Latest / It’s All Your Fault: High Conflict People / Worth Repeating: Protecting Elderly Loved Ones from High Conflict Manipulation
Transcript
- Speaker 1 (00:04): Welcome to, it's All Your Fault On TruStory fm, the one and only podcast dedicated to helping you identify and deal with the most challenging human interactions, those involving high conflict personalities. I'm Megan Hunter and I'm here with my co-host, bill Eddie. Speaker 2 (00:21): Hi everybody. Speaker 1 (00:23): We are the co-founders of the High Conflict Institute in San Diego, California where we focus on training, consulting, coaching classes, and other educational programs and methods, all to do with high conflict. Today is our final episode of 2024, and as you can tell, my voice is, if you've listened to us before, this isn't how my voice typically sounds. So the good news is my voice has come back from a few days ago when it was completely gone. The better news is that my last training of the year, which was a virtual training for three hours, was on last Tuesday morning right before Thanksgiving. And about two hours after the training, my voice just completely went away. So I made it through the whole year, year without losing my voice till the very end. So anyway, we'll be taking a short break here during the Christmas and New Year holidays, but we'll be back in the first week of January. Speaker 1 (01:26): Today we're going to talk about something that's in a roundabout ways connected to Christmas in particular, and that's family, and especially the elderly members of our families and how we take care of them or maybe some who don't take care of them so well. And so I hope you'll enjoy this discussion. But before we start, I just want to, and I know Bill wants to thank all of you, all of our listeners, for listening to us and supporting us. We've been doing this a few years now, and in 2024, it's been a big year in many ways. When we started the podcast, we really didn't know what to expect because neither of us even listened to podcasts. So we just kind of went for it blindly and we just like to talk and we like to educate. So we thought maybe a podcast is a good way to do that. And I was just looking at the stats today, back in October, 2022, we had around 5,600 downloads for the month, and we were very excited about that. In October 20, 23, 1 year on, we had around 15,000 downloads in October this year, 2024, we had nearly 26,000 downloads for the month. And I know Bill, you're surprised you don't get to see these stats all the time. So you're hearing 'em for the first time like our listeners. Speaker 2 (02:56): That's great. Speaker 1 (02:57): Yeah, it's very exciting. Thank you for listening. Thanks for telling your colleagues and friends about us. We are humbled, we are grateful, we really appreciate you. We appreciate the difficult circumstances that many of you are in, and so we hope that we're helpful. We just want to help everyone from every background. We want to make sure that all of us are included, all of us can improve, all of us can learn and find the missing piece. That's our goal. So podcast. Speaking of podcast, this was a huge year for Bill being on many, many podcasts as a guest. But in particular, he was a guest podcast guest on the podcast called The Huberman Lab with Dr. Andrew Huberman. And thank you, Dr. Huberman, if you're listening, because as you might expect, we increased our audience quite a bit as a result of Bill's appearance on that. Speaker 1 (03:55): So I know Bill, that was exciting for you. And I have a very funny story. About a week ago I was in Medford, Oregon training the Oregon State Bar. And by the way, Medford and Ashland are just fun. Beautiful. I had no idea it was so pretty there. So anyway, I finished the training, I'm back at the airport flying out and I'm going through security. Security agent said, wow, you have a brain in your backpack? And I said, well, yes I do. And she could see it through the X-ray machine and it's the brain that Bill and I now both carry in our bags and using our trainings. So another security agent overheard this conversation and kind of perked up and said, Hey, have you ever heard of the Huberman Lab podcast? Kind of spun around. I said, yeah, well, yes I have. And he said, there was this really amazing guy talking about high conflict something or other. So imagine my glee at saying, well, that's my co-founder and business partner and podcast partner, bill Eddie, is that who you're talking about? And he said, yeah, I can't believe it. So I had a minor celebrity moment there. I guess that's our slice of recognition. So we had a nice chat about that and that was really fun. So congratulations, bill on a really great year with all your books and being on that podcast. It's Speaker 2 (05:22): Just fantastic. I was just quickly looking to see how many views that Huberman Lab podcast got, and right now it's 400,000 views from a month ago on YouTube. And they say more people listen to it than watch it, so they expected it's over a million views. So I'm just Speaker 2 (05:43): Totally amazed, but also excited that people are getting this information. It's just amazing. And what's interesting to me is he found my book, five Types of People Who Can Ruin Life, which was published six years ago, and someone gave it to him and he thought this would be interesting for a lot of people. So it kind of proves that topics don't necessarily take off right away, but in time they get found and people are interested. And frankly as we'll talk about today, high conflict. People are becoming more and more a presence and people want tools. They want ways to manage relationships and help people who have high conflict behavior as well as the people around them. So I'm very excited and hopeful actually, that so many more people are getting this information. Speaker 1 (06:38): Yeah, it's fun. And after all these years we've been on lots of airplanes, standing on lots of stages with lots of microphones and sometimes without a microphone and trying to yell into the crowd, but it lands at the right time and it lands with the people who need it. And we frequently hear from people that they wish they'd have had this information before they got married or during their marriage or at work or as they were getting a job or just many types of relationships. Maybe a friendship could have been saved if I'd known these tools and how to help my friend who wasn't able to manage their emotions, things like that. So it's very gratifying what we do, and it's been a great year. We've traveled, we're trained in several countries, including our first in-person exposure in England with you going over to the UK Bill and then having some subsequent virtual trainings in the uk, right? Speaker 2 (07:38): Yes. Yes. So it was first time really the last 12 months that we really got going there. Now we've been in Australia a lot. We've been in Canada a lot. You were in South Africa I believe a couple years ago. Yes. No, what we're learning really is these are worldwide problems and yet very personal problems. And I just have a lot of optimism because I think with knowledge, people know what to do and aren't surprised. And that's our goal is to give people the tools to manage relationships and to make things as positive as they can be, which is quite possible. So knowledge is power and that's what we hope to give people. Speaker 1 (08:21): Absolutely. Last week I trained 70 family law stakeholders in Israel via Zoom. And yeah, that was really interesting. We've been in all these different countries, we've expanded into some new areas such as employee relations, specialized schools, and lots more, but equally gratifying. And I guess if this is my kind of end of the year looking back, what was really wonderful for me, I love all the travel I get to do and the training and the people I meet, but one of the most gratifying things I do are one-on-one consultations because you have someone who with a problem, they're presenting to you that they can't unlock, they can't decode, it's confusing, they're frustrated, they feel stuck, they don't know where to go. And with just a little bit of using the brain as a visual aid and just helping people think about things in a different and a new way, you see the light bulb go on and you see sort of a weight lifted from people's shoulders. And so to me, that's very gratifying. Speaker 2 (09:33): Yeah, let me ditto that because consultations is one of the big things I do. And after the Huberman lab interview consultations, I tripled for me and I'm getting people from England. I had someone who had left Russia and his wife's in Oregon and he's in London and has a parenting custody issue. And it's so fascinating to me because of being involved a lot with family law, how similar the problems and similar the solutions are worldwide, and it's just in court out of court mediation. I just want to put in another little note, I just finished a mediation training today and one of the people said, oh Bill, you forgot to announce your podcast. And I was saying, oh, that's right. And we have a podcast and she says I to it every week. Wow. I had people from England and Canada and the US in the training, and it's just gratifying. I think that we can help individuals, but that we can help a lot of individuals and that's how exciting. Speaker 1 (10:45): Yeah, I don't know if I've ever told you this story, bill, but when I was in, I think it was Tanzania probably about 10 years ago, we'd helped build a school. The church I went to was helped build a school and plant gardens and things for this community and in Tanzania. And the child that I sponsored was in this school and I got to meet her and I got to meet her mom. And we're talking pretty remote tribal living. It was a mix of tribal and somewhat more modern, but we're standing in the school parking lot and the little girl and her mom were there and they were waiting for her dad to come get her. So it turns out, I don't know that they'd ever been married, but they had been together and produced a child and he hadn't been paying his child support. And this was in, I mean, the middle of nowhere in Tanzania. And when you said the problems are the same everywhere, they really are. And so mom was refusing to let dad take the child until he paid cash on the spot for the past two child support. And there was no court orders or anything, but there was quite a bit of conflict there. So there's conflict everywhere, and we just hope to bring peace everywhere. Speaker 1 (12:00): So anyway, that's for fun or for you today. Alright, so back to business. We want to know what you want to hear from us in 2025. We're going to change it up a bit. So ask us your questions, suggest different formats for our show. There's lots of different podcast formats and I actually am a podcast listener now. I've been finding new podcasts. So we want to be relevant, we want to be fun, not boring. So feel free to send us your questions and suggestions to podcasts and high conflict institute.com or through our website@highconflictinstitute.com slash podcast where you'll also find all of the show notes and links. Alright, so Bill, let's talk about the elderly and high conflict. We've touched on this a few times in podcasts of past in some of the episodes because it's becoming more frequent and we've seen this from some of the people that we provide consultations for. Speaker 1 (13:00): It comes up in trainings and there just seems to be a big vulnerability with elderly people when it comes to high conflict, I guess exposure. And it can come in many forms depending on what the situation is. But you've written an article recently and we'll put the link in the show notes and you started, you talked about the statistics. According to the United Nations, the worldwide population of people 65 and older is growing rapidly in the us approximately 17% of us are in this age group, whereas by 2050, close to 25% may be in China and Japan, this percentage will be slightly over 30% by then. And at the same time, birth rates are already decreasing in every country around the world and future labor markets are expected to decrease. And then you talked a bit about at the same time, the percentage of adults with high conflict personalities also seems to be increasing, including preoccupation with blame, unmanaged emotions, extreme behaviors and all or nothing thinking. Let's talk about that a bit. You talked about such individuals, some of them high conflict people often having this cluster B personality disorder. So let's talk about that a bit. What does that look like, bill? Speaker 2 (14:24): And this relates back to my book, our New World of Adult Bullies, and that is that bullies seem to have lack the breaks that most people have that keep their behavior social and positive. And so three personalities stand out, antisocial, which I'll probably talk more about today than the others, really lacks remorse and in many ways lacks a conscience. And people continue to be surprised that such people exist. They're considered about three to 4% of the adult population, about half have been involved with the criminal justice system and their behavior seems to be kind of driven to dominate or even harm other people. The thing about thinking about the elderly is that we haven't been talking about them on this program. We talked about children, we talk about custody disputes, we talk about the workplace, talk about the community, but elderly often are overlooked and yet they're more vulnerable, partly because they're more isolated. Speaker 2 (15:39): And also they didn't grow up with as many high conflict people as current generations are. That's surprising to people to realize is high conflict personality seem to be increasing in society. And 50 years ago, you didn't have to worry about dating somebody as likely with a high conflict personality as you do today. There's various reasons for that, cultural, et cetera. We're rewarding and paying a lot of attention to high conflict behavior, but antisocial then also narcissistic personality, which tends to be lacking in empathy. People think, oh, but they also lack empathy. They're not real concerned if they affect somebody else or maybe harm somebody else to get where they want to go to look superior. And then there's also borderline personalities, which often lack the emotional self-control. They have more emotion dysregulation and are more, it's not interested in harming the elderly, but they may just because they lack sensitivity to other people because they're so absorbed in their own stuff. Keep in mind all three of these personalities, some people have these personalities and they're not high conflict people like you just said, Megan, the blaming others, all or nothing thinking and such. But these personalities lack the restraints that protect most people in relationships. And so older people and the statistics you read are about 65 years old and older. So when we talk about elderly senior citizens, older people we're generally talking 65 and older, and they're more vulnerable, Speaker 1 (17:39): Especially when they lose, let's say lose their spouse and become a widow or widower, then you get one more step into vulnerability. You don't have someone protecting you. But I've even seen some that are still both spouses still living. And the bullying of a high conflict person is just as strong as if it were towards a single person, Speaker 2 (18:01): Right? And so what happens is high conflict, people often see a place for an advantage and bullies are looking for an advantage. And so they see an opening, it's like a football game, and suddenly there's this big gap. Well, it's like there's an elderly person there and there's no one around them. And one of the big problems today, and I know it's worldwide, and I've seen research about England with this is loneliness in older age is a big problem. And we have to, as a society, realize people need people and the elderly in our own families need to have people to reach out and make sure they're not too isolated or too alone. But one thing you said I want to reinforce is that vulnerability so they can get conned and if they've lost a spouse, they have half the brain power that they had when there was two people to decide, is this a scam or should I give money to this person? And they get played on their sympathies a lot. Like I said, older generation, you didn't have to fear strangers. The way today you have to have your eyes open. Speaker 1 (19:15): So it may be conning that comes from the outside, you may have somewhat, you get that phone call. A lot of elderly folks are scammed out of a lot of money. Like you said in the article, the scam where they would be the caller would be the Speaker 2 (19:31): Grandparents scam, the grandparents, Speaker 1 (19:32): The grandparents scam, where they would say things like, your grandchild is in jail and they have to be bailed out. You have to send this money. And so many people do that. I mean it's just incredible. And that's coming from external, from the outside, but it also comes from the inside. And I think that may be just as problematic as the external conning. The internal a lot of times will come from family or from other caregivers. And if you have a high conflict person that's the caregiver of someone elderly, and you think about the pattern of the high conflict personality, it's all about me. It's about meeting my needs constantly. That is my operating system. So if that person is the caregiver for someone else, that's an oxymoron. I mean, you have a caregiver whose self-interest exceeds the person they're supposed to be giving the care to. It's not to say that all of them are going to con or be super destructive, but at the very least they're going to be maybe seeing their own needs above the needs of the elderly person. Speaker 2 (20:44): And often what we see is if you have someone with a high conflict personality, caring for an elderly person, whether they're hired to do that or a family member, just a son or daughter, that one of the biggest things that we see is that they isolate the person. Speaker 1 (21:02): They Speaker 2 (21:02): Don't want them seeing their other relatives. They don't want their friends or other relatives coming to the house, oh, she's not feeling well, she doesn't want to see you. People have to have their suspicions up a little bit about that. If that keeps going, maybe you've got a caregiver who is trying to isolate the person. And that does need to be looked into. It's surprisingly common. And one of the things, and I found this out when I wrote the Billy's book, is how much people try to keep secret that they're being bullied. They don't want people to know. They don't want people to know. They feel ashamed that somehow there's something about them that makes them be bullied and people need to know, no one deserves to be bullied. There's nothing you could do that would justify being bullied, pushed around, manipulated, emotionally abused, et cetera. So that's very much a concern we need to pay more attention to. Speaker 1 (22:03): They're not speaking up for themselves. And sometimes there's just not the energy there. There's probably a bigger fear component and then it's out of balance because you're dependent on this person maybe for your food needs, maybe for your hygiene needs, maybe for even standing up off of a chair. So you just never say anything to set a limit with this person. I guess the definition of vulnerability. And this person a lot of times has control of the finances, so there's too much control. And I guess the biggest concerning part is if someone's not speaking up, and it is kind of a tendency for society to forget the elderly a bit. I mean out of sight, out of mind in a way. And unless it's top of mind or you're that really caring, loving person that's going to go visit your elderly parent or grandparent or someone else, a lot of times this is sort of an invisible segment of society. And so you may not even see what's happening that no one will ever know. And it's really sad that someone can live their whole life and get to the end and the end of the life is pretty miserable because of a high conflict person. Speaker 2 (23:19): And what's so important, I think talking about this during the holidays, is that people may have more contact with older relatives. They may come to the home for events and celebrations. What we've learned, this is a piece we learned from doing our videos on domestic violence, is you have to ask people don't say, are you being abused or How are you being treated is ask, are you being cut off from people? Do you have your phone or has your phone been taken away from you? Have you been pushed around or restrained in your bed? Things like that Speaker 1 (23:56): Yelled at, framed at. Speaker 2 (23:58): Yes, definitely. And so people need to ask that and be aware because like the shame part, is there a shame to speak up? So they may not initiate it, but if you say that caregiver you have, how's that working out? Sometimes caregivers are manipulative. Does this happen to you? Do they control your money? Like you said, do they control your phone? You're going out, et cetera. So these are questions that need to be asked rather than wait to be told. Speaker 1 (24:32): Yeah, so then what do you do, bill? If the person says, oh no, everything's fine. I mean, I guess in one way there's only so much you can do, but I think if you have a suspicion, I mean, I'm not encouraging people to be highly suspicious of everyone, but if you see some things, if you see some red flags, I think they should be explored. Maybe dig a little bit deeper, maybe not with that person, but go visit more often and see if you start to see some patterns and maybe ask, give her some questions as well and see what their reactions are. So is there anything else that someone can do in a situation like that? Or do you just drop it and say, okay, this person has agency over their own life and they should be able to make these decisions? Speaker 2 (25:19): Yeah. Well, two things I think. One is drop by, don't announce yourself, just drop by. And if there is a caregiver or a relative who you're a little concerned about is drop by and say, oh, I wanted to see granny and the other person. Oh, she's not feeling well. Oh well, that's fine. I'll come to her bedside. And you kind of see if a concern arises. But the other thing, that question of are you being treated poorly or well, et cetera, and they say everything's fine, is to tell them, if you ever have a concern, let me know. Call me or I'll be checking by every once in a while is let me know. But you're right, we don't want to make people paranoid. We don't want to make people obsessed about this. It's more just raising our general awareness. And you'd be surprised when people go, oh, I hadn't thought of that. Then they go, oh, there is something strange going on. That's when you want to look deeper. But I think our general awareness as a society needs to increase about the care of older people. We've never had this many older people and we've never had a world with this many high conflict people, I believe. Speaker 1 (26:38): Right? Well, that's quite a combination, right? Quite a crossover. Yeah, Speaker 2 (26:42): It's a potentially dangerous, but a lot of this stuff is having your eyes open. People tell us all the time, they're so glad to read a book or listen to the podcast and now they're aware of something they just hadn't been aware of before. And that's all you need to be society. This is still small numbers, high conflict people, maybe 10% I believe, of the population, but that's still a very small number when you think about the other 90%. So just be realistic, be aware, have eyes open, but also have empathy for what older people may feel in terms of isolation and vulnerability. Speaker 1 (27:21): So now let's say that you've discovered that a caregiver is mistreating or mishandling funds doing things that they shouldn't be doing with an elderly loved one or whoever their caregive is. How do you approach that situation? Everything from contacting law enforcement to contacting adult protective services. But the problem I think that often happens is the caregiver has been showing themselves in public, the public face as just the world's ultimate caregiver, and then an adult protective service worker comes along and interviews them and they just completely give a wonderful, happy story. That can be a really tough situation. So what's a person to do if you cannot get anyone to believe you? Speaker 2 (28:16): The first thing, and I say this in the bullies book, is recognize the pattern of behavior. See if there's signs of excessive control, of secrecy of potential for manipulation, et cetera. But I like to talk about the cars method, that connecting, analyzing, responding, and setting limit for most high conflict situations. At first, I would say try to connect with a caregiver and just say, I just want to let you know I really appreciate how hard your job is or all the work you're doing for our grandfather or things that show empathy, attention and respect for that person Speaker 1 (29:02): As opposed to Why are you treating my loved one so poorly? Speaker 2 (29:06): Yes, yes. So you want to start with trying a positive connection and people appreciate that. And some people are just overworked, maybe overworked and underpaid. Elderly care doesn't get as much as a hotel treatment and this and that. So see if you can connect. Sometimes you can't. Sometimes the person really does push you away. Then you analyze your options, you do your research, like you said, adult protective services, elder abuse, task forces, getting a lawyer. I often tell people, find a lawyer. There's elder law today. It's a whole area of law that I didn't remember when I started out 30 years ago. But today it's a huge area of the law and it's a lot about what do we do? What are these decisions and who makes these decisions? And so talk, consult for an hour with an elder law attorney and say, what are my options here? Speaker 2 (30:06): What can I do to try to separate my grandfather from this person that I'm a little suspicious of? What are the options that I have? So don't feel helpless. There's always more than one solution, but also respond to misinformation. People may be getting the wrong view. And let's say there's Adult Protective Services has interviewed a caregiver, and then they tell you, Hey, everything's wonderful. We'll say, Hey, I'm not so sure there's this and this. Make sure you have some information that you can share. Generally, if people want to keep someone away from you, that's a warning sign. You want to have free easy access to your relatives, Speaker 1 (30:56): Big red flag. Speaker 2 (30:58): And the last is setting limits. And that may be the biggest area. And the article I wrote for the newsletter this month, I talk about setting limits and imposing consequences is becoming a bigger area for people in these situations because a high conflict person is physically able to isolate a senior citizen. And so you may have to set limits on that person and you may have to get help and get authorities to help. Fortunately, there are agencies now more than ever before, but this is going to be growing because everybody wants to grow old, happy and healthy and cared about. And so younger people listening to this, this is going to become more important over the years for yourself as well as for your relatives. Speaker 1 (31:54): Yeah, it's true. And if you have a lot of money, you're a bigger target. Speaker 2 (31:58): And by the way, I want to emphasize elderly about half of, and this is sad, about half of people over 65 have savings, and about half of people only have a month or two of savings. But it's not unusual that older people do have some savings and that makes them a target for people that want your money. And they'll help you clean out your bank account in some cases so they have savings, maybe get social security, maybe get a retirement check, these kinds of things. So they're more vulnerable and weak on the one hand, on the other, they have money. And so we need to be aware. This is a magnet in some ways for bullies, for high conflict people, Speaker 1 (32:46): Con artists. Yeah. So I guess if someone's asking you to sign away, give a power of attorney over your medical care, over your finances, the key or combination to your safety deposit box at the bank, keys to your house, keys to your car, changing the title, any of those things, never ever do it without talking to someone very trusted or more importantly, probably a lawyer. That's where we see the most swindling going on and they think they can get away with it. And a lot of times too sad to say that sometimes it goes even beyond that. There are states, at least in the US where those on hospice care have morphine, a morphine pack in their homes from the hospice care, and whoever is the caregiver of that person can give them morphine, which can kill them. Speaker 1 (33:46): It's a very treacherous, risky area of dysregulation in some states. And if you get that in the wrong hands, some pretty drastic extreme things. And look, I wouldn't be saying this if I hadn't seen it happen. It's kind of very concerning. So like you said, bill, if there are people in your life that we all have elderly people in our lives, look out for them, visit them, take care of them, make sure that they're not being abused or stolen from, or just not being taken care of in general, or being emotionally abused, being yelled at and screamed at, they're vulnerable people. If you're a young person or middle aged and you're headed the elderly direction someday, we're all going to get there. Be prepared in advance, have your directives done, know who's handling things. These are all very important things to know and have backup systems. So Speaker 2 (34:49): Right, think a little bit more as we go into the future about all of these things for your own sake as well as your older relatives. I want to add some more positive notes. And that is there's starting to be research into people who live to a hundred, and it's called the Blue Zones, that there's Blue zones around the world where people unusually high percentage live to a hundred or more. And the number one thing they say, that's a factor. And while physical activity and what you eat can be important, the number one most important factor is community. And so one of the things is don't let older people become isolated is have them involved in activities with other people. I think as all of us grow older, we need to pay attention. Our society focuses a lot on money and material things, and with all our toys and screens, it's easy to get isolated. But what's most important, guess what? It's other people. Speaker 1 (36:06): Other people. Speaker 2 (36:07): And that's what families have to offer is each other and friends communities. So just as we're aware of all this is, apply this to your own life and to your loved ones. And I think the future, our eyes, if we pay attention to this, things are going to be much brighter for all of us. So there's a lot of hope just seeing Christmas stories and Hanukkah celebrations and other events. We have people. As long as we have people, we have hope, Speaker 1 (36:44): We do, we do. So we do hope that all of you will have happy holidays, whatever you're celebrating, and this year, pay just a little extra attention to the elderly folks in your life. And even if it's just a neighbor, someone down the street, someone at the store, just think about that. They might be lonely and give a little extra love. All right, so again, thank you for all your support this year. We are very grateful and we wish all of you the happiest of holidays and a great wrap up to year 2024, and we'll look forward to lots more wonderful things happening in 2025. Speaker 1 (37:30): If you have questions for us or suggestions, like I said earlier, send them to podcast@highconflictinstitute.com or submit them to high conflict institute.com/podcast. So until next time in 2025, keep learning, keep practicing, and don't take the bait during holiday dinners. Sometimes it's okay to just do the SSN. Shut up, smile and nod and avoid conflict during the holidays. All right? Be kind to yourself. Be kind to others, especially our elderly folks, while we all try to keep the conflict small and find the missing piece. It's all Your Fault is the production of True Story FM Engineering by Andy Nelson. Music, by Wolf Samuels, John Coggins and Ziv Moran. Find the show notes and transcripts@truestory.fm or high conflict institute.com/podcast. If your podcast app allows ratings and reviews, please consider doing that for our show.