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Transcript

S2E14: Why Making Friends as an Adult Feels So Hard (And What Actually Helps) · The Third Thing

• 0:00
  Danyelle: Welcome to the Third Thing, a podcast about friendship in all its fullness.
• 0:05
  Danyelle: The conflict worth repairing, the evolution worth honoring, and sometimes the letting go.
• 0:10
  Michelle: Think of it as a kitchen table conversation with honesty, laughter, validation, and plenty of tea.
• 0:17
  Danyelle: I'm Danielle, a therapist, healer, and Udo practitioner who's been thinking about the way we love each other for most of my life.
• 0:25
  Michelle: And I'm Michelle, a life coach, facilitator, and a space holder at my core.
• 0:30
  Michelle: I've spent a lifetime helping people communicate better and more honestly.
• 0:34
  Danyelle: We've been best friends for 26 years and we've got the first things.
• 0:39
  Danyelle: We've done the work and we want to share what we've learned.
• 0:41
  Danyelle: The tools, the hard parts, the things nobody taught us.
• 0:45
  Michelle: There are a lot of people figuring out their friendships without a roadmap, so we're pulling up a chair.
• 0:50
  Danyelle: Hi Dee.
• 0:51
  Danyelle: Hi, Mish.
• 0:52
  Danyelle: How are you doing?
• 0:53
  Danyelle: I'm good.
• 0:55
  Danyelle: It's a beautiful day.
• 0:57
  Danyelle: The sun is shining.
• 0:59
  Danyelle: Second day of heat wave.
• 1:01
  Michelle: Love a sunny day in San Francisco, but it does make covering up for the podcast feel a bit sweaty.
• 1:07
  Danyelle: I do feel like I never know what to wear.
• 1:11
  Danyelle: And I've lived here my whole life.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 1:13
  Danyelle: And I get it, climate change and such.
• 1:16
  Danyelle: But like, how many times do I drive from one side of the city to the other?
• 1:21
  Michelle: Bring a jacket.
• 1:22
  Danyelle: I don't.
• 1:22
  Danyelle: Yeah, bring a jacket.
• 1:23
  Danyelle: Yeah.
• 1:24
  Danyelle: Okay.
• 1:24
  Michelle: I'm excited to get into this topic today because it's a bit of a departure.
• 1:29
  Michelle: So many of the previous episodes were about the foundation of our friendship and the building and the history and how that shows up.
• 1:38
  Michelle: But this episode is about making friends as adults.
• 1:42
  Michelle: When I think about adult friendship, the thing that stands out to me is that the structures where we originally made many of our friends in childhood are not existing anymore.
• 1:56
  Michelle: And so most of us make our friends in elementary school, in middle school, high school.
• 2:02
  Michelle: And if we're lucky enough to carry them through adulthood, amazing.
• 2:06
  Michelle: But like the life stages episode, we move, we get married, we have kids.
• 2:10
  Michelle: There are things that pull us in different directions.
• 2:13
  Michelle: And so how do you make friends as an adult?
• 2:17
  Michelle: I think is an important question to ask.
• 2:19
  Michelle: I think you have to be more intentional about making friends.
• 2:23
  Michelle: And it's not something that we're necessarily used to.
• 2:26
  Michelle: Unfortunately, some of my college friends, I mean, they're still amazing friends, but we had a really hard time after we left school because we literally live together in the dorms, in our apartments.
• 2:38
  Michelle: We were taking classes together.
• 2:39
  Michelle: And then all of a sudden, in some cases, you move across the country or to a different state.
• 2:44
  Michelle: And we are out of the habit of how you stay connected.
• 2:48
  Michelle: And so adult friendship, I do think takes this extra effort.
• 2:54
  Michelle: And there are these concentric circles of friendships.
• 2:57
  Michelle: You're going to have your sort of tight inner circle with your partner.
• 3:00
  Michelle: And if you're lucky, there's going to be a family member, a mom, a sister, a brother, and your bestie.
• 3:06
  Michelle: But then there are other circles that do require a phone call, an invite to a party, a plan for a trip later this year, whatever it is.
• 3:14
  Michelle: And so before we get into making new friends, just naming that there is this investment to be made.
• 3:21
  Michelle: And you can reopen those doors too once somebody has exited for whatever reason or drifted, like we've talked about so often.
• 3:31
  Danyelle: I think what you're speaking to is we don't know how.
• 3:35
  Danyelle: If the structures have been in place from pre-K up to college, and then as we do, we arrive in the real world with like pretty limited social skills, in having to be like, hello, if I don't work with you, if we don't have some sort of built-in connection already, how am I meeting people?
• 4:01
  Danyelle: And that this comes up a lot in my therapy sessions.
• 4:05
  Danyelle: I think we're in a place, I think millennials, younger Gen Xers, older Gen Zers are in this place of you're evolving, you're growing.
• 4:15
  Danyelle: And are the people I grew up with the people I'm going to be building with long term?
• 4:21
  Danyelle: And so there is this, but if I'm not at work, right?
• 4:26
  Danyelle: I've been out of a nine to five for six years.
• 4:29
  Michelle: For many of us who work from home and don't have that same, let's go out for cocktails after work.
• 4:34
  Danyelle: That built in, right?
• 4:36
  Danyelle: I don't have kids, so I'm not inviting anybody to the park after pickup.
• 4:40
  Danyelle: It starts to get narrower and narrower and narrower.
• 4:44
  Danyelle: And I often am like, what is the thing that you could talk about for hours?
• 4:48
  Danyelle: Find another person who wants to do that, right?
• 4:51
  Danyelle: But that can be hard and it can be uncomfortable.
• 4:54
  Danyelle: And so I do think it's so important to give yourself that grace because from zero to 25-ish, there are the structures in place and they are very structured.
• 5:07
  Danyelle: They're almost, I would say, rigid in terms of how you're connecting with other humans.
• 5:13
  Michelle: Just to go back for a moment, we're each going to be coming to the table with our own stories of what that looks like.
• 5:20
  Michelle: And you and I are also both very different humans.
• 5:23
  Michelle: I'm always surprised by you tend to be a bit more of an introvert and enjoy a cozy home day.
• 5:30
  Michelle: I'm a bit more extroverted and really get energized by being around people.
• 5:34
  Michelle: And yet you can be super friendly and gregarious and make conversation with someone at the checkout counter where I'm like moving along.
• 5:44
  Michelle: Like you're very friendly.
• 5:45
  Michelle: So I think we'll have something different to bring to the table for this conversation.
• 5:51
  Michelle: So I would love it if you would kick us off.
• 5:54
  Michelle: What's a time where recently where you've made friends as an adult?
• 5:59
  Michelle: And also what have your challenges been?
• 6:03
  Danyelle: Yeah, I remember when we were prepping for this, and I was like, um, Bex, hello.
• 6:09
  Danyelle: And Bex is who I call my partner in magic or Pim, if you will.
• 6:14
  Michelle: Wow.
• 6:15
  Michelle: No, there was an accident.
• 6:18
  Danyelle: We met in August of 22.
• 6:22
  Danyelle: I had just launched the Witchy Femme and the Witchy Femme, my witchy business where all of my spiritual offerings lived.
• 6:34
  Danyelle: She is in transition right now.
• 6:35
  Danyelle: She is sleeping, resting.
• 6:38
  Michelle: Being incorporated into Tide ceiling.
• 6:41
  Danyelle: Absolutely.
• 6:42
  Danyelle: Yeah.
• 6:42
  Danyelle: I had just launched and was looking for different opportunities.
• 6:48
  Danyelle: And Bex hosts a monthly party in Oakland called Queer Magic.
• 6:54
  Danyelle: And it's fun because it incorporates astrology and a little bit of magic.
• 6:59
  Danyelle: And there's vendors, and a lot of the vendors are very magical, but additionally, they're tarot readers.
• 7:05
  Danyelle: And so I actually Benny was the one who sent me the listing, the like looking for vendors.
• 7:15
  Danyelle: And I applied, and Bex got back to me and was like, Yes, would love to have you.
• 7:20
  Danyelle: And I remember going and meeting her.
• 7:24
  Danyelle: And this was the day that I went.
• 7:27
  Danyelle: I actually had it was the first day I had vented, and I had two events that day.
• 7:32
  Danyelle: And so I was going from one event to the other.
• 7:34
  Danyelle: I ended at Queer Magic, and I was like so excited.
• 7:38
  Danyelle: I made like 200 bucks.
• 7:40
  Danyelle: And I was like, I think this could be a real thing.
• 7:43
  unknown: Yeah.
• 7:44
  Danyelle: All to say, at the end, the party was still going on.
• 7:48
  Danyelle: I was packing up, and Bex and I got to have like more of a one-on-one conversation.
• 7:53
  Danyelle: And the funny thing about that is she talks about it as like, oh my goodness, this person is saying all of the things that I've been saying in my head to myself out loud to me in this moment.
• 8:08
  Danyelle: She's queer, she's a witch, she's a person of color.
• 8:11
  Danyelle: We have all these intersecting identities, and oh my goodness, we have to be friends.
• 8:19
  Danyelle: And I was just like very like friendly and love a conversation.
• 8:24
  Danyelle: And I was also feeling excited about this new adventure I was about to, or that I was on, starting my own business, taking my spiritualism into the outer worlds.
• 8:39
  Danyelle: Sure.
• 8:40
  Danyelle: Yeah.
• 8:40
  Michelle: Witnessed in this new phase of your life.
• 8:43
  Danyelle: Vex was like, you're great.
• 8:45
  Danyelle: Let's hang out.
• 8:47
  Danyelle: And as we all know, as Californians, let's hang out, let's grab lunch, we should see each other again.
• 8:55
  Danyelle: Doesn't always mean we should actually do that.
• 8:59
  Danyelle: Right.
• 8:59
  Danyelle: It's it's just a nice thing to say.
• 9:01
  Danyelle: It is a Californian thing.
• 9:03
  Danyelle: Vex is not from California.
• 9:05
  Michelle: Okay, interesting.
• 9:06
  Danyelle: So when she said we should hang out, she meant it.
• 9:10
  Danyelle: She meant it.
• 9:11
  Danyelle: She meant it.
• 9:12
  Danyelle: You know, great, good to meet you.
• 9:15
  Danyelle: Carry on.
• 9:16
  Danyelle: I really enjoyed the conversation.
• 9:19
  Danyelle: I was really excited about the opportunity to be just like in the community with another witch.
• 9:24
  Danyelle: But I wasn't thinking about it as a friendship.
• 9:27
  Danyelle: I wasn't thinking about it as I'm gonna grow with this person.
• 9:33
  Danyelle: So this was the moment that I I understood she actually wanted to be my friend.
• 9:40
  Danyelle: And I never got to go to Queer Magic.
• 9:44
  Danyelle: I would always bend there.
• 9:46
  Danyelle: And I had an opportunity to go.
• 9:48
  Danyelle: I knew I couldn't stay for a really long time, but went, was dancing, having a great time, and left.
• 9:56
  Danyelle: Got in the car and I was like, I should something told me, aka Spirit.
• 10:02
  Danyelle: Let me go find Bex and say hi and bye.
• 10:05
  Danyelle: I hadn't seen her the whole time.
• 10:06
  Danyelle: Was like looking, but it's a big party, and she's a social butterfly and sometimes hard to catch.
• 10:12
  Danyelle: To pin down.
• 10:13
  Danyelle: Yes.
• 10:14
  Danyelle: So I I get out of the car, I go back in the party, I find her, and I'm like, hi, bye.
• 10:21
  Danyelle: I was like, I didn't see you, but I'm heading out.
• 10:24
  Danyelle: And she grabs me by the arms and she goes, What do you like to do?
• 10:30
  Danyelle: I'll do anything that you like to do.
• 10:35
  Danyelle: I was like, Oh yeah, she really means this.
• 10:38
  Danyelle: She wants to hang out.
• 10:40
  Danyelle: She's like, Do you drink?
• 10:41
  Danyelle: Do you like walks?
• 10:43
  Danyelle: Do you hike?
• 10:44
  Danyelle: Do you and I was like, Oh, I do all of those things.
• 10:47
  Danyelle: You know, I was like, I don't really hike, but you know, yeah, yeah.
• 10:50
  Danyelle: Um, and we ended up meeting at Lake Merritt.
• 10:55
  Danyelle: And yeah, just every topic there was a connection.
• 10:59
  Danyelle: There was just they was magic, right?
• 11:03
  Danyelle: Like it was so tender and so connecting and so real.
• 11:09
  Danyelle: And I think that I attribute that to our spiritualism, where we are in our lived experience.
• 11:15
  Danyelle: And I was just beautiful.
• 11:17
  Danyelle: And I remember getting to the end of that walk and being like, Oh, I love this person, like she's such a beautiful human.
• 11:26
  Danyelle: And then she left for three months on a book tour.
• 11:30
  Danyelle: And so, in my eyes, I was like, Well, you know, we'll see, but that was fun.
• 11:36
  Danyelle: Yeah.
• 11:36
  Danyelle: And of course, she called me the moment she returned and was settled.
• 11:40
  Danyelle: And you know, kind of the rest is history.
• 11:43
  Danyelle: We hung out shortly after she got back, and I talk about it as like falling into these portals when we are together, time just warps, and all of a sudden it's been five hours, and we're like, oh, we should come back to Earth and be a human again.
• 12:06
  Danyelle: I don't know if surprised is the right word, and it might be because of my own internal stuff around humans and people and friendships, but I think it still surprises me that you can fall so hard and deep.
• 12:24
  Danyelle: Just recently, I was at her house and she said something, something, something besti.
• 12:31
  Danyelle: And I melted.
• 12:33
  Danyelle: And I was like, We are besties.
• 12:37
  Danyelle: I'm just kidding.
• 12:39
  Michelle: I was like, Michelle's not gonna lie, but like this, I'm comfortable with where I stand.
• 12:45
  Danyelle: You can have other besties, but it was just really sweet, you know, in the in the time that we have been building this relationship, that's not language we use.
• 12:55
  Danyelle: Like we definitely call each other Pim and you know, partners and work, and we are really building both in our businesses and and community work, but it does really come from this place of like we get each other, we really see each other, and we we also work together.
• 13:18
  Danyelle: She's my other Cap Rising, Aries Cap Rising, and there is something about the way when you work with somebody, when you work with a friend, when you work with somebody you love, you have to show up differently.
• 13:34
  Danyelle: And so, yeah, I feel really blessed to have this.
• 13:41
  Danyelle: We were in our mid-30s, and it definitely wasn't the story I thought it would be that first night having this conversation.
• 13:52
  Danyelle: And as I said, you talked to her, and she was just like yes, like immediately.
• 13:58
  Michelle: Yeah, yeah.
• 13:59
  Michelle: I feel like there's a number of things that you brought up in relation to how in a couple short years you went from not having this person in your life to having a bestie well into adulthood.
• 14:13
  Michelle: And I think there's a few things that are interesting.
• 14:16
  Michelle: One is that Benny, your partner, was the one to pass you the listing.
• 14:21
  Michelle: And granted, there was a professional bent to it, but it's the people who love you sort of looking out for you and knowing when there's something maybe missing in your life or when there could be this opening for community.
• 14:32
  Michelle: And so it doesn't always have to be you doing all of the work, which I love that that's part of the origin story.
• 14:40
  Michelle: Also, that she was the one to be a bit more forward and decided.
• 14:44
  Michelle: And I think you had mentioned that some of your quote unquote stuff around other people, how much you value yourself.
• 14:53
  Michelle: Am I a person that's interesting enough to draw you in as a friend or worth that effort?
• 14:59
  Michelle: And so maybe I'm not going to make the first step.
• 15:02
  Michelle: So, in this storyline, it sounds like you feel really fortunate, but that there was another party who felt that same alignment and really continued to reassure you like I am interested in you, and you did finally pick up on the signs that it was more than just working together.
• 15:25
  Michelle: But that shared interest was part of the gateway there.
• 15:30
  Michelle: And also, I know when I started grad school, we had to stand up in front of the room and introduce ourselves.
• 15:36
  Michelle: And I thought, wow, it's been a long time since I've had to stand up in any room and introduce myself.
• 15:42
  Michelle: And I can say whatever I want, and then everyone just believed me.
• 15:47
  Michelle: And so now you're starting new friendships from this place of getting to say who you are today, as opposed to carrying that baggage of maybe who you were growing up or what was sort of put upon you growing up.
• 16:00
  Michelle: And so I love that too, that richness that can come from adult friendships because you're more embodied and maybe you know a bit more of who you are, and now you're stepping into this space where I'm witchy, I do tarot, and and then finding people with those similar interests.
• 16:16
  Danyelle: Absolutely.
• 16:17
  Danyelle: And as you were saying that, I was like, oh, there is a little bit of a like, of course, right?
• 16:24
  Danyelle: Because I'm not covering, I'm not pretending, I'm not in the shadow of my younger self.
• 16:30
  Danyelle: We talked a lot last season about outgrowing friendships, drifting in friendships, and I do carry some maybe thicker armor around the ways in which I build relationships because of hurt, because of harm.
• 16:48
  Danyelle: And I own that some of the hurt and harm is also coming from the fact that I wasn't in a place to say, that's actually who I am, and I feel really comfortable in that.
• 17:00
  Danyelle: Right.
• 17:00
  Danyelle: There are multiple times when I'm with Bex and we both have like this same kind of spiritual experience, or we say something that I think if people heard, they might say, huh?
• 17:12
  unknown: Yeah.
• 17:13
  Danyelle: But we get each other.
• 17:14
  Danyelle: And there, so there's not that covering, there's not that facade.
• 17:18
  Danyelle: It's just come authentic and as you are, and you will be held.
• 17:23
  Michelle: Yeah.
• 17:24
  Michelle: And the other thing that I want to mention too is most of us are familiar with Malcolm Gladwell's 10,000 hours for the I think he wrote about it in the tipping point, where it's the amount of time that you put in to become a master of something.
• 17:37
  Michelle: I think they say when it comes to friendship, it's like 20 hours for like a solid acquaintance and 60 for a friend, and then more than 200 to get really close.
• 17:47
  Michelle: And so it sounds like through the work interactions, you had cleared that 20, but then you started to put in the time.
• 17:54
  Michelle: But the other thing that I think is important is you mentioned a few times that it was magic, that there is a genot sequoi around the ways in which you met, how you experienced each other when you met, the softness, the ease.
• 18:10
  Michelle: And I want to call that out because we should all be looking for that.
• 18:13
  Michelle: That magic, that inexplainable energy that you share in space with another person, and it might be in passing, but it's worth holding on to.
• 18:25
  Michelle: Yes.
• 18:26
  Michelle: I love it when you approve of the things that I say.
• 18:29
  Michelle: Oh, he's like, yes, gold star.
• 18:31
  Danyelle: As somebody who is deeply spiritual, and I talk about it all the time.
• 18:35
  Danyelle: Like, I'm energy, right?
• 18:37
  Danyelle: Yes.
• 18:38
  Danyelle: I am that person who's like, no, I don't want to do that thing, or no, I don't like that person, or it feels weird in here.
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 18:45
  Danyelle: And I didn't always have that language.
• 18:46
  Danyelle: And now I'm a witch.
• 18:49
  Danyelle: And so I love this because we all have that in us.
• 18:53
  Danyelle: We all can connect via energy.
• 18:55
  Danyelle: And you do feel it, right?
• 18:57
  Danyelle: You do feel it in these moments when we're not so connected to the grind, so connected to our phones, when you are embodied, when you are coming from this inner place, and all of a sudden you're like, oh, yes.
• 19:14
  Danyelle: Yeah.
• 19:16
  Michelle: That then it feels right.
• 19:19
  Danyelle: Aligned.
• 19:20
  Danyelle: Aligned.
• 19:22
  Danyelle: Synergy.
• 19:22
  Danyelle: Sparkle.
• 19:24
  Michelle: Ideal.
• 19:26
  Michelle: Interestingly, when we introduced this topic to each other, I started thinking, what are the recent experiences I've had with adult friendship?
• 19:34
  Michelle: And I don't have that same story necessarily of the sort of like quick magic in 2022 as well.
• 19:44
  Michelle: Have a two-year-old.
• 19:45
  Michelle: We're sort of still in the depths of COVID, but kind of easing up a bit and starting to go out.
• 19:51
  Michelle: Our class at Haas was the first to come back from being remote during that time.
• 19:56
  Michelle: And I was suffering from imposter syndrome.
• 20:01
  Michelle: I think I, as a new mother, I absolutely had a smattering of postpartum depression.
• 20:07
  Michelle: My job had really changed.
• 20:10
  Michelle: I knew I wanted to step up, but I wasn't exactly sure how.
• 20:13
  Michelle: I also enrolled in a coaching program.
• 20:15
  Michelle: My daughter started at a nursery school co-op where a lot of the mothers, primarily mothers, were stay at home and really participating in the children's life.
• 20:25
  Michelle: And so in each of these new areas, I was like, here I am in this coaching program, and everybody's like spiritual and has these communities, and surely they know more about this than I do.
• 20:36
  Michelle: I just signed up on a whim.
• 20:38
  Michelle: And going to grad school, that opportunity to stand up and introduce yourself.
• 20:43
  Michelle: It's like, here's this person who's a special ops green beret, and here is an Olympic skier.
• 20:49
  Michelle: And this person is a pediatric surgeon and has a wing named after him.
• 20:54
  Michelle: And I'm like, I'm in the wrong place.
• 20:57
  Michelle: I don't belong here.
• 20:58
  Michelle: I was like, I do sales and marketing at a furniture company, you know, and I was like, I genuinely felt like I don't know why I'm here.
• 21:09
  Michelle: And because I was in school and working when I was at the co-op, there were communities forming as well.
• 21:15
  Michelle: And of course, I was in the DEI group at school, and there was only one other person who then went on maternity leave.
• 21:22
  Michelle: So I wasn't really making friends there.
• 21:24
  Michelle: And I felt so out of practice and a bit othered, especially when it came to the co-op and the coaching community as well, of like almost feeling like it should be other people who reach out to me.
• 21:39
  Michelle: So those are some recent places, and they were all, of course, sort of converging at the same time as I'm emerging from the cocoon of motherhood and work from home.
• 21:49
  Michelle: I think it's important to name, too, that a lot of our friendships do, as adults, originate from the workplace, and we're not going into work in the same way anymore.
• 21:58
  Michelle: And many of my friends left.
• 22:00
  Michelle: San Francisco, or we were becoming parents themselves, which had them going off onto their own.
• 22:06
  Michelle: So just I think that experience is really common.
• 22:10
  Michelle: And one of the things that you brought up that had the benefit of Bex being the one to reach out to you was just holding on to this idea of whether or not you're interesting enough if you're like cool enough to be a part of the mom group or what have you.
• 22:29
  Michelle: And really, yeah, it stops you from reaching out and it stops other people from reaching out to you.
• 22:34
  Michelle: And what I actually did end up realizing in grad school is that I have thought about myself as the sidekick for a very long time.
• 22:44
  Michelle: That I look at the other people in my lives as the main character, and that I'm, you know, if I'm being honest, I'm the fat girl on the side and I'm very friendly, and I'll tell a joke, and I'll take your leftovers, but I am not the main character.
• 23:01
  Michelle: And when I started changing the way that I showed up in a room, I started wearing brighter lipstick and brighter colors and holding my head up and acting like I belonged.
• 23:13
  Michelle: Like truly, I hate to say it because it's such a trope, but fake it till you make it.
• 23:19
  Michelle: People really started responding to that energy.
• 23:22
  Michelle: And I got a lot of feedback that people were wanting my attention.
• 23:27
  Michelle: And here I was thinking nobody cared.
• 23:30
  Michelle: And so I would keep to myself.
• 23:32
  Michelle: And I don't know that it how fair it is to say I'm hurting people's feelings, but I am staying in my cocoon and not sharing what I have to offer because I'm so invested in these feelings of unworthiness.
• 23:44
  Danyelle: I mean, and not so far away from my experience.
• 23:49
  Danyelle: And yes, I did have the benefit of Bex, but I was like, this person doesn't actually want to hang out with me.
• 23:55
  Danyelle: People be saying that.
• 23:56
  Danyelle: What do I have to offer?
• 23:58
  Danyelle: Who am I?
• 23:59
  Danyelle: I like to be at home.
• 24:01
  Danyelle: You can't make friends at home.
• 24:04
  Danyelle: There are all of the stories that we tell ourselves.
• 24:07
  Danyelle: And as I'm listening to you talk about, oh, I oftentimes feel like a sidekick.
• 24:12
  Danyelle: And I'm like, oh yes, it's like we don't ever see ourselves as others see us.
• 24:21
  Danyelle: Correct.
• 24:21
  Danyelle: There is not a world in which you are ever a sidekick and not the main character, at least in my story.
• 24:29
  Michelle: I've been told so many times to this day that the first impression people have of me is they're scared of me.
• 24:37
  Michelle: That there's like a like an intensity or a severity about the way that I am just standalone.
• 24:45
  Michelle: Yeah.
• 24:46
  Michelle: So I don't know.
• 24:47
  Michelle: I I don't know how people perceive me clearly.
• 24:50
  Michelle: I just stay fire.
• 24:52
  unknown: Yeah.
• 24:53
  Michelle: Just simmering in the corner.
• 24:55
  Danyelle: Yeah.
• 24:56
  Danyelle: I think it's interesting.
• 24:58
  Danyelle: I'm thinking about my initial perception of you way back when, and maybe, but also knowing you now, sure.
• 25:06
  Danyelle: We're layered.
• 25:07
  Danyelle: And I think that is really this conversation, right?
• 25:10
  Danyelle: Beck saw me and immediately was like, this is a person I want to, yeah, right.
• 25:16
  unknown: Heavy.
• 25:17
  Michelle: Heavy.
• 25:18
  Michelle: Thank you, Andre.
• 25:20
  Danyelle: And I was like over here, just like, oh my gosh, I made$200.
• 25:28
  Danyelle: You know, like and I've talked about it, like internally, uh often most of us are our worst critics.
• 25:37
  Danyelle: And so in that moment, in my head, I was just happy I didn't fail.
• 25:43
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 25:44
  Danyelle: And she's over here, like, that's such a magical being, and I want to be her friend.
• 25:49
  Danyelle: And I think, right, this is you saying, Oh, I'm the sidekick, and I'm like, huh?
• 25:54
  unknown: Yeah, I know.
• 25:55
  Danyelle: So's who?
• 25:56
  Michelle: And says me.
• 25:57
  Michelle: Yeah.
• 25:58
  Danyelle: You know, and what we're really speaking to is maybe why it is so challenging to make friends as adults is because of our own shit.
• 26:08
  Michelle: Perfect segue, my darling.
• 26:11
  Michelle: Because putting on our therapist and coach hats, how do we get out of that?
• 26:16
  Michelle: Like, how do we enter the room and be the kind of person that is open to not only receiving people into our space, but also helping other people to feel seen and be the bex of the situation where it's like, I fucks with you and I would like to get to know you.
• 26:33
  Michelle: Um, I when I did, as a part of the MBA program, went to Australia and had to go to a networking dinner where I knew not a single soul and I'm jet lagged.
• 26:45
  Michelle: It's the last thing I want to do.
• 26:47
  Michelle: But I really did psych myself up before I went in because I'm paying for this experience, like with a capital P and it will be I stay paying.
• 26:56
  Michelle: How can I get the most out of it?
• 26:57
  Michelle: And I really came in with my shoulders back and I belong here.
• 27:02
  Michelle: And by the end of it, folks thought that I went to that university in Sydney that I was a host because of the way I was greeting people.
• 27:10
  Michelle: And it is so powerful to put on a smile and be excited to see people.
• 27:17
  Michelle: It feels so good when you walk into a room and people are like, oh my God, you're here, whether or not they're your bestie or not.
• 27:25
  Michelle: It's it is such a gift you can give someone to be genuinely happy to see them.
• 27:30
  Michelle: And then you're sharing, even as I'm telling the story, it's like I'm sitting up straight, I'm opening my chest.
• 27:36
  Michelle: It's an openness, a welcoming.
• 27:38
  Michelle: And it is sometimes a fake it until you make it.
• 27:42
  Michelle: Like the your storytelling in your head is like, this is embarrassing.
• 27:47
  Michelle: You're embarrassing.
• 27:48
  Michelle: You don't know what you're doing.
• 27:49
  Michelle: Everyone's gonna know you don't belong here.
• 27:51
  Michelle: And I really love to test that.
• 27:53
  Michelle: Is that true?
• 27:54
  Michelle: Is that true that I don't belong here?
• 27:56
  Michelle: And I can't even say nine times out of ten, ten times out of ten, it is not true.
• 28:01
  Michelle: Because in that very same MBA class, they were talking about running for student government, and I'm packing up my bag in the last row because you know that's where I was, and not paying attention.
• 28:12
  Michelle: And I ended up being class president, co-president with my other good friend.
• 28:17
  Michelle: And so I did belong there.
• 28:19
  Michelle: And it turns out that there are a lot of engineers, but there weren't a lot of folks like me who are higher EQ, and that is a leadership quality.
• 28:28
  Michelle: And now all of a sudden, I do have something special to offer or to share that feels unique or like a gift.
• 28:35
  Danyelle: Yeah.
• 28:36
  Danyelle: And to me, what you're speaking to is our parts.
• 28:41
  Danyelle: And we're gonna dive into internal family systems a little bit here in terms of what are my parts.
• 28:50
  Danyelle: I always have to include our inner children in that.
• 28:54
  Danyelle: Sometimes they're blended there.
• 28:55
  Danyelle: And so, what are the stories that they learned that we are carrying?
• 29:00
  Danyelle: And what you're saying is like walking into that room, me walking into that first vendor market, yeah, being like, I'm never gonna, no one likes me and I'm a bad tarot reader.
• 29:12
  Michelle: And why would they give me money?
• 29:15
  Michelle: Exactly.
• 29:16
  Michelle: Everyone else knows what they're doing except for me.
• 29:18
  Danyelle: Yeah, and our parts are there to protect us.
• 29:23
  Danyelle: My parts were telling me all of these things.
• 29:26
  Danyelle: This person is just having a nice conversation with you because I don't want to be hurt.
• 29:32
  Danyelle: I don't want to be let down, right?
• 29:34
  Danyelle: And so I think it's important to name yes, it's our shit that we're bringing into it, but it's also the protector parts from past experiences, past traumas, things that have left scars on the younger versions of ourselves.
• 29:50
  Danyelle: That's why we have these parts that try to protect us.
• 29:53
  Danyelle: And so for you, walking into that room and or even standing up and introducing yourself, little Mish was like, girl, get out.
• 30:03
  Danyelle: We know we stay on top, and this is not the room.
• 30:06
  unknown: Yeah.
• 30:06
  Danyelle: And I think it's important for us to understand what those parts need to shift those narratives, to shift the story, because we believe what we say, not what we see.
• 30:20
  Danyelle: Everything that Bex did the first night we had a conversation would have made me believe that she wanted to hang out with me.
• 30:29
  Danyelle: But what I heard, I listened to myself and I said, I gotta go.
• 30:37
  Danyelle: And I say this often in therapy is remember that we believe what we say, not what we see.
• 30:45
  Danyelle: And if we can change what we say, we start to believe that.
• 30:49
  Michelle: Yes.
• 30:50
  Michelle: I do want to take this exact moment to invite you to consider what the narrative is.
• 30:56
  Michelle: When you're walking into a networking event or a new room, you're introducing yourself, when you're doing pickup at your kids' school, what is the story that you're telling yourself and inviting you to change it?
• 31:08
  Michelle: And it costs nothing.
• 31:10
  Michelle: And the more you tell yourself you belong, I'm friendly, I'm interesting, I have something to offer, you will start looking for proof that's true.
• 31:19
  Michelle: And you'll carry yourself differently, like I said previously.
• 31:23
  Michelle: And I want to close the loop on my story of the three different rooms I stepped into and felt like I didn't belong.
• 31:31
  Michelle: I think the things that really changed it for me was at school inviting other people to go to the park after, after pickup, because you know, we picked up our kids at like 2:30.
• 31:43
  Michelle: What are you gonna do?
• 31:44
  Michelle: Inviting other people and making friends in that way, doing a couple of the work days, even though I didn't have any time to spare, but I knew how important it was to meet the kids and meet the family at my grad school program.
• 31:58
  Michelle: Even if I was exhausted and had a paper to write, I would still hang out with people after class and go out for drinks or karaoke or wherever it was.
• 32:07
  Michelle: And so it is pushing yourself sometimes to put yourself out there, even if and when you're an introvert, making sure you take care of yourself, of course, and and rest, but also that you find those moments where you can put yourself out there and be known and be seen, because a lot of times those parts that Danielle was talking about, you're protecting yourself, but unfortunately, you're also protecting yourself from the relationships that could come.
• 32:38
  Michelle: One of the things that can be part of the awkwardness around entering the room or those fears and anxiety is this fear of rejection.
• 32:47
  Michelle: And one of the things that's interesting is we no longer are being faced with bears outside the cave, as it were, or the things early ancestors were facing, and yet our body doesn't necessarily differentiate between that feeling of fear or terror, as it were.
• 33:06
  Michelle: For some, entering a room full of strangers is truly terrifying.
• 33:10
  Michelle: And when you ask yourself, what is the worst thing that could happen?
• 33:14
  Michelle: No one talks to me, somebody gives me a weird look, even if it was as bad as somebody said something horrible about you and you overheard it.
• 33:22
  Michelle: That question of could I handle it?
• 33:24
  Michelle: Would I survive?
• 33:26
  Michelle: How would I handle it?
• 33:27
  Michelle: And sometimes going back to parts work, asking yourself and not overriding that part of you that's trying to protect you and pretending like it's not there, but acknowledging it.
• 33:37
  Michelle: Wow, thank you for keeping me safe.
• 33:39
  Michelle: That part might have been formed when you were a little kid getting teased on the on the what is it called?
• 33:45
  Michelle: The playground.
• 33:46
  Michelle: Thank you.
• 33:47
  Michelle: Um it's so far away.
• 33:50
  Michelle: Um, that part was in place for a reason and just being like, oh, but by the way, I'm 40 and I can keep you safe.
• 33:57
  Michelle: But what do you need to feel good about this?
• 34:00
  Michelle: And so running through that scenario, that rejection scenario, oh, you know what?
• 34:05
  Michelle: If that happened, we can leave.
• 34:07
  Michelle: If it doesn't feel good, we're allowed to leave.
• 34:09
  Michelle: Or I would actually feel great if I brought my best friend Danielle with me and she was my partner in crime and my ride or die for this event, so that I can have that little bit of extra confidence as I go to meet all these new people, or what have you, or knowing that she's in my pocket.
• 34:25
  Michelle: Hey, I'm a little nervous tonight.
• 34:26
  Michelle: Can you be on text alert for if I need to pick me up?
• 34:30
  Michelle: And the number of times that I've gotten those beautiful affirmations of like, you're amazing, you can do this.
• 34:38
  Michelle: It does help you go in a bit stronger and with your head held high.
• 34:42
  Michelle: But I just think it's so important to ask ourselves and check in is this real?
• 34:48
  Michelle: Can I handle it?
• 34:49
  Michelle: And what do I need to feel good about entering this situation?
• 34:53
  Danyelle: You're really speaking to that shift in narrative.
• 34:58
  Danyelle: I talk about it through the analogy of we have all of our parts on a bus and we're driving, you know, down the road of life.
• 35:08
  Danyelle: And sometimes those parts, those younger versions of ourselves, grab the keys or grab the wheel.
• 35:15
  Danyelle: And all of a sudden we're like, where are we going?
• 35:17
  Danyelle: Yeah.
• 35:18
  Danyelle: And it is this, is this true?
• 35:20
  Danyelle: Is my anxiety around walking in the room is this part that is recalling a bad situation, a harmful situation on the playground?
• 35:33
  Danyelle: Is it this?
• 35:34
  Danyelle: And can we maybe pull over and give some nourishing and maybe some night quill?
• 35:44
  Danyelle: Allowing that part to really just like shh, yeah, I got you.
• 35:50
  Danyelle: Yeah, you're safe.
• 35:51
  Danyelle: Yeah, as you said, there's not a bear.
• 35:54
  Michelle: And so being able to support the nervous system in resetting around that out loud, we are safe, and doing it enough times that you're rewiring it, that it does take practice.
• 36:09
  Michelle: The very first time it might not work or be perfect, but you get to try again.
• 36:14
  Danyelle: Yeah, and as you said, leave.
• 36:17
  Danyelle: Yeah, you can leave if it's the right place for you.
• 36:20
  Danyelle: And I think that is also really healing.
• 36:22
  Danyelle: As children, we don't get to leave.
• 36:24
  Michelle: Yep.
• 36:25
  Danyelle: I had to go to school.
• 36:26
  Danyelle: Yeah, I had to still show up.
• 36:29
  Michelle: Right.
• 36:30
  Danyelle: And what you're speaking to is no.
• 36:33
  Michelle: No, you get to leave, you get to listen to yourself and have that be honored.
• 36:38
  Michelle: And letting go of the outcome.
• 36:41
  Michelle: When you met Bex, you were looking for community, but also someone to work with in this space.
• 36:48
  Michelle: And you weren't necessarily expecting a new bestie or a new friend, even.
• 36:53
  Michelle: And I think there's some beauty in that of not knowing who you'll meet or where they might fit into your life.
• 36:59
  Michelle: And I think going in with that sort of openness versus a rigid expectation also makes you more approachable because there are also those friends that are gripping so tightly that it is like, okay, like I do like you, but this is a lot.
• 37:16
  Michelle: And you can inadvertently push someone away because you're trying to control or force something that's not quite ready yet.
• 37:24
  Danyelle: Yeah.
• 37:25
  Danyelle: Naming the importance of presence.
• 37:28
  Danyelle: You're naming how, in some ways, I was very present with Beck.
• 37:34
  Danyelle: I was just shooting the shit.
• 37:36
  Danyelle: Yep, this is what's happening in the world, in the spiritual community, in Oakland, in the Bay Area.
• 37:42
  Danyelle: I wasn't thinking about this is gonna be the person three, four years later, we're building and doing monthly events together.
• 37:50
  Danyelle: And so it does lessen that pressure.
• 37:54
  Danyelle: And when there's not that pressure of what is the finish line?
• 37:58
  Danyelle: What is this going to be?
• 38:00
  Danyelle: You can just be yourself, you can be authentic, you can be raw, you can just be open to what the possibilities are.
• 38:07
  Michelle: Right.
• 38:08
  Michelle: And in terms of making friends as an adult, we look forward to introducing, at least in the Bay Area for starters, meetups.
• 38:17
  Michelle: It might be a bit down the road, but that's part of the community that we look forward to building.
• 38:23
  Michelle: And this isn't necessarily the podcast where we are like, and then do this, and then do this.
• 38:28
  Michelle: We're more talking about the nervous system, your mental health, the way that you support yourself going into these situations, and also offering, if you are a person who hasn't made or held adult friendships, offering this container as a place to think about why and how you might bring something new to the table moving forward.
• 38:50
  Danyelle: We've said it a few times, but it's questioning that narrative.
• 38:54
  Danyelle: Is this real?
• 38:56
  Danyelle: And do I have evidence to back it up?
• 38:59
  Danyelle: Or is this a story I've been told because a part is trying to keep me safe and I can do it differently now?
• 39:08
  Michelle: Doubling down on what you just said about changing the narrative, that you can remind yourself how much you have to offer.
• 39:15
  Michelle: You are interesting, and it's worth it.
• 39:19
  Michelle: And you deserve to make new friends and meet new people, and they'll be lucky to have you.
• 39:24
  Michelle: Yeah.
• 39:25
  Michelle: Is there anything special that bubbled to the surface for you this episode?
• 39:30
  Danyelle: I'm realizing you said something really beautiful towards the beginning of this episode about kind of like being yourself, right?
• 39:39
  Danyelle: As you evolve and get older, you get to be yourself.
• 39:42
  Danyelle: You get to show up in these ways that you didn't in your teens, 20s, and early 30s.
• 39:48
  Danyelle: And I'm really reflecting on some really beautiful friendships that I've made in my late 30s and into my 40s that feel surprising, but that I'm like, oh yeah, we can do this.
• 40:03
  Danyelle: It is possible.
• 40:05
  Danyelle: And that is to me, the bubble, the key is being myself.
• 40:11
  Danyelle: Talking about my witchiness, talking about my being a radicalized human, talking about being an anti-capitalist, not pretending to be someone I'm not.
• 40:25
  Danyelle: What about for you?
• 40:29
  Michelle: I'm proud of myself.
• 40:31
  Michelle: And when talking about that period of time where all these new situations were coming at me and when I was in a vulnerable mental health space, I'm glad that I didn't just show up and do the bare minimum, that I continued to find my way through and make some friends who I know will be lifelong friends and help others to do the same, I think, just by the way that I that I show up.
• 41:03
  Michelle: And we're actually sitting at our good friend Natalie's house right now, who I met through the co-op nursery school, because we met at one of those school functions and laughed our asses off.
• 41:15
  Michelle: And I was like, okay, yes, this person is a person I can be close to.
• 41:21
  Michelle: And that has been so lovely beyond just the ability to be yourself, but being in the same life phase as somebody means that we can go to the park and it is 20 times, 20,000 times better because you get to share it with a friend and laugh and not be doing it alone.
• 41:38
  Michelle: So that's been a really rich part of making friends for me as an adult.
• 41:45
  Michelle: Will you pull us a card?
• 41:47
  Danyelle: I will.
• 41:48
  Danyelle: All right.
• 41:50
  Danyelle: Adult friendships, complicated, complex, but doable.
• 41:59
  Danyelle: All right.
• 42:01
  Danyelle: We've got the six of pentacles.
• 42:03
  Danyelle: It did come out in reverse.
• 42:05
  Danyelle: So I'm gonna, I'm sitting with it as I'm I'm thinking about it.
• 42:08
  Danyelle: The six of pentacles is all about reciprocity, it's about give and take.
• 42:14
  Danyelle: Often, when it comes out in reverse, I think about this as not being able to receive the inability to uh have something given to you without you needing to give back or without you needing to somebody is like, oh, I really like your shirt, and you're like, Oh, I like your hair, yeah.
• 42:36
  Danyelle: But the just like received in reverse, the Six of Pentacles for me is often a hesitancy to hold the gift, to hold the gift, and so as I think about this episode, how are you being resistant to holding the gift of adult friendship?
• 42:59
  Danyelle: How am I often a little arm's length and maybe not fully open to those possibilities and those potentials?
• 43:12
  Danyelle: Pentacles is connected to the element earth and it is building, it's the foundation, it's our bodies.
• 43:17
  Danyelle: I think about pentacle energy as friendship, as platonic love energy.
• 43:22
  Danyelle: And so this six of pentacles in reverse is really inviting you, offering you this opportunity to say, why am I feeling that hesitancy?
• 43:32
  Danyelle: What are the stories I'm telling?
• 43:34
  Danyelle: What are the stories that I'm telling myself?
• 43:37
  Danyelle: And where's there room for me to be open to receiving without feeling like I owe somebody or I have to give something back?
• 43:45
  Danyelle: Love that.
• 43:46
  Danyelle: Thank you.
• 43:46
  Danyelle: We'll see you next week.
• 43:48
  Danyelle: Bye.
• 43:48
  Danyelle: If today's episode meant something to you, share it with a friend.
• 43:52
  Michelle: Find us on Instagram at the Third Thing Pod, and everything we're building lives at www.thethirdthingpod.com.
• 44:00
  Michelle: Episode notes, our workbooks, all of it.
• 44:03
  SPEAKER_00: And if you're ready to go deeper, real community, monthly events, early access, and to join the group chat, we're on Patreon.
• 44:11
  SPEAKER_00: The link is in the show notes.
• 44:13
  Michelle: If you're loving the show, a rating and review genuinely helps more people find us.
• 44:18
  Michelle: It takes two minutes and it means everything.