Latest / The DEX Show: A Show for IT Change Makers / Culture Matters: doing DEX properly (w/ Roy Atkinson)

Transcript

Culture Matters: doing DEX properly (w/ Roy Atkinson) · The DEX Show: A Show for IT Change Makers

0:01
Welcome it, change Makers to the Deck Show with Tim Flower and Tom McGraw.
0:07
Let's get into it. Hey, Tim, how are you today?
0:10
I'm doing good, Tim? How about you? I'm not too bad.
0:13
You know that the sun is back out in London and look winge about the
0:19
weather. It's the most predictable English thing ever perhaps, But you went like
0:24
three four weeks with no sunshine at all, just a just a gray sky,
0:29
a relentless gray sky. The entire time it was it was bringing everyone
0:32
down. But the sun is, the sun is back out and I'm very
0:35
grateful, grateful to see it. Anyway, Tim, Let's get to our
0:39
fantastic guest today, suggested and introduced to us from a wonderful John Layton.
0:45
Shout out John, always always making wonderful connections for this show, always coming
0:49
up with great, great episode ideas. It's Roy Atkinson. Roy is a
0:55
writer, industry analyst, speaker and currently CEO. Actually Butterfield, is that
1:00
right? Is that right? Roy? Welcome to the show anyway, mate,
1:03
It's great to see you. It used to be here and yep,
1:04
you got it right. Excellent, excellent. So one thing that John put
1:10
under our nose was this amazing article you wrote, and you first published it
1:14
like a number of years ago, right, it was like twenty seventeen,
1:17
I think when it first came out, and it was an enterprise service management
1:21
the top five things you're not doing. You have updated it since that said,
1:26
it does look like an incredibly prescient article, and we're going to get
1:30
to why, and we're going to get to its relevance to the experienced management
1:34
space very shortly. But I wonder if you could tell us first a bit
1:37
about the background of the piece, and it's it's history, if you will,
1:41
it's reception, it's prescients, all of these themes. At the time
1:47
that I wrote that, I was the analyst for HDI, and HDI ran
1:55
a series of forums back then which were basic groups of people based on industry
2:04
verticals. So we had a higher education form, we had a retail form,
2:07
and then we had some forums that were based on role like Director's form,
2:14
leaders Forum, and coming bubbled through those discussions where we'd meet for a
2:21
couple of days with these various industry verticals. Well, we kept hearing,
2:24
we were hearing a lot about people being interested in enterprise service management because it
2:29
was becoming more of a thing in the world. People were talking about it,
2:35
but they weren't sure which road to go down or From my perspective and
2:40
listening to them, and I used to do the Desktop Support forum and participate
2:45
in some of the other forums as well's we were going about it in such
2:51
a way that they were saying, Okay, well we do itsm we do
2:53
it service management. Therefore we know how to do this. Therefore, let
2:58
us tell you how to do it, and charging in with you know,
3:01
here's the tool, here's what you do, here's all I toill read the
3:06
book something like that, and it wasn't wasn't really being very successful, and
3:13
so I said, you know, I should have write some articles about how
3:15
to do this organizationally. What are the steps you need to take, what
3:19
directions do you need to go in? And my boss at the time,
3:23
Megan Silva, suggested, you know, why don't you flip it and say
3:27
here's what you're not doing that you should be. And so I said,
3:30
okay, it sounds like a good idea, hence the birth of the series
3:32
of articles. And so I laid it out in the article that you mentioned
3:38
top five things you're not doing, and just laid it out as you know,
3:42
here's what we're going to talk about, and then wrote an article on
3:45
each one of those and it really I think hit home with a lot of
3:51
people that we never thought about the first thing being looking at the culture.
3:57
We'd ever thought about that from the beginning. You know, change management,
4:00
organizational change management tends to get bolted on at the end of a project or
4:04
a program, and that's not the right way to go about it. That
4:09
was one of the key points. So it was an interesting perspective and I
4:13
think that it still works. It's absolutely evergreen stuff. It applies to way
4:18
more than enterprise service management, and we're going to talk about that today.
4:23
So yeah, thinking specifically though about the piece itself, and it's a prognosis
4:29
of what needed to be done or what wasn't being done. How well do
4:33
you think those principles were adapted in the sort of six or so years since
4:40
its publication, And where would you before we get into sort of analogies around
4:45
enterprise service management, what's your analysis of the state of its adoption today?
4:54
Enterprise service management is still being spread around, it's not it hasn't completely permeated
5:02
industry. It's a lot more a lot more prevalent than it was then,
5:08
and we did some research on that. Back then. We actually did two
5:12
bits of research a few years apart, I think about four years apart that
5:16
showed that it was spreading and that organizations were looking into it and adopting it,
5:24
and we discovered several of the reasons why it was a really good idea.
5:28
Productivity went up. An experienced measurement such as it was, which was
5:33
primitive compared to what we have now, seemed to be much better. Employees
5:38
liked it for a bunch of different reasons. But I think that now it
5:45
has become part of or been rolled into, and this is probably a good
5:49
thing. What's called digital transformation, is it? I always saw it as
5:57
kind of a first step in that direction, and I think that that has
6:00
held true. I think that looking at how to manage aspects of work life
6:09
across the organization, how data gets handled, how the tools can be used
6:14
by various parts of the organization to make things similar, so that people can
6:19
go from accounting to sales and still have a similar experience working with some of
6:25
the same tools. That kind of approach has been successful and is a step
6:30
toward digital transformation, and Digital transformation isn't one of those things that's extremely hard
6:35
to define and everybody's got a different definition of it. But I think that
6:42
enterprise service management was a step in that direction, and I think it still
6:46
is a portion of that. You have to be able to do some of
6:50
the same things that I talked about in that series of articles. Fantastic We're
6:55
going to have a look those different items on that list momentarily and we're going
7:00
to look at their relevance. They're enduring relevance to experience management specifically. But
7:06
I wonder if you could maybe set the seam there Roy by saying where you
7:11
think experience management or decks or however you frame it fits into that wider digital
7:15
transformation picture today, how significant a piece that is the wider play, and
7:21
what your direct experience or thoughts are on this newer, kind of newer vertical
7:30
if you will, within within it, I think, ah, within it,
7:35
Yeah, Well, we'll talk about how I'm going to come back to
7:39
that. But I think that UM experience management is can be revolutionary, and
7:48
it was on a meeting with the other fellows of the Institute for Digital Transformation.
7:54
I'm one of the films there and one of the things that came up
8:00
was about organizational change, and I said that one of my AHA moments in
8:07
recent years has been that change becomes more successful when it gets pulled through the
8:15
organization rather than driven into the organization. And I gave as illustrations for that,
8:22
things like bringing their own device, shadow I consumerization of it. These
8:31
are changes that employees made and pulled them across the organization. Sometimes severy senior
8:41
employees did it. I remember working in an organization where the CEO wanted to
8:45
get the organizational email and his brand new iPhone and they had just come out
8:50
with the iPhone at the time, and I said, we can't do that.
8:54
They weren't in any way, shape or form prepared for that, and
8:58
he said, okay, So he forwarded all his email to his Gmail account,
9:05
got Gmail on his phone because that's what he wanted to do. And
9:11
that was the CEO. And of course people here having a heart attack that
9:15
goes all his email is going to but he's gonna tell him, Who's gonna
9:20
tell him? Exactly right. So I think that when we pulled changes through
9:26
the organization like that, we're gonna we have a much better chance of success
9:31
because everybody that's ever done any kind of change manage, organizational change management knows
9:37
that you run into resistance to change. People don't like to be told that
9:41
they're going to have to do something a different way. They get into a
9:46
groove and they don't want to stay there. They know how their job is
9:48
done. And it was actually a comment at an HDI local chapter meeting years
9:52
ago. We were talking about projects. What projects were people working on,
9:58
and one of the people said, you know, they just to this major
10:01
upgrade and one of the people call the service desk. When the employees called
10:05
the service desk and said, yesterday I knew how to do my job.
10:09
Today I don't, And I thought that is one of the clearest statements of
10:16
what happens to people when there's major change. However, if you give them
10:20
a stake in making that change, if you ask them if you could change
10:24
three things in your job, what would they be, What worked for you,
10:28
what doesn't work for you? And that's what it seems to me.
10:31
Anyway. Experienced management is all about you. You're taking information from those folks
10:37
in the way they interact with the tools they have and saying, Okay,
10:41
we can make this better. How do we do that? Here's how we
10:43
do it. Amazing And Tim, you're going to be providing the sort of
10:48
experience management perspective specifically on Roy's list, but I mean the festival of any
10:54
analogies Roy hasn't kind of touched upon their you think are worth drawing attention too
11:00
before we get into the nitty gritty. No, I think I think they're
11:05
all. You know, as I review the article and the and the list
11:09
of elements, they're They're almost universal. You could almost take some of these
11:15
and apply them to your personal life as well as your business life. Right,
11:18
it's their UM, their their words to live by. And I think,
11:22
you know, even if we just take a look at that first run
11:24
that need for cultural change. Some of the biggest struggles that I've seen from
11:31
our customers as they try to shift from traditional and end user compute UM service
11:39
delivery service management into an experienced culture is UM is getting everybody to shift along
11:45
with you UM. We had we had one hotel chain that in their UH
11:52
in their switch from reactive to proactive, they went out to their their PC
11:58
environment they found I don't remember what the actual it problem was, we'll call
12:03
it blue screens. They found all the thousands and thousands of blue screens that
12:05
were happening. They opened up a ticket and they sent it to the help
12:09
desk and said, here's you know, two thousands, three hundred and twelve
12:13
blue screens that all need to be fixed. The help desk said, what
12:18
is this? Where did this data come from? And close the ticket and
12:20
they said, we only take issues from customers from employees, So they were
12:26
not on board unless the employe. If it's not big enough for the employee
12:28
to call, we're not fixing it. So that cultural change for them was
12:35
a blockage to getting anything done, and continue to perpetuate the need for employees
12:41
to call the help desk. It's that cultural change. Don't underestimate I say
12:45
it a lot. The technology is the easy part is the people that are
12:48
hard. And you've really got to get the whole organization growing in the same
12:54
direction for their own benefit, not to deliver a benefit for you that really
13:00
is not in their charter. H that's a great that's a great comment for
13:05
entry one of Roy's list. So let's let's go into entry two and let's
13:09
get you to frame this one a little bit. Roy making sure it's not
13:13
about you. I love this one. It's my favorite. I think I'm
13:16
going so flesh that one out a bit more for US Festival if you would,
13:20
Well, it's not about me, this one could be. It could,
13:30
yes, for sure. Uh. The point I was really trying to
13:35
make with that one is that the language that was being used in a lot
13:39
of places at the time about enterprise service management in this case was well,
13:46
it's it service management, but we're we're moving it out to other parts of
13:50
the organization, And well, no, not really. Uh, it's service
13:58
management which was born in it first of all, it was born elsewhere in
14:03
the commercial world. And second of all, if if I'm it and I'm
14:09
coming in and I'm saying, well, I know the best way to do
14:11
things, I'm going to show you, You're going to get that employee resistance
14:16
right off the bat. People don't like to be told that they're they're totally
14:22
wrong, or they're doing things wrong, as I've learned many times trying to
14:26
correct people's grammar. But that that's another story. But you can't make it
14:31
about what you're going to do for them. You know, you can't be
14:35
condescending about it. You can't be patronizing about it. You have to say
14:39
it's about you. You have to explain what it is that you're doing,
14:45
what you want, how you go about things, and welcome back to this
14:48
over number again because it's a thing for me, and take it from there,
14:52
so it's not about you, it's about them. Once you start making
14:56
it about them, the resistance are to go down and you start to be
15:01
able to accomplish things better. I think there's even an aspect here that it
15:07
overlaps with number one. But even making sure it's about them and not you
15:13
is important step number one. But I would add to that, and I'm
15:18
trying to figure out how to phrase it it and maybe this goes to a
15:22
lot of different professions, but it people don't like to be told what to
15:26
do right. It needs to be my idea. So even making sure it's
15:30
not about me, this is about you, you're there's still an aspect of
15:33
trying to make it their idea. You know, this will allow them to
15:39
explore it and determine how they can take some level of ownership to your point
15:43
where I pull it in instead of direct it and push it on them.
15:48
Finding that communication channel, that little nuance that allows them to internalize it and
15:54
say, hey, you know what, this is a really cool idea.
15:56
Let me see how I can make it better. So me see how we
15:58
can operationalize it and not necessarily feel obligated to do something even if it's in
16:04
my best interests. People know that quitting smoking is in their best interest,
16:08
but until they internalize it and really figure out how to do it for themselves,
16:12
you can tell them all you want and they're not going to do it.
16:15
So I think it's it's kind of making sure it's not about you as
16:18
twofold. Definitely focus on them and the benefit to them, but give them
16:22
the opportunity to explore, internalize, and take it on their own. And
16:27
I always see like the next one getting your house in order. It's almost
16:30
like the inversion of a reverse side of the coin. Their ry is that
16:34
right to not making it about you, but actually making sure you are first
16:38
of all consistent with your own principles, right. I think that that's key,
16:47
and I know that there can be a lot of skepticism, and this
16:51
is one of the things experienced management has shown us for years. You know,
16:55
CIOs and their senior leaders on I T were really confused about the fact
16:59
that they were looking at their their c set that they were getting off the
17:03
service desk and it was eighty seven percent or ninety percent. And then you
17:07
sit down in meetings with executives and other parts of the organization, those of
17:11
gators going you people are terrible over there. What's wrong with you people?
17:15
And there was a total disconnect there. But once you start looking at experienced
17:21
aspects of it, then people can say things like, you know, you
17:26
don't know what you're doing in it. You don't know what you're doing.
17:30
And so to walk into other parts of the organization and have conversations about how
17:34
these principles of service management are going to benefit them, they'll say, yeah,
17:38
well they ain't benefiting us now, folks, unless you're doing it well.
17:45
So making sure your own houses in order and make sure that you can
17:48
demonstrate to them how service management principles in this case in ESM have worked for
17:56
you. You're going to have again, you're going to have resistance. You're
18:00
going to have people being very skeptical about the benefits and so forth and so
18:04
on. But if you have your house in order and you can say,
18:07
oh, look what happened when we did this. We improved our ability to
18:12
deliver services by x percent over the last year by doing this, this and
18:18
this. Now they'll say, oh, that's cool, show us how to
18:22
do that. It's a different, different thing. And in my days and
18:26
enterprise it. One of the early things that we struggled with was as we
18:30
engaged with other IT departments. We had multiple data sources as CCM Active Directory,
18:40
anti virus, and we would look to leverage that data and with other
18:47
teams, and their first piece of feedback to us was all this data overlaps
18:51
with each other and it's all different. You have no source of truth.
18:53
The data you're giving me. I can't rely on. It's wrong, it's
18:57
conflicting, it's inaccurate, so therefore none of it is valid. And we
19:03
couldn't engage and spread awareness on what we were doing until we got our own
19:07
house and order, bring in a single source of truth, validate where the
19:11
data is wrong, fix the data, and then start engaging with other teams.
19:17
And then to just kind of stay on the external analogy that quitting smoking,
19:22
you can tell somebody all the benefits it's going to, you know,
19:26
reduce your cancer resk, it's going to increase your health, your longivity.
19:30
And that's even if they internalize it and they agree with it, when they
19:33
look back at you and say, well, hang on a minute, you
19:36
still smoke, right. The message gets deluded when you don't have your own
19:40
house and order. So the same thing goes with experience management. You've got
19:44
to have that clear definition of what you're doing, accurate data, get your
19:49
own house and order, and then you can start to bring in other teams
19:53
to improve experience in a broader way. With the next one, right,
20:00
I want you to set the scene. It's it's learning other languages. Set
20:03
the scene for this one because I'm really interested to hear how this one translates,
20:07
because I kind of think about experience management as almost translating everyone else into
20:12
one new language. But you know, I want to hit Tim on this
20:17
first. But first Roy set the scene for us. What's what was irrelevance
20:19
of this one? But I think you touched on something there that's that's kind
20:25
of interesting actually, And he said that it translates things, so we immediately
20:33
know that there are other languages. I think that one of the one of
20:37
the things experienced management does is it puts things in different set of terms makes
20:41
us look at things in a different way. One of the problems that IT
20:45
has had historically. You know, people can talk about IT speak or geek
20:48
speak. We have a tendency to view the world from the perspective of technical
20:57
things, and and even the length of the most adopted language of IT,
21:06
which came primarily from IT till that kind of made the language of it service
21:14
management common. Even there we run into a problem as soon as we test
21:18
start taking that outside of IT. And the example I usually use is an
21:25
unplanned interruption of services. According to IT is called an incident. An incident
21:33
means something entirely different. When you sit down with HR. Do you talk
21:37
to you HR people about an incident, You're talking about something much more than
21:42
your email didn't open properly this morning. Right, You've got a problem on
21:47
your hands. And so to understand what they mean by something as opposed to
21:52
what you mean by something can be very insightful. And length language is a
21:57
thing for me. I speak several I've always tried to learn more about them,
22:03
and I'm fascinated by the fact that the same word can mean something entirely
22:07
different to you from what it does to me, and so I think it's
22:14
really important to sit down with people and hash out how you can communicate clearly
22:21
and effectively across the organization without running into these barriers. Well, that doesn't
22:26
mean the same thing. The other thing that was such about a little bit
22:30
earlier is finding those ways to say something in meaningful terms to somebody that lives
22:41
in a different world from you. And I'm thinking back to a particular event
22:45
that happened when I was trying to explain the importance of security precautions which were
22:52
getting in the way of research that was being done at this research laboratory I
22:56
was working at, andientists were very resistant to the fact that we were trying
23:02
to put some of these cybersecurity controls in place and saying that's too hard.
23:06
I mean, you're making it too hard for me. And I don't understand
23:10
it. My research is publicly funded. It's going to be public when I'm
23:15
done with it. It's going to be published, it's going to be available
23:18
to everybody who cares if somebody hacks it. And I said, well,
23:23
you might not care if somebody steals the information, but you're going to care
23:27
a lot if somebody changes the information. If somebody comes in and turns all
23:33
the ones into twos in your Excel spreadsheet that you've been running for the last
23:37
ten years on your research, you're going to have a problem with that.
23:41
And then the light bulb started to go on, Oh yeah, okay,
23:44
well, so it's finding the way to communicate the concept in the right way
23:49
to somebody so that they understand it. It's all about communication, share some
23:55
internal conversations and even call them. A bit of a struggle in language and
24:00
terminology. Multiple teams use the term use case, and when we started to
24:07
put this, put different communications together and talk with each other. My definition
24:11
of a use case is you know, oh well, I'll put out a
24:15
couple of them. Is it a technical use case like a blue screen is
24:19
a Is it a broader use case from the customer like reducing tickets is a
24:30
different kind of use case that can be calculated for financial value. So what
24:36
we determined was in our inability to come to a common definition of the term
24:41
use case is we had to put a qualifier on it. It's either a
24:44
value use case, a customer use case, or a technical use case.
24:47
Now we've got a definition that we can stick with and we all know what
24:49
we're talking about. Conversely, in my previous job at an assurance company,
24:56
we had five different lines of business, five different sets of customers, and
25:02
some of them would overlap, so the sales teams would want to try to
25:04
cross sell, and in claims, the customer record was a customer was an
25:10
account number in property insurance, it was a customer ID in life insurance,
25:17
it was a customer record. So the same thing that they all needed to
25:22
use was called something different everywhere, and they needed to then get to a
25:26
common term and a common way to talk about it. So a language definitely
25:30
matters, and it's all about not only the communication that we do, but
25:36
the collaboration in getting to commonality. It's it's the same point that you make
25:41
with enterprise service management. You've got to get everybody on the same page and
25:45
then and then you can move forward. Great and number five, the last
25:52
in the list, it stands out to me, Tim because it smells to
25:56
me of what we've been talking about and recorded an episode on Just the Have
25:59
a Week, which is the whole feme of fake decks. In other words,
26:03
ensuring that your tool can't do in this instance ESM properly so you know,
26:10
at the time Roy did, did you have a lot of tools which
26:14
were overstating their efficiency or a lot of people kind of trying to jump the
26:18
bandwagon different vendors and such like. Because it's something we've been discussing and finding
26:22
in the experience space presently. What vendors saying yes to things that they can't
26:30
do? Noh, yeah, yeah. I remember having a conversation with somebody
26:41
who lives on your side of the pond, who shall remain nameless, but
26:45
who was reviewing massive RFPs at the time. I have four to six hundred
26:49
pages from an RFP for a particular set of work, and saying that,
26:57
well, you know, we're just to check yes on every single box anyway,
27:03
and you have to understand that going in. But yeah, I think
27:07
that a lot of tools were overstating their capability or didn't understand enterprise service management
27:18
well enough to put all these things in perspective, didn't give the users and
27:23
customers a way to make sure that they could translate, do the translation and
27:29
the tool provide common ground do some customizations so that it made sense to the
27:34
engineering department when they were trying to do things with the tool as you know,
27:41
as opposed to it. So not just taking that it tool rolling out
27:45
across the organization. They're saying, here, use this. It wasn't always
27:49
property configured, It didn't have the capabilities that they needed, and it wasn't
27:55
able to be put into a format that made sense to those other parts of
27:59
the organization. So yeah, you have to make sure that those things work.
28:04
In our instance where I was at a workshop, my boss was also
28:11
at this workshop, and for part of the session that we were in,
28:15
they split us out. They didn't have enough rooms to put us all separately
28:18
to do a breakout, say, put us in different corners of the room.
28:22
And the group that I was part of was supposed to say, what
28:26
do I need to know to make sure that this software product is going to
28:30
work for me? And so we just wrote on the flip chart and I
28:34
heard my boss's voice from across the room saying, oh, I'd always one
28:40
roys is, and I started laughing because mine was does it work? It's
28:47
always good to know, basically does it work? And that's the question that
28:51
people who are trying to use your tool are always going to ask, does
28:55
it work? Yeah, you've got to get the fundamentals. Right first,
29:00
it's got to have it's got to work, it's got to work well,
29:03
it's got to be intuitive. Those are kind of all of the baseline things
29:07
in any RFP to check the box and then verify, right, trust,
29:15
but verify. But the you know it, people are drawn and this holds
29:19
true an employee experience along with I think probably every other technology. They're drawn
29:25
to the cool capabilities, the cool functions. Hey, look what I can
29:29
do with this workflow. Look what I can do with this checkbox in it
29:30
that enables all this other capability the RFP. The key thing about the RFP
29:36
is those technical requirements in the RFP are in direct support of the outcomes that
29:41
that business needs. Capability is garbage if it doesn't allow you to achieve the
29:47
outcome that you're looking for. And that's why technology and we focus on this
29:52
and employee experience all the time. And a time of reference back to that
29:56
other that other episode with fake decks. You know, you can detect all
30:02
the blue screens you want in real time on the machine, but if your
30:04
administrators don't know about it for half an hour, all those employees have already
30:07
called the help desk and you've already missed the boat. And likewise, if
30:11
you're not correlating those blue screens in real time against every other event on the
30:18
machine and around the enterprise, if you can't do cause and effect correlation,
30:22
you're It's great that you can detect, but you don't have a capable of
30:26
specific capability that's going to allow you to address the problem. So your tools
30:30
are only as good as the outcomes that they enable you to achieve. I
30:37
put it. I put this in a multitude of ways in writing. I'd
30:41
say, nobody walks out to their garage on a Saturday morning with the nine
30:48
sixteenth cent ratchet and says, what can I fix today? All right?
30:52
They're not looking for what they can fix with the tool. They're looking for
30:56
how the tool will help them address the issues that they have to address.
31:00
And so it's got to do the job. And I hasten to it right,
31:04
And hopefully it's not the ten millimeter socket, because that one's always missing.
31:08
It's it's always the ten millimeters socket, right. I can't I can't
31:14
believe your your list has us to the test of time like this man.
31:17
It's been it's been great. Great to go back over it um and great
31:22
to talk to you. Where can where can listeners find you? Follow you?
31:27
What's your latest work? Anything you want them to know? Sure?
31:32
Well, one of the things that they can do is go to the Institute
31:36
for Digital Transformation, and I mentioned that I was a fellow there. We
31:41
recently published a book it's called Digital Transformation Demystified, and I contributed a chapter
31:48
on customer experience to that that book, So check that out. Available on
31:55
Amazon and wants of other places as well. You can find me. Edgar
32:00
Clift and Butterfield dot com is the website. Roy Atkinson is the handle on
32:04
Twitter, and Roy at Clifton Butterfield dot com is the email. There you
32:09
go, fantastic roll check the show notes everyone. All of those resources will
32:14
be linked to, and of course we'll link to the original article that sparked
32:17
this discussion, and we'll also link to that Fake Decks episode we mentioned then
32:22
recorded a few weeks ago, which I feel is plenty relevant to some of
32:25
the topics touched to. They just just remains for me to thank thank you
32:30
so much for coming on right. It's been great to talk to you today,
32:34
great stuff right and been a great great chat and Tim. For those
32:39
of you who aren't seeing them on video, Tim and I apparently decided to
32:43
go to the same wardrobe and haircut specialist today, So Brother from Another Mother
32:50
Deely long flowing locks for the listeners. To make sure that you never miss
32:57
an episode, subscribe to the show in apple Pie Podcasts, Spotify, or
33:00
your favorite podcast player. And if you're listening on apple Podcasts, make sure
33:05
to leave a rating of the show. Just tap the number of stars you
33:07
think the podcast deserves. If you'd like to learn more about how next think
33:12
can help you improve your digital employee experience, head over to nextthink dot com.
33:16
Thank you so much for listening. Until next time,