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BONUS EPISODE: The Psychology Of Saving · She's On The Money

0:00
Speaker 1: Hello.
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Speaker 2: My name's Santasha Nabananga Bamblet. I'm a proud your the Order,
0:05
Speaker 2: Kernie Whoalbury and a waddery woman. And before we get
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Speaker 2: started on She's on the Money podcast, I would like
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Speaker 2: to acknowledge the traditional custodians of the land of which
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Speaker 2: this podcast is recorded on a wondery country, acknowledging the elders,
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Speaker 2: the ancestors and the next generation coming through as this
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Speaker 2: podcast is about connecting, empowering, knowledge sharing and the storytelling
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Speaker 2: of you to make a difference for today and lasting
0:31
Speaker 2: impact for tomorrow.
0:33
Speaker 1: Let's get into it.
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Speaker 3: She's on the Money, She's on the Money.
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Speaker 4: Hello, and welcome to were Bone episode of She's on
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Speaker 4: the Money, the podcast for millennials who want financial freedom.
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Speaker 4: My name is Victoria Devine and today we have a
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Speaker 4: very special bonus episode of the show that is looking
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Speaker 4: at the psychology of savings and we also have a
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Speaker 4: very special guest, my friend. Doctor Lillly Susman is a
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Speaker 4: social scientist and the chief strategy officer at Wiser. Lily's
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Speaker 4: PhD research at Harvard University was on decision making, behavioral
1:31
Speaker 4: economics and psychology, and foreign policy. Decision making Throughout her career,
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Speaker 4: Lily has been guided by a purpose to understand and
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Speaker 4: address profound human flourishing, including financial, relational, and psychological wellbeing.
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Speaker 4: She is supporting Australians to make effective and incremental changes
1:49
Speaker 4: in aligning everyday money behaviors to deeper values. And I
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Speaker 4: cannot think of something that aligns more to She's on
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Speaker 4: the money than doctor Lily Susman. As Chief Strategy Officer,
2:00
Speaker 4: Lily conceptualized wiser Today from scratch and we are or
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Speaker 4: I am super thrilled to have her here with us today.
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Speaker 1: Lily, welcome to the show.
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Speaker 5: Oh thank you, Victoria. You know that I'm a massive
2:13
Speaker 5: fan of this community. I'm super passionate about what we're
2:17
Speaker 5: talking about and everything this community cares about. So it's
2:21
Speaker 5: really wonderful to be here today talking with you about
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Speaker 5: financial health.
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Speaker 4: I feel like I am so excited to welcome you
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Speaker 4: to the show because this might sound really new to
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Speaker 4: everybody listening, but you have been slaving away over this
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Speaker 4: for literally years and I even got the opportunity to
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Speaker 4: sign an NDA and be brought into the loop literally
2:41
Speaker 4: more than a year ago to talk to you about this,
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Speaker 4: and you know, play a little role in it, and
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Speaker 4: I'm just so glad that it is launched, and I'm
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Speaker 4: just honestly so excited because I one hundred percent identify
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Speaker 4: with everything that drives you so lily. Let's start off
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Speaker 4: with money stress. You describe money and financial stress, says quote,
3:00
Speaker 4: one of the last taboos. Why do you think it's
3:03
Speaker 4: still so hard for us to open up about financial
3:06
Speaker 4: stress or talk about money with our friends and family?
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Speaker 6: Oh yeah, such a good question. Money is such a
3:12
Speaker 6: big taboo in our culture.
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Speaker 5: National surveys have shown that we're actually more comfortable talking
3:18
Speaker 5: with our friends about virtually anything else, like politics, religion,
3:23
Speaker 5: even you know, things like addiction, race, marital discord, sex.
3:28
Speaker 5: We'd actually go to great length to avoid the subject.
3:32
Speaker 5: There was a survey done that showed that almost a
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Speaker 5: third of us would rather sit through two hours of
3:38
Speaker 5: traffic or speak in front of a large audience than
3:41
Speaker 5: have to discuss this taboo subject of money. And it's
3:45
Speaker 5: crazy because the average person is secretly worrying about it
3:49
Speaker 5: multiple times a day, and the evidence shows that nearly
3:52
Speaker 5: half of Australians are regularly stressing about money. But it's
3:56
Speaker 5: just so awkward to bring up, right, Imagine one minute
3:58
Speaker 5: you're with friends and you're laughing over drinks, and then
4:02
Speaker 5: the next minute someone brings up the cost of the
4:05
Speaker 5: evening out or their savings plan, and the mood just like, ooh,
4:09
Speaker 5: just plants and chill.
4:11
Speaker 1: Not in my house, my friend, never not in my house.
4:14
Speaker 4: I feel like it's funny because you said people would
4:16
Speaker 4: rather the sit in traffic, and the community you're talking
4:19
Speaker 4: to right now literally sit in traffic and listen to
4:21
Speaker 4: money podcasts. So we might not be able to super
4:24
Speaker 4: resonate with that, but I feel like every other Australian,
4:27
Speaker 4: though that's not in the ses on the money community
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Speaker 4: is like I would literally rather the sit in traffic,
4:32
Speaker 4: and then our community like, oh, when we're sitting in traffic,
4:34
Speaker 4: that's what we're doing exactly.
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Speaker 5: But that's what makes this community so special, right because
4:40
Speaker 5: we're together breaking the taboo. But I think, you know,
4:43
Speaker 5: the surveys around the average person and their level of
4:48
Speaker 5: comfort talking about money socially is very, very low, and
4:52
Speaker 5: it's so awkward and it feels hard to talk about
4:56
Speaker 5: because you know, we live in a society where sometimes
4:59
Speaker 5: we're made to feel like or we have this implicit
5:03
Speaker 5: norm that our self worth is somehow related or even
5:07
Speaker 5: based on how much money we have, how rich we look.
5:10
Speaker 5: And there's a lot of shame still around not having
5:13
Speaker 5: as much money as those around us, fearing that we're
5:16
Speaker 5: somehow maybe not as valued or we don't belong if
5:19
Speaker 5: we can't keep up financially, and just makes it hard
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Speaker 5: to talk about with friends, whether you're the friend with
5:26
Speaker 5: more money or the friend with less money.
5:28
Speaker 1: Why do you think we still like that?
5:30
Speaker 6: Though?
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Speaker 4: I just genuinely, you know, obviously I'm in a very
5:34
Speaker 4: privileged position, but like, why is it still so awkward?
5:37
Speaker 1: Like why are we feeling this way?
5:39
Speaker 6: Yeah, it's such a good question.
5:40
Speaker 5: I just think there's this implicit norm that we've been
5:43
Speaker 5: raised with, right, that money equals worse.
5:46
Speaker 6: But it's not.
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Speaker 5: And I think there's also this second hidden norm that
5:51
Speaker 5: somehow we're sort of responsible for how we're doing financially,
5:55
Speaker 5: like it's our fault if things aren't going well. But actually,
5:59
Speaker 5: you know, both externally and internally externally, there are systemic
6:03
Speaker 5: reasons outside of our control. And you know, there are
6:08
Speaker 5: things like the gender pay gap, the things you talk
6:10
Speaker 5: about a lot, the fact that more women do caring professions,
6:12
Speaker 5: which often pay less challenges from the changing recroeconomic environment
6:16
Speaker 5: are family histories, unexpected stuff like COVID, job loss, separation, illness.
6:22
Speaker 5: You know, so many things happen to us we don't
6:24
Speaker 5: control that they can impact our financial lives. And then internally,
6:29
Speaker 5: we were never taught about money habits or the psychology
6:32
Speaker 5: behind them, and so our money behaviors are typically an
6:35
Speaker 5: autopilot and they're not our fault because of the way
6:39
Speaker 5: our brains work, and so we have to experience sort
6:43
Speaker 5: of modeling through all of that, and we're often blaming
6:47
Speaker 5: ourselves unfairly, feeling embarrassed, feeling responsible. And who wants to
6:52
Speaker 5: talk about that with friends?
6:53
Speaker 6: I mean, I do you do? We need to? It's
6:56
Speaker 6: so important, I do.
6:58
Speaker 4: We're really cool though, we are so cool. I feel
7:00
Speaker 4: like we excelled at school and had no friends and
7:03
Speaker 4: this is where we've ended up.
7:06
Speaker 1: And that's how we found each other.
7:10
Speaker 5: Well, you know what, I think not having friends earlier,
7:14
Speaker 5: when we.
7:14
Speaker 1: Were nerding, I was busy building this.
7:17
Speaker 5: You know, what's never too late. And I think you're
7:19
Speaker 5: an expert connector and you're you know, this is a
7:22
Speaker 5: community where people belong.
7:24
Speaker 6: And can break the taboo.
7:26
Speaker 5: And I think the antidote to that money being taboo
7:30
Speaker 5: is so key because you know, we all say the
7:34
Speaker 5: truth will set you free, right, And we're also hardwired
7:37
Speaker 5: as social beings for connection and belonging, so we don't
7:41
Speaker 5: want to struggle in silence privately, but we have to
7:46
Speaker 5: just recognize there is still this taboo that money somehow
7:50
Speaker 5: equates with worth, and that we unfairly blame ourselves, and
7:54
Speaker 5: it's just really important to see start seeing money differently,
7:58
Speaker 5: that you know, it's a recent to live life how
8:01
Speaker 5: we want and that's all it is, and we can
8:04
Speaker 5: change it and.
8:05
Speaker 6: Make it better. Yeah.
8:06
Speaker 4: No, absolutely, you touched on something before that I obviously
8:09
Speaker 4: hop on about in our community. You said it might
8:12
Speaker 4: be how we grew up, and a really big part
8:15
Speaker 4: of the shoes on the money messages sharing the importance
8:17
Speaker 4: of really understanding deeply your money story and then making
8:21
Speaker 4: decisions that really align with your values. I feel like
8:23
Speaker 4: my community's heard me say that a million times. I
8:26
Speaker 4: feel like every question I get asked, I'm like, well,
8:28
Speaker 4: it depends on your values. And then when money stories
8:31
Speaker 4: are introduced to us, we seem to be shook by
8:33
Speaker 4: this concept because we've never heard of it before.
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Speaker 1: So like, why do you think that is?
8:38
Speaker 4: And why do you think that not many of us
8:41
Speaker 4: know how important our money stories are to understand deeply.
8:45
Speaker 5: Yeah, you know, psychology and managing our health and behavior,
8:51
Speaker 5: they're so foundational to our well being, but they're not
8:56
Speaker 5: taught in school at all, and exploring our values and
9:00
Speaker 5: our behavior in the psychology behind them is just not
9:03
Speaker 5: something we naturally do, right, And we just talked about
9:07
Speaker 5: how money is still taboo for so many of us
9:10
Speaker 5: and hushed up and the culture has completely misrepresented money
9:14
Speaker 5: as about being about numbers, you know, so what would
9:19
Speaker 5: you know our beliefs, emotions, or values have to do
9:22
Speaker 5: with it? You know, if you want to get on
9:24
Speaker 5: top of your finances, the things that were and often
9:29
Speaker 5: still are considered necessary are things like knowledge and practical skills.
9:33
Speaker 6: Like people talk.
9:34
Speaker 5: About budgeting, spending less, saving more, investing, growing your wealth.
9:38
Speaker 6: Here's how you do it.
9:39
Speaker 5: But the problem is that knowledge is necessary but not
9:44
Speaker 5: sufficient for behavior change. So when we're struggling or we
9:48
Speaker 5: want to do better, we're used to thinking, Okay, well,
9:50
Speaker 5: what more information do I need, rather than going and
9:53
Speaker 5: try to figure out what's causing to struggle, Like what's
9:57
Speaker 5: actually underneath what I makesperiencing and what's the real solution.
10:02
Speaker 6: The real solution is always around.
10:06
Speaker 5: It's not about being more rational or more massy, or
10:10
Speaker 5: getting more money knowledge. It's actually about getting clear on
10:14
Speaker 5: our psychology and our habits and the underlying stuff that's
10:19
Speaker 5: happening in our brains that's behind it all. So we
10:22
Speaker 5: need to understand the context that's creating the behaviors and
10:26
Speaker 5: the feelings, and we need to get into our values
10:30
Speaker 5: and money stories, none of which happens on its own, right.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, never, We just are not taught to do that.
10:36
Speaker 5: We don't do that in every day lives. So it's
10:38
Speaker 5: no surprise that we don't understand money. We don't understand
10:42
Speaker 5: why we're managing and spending money and thinking about money.
10:46
Speaker 6: The way that we do.
10:47
Speaker 5: But luckily, there's more and more conversations like this one
10:50
Speaker 5: in our culture that's really having an impact, and there's
10:53
Speaker 5: growing recognition of why is it that our values in
10:57
Speaker 5: our psychology is so important and what's the relationship between
11:00
Speaker 5: you know, what we see when we open up our
11:02
Speaker 5: banking appter transaction balances, and our habits which are often hidden,
11:07
Speaker 5: and then psychology underneath that.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's crazy.
11:10
Speaker 4: I feel like so many of us have grown up
11:13
Speaker 4: with this underlying assumption that one dollar plus two dollars
11:16
Speaker 4: equals three dollars, and that's how money works. And really
11:20
Speaker 4: it's actually about behaviors and thoughts and feelings and the
11:24
Speaker 4: transactions that those dollars create. That's what money is about.
11:28
Speaker 4: I just think so many times we just think about
11:30
Speaker 4: the actual coins or the actual notes, and that's actually
11:33
Speaker 4: not what money is. In our society, it drives so
11:36
Speaker 4: many different things. And we know, or I know deeply
11:40
Speaker 4: that you are so wildly passionate about the brain and
11:43
Speaker 4: psychology and behavioral change, and you mentioned it just before,
11:46
Speaker 4: so I want to know, like, how do we change
11:48
Speaker 4: our habits? How do we actually do this because so
11:51
Speaker 4: many of us find it so hard?
11:53
Speaker 1: Why?
11:54
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, well, you know, I think that's such an
11:57
Speaker 5: important question, not just in you know, our area of
12:00
Speaker 5: financial health, but of course health overall, right, and preventive health.
12:03
Speaker 5: Behavior change is a holy grail of preventive health. And
12:07
Speaker 5: the thing about behavior change is that.
12:09
Speaker 6: It's definitely possible, but it's not easy. It doesn't happen naturally.
12:12
Speaker 5: So our brains are designed to conserve energy and create
12:16
Speaker 5: routines so that we're not constantly making unnecessary decisions, right,
12:21
Speaker 5: and that means our brains are designed to go on autopilot.
12:24
Speaker 5: So that's what habits are, things that we do without
12:26
Speaker 5: thinking too much about them, and that is not our fault.
12:29
Speaker 5: It's literally how our brains are designed and have evolved.
12:33
Speaker 5: But most of us do have habits that we've developed from.
12:36
Speaker 6: The past that are on autopilot.
12:39
Speaker 5: And they may have been shaped over years or decades,
12:41
Speaker 5: but they may no longer be helpful to us and
12:44
Speaker 5: we can't really see that. And every habit that we
12:48
Speaker 5: have is a habit we have in real life.
12:51
Speaker 6: It happens to.
12:51
Speaker 5: Be that we spend money on this habit, but you know,
12:54
Speaker 5: it's a habit that is in the context of our lives,
12:56
Speaker 5: like you know, whether it's takeaway or taking uber or
13:00
Speaker 5: online shopping. You know, every habit that we have typically
13:05
Speaker 5: adds up to hundreds or thousands, or even ten thousands
13:08
Speaker 5: in the course of a year. So for example, like
13:11
Speaker 5: a very common habit like to lattes a day adds
13:14
Speaker 5: up to over three thousand dollars a year, or one
13:18
Speaker 5: hundred dollars of takeaway a week adds up to over
13:20
Speaker 5: five thousand dollars a year, and very easily online shopping
13:24
Speaker 5: habits might add up to fifteen thousand dollars a year. Right, So,
13:28
Speaker 5: a couple of small habitual behaviors that are on autopilot
13:31
Speaker 5: that are mostly hidden to us because they're designed that
13:35
Speaker 5: way by our brains is actually the difference between having
13:38
Speaker 5: a healthy buffer and low stress and having a lot
13:41
Speaker 5: of financial stress and maybe feeling overwhelmed. So I think
13:45
Speaker 5: the first starting point is understanding that established habits we
13:49
Speaker 5: have are not our.
13:49
Speaker 6: Fault, right, that's how our brains design them.
13:53
Speaker 5: But if we want to see more clearly what those
13:55
Speaker 5: habits are and then change them, we have to go
13:58
Speaker 5: through a deliberate behavior change process. And behavior change is
14:04
Speaker 5: not impossible, as I said in Thinking, but it's not
14:06
Speaker 5: easy because we can do it when we're supported, and
14:10
Speaker 5: we do it using the right methodology, which is working
14:13
Speaker 5: with how the brain likes to change.
14:15
Speaker 6: So we have established.
14:17
Speaker 5: Neural pathways, and we have habitual thoughts and emotional responses
14:20
Speaker 5: that are mostly unseen to us, and we can start
14:24
Speaker 5: building new alternative neural pathways and changing our automatic thoughts
14:29
Speaker 5: and emotions. If we start working with a brain in
14:31
Speaker 5: the right way. We have to go through a process
14:34
Speaker 5: of frequent but enjoyable practice, you know, build a new
14:38
Speaker 5: neural pathway that ends in the right kind of dopamine hit.
14:40
Speaker 5: And that's what we've been working on, and that's something
14:43
Speaker 5: that technology can actually help with in order to give
14:48
Speaker 5: you that easy practice on a daily basis or frequent
14:51
Speaker 5: basis that makes behavior change much easier. So I think
14:55
Speaker 5: the overall point is just it's not going to happen naturally.
14:58
Speaker 5: You know, we're not designed to to change our behavior naturally.
15:02
Speaker 6: But can it be done. Absolutely, it can be.
15:04
Speaker 4: You mentioned before, like their habits that were formed that
15:07
Speaker 4: might not be serving us anymore. And I feel like
15:09
Speaker 4: in our community, something that we're all really good at.
15:13
Speaker 4: We don't want to admit this though, but we're really
15:14
Speaker 4: good at is kind of crucifying ourselves for the habits
15:18
Speaker 4: that we have. We're like, oh, my gosh, I'm so silly,
15:20
Speaker 4: or I'm so dumb, or I cannot believe I did this.
15:22
Speaker 1: Oh it's the worst, and we bury our heads in
15:25
Speaker 1: the sand.
15:26
Speaker 4: And I say that in a way that isn't me
15:28
Speaker 4: going this is what my community does, Like I do
15:31
Speaker 4: it too. I feel like it's innately human to always
15:34
Speaker 4: crucify past us for decisions we made when we didn't
15:38
Speaker 4: have the tools in resources available to us to make
15:40
Speaker 4: the decision that we would have today. But from your perspective, like,
15:44
Speaker 4: you're literally a doctor in this space. You are one
15:47
Speaker 4: of the smartest women I have ever met. Talk to
15:51
Speaker 4: me about how important it is to have a level
15:54
Speaker 4: of self compassion for yourself, and like, how do we
15:56
Speaker 4: know when to be tough but also when to be
15:59
Speaker 4: really cl mind to ourselves, because I think that we're
16:02
Speaker 4: really bad at doing that sometimes, just as the human race,
16:06
Speaker 4: like not even just as women or just as you know,
16:09
Speaker 4: the shoes on the money community. I feel like each
16:11
Speaker 4: and every single person crucifies themselves for past mistakes.
16:15
Speaker 6: Oh my god, we do, we do.
16:17
Speaker 5: I think it's a very human thing to do to
16:20
Speaker 5: be tough in ourselves, and especially it makes sense in
16:24
Speaker 5: light of what we're talking about earlier, how we feel
16:28
Speaker 5: like we're responsible for everything that's happened.
16:31
Speaker 6: You know, even if that's not true.
16:33
Speaker 5: You know, we are not the architects of evolution and
16:36
Speaker 5: how our brain was built, Nor did we choose our
16:39
Speaker 5: families of origin and our upbringings and you know, our
16:42
Speaker 5: education systems or the way the system is shaped, like,
16:45
Speaker 5: we're actually not responsible in that way. And yet we
16:49
Speaker 5: have this notion that, Okay, you know, I feel like
16:51
Speaker 5: I need to be tough on myself. I want to
16:53
Speaker 5: get better at something, so I can't afford to be
16:56
Speaker 5: self compassionate. If I'm nice to myself, then I'm being
16:59
Speaker 5: self indulgent, I'm being lazy, you know. And we feel
17:02
Speaker 5: like being tough on yourself, you know, that's what discipline's about.
17:06
Speaker 5: You know, I need to be disciplined, I need to
17:07
Speaker 5: be tough on myself. But actually it's another one of
17:10
Speaker 5: these misunderstandings because we mistake discipline with self criticism. They
17:17
Speaker 5: are actually not the same thing at all. All the
17:20
Speaker 5: research on behavior change tells us that being self critical
17:26
Speaker 5: actually is detrimental to improving. It does not help you
17:30
Speaker 5: be disciplined and get better. The most helpful forms of
17:34
Speaker 5: discipline actually involve kindness and self compassion and positive reinforcement.
17:40
Speaker 5: So it's interesting because when it comes to money, you know.
17:42
Speaker 6: We talked about it, how is taboo?
17:43
Speaker 5: It's misunderstood we feel responsible and there's all these kind
17:47
Speaker 5: of you know, misconceptions about it and we feel like
17:52
Speaker 5: it's our fault, but it's actually really important to start
17:57
Speaker 5: with self compassion and start with making emotionally safe space
18:04
Speaker 5: for yourself to honestly acknowledge possible shortcomings.
18:09
Speaker 6: But without worrying too much about judgment.
18:11
Speaker 5: Because that emotional safe space we give ourselves is what
18:15
Speaker 5: starts the courage to make changes and one of the
18:19
Speaker 5: key things for me to understand, you know, and I'm
18:22
Speaker 5: very much with you, and I think this is not
18:26
Speaker 5: just something that applies to women, though it's certainly been
18:28
Speaker 5: well documented as something that applies to women, but also
18:32
Speaker 5: to men too, which is like negative self talk, right,
18:35
Speaker 5: It's just sort of runs in your brain and there's
18:37
Speaker 5: all this negative self talk sometimes that you don't even
18:40
Speaker 5: realize is there. But the specific language we use in
18:43
Speaker 5: our self talk makes a huge difference.
18:46
Speaker 6: Right.
18:47
Speaker 5: If my self talk when I'm stressed about money is oh,
18:50
Speaker 5: I'm just so irresponsible, or like, oh god, I'm hopeless
18:53
Speaker 5: with money, I'm such an idiot, you know that language
18:56
Speaker 5: that's a focus on the self rather than a focus
18:59
Speaker 5: on behavior. A focus on behavior is something really specific
19:02
Speaker 5: about a specific behavior. It's like, you know, I bought
19:05
Speaker 5: around when I didn't need to last night. I bought
19:07
Speaker 5: the suit to feel more confident at work, but I'm
19:11
Speaker 5: not sure it's helped me. I still feel funny at work.
19:15
Speaker 5: And that's a focus on behavior.
19:16
Speaker 6: Right.
19:17
Speaker 5: We can have the same action, right, which is like,
19:20
Speaker 5: oh I overspent and I'm feeling bad.
19:23
Speaker 6: But what's my self talk?
19:25
Speaker 5: Is it focusing on myself in a negative way or
19:27
Speaker 5: is it just focusing on the behavior. Because one focusing
19:31
Speaker 5: on behavior is actually helpful for behavior change and makes
19:34
Speaker 5: sense for you know, quote unquote discipline and being tough
19:37
Speaker 5: on yourself in a positive way, versus the self talk
19:41
Speaker 5: that focused on the self is not helpful for behavior change,
19:45
Speaker 5: and it actually gets in the way of discipline and
19:48
Speaker 5: being tougher on self and improving. So self talk is
19:51
Speaker 5: super important and self love and compassion is a starting
19:55
Speaker 5: point for change.
19:56
Speaker 4: It makes us so much sense because saying something like
19:59
Speaker 4: oh my gosh, the worst, like that's not constructive. It
20:02
Speaker 4: doesn't actually create this ability to you know, find a
20:06
Speaker 4: different behavior. Right, you just got I'm the worst, full
20:08
Speaker 4: stop end of story, Like what are you even talking about?
20:11
Speaker 4: Whereas if you go this behavior is the worst, you go,
20:14
Speaker 4: all right, well, what am I going to do? About that,
20:16
Speaker 4: and I feel like it's that next step and it
20:18
Speaker 4: just makes sense and so many of us are guilty
20:21
Speaker 4: for it. And I was having this conversation the other
20:24
Speaker 4: day Lily with a girlfriend and she's like, yeah, I know,
20:26
Speaker 4: you keep telling me to do these things because obviously
20:29
Speaker 4: I'm not just passionate about money on she's on the money.
20:32
Speaker 4: I'm passionate. When I'm drinking wine on a Saturday night
20:35
Speaker 4: with my girlfriends. I'm like, oh my gosh, so this
20:37
Speaker 4: hot tip. They're just like, Victoria.
20:39
Speaker 1: Stop.
20:40
Speaker 4: But I was recommending to a girlfriend who is really
20:43
Speaker 4: harsh on herself the other day. I was like, why
20:45
Speaker 4: don't you just journal it out? Like why don't you
20:47
Speaker 4: write all of these things down, because once you've written
20:49
Speaker 4: it down, it just kind of stares you in the
20:52
Speaker 4: face and is a lot easier to combat. And she's like, oh,
20:55
Speaker 4: but Victoria, journaling is so lame, And I was like,
20:58
Speaker 4: you need to move away from that, because as much
21:01
Speaker 4: as I agree like journaling is not for everybody, it
21:04
Speaker 4: can actually be a really constructive activity to go, you
21:07
Speaker 4: know what, Pragmatically, I'm just going to write down all
21:09
Speaker 4: these behaviors that I'm doing that I would like to
21:11
Speaker 4: reframe or change, because then you can overlay what you've
21:15
Speaker 4: been saying, Lily and go, well, is that actually about
21:17
Speaker 4: the behavior or is that about me? Because if it's
21:19
Speaker 4: about me, that's not helpful and we need to remove
21:22
Speaker 4: that from our language. And that's going to give you
21:24
Speaker 4: the ability to just directly see whether your negative self
21:28
Speaker 4: talk is a really big part of your narrative or not,
21:30
Speaker 4: because I think so many of us will go, oh,
21:32
Speaker 4: I don't have negative self talk until you actually have
21:36
Speaker 4: it staring at you on a piece of paper in
21:38
Speaker 4: front of you. Sometimes you just don't even realize, and
21:42
Speaker 4: it can be so detrimental. I promise the second you
21:45
Speaker 4: realize that you are being negative towards yourself and can
21:48
Speaker 4: reframe that or rephrase the way that you communicate with yourself,
21:51
Speaker 4: you become such a happier human. And it makes me
21:54
Speaker 4: so happy to know that I get to share you
21:56
Speaker 4: and all of your hot tips with our community, Like
21:58
Speaker 4: it makes my soul so excited that these are the
22:01
Speaker 4: conversations we're having.
22:03
Speaker 5: Me too, Me too, And I just want to say
22:05
Speaker 5: to everybody that it's not our fault and this stuff
22:08
Speaker 5: doesn't come naturally. We don't just naturally you know know
22:10
Speaker 5: what we're thinking. We don't naturally journal, we don't naturally
22:14
Speaker 5: know our own psychology. It's not something we can expect
22:17
Speaker 5: of ourselves. I guess it's not like another failing that
22:19
Speaker 5: I haven't already done this, you know, self compassion is
22:22
Speaker 5: realizing like, Okay, this is how our brains are built
22:25
Speaker 5: and this is what's underlying our behavior.
22:28
Speaker 6: But you know, what can we do about it? And
22:29
Speaker 6: can we seek some active help?
22:31
Speaker 5: And you know that's why we've kind of been doing
22:34
Speaker 5: the work that we've done in building wiser today. But
22:37
Speaker 5: it's so important to start with not expecting too much
22:40
Speaker 5: of yourself.
22:41
Speaker 1: I could not agree more.
22:42
Speaker 4: All right, we do have to go to a really
22:44
Speaker 4: quick break, but on the other side of the break,
22:46
Speaker 4: I'm going to be talking to Lily about how we
22:48
Speaker 4: actually create meaningful change. So don't go anywhere, guys. All right, Lily,
22:57
Speaker 4: we are back, and I am so excited. We are
22:59
Speaker 4: talking about everything when it comes to decision making and
23:02
Speaker 4: behavioral economics, and we're talking about psychology and savings, and
23:05
Speaker 4: we're talking about whyser today and what you do with
23:08
Speaker 4: your work every single day. I would argue that you're
23:11
Speaker 4: justice equally passionate, if not more passionate than I am,
23:14
Speaker 4: about financial literacy and creating meaningful change. And I guess
23:18
Speaker 4: that's where I really want to kick the conversation off again.
23:22
Speaker 4: And if anyone in our community is listening and really
23:24
Speaker 4: resonating with the sense of I guess disconnect between actions
23:28
Speaker 4: and intent?
23:29
Speaker 1: Can you give us some top tips on what.
23:32
Speaker 4: Might get them to start creating meaningful change in their lives.
23:35
Speaker 5: Yeah, you know you mentioned this gap between intention and action,
23:41
Speaker 5: and first of all, everyone that has a human brain
23:44
Speaker 5: has a gap between intention and action. So we've got
23:46
Speaker 5: to normalize it. You know, it's not like the minute
23:49
Speaker 5: we think we want to do something, we can just
23:51
Speaker 5: do it. So we talked earlier about how it's not
23:54
Speaker 5: our fault that we have the habits and established our
23:56
Speaker 5: pathways that we do.
23:57
Speaker 6: We were not taught to manage this school, not to
24:00
Speaker 6: mention the.
24:01
Speaker 5: Brain naturally evolved to make habits hard to see, and
24:05
Speaker 5: you know, people tend to see it as a personal
24:07
Speaker 5: failure that they can't change on helpful habits or patterns
24:10
Speaker 5: of behavior, Like, Oh, I tried before, but you know
24:12
Speaker 5: I didn't succeed, so I didn't trust myself to do
24:15
Speaker 5: it in this area or any other area of my life,
24:18
Speaker 5: and it's super common for the brain to engage in
24:20
Speaker 5: black and white thinking like, oh, you know, I made
24:23
Speaker 5: a mistake or I fell off the wagon, so I
24:25
Speaker 5: might as well give up. But in reality, you know,
24:29
Speaker 5: if we want to change anything in our lives, we can,
24:31
Speaker 5: But change is not linear because you have to work
24:34
Speaker 5: with the brain and understand how the brain changes. So,
24:37
Speaker 5: for example, existing habits they serve a helpful function, and
24:41
Speaker 5: usually we actually have to understand the deeper need that
24:45
Speaker 5: current habits are fulfilling, like am I buying all these
24:50
Speaker 5: new clothes or going to the bars a lot because
24:53
Speaker 5: it gives me a sense of belonging or respect or
24:57
Speaker 5: is it comfort? The deeper behind our habits will help
25:01
Speaker 5: us realize what is it that we need to solve for,
25:04
Speaker 5: and now we can start changing how we solve for
25:06
Speaker 5: those needs with possibly healthier habits, but in a way
25:09
Speaker 5: that doesn't ask too much of our brains. So it's
25:12
Speaker 5: helpful to do a little bite sized bit of change
25:15
Speaker 5: at a time. We all know that if we try
25:18
Speaker 5: to crash diet or change all of our spending behavior,
25:20
Speaker 5: make big changes really quickly in two weeks, it won't work.
25:24
Speaker 5: We want fast results, but that's not how the brand changes.
25:27
Speaker 1: It's crazy, isn't it.
25:28
Speaker 4: We talk about this a lot in Sheese on the Money,
25:31
Speaker 4: and I think I've spoken about it on the podcast
25:34
Speaker 4: before because I also am obsessed with psychology, Like it's
25:37
Speaker 4: not an accident that I also studied it.
25:39
Speaker 1: But I think the.
25:40
Speaker 4: Thing that we forget, and I think you and I
25:42
Speaker 4: were talking about this literally more than a year ago,
25:45
Speaker 4: people forget that as humans as much as it's twenty
25:48
Speaker 4: twenty two and we have corporate jobs and like we
25:50
Speaker 4: literally can create the life we.
25:52
Speaker 1: Want to create innately.
25:54
Speaker 4: We are individuals who have survival mode still turned on,
25:59
Speaker 4: and survival mode really leans towards being comfortable because comfort
26:04
Speaker 4: is equal to safety. And if comfort is equal to safety,
26:06
Speaker 4: why would we move away from those habits where we
26:09
Speaker 4: are so deeply connected to being able to be safe
26:13
Speaker 4: and safe is literally all our body wants. So it
26:16
Speaker 4: makes sense that's why change is so uncomfortable, because your
26:19
Speaker 4: body goes through a level of trauma to change it
26:22
Speaker 4: because you're literally like, oh my gosh, I'm not safe anymore,
26:24
Speaker 4: and I'm actually a human that needs to be safe,
26:26
Speaker 4: like go back to cave man area, like leave the cave.
26:29
Speaker 4: Feel a little bit anxious, of course, because there are
26:32
Speaker 4: risks out there, and I just think that we forget
26:35
Speaker 4: that so deeply because we're so disconnected from that. And
26:39
Speaker 4: that's why behavioral change is so hard to make, because
26:41
Speaker 4: we're not meant to make changes if it keeps us alive.
26:44
Speaker 6: Right totally.
26:46
Speaker 5: You know, our habits have evolved for a reason, but
26:49
Speaker 5: that doesn't mean that those reasons continue to serve us.
26:53
Speaker 5: So we can work on one habit at a time
26:57
Speaker 5: if we want to change, rather than try to change
26:59
Speaker 5: the whole constellation of all our money habits. We can
27:03
Speaker 5: you know, practice small little changes that intentionally then results
27:08
Speaker 5: in a dopamine hit and build a positive reinforcement loop
27:12
Speaker 5: for your brain. And that's what wiser Today's about. And
27:15
Speaker 5: it's really important to make non linear progress because it
27:19
Speaker 5: just isn't like, oh, I'm going to get on this
27:21
Speaker 5: wagon of change and then everything is just going to
27:23
Speaker 5: go easy. Change that is effective and sustainable is not linear,
27:28
Speaker 5: So it's totally okay to fall off the wagon and
27:31
Speaker 5: then get back on when you're ready. That's actually a
27:34
Speaker 5: natural part of how the brain wants to change, and
27:38
Speaker 5: so you can retrain your brain and behavior over time.
27:42
Speaker 5: And the key to that is you have to feel
27:44
Speaker 5: good along the way. Right, A lot of people think, oh,
27:46
Speaker 5: what about deprivation. Am I going to have to change
27:49
Speaker 5: and give up what I really care about? Well, no,
27:52
Speaker 5: that's not going to drive sustainable change. Behavior change succeeds
27:56
Speaker 5: if you're feeling good along the way. If you let
27:59
Speaker 5: go of the guilt, you normalize the gap between intention
28:02
Speaker 5: and action, and you use science and get science based
28:06
Speaker 5: guidance that helps you to start closing this gap between
28:11
Speaker 5: intention and action, but in a much easier kind of small,
28:14
Speaker 5: bite sized daily way. And I think learning over time
28:19
Speaker 5: about psychology and you know, going back to your journaling example,
28:23
Speaker 5: whatever method it is, discovering over time and having the
28:28
Speaker 5: guidance to do that.
28:29
Speaker 6: What our thoughts are, just actually see what they are.
28:32
Speaker 5: Realize what thoughts are running around in our heads that
28:35
Speaker 5: might be leading to inaction or actions that are not
28:38
Speaker 5: aligned with what we really want.
28:40
Speaker 6: You know.
28:41
Speaker 5: Maybe it's a lack of self efficacy, like our lack
28:45
Speaker 5: of a belief and our own ability to achieve our
28:47
Speaker 5: goals or change, you know, or it's underlying beliefs and
28:51
Speaker 5: attitudes about the behavior we're trying to change.
28:54
Speaker 6: Like sometimes we say, for.
28:55
Speaker 5: Example, oh, we want to save more money, right, But
28:58
Speaker 5: if we dig into it, how we truly are thinking
29:02
Speaker 5: about saving money, it might be associated with feelings of deprivation,
29:08
Speaker 5: like I don't want to be deprived.
29:09
Speaker 4: No one wants to be deprived. One out of ten
29:12
Speaker 4: cannot recommend exactly.
29:14
Speaker 5: But if I'm saying that, right, if I'm saying that
29:17
Speaker 5: to myself, that saving is deprivation, that's the immediate thought
29:21
Speaker 5: that comes up, then you know what's that about?
29:25
Speaker 6: And is that the helpful thought?
29:27
Speaker 5: And we might have a story likewise that says, Okay,
29:30
Speaker 5: it's probably not that big of a deal if we
29:32
Speaker 5: don't have an emergency fund, like maybe it's something to
29:33
Speaker 5: do you when you're older. You know, whatever that story is,
29:37
Speaker 5: those underlying beliefs and attitudes, it's really beneath a surface
29:41
Speaker 5: and it's hard to see, but it might be what's
29:43
Speaker 5: really driving our behavior. So I think there's a lot
29:46
Speaker 5: of reasons why there's a very normal.
29:50
Speaker 6: Gap between intention and action. It's very normal. We all
29:53
Speaker 6: have it.
29:53
Speaker 5: We shouldn't blame ourselves for it, but we can do
29:56
Speaker 5: something about it.
29:57
Speaker 4: So talk to me a little bit about why financial
30:00
Speaker 4: health specifically is so important. I mean you touched on
30:03
Speaker 4: it before. We were talking about I guess behavioral based guidance,
30:07
Speaker 4: and we're talking about, you know, the science behind it
30:10
Speaker 4: is I guess money.
30:11
Speaker 1: The answer? Is more money the answer? Or is it
30:14
Speaker 1: something else?
30:15
Speaker 5: Like?
30:15
Speaker 4: What is driving that? Why should financial health be made
30:18
Speaker 4: a priority?
30:19
Speaker 5: Oh? Such a good question, you know, I feel like
30:20
Speaker 5: it's so misunderstood. Financial health is important because money is
30:25
Speaker 5: just a resource, like health, energy, and time. It's a
30:29
Speaker 5: resource we have to earn and conserve and use. And
30:32
Speaker 5: how well we deal with this resource just has a
30:36
Speaker 5: huge impact in our lives. Right, we can't escape it.
30:39
Speaker 5: It has a huge impact on our well being, in
30:41
Speaker 5: our sense of self because more money is not the answer,
30:44
Speaker 5: because money itself is not the answer.
30:46
Speaker 6: Because even people who are.
30:47
Speaker 5: Rich still have to deal with this, right, they still
30:50
Speaker 5: have to deal with the problem of how to use
30:51
Speaker 5: and manage this resource.
30:53
Speaker 6: The issues don't go away.
30:55
Speaker 5: Financial health just is something that is a part of
30:58
Speaker 5: health and life. And we see that in wealthy, dysfunctional families.
31:04
Speaker 5: We see it in lottery winners. You know, it's well
31:06
Speaker 5: established research that shows that a lot of lottery winners
31:11
Speaker 5: do not become happier after they win the lottery, and
31:14
Speaker 5: even the research shows that we don't become happier at
31:18
Speaker 5: a population level above a certain threshold of income, which
31:21
Speaker 5: isn't even that high.
31:22
Speaker 4: It's really not And I think it's so surprising as well,
31:25
Speaker 4: because in Australia nowadays, and don't quote me on these statistics,
31:29
Speaker 4: you're the one coming to the table today with stats,
31:31
Speaker 4: but the average Australian income is now setting it around
31:35
Speaker 4: eighty to eighty two ish thousand dollars, and that actually
31:38
Speaker 4: is the amount of money where happiness doesn't start increasing
31:42
Speaker 4: anymore after you reach that. So it's literally you earn
31:45
Speaker 4: the average amount and you aren't going to get happier
31:47
Speaker 4: the more you earn. It blows my mind, and I
31:50
Speaker 4: think that that has something to do with going back
31:52
Speaker 4: to our conversation about safety and security, because that's the
31:56
Speaker 4: amount of money that puts food on your table and
31:58
Speaker 4: makes sure all of your bills are come of it
32:00
Speaker 4: and you're not deprived in any way. So anything above
32:03
Speaker 4: and beyond that is great, it's special, but it's not
32:06
Speaker 4: going to contribute to your underlying happiness, and I think
32:09
Speaker 4: that so many of us have been tricked, especially in
32:12
Speaker 4: such a commercial world now that more money is going
32:16
Speaker 4: to equal more happiness because obviously bags and shoes and
32:19
Speaker 4: all of these other things that are material somehow impact
32:23
Speaker 4: our mental health and they really don't.
32:24
Speaker 6: Ah, so true, so true.
32:27
Speaker 5: You know, we talked about how looking rich is an
32:31
Speaker 5: implicit norm, like it's better if you look rich, but
32:36
Speaker 5: that's not true from a real happiness level, right, research
32:40
Speaker 5: shows not true.
32:41
Speaker 1: No, that's not sexy.
32:43
Speaker 4: We've talked about this before, and it's just like this
32:46
Speaker 4: idea of seeing somebody wearing all the expensive clothes and
32:50
Speaker 4: wearing all the expensive jewelry.
32:52
Speaker 1: It baffles me.
32:53
Speaker 4: Right that I saw this on social media the other
32:56
Speaker 4: day and I kind of had a little laugh to myself.
32:58
Speaker 4: Somebody posted that they've got a new car, so like
33:01
Speaker 4: they'd posted this picture of their brand new car and
33:04
Speaker 4: it had this big red bow on it, and I
33:06
Speaker 4: was like, Wow, we're celebrating getting into debt because there's
33:10
Speaker 4: absolutely no way that that car was not financed from
33:13
Speaker 4: that individual.
33:14
Speaker 1: I just knew it.
33:15
Speaker 4: And we're celebrating taking on finance. But nobody ever posts
33:19
Speaker 4: when they make their first investment or they are taking
33:23
Speaker 4: that next step, or they're making additional suprannuation contributions because
33:26
Speaker 4: that's not seen as sexy. But we're literally celebrating somebody
33:30
Speaker 4: going into debt, like everyone's commenting, oh my god, congrats,
33:33
Speaker 4: well done, girlfriend, You've done so well, like wow, this
33:36
Speaker 4: is amazing, and I'm like, wait, what, Like we're celebrating that,
33:40
Speaker 4: but no one's going to jump up and down about
33:43
Speaker 4: the wealth creation side of things that is actually going
33:45
Speaker 4: to create not only financial security.
33:48
Speaker 1: But mental health.
33:50
Speaker 4: Like every other kind of security that exists is going
33:53
Speaker 4: to stem from some level of financial stability. And it
33:57
Speaker 4: blew my mind and it reminds me of that idea
34:00
Speaker 4: that fake rich now real poor later, which we say
34:02
Speaker 4: a lot on the podcast, But wealth is kind of secret.
34:06
Speaker 4: Rich is shiny and visible and it is not actually wealth.
34:11
Speaker 1: Wealth is private. Wealth is secret.
34:13
Speaker 4: Wealth is quiet, and I think that there's something really
34:15
Speaker 4: sexy about it.
34:17
Speaker 5: Yeah, exactly, Spending is visible, but saving is invisible exactly.
34:22
Speaker 4: Like if you're spending and you're thinking that these material
34:26
Speaker 4: items are what brings value, like, it just is so
34:29
Speaker 4: backwards to me.
34:30
Speaker 1: It is so backwards, it really is.
34:32
Speaker 6: But you know, I think financial health because.
34:35
Speaker 5: Money is so misunderstood because we're looking at all the
34:38
Speaker 5: wrong things and we don't understand that financial health is
34:41
Speaker 5: actually about our psychology and our personal values and healthy
34:45
Speaker 5: habits in psychology. It's so integral to our lives. But
34:50
Speaker 5: it's like the entire financial industry isn't designing for that yet, right.
34:55
Speaker 5: I'd love to see the whole industry pivot and take
34:58
Speaker 5: it seriously, why don't we design products and services actually
35:01
Speaker 5: help people with financial health rather than go down a
35:05
Speaker 5: path of thinking, oh, you know, money is just about
35:08
Speaker 5: dollars and cents, and we're going to put all this
35:10
Speaker 5: innovation effort into an extra percent on a financial product
35:14
Speaker 5: or digitize some process so you can buy a financial
35:18
Speaker 5: product faster.
35:19
Speaker 1: Because that's not where the money is.
35:21
Speaker 4: Lily, you and I both know that, and I mean
35:24
Speaker 4: you're so wildly passionate about it. You've been working on
35:26
Speaker 4: Weiser today literally for years. But I guess you and
35:30
Speaker 4: I both know that as much as you're wildly passionate
35:32
Speaker 4: about this, and this is going to have honestly such
35:36
Speaker 4: a big change not only to our community but Australia wide.
35:40
Speaker 4: But in not doing it, because it's driving profit, like
35:43
Speaker 4: it is definitely hopefully going to be profitable, because it's
35:45
Speaker 4: like a business at the end of the day, and
35:47
Speaker 4: the more profitable a business is, the more impact it
35:50
Speaker 4: can have. However, like I think that you guys have
35:53
Speaker 4: a very different view of what success means, and your
35:57
Speaker 4: idea of success from my perspective, has never about the
36:00
Speaker 4: dollars on your balance sheet, and something I super respect
36:03
Speaker 4: about you guys, because it's just every other financial institution
36:07
Speaker 4: is about that extra percent.
36:08
Speaker 1: Do you know what I mean?
36:09
Speaker 5: I do, But I think that that's just because people
36:13
Speaker 5: think that, you know, the current financial products are the
36:16
Speaker 5: ones that make money, whereas I think that people care
36:20
Speaker 5: about financial health. We care about money in the context
36:22
Speaker 5: of our real lives, and if we're able to come
36:25
Speaker 5: up with the actually genuinely helpful products and services that
36:30
Speaker 5: that will be sustainable because people will want it. So
36:33
Speaker 5: I guess I feel like it's a win win. But
36:36
Speaker 5: I think it's our job to lift the money taboo
36:39
Speaker 5: and to move financial health into the light because it is.
36:43
Speaker 6: Important for everybody.
36:44
Speaker 5: There shouldn't be shame around it, and we can use
36:47
Speaker 5: technology and science and everything that we are starting to
36:51
Speaker 5: learn about the brain and proven interventions around behavior change
36:56
Speaker 5: to really build completely different things. I can imagine a
37:00
Speaker 5: really different future for money. How we talk about in
37:05
Speaker 5: our culture, the products and services that we have on offer.
37:08
Speaker 5: I think today's just you know, we're just getting started
37:11
Speaker 5: on that. And think about how much the conversation around
37:15
Speaker 5: mental health has moved into the light since COVID. You know,
37:19
Speaker 5: things can change quickly, and I think we can start
37:22
Speaker 5: lifting the money taboo. And that's why this community is
37:25
Speaker 5: so important and the work that you do has such
37:28
Speaker 5: an impact on people's lives.
37:31
Speaker 4: Yeah, I honestly could not agree more Lily, and honestly, unfortunately,
37:36
Speaker 4: that is all we have time for today. But before
37:38
Speaker 4: we go, I want to know our community has arguably
37:42
Speaker 4: fallen in love with you after having this conversation, because
37:44
Speaker 4: I know I'm obsessed with you. Where can we go
37:47
Speaker 4: to learn more about you and more about Wiser today?
37:51
Speaker 5: You can go on the Wiser website. You can also
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Speaker 6: Gives me inspiration every week.
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Speaker 4: You actually are, which is my favorite.
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Speaker 1: I adore it.
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Speaker 4: The Lily is definitely part of the community, but hit
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Speaker 4: Thank you for joining us today, Lily, it has as
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Speaker 6: Likewise, thank you so much.
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