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What is our relationship with “No”? · Life In Flow Podcast

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to the Life In Flow podcast.
• 0:03
  SPEAKER_02: The three of us, Yulia, Polina, and Irina, are exploring what Life In Flow and Flow In Life is.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_01: Join us as we experiment, test our diverse hypotheses, and have fun in the process.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_02: Will we find an answer?
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_02: This isn't just an intellectual discussion.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_02: We're co-creating a shared field beyond words.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_02: We're attuning to what emerges moment by moment so that
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_02: the conversation itself becomes a group flow experience.
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_01: And we invite you to become an active participant in this experiment.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_01: There will be pauses and moments of silence.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_01: We leave them on purpose because this is where magic happens.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_00: Go beyond the intellectual information.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_00: Listen with your whole body.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_00: And notice how your somatic experience shifts in the process.
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_00: Share with us what reveals itself in the space where mind, body, and energy flow together.
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome to the new episode of Life In Flow podcast.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_01: Here we are again.
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_01: Yulia that started our ritual that we are now using to begin our conversations.
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_01: Polina and I, Irina, will be steering the flow today.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_01: And today we will continue.
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_01: The series of discussions that happened to flow one from the other,
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_01: it all started in the episode that is called I vs. We,
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_01: Who Wins?,
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_01: where we were exploring
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_01: possible ideal futures in relationship to The relationship
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_01: between the collective and the individual.
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_01: And in that conversation,
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_01: one of the ideas that emerged was that
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_01: one of the main principles that we believe
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_01: that should rule that utopia that we were uncovering is the principle of yes and.
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_01: And that made me think
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_01: How the world that turns around the principle of yes and could function,
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_01: that led me to the doubt that it actually can't function without us from time
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_01: to time having to say a no.
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_01: And that initiated the series of discussions regarding the convergence.
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_01: I think we will put the names of all the previous conversations of
• 3:23
  SPEAKER_01: the previous episodes in the description of this one.
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_01: So you could follow the stream of these episodes.
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_01: So I wanted to explore initially
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_01: how we could
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_01: combine generatively the principle of yes and...
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_01: With the necessity of saying no to certain things
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_01: so that our no wouldn't kill all
• 4:01
  SPEAKER_01: the creativity and all the generativity that the principle of yes and is supposed
• 4:10
  SPEAKER_01: to nurture.
• 4:13
  SPEAKER_01: However, The conversations flow as they flow and things emerge.
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_01: So we started with exploring how we make decisions in general that led us to
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_01: the question whether we make decisions at all.
• 4:33
  SPEAKER_01: Hence, we had to discuss the topic of free will and its existence or in existence.
• 4:41
  SPEAKER_01: And yet today I want us to go back
• 4:47
  SPEAKER_01: To my original intention of exploring
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_01: how to combine the convergence and
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_01: the divergence so that saying no to things wouldn't kill the creativity of yes and.
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_01: I want to make a note,
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_01: first of all to two of your girls,
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_01: that in our previous conversations,
• 5:31
  SPEAKER_01: we didn't come to any definite conclusions regarding
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_01: whether we are making any decisions at all, whether we're making any choices.
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_01: And we talked a lot about the
• 5:47
  SPEAKER_01: difference between having the free will and the agency.
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_01: And we said that having the agency means for us that we are always navigating
• 6:00
  SPEAKER_01: the interconnectedness of
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_01: the world that is As it was described as a communion
• 6:11
  SPEAKER_01: on subjects with their own agencies too.
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_01: So it's always the co-creation of the different
• 6:21
  SPEAKER_01: agencies and interdependencies
• 6:23
  SPEAKER_01: and interconnectedness.
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_01: And I totally support this view.
• 6:35
  SPEAKER_01: However,
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_01: In order for us not to steer away again
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_01: from the conversation I would like to have,
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_01: although we will see what emerges,
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_01: I want us to focus this time specifically on the part where within this...
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_01: Sphere where we do have the agency and we do make choices and we do make decisions.
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_01: Although with total awareness that it's not only totally ours,
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_01: nothing depends totally on us and it's all the result of different interdependencies
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_01: and influences from all other Subjects of the world,
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_01: of our environment and everything we are connected with.
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_01: I will just give some examples more from our experiences.
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_01: For example, when we are discussing some
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_01: Things regarding the project and Yulia from time to time would say like girls,
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_01: what do you think if we do this or that?
• 7:54
  SPEAKER_01: Why don't we try these things?
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_01: So in this sentence is already implied that we would make certain decision
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_01: that will influence our action and something will come out of it.
• 8:11
  SPEAKER_01: Or, for example,
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_01: when sometimes Polina would say when she wants to propose something,
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_01: she would say, like,
• 8:17
  SPEAKER_01: may I ask you to be open to this proposal and just to consider it before saying no.
• 8:26
  SPEAKER_01: Which means that Polina also expects from us to
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_01: apply certain behavior
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_01: and certain attitude that would change things.
• 8:41
  SPEAKER_01: Something in the expected outcome in the field between us.
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_01: So what I want to discuss today,
• 8:50
  SPEAKER_01: I want us to focus on this part of where we do exercise our agency
• 8:56
  SPEAKER_01: and we make decisions and make choices.
• 9:05
  SPEAKER_01: Basically, I want us to discuss
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_01: How we say no,
• 9:11
  SPEAKER_01: what is the function of the no,
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_01: and
• 9:17
  SPEAKER_01: what
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_01: better ways of saying no there could be
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_01: so
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_01: that this say no could be combined generatively with the The attitude of yes and
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_01: with this openness towards the divergent and creativity of life.
• 9:45
  SPEAKER_01: I will say a little bit more later in the conversation when we get specifically
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_01: to this part of the discussion.
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_01: But before that, of course, we will start with the game.
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_01: But also I want us today to say no to the visual part of our perception.
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_01: I really loved our episodes when we were doing it with the masks on.
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_01: So I invite us,
• 10:17
  SPEAKER_01: the three of us,
• 10:17
  SPEAKER_01: to put our masks on today and we will do our game with the eyes closed.
• 10:26
  SPEAKER_00: It's dark and quiet.
• 10:29
  SPEAKER_01: Dark and quiet, yes, because we are waiting for all our members to be ready in this darkness.
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_01: And it's very,
• 10:43
  SPEAKER_01: really very curious how I personally
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_01: feel the
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_01: two of you in the space
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_01: of this darkness.
• 10:57
  SPEAKER_01: Around me when we close our eyes and put our masks on.
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_01: So, are you two ready to begin to play?
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 11:11
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 11:13
  SPEAKER_01: So, I want us first to explore creatively just
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_01: different faces of a word no.
• 11:29
  SPEAKER_01: Our game will have two parts and the first part,
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_01: in the first part I want us just to invite to play with saying
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_01: with different intonations.
• 11:46
  SPEAKER_01: We have done this game several times
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_01: previously in a little bit different setup but
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_01: So it's just, let's set up the water.
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_01: For example,
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_01: I will start,
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_01: Yulia will follow,
• 12:05
  SPEAKER_01: and then Polina will close the circle,
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_01: and we will do, let's say, three rounds to squeeze our creative juices.
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_01: And the premise is just
• 12:26
  SPEAKER_01: Every time try to say a no with a new intonation,
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_01: with new intention,
• 12:33
  SPEAKER_01: you're like putting another meaning into this no or just maybe playing with
• 12:40
  SPEAKER_01: the sound, with the voice,
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_01: whatever emerges for you
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_01: in the moment.
• 12:51
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, let's start.
• 12:57
  SPEAKER_01: No.
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_01: No.
• 13:07
  SPEAKER_02: No.
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_02: No.
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_02: No.
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_02: No.
• 13:29
  SPEAKER_00: No.
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_00: No.
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_01: No.
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_01: No!
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, I don't know how many rounds we did, but it was very curious.
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know how it was for you.
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_01: I really
• 14:15
  SPEAKER_01: felt the different vibrations of the snow expanding in the field.
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_01: It was very curious to observe.
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, there were definitely a variety of vibrations,
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_02: and also I was observing my system responding differently to
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_02: the different vibrations.
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, something to think about.
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so the different part of the game.
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_01: You probably...
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_01: Are familiar with the game where people,
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_01: for example,
• 14:58
  SPEAKER_01: a group of people think of a person that everybody knows and
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_01: one member of
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_01: the group doesn't know who the other,
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_01: what is the person the other people are thinking of.
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_01: And so everyone is describing this person in metaphors,
• 15:19
  SPEAKER_01: like if this person was an animal, then...
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_01: He or she would be this animal or if this person was a flower, it would be this flower, etc.
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_01: And then like the purpose of the game is to
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_01: divinate like
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_01: who is this person everyone is talking about.
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_01: So I want us to play the same game about the word no.
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_01: So the
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_01: The premise of the game is that each of us start,
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_01: if the word no would be,
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_01: and then each would pick a category that whatever would come to her mind.
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_01: For example, if the word no was furniture, then it would be that.
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_01: And the next one would follow, if a word no was an animal, it would be that.
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_01: And so on.
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_01: Again, let's...
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_02: Like what would that object or what would that object be if it embodied the word no?
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_02: Is that what you mean?
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_02: Or if...
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_01: Object or subject?
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, like it could be,
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_01: first of all, yes,
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_01: we're going back to the topic of subjects versus objects,
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_01: and we agreed that everything is a subject with its own agency,
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_01: but it's a different discussion.
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_01: So like if a word no embodied this category,
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_01: so like if,
• 17:15
  SPEAKER_01: for example,
• 17:15
  SPEAKER_01: if I start,
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_01: if a word no was a flower it would be a cactus
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_01: and so like Yulia continues with
• 17:29
  SPEAKER_01: the different category then Polina continues with the different category etc
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_01: and let's do three rounds two of this
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_00: so Yulia you continue okay if the word no were
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_00: a bird
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_00: It would be a buzzard.
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_01: I will need to check out the dictionary afterwards.
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_00: This bird is remarkable in that it is a bird of prey and it preys on dead animals.
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, okay, okay.
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_01: I got the picture.
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_02: Like a turkey vulture?
• 18:29
  SPEAKER_00: A turkey vulture?
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_00: That's a good question.
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_01: It's a prey bird that preys on death.
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's a good picture.
• 18:45
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_01: There's the first thing that comes to your mind.
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, but the problem is that a lot of things that first come to my mind,
• 18:59
  SPEAKER_02: I don't want to say because it could be inflaming in terms of it could be political
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_02: or it could be this or it could be that.
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm like, I don't want to bring that energy into this.
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_01: This is a very interesting discussion already.
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_01: We will include it later on in the conversation, but so far, let's go into complete divergence.
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, okay.
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_02: If the word no was a body of water,
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_02: it would be a self-cleaning creek that's actually really smelly.
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_01: That is very interesting.
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_01: Image.
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_01: Very interesting.
• 19:51
  SPEAKER_01: If a word no was a profession, then it would be a security guard.
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_00: If the word no were a plan?
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_00: It would be a dandelion,
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_00: dandelion that with its presence is saying no,
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_00: no to you and no to you and no to you as well, because this is only my space.
• 20:27
  SPEAKER_00: A very interesting comparison.
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 20:31
  SPEAKER_01: Comparison.
• 20:33
  SPEAKER_01: Comparison.
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_02: If the word no was an outfit, it would be a corporate suit.
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_01: If the word no was an animal,
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_01: it would be a crocodile.
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_00: If the word no were a musical instrument, it would be a really
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_00: big drum.
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_00: The one that Reverberates in the whole system.
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_00: No.
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_02: If the word no was a shape, it would be an angle.
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_01: Just one angle.
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, or many.
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_02: An angle or angular.
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_01: Good.
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_01: Well, thank you very much for playing.
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_01: Let's
• 21:59
  SPEAKER_01: keep with us the awareness of these,
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_01: again, different vibrations and different metaphors
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_01: that hopefully will help us
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_01: to
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_01: Explore more creatively in their following parts of the conversations,
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_01: all the functions of a no and how to deal with it.
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_01: Now, let's tell each other some stories.
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_02: Are we keeping the masks on?
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, we are keeping the masks on because we said no to the visual for the whole episode.
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, okay.
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_01: Are you feeling uncomfortable?
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_01: Do you want to take it off?
• 22:51
  SPEAKER_02: No, I just...
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_02: I wanted to also have the visual as we interact with the word no.
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_01: No.
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_01: We are saying no.
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_00: No, Polina, no.
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 23:09
  SPEAKER_01: So, the first question is...
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_01: What is one of the important no's in your life?
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_01: Just tell us a story.
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_01: It could be a no that you received or it could be a no that you said to something or someone.
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_01: And why was it important?
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I'm gonna start,
• 24:00
  SPEAKER_00: and I hope the importance comes as you share the story,
• 24:05
  SPEAKER_00: because right now it evades me,
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_00: but there was so many no's that it's just a really good fit.
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_00: And there was a time in my life,
• 24:15
  SPEAKER_00: a couple years ago,
• 24:17
  SPEAKER_00: when I was trying myself as a founder,
• 24:22
  SPEAKER_00: founder of a startup,
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_00: And the startup had to do with sales,
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_00: salespeople actually, trying to help them become more resilient.
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_00: And in the context of first learning more about salespeople by embodying
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_00: a salesperson,
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_00: and secondly,
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_00: in the context of getting some traction Getting some,
• 24:56
  SPEAKER_00: whatever, customers, demos and things like that.
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_00: I started a project of cold calling.
• 25:08
  SPEAKER_00: Cold calling, you know, cold, oh, yeah.
• 25:13
  SPEAKER_00: It makes me, ah,
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_00: just really,
• 25:17
  SPEAKER_00: something is shaking inside because it was, ah, So it was so abundant in those.
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_02: Something is shaking inside now as you're describing it to us?
• 25:33
  SPEAKER_00: As I was recalling this experience because it was really super uncomfortable.
• 25:41
  SPEAKER_00: And so basically you start your day knowing that today you will hear, know,
• 25:49
  SPEAKER_00: Depending on how many calls you're gonna make,
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_00: whatever, at least 10 times, maybe more.
• 26:07
  SPEAKER_00: But that was a lot of engagement with NOS and that project didn't really end
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_00: with anything meaningful for me.
• 26:15
  SPEAKER_00: There probably were some learnings that are Relevant now, and there are, yeah.
• 26:22
  SPEAKER_00: But now I'm even like struggling to say,
• 26:29
  SPEAKER_00: like having heard,
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_00: having experienced,
• 26:31
  SPEAKER_00: and having been hit with so many no's,
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_00: like what did it do to me?
• 26:43
  SPEAKER_00: I think it...
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_00: I think it was like so brutal for my system that I had to recover for at least a year.
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_00: And that makes me wonder how our world is actually founded on no's,
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_00: not even, not only sales world, but actually most of them.
• 27:17
  SPEAKER_00: Professional world.
• 27:19
  SPEAKER_00: Because it's,
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_00: first you're gonna hear a lot of no's and only then you're gonna hear a yes.
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm wondering what it does to us and maybe what it does to our relationship
• 27:32
  SPEAKER_00: with no that in other contexts is not that bad at all.
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 27:43
  SPEAKER_01: This is a very curious experience.
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_01: And because many times we hear similar stories,
• 27:56
  SPEAKER_01: but with the message that the person normally would say that,
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_01: yeah, this is how I launch to just to sustain the rejections and don't react on it.
• 28:09
  SPEAKER_01: So you get trained to receive a no and don't.
• 28:16
  SPEAKER_01: Don't take it personally or whatever.
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_01: And it's very curious to hear that you had a very different relation to it.
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_01: Because I remember when I was hearing your stories
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_01: when we were still interacting just on LinkedIn and you were sharing the stories
• 28:40
  SPEAKER_01: of this endeavor,
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_01: every time when you were Talyn, how you were doing this cold calling.
• 28:49
  SPEAKER_01: Something in me was just shrinking and chattering.
• 28:54
  SPEAKER_01: And I was thinking, I don't know how she is doing it.
• 28:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_00: I think I was trying to convince myself as I was doing it.
• 29:04
  SPEAKER_00: Because actually I was in the space of resilience and wanting and hoping that I can...
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_00: Teach salespeople to be resilient.
• 29:16
  SPEAKER_00: It sounds so totally stupid now.
• 29:21
  SPEAKER_00: Anyway, I was delusional back then saying that those no were not affecting me.
• 29:29
  SPEAKER_00: I think no's in
• 29:34
  SPEAKER_00: this context and the number of no's,
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_00: I don't think human system is designed for that.
• 29:47
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I think maybe it also depends
• 29:53
  SPEAKER_01: on the general
• 29:57
  SPEAKER_01: perceptivity and sensitivity of the person.
• 30:03
  SPEAKER_01: If you are so attuned to all the interconnectedness and you are attuned to yourself,
• 30:11
  SPEAKER_01: then yes, you would be much more sensible to that.
• 30:15
  SPEAKER_01: To this vibration and this quantity, let's say.
• 30:22
  SPEAKER_01: But
• 30:24
  SPEAKER_01: other people who are still living in this context
• 30:30
  SPEAKER_01: of shutting down certain signals from the environment and within themselves just
• 30:40
  SPEAKER_01: because their first priority is to get things done.
• 30:46
  SPEAKER_01: I guess they really just learn to ignore
• 30:53
  SPEAKER_01: whatever
• 30:59
  SPEAKER_01: the vibration of a gnome might do
• 31:03
  SPEAKER_01: to the nervous system.
• 31:06
  SPEAKER_00: Actually, I think the vibration is still there and ignoring doesn't make it go away.
• 31:10
  SPEAKER_00: It's just that you will be processing the Aftermath at some point later and maybe
• 31:19
  SPEAKER_00: in
• 31:23
  SPEAKER_00: this accumulated volume that might be much more difficult to process than
• 31:33
  SPEAKER_00: if you were sensitive to it and were kind of like sorting through this as you go
• 31:39
  SPEAKER_00: and realizing that now you have crossed
• 31:45
  SPEAKER_00: Now you've exceeded your capacity to hold and process notes.
• 31:55
  SPEAKER_02: But also,
• 31:59
  SPEAKER_02: I think it's important to at least Consider that this is from the perspective of,
• 32:07
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_02: of a female versus I don't I'm not sure if a male receives and then the vibration of
• 32:17
  SPEAKER_02: an all the same as a female does,
• 32:18
  SPEAKER_02: because from the work of Alison,
• 32:21
  SPEAKER_02: for example, Armstrong and some other people that I've learned from.
• 32:29
  SPEAKER_02: The female system receives a no that goes almost to survival level.
• 32:36
  SPEAKER_02: So it's almost like a no to you,
• 32:38
  SPEAKER_02: to all of you as a being, rather than just a no to the question you're asking.
• 32:46
  SPEAKER_02: And so that discernment in our system is...
• 32:56
  SPEAKER_02: I think it takes a lot more to build it up than potentially for the male counterpart.
• 33:11
  SPEAKER_02: So I think that's an important context that maybe we should also add to this discussion.
• 33:21
  SPEAKER_01: Yep.
• 33:23
  SPEAKER_01: This is a very interesting perspective.
• 33:32
  SPEAKER_01: Also something worth exploring and pondering on.
• 33:36
  SPEAKER_01: Because
• 33:39
  SPEAKER_01: I have come across a lot
• 33:45
  SPEAKER_01: on this comparison between how men are trained
• 33:52
  SPEAKER_01: In our society to receive rejection and how women at the same time are not,
• 34:02
  SPEAKER_01: but it was always discussed in the terms of really like the social interactions,
• 34:11
  SPEAKER_01: not in terms of that our energetic systems might work.
• 34:17
  SPEAKER_01: Differently,
• 34:18
  SPEAKER_01: that basically what people tend to say that,
• 34:21
  SPEAKER_01: especially in the context of interpersonal relationships,
• 34:26
  SPEAKER_01: that
• 34:29
  SPEAKER_01: when a boy
• 34:35
  SPEAKER_01: starts approaching girls that he thinks he likes,
• 34:40
  SPEAKER_01: or for whatever reason he approaches us,
• 34:43
  SPEAKER_01: that in order to establish certain relationship,
• 34:48
  SPEAKER_01: It is viewed in our society that if a boy gets rejected by a girl,
• 34:55
  SPEAKER_01: then it's just a point in favor of a boy that he was...
• 35:03
  SPEAKER_01: Brave enough to come up to the girl until that he took the initiative and etc.
• 35:08
  SPEAKER_01: So it's much easier for them to learn to receive the no and to sustain it without
• 35:16
  SPEAKER_01: the big damage.
• 35:17
  SPEAKER_01: Whereas if the girl comes up to the boy and receives the rejection, then there is like a lot of
• 35:34
  SPEAKER_01: Almost like slut-shaming that intrinsically falls onto the girl because she broke
• 35:43
  SPEAKER_01: a lot of societal rules and sort of like this rejection,
• 35:49
  SPEAKER_01: this no was the due punishment to her for that.
• 35:55
  SPEAKER_01: And that is why women are much less trained To sustain the receiving of a no.
• 36:07
  SPEAKER_01: But the concept that you describe,
• 36:12
  SPEAKER_01: Paulina, I think is very interesting and it's worth considering and exploring.
• 36:22
  SPEAKER_02: Well, we don't know.
• 36:24
  SPEAKER_02: It's one of those, again, conversations where it's chicken and egg because
• 36:32
  SPEAKER_02: We don't do enough research to really establish what are the biological differences,
• 36:39
  SPEAKER_02: right, to begin with.
• 36:43
  SPEAKER_02: And then what you just brought up is the socio-normative differences
• 36:46
  SPEAKER_02: that are like built in to us from the get go,
• 36:50
  SPEAKER_02: which of course will also influence how the two different systems respond in
• 36:57
  SPEAKER_02: a context of a no.
• 37:00
  SPEAKER_02: But also In terms of our society,
• 37:08
  SPEAKER_02: the man is in the role of pursuing, right?
• 37:11
  SPEAKER_02: And the woman is in the role of being pursued.
• 37:14
  SPEAKER_02: Usually, that's how I grew up, with that concept and that frame.
• 37:20
  SPEAKER_02: So if
• 37:24
  SPEAKER_02: your role is to pursue, that will automatically change the neural wiring.
• 37:32
  SPEAKER_02: For striving and for getting more no's in that pursuit, right?
• 37:37
  SPEAKER_02: Yes is no's, but just that concept of you're in the role of pursuing.
• 37:43
  SPEAKER_02: That gives you a different energetic neuromuscular,
• 37:49
  SPEAKER_02: like neural stance from an early age versus...
• 37:56
  SPEAKER_02: For the woman,
• 37:57
  SPEAKER_02: for example,
• 37:58
  SPEAKER_02: if I am waiting to be pursued,
• 38:02
  SPEAKER_02: if I'm looking at the world in terms of how will this boy pursue me
• 38:08
  SPEAKER_02: or this potential future husband
• 38:16
  SPEAKER_02: or even in friendships, if that's your...
• 38:19
  SPEAKER_02: Lens that you're looking through,
• 38:21
  SPEAKER_02: it would really complicate the entry into the corporate world,
• 38:27
  SPEAKER_02: for example,
• 38:28
  SPEAKER_02: or just the working world for a woman because she hasn't really practiced pursuing.
• 38:37
  SPEAKER_02: And so now she's being put into a position where she now has to pursue and
• 38:45
  SPEAKER_02: Get into a different physiological,
• 38:49
  SPEAKER_02: neurological state, which she hasn't really potentially practiced with.
• 38:54
  SPEAKER_02: And this is,
• 38:55
  SPEAKER_02: of course,
• 38:55
  SPEAKER_02: a generalization because lots of girls will ask a boy they like out
• 38:59
  SPEAKER_02: or they will make the first move.
• 39:02
  SPEAKER_02: We don't hear those aspects as much as we hear the normal, you know, normal in quotes, right?
• 39:11
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 39:14
  SPEAKER_02: The more accepted version is the guy pursues, the woman is being pursued.
• 39:19
  SPEAKER_02: But of course, there's other variables that actually occur in nature.
• 39:26
  SPEAKER_02: But in our society, we're not prepared for what eventually will be.
• 39:33
  SPEAKER_02: I think that's actually where we're at a disadvantage when we're entering the workforce.
• 39:42
  SPEAKER_02: Because we haven't built up kind of the right musculature,
• 39:48
  SPEAKER_02: so to speak,
• 39:49
  SPEAKER_02: for the type of activity that's required when you're in the position of having
• 39:55
  SPEAKER_02: to pursue something,
• 39:56
  SPEAKER_02: having to apply for jobs,
• 39:58
  SPEAKER_02: having to prove yourself to potential hiring managers,
• 40:04
  SPEAKER_02: negotiating salaries, like all of these
• 40:09
  SPEAKER_02: We are not really brought up to be prepared for as women.
• 40:15
  SPEAKER_02: Well, again,
• 40:16
  SPEAKER_02: it's a generalization,
• 40:17
  SPEAKER_02: but I think a generalization that might be accurate for a lot of us.
• 40:25
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I think I agree with both parts,
• 40:28
  SPEAKER_01: with the situation you described and that it's generalization, of course.
• 40:34
  SPEAKER_01: And going back to the...
• 40:39
  SPEAKER_01: To the question of receiving a no and how men and women are able to sustain it differently.
• 40:49
  SPEAKER_01: I still think, yes, I agree that it's a question of the chicken and the egg.
• 40:55
  SPEAKER_01: What is coming first?
• 40:56
  SPEAKER_01: Is it really that this difference is coming that we are trained socially differently
• 41:04
  SPEAKER_01: or we are really originally white differently?
• 41:09
  SPEAKER_01: And all the rest follows the suit.
• 41:13
  SPEAKER_01: But anyway, thank you very much for bringing up this difference.
• 41:19
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's a very interesting point.
• 41:22
  SPEAKER_00: But let me just make one more comment to this before we move on,
• 41:29
  SPEAKER_00: because it makes me think about this
• 41:37
  SPEAKER_00: isn't
• 41:39
  SPEAKER_00: I don't think the world had been like that.
• 41:44
  SPEAKER_00: I don't think the world had ever been about
• 41:51
  SPEAKER_00: just no and no and no and no.
• 41:57
  SPEAKER_00: And because I agree that women probably in the world of no,
• 42:04
  SPEAKER_00: they do have a disadvantage.
• 42:11
  SPEAKER_00: What was I trying to say?
• 42:12
  SPEAKER_00: That was like some really interesting thought.
• 42:17
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 42:18
  SPEAKER_00: So, and which turn,
• 42:23
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 42:24
  SPEAKER_00: complicates the relationship with the no in other contexts because no,
• 42:32
  SPEAKER_00: as we're exploring, can be very generative, right?
• 42:35
  SPEAKER_00: So it's like,
• 42:37
  SPEAKER_00: You know,
• 42:38
  SPEAKER_00: it's as if no is, yeah,
• 42:43
  SPEAKER_00: has this,
• 42:45
  SPEAKER_00: you know, something has gone toxic or just because we live in this context.
• 42:54
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm wondering, like, what,
• 42:59
  SPEAKER_00: for women, like, what are ways of establishing a really good relationship with no's?
• 43:07
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's a really good question.
• 43:09
  SPEAKER_02: But also it makes me think, sorry,
• 43:12
  SPEAKER_02: I just wanted to respond that when what you were describing made me think of that,
• 43:19
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 43:19
  SPEAKER_02: when we were hunter-gatherers,
• 43:22
  SPEAKER_02: a hunter would quite often expect a no as they went out to hunt
• 43:29
  SPEAKER_02: because there were way less,
• 43:31
  SPEAKER_02: let's say,
• 43:32
  SPEAKER_02: animals or successful kills Than a gatherer that knows which field,
• 43:41
  SPEAKER_02: when the things are blooming and where you can find berries.
• 43:46
  SPEAKER_02: There's more.
• 43:49
  SPEAKER_02: Chances for a gatherer,
• 43:51
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 43:51
  SPEAKER_02: that they will be coming home with something because they also can pivot to leaves
• 43:55
  SPEAKER_02: and flowers, right?
• 43:58
  SPEAKER_02: So even from that perspective,
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_02: men originally were kind of trained for the know of nature more
• 44:07
  SPEAKER_02: than potentially women were as they were gathering.
• 44:13
  SPEAKER_01: Well, it's an interesting point,
• 44:15
  SPEAKER_01: although I'm not sure that we can establish these direct relationships that all
• 44:20
  SPEAKER_01: the hunters were men and all the governors were women.
• 44:24
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
• 44:26
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, that's true.
• 44:28
  SPEAKER_02: And yet, you know, there is some data around that.
• 44:36
  SPEAKER_02: More data than, let's say, okay, the women that were also hunters.
• 44:40
  SPEAKER_02: There's less data around that.
• 44:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, there were also women hunters, but of course, predominantly men were
• 44:51
  SPEAKER_00: hunting.
• 44:53
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe because it requires more strength, physical strength.
• 44:59
  SPEAKER_02: So that already automatically points to a biological difference,
• 45:03
  SPEAKER_02: and if there's a biological difference,
• 45:05
  SPEAKER_02: quite likely there's also a neurological difference, right?
• 45:10
  SPEAKER_02: And then on top of it,
• 45:11
  SPEAKER_02: if we were evolving from hunter-gatherers and men were going out to hunt
• 45:18
  SPEAKER_02: and were already prepared for failure,
• 45:22
  SPEAKER_02: they would have to have a different relationship with a failed hunt for them
• 45:26
  SPEAKER_02: to continue to be motivated to continue to go out there and hunt.
• 45:30
  SPEAKER_02: So they would have to build a different relationship with the null from nature.
• 45:39
  SPEAKER_01: This is a very interesting point.
• 45:42
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so we'll keep it also in mind,
• 45:45
  SPEAKER_01: but I want to go back to what Yulia said,
• 45:49
  SPEAKER_01: because she actually brought two points from what I've heard.
• 45:54
  SPEAKER_01: First, she said that
• 45:59
  SPEAKER_01: we didn't live always in the world that had so many no's,
• 46:04
  SPEAKER_01: that we didn't have to sustain so many no's.
• 46:09
  SPEAKER_01: So when do you think it started?
• 46:12
  SPEAKER_01: Is it the question of the industrial revolution then that with the increase of
• 46:22
  SPEAKER_01: the speed of growth and the speed of life we are just bombarded
• 46:27
  SPEAKER_01: with much more options and much more information and hence this density
• 46:32
  SPEAKER_01: of no also increases?
• 46:38
  SPEAKER_01: Or do you think it's other things?
• 46:45
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean,
• 46:47
  SPEAKER_00: if I were
• 46:52
  SPEAKER_00: just maybe single out one thing,
• 46:56
  SPEAKER_00: we will live in the world, which is totally
• 47:05
  SPEAKER_00: Run by money and by financial system.
• 47:09
  SPEAKER_00: And of course,
• 47:10
  SPEAKER_00: where money is,
• 47:11
  SPEAKER_00: I think there has to be a lot of protection,
• 47:15
  SPEAKER_00: be it at an individual level or at corporate level or,
• 47:19
  SPEAKER_00: you know, like certain group level.
• 47:25
  SPEAKER_00: I think maybe having a financial system of one of the things is that it's supposed
• 47:32
  SPEAKER_00: to be,
• 47:32
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 47:34
  SPEAKER_00: like a fractured society where the
• 47:40
  SPEAKER_00: money or resources are always protected
• 47:44
  SPEAKER_00: by saying other people know.
• 47:47
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 47:52
  SPEAKER_01: Interesting.
• 47:56
  SPEAKER_00: We're moving away from our topic.
• 48:00
  SPEAKER_01: I would say we're opening up the new sides of the topic that I didn't even think of
• 48:10
  SPEAKER_01: when I was thinking of our conversation when I was planning it.
• 48:16
  SPEAKER_01: But that's the point of all our conversations that they flow in unexpected ways.
• 48:23
  SPEAKER_02: And this does mirror what we already talked about in one of the other episodes,
• 48:27
  SPEAKER_02: that whenever you're saying yes,
• 48:29
  SPEAKER_02: you're also saying no to something else,
• 48:31
  SPEAKER_02: especially when there's so many more yeses these days, right,
• 48:36
  SPEAKER_02: to be had,
• 48:37
  SPEAKER_02: you automatically will have, I think Yulia, you described it as FOMO, right?
• 48:41
  SPEAKER_02: Fear of missing out.
• 48:43
  SPEAKER_02: The more yeses that are available, also,
• 48:46
  SPEAKER_02: ultimately,
• 48:46
  SPEAKER_02: the more noes are necessary,
• 48:48
  SPEAKER_02: even if they're not chosen noes, but like automatic noes because of the yes.
• 48:54
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, but that's exactly the reason why I want to have this conversation,
• 48:59
  SPEAKER_01: because in theory,
• 49:01
  SPEAKER_01: the principle of yes and implies that by saying yes,
• 49:04
  SPEAKER_01: we don't say no to other things, we are saying yes and...
• 49:09
  SPEAKER_01: And yet, the nose seemed to be necessary.
• 49:13
  SPEAKER_01: But that brings me to the second point that Yulia mentions,
• 49:17
  SPEAKER_01: that it's sort of this increased density of nose,
• 49:25
  SPEAKER_01: also the nose of certain vibrations that missing out all other tones and aspects of
• 49:36
  SPEAKER_01: a nose that could have Totally different functions.
• 49:41
  SPEAKER_01: And this is exactly what I think would be interesting to explore.
• 49:48
  SPEAKER_01: What are all the different functions of a no and
• 49:55
  SPEAKER_01: How we could deal with a no maybe more generatively.
• 49:59
  SPEAKER_01: But okay, let's follow the circle.
• 50:04
  SPEAKER_01: Polina, what would be your story of an important no?
• 50:13
  SPEAKER_02: No.
• 50:21
  SPEAKER_02: I wish a specific story came to mind,
• 50:23
  SPEAKER_02: but it's more like a full lifetime of compilation of no's.
• 50:33
  SPEAKER_02: I think the specific aspect of the compiled no's that I will bring into
• 50:38
  SPEAKER_02: the space today is my relationship with the automatic no that came from You know,
• 50:46
  SPEAKER_02: my primary caregivers,
• 50:49
  SPEAKER_02: my partners,
• 50:50
  SPEAKER_02: like almost maybe it was some sort of a pattern in our lineage and in some of
• 50:57
  SPEAKER_02: the people that I chose to date that whenever there was an ask,
• 51:03
  SPEAKER_02: whenever there was excitement,
• 51:05
  SPEAKER_02: whenever there was something that came up,
• 51:08
  SPEAKER_02: the automatic response, first response is no.
• 51:14
  SPEAKER_02: And
• 51:17
  SPEAKER_02: It's something that I've really disliked and have been confused by
• 51:22
  SPEAKER_02: and have been really frustrated by and
• 51:26
  SPEAKER_02: didn't quite know how to
• 51:32
  SPEAKER_02: place it
• 51:33
  SPEAKER_02: until I became a coach and discovered the world of yes
• 51:44
  SPEAKER_02: and.
• 51:44
  SPEAKER_01: Sorry, please go on.
• 51:48
  SPEAKER_02: So that's my story.
• 51:49
  SPEAKER_02: It's the frustration of certain systems are wired to shut things down as
• 51:57
  SPEAKER_02: a first defensive response, no matter what it is.
• 52:03
  SPEAKER_02: And growing up in that kind of model was not generative.
• 52:09
  SPEAKER_02: It was very...
• 52:14
  SPEAKER_02: It felt negative and heavy and divergent, right?
• 52:17
  SPEAKER_02: And it would cause a lot of unnecessary conflict,
• 52:24
  SPEAKER_02: unnecessary loss of connection,
• 52:26
  SPEAKER_02: unnecessary loss of discussion and
• 52:33
  SPEAKER_02: co-creation, engagement.
• 52:36
  SPEAKER_02: So that's my story.
• 52:38
  SPEAKER_02: I know it's not a specific story, but that's what I got.
• 52:43
  SPEAKER_01: No, well, I think it's specific enough.
• 52:45
  SPEAKER_01: But I have a clarifying question.
• 52:51
  SPEAKER_01: So this frustration that you describe,
• 52:58
  SPEAKER_01: do you think it's frustration of this...
• 53:03
  SPEAKER_01: Similar to what Yulia described,
• 53:08
  SPEAKER_01: the nervous system that feels too bombarded by this vibration of no,
• 53:17
  SPEAKER_01: that it's not generative,
• 53:20
  SPEAKER_01: or it's frustration of closed options that you were not allowed to open up and
• 53:30
  SPEAKER_01: to explore.
• 53:33
  SPEAKER_02: Closed options,
• 53:34
  SPEAKER_02: but I would even say specifically closed opportunities for getting to understand,
• 53:42
  SPEAKER_02: to understand more,
• 53:43
  SPEAKER_02: whether it was the topic or the lack of resources or where does the person stand
• 53:48
  SPEAKER_02: on this?
• 53:48
  SPEAKER_02: Like, why is it a no?
• 53:50
  SPEAKER_02: So it was a lack of the ability to engage with the no, right?
• 53:57
  SPEAKER_02: So the no was used as a,
• 53:59
  SPEAKER_02: I'm just not going to deal with this,
• 54:00
  SPEAKER_02: rather than Well,
• 54:02
  SPEAKER_02: it's a no,
• 54:03
  SPEAKER_02: and here's why,
• 54:04
  SPEAKER_02: and
• 54:08
  SPEAKER_02: let's tend to this no in your system, or let's tend to this situation.
• 54:14
  SPEAKER_02: Meaning it was just a closed door to exploration,
• 54:20
  SPEAKER_02: to getting to know it,
• 54:22
  SPEAKER_02: to processing it, to connection to various things, I guess is how I would say it.
• 54:32
  SPEAKER_02: Meaning to
• 54:33
  SPEAKER_02: get a no without the ability to understand why it's a no,
• 54:38
  SPEAKER_02: it's also the loss of the opportunity to grow and get to know things better and
• 54:44
  SPEAKER_02: to understand people better.
• 54:46
  SPEAKER_02: And that was what I wanted more than a yes or a no.
• 54:51
  SPEAKER_02: I wanted more access to what's behind the scenes.
• 54:59
  SPEAKER_01: As you describe it,
• 55:02
  SPEAKER_01: the sensation that I get in my body and even more around my body,
• 55:11
  SPEAKER_01: this feeling of enclosement, as if I'm being locked in a cage.
• 55:18
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know if it resonates anyhow.
• 55:24
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, but not locked in a cage, locked out.
• 55:28
  SPEAKER_01: Locked out, okay.
• 55:30
  SPEAKER_02: Locked out,
• 55:31
  SPEAKER_02: like that was the recurring sense that I'm just being locked out
• 55:35
  SPEAKER_02: of like all these things that could actually be engaged with and I'm just not going
• 55:41
  SPEAKER_02: to be allowed in.
• 55:43
  SPEAKER_02: Like a lot of dead ends.
• 55:46
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 55:47
  SPEAKER_02: Like all the doors are closed.
• 55:49
  SPEAKER_02: The door of family members engaging closed.
• 55:56
  SPEAKER_02: So basically I'm wandering the world with all these closed doors surrounding me.
• 56:02
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm the one who's locked out.
• 56:06
  SPEAKER_00: I'm curious, Pauline, what does...
• 56:12
  SPEAKER_00: How did it impact your relationship with NOS?
• 56:14
  SPEAKER_00: Because what you were sharing,
• 56:16
  SPEAKER_00: it actually reminded me also of my family experience and my dad,
• 56:24
  SPEAKER_00: whose tolerance Has been so extremely low for any difficult conversations
• 56:32
  SPEAKER_00: or difficult situations or intense emotions.
• 56:35
  SPEAKER_00: And so that has been such a huge factor in my life for a long, long time and probably till now.
• 56:44
  SPEAKER_00: But for me,
• 56:48
  SPEAKER_00: I learned to be afraid of the intensity and of difficult conversations.
• 56:58
  SPEAKER_00: And I think for you it's different.
• 56:59
  SPEAKER_00: That's why I'm even asking.
• 57:02
  SPEAKER_00: I'm very curious what it did to you.
• 57:05
  SPEAKER_02: That's very on point, Yulia.
• 57:08
  SPEAKER_02: It's true, it is different.
• 57:11
  SPEAKER_02: I, well, I mean,
• 57:12
  SPEAKER_02: I did, there were two things that happened because of that recurring experience.
• 57:18
  SPEAKER_02: One of the things was that I really started doubting and questioning myself
• 57:22
  SPEAKER_02: and judging myself and blaming myself.
• 57:24
  SPEAKER_02: Like there was a lot of internal attack.
• 57:27
  SPEAKER_02: Um, in terms of like,
• 57:28
  SPEAKER_02: what's wrong with me,
• 57:29
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 57:30
  SPEAKER_02: and feeling like I just don't belong or clearly something is wrong with me because
• 57:37
  SPEAKER_02: of this response from the world, but also it at the same time amplified
• 57:46
  SPEAKER_02: That this is who I am.
• 57:47
  SPEAKER_02: Like, I'm a person that wants to engage and wants to ask deep questions and wants
• 57:52
  SPEAKER_02: to have deep relationships.
• 57:54
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm not a person that wants to have surface conversations and surface relationships.
• 57:58
  SPEAKER_02: So it created a lot of angst, of course, with my primary, you know, like the nuclear family.
• 58:08
  SPEAKER_02: A lot of angst and...
• 58:15
  SPEAKER_02: Anger and negativity and opposition.
• 58:22
  SPEAKER_02: And yet I continued to make invitations to have conversations and to get to understanding.
• 58:34
  SPEAKER_02: And it did drive me to get my master's in psychology and
• 58:38
  SPEAKER_02: to get several coaching certifications because that's how I want to operate in
• 58:43
  SPEAKER_02: the world and that's what I want to experience.
• 58:47
  SPEAKER_02: So I figured out a different way to express myself from what I think is
• 58:53
  SPEAKER_02: a natural ability and gift and desire.
• 58:56
  SPEAKER_02: It's something that makes it worthwhile to be here for me.
• 59:03
  SPEAKER_02: But it was such a core thing about who I am,
• 59:06
  SPEAKER_02: which is,
• 59:07
  SPEAKER_02: I think otherwise,
• 59:08
  SPEAKER_02: if it wasn't such a core thing,
• 59:09
  SPEAKER_02: I think I would have just stopped asking questions,
• 59:12
  SPEAKER_02: you know, stopped wanting to get deeper.
• 59:23
  SPEAKER_02: Does that answer the question?
• 59:33
  SPEAKER_01: It gives me like...
• 59:39
  SPEAKER_01: What comes to my mind that this experience,
• 59:43
  SPEAKER_01: instead of making you run away from the no,
• 59:49
  SPEAKER_01: it made you like to look for the ways around the no.
• 59:55
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 59:55
  SPEAKER_02: What are ways of helping someone...
• 1:00:01
  SPEAKER_02: How do we regulate their nervous system
• 1:00:06
  SPEAKER_02: or circumvent the automatic autopilot response?
• 1:00:10
  SPEAKER_02: How do we get to...
• 1:00:14
  SPEAKER_02: Other aspects of you that are also in there.
• 1:00:18
  SPEAKER_02: But if you're living from the know,
• 1:00:20
  SPEAKER_02: then we can't engage with the rest of what's actually in there.
• 1:00:24
  SPEAKER_02: Now, none of that actually works with my nuclear family.
• 1:00:27
  SPEAKER_02: So to this day, it's still a world of knows and closed doors.
• 1:00:36
  SPEAKER_02: And actually, it's still quite frustrating that that's the case.
• 1:00:40
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:00:42
  SPEAKER_02: And it is a big loss.
• 1:00:46
  SPEAKER_02: So I know we're talking about the experience with no specifically.
• 1:00:50
  SPEAKER_02: So
• 1:00:54
  SPEAKER_02: I just, I didn't feel like giving up for a really, really long time.
• 1:00:59
  SPEAKER_02: So all the no's I received,
• 1:01:02
  SPEAKER_02: I was like, well, I'm going to figure out a different way around this.
• 1:01:06
  SPEAKER_02: No, you're right.
• 1:01:06
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:01:07
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm not going to
• 1:01:08
  SPEAKER_00: take this.
• 1:01:09
  SPEAKER_02: No, you're right.
• 1:01:09
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:01:09
  SPEAKER_02: That's exactly what happened.
• 1:01:12
  SPEAKER_01: And this is what I find curious because I think I personally run
• 1:01:19
  SPEAKER_01: or I learn very fast of running away from the situations where I might receive a no.
• 1:01:31
  SPEAKER_01: I find it actually admirable this persistence.
• 1:01:35
  SPEAKER_01: Although, you know, I will find a way around this no.
• 1:01:39
  SPEAKER_01: It's cool.
• 1:01:43
  SPEAKER_00: And this is,
• 1:01:43
  SPEAKER_00: I guess it's, yeah,
• 1:01:45
  SPEAKER_00: this is where it's a generative aspect of a no,
• 1:01:50
  SPEAKER_00: the way Polina has been engaging with it, right?
• 1:01:53
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know,
• 1:01:54
  SPEAKER_00: it's something is blocked and that makes you be really creative
• 1:02:00
  SPEAKER_00: by finding ways around it.
• 1:02:02
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know,
• 1:02:03
  SPEAKER_00: even without,
• 1:02:07
  SPEAKER_00: you know, mentioning whether You succeeded the way that you wanted.
• 1:02:11
  SPEAKER_00: The thing is that I think in hindsight, it's created a lot, the knowing your life.
• 1:02:23
  SPEAKER_00: That's true.
• 1:02:26
  SPEAKER_02: That's true.
• 1:02:32
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, but it also sent me down some
• 1:02:37
  SPEAKER_02: Some side paths of having to dig deep and understand whether like the things I want
• 1:02:44
  SPEAKER_02: to know or what I'm asking, are they not okay?
• 1:02:47
  SPEAKER_02: You know, is it really inappropriate?
• 1:02:49
  SPEAKER_02: Like, you know,
• 1:02:51
  SPEAKER_02: my dad to his dying day on the last day of his life managed to still tell me,
• 1:02:56
  SPEAKER_02: Paulina, why do you ask such inappropriate, like not inappropriate.
• 1:03:00
  SPEAKER_02: He said, why do you ask such, what is wrong with you?
• 1:03:05
  SPEAKER_02: Why do you ask such personal questions?
• 1:03:09
  SPEAKER_02: And what he was referring to was me asking about my grandparents because I,
• 1:03:13
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 1:03:13
  SPEAKER_02: I had a sense that I didn't know if I was going to see him again in this lifetime
• 1:03:18
  SPEAKER_02: and,
• 1:03:19
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 1:03:19
  SPEAKER_02: he wasn't doing well and I was hoping to hear at least some stories maybe towards
• 1:03:25
  SPEAKER_02: the end of his life about my grandparents so I could have a little bit of a sense
• 1:03:29
  SPEAKER_02: of him, of them, you know, before he left.
• 1:03:32
  SPEAKER_02: And me asking about my grandparents,
• 1:03:35
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 1:03:36
  SPEAKER_02: elicited this response of him trying to shame me for what is wrong with me
• 1:03:41
  SPEAKER_02: that I ask all these personal questions.
• 1:03:44
  SPEAKER_02: And it was so funny that we started that way.
• 1:03:47
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I'm saying it's funny now to me because I see it from a more zoomed out perspective.
• 1:03:52
  SPEAKER_02: It was quite upsetting in the moment,
• 1:03:55
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 1:03:55
  SPEAKER_02: but it's funny that we sort of started this way with this dynamic
• 1:04:01
  SPEAKER_02: where she just wanted it all to be a no, you know, and I just wanted to get more.
• 1:04:08
  SPEAKER_02: More information, more access, and then we ended on that same note.
• 1:04:12
  SPEAKER_02: What is wrong with you?
• 1:04:13
  SPEAKER_02: Why do you ask such personal questions?
• 1:04:18
  SPEAKER_02: So it was a little bit of a coming full circle, I guess, in a way.
• 1:04:26
  SPEAKER_02: But by the time he gave me this last message, I already did so much work of
• 1:04:34
  SPEAKER_02: Not having his no
• 1:04:39
  SPEAKER_02: reverberate through my system as if that no is true to me.
• 1:04:44
  SPEAKER_02: So there was enough separation that it was just like, okay, well,
• 1:04:51
  SPEAKER_02: you wanted to be unreachable in this lifetime
• 1:04:53
  SPEAKER_02: and you are leaving this lifetime being an unreachable person.
• 1:04:59
  SPEAKER_02: Trying to shame me along the way.
• 1:05:01
  SPEAKER_02: Why am I saying this?
• 1:05:02
  SPEAKER_02: So, I mean, it was like getting an ultimate no at the end, you know?
• 1:05:08
  SPEAKER_02: But I say yes to me.
• 1:05:11
  SPEAKER_02: So that's the difference.
• 1:05:13
  SPEAKER_02: So the reason why I can engage with this no now is because I have a resounding yes
• 1:05:18
  SPEAKER_02: to me, regardless of who thinks what about me.
• 1:05:26
  SPEAKER_01: That is very beautiful.
• 1:05:30
  SPEAKER_00: I think it might go, well, for me, it goes, Paulina, I very much resonate with that.
• 1:05:37
  SPEAKER_00: And for me,
• 1:05:37
  SPEAKER_00: it goes to the last episode that we were recorded about belonging in
• 1:05:45
  SPEAKER_00: that finding something bigger,
• 1:05:49
  SPEAKER_00: the bigger context where I'm so legitimate, I so belong.
• 1:05:55
  SPEAKER_00: And that big context and the energetic that it's kind of like providing and the way
• 1:06:03
  SPEAKER_00: that it holds me, it can override the human knows, any human know probably.
• 1:06:11
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:06:13
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that is true actually.
• 1:06:14
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that episode about belonging was exactly about overcoming a know Like
• 1:06:24
  SPEAKER_01: the constant no, at least the sensation of this no from the world.
• 1:06:30
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that's true.
• 1:06:31
  SPEAKER_02: And it really isn't funny enough.
• 1:06:33
  SPEAKER_02: It's not about receiving yeses from the world.
• 1:06:36
  SPEAKER_02: It's actually just receiving a yes from yourself to yourself.
• 1:06:40
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 1:06:40
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 1:06:41
  SPEAKER_02: So it's very different than the way like we were taught what noes
• 1:06:45
  SPEAKER_02: and yeses are meant to be in our lives, you know?
• 1:06:50
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I would say for me, I do receive a yes, just not necessarily from the human world.
• 1:06:56
  SPEAKER_00: It's that the human world loses its grip and,
• 1:07:01
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 1:07:01
  SPEAKER_00: I stop totally depending on the human world and how I belong with this life.
• 1:07:12
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I love that.
• 1:07:17
  SPEAKER_01: So...
• 1:07:19
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I was coming to that.
• 1:07:21
  SPEAKER_01: So we have a know as a sort of vibration that creates really quite a negative impact
• 1:07:34
  SPEAKER_01: on the nervous system.
• 1:07:37
  SPEAKER_01: We have a know as closing doors.
• 1:07:44
  SPEAKER_01: That yet incites this journey of creative exploration
• 1:07:50
  SPEAKER_01: of how I overcome these obstacles and I still find my ways to the yeses,
• 1:08:00
  SPEAKER_01: to open these possibilities or other possibilities,
• 1:08:04
  SPEAKER_01: to open the exploration of all the possibilities that could exist for me.
• 1:08:11
  SPEAKER_01: And I did love this thought of that in order to overcome and know that you receive
• 1:08:18
  SPEAKER_01: from outside, you just need to say yes to yourself.
• 1:08:24
  SPEAKER_01: And I think,
• 1:08:27
  SPEAKER_01: I will confess,
• 1:08:30
  SPEAKER_01: I had this story prepared,
• 1:08:32
  SPEAKER_01: let's say,
• 1:08:35
  SPEAKER_01: just every time when I was thinking,
• 1:08:37
  SPEAKER_01: okay, what is the first story that comes to my mind?
• 1:08:41
  SPEAKER_01: If I think about an important no in my life,
• 1:08:46
  SPEAKER_01: this was the story that was coming to my mind,
• 1:08:49
  SPEAKER_01: although it doesn't sound really as a very
• 1:08:56
  SPEAKER_01: big story.
• 1:08:59
  SPEAKER_01: And yet somehow, apparently, it's stuck in my memory, the experience itself.
• 1:09:06
  SPEAKER_01: And it does bring a new aspect.
• 1:09:11
  SPEAKER_01: When
• 1:09:17
  SPEAKER_01: was preparing for the entrance exam to the university,
• 1:09:23
  SPEAKER_01: I was going to apply to Moscow University for the department.
• 1:09:31
  SPEAKER_01: I wanted to study applied linguistics.
• 1:09:36
  SPEAKER_01: And so they had a certain set of exams that I had to pass.
• 1:09:43
  SPEAKER_01: And for the last year of the school,
• 1:09:47
  SPEAKER_01: all that I was doing, I was preparing for those exams and I was studying like crazy.
• 1:09:56
  SPEAKER_01: Because for me, it was just unthinkable.
• 1:10:02
  SPEAKER_01: Not to pass those exams because what other people would think of me that I'm not
• 1:10:09
  SPEAKER_01: that great as everybody was thinking I am.
• 1:10:12
  SPEAKER_01: But at the same time,
• 1:10:14
  SPEAKER_01: for me also was totally unthinkable that I could pass those exams
• 1:10:19
  SPEAKER_01: because just it was the absolutely different level of the knowledge
• 1:10:26
  SPEAKER_01: that we were getting from school.
• 1:10:31
  SPEAKER_01: And so basically the subjects that I was studying was history and mathematics.
• 1:10:39
  SPEAKER_01: But then at a certain point I thought that,
• 1:10:41
  SPEAKER_01: yeah, why don't I apply to apply linguistics to the Bosco State University?
• 1:10:48
  SPEAKER_01: It's much cooler.
• 1:10:49
  SPEAKER_01: This is much greater the university than the one that I was going to.
• 1:10:54
  SPEAKER_01: The problem was that there I was supposed to take also the exam in English
• 1:11:00
  SPEAKER_01: and I was not very good in English at that time.
• 1:11:04
  SPEAKER_01: So I also started taking English classes.
• 1:11:12
  SPEAKER_01: And at a certain point
• 1:11:16
  SPEAKER_01: I was so exhausted and I realized that I just really
• 1:11:23
  SPEAKER_01: I was not making it, I just didn't have enough time to study everything.
• 1:11:31
  SPEAKER_01: And I started questioning whether I should give up something.
• 1:11:36
  SPEAKER_01: And the most obvious choice was to give up studying English and hence to give up
• 1:11:42
  SPEAKER_01: the possibility of applying to the Moscow State University to apply linguistics.
• 1:11:51
  SPEAKER_01: And for some time,
• 1:11:54
  SPEAKER_01: like for several weeks,
• 1:11:55
  SPEAKER_01: I was going,
• 1:11:58
  SPEAKER_01: like debating this decision whether I just like need to study harder and work harder
• 1:12:05
  SPEAKER_01: and to do all of it or give up.
• 1:12:11
  SPEAKER_01: And I remember the moment when I finally said to myself, okay, I...
• 1:12:24
  SPEAKER_01: I gave up studying English,
• 1:12:26
  SPEAKER_01: and hence I gave up the possibility of going to the Applied Linguistics
• 1:12:31
  SPEAKER_01: in Moscow State University.
• 1:12:35
  SPEAKER_01: And at that moment I felt,
• 1:12:37
  SPEAKER_01: when I said no to this possibility,
• 1:12:41
  SPEAKER_01: I felt such a relief,
• 1:12:46
  SPEAKER_01: that such a huge weight fell off my shoulders,
• 1:12:52
  SPEAKER_01: that Probably that's why it got imprinted in me for my whole life,
• 1:12:59
  SPEAKER_01: this sensation that sometimes
• 1:13:07
  SPEAKER_01: making a decision to say no to something
• 1:13:14
  SPEAKER_01: can be
• 1:13:15
  SPEAKER_01: a huge relief just because you're like...
• 1:13:18
  SPEAKER_01: You make a decision and you close the door and you stop thinking about it.
• 1:13:25
  SPEAKER_01: It stops being a possibility
• 1:13:30
  SPEAKER_01: and it opens up a space for you.
• 1:13:33
  SPEAKER_01: You like to focus on other things that feel more available to you at this moment.
• 1:13:47
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, totally.
• 1:13:49
  SPEAKER_00: I feel you're saying and saying no to some things that in the moment it's as
• 1:13:59
  SPEAKER_00: if you're holding on to those things or clinging to those things
• 1:14:04
  SPEAKER_00: because they seem important.
• 1:14:08
  SPEAKER_00: And then sometimes what you were describing feels to me like it's almost like Had
• 1:14:15
  SPEAKER_00: to be forced, this separation, this saying no.
• 1:14:19
  SPEAKER_00: And then when it is there,
• 1:14:22
  SPEAKER_00: the separation and the no,
• 1:14:24
  SPEAKER_00: the relief and the space that it creates, it's just so expensive.
• 1:14:31
  SPEAKER_00: And I actually, I felt this way also a few times with that startup project.
• 1:14:39
  SPEAKER_00: When I said no,
• 1:14:41
  SPEAKER_00: it was hard and it was,
• 1:14:44
  SPEAKER_00: A lot of it was driven by, oh, what are the people going to say about me?
• 1:14:52
  SPEAKER_00: Well, it was not an easy thing to do.
• 1:14:56
  SPEAKER_00: And then, wow, how freeing it felt to say no.
• 1:15:03
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, no has freedom in it, right?
• 1:15:09
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, this is exactly what I wanted to discuss.
• 1:15:12
  SPEAKER_01: Paulina, sorry, did you want to say something?
• 1:15:15
  SPEAKER_02: No, I wanted to also just reflect to you that when you were telling your story and
• 1:15:24
  SPEAKER_02: the relief you felt when you said no,
• 1:15:27
  SPEAKER_02: it also to me sounded like,
• 1:15:28
  SPEAKER_02: and I felt it in my system,
• 1:15:31
  SPEAKER_02: that arc when you went from potentially having to choose this thing and then
• 1:15:35
  SPEAKER_02: when you said no,
• 1:15:38
  SPEAKER_02: The relief,
• 1:15:38
  SPEAKER_02: I felt it with you,
• 1:15:39
  SPEAKER_02: and I'm wondering if also it was
• 1:15:44
  SPEAKER_02: you
• 1:15:46
  SPEAKER_02: already future gauging how much resources
• 1:15:50
  SPEAKER_02: and energy and you was going to be required for this thing if you actually went
• 1:15:55
  SPEAKER_02: through with it, right?
• 1:15:57
  SPEAKER_02: And potentially...
• 1:15:59
  SPEAKER_02: Like not an inflow type of experience that
• 1:16:03
  SPEAKER_02: on some level you were already feeling like it was going to take so much
• 1:16:07
  SPEAKER_02: of like actual effort.
• 1:16:12
  SPEAKER_02: So like a push.
• 1:16:14
  SPEAKER_02: And then so when you said no,
• 1:16:16
  SPEAKER_02: you were able to collect back all of that energy and all of that effort
• 1:16:21
  SPEAKER_02: that you were already having.
• 1:16:23
  SPEAKER_02: Your system was already prepping for and imagining and kind of feeling out in
• 1:16:27
  SPEAKER_02: the ethers if you were to pursue this.
• 1:16:32
  SPEAKER_02: So that's what it sounded like to me.
• 1:16:33
  SPEAKER_02: And I had like a physical experience of that as you were describing it.
• 1:16:37
  SPEAKER_02: Is that accurate at all?
• 1:16:40
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not sure that I was that advanced at that moment to be able to discern all this
• 1:16:45
  SPEAKER_01: that you described.
• 1:16:50
  SPEAKER_01: But there was definitely, for me,
• 1:16:52
  SPEAKER_01: there is certain, like,
• 1:16:54
  SPEAKER_01: the aspect of returning your energy that were allocated,
• 1:17:00
  SPEAKER_01: dedicated to that option, like, to that path.
• 1:17:05
  SPEAKER_01: And then you feel that this path is unsustainable.
• 1:17:09
  SPEAKER_01: You just, you get back these resources and it's the relief process.
• 1:17:15
  SPEAKER_01: Because you made the decision, so you don't have this weight of, like, I have to decide.
• 1:17:20
  SPEAKER_01: Whatever I decide, I decide it.
• 1:17:23
  SPEAKER_01: And then, yes, you just, you close the option.
• 1:17:27
  SPEAKER_01: It's not an option anymore.
• 1:17:29
  SPEAKER_01: So you have fewer options to deal with.
• 1:17:34
  SPEAKER_01: And it's also a relief.
• 1:17:35
  SPEAKER_01: It's always almost like,
• 1:17:38
  SPEAKER_01: I think I shared this experience with you once,
• 1:17:43
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not sure if it was in one of the episodes.
• 1:17:46
  SPEAKER_01: So like for me,
• 1:17:48
  SPEAKER_01: one of the most frustrating experiences in life was visiting a supermarket in US.
• 1:17:57
  SPEAKER_01: When you stand in front of like two kilometers of shelves full of yogurt
• 1:18:05
  SPEAKER_01: and you're thinking, for God's sake, how am I supposed to choose?
• 1:18:10
  SPEAKER_01: I'm going to spend two hours here choosing a yogurt.
• 1:18:14
  SPEAKER_01: Seriously?
• 1:18:16
  SPEAKER_01: So, like, when you are given only two choices, it's much easier.
• 1:18:22
  SPEAKER_01: Actually,
• 1:18:22
  SPEAKER_01: I think they have a scientific term for this,
• 1:18:26
  SPEAKER_01: that, like, too much choice creates too much insight or something like that.
• 1:18:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's true.
• 1:18:34
  SPEAKER_00: That's true.
• 1:18:34
  SPEAKER_01: So...
• 1:18:39
  SPEAKER_01: As it usually happens our conversation of course went not the way that I had planned
• 1:18:47
  SPEAKER_01: and expected and we obviously don't have time to discuss the main question
• 1:18:55
  SPEAKER_01: yet again.
• 1:18:58
  SPEAKER_01: But we really like some very interesting things emerged here and
• 1:19:09
  SPEAKER_01: For the closure, I want us to say yes again to things and to take off our masks.
• 1:19:23
  SPEAKER_01: And
• 1:19:29
  SPEAKER_01: after exploring all these
• 1:19:35
  SPEAKER_01: Different ways of closing options and how it feels.
• 1:19:44
  SPEAKER_01: I want us to explore, again,
• 1:19:47
  SPEAKER_01: go back to divergency and explore all other different aspects of a null in
• 1:19:56
  SPEAKER_01: the terms.
• 1:19:57
  SPEAKER_01: Let's name all or explore or whatever, all different functions of a null.
• 1:20:06
  SPEAKER_01: What functions can play in life?
• 1:20:15
  SPEAKER_01: We mentioned the closing the paths,
• 1:20:19
  SPEAKER_01: but also clearing the energy,
• 1:20:24
  SPEAKER_01: cutting off the options to clear up the energy,
• 1:20:28
  SPEAKER_01: the resources, and what you can focus on.
• 1:20:33
  SPEAKER_02: I would also frame it as taking all the no's and all the closed doors and saying,
• 1:20:39
  SPEAKER_02: I will find a yes to me, no matter what.
• 1:20:43
  SPEAKER_01: It's like a challenge, an invitation to explore, to deal with it creatively.
• 1:20:51
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:20:53
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I'd say no also has this
• 1:20:58
  SPEAKER_00: refusing claims on you.
• 1:21:05
  SPEAKER_00: Like protecting you from claims of others and maybe even of yourself.
• 1:21:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:21:19
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so like there is a protection sense in it.
• 1:21:25
  SPEAKER_00: There's just yeses take up a lot of space, physical, emotional space.
• 1:21:33
  SPEAKER_00: All kinds of space.
• 1:21:35
  SPEAKER_00: And when you say yes, the claims that have been made on that space, they're gone.
• 1:21:45
  SPEAKER_00: And so you have more space and maybe you have more of yourself.
• 1:21:53
  SPEAKER_01: That is why it is
• 1:22:02
  SPEAKER_01: Popular in psychology and psychotherapy,
• 1:22:04
  SPEAKER_01: like teaching people to say no, because many people have the struggle with it.
• 1:22:11
  SPEAKER_01: Because they're afraid of what people will think of me if I say no, they will take it badly.
• 1:22:22
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and aren't we projecting this experience, right?
• 1:22:26
  SPEAKER_00: If we have some negative experience with no's,
• 1:22:30
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's more likely now that we have discussed it,
• 1:22:33
  SPEAKER_00: that as women,
• 1:22:34
  SPEAKER_00: that potentially we do have a much more challenging experience with no's.
• 1:22:43
  SPEAKER_00: And then we kind of like project on others that a no coming from us will create
• 1:22:52
  SPEAKER_00: That experience that we didn't like in others, right?
• 1:22:58
  SPEAKER_00: And we're like, oh no to no.
• 1:23:06
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:23:10
  SPEAKER_02: That totally makes sense.
• 1:23:13
  SPEAKER_02: And even though it may not be like, Data verified this concept.
• 1:23:19
  SPEAKER_02: When I started engaging with it, it made sense to my system.
• 1:23:22
  SPEAKER_02: So it felt accurate.
• 1:23:24
  SPEAKER_02: So I didn't really care whether there was like the research data supporting it
• 1:23:27
  SPEAKER_02: or not because it actually felt accurate.
• 1:23:30
  SPEAKER_02: That a no for a long time did feel like a no to me.
• 1:23:36
  SPEAKER_02: Like any no registered as like potentially life and death.
• 1:23:42
  SPEAKER_02: Survival comes up with the word
• 1:23:44
  SPEAKER_01: no.
• 1:23:45
  SPEAKER_01: It does, because it activates your amygdala and it does create this sense of danger.
• 1:23:53
  SPEAKER_02: But not the same for men.
• 1:23:55
  SPEAKER_02: And of course, that's in a general sense, but it's not the same.
• 1:24:01
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I understand it.
• 1:24:05
  SPEAKER_01: That was a very interesting point in the conversation, I guess.
• 1:24:13
  SPEAKER_01: So anything else, any other functions of a no that come to our mind?
• 1:24:19
  SPEAKER_02: Well,
• 1:24:19
  SPEAKER_02: the release and the relief that comes with a no when you claim back all the energy
• 1:24:24
  SPEAKER_02: from the future pacing of the push, right, for you.
• 1:24:27
  SPEAKER_02: To me, that's what it felt like.
• 1:24:29
  SPEAKER_02: Just the reclaiming of that potential energy you're going to have to put out,
• 1:24:35
  SPEAKER_02: right, in order to do this thing.
• 1:24:38
  SPEAKER_02: And so it's a, ah, the relief.
• 1:24:48
  SPEAKER_02: But it's a no that you have agency and choice about.
• 1:24:51
  SPEAKER_02: So it's not a no that's being given to you.
• 1:24:53
  SPEAKER_02: Like if you got a no from the university, it might have been a different experience.
• 1:24:57
  SPEAKER_02: That was a no you were giving yourself.
• 1:25:00
  SPEAKER_02: So that also that context changes how the nervous system interacts with a no.
• 1:25:07
  SPEAKER_01: I just wanted to add that.
• 1:25:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, that is the good distinction,
• 1:25:12
  SPEAKER_01: although I also must say that not all the notes that I was given
• 1:25:20
  SPEAKER_01: in my life felt like this.
• 1:25:22
  SPEAKER_01: Many notes that I had to say,
• 1:25:25
  SPEAKER_01: they felt more like creating more anxiety rather than the sense of liberation.
• 1:25:32
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:25:33
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly because of that projection that Yulia mentioned that I am projecting on how
• 1:25:41
  SPEAKER_01: the other person would receive this snow and I'm a terrible person
• 1:25:46
  SPEAKER_01: that I'm causing this pain.
• 1:25:51
  SPEAKER_02: Also future pacing.
• 1:25:53
  SPEAKER_02: Future pacing and assuming rather than just staying with what's true for me.
• 1:26:00
  SPEAKER_02: What do I really truly want?
• 1:26:02
  SPEAKER_02: Well, that's another aspect.
• 1:26:05
  SPEAKER_02: Yulia, what did
• 1:26:06
  SPEAKER_00: you want to say?
• 1:26:06
  SPEAKER_00: I already forgot what I wanted to say,
• 1:26:09
  SPEAKER_00: but something that's coming up is just curiosity about know with ourselves.
• 1:26:20
  SPEAKER_00: Because what we mainly have been discussing is know with others, whether received or given.
• 1:26:27
  SPEAKER_00: And
• 1:26:30
  SPEAKER_00: It seems paradoxically that women also might be saying more no's to themselves.
• 1:26:45
  SPEAKER_00: Having a lot of negative experiences with no and potentially more fear than men.
• 1:26:51
  SPEAKER_00: And at the same time,
• 1:26:53
  SPEAKER_00: it's just like what is coming to mind based on my personal experience
• 1:26:58
  SPEAKER_00: and just knowing women and having Worked with women that women are so good
• 1:27:03
  SPEAKER_00: at saying no to themselves.
• 1:27:05
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, they're so good.
• 1:27:06
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe men are also good at that.
• 1:27:10
  SPEAKER_00: But I don't have that much experience with that.
• 1:27:14
  SPEAKER_00: But I wonder what the relationship is there.
• 1:27:17
  SPEAKER_00: Like how come they have kind of like an average low tolerance for no's and yet very good at
• 1:27:29
  SPEAKER_00: Tolerating no's imposed by themselves.
• 1:27:33
  SPEAKER_02: Wait, but they have a low tolerance for no's from women and in specific contexts.
• 1:27:40
  SPEAKER_02: They don't have low tolerance in general.
• 1:27:43
  SPEAKER_02: We're generalizing,
• 1:27:45
  SPEAKER_02: but in terms of no's in the workforce, I don't think they have a low tolerance.
• 1:27:51
  SPEAKER_02: I think they have a low tolerance of receiving no's from a woman
• 1:27:54
  SPEAKER_02: about something they want or need.
• 1:27:58
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, men?
• 1:27:59
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 1:27:59
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:28:00
  SPEAKER_02: Because you said they have low tolerance to no's.
• 1:28:02
  SPEAKER_02: I don't think that's true unless we're talking specifically.
• 1:28:04
  SPEAKER_02: No, no, no.
• 1:28:05
  SPEAKER_02: I said I don't know how it is for men.
• 1:28:07
  SPEAKER_02: Ah, okay.
• 1:28:10
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, but that's true.
• 1:28:11
  SPEAKER_02: But also,
• 1:28:12
  SPEAKER_02: if we're going to look back to just a little while ago when a woman's survival,
• 1:28:19
  SPEAKER_02: at least in our society,
• 1:28:21
  SPEAKER_02: meant you had to be really, well, like, marriageable material...
• 1:28:25
  SPEAKER_02: Someone had to have wanted to marry you so that you can then have access
• 1:28:30
  SPEAKER_02: to their bank account because you couldn't have your own credit card just a little
• 1:28:34
  SPEAKER_02: while ago.
• 1:28:35
  SPEAKER_02: Meaning then you would have to really seem like a very easy, appeasable...
• 1:28:43
  SPEAKER_02: You know, pliable woman that someone will want to marry and make the wife.
• 1:28:51
  SPEAKER_02: So that means you would have to say no to yourself in so many different ways.
• 1:28:55
  SPEAKER_02: So then in a way, we are maybe more accustomed to no's, but the internal ones.
• 1:29:01
  SPEAKER_02: So we have a high tolerance for the internal no,
• 1:29:05
  SPEAKER_02: but the external no could potentially mean you're literally going to die.
• 1:29:10
  SPEAKER_00: Wow.
• 1:29:11
  SPEAKER_00: Wow.
• 1:29:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:29:14
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I want to propose a game,
• 1:29:17
  SPEAKER_01: not for now,
• 1:29:18
  SPEAKER_01: but as a bridge, because we are definitely going to continue this conversation.
• 1:29:24
  SPEAKER_01: I'm going to get to the matter I want to
• 1:29:27
  SPEAKER_00: discuss eventually.
• 1:29:29
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe it's time to say no.
• 1:29:32
  SPEAKER_00: No, no, no, no.
• 1:29:34
  SPEAKER_00: I will not take no for an answer.
• 1:29:38
  SPEAKER_01: Because everything that has emerged in this conversation just convinced me even more
• 1:29:44
  SPEAKER_01: of the importance of exploring other ways of saying no, like what they could be.
• 1:29:54
  SPEAKER_01: But what I want to propose is that we continue thinking
• 1:29:58
  SPEAKER_01: about what are all other possible functions of a no in life.
• 1:30:07
  SPEAKER_01: And this is what we will start the game with when we continue this conversation
• 1:30:14
  SPEAKER_01: in one of the following episodes.
• 1:30:16
  SPEAKER_01: We will do brainstorming of all the possible functions that we know.
• 1:30:23
  SPEAKER_00: That we will need to prepare beforehand.
• 1:30:27
  SPEAKER_00: You mean that kind of brainstorm.
• 1:30:30
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's why I'm saying...
• 1:30:31
  SPEAKER_00: Here's what I have put down.
• 1:30:33
  SPEAKER_00: This is the function.
• 1:30:37
  SPEAKER_01: Keep thinking, keep thinking.
• 1:30:39
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so we need to close up.
• 1:30:49
  SPEAKER_01: What are the most interesting, important things that you're taking from this conversation?
• 1:30:53
  SPEAKER_01: Or if you want just to summarize for yourself what for you this conversation was
• 1:30:59
  SPEAKER_01: about, you're also welcome to do that.
• 1:31:04
  SPEAKER_02: For me, this conversation helped to clarify that my entire life has been spent in
• 1:31:11
  SPEAKER_02: the pursuit of finding the yes for myself.
• 1:31:17
  SPEAKER_02: And so in that respect, I consider myself a successful person.
• 1:31:23
  SPEAKER_01: Bravo!
• 1:31:24
  SPEAKER_00: Bravo!
• 1:31:28
  SPEAKER_00: That's a milestone, Pauline.
• 1:31:29
  SPEAKER_00: Congratulations.
• 1:31:32
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you.
• 1:31:35
  SPEAKER_02: No small feet with all the nose.
• 1:31:38
  SPEAKER_02: The amount of nose, the intensity of the nose, the relentlessness of the nose.
• 1:31:51
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think for me,
• 1:31:53
  SPEAKER_00: what I'm taking with me for further exploration and for just being with it is
• 1:32:02
  SPEAKER_00: the many things That are happening behind those.
• 1:32:12
  SPEAKER_00: Some history that goes back to whatever possibly, hunters and gatherers.
• 1:32:19
  SPEAKER_00: Some to my family, like my dad.
• 1:32:25
  SPEAKER_00: And there are so many stories that I don't remember.
• 1:32:34
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm
• 1:32:37
  SPEAKER_00: just making space
• 1:32:41
  SPEAKER_00: for these stories and acknowledging that they are legitimate.
• 1:32:50
  SPEAKER_00: And from that point, engaging with no, how would that be?
• 1:32:59
  SPEAKER_00: I wonder.
• 1:33:00
  SPEAKER_00: It's like for receiving no?
• 1:33:03
  SPEAKER_00: And also for giving all.
• 1:33:12
  SPEAKER_01: That is exactly what I want us
• 1:33:14
  SPEAKER_00: to go to.
• 1:33:17
  SPEAKER_01: To me, really,
• 1:33:20
  SPEAKER_01: just energetically,
• 1:33:22
  SPEAKER_01: what I felt when Yulia was telling her story about this bombardment of a know
• 1:33:29
  SPEAKER_01: in what it's really, like,
• 1:33:32
  SPEAKER_01: the effect it has on the nervous system was,
• 1:33:37
  SPEAKER_01: you know, like,
• 1:33:38
  SPEAKER_01: it really sounds strange to call it a revelation,
• 1:33:42
  SPEAKER_01: but I never really Thought of that story from this perspective
• 1:33:47
  SPEAKER_01: and it really shifted something in my nervous system.
• 1:33:53
  SPEAKER_01: So it was a very,
• 1:33:56
  SPEAKER_01: very interesting experience and in terms of that really opens up
• 1:34:03
  SPEAKER_01: like the dimensions
• 1:34:06
  SPEAKER_01: from which
• 1:34:15
  SPEAKER_01: I could explore the relationships with a no.
• 1:34:20
  SPEAKER_01: And what we have discussed about the differences of how women and men are wired
• 1:34:30
  SPEAKER_01: in terms of receiving a no.
• 1:34:34
  SPEAKER_01: Also just this idea that it could be just like we energetically are wired
• 1:34:39
  SPEAKER_01: in different ways, not just that the society teaches us.
• 1:34:45
  SPEAKER_01: But we are a different energetic being and it has a different impact on us.
• 1:34:54
  SPEAKER_01: That also was very impactful for me.
• 1:35:00
  SPEAKER_01: So in general,
• 1:35:03
  SPEAKER_01: I did feel like from time to time there were different threads
• 1:35:09
  SPEAKER_01: that were opening up like the new perspective on the topic.
• 1:35:14
  SPEAKER_01: That made it very rich and interesting for me.
• 1:35:20
  SPEAKER_01: I really enjoyed this conversation, although it didn't go at all how I had planned.
• 1:35:28
  SPEAKER_01: It never does.
• 1:35:30
  SPEAKER_02: But we did uncover lots of nuance for something that should be,
• 1:35:34
  SPEAKER_02: you know, conceptually seems so straightforward.
• 1:35:36
  SPEAKER_02: It's actually so nuanced and so...
• 1:35:41
  SPEAKER_02: Complicated and complicated by what's the context, right?
• 1:35:49
  SPEAKER_02: And which side of the no and in what context of the no.
• 1:35:54
  SPEAKER_02: It's actually very nuanced, a very rich topic and reality that we live with on a daily basis.
• 1:36:04
  SPEAKER_02: And yet we've objectified it into this very concrete, small...
• 1:36:11
  SPEAKER_02: Kind of like almost as if it's like one thing for all of us.
• 1:36:16
  SPEAKER_02: Object, subject, whatever you want to call it.
• 1:36:18
  SPEAKER_02: Object, subject.
• 1:36:20
  SPEAKER_02: So like what we're doing is we're just starting to pull it apart.
• 1:36:23
  SPEAKER_02: And that's really cool.
• 1:36:24
  SPEAKER_02: I think that's important.
• 1:36:27
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so it's really, really very interesting.
• 1:36:30
  SPEAKER_01: So I want to invite our listeners also to share with us what is your relationship with Enou?
• 1:36:39
  SPEAKER_01: What are your stories?
• 1:36:42
  SPEAKER_01: How does your nervous system take it?
• 1:36:47
  SPEAKER_01: And we will continue this conversation.
• 1:36:52
  SPEAKER_01: The more will come.
• 1:36:53
  SPEAKER_01: Meanwhile, thank you for flowing with us.
• 1:37:03
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, Yulia, please.
• 1:37:24
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks for listening.
• 1:37:25
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• 1:37:27
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• 1:37:33
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• 1:37:37
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• 1:37:40
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• 1:37:46
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• 1:37:51
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• 1:37:53
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• 1:37:54
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