
• 1:34:13
  hoped and I and I've been trying to maybe you can help me with
• 1:34:18
  this because I've had people say, well, let's get the feds
• 1:34:25
  involved in it. OK, well how are the feds going
• 1:34:28
  to enter into this? Well, the only way I could
• 1:34:30
  really see the feds coming into this, if there's some kind of
• 1:34:36
  provable, potentially provable malfeasance in office, that's
• 1:34:41
  really the only, only way. That's all I've come to.
• 1:34:44
  Yeah. And I just I just.
• 1:34:47
  If there's provable public corruption that that, you know,
• 1:34:52
  members of, well, not just the city of Philadelphia, but the
• 1:34:56
  state of Pennsylvania, I mean, this went up to the attorney
• 1:34:58
  general's office if they were approvable.
• 1:35:01
  And the attorney general, by the way, everybody probably already
• 1:35:04
  knows, is now the governor of our state, a person who
• 1:35:06
  apparently has beef with me because he disinvites me every
• 1:35:10
  time he's in my area to any event pretty funny.
• 1:35:14
  But yeah, there there has to be some kind of public corruption
• 1:35:18
  in order to get. Yeah, that's that's really.
• 1:35:21
  Or from a criminal. Standpoint.
• 1:35:23
  Yeah, I'm sorry. Go.
• 1:35:24
  Ahead if if they could find some kind of if they could find some
• 1:35:32
  kind of evidence of a cover up that used, you know,
• 1:35:37
  communication facilities that may have passed over state lines
• 1:35:41
  like emails and texts would all bounce all around all all sorts
• 1:35:45
  of different servers and and routers and stuff so maybe there
• 1:35:48
  but. I don't know if you're, if
• 1:35:50
  you're looking at that, you know, we've already not to say
• 1:35:54
  anything nefarious was done. But when you're having closed
• 1:35:57
  door meetings with the me and you know, with prosecutors and
• 1:36:03
  cops and there's no to the best of my knowledge, there's no
• 1:36:06
  documentation that meeting but status of the case has changed.
• 1:36:12
  You know, that's problematic. And I don't, you know, because
• 1:36:16
  I've been around politicians long enough to know what they
• 1:36:18
  will and will not write down. And you know, what's what?
• 1:36:23
  What will there be a record of? I here's the thing about it.
• 1:36:27
  I don't know. And this is very sad commentary.
• 1:36:30
  I don't know. I don't know what kind of
• 1:36:33
  appetite the feds would have for it to take it on.
• 1:36:39
  And then and I think that there's always been a smattering
• 1:36:45
  of politicism. I'm probably understating that,
• 1:36:47
  Gavin. But then Ellen's case truly does
• 1:36:52
  become a political football at that point in time because
• 1:36:55
  that's what, that's what, that's the road that you're that you're
• 1:36:58
  headed down, you know, with that.
• 1:37:00
  Yeah, I'm I'm curious what Joe and Will will do the attorneys
• 1:37:04
  for the Greenbergs. When I attended the the hearing
• 1:37:08
  with Judge Carpenter, Joe had a little twinkle in his eye.
• 1:37:12
  He and and Judge Carpenter was Even so we're done with this
• 1:37:17
  right. We probably will see each other
• 1:37:19
  again was kind of what she was, she was, you know, hinting at.
• 1:37:24
  So we'll see what happens there. And but yeah, that the
• 1:37:29
  unfortunate thing about it is that a medical examiner's
• 1:37:34
  opinion is his or her opinion, and there is no appeal anywhere.
• 1:37:38
  No, there's no, there's no power to or there's no process to
• 1:37:43
  appeal to with that. I mean, you can, you know, I
• 1:37:47
  suppose you can take them to court, but that remedy has
• 1:37:51
  already been sought. And I think that even if you had
• 1:37:56
  a judge that might be favorable to to want to hear, they're
• 1:38:01
  going to look at it. And I think that even their
• 1:38:03
  colleagues or maybe the chief chief judge in whatever
• 1:38:06
  district, you know, it's going to raise the eyebrow over this,
• 1:38:08
  said, we've covered this territory before, have we not?
• 1:38:12
  And I, you know, I don't, I don't know where Josh is saying
• 1:38:17
  to go, you know, from here. I really, I really don't.
• 1:38:20
  And I don't, I don't normally get vested in cases that much,
• 1:38:25
  you know, because I cover so many of them.
• 1:38:27
  Man, I do. But yeah, I mean too much and I
• 1:38:31
  hate, I hate to say that I've, I've, you know, there's only a
• 1:38:34
  certain amount of passion I have and I try to reserve that for my
• 1:38:36
  family of passion and love. And, and, but with this case in
• 1:38:42
  particular, you know, I see myself and myself and my wife
• 1:38:48
  and Josh and Sandy shoes with our kids.
• 1:38:51
  I think a lot of parents have, you know, it's not just me.
• 1:38:54
  I'm not doing that in isolation, that I'm not some paragon.
• 1:38:58
  A lot of people do because it's really tugs at your heartstrings
• 1:39:01
  as a parent. This is our only child.
• 1:39:03
  Not that it would be any less woeful if they had, you know, a
• 1:39:07
  whole. Ten children.
• 1:39:09
  Yeah, yeah, it's still your baby.
• 1:39:11
  But it also means they, you know, they had dreams of being
• 1:39:15
  grandparents and they had dreams of all sorts of things that were
• 1:39:19
  that were stolen from them. They just snatched right out of
• 1:39:21
  them. So, yeah.
• 1:39:24
  Well, man, thanks for your, thanks for your comments.
• 1:39:26
  Thanks for your time. I really appreciate it.
• 1:39:30
  And it's always fun to have you on.
• 1:39:33
  Oh, I love joining you guys. Your, your, your family here is,
• 1:39:39
  is always so generous and so kind to me and I, I, I
• 1:39:43
  appreciate, you know, being on the air with you guys and, and
• 1:39:47
  chatting. I love to chat.
• 1:39:49
  You know, I can't keep my mouth shut most of the time.
• 1:39:53
  But yeah, because I like to educate people on forensics.
• 1:39:55
  That's what my, I hate to say passion is, but it's what my
• 1:39:58
  kind of my purpose in life is always.
• 1:40:00
  You do. Yeah, it is.
• 1:40:02
  It's who I am. And I, I don't, I'm, I'm very
• 1:40:07
  blessed and fortunate in the sense that I've had an
• 1:40:09
  opportunity to have a career in forensics.
• 1:40:11
  I have been educated in forensics and I teach forensics.
• 1:40:15
  And many people that are interested in true crime, they
• 1:40:17
  don't have that opportunity. You know, they go out and they
• 1:40:19
  do really hard jobs. And my job is not hard anymore.
• 1:40:23
  And so I have, this is like the one gift that I can give to
• 1:40:27
  people just in my education might not be the best for the
• 1:40:31
  people that are out there, but I try my own little way to
• 1:40:33
  contribute that way. And plus, to try to, you know,
• 1:40:36
  dispel like ignorance, you know, you know, if I can and have a
• 1:40:42
  good time while we're doing it, because science is fun, man.
• 1:40:45
  Well, before we go, let's do a quick plug.
• 1:40:47
  I mean, Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan is anywhere you get
• 1:40:51
  podcasts, right? Yeah, yeah, it's, it's on all
• 1:40:54
  platforms of I, I do. I don't know if any anybody in
• 1:40:58
  the audience has been listening to True Crime Tonight radio.
• 1:41:02
  It's. How's that going?
• 1:41:05
  It's going great. I really enjoy it up here.
• 1:41:07
  Every Sunday night we do Scientific Sundays, and so the
• 1:41:14
  ladies on the panel will ask me scientific questions.
• 1:41:16
  And just so you know, it's on iHeartRadio.
• 1:41:20
  And so we're on terrestrial radio shows, stations live.
• 1:41:23
  You can actually call in and chat with us.
• 1:41:26
  They do DMS and messages and that sort of thing.
• 1:41:30
  So yeah, yeah. And check out, check out our
• 1:41:32
  program if you've got kids that are coming up and, and you're
• 1:41:35
  thinking about sending them to a great safe campus that has a
• 1:41:39
  real family atmosphere. It's very inexpensive.
• 1:41:43
  Check out Jacksonville State University in Jacksonville, AL,
• 1:41:46
  not Florida. We're in the foothills of the
• 1:41:48
  Appalachian Mountains. Beautiful campus.
• 1:41:50
  And we have got arguably one of the best forensic investigation
• 1:41:54
  programs in the country. I have now, as of this semester,
• 1:41:58
  I have now a gross anatomy lab where I bring my undergraduate
• 1:42:02
  students in and we're doing a dissection on a human cadaver
• 1:42:05
  through the entirety of of the semester.
• 1:42:08
  And so we're very proud of that. We have crime scene house, blood
• 1:42:13
  deposition lab, trace evidence lab, and all our kids go in
• 1:42:16
  there and learn. So it's a great environment to
• 1:42:19
  be in. Yeah, yeah, I love it.
• 1:42:20
  Absolutely love. It all right well, thank you for
• 1:42:22
  joining us and if you'll stick around for just one second while
• 1:42:25
  I out for this thing, I'll be right back with you.
• 1:42:28
  OK guys again. I mean, I can't even tell you
• 1:42:32
  how how grateful I am that Joseph will join us and talk
• 1:42:35
  about these cases that we talked about here on the channel.
• 1:42:38
  Check out body bags with Joseph Scott Morgan, wherever you
• 1:42:41
  listen to podcast. You can reach me at
• 1:42:43
  gavinfish.com. If you're on Facebook, just
• 1:42:46
  search Gavin fish, look for the fish tank.
• 1:42:48
  That's where we hang out on Facebook.
• 1:42:50
  You're always, always welcome there.
• 1:42:52
  Big shout out to my mods who keep everything classy and
• 1:42:56
  awesome. Thank you all for working so
• 1:42:59
  hard and thanks for your comments.
• 1:43:00
  We didn't get to very many tonight, but it's because we can
• 1:43:04
  just go so deep in the conversation and learning about
• 1:43:08
  these cases from a forensic perspective.
• 1:43:11
  So with that, I will bid you adieu.
• 1:43:14
  Thank you very much for being here and I will see you in a no
• 1:43:17
  show tomorrow because it's Halloween.
• 1:43:18
  So I will see you on Monday. Take care.
• 1:43:21
  Thank you very much for watching this video.
• 1:43:24
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• 1:43:27
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• 1:43:30
  below.