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Learn the Basics of Body Recomposition · HER

0:07
Pam Peeke, MD: Hi, I am Dr.
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Pam Peak, and This is episode 558 of the Bold And the Brave, her Podcast.
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Now, today I'm joined by our most favorite.
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Nutrition expert who knows everything there is to know about the human
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body, and she has been at this for so long And we have had her on.
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She's our go-to.
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It is the one, the only Dr.
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Susan Kleiner.
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Hey, you.
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Susan M. Kleiner, PhD:
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Hey, Pam, how are you?
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Pam Peeke, MD: What up?
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You
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know, like, what up?
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So for all of you out there, she's written more books and my God, I wasn't even alive
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when half these things were just kidding.
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But, um, like, oh my gosh, just.
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Fantastic.
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The new power eating is one of my most favorite of all.
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and it really gets into what a lot of what we're gonna be talking about today.
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You've got to run on over to her website, Dr.
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S, so DRS as in Sam, Kleiner, K-L-E-I-N-E r.com,
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because your mind will be blown away.
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She's the owner and founder of High Performance Nutrition, and she's a
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globally recognized trailblazer in nutrition and human performance.
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Now, today, the challenge is.
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today we're gonna be talking about something I'll put money on that the grand
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majority of you don't know anything about.
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Okay, And what is that?
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That is something called body decomposition.
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What?
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So you know what body composition is.
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we look at our body composition.
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You stand on one of those scales, or you do one of the more fancy ways of being
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able to estimate, your body composition.
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And what you're gonna find is fat, muscle, bone, water, is measured as well.
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And you look at all the percentages or you look at the actual amounts.
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in pounds, et cetera.
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And you say, okay, well that's where I am.
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And then you go, oh man, this does not look good.
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if it's one of these apps that has like the red zone And then it's got the yellow.
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Seriously, I'm actually using one like that and it's like, I
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feel like I'm driving, you know, am I gonna hit a red light here?
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So the red is like, whoa.
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Okay.
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That's not good.
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Where, wherever, whatever we're looking at, because many of these
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apps look at visceral fat, and as you know, you need visceral fat.
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That's very important, but too much of it is extremely dangerous.
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We don't want that.
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So that's a red zone kind of situation.
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We gotta watch that.
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So we got that.
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Now let's just say you look at those numbers and it's like looking a little
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parsimonious, say in terms of good stuff here, one way or the other.
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Okay, so now what do you do?
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do you and I quote, go on a diet?
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do you, resort to extreme stuff like, I'm just gonna move into a gym.
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I'm just never leaving.
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That's it.
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here.
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Susan M. Kleiner, PhD:
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That would be okay with me.
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Pam Peeke, MD: See you need help there.
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There are groups for people like you, Sue.
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I'm right there with you, man.
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I'd be sitting there on the, on the weight bench going, This is where I'm sleeping
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tonight.
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Okay.
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You find, why don't you go to the stretching pad and go to sleep?
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but seriously, that's exactly.
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what a lot of people do, they just go from, oh my God, to extreme.
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And they know the trip by now.
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Come on now.
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Has that ever worked?
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No.
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so.
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A new concept has been born of an old concept, And that came
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from the bodybuilding, era.
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So let's go back to the history of these words.
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Body recomposition.
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What does that mean?
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Where did it come from?
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Sue
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Susan M. Kleiner, PhD:
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So, yeah, back in the day
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Pam Peeke, MD: Oh, back.
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Oh God, I hate that.
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Susan M. Kleiner, PhD:
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when we, when we think about the physique athletes, when we think
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about bodybuilding as way underground.
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and especially bodybuilding for women, even, more subterranean.
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the question always was I can get to a certain point, of physique
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the way I look, my muscles showing.
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Kind of, but can I get what we call ripped?
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Can I really have my muscles pop out?
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How do I do that?
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And the concept was, can we make our, I mean, these are the words, right?
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I want my skin to look paper thin.
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obviously it wasn't, but it's an image so that you look like your muscles are
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right at the surface, that there's no, what we call subcutaneous fat, that
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there's nothing between, you know, kind of your skin and your muscles popping out.
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And in order to do that, there had to be sort of the last layer.
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Of fat had to go, And so we called that when they were right at the margin.
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Recomp, how can you get rid of that last layer of fat?
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So now you've got somebody who is, it's hard to say very fit when
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we're talking about the bodybuilding community And the eating And the,
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strategies it take to look like that.
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however they are.
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So close, but not quite.
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And that's kind of where Recomp came from.
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Where can I find the last layer so that I supplant that last
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little bit of fat with muscle
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Pam Peeke, MD: So the concept of recomposition is that you
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could take whatever your body composition is at that moment and
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you can, hold onto or build muscle.
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At the same time, you're also taking down fat.
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So what you're actually doing is recreating, as it were, to a certain
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degree, your body composition based upon where you're starting, whatever your start
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point is.
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Okay?
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So that's what the actual word means.
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Susan M. Kleiner, PhD:
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Right.
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So yeah.
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Can I hang onto my muscle and lose more fat or can I gain more muscle
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and lose fat at the same time?
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That's the ultimate question.
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Can we grow and shrink at the same moment?
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Pam Peeke, MD: So the arrows are going up and down.
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Okay, so you're doing both.
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Alright, so that being said, that's what these people did And
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we all know have used extreme.
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diets for years.
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cause they have to, if they're gonna do, their shows and all the rest of it.
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And this was something that's been kicking around and, kind of very well-known,
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familiar with, the bodybuilding community.
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And then it's.
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All of a sudden it's had this very interesting resurgence.
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over the course of the last, dozen years or so, and actually
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so much so that scholarly studies.
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Are now taking place and being published, about this entire phenomenon
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because, there's new knowledge about the human body and body
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composition that we can now leverage.
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And that includes nutrition, which we'll talk about, and physical activity.
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How to optimize both without driving yourself insane.
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And that's a short drive.
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Um, so, so you've got that going on at the same time.
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Guess what folks?
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Were you aware of the fact that this year there were no top diets
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of 2026 The diet thing is dead.
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Dead.
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put a fork in it, it's gone.
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So if that's gone and you want to be able to, get healthier,
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well, people are now beginning to.
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Pivot to a more optimal body composition because in, we now understand that the
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muscle And the brain communicate that fat and muscle And the brain communicate.
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That the bone is thrown in there.
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At the same time.
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These are all organ systems, believe it or not, and these are networked,
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at an extraordinarily, intricate level so that now we see that by optimizing
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muscle, for instance, for health, no matter where you're starting,
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whether you're an elite athlete or you're just, somebody out there.
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Okay.
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When you do that.
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You're able to increase the quality of your life, your health span, and
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actually your longevity as well.
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So how cool is that?
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Suddenly, you know, it's so interesting.
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It's like people looked at their body like it's a bunch of body parts.
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And then they walked away and they said, oh, well I have to make sure my brain is
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okay for longevity and my heart, and make sure my blood sugar, but wait a minute.
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Whoa, those body parts.
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Are critical to being able to achieve that goal.
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So that's where this whole issue of recomposition came from.
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So I want you all to think about yourselves as sort of a Michelangelo.
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Okay.
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You see Each's kind of looking at this big slab of marble And it's saying,
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Hmm, how can I try to optimize?
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How can I create something That is reasonable and realistic?
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Now, come on.
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Now, you're not gonna turn yourself into a Serena Williams.
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That's not happening.
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Only Serena could do that, but.
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What if you could just optimize what you got.
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And by doing that, you know what you wanna do is grow muscle and,
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minimize your fat load, most importantly, your visceral fat load.
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So Dr.
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Sue, you're the expert on manipulating, for instance,
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dietary intake doing all of this.
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And I'm just curious.
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how does one look at recomposition from, the standpoint of how you
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nourish yourself, as well as exercise?
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Exercise we'll talk about in a second, but let's go to, I'm looking
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at one of your favorite chapters in that power book, managing Fat.
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I loved that.
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Susan M. Kleiner, PhD:
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So, what I like about this growing conversation of recomposition is that
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it doesn't work if you really restrict.
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Your diet, your energy intake, your protein intake, even your carbohydrate
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intake, and your fat intake, and all the nutrients that we need.
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If the concept is to grow at the same time that you're minimizing or
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decreasing your fat, you can't starve your body because at that point, all
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you're doing is losing fat and muscle.
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So every time we gain.
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We typically gain.
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this was always the dogma when we gain weight.
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Well, first of all, let's describe what weight is on a scale.
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It's the relationship of your body to gravity, right?
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It doesn't tell us anything else.
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That's all it says is that you are here on Mother Earth and This is what
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gravity does to the mass of your body.
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It shows up in this number on the scale.
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Pam Peeke, MD: Which is why you weigh nothing up there in that space capsule.
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Susan M. Kleiner, PhD:
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I know, wouldn't that be lovely?
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So, so watching that number alone never tells us what's happening.
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And what we know is whenever you lose weight almost all the time, almost all
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the time, you are losing a proportion.
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Of muscle as well as fat.
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Ideally, we wanna lose more fat than muscle, but it's always a proportion,
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and when you gain, you are gaining a proportion of muscle and fat.
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It's all working together.
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The goal is obviously if you're only looking at the scale, muscle
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should go up, fat should go down.
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However we do that.
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However, if you are really restricting.
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Energy protein, well then the proportion of muscle that you lose will be greater
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as you lose weight and as you gain weight, we do need to eat more of course.
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And that's a different kind of concept than what we're talking about right now.
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But, so the idea is how do I find the sweet spot where.
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I'm eating enough so that I hang on to the most muscle.
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And what we're seeing now is even gain some lean mass.
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And within that lean mass, especially for us ladies, is not just muscle,
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it's bone and it's our organ tissue.
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And so when we are losing.
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And we see a loss of lean body mass because we're restricting so much.
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We are also losing bone.
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And so if we could hang on to what we've got and perhaps gain and lose
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the fat that takes eating enough and a certain type of exercise so that we
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can trigger the muscle to keep working and wanting to hang in there, as well
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as eating enough protein so that we.
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Can maximize everything else that the body is trying to do to meet your goal.
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And so what we used to do only with bodybuilders.
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We, And we used to always say, you can't gain muscle and lose fat at the same time.
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The body can't be, as we say, scientifically anabolic and
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catabolic in a growth phase and a loss phase at the same time.
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That's just not the way energy works.
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However, what we are seeing, even though we're not actually measuring
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moment to moment, is that over a period of time, it actually looks
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like that if you do this well.
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Pam Peeke, MD: So something that everyone out there in the Herb Podcast land
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needs to appreciate is the fact that.
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In the old days, we'd starve ourselves.
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You know the drill, raise your hand.
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Yep.
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That's exactly what I thought.
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Everyone has gone through that.
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It's like, it's sort of intuitive.
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Well, if I'm gonna drop weight, I just stop eating.
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Okay.
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Well, they're just one small problem.
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And That is the human body's number one prerogative is survival and
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it will do anything to get you.
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Into that survival place, you do not want to trigger your body into
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doing, a rebound, in a big way.
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So I believe the literature And the experts state that, if you want to create,
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a caloric deficit, while you're also at the same time amping up your protein,
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which we're gonna get to in a second.
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Right then, the actual caloric deficit should never go beyond 300 calories.
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That ideally it's about 10% of And what you've been eating.
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So if you figure it's like 2000 calories, 10%, 200 calories.
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So 200 to 250 calorie deficit is quite safe.
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Why?
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Because it flies under the radar.
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Of the trigger,
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Susan M. Kleiner, PhD:
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Exactly.
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Pam Peeke, MD: in the human body, three hundred's beginning to push it.
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But then it depends upon how big you are.
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And like if 10% of 3000 calories is 300, well, You know, if you're
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a bigger person, in a big way.
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So what does that do?
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it, allows the body.
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To have enough of a deficit to make a dent into your fat at the same time.
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Now, pivot, da da.
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Drum roll, over to protein.
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Now I gotta tell you something about protein.
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I didn't pay much attention to it.
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For about half my life.
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You know, the good news is I was found great protein around, but I
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wasn't sitting around calculating and, trying to figure out which way is up.
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And I think a lot of that had to do with the fact that nutrition science was,
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aired on a very low level relative to like active little campers like you and
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I sue 'cause we're both very athletic.
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So, it would be like a 0.6.
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Per kilogram per body weight and um, you know, And so I never paid attention
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once, I got Hep two, what was happening in protein land, and This is the
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work of Stew Phillips and other's.
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What I began to realize was that, and This is brand new research rolling out over the
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last several years, that as you age, you need more protein for a lot of reasons.
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and you need to keep up with that protein or you're heading down
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that critical path toward frailty.
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'cause you will drop some lean body mass, that's your muscle mass, in your sixties.
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That's an age related issue that everyone.
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Undergoes.
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So you wanna bank a bunch of muscle here so that when you actually go through
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your sixties, it's like, nah, you know, it's sort of a nothing burger.
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Yes, it's going to impact athletic performance, no question.
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But is it going to significantly impair your activities of daily living?
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Hell, no.
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No, you'll be fine.
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trust me.
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Trust me.
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Um, so trust me means I've been there.
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So, um.
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now what we're looking at then is this protein issue.
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So now the numbers have changed so that it is 1.6
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grams per kilogram body weight, is a really nice sweet spot.
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So if you're, a woman who is say, 200 pounds.
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And That is very common today.
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Alright, work with me here, ladies and gentlemen.
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It's very common because 42% of women are obese in this country right now.
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Alright, so I'm not just making this stuff up.
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So if you've got 200 pounds on board and if you divide that 200 pounds by 2.2,
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you'll know what your kilograms are.
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And then if you multiply that times 1.6,
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which Sue is doing right now, I could see then you're gonna wait a minute.
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Drum roll.
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How much protein
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I could
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guess.
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Susan M. Kleiner, PhD:
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yeah, it's 145 grams a day.
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Pam Peeke, MD: Yep.
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And so now here's the next question.
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Where in the hell do I find out your 45 grams of protein?
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So now you have to become a super smart person.
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About protein.
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Now, let me tell you what happens if you don't hit 145, nobody died.
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Okay?
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If you were to like hit 120, it's like, bring it on.
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it's a hell of a lot better than what you were doing, and I know what
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you were doing because you were not doing your little protein thing.
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Susan M. Kleiner, PhD:
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Well, one little caveat
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depending on, how tall this woman is, So if this woman at 200 pounds is six
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feet tall and is maybe, 40 pounds.
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Overweight, if we wanna talk about weight, or her body composition will not be as,
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significantly higher in fat versus a woman who's 5 2 5 4 5 5 5 6 at 200 pounds.
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What we can do, because 145 grams of protein a day is a lot.
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We can say, well, based on your body composition, let's figure out
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what your protein need is based on how much lean mass you have.
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Then we're feeding what we want to feed, And we can drop the protein
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intake.
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Pam Peeke, MD: so what you're saying, and This is why I brought
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up 200 pounds, because it's one thing to be, let's go to this place.
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What if she was, five nine?
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150 pounds.
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Okay, so now, what is that, 65?
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Yeah, about 65 times.
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1.6,
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something like that.
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65 or 75, can't remember.
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then it's very reasonable.
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It is then about 120, right and right.
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And so 120, you could definitely get to, and I'll, Sue, and
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I'll both lead you down that.
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beautiful path.
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because honey, I've had to work this sucker out.
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I mean, This is like, do I eat half a cow a day?
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I'm just asking, it's like, do do I grab a goose?
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Do I, what do I do?
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like, how do you do this whole protein thing?
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And actually, it turns out it is completely manageable.
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Assuming you're not an NFL player.
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or, Michael Phelps in Olympics where, the amount of food and protein he
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had was literally through the, the poor guy had to eat like 24 7 to
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keep up.
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Susan M. Kleiner, PhD:
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it.
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He loved it.
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Pam Peeke, MD: And even with that, the guy was skinny as a rail.
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I
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mean, outside of that incredible musculature,
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uh, that he had.
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Susan M. Kleiner, PhD:
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a day.
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Yeah.
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Pam Peeke, MD: yeah, absolutely.
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No question about it.
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So let's go to this place.
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Now, I'm gonna tell you right off the bat that something magical happened.
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Stu Phillips warned me about this many, a while back when I first
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started talking to him about it.
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He said, oh, man, are you gonna feel satiated?
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and you're most triggering.
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Sweet or whatever that really gets you into a binge mode can be
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stuffed right under your nose and you're like, nah, not doing it.
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And even some of the most food addicted people.
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When they get enough protein on board, mm, it really alters their
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appetite, and food consumption.
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So I didn't quite believe that in the beginning.
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And then it was one of the first times I actually switched over to,
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I think I was swinging around 1.2,
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1.4
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for a while.
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So I went to 1.6
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OMG.
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I felt phenomenal.
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I was so satiated but not stuffed.
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There's a difference.
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In other words, my brain was like, honey, we're done for the day.
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Okay, read me, read my lips, read my brain lips we're done,
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and anything could float by.
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And I'd say, nah, whatever.
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I'm not interested.
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And it had nothing to do with discipline or grinding my teeth.
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It was like, nah, you know, I'm like really satiated right now.
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So protein is crazy with satiation,
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right?
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Susan M. Kleiner, PhD:
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It's also, I mean there's been fascinating research, Dr.
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Jose Antonio and his, students at in Florida, did this fascinating
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research with active young people.
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Of course.
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Now, always underneath all of This is that you're active, right?
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I mean, sitting on the couch and eating like, This is better, but it's not
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gonna be mission driven, let's just say.
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So,
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Pam Peeke, MD: we're not gonna optimize health that
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Susan M. Kleiner, PhD:
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so, in his study he gave three grams, four grams of protein per kilogram
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per day, and there was no weight gain.
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They did not gain fat.
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They were training, they were higher in calories than they had
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been eating, And the protein was metabolized, utilized, and there was
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no, negative side effects either.
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No kidney issues.
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Anyone who's worried about that, there's just, if you've been
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diagnosed with a kidney issue.
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Pay attention to what your physician tells you, but beyond that, if you are
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otherwise healthy, there are no negative side effects, certainly to the amounts
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of protein that we are talking about, and they will not sort of replace the
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other important foods in your diet.
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You still need to eat the fruits and vegetables, grains and
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beans, nuts and seeds and dairy.
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The important food that.
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Belongs in your diet, but not to forget that we get protein from all
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of those sources, less from some fruits and vegetables don't give
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you much grains and beans, give you a boatload And so does dairy.
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And so we start to realize that there are lots of places to get protein.
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Other than that half a cow.
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Pam Peeke, MD: Okay, now when we come back, we're gonna get
25:58
down to the practical level, where is all this protein hidden?
26:02
And we're going to figure out how you do that 120 grams a day.
27:06
And we're back.
27:08
Okay, Dr.
27:10
Sue, so I'm gonna tell you what I found.
27:12
I found, I found, and That is, Using some form of, Protein
27:18
powder most definitely helped.
27:20
it, gives me a, a really quick slam and I'm good now.
27:25
That's, just something integrated into my Whole Foods, but many
27:29
times it just works for me.
27:32
And so I love that and I will use either whey protein or I could use P Protein.
27:39
Which is also, excellent.
27:41
there are other, forms as well.
27:43
So that's a no-brainer thing.
27:46
I actually add the damn thing to my coffee in the morning.
27:49
My coffee.
27:50
Okay.
27:51
Sue work with me here.
27:53
So my coffee is so loaded with stuff.
27:56
It's like ridiculous.
27:57
So I, I, first put in and listen.
28:02
Shout out.
28:02
Shout out folks to creatine.
28:05
Creatine is absolutely one of the most essential supplements a woman
28:11
should be taking for her cognitive performance as well as for her muscles.
28:16
So it's a double, double, double.
28:19
you get a royal win-win.
28:21
So I put my five grams of creatine powder into the coffee.
28:27
And then I also put in a scoop of, my vanilla flavored whey protein
28:35
powder So, It kind of gives it that little kind of rich taste.
28:39
And then I, I have a cappuccino machine and I just crank that sucker
28:42
up and OMG, so now I have protein on board, my creatine, and of course.
28:49
I'm strategically thinking about when I'm doing my exercise, so now I'm primed
28:55
'cause creatine will help drive, that protein into the muscle, and facilitate
29:02
the ability with my weightlifting.
29:04
and such to be able to build muscle.
29:07
So that's a good thing.
29:08
So I'm thinking about this holistically.
29:11
It's not just all about nutrition.
29:13
It's like, what's the timing of my workout?
29:15
So I'll have that coffee thing And then off I go.
29:19
and I do my workout.
29:20
So now my muscles are like, bring it on, bring it on.
29:24
And of course I've had my yogurt with it and that type of thing.
29:27
I'm just sort of trying to put that together And then, Sue, let's talk
29:33
about how people can accrue protein.
29:39
from some surprising sources.
29:42
throughout the day, people blow off things like pumpkin seeds.
29:47
You get eight grams of protein,
29:49
right?
29:49
And it is,
29:50
Susan M. Kleiner, PhD:
29:50
seeds, but yes.
29:51
You do.
29:52
Pam Peeke, MD: oh man, I do pumpkin seeds, like they're going outta style.
29:55
I'm doing chia, I'm doing
29:58
Susan M. Kleiner, PhD:
29:58
Right.
29:59
Our seeds are super important every day.
30:01
Yeah.
30:02
So the, concept of Whole Foods, you know, I'm a registered dietician
30:06
And we talk about food first and use supplements when you must, and pretty
30:11
much most people I know, certainly every athlete I have ever worked with it.
30:18
becomes an important convenience.
30:22
To use protein supplementation.
30:25
It is not a requirement.
30:27
Some people can get along without it, but it is a really important
30:31
convenience And we can make it into a fun, delicious ritual like you have.
30:37
Pam and ritual is also a really important thing in our lives.
30:41
It de-stresses us.
30:42
Why should you be stressing about, oh my God, where am I
30:44
gonna get this protein from?
30:46
Now you can have something that you look forward to every day that's delicious.
30:50
It's a real treat.
30:51
And so, everyone's got different strategies for me if we're sharing
30:57
how we get our protein in, in,
30:59
the morning before my lifting workouts or everyday workouts.
31:04
I am, I love cereal And so I eat a, it's called puffed caot.
31:10
Caot is just a whole grain.
31:12
It's comes in the big bags like puffed rice does, except it's a different wheat.
31:17
You can order it online, you can find it in stores.
31:20
Anyway, it's just a plain puffed grain.
31:24
I take my cup of milk, regular cow's milk.
31:29
I like skim milk, but you can use whatever milk you want.
31:32
I put it in a shaker bottle.
31:34
In that shaker bottle goes a scoop of whey protein.
31:38
My creatine, a little bit of collagen in fact, and even a little bit of a fiber.
31:47
Supplement goes in there as well.
31:49
I shake all of that up and I pour it over my cereal in the morning.
31:54
And I have my coffee separate because I'm kind of a coffee nerd and I like it black
31:59
and just drink it the way I drink it.
32:02
But in that space, yeah, I get and of I put fruit on there And so, there's
32:09
many ways to skin a cat as they say.
32:11
So that's how I get my protein.
32:14
but.
32:15
the areas where you can get protein, and one of the things about protein
32:19
that we're finding, especially as we age, is that eating it in small.
32:27
Smaller sort of, portions throughout the day.
32:31
Let's say 5 25 gram portions a day.
32:35
So you've got three meals and two snacks, and every time you're eating a snack,
32:40
you're having a good slug of protein.
32:42
The body uses it better.
32:45
it's not not used, it doesn't bad for you to have 50 grams
32:49
all at once, but as we age, we.
32:51
Metabolize digest, absorb all of that a little better when it's
32:56
in a little bit smaller amounts.
32:57
And so, think about, don't forget your eggs.
33:00
And when you're eating your eggs, which each egg is seven grams
33:04
of protein, you're getting an.
33:06
All the great important fats that are in that egg.
33:10
You're getting in a, very important B vitamin choline That
33:13
is absolutely essential, that we're all too low in in America.
33:18
'cause everyone's throwing out their egg yolks and it's in the yolk.
33:21
So you've got your eggs, you've got milk, cheese, yogurt.
33:26
All of these have, really good amounts of protein.
33:30
Certainly any kind of, meat fish.
33:34
don't forget you can have fish for breakfast.
33:37
So, if you had fish the night before, you can have it leftovers in the morning.
33:43
and just thinking about, as you were saying, Pam, it's really
33:46
important to have nuts and seeds.
33:47
Every day a portion of nuts and seeds, and you get protein from
33:51
those nuts and seeds as well.
33:54
And any, if you lean more toward animal protein in your regular food, maybe use.
34:02
A vegetable source, a plant source of protein as your supplement variety
34:08
is one of the keys to good nutrition.
34:12
And so using a soy protein, or as you say a pea protein, make sure
34:17
that it is a complete protein source.
34:20
and
34:20
no.
34:21
Keen.
34:22
Yeah.
34:22
Our grains, of course, our whole grains, we should all be having at least
34:27
three servings of whole grains a day.
34:29
More is better if you can fit those calories into your diet.
34:32
And so every, Slice of whole grain bread gives you two grams of
34:37
protein and it doesn't have to be a processed even to bread or pasta.
34:42
It can be the actual whole grain cook.
34:45
It like we cook rice, just as easy to cook it and really delicious.
34:50
and adds every little third of a cup is going to add several grams
34:55
of protein, so, don't get anxious.
35:00
Just get busy and start to think about, oh, what if I had one more snack?
35:06
Start out small.
35:07
One more protein rich snack a day.
35:11
Add a glass of milk if you're a milk drinker or
35:14
Pam Peeke, MD: The other thing too is, don't forget, yogurt is phenomenal.
35:19
You see, you have your dry cereal as it were.
35:23
I have my yogurt, so I have one of the Icelandic yogurts and
35:27
that's 15 grams right there.
35:29
And then I add walnuts, so I'm really bumping up the protein here
35:33
'cause there's, they're my nuts.
35:35
so that works out really well.
35:37
That with that, loaded coffee is what I love to call it.
35:40
I'm ready.
35:41
It's like, bring it on, You know, we can do this.
35:44
And, don't forget cheese, cheese is wonderful.
35:47
a slice or two slices of havard tea or any of those, 10 grams of protein right there.
35:53
Cottage cheese has become a real go-to for me.
35:57
I love, love, love that.
35:58
I put on dill weed and I have a lot of fun with it.
36:02
so there are so many places to do this, but I also discovered another
36:07
benefit, Sue, and That is, when you become more protein centric, suddenly
36:12
your whole diet starts to clean up.
36:15
Because what are you gonna have with that protein?
36:19
you wanna have a little vegetables and maybe, you know you're gonna have an
36:22
apple afterwards or you're gonna, you start thinking about it differently versus
36:27
what I've heard, and I'm sure you have too, for so long, it's like, I don't what
36:32
to eat and I don't know where to begin.
36:35
I'm like, I know protein.
36:37
And then you kind of go from there.
36:39
And the first-time I hit.
36:41
120 grams of protein.
36:44
I just sat there and I said, This is completely doable.
36:47
This is totally doable.
36:49
Now let's go to a very interesting place.
36:51
We have a lot of people out there in the Herb Podcast land who are
36:54
thinking, I know what you're thinking.
36:56
Why?
36:56
'cause I have ESP.
36:59
And I'm a woman.
37:00
Been there, done that.
37:01
Got the t-shirt.
37:02
Okay.
37:03
So you're saying how the hell fast does all this recomposition take place?
37:07
Like normally I put myself on an extreme diet and I deprive and I, live
37:13
in a gym somewhere and I, and that's.
37:15
It's kind of been my playbook.
37:17
What if I'm now asking you to instead look at your body like that lump of
37:22
marble, good old, Michelangelo and just say, I would like to optimize my muscle.
37:30
I want to minimize, the fat, especially the dangerous stuff in the viscera.
37:36
And you obviously can measure that in your body composition.
37:40
analysis.
37:41
Alright, so, but how fast does this take place?
37:45
because if I starve myself, ooh, I look at my scale, that little
37:49
gravitational scale that Dr.
37:51
Sue was talking about.
37:53
So of gravity scale look at that.
37:56
Wow.
37:57
I'm coming down.
37:57
What's really happening is that you're dropping a boatload of water.
38:03
Because water and carbohydrate go hand in hand.
38:05
So if you've suddenly done like, oh my God, I'm not gonna do any carb
38:09
for the rest of my, okay, fine.
38:10
We know what, where This is gonna go.
38:12
And so really important to understand you got a boatload
38:15
of water coming off, number one.
38:18
Number two, believe God, do not lose muscle, but you will lose muscle.
38:24
And so if you do it that way where you're not.
38:27
Feeding muscle.
38:28
You're not nourishing muscle.
38:30
And let's just say you go to the gym, you try to kill yourself all day long
38:34
and you're not eating enough and you're saying, oh, I'm gonna real quickly
38:38
be able to fit into those genes.
38:40
Yeah, you will.
38:41
the problem is you're going to be fatter because you've dropped muscle
38:47
mass, so relatively speaking, and you're not gonna look healthy or fit.
38:52
Okay, you're gonna look kind of sick.
38:55
So if that's what you want, that's what you're gonna get.
38:58
So the key here is to just be patient.
39:02
It takes absolutely longer.
39:07
It DEET definitely takes longer.
39:09
But here's the cool thing, and Sue correct me if I'm wrong.
39:13
For every more optimal change that occurs in your body composition as you measure it
39:20
on a monthly basis, This is not something you ever measure on a weekly basis.
39:25
It takes a while to shift stuff around.
39:28
So every four to five weeks ish, okay?
39:32
for all those changes that have taken place, guess what?
39:35
They are sustainable.
39:38
This is something you could do and hold onto, build a foundation
39:42
and keep building that foundation.
39:45
So how are we gonna calm down all these little happy campers who for years.
39:50
Have been doing this whole gig about, let's go fast, let's get this over
39:55
with, and I went to TikTok and I saw people, my God, in one week, they said
40:00
that they had dropped enormous amount of weight and all the rest of it.
40:04
How do we calm them down?
40:05
Dr.
40:05
Sue?
40:06
Susan M. Kleiner, PhD:
40:06
Well, so the first thing is I love, I love the idea of thinking
40:10
of Michelangelo And the looking at just a slab of marble and how.
40:17
the stories of him and other sculptors or wood carvers who say, it's the
40:23
piece of marble that talks to me and lets me know how to shape it.
40:29
It comes from the inside out.
40:32
Well, that's what we can do.
40:35
If we nourish ourselves well, our body will shape itself.
40:40
The paradigm that I use for power eating is.
40:44
I say eat more because this was a book written really for athletes.
40:48
So eat more to gain energy, to train harder, to gain muscle.
40:55
And if you n need to lose fat, you will.
40:59
And so that's the order
41:02
Pam Peeke, MD: Yeah.
41:02
You know, that's an interesting point.
41:04
fat loss will happen as you go along and, and it's almost, when
41:09
I say the word effortless, I mean, obviously you're working.
41:12
Out you're paying attention to your nutrition.
41:15
That's not effortless.
41:16
I mean, you're working it, but it's not like every day you wake up going, uh, you
41:22
know, bite your tongue, grind your teeth.
41:25
It's all about, You know, like, somehow I'm gonna soldier through
41:29
this versus I'm gonna have some really awesome whole foods today that are
41:35
going to be tasty and they're going to nourish my wonderful muscles.
41:40
And by the way, again.
41:42
a woman, I don't care how old you are, you could still build muscle.
41:46
Susan M. Kleiner, PhD:
41:46
Oh.
41:47
Pam Peeke, MD: if you're 60 or 70 and you say, oh, it's over for me.
41:51
Mm-hmm.
41:51
No, Dr.
41:52
Sue,
41:53
Susan M. Kleiner, PhD:
41:53
we are gonna gain strength.
41:55
We are going to.
41:57
Gain tone.
41:59
We're gonna pull all that stuff in.
42:01
When those muscles are working, we're gonna stand up straighter.
42:04
Our posture will be better.
42:06
Those pants, I promise you will fit better.
42:09
And you, like, no one's gonna turn into Arnold, right?
42:13
I mean, no one, if we could do that, somebody would be making a lot more money
42:18
than you and I make, but the key is.
42:22
You're adding life to your years.
42:24
When you do this, when you go on a diet to go off a diet, which
42:29
is really what Americans do, we go on diets to go off them.
42:33
We, yo-yo, so that person who is out there cutting carbs, cutting calories,
42:42
starving themselves for the wedding, three weeks from now, and getting into that
42:46
red dress for the Crouse or whatever.
42:50
They know two weeks later they're gonna be back where they started from.
42:55
Or perhaps even worse because as you said now you've lost muscle.
43:01
We're watching people on GLP one drugs lose 40% of their fat loss as muscle.
43:08
That is astounding.
43:10
they are in high-risk categories to begin with if they are morbidly obese.
43:14
So there's a lot of risk calculation going on with all of this.
43:19
But if you are choosing to look at how can I eat?
43:23
Well, nourish myself, get to the place I wanna go, and you are mission-driven to
43:28
actually enhance your health span, as Dr.
43:31
Pam was talking about at the beginning.
43:34
Well then This is the strategy.
43:38
Eat.
43:38
More protein.
43:40
Don't think about I always say think about what you need to
43:44
eat, not what you can't eat next.
43:46
That is don't eat by default.
43:49
Whatever's around, and you don't have to eat those.
43:52
I just saw them at Costco.
43:53
They are chicken breast chips to get your protein in.
44:01
Pam Peeke, MD: I know I'm seeing protein now in everything.
44:04
No.
44:05
Okay.
44:05
Listen to me out there.
44:07
No, stop that stuff.
44:09
What you wanna do is get it from Whole Foods.
44:12
Okay?
44:12
Number one.
44:14
appropriately high, caliber protein powder that you can actually mix
44:19
with some really great stuff, to make a shake that really works for you.
44:24
Now, let's go to the protein bars.
44:28
I know, I know if, if you go to a market right now, I don't care where you are.
44:32
They have all the, I mean, literally a wall
44:36
Susan M. Kleiner, PhD:
44:36
Yeah.
44:36
Pam Peeke, MD: of protein, but come on now, protein.
44:39
Okay, go for it,
44:40
Susan M. Kleiner, PhD:
44:40
I'm gonna say, walk away from there.
44:43
Go to the frozen food sections and look for frozen ami, I mean, the best snack
44:50
food you can find, takes some of them.
44:54
I don't know if it's so good for.
44:55
Micro plastics to cook in the bag.
44:58
They have some of those, but I mean, it's as about as easy as you can get.
45:02
it's soybean in the pod.
45:05
It is a Japanese style food that I've been eating, I think, for 40 years already.
45:11
And, and You cook it for three minutes, you salt it, and you sit and
45:16
you pop those out like you're eating peanuts at the ballpark, and it is a
45:21
fabulous protein source, and you can take those everywhere, just like you
45:26
can take a hard boiled egg with you.
45:28
If it's in the shell.
45:30
It doesn't
45:30
need to be refrigerated.
45:32
Right.
45:33
take things with you.
45:34
Take those mozzarella cheese sticks with you, take real food.
45:39
the conversation is so convoluted now, and if I were not a nutritionist,
45:44
and sometimes I even get confused, but I can't imagine you're
45:48
hearing protein, protein, protein.
45:50
You're seeing all this ultraprocessed food come out with protein
45:54
in it, And then you're told.
45:56
Don't eat ultraprocessed foods.
45:58
And so it is very confusing And what we wanna do is tell you it's not, If, you
46:04
need something super convenient and you're not gonna bake it yourself at home, then
46:10
get the least processed bar you can get.
46:13
And don't worry too much about the protein in there if you need a ready to go snack.
46:19
Get a mozzarella stick and get a good whole grain.
46:24
Bar, the old school granola bars, the, different ones.
46:29
Don't try and pack everything into that little bar.
46:33
Now you're looking for a super duper ultraprocessed food that may not be
46:39
helping you anymore than it's hurting you.
46:42
So From my point of view, if you need that on the go snack,
46:46
you're hiking, you're whatever, try and take whole food with you.
46:50
Apples, peanuts, right?
46:52
All the different
46:53
Pam Peeke, MD: I put almond
46:54
Susan M. Kleiner, PhD:
46:54
fruits.
46:55
Pam Peeke, MD: Apple.
46:56
Susan M. Kleiner, PhD:
46:56
There's a
46:57
Pam Peeke, MD: Okay.
46:57
Or, or you could do, a number of different bean dips, that'll work like a charm.
47:04
But, as we're drawing this to a close here, let me just make
47:08
sure everyone out there is clear.
47:10
The diet weird thing, where you're excluding an entire macronutrient.
47:18
it is dead.
47:18
That's dead and it should remain there.
47:21
We buried it.
47:22
Okay.
47:23
to do anything extreme to the human body.
47:27
Now I'm not, I'm, again, I'm eliminating elite athletes And the
47:31
crazy stuff they do, but for just all of us soldiers out there, okay?
47:37
The body likes to work on its own rhythm.
47:42
It cannot stand it.
47:44
When you try to do something rapid and very, extreme, it will rebound on you.
47:52
And it'll rebound in the worst way because your body is primal and
47:57
it is trying to get you back to a survival mode in its little algorithm.
48:03
And that may not be yours, but the body's.
48:06
So don't do that.
48:07
what I'm arguing for.
48:10
It is, look at the quality, not just the quantity.
48:15
Add quality and quantity together.
48:17
And I'm gonna tell you something this weekend.
48:19
I'm gonna, I'm up for my next body, composition analysis.
48:24
I'm gonna take a little look at it.
48:25
And you know what I look at folks.
48:28
First thing I look at is visceral fat.
48:31
Where am I?
48:32
Because that internal fat is exceptionally critical for your
48:38
life, But when it becomes excessive, then it impacts upon your mortality.
48:45
And so I look at the visceral fat.
48:47
Am I in the little green zone?
48:49
I love those green zones.
48:50
Okay, number one.
48:51
Number two, I look at my muscle and if I've gained muscle.
48:56
Okay.
48:57
Have you ever seen me do the happy dance?
48:59
I mean, I just like do the little happy dance.
49:01
It doesn't look great, but it makes me happy.
49:04
So I do the happy dance, like bring it on, because what I've done is add another
49:09
little cylinder under the hood And that makes me metabolically hotter and
49:15
more efficient at cooking my calories.
49:18
And then quite frankly.
49:20
The rest of whatever's on my body composition analysis is
49:24
quite interesting and everything.
49:26
And then I do one last thing, and I'm sure you do it too, Sue.
49:30
I grab my little tape measure and I do my waist circumference.
49:35
So I do actually two measurements.
49:38
One is right across my belly button And the other one is
49:42
what we love to call the pooch.
49:44
Okay.
49:45
lovingly called the Pooch.
49:47
I actually made this very famous with one of my books, and I'm now in Webster's.
49:51
I'm not sure I'm happy about this, but I'm known as the Meadow Pot doctor.
49:57
And so I decided when I wrote one of my books that I would call it the
50:01
Meadow Pot because, there it was.
50:03
It is like, whoa, what happened there?
50:05
so.
50:07
I like to look at both measurements.
50:10
And then I also have my, clothes ter, my infamous clothes ter.
50:16
So I get this one pair of jeans that, I've had for like 25 years.
50:21
You know, the joke is it's not even the right size thing anymore 'cause they've
50:25
cheated on all the sizes and everything.
50:27
So I put the thing on and if it fits, I'm good.
50:30
know, if it doesn't fit, what does that mean?
50:32
Oh, I became so muscular.
50:35
I can't get into this.
50:36
No, that's a lie.
50:37
Um, maybe we got a little fluffier, so we, just have to maybe use that as a monitor.
50:43
So I use all these little tools when I'm trying to look at my body composition.
50:49
That makes sense.
50:49
Sue,
50:50
Susan M. Kleiner, PhD:
50:50
Oh yeah.
50:50
I have a dress
50:52
that, I have a dress that was.
50:56
Fitted to me just exactly right.
51:00
Altered, just to fit.
51:02
It's a, you know, it's like a sheath dress, You know, it just fits perfectly.
51:07
And if that doesn't zip up quite as nicely,
51:12
Pam Peeke, MD: Okay.
51:12
We know what That
51:13
means.
51:14
That means that, it's like, let's,
51:16
uh, let's rein it in,
51:18
rein it in.
51:20
Listen, you are amazing.
51:22
You are absolutely amazing.
51:24
Everyone out there, please look up our wonderful Dr.
51:29
Susan Kleiner.
51:31
Tell everyone the best website.
51:33
Susan M. Kleiner, PhD:
51:33
So Dr.
51:34
S kleiner.com.
51:35
You spelled it out because it looks so silly.
51:38
D-R-S-K-L-E-I-N-E r.com.
51:41
The Dr.
51:42
Kleiner website was taken by someone when I tried to.
51:46
Buy it years ago.
51:48
I know.
51:48
So, dr.
51:50
S kleiner.com.
51:51
D-R-S-K-L-E-I-N-E r.com.
51:53
On, I don't do a lot on social media, but you'll see that I'm a bread baker.
51:59
If you find me at power eat on Instagram or on Facebook, it's Susan Kleiner.
52:05
But I, like I said, I'm not, or Dr.
52:08
Susan Kleiner on Facebook, but not big on there.
52:11
but I do share a lot of my colleagues, our colleagues, scientific studies.
52:17
I'm on LinkedIn.
52:19
That's probably where I'm the most active.
52:22
Pam Peeke, MD: We'll just hop on over there and scope it out.
52:25
Dr.
52:26
Kleiner, Sue, thank you so much for being on the Herb Podcast once again.
52:32
Susan M. Kleiner, PhD:
52:32
Always a pleasure, Pam.
52:33
Thank you so much.
52:35
Pam Peeke, MD: Thanks to our sponsor.
52:36
So array, vitamins, minerals, and herbs rooted in nature And
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the new her life stages products.
52:44
Scope 'em all out.
52:45
It's so array.
52:46
S-O-L-A-R-A y.com.
52:49
And take a moment to leave us a review right now.
52:52
Because you know what we do?
52:53
We sit around waiting for those.
52:54
We love them.
52:55
Love, love, love.
52:56
Alright, This is a bit of production of Podcast Health and as I always
53:02
say, remember, your time in this world may be a tad limited, but the
53:08
things you can do with it are not.
53:10
So get on out there and seize the day.
53:13
Have a good one, everyone.