Latest / The Kink Consultant / The Life And Loves Of A Sex Writer with Gabrielle Cassel

Transcript

The Life And Loves Of A Sex Writer with Gabrielle Cassel · The Kink Consultant

0:08
It's a King Consultant podcast where we're turning up the heat
0:11
on all things kink and dating, relationships and pop culture.
0:14
So close the door, plug in your headphones, and let's get down
0:17
to it. Hey everyone, and welcome to
0:24
this week's episode of the King Consultant Podcast.
0:27
I am here with Gabrielle Cassell, a queer sex and
0:30
Wellness journalist who writes for some of the sexiest
0:33
magazines that we're all reading GQ, Cosmopolitan, Women's
0:36
Health, Men's Health, and many more.
0:39
And I've invited Gabrielle in today because she wrote an
0:43
article that literally was like a punch to the stomach with how
0:47
accurate it described the last few years of my dating life.
0:51
First of all, Gabrielle, welcome.
0:53
But I'm just going to like tee up the title of this article.
0:56
I'm a sex writer, so why is my dating life terrible?
1:00
Welcome, Abriel. Hi, Amanda.
1:02
I'm so happy to be here. And while I'm happy to hear that
1:06
you and I have this connection based on the topics I've written
1:09
about in the article, I'm also sorry to hear that this
1:12
experience is more universal than just my own.
1:14
I know it's tough, Caveat that I did meet someone in September,
1:19
but it was no easier. Like, there were hurdles.
1:22
I think it was three or four months of just tension as we
1:25
navigated it. And I'm not angry about it.
1:28
But when I read your article, I was like, first of all, where
1:31
was this Article 6 months ago? But second of all, probably no
1:35
one could have told the story better or explained it as well
1:37
as you did. So Gabrielle, please, I would
1:41
love if you would just share a little bit about yourself.
1:43
I gave my intro from my perspective, having read a lot
1:47
of your work. And I think I've been featured
1:48
in some of your articles as a kink expert.
1:51
But yeah, I'd love to hear more. Yeah, I'm happy to.
1:53
I get to collaborate in this medium because I've gotten to
1:55
interview you as the expert. So how fun for us to be in
1:58
conversation today. I'm a queer sex journalist.
2:01
I've been writing in the space primarily at the intersection of
2:04
queerness, pleasure and well-being for a decade now.
2:08
In addition to being a journalist, I'm also in school
2:12
to become a sex therapist. I'm two years through a
2:14
three-year program. So you know, the goal is
2:17
ultimately to be a queer firming therapist offering education and
2:22
care and affirmation through the in person format, when for so
2:25
long I've been offering it in the written format.
2:27
I love it. Congratulations, that is no
2:30
small feat. That is amazing.
2:32
Yes, 13 months left until graduation, but time's going to
2:35
pass anyway. I'm in no rush to get through
2:37
it. It's fun to get to be a student
2:38
again. For the topic you're studying,
2:40
100% I don't know if I've ever been excited to be a student
2:43
again. You strike me though, as someone
2:45
who enjoys tests of endurance, whether that's fitness or
2:50
education, you have that vibe, am I correct?
2:53
Thank you. Yes, yes, I will take this.
2:55
Words of affirmation is my love language.
2:57
So you're really stroking me right now.
2:59
Thank you. I look how self aware you are.
3:01
See, I love when I have other coaches or somebody's going to
3:04
be a therapist on and it's like you're so self aware.
3:06
You're like, yes, that is my love language.
3:07
Thank you very much. OK, so you have a lot going on
3:11
then you're juggling a lot of different things.
3:14
How do you even have time to date with this workload?
3:17
That's a really good question. I guess some personal
3:19
information about me is on in addition to being a journalist
3:23
and being in school, I'm really into CrossFit.
3:25
You mentioned like me being into endurance.
3:27
Yes, I'm very into exercise. And so the compromise that I've
3:30
made for myself when I got into Graduate School is OK, I got to
3:34
slow down. I'm not going to be quite as
3:36
competitive in the sport of CrossFit.
3:37
That's kind of my exercise of choice as I was before enrolling
3:41
in Graduate School so that I can continue to nurture my
3:44
community, my friendships and also date because ultimately
3:47
partnership is thing that I want and so I have to make time to
3:51
prioritize it. And so for me, the making time
3:54
came at the cost of exercising to sort of the same intensity,
3:58
degree and time as I was before and during Graduate School.
4:01
It is so refreshing to hear someone come on here and say,
4:06
oh, I can't have it all. I had to make a list of
4:08
priorities and then rearrange them because so many people are
4:11
like, I want to meet someone. I want to meet someone.
4:13
I'm like, oh, So what are you doing?
4:14
And they're like, well, nothing. Yeah.
4:17
So you're prioritizing it. I'm doing my best to prioritize
4:21
it. I, for a while joined a rock
4:23
climbing gym. There was all this hoopla about
4:26
rock climbing gyms being kind of the place that you might meet
4:29
someone, right? A lot of there was like, kind of
4:31
like stories online, Instagram, people being like, oh, yeah, I
4:35
met the love of my life at the climbing gym.
4:37
And so I was like, OK, I love to exercise.
4:39
This is a great way for me to put myself in places to meet
4:42
potential other singles. And I went twice a week for
4:45
close to six months. And that was just not my
4:48
experience. I don't know if it's because I
4:51
was giving off a clothes energy in a way it wasn't aware of.
4:55
I don't know if it was just like the particular vibe of my gym,
4:59
you know, working really hard to make it a safe space for people
5:02
and not wanting to make people uncomfortable.
5:05
But yeah, I did not find it to be good.
5:07
I do not find it a space that there was like really any
5:11
romantic or sexual connections, attractions.
5:14
I mean, not even like any first steps in that direction.
5:17
I'm kind of surprised at that for a couple of reasons.
5:19
Number one, from what I know of climbing gyms in Brooklyn,
5:23
they're like a little hotspot of incestuous dating.
5:27
Maybe you saved yourself from that.
5:29
I guess that would be my second question.
5:30
You're based in New York, right? I've beep bopped around New
5:34
England. I'm currently Connecticut based.
5:36
I lived in New York City for five years when I was jump
5:39
starting my career as a journalist.
5:41
But as a freelancer, I now get the gift of living wherever I
5:44
want. I can write from anywhere, in my
5:46
pajamas, in bed, so Connecticut is my place of choice.
5:48
Yeah, that's how I podcast too, except I do put on clothes.
5:51
But yeah, and same thing. Maybe that's just not happening
5:54
in the Connecticut gyms. You need to go on a little train
5:57
ride to Brooklyn for that type of.
5:59
Amanda, I cannot be doing long distance anymore.
6:02
I've been there. I've done that.
6:04
I don't have it in me. Yeah.
6:06
That's fair. OK, but now understanding you're
6:08
from Connecticut. I am going to keep referencing
6:10
this article because my take away was you were dating a WASP
6:14
and Connecticut. That tracks a little, a little
6:17
bit. We're not generalizing, except I
6:18
am. How did you meet the person?
6:20
I know I'm going to go deep on this article.
6:22
I want to tease it a little bit. It's on Cosmopolitan, but you
6:25
can find it in the show notes as well.
6:27
So how did you meet this Waspy fellow?
6:30
So let me just get the SparkNotes of the article
6:33
physically that this statement is is I love being a sex
6:36
educator. I really feel that it's what I
6:38
was meant to do if I was meant to be someone who is employed in
6:42
laborers. And Despite that, despite loving
6:45
it, despite really being passionate about for a long
6:48
time, I felt that my love life is the thing that has to suffer
6:53
in order for me to have this career.
6:55
And the reason that I felt that way is that really as soon as a
6:59
person finds out what I do, I'm a queer sex educator, I'm a
7:02
journalist. And one of two things happens,
7:05
and this is simplifying it a little bit, but not a lot
7:08
either. Immediately I'm over sexualized
7:12
in this way that ultimately feels dehumanizing to me and I
7:15
have a hard time eroticizing. And what that looks like is a
7:18
person assuming that because I write on these topics and
7:22
educate on these topics, for example, I teach a strap on sex
7:25
workshop online, People assume that I can then become the
7:30
person that is going to fulfill whatever their fantasy is.
7:34
Not just fill their fantasy, but really be the first person to
7:39
hear that fantasy, receive it with care, not shame them, and
7:44
then give them whatever experience that they have been
7:47
fantasizing about in their mind. And while I long to be a partner
7:51
in general, who helps a partner achieve their fantasies, like
7:54
really explore whatever it is that they're into, when a person
7:58
puts me into their fantasy, I'm not actually a person.
8:01
I am this kind of like dehumanized thing because we're
8:05
not working together to Co create a scene or Co create a
8:08
sexual play situation. I'm just like jumping in and
8:11
filling the role of what they've visualized over and over and
8:14
over again. And so honestly, that's been
8:16
really not sexy to me. It makes me feel not like a full
8:19
human and it makes me feel like I am then just this one side of
8:23
myself, which is my sexual education knowledge.
8:26
And on top of that, I don't enjoy or perform or am
8:31
interested in all of the topics that I teach on.
8:34
So there is a lot of assumption that just because I know about
8:38
something means that it's something I am really into.
8:42
And that assumption happens without a back and forth
8:44
conversation about like, hey Gabby, what are you into?
8:48
And the loss of that opportunity really robs us both of
8:51
connection. So that what I'm hearing is
8:53
really the lack of curiosity in yeah, totally robbed view of a
8:58
fulfilling dating experience. Yeah, so that's ten of the one
9:01
boat is I'm immediately over sexualized.
9:03
The other boat is that I'm immediately written off
9:06
altogether because I think there's a lot of reasons. 1 is
9:10
my career feels too salacious for them to ever introduce a
9:15
partner who works in sex education, who is a sexuality
9:19
professional to their families, right.
9:21
That has to do with their own kind of like connection to
9:23
purity culture, to their own shames, to their own kind of
9:27
like desire to be hush hush about sex.
9:30
Sometimes it's about feeling like, oh, well, I'm not going to
9:33
be good enough in bed for Gabby because she has all this
9:36
knowledge. Or I'm not going to be quote, UN
9:38
quote freaky enough or quote, UN quote Tinky enough for Gabby
9:41
just based on what I see she's writing about online.
9:44
And so it's tough because I really long for romance and I
9:49
really long for sex and desire and connection.
9:52
And I've had a hard time getting past those initial reactions to
9:56
my career. Yeah, that's extremely tough.
10:00
Have you had any luck finding the balance like people
10:03
understanding your career? I think it's complicated, so
10:06
I'll share that. Really, the week that the story
10:08
went live, I started seeing someone who I'm excited about.
10:12
I don't love talking about my dating.
10:14
I like want to keep this sacred to myself.
10:16
Fair. But you know, it's weird having
10:18
a story like this go live literally the week that I'm
10:20
meeting someone I'm excited about.
10:22
So like that is happening in the background.
10:24
I've been sharing all this right now.
10:25
What I will say is the thing that has been most healing for
10:29
me is connecting with other sexuality professionals who are
10:33
having similar experiences. Or maybe not even just
10:36
connecting with other sexuality professionals who are having
10:38
similar experiences to me, but connecting with other sexuality
10:42
professionals who have in the past had similar experiences to
10:46
me. And now our love and in support
10:49
of partnerships and whose career previous current future is not
10:54
an impediment to the love and the partnership that they're
10:57
currently in. Oh, you said that so
10:59
beautifully. For me, I feel like I had to put
11:01
in work to get there with my partner.
11:03
But that was a discussion from the beginning and now we're
11:06
there. But even I felt like it wasn't a
11:08
seamless open arms type of situation.
11:11
And it was more the public side of it than even the job.
11:14
It's like, oh, are our lives going to be this public?
11:17
But I feel you. So you have met hopefully many
11:21
other educators or people like us who have ended up in
11:24
relationships. I've met enough to believe that
11:27
if it can happen for them, it can happen for me.
11:30
You know, there's a fear there. It's like, wow, like I love this
11:33
career and I believe so strongly in it.
11:36
Like, is this really going to be the thing that I'm forever
11:39
explaining as a way to prove my love ability to potential
11:43
suitors? That was really the fear.
11:46
And I think especially in online dating, there's a lot of sort of
11:50
snap finger judgments, quick judgments about whether or not a
11:54
person is compatible with you long term, right?
11:56
First there's the judgment of whether or not they're
11:58
attractive enough for you long term based on just some images.
12:02
And then there's your initial conversations about, you know,
12:04
where did you grow up? What do you do?
12:06
Do you have a dog like those three?
12:08
Or, you know, there's a few others, is what people use to
12:11
decide, OK, is there going to be a second date?
12:13
100% I've dated on the East Coast and on the West Coast.
12:17
Well, like in Vegas, I do think like when I was dating in New
12:21
York, those three questions, it was intense and I felt like I
12:24
was in a job interview on every date because so many people do
12:27
filter according to that. Sometimes I think in bigger
12:30
cities, the interest factor, like if it's oh, you're
12:33
interesting, that provides an edge, then you don't know if
12:36
it's long term or if you're just sort of a novelty in the moment
12:40
of like, oh, I get to date the dominatrix.
12:42
This was back in my dominatrix days.
12:44
It was like my favorite conversation would be I'd say it
12:47
and they'd be like, wow, that's so interesting, you're so
12:49
interesting, but they didn't think I was interesting.
12:52
They were just interested in that one piece.
12:55
Like you said, it's sort of like they put a magnifying glass over
12:58
that one part. You can almost see them thinking
13:01
about how they're going to tell their friends the story about
13:04
the time they went on a date with this dominatrix, right?
13:08
Yes, that's exactly it. And that's what they were doing.
13:11
And then, you know, all the questions follow, but they're
13:14
not really about me. It's sort of like what do you
13:16
do? Like they're about the clients I
13:17
had or whatever situation or like coaching clients now, which
13:20
I do not share those stories. Atlanta not with like real
13:24
detail. It's just that's what it
13:26
becomes. Yeah.
13:27
One of the things you mentioned about being fetishized, I think
13:31
is universal for a lot of dominant women.
13:34
Now, I know we're not talking about dominance and submission
13:36
right now, but I do know that because there's a perceived
13:40
shortage of dominant women, lot of men, as soon as they find
13:43
one, they turn that person into a kink dispenser.
13:46
And that's kind of what you were describing too.
13:48
It's like a fantasy dispenser. More specifically, I feel like
13:52
men see me as the person who is going to peg them for the first
13:55
time because I write a lot about strap on sex for the Internet.
13:59
And again, I used to coach specifically a strap on sex
14:02
workshop. And so actually, it's
14:03
specifically that kink or that interest that I've found that
14:07
men point to and say, oh, you're going to provide that for me?
14:11
Yeah. Do they know this before they go
14:13
on the date with you or does it just sort of come out overtime?
14:16
I have found through trial and error that I don't want to
14:19
experience anyone shame. I don't want to swallow
14:22
anybody's shame. And so the most self protective
14:25
thing that I can do for my own Peace of Mind is actually be
14:29
really upfront from the beginning with them about what
14:31
my career is. I don't try to sugarcoat it.
14:34
And if I clock myself sugarcoating it or dulling it
14:38
down for my audience, that's been information for me about my
14:41
comfort level with this person and like our compatibility long
14:45
term. So pretty early on when I was
14:47
online dating, I would be like, hey, just want to let you know,
14:49
like I am a queer sex journalist.
14:51
Like I cover topics like that. Happy to answer any questions.
14:55
Also happy to talk about it in person.
14:58
I just like to lay it out because I know that that isn't
15:01
in alignment with what a lot of people see in their long term
15:04
partner. I just name it at this point.
15:06
I was just naming it. I love it.
15:07
That was also my approach when I was this online dating was to
15:10
just say, this is what I do and I'm proud of them for this.
15:13
They were like, Oh yeah, that's not for me or I wouldn't be
15:16
comfortable with that. I have a pretty prominent job.
15:19
People will often point to their own career as the thing making
15:22
them step back or that was my experience when I was dating.
15:25
I like that you go out the gate. In fact, so many parallels here
15:29
about like, even if you're kinky, I recommend people bring
15:31
it up earlier rather than later. And you just gave a really good
15:34
point. You don't need to internalize
15:36
anyone else's shame. They can keep that for
15:38
themselves and you can stay true to who you are.
15:40
Yeah, I don't feel like I owe sitting across the table from a
15:43
stranger and sitting with their shame with them, Right.
15:45
That's what I see my professional job being.
15:48
And so when I'm dating, when I'm looking for friends and
15:51
partners, that's not my job. Feel that in your own time.
15:55
So you're a freelance journalist.
15:57
Can we talk a little bit about how you come up with the
15:59
stories? How so many of your articles and
16:01
what you teach is about pegging? I'd love to learn more of the
16:04
history of your intro to kink and just where the passion
16:07
started for you. Can we start that?
16:09
Where did the passion start? I'm guessing you were the friend
16:12
everyone talked to about sex. That would be my guess.
16:14
So some background information is I went to a women's college
16:17
where I majored in queer studies and English, which meant that in
16:21
my undergraduate degree, I actually had the privilege of
16:25
writing basically about queer sex for grades.
16:28
And so I was doing this in kind of my undergraduate work and
16:32
more or less thought it would stay or at least the sex piece
16:36
would stay there. Fast forward, my first job out
16:39
of school is as an intern at Women's Health magazine.
16:42
And for the most part at that time, I was helping editors with
16:45
and pitching fitness stories. Anytime we came to a pitch
16:49
meeting though, you know, I might say, here are three
16:51
fitness ideas that I'm really interested in.
16:53
And then I would also suggest an article that was a little bit
16:59
gay. So that would look like being
17:01
like, well, why don't we write an article about like how to
17:04
kiss another girl or how to tell if you're gay or how to finger
17:09
another girl? And keep in mind, this was 2016
17:11
when I had this job. And at the time, most
17:14
publications weren't covering gay sex or LGBTQ issues.
17:18
And the way most publications aren't doing it right now in
17:22
this particular day and age, but they were really from like 2017
17:25
to like 2021, most publications were covering them.
17:29
And again and again, the editors were just like, no.
17:32
And the reason at the time was there was a belief that let's
17:36
say 10% of the population was gay.
17:38
So if only 10% of the population is gay, we're not going to write
17:42
an article and use our resources to pay a writer to write an
17:46
article that's only going to get 110th the clicks and views and
17:50
therefore advertising dollars compared to an article that
17:53
might be more attractive to people who are straight.
17:56
And so time and time again, these various stories that I was
18:00
pitching about gayness, queerness, queer sex were turned
18:03
down. Then in about early 2017, Google
18:07
made a decision that really changed my life.
18:10
And that was that they quote, UN quote said.
18:13
When people Google sex terms like lesbian sex or anal sex
18:19
with the hope of winding up on a porn website or at porn content,
18:23
we don't want the first thing that they see to be those porn
18:27
or X-rated sites. We want it to be educational
18:30
sites. You can imagine a lot of people
18:33
are Googling lesbian sex and anal sex, yes.
18:36
And so for the first time, these publications had incentive to
18:41
write articles explaining those different sex acts, how to do
18:46
them, what they might feel like, how to explore them safely.
18:49
And so around this time, that's about when all these
18:52
publications that you see online started publishing basically how
18:55
to guides on how to do these various sex acts.
18:58
I feel like I've just had an amazing history lesson that I
19:01
was not expecting. I never knew that.
19:03
But now that you're saying it, I'm like, that makes so much
19:06
sense in the rise of articles that have come out in the last
19:09
nine years about sex and different kinds of sex.
19:13
Whoa. Were you working at any
19:15
particular publication at that point?
19:17
At that point I was freelance writing and so my editors were
19:20
used to, at this point, receiving pitches from me that
19:23
they were turning down on these topics.
19:26
And so as they started having articles to assign specifically
19:30
explaining lesbian sex, gay sex, anal sex, pegging, et cetera,
19:34
they said, hey, these might be a little saucier than what you've
19:37
been pitching, but we are looking for a writer to take
19:40
this on. Are you interested?
19:42
And so honestly, right place, right time, I took it on.
19:45
And then very quickly I became kind of one of the people that
19:47
was writing at that intersection.
19:49
Wow, so obviously you're queer, You have that experience.
19:54
Would you say you had to do more research to learn and write
19:58
this, or were you pulling from things you already knew?
20:00
I think. It's a little bit of both, like
20:02
as a writer, no matter my identity or my sexual
20:05
experiences, I'm going to bring all of that baggage and
20:08
information in with me when I'm writing an article.
20:10
But as a journalist, that's actually not so relevant.
20:14
I have to interview experts as part of just like putting
20:18
together an article, putting together a well researched
20:20
article. So usually it is my voice that's
20:24
in the background, but I'm not writing first person stories
20:26
most of the time. Most of the time it's like
20:28
voiceless. How to guides where time than
20:31
interviewing experts like you like other sex therapists.
20:35
How did all of that turn into you being an expert online in
20:39
pegging? Amanda, it's so funny you asked
20:42
that because like I kind of jokingly say, I'm a pegging
20:45
expert and I'm certainly that's true in some ways.
20:48
It's not really. I've just written a lot of
20:51
articles on the topic for a wide variety of publications.
20:55
Men's Health, Women's Health, Cosmo, Well and good when they
20:58
used to be in business. And so more than anything, I've
21:01
just had the opportunity over the last decade to write about
21:04
that topic time and time and time again, OK?
21:07
Naturally then the next question though, is why do you think it's
21:10
so popular? Oh, that's a great question.
21:13
And you'll have to weigh in on this too, as it can get.
21:16
I think one, it is focused on the pleasure center of the anus,
21:20
which is really rich in nerve endings and just a hot zone of
21:24
potential erogenous tissues. Oh yeah.
21:27
So I think like the actual pleasure potential itself from
21:30
just like a touch standpoint is really erotic to some people.
21:33
I think too, we have the fact that usually if you're thinking
21:37
about like a heterosexual cisgender couple, pegging turns
21:41
the roles on their head. Yeah, for the first time, the
21:44
person who typically does the penetrating is going to be the
21:48
person who is penetrated. And I think that that can be
21:52
really psychologically arousing either to the person who is now
21:55
the receiver of the anal penetration of the penetration
21:59
and also really arousing to the the person who typically
22:02
receives penetration or is penetrated or accepts in the
22:06
phallus or dildo or toy. So I think there's something to
22:09
be said about the way it just turns the power dynamic.
22:13
It turns the typical scripts on their heads and says OK, turn
22:17
the scripts on their heads and have pleasure.
22:20
Yes OK I am going to weigh into. I completely agree with
22:23
everything you said. I think there's also a curiosity
22:26
with things that are considered taboo, right?
22:29
And then I think more people are doing it now than they admit to,
22:32
right? So they're not talking openly
22:34
with their friends. Do you remember that Sex in the
22:36
City episode where one of them has anal sex and it's this big
22:39
moment for all the friends to come together?
22:41
I think tegging is that. And in 20 years, no one's going
22:44
to be as obsessed with it and it's not going to be as risque.
22:46
That is my guess. But the other thing, this is
22:50
just a PSA for women. To your point, people without a
22:54
penis, the idea of just trying on a strap on and visualizing
22:58
yourself that way, experiencing it, seeing it can be thrilling
23:02
in itself. Like when I was a pro, whether
23:05
or not I went all the way, wearing a strap on is something
23:07
that I did and I felt so powerful standing in the mirror
23:10
looking at a version of myself that was just slightly altered
23:14
and I cannot recommend it enough.
23:16
So everything you said, plus it being taboo, and I just want a
23:19
PSA to women who feel like they might be scared.
23:22
They don't want to try it. They're worried about the back
23:25
door being dirty. I know that's a super common
23:27
concern. Go read some of Gabrielle
23:29
articles, look her up. But also consider pushing past
23:33
that, even just trying one on and experiencing that, because I
23:36
think that alone is a thrill that people could enjoy.
23:39
And I'll add, and I don't want to say at risk over sharing on
23:43
this podcast, but you know, risk and over sharing, I think
23:46
depending on the anatomy of your vulva and where your clitoral
23:49
gland is located, there's potential for the base of the
23:52
dildo to press against that hotspot in a way that is really
23:56
physically pleasurable. So to be clear, like pegging can
23:59
be psychologically and emotionally and mentally really
24:03
arousing, but it can also stimulate your vulva in a way
24:07
that very few other forms of sex do.
24:09
That's a really good point, and even if it's not that, they also
24:12
have strap ONS that include a vibration for you, so there are
24:15
so many options to make it pleasurable for both people.
24:18
All of that makes sense. I'm glad we went down that
24:20
little detour of a conversation. I feel like it's something that
24:23
whenever it's mentioned. It's really funny you say this,
24:26
though, because I know doing what I do now and what I've done
24:29
in the past, I have a lot of dominatrix friends.
24:32
And when they date, some of the first things that a man will say
24:35
is you can't peg me. And it's like, why is that where
24:38
your mind goes first? So I think it is a really big
24:40
fantasy. We're just not used to sharing
24:42
yet and oh, this is fun. I'm like loving all of this.
24:46
So would you describe yourself as a kinky person?
24:49
Oh. The answer is yes, but it
24:51
wouldn't be the first adjective I use to describe myself or my
24:55
sex life if I was to make a laundry.
24:57
Best of all of them, And I think the reason for that is that the
25:01
word queer is like so near and dear to my heart and feels so
25:04
integral to the way that I play sexually.
25:08
Like the kink of it all is more secondary.
25:12
And I guess that allow me to give some background information
25:14
on me to maybe explain what this means.
25:16
I came out as lesbian in high school.
25:18
Before that I hadn't dated any men, you know, hadn't kissed any
25:22
men. And it wasn't until my mid 20s
25:24
when I came to understand that I'm also attracted to men and
25:27
now identity identify as bisexual.
25:28
Because my early sexual experiences required me to be
25:33
really creative with what sex meant.
25:35
Like because I wasn't getting LGBTQ inclusive sex education in
25:40
high school or school intermedia at this time when I wanted to be
25:44
intimate with a girlfriend, we really had to figure out what
25:47
the heck that meant. And that required me approaching
25:50
sex with this real degree of curiosity and also creativity.
25:54
And I have carried that through the rest of my sexual life, even
25:59
after beginning to date and be with CIS men and men more
26:02
broadly. So I think for me when I say
26:07
like, I'm queer and I specifically speak to having
26:10
queer sex regardless of the orientation or gender of my
26:13
partner, when I'm really speaking to is approaching my
26:16
sex life with a kind of curiosity and creativity that I
26:19
don't think is implied by the word sex alone.
26:22
And in a lot of ways, I think there's a tremendous amount of
26:24
overlap in the way I'm describing my queer sex and what
26:27
you you might say is kink. And so it's like, yeah, I'm
26:31
kinky. And also it's not the first word
26:34
that I speak to. That made so much sense from the
26:37
way I relate to it or how it resonated for me was I have a
26:41
fetish, which you probably understand but I'm always on
26:43
this soapbox. There's a difference between a
26:45
kink and a fetish. A fetish is a need to have.
26:47
A kink is a nice to have. I would say I'm kinky because I
26:50
have a fetish and everyone knows my fetish is spanking and
26:52
punishment. The media wasn't representing it
26:55
in any way except for maybe seeing a leather or like latex
26:59
clad woman with a whip. And I was like, that isn't me.
27:02
I didn't have context for what turned me on and it led me to be
27:06
more curious and explore a bunch of other things as I tried to
27:09
get to the core of who I am. And once I figured that out,
27:13
also in my mid 20s, and I was like, oh, I'm not kinky.
27:16
I am, but that's not the main driving force.
27:19
It's this actual fetish. I don't know.
27:21
Every way you described it, I was like, yes, what is it about
27:23
our mid 20s and finally discovering who we actually are?
27:27
And I don't know what it is. I think maybe it's just not
27:30
worrying so much about society or not looking to society as
27:33
much to define it. Was there a catalyst for you?
27:36
Honestly, my attraction to a man, which then I later
27:39
discovered was attraction to multiple men, hit me like a
27:42
brick out of nowhere. I was working at a CrossFit gym
27:45
one day, a guy walked in and I was like you.
27:47
And that was it. It was the first time I'd ever
27:50
experienced attraction to that gender in that way.
27:53
And then after that, I've now experienced that multiple times.
27:57
So was there a catalyst? I don't know.
27:59
I think it just was, you know, I think our sexuality evolves.
28:03
I'm not saying that you're doing this and I think you'll
28:05
understand where I'm going when I say this.
28:07
It's like I hesitate to ask myself why that happened with
28:11
too much interest in finding out because I don't want to
28:14
accidentally like pathologize the fact that honestly, for me,
28:17
it was kind of random. You know, there wasn't this one
28:19
event that happened that then transformed my sexuality.
28:23
From there on out. My sexuality is always this ever
28:26
evolving thing. I like things now that I didn't
28:29
like 10 years ago, and when I was 2324 the thing that evolved
28:33
involved in my sexuality was the genders I was attracted to.
28:36
That makes complete sense and I do understand it because I
28:39
oscillate between totally being obsessed though with
28:42
understanding where my fetish came from and like totally
28:44
ignore it and being like it does not matter.
28:46
Do you know what I mean? And I go between.
28:47
Well, that's like the sex nerd in you.
28:49
Yeah. And then I have clients come to
28:52
me. They're like, I want to know
28:53
where it's from. I'm like, let's not focus on
28:55
where it's from. Let's talk about how you can
28:57
enjoy it now. Because I do think sometimes it
29:00
gets in the way of the enjoyment of it, at least for me, because
29:03
I'm like, am I weird? Everyone's weird, so it's not
29:07
even a fair question. So we're working towards
29:09
becoming a sex therapist. You're currently a freight lunch
29:12
journalist. In a future world where budget
29:15
is not an issue, right? What would you like to write
29:18
about? What direction would you like
29:19
your career to go so that you're able to bring it all together?
29:22
Oh, this question is so fun and honestly makes me a little sad
29:27
because to be honest, the answer I would give today is probably
29:31
quite different than the answer I would have given two or three
29:33
years ago. I at risk of like sounding self
29:37
congratulatory, but I felt like I was swimming in work and
29:40
assignments 345 years ago. I just felt like all of these
29:45
publications were really focused on pushing out sex education
29:49
content and that honestly is not the case right now.
29:52
A lot of publications are really pulling back on their sex
29:56
education content. And So what I want to write
30:00
about, it's like I'd be happy just writing sex education
30:03
content, 101 level guides on sex toys, sex positions and various
30:08
sex acts like lesbian sex and anal sex in the way that I was
30:11
years ago. And that's because I want that
30:13
information to continue to be readily available on the
30:17
Internet. And I don't know if that's
30:19
possible. So then if it's possible in this
30:22
political climate with the publications just pulling back
30:25
on budgets, specifically on their sex content.
30:28
And just as background, the reason a lot of these
30:30
publications are pulling back on their sex content specifically
30:33
is because it's really hard to get advertised to agree to put
30:37
product placements on the sex content.
30:40
And so as a result, it's just not as lucrative as maybe like a
30:44
fitness article might be, even if it's getting more views.
30:48
I imagine it is getting more views.
30:50
I see so many more articles shared about sex.
30:53
Maybe it's because of what I do than fitness on Instagram.
30:56
I knew where you were going with the advertising, but also
30:59
promoting it on social media. You can't really talk about this
31:02
stuff at all outside of. It's really sad because
31:05
magazines, like the articles you write, are where we got so much
31:09
information. It breaks my heart.
31:11
So I think like the realistic answer, maybe like the less
31:16
dreamer answer, is that I really hope that these publications
31:20
start to change their tune and return to the belief that sex
31:24
education matters and that sex content matters, and then hire
31:28
me to read that there my passion lies.
31:31
I wish that for you, but you've had some big success, at least
31:35
in the last year. Clue.
31:36
It's like, not just previously, because I will Google stuff
31:39
still and your articles will come up and I'm like, damn, she
31:41
was working overtime. Yeah.
31:43
You're Yeah, thanks for saying that.
31:45
So hopefully publications keep hiring us sex journalists.
31:49
And then beyond that, I would love, love, love to write a book
31:51
one day. I mean, I'm sure you have people
31:53
come on here all the time and be like, do you know who Esther
31:55
Prell is? I want to be like her, but the
31:57
queer virgin and like, yeah, hell yeah.
31:59
I want to be the sex therapist who puts out books that are
32:02
really helpful to all people and also specifically people who are
32:06
queer or LGBTQ. All of that was a beautiful
32:09
answer. I wasn't prepared for how
32:11
bittersweet it was going to be though, because it is really
32:14
tough to see things backslide. I didn't expect it when I was
32:18
younger. I was like, this is how it is
32:20
and then we got a glimmer of what it could be like and what
32:23
acceptance could be like. I just get really annoyed at how
32:26
what happens in politics actually has a huge knock on
32:29
effect in all of our media. Well, and two, I think these
32:32
extremist identities, which by the way that they're cultivated
32:37
are ultimately sex negative, are just a really quote, UN quote,
32:40
easy hat for people to hinge on. Like they give people the sense
32:44
of belonging. And I think people feel so
32:47
hopeless that this idea of having identity and just this
32:50
like real belief, regardless of how bigotry it is bigotry.
32:55
Bigoted, bigoted or bigoted? Journalist lying on her words.
32:59
Classic. Like, I think it gives people
33:01
this kind of identity that feels appealing for them.
33:05
Yeah, I mean, sometimes it's an easy sell to get people on board
33:09
with that in writing all of these articles.
33:13
I'm calling myself out here sometimes.
33:15
At the end of the day, the last thing I want to discuss is kink
33:18
because I feel I've spent my day talking about kink.
33:21
Have you ever experienced that exhaustion from being
33:24
overstimulated and thinking about sex Ed all day?
33:28
The way that I'm tired at the end of the day is the way that
33:31
I'm tired of working and being on e-mail and being a
33:35
journalist. The part of my brain I access
33:38
when I'm writing about sex is a really, really different part of
33:41
my brain and also body than having sex.
33:44
So when I finish a day of being a sex journalist, I don't
33:47
necessarily feel burnt out on sex or like unable to tap into
33:52
my libido specifically because I'm writing about sex.
33:55
If anything, though, if I'm experiencing a lot of work
33:59
stress, either related to deadlines or my e-mail is a
34:02
mess, yeah, then I might be stressed and as a result, less
34:05
interested in sex because I'm just, my brain is all over the
34:08
place. Yeah, but it's more of a fatigue
34:10
around, just like being a person who is working at the end of my
34:14
work day, every day. I go to the CrossFit gym.
34:16
I very rarely talk about my career in that space, both
34:20
because people don't ask and because they don't feel a need
34:22
to, like, really get into the gritty details of it, and also
34:25
because we're exercising like we're breathing so hard that why
34:27
not necessarily chatting. And I think for me, having that
34:30
intentional transition time also helps, right?
34:33
I am going from my work cells where I happen to write about
34:37
sex and queer sex, too. OK, now I'm going to get my
34:39
sweat on. So the advice I'm hearing, not
34:42
that I asked for advice specifically, is go outside
34:44
Amanda because I am at home all day.
34:47
I need to try going outside and touching grass.
34:51
You're like, yeah, touch grass, get that vitamin D, breathe good
34:54
air. I play pickleball in the
34:56
mornings, but like, that is my one thing.
34:58
Oh, by the way, pickleball's the most social sport I've ever
35:01
done, so if you're into it. OK, final question because I
35:05
think you've indirectly given so much great advice.
35:08
Do you have any advice for someone who may have been on a
35:12
similar journey as you in exploring their sexuality or
35:17
even finding and exploring and accepting themselves and their
35:21
sexuality? That's a great question.
35:23
Something that's helpful for me to think about, and I touched on
35:26
this, is the idea that your sexuality isn't just your sexual
35:31
orientation, right? Your sexuality is this massive
35:34
umbrella that has all these prongs underneath it.
35:37
One is your sexual orientation, one is your romantic
35:41
orientation, One's your relationship orientation, your
35:44
kinks, your fantasy. I see the time of day you like
35:47
to have sex, your sex education, any shames that you're carrying,
35:50
like it's this giant umbrella with all these things
35:53
underneath. And so if you're questioning
35:55
your sexual orientation or exploring that in yourself, it's
35:59
helpful for me to remember that. That's one prong and there's
36:03
many. When I remember that, I think it
36:05
feels less destabilizing to consider my sexual orientation
36:10
evolving because there's all these other things that are
36:12
still true about me. I love that answer.
36:15
That is the perfect answer. No notes.
36:18
I do have to ask you one question.
36:20
Who is the most interesting person you've ever interviewed?
36:23
Tough question, I know. Like or fascinating.
36:25
Maybe even just the person you were most excited to interview.
36:27
Well, I did interview Esther Perel and so since I mentioned
36:30
her, I have to mention that I interviewed her for a Pop sugar
36:33
story and that to me was very much like career bucket list.
36:36
Oh, OK, because now I'm fangirling.
36:38
What was she like? Was she a good person?
36:40
Interview. It was great.
36:42
She was straightforward. She answered exactly the
36:44
questions. There wasn't a tremendous amount
36:46
of fluff, but she was very generous in the way that she
36:49
just communicated all of the knowledge that she has.
36:51
Of course, she was perfect answer too.
36:53
OK, Gabrielle, thank you so much for coming on today.
36:57
So for everyone listening, who wants to find you?
37:00
Where can they find you? My Instagram would be great and
37:03
it's just my first name and my last name, Gabrielle Cassell.
37:07
That'll be in the show notes along with the article that I
37:09
referenced at the beginning. Gabrielle, thank you so much for
37:12
joining. This has been an absolute
37:13
pleasure. Thanks Amanda.
37:15
Chat soon. If you enjoyed this episode,
37:19
don't forget to subscribe, leave a review and share it with
37:21
anyone who might find it interesting.
37:23
And if you have any questions or topics you'd like me to cover in
37:26
future episodes, feel free to reach out e-mail
37:29
info@thekingconsultant.com. Until next time, keep on kinking
37:33
on.