Latest / WiseNoise: The Creative Practice Podcast / WN11: Kirsten Murray & Alex De Sousa
Transcript
- speaker-0: Hello and welcome to the Wise Noise Podcast. This is a podcast about the creative practice brought to you by me, Pearce O'Halloran, founder of Wise Love Studio, a graphic design studio based in the heart of Aberdeenshire, Scotland. I am currently hunched over the laptop. I've had to work from home today and I really want to get this podcast out before I go into Aberdeen tonight. There's a Fred Deakin talk and a DJ set put together by those fabulous people at Kin. Shout out Nicola, the Orcheo and Julie and all the Kin volunteers there for making that happen. It's been amazing. I have had a crazy busy week. I've I wanted to get this podcast out for Friday, but then I had a crazy Tuesday where I won't tell you how long I worked for, but it was an unhealthy amount. to get a couple of projects over the line in time this week. So I've been scrambling for the rest of the week to get other things done and catch up with myself. so yeah. Recording this in a very shoddy way through my MacBook microphone. Excuse the poor quality. but the put the quality of the actual podcast you're about to hear is will make up for it because it's absolutely excellent. Kirsten Murray is somebody I wanted to have on the podcast since I first started drawing up a list of guests. She's a creative direct director and brand strategist. winner of many awards, and if you go and see her work, you can see why I would use the word masterful. I think she is quite masterful at not alone coming up with such amazing strong ideas, but carrying those through across all touch points. Yeah, she's fabulous, and I'm delighted to get her on. And normally for the work section, I just I'll pull up the portfolio. And I'll get of their on their the case study on their website, let's say, and we'll just kind of scroll and I'll screen record that. And I suggested the Kirsten like Edible was a recent project of hers. It won an award at the INTL, inaugural INTL Awards. And I thought, well, let's talk about that 'cause that one's fresh and that's that's an award winning project to start off with. And she came back and said, Well, Alex D'Souza, who was the well he's a design background himself in UI and UX. why doesn't he come along? Because he was basically the client. So this is an amazing setup where Kirsten, the brand strategic creative director, idea thinker upper, is talking about the work and Alex gives the first he he talks first in terms of giving the full background and brief about why he set up Edible App. So you get the full context of the the why of the project, the how of the project, and then the I'm trying to think of another question. the answer of the project, let's say. but yeah, it's excellent. I'm going to just get straight into it and we have lots of good chats in and around that. I do kind of waffle on about human civilization at one point, which I kind of regret, but I'm leaving it in there. I'm gonna own my cringe on this one. telescopic evolution is something I was kind of going on about that I learned in hindsight. I'll talk about that at the outro if you want to stick around. Also, is anybody gonna buy a cup or a t shirt off me? I really thought this was a good way to monetize the podcast for all you freeloading the freeloading lobes that have tuned in. WiseLove.shop. If any of you get a notion to get a cup the T-shirts are pretty sweet. I need to do like a photo shoot of them. but they deliver internationally. yeah, order that up if you enjoy the show, wise of that shop, you get a cool bit of merch and you support the show as well. otherwise, I'm gonna have to give all these Christmas presents when I go back home. and I don't want to do that, I don't want to follow my family. So, yeah, here's the podcast. Thanks for tuning in. Should have known better. Yeah, yeah. How are you? Yeah, I'm very good, thank you. I'm very good. I've had to like close it's a beautiful day and I'm inside closing the blinds and making sure it's nice and dark enough to podcast, which seems like a bit of a shame. But yeah, Aberdeenshire is bit Yeah, yeah. Aberdeenshire's looking for a bonnie today. are you in Paris then, Kirsten? Yeah? Yeah, I'm in Paris. and Alex is in Portugal. Portugal, okay. Yeah, I think you're gonna win on the sunshine stakes then, Alex, yeah. speaker-1: No, it was torrential rain yesterday, so yes. speaker-0: Summer is over. Summer is over, definitely. Yeah, yeah. But and did you do a little excursion through to London for your secret seven inch, Kirsten? Yeah, it was it was great actually. So they had the opening night and all 700 designs of the record sleeves on display. and I knew a few people who were displaying, but I didn't actually know what designs they had in, so I was trying to guess. the really famous artists who've been invited to do Secret Seven. Some of them have like really signature styles, like Anthony Burrell, for example. You could tell which sleeve designs were his. Yeah, it was it was really great. And it's the first time I've ever taken part in the project. I've been meaning to do it for a number of years and I finally set myself the deadline, did it. I'd like to say that the process of creating the vinyl sleeve was as satisfying as seeing it finished, but that would be a lie. It was torturous. but I'm I'm glad I did it. I decided to do it completely off the computer, something very handmade. I really wanted to get off the screen, really, and get back to making something. So more of that, I think. Yeah, no, absolutely. I I I was just meeting a designer pal today and I was just talking about how this desk behind me is my sort of sketchy, creative, messy disc. And I'm like, More and more I want to like start things over there and not start things over here at the kind of digital side of things. But yeah, I don't know. I and that's that's part of the fun, isn't it? With Secret Seven Inches, just like not knowing who the artist is and yeah, just taking it on face value. Yeah. So d the d does it is the c can you actually reveal your artwork then once the exhibition closes? Is that the deal? You can reveal the artwork once the winning bidder has received the design, because it's revealed to them first. Yeah, okay. So I think it's something that's September. Yeah. Very hard not to share it. Yeah, you're like, I'm so excited to share it. And it's just keeping it under wraps must be a tough one. And yeah, yourself, Alex, I ha I haven't actually met you before, but you do have a design background yourself. So you studied speaker-1: Do speaker-0: at Edward College, yeah. speaker-1: Yeah, same course that Kirsten did, but a number of years later. Yeah. And yeah, I've found my way into digital and no. Sorry, I think. speaker-0: Yeah, so Kirsten was a a mentor of yours then and that's how you guys know each other. speaker-1: That's correct. Yep. Yeah, I guess some some years later we start working together. So speaker-0: Yeah. Yeah. I know more of that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Amazing. Yeah. Yeah, we'll get we're gonna get on to the edible stuff 'cause I'm excited to talk about the edible stuff. But I wanted to chat to you, Kirsten, about like because the last time we met each other was at Curio and I really loved your talk about having ADHD. I think the one I think again, I I'm I'm a classic, slightly undiagnosed ADHD is in I I definitely r sympathize with a lot of the traits that you have. But one of the things I could relate to or one of the things where, you know, i it it struck me in your talk that it is a disability is getting the job of working with your favorite band and then just basically like coming up with a blank and it's almost like this having so many good ideas and it's such a perfect job that your brain almost kind of short circuits because it's almost overloaded with good ideas and then you actually just fail with the whole thing. So yeah. Yeah, I could relate with that. It's almost like one of those stories that you want to share because I think everybody's even if you don't have ADHD, everyone's been there at some point where the pressure of doing a really great job for something that you care about means you just don't live up to your own expectations. But with ADHD there really is that block of you have the ideas, you have the desire to create. and yeah, for me, this my my favorite band, Trespassers William, they invite me to create a cover for an album. In fact, it was the the lead singer of the band, Annelyn Williams. so she had said, you know, if you're interested, I'd I'd love you to create something for me. And I yeah, went straight to it, lots of great ideas, was really excited. And I just sat on it and wasn't able to progress it into a design to share. now the thing is, it wasn't a paid project, it didn't have a deadline, which is maybe part of the problem. there's something that really keeps us in line, which is having regular check-ins, deadlines, other people that you don't want to let down. And that pressure is actually really great at keeping things ticking along. it also probably explains why doing your own branding or any kind of self promotion can be quite difficult if you are the client. because you know you're a bit lax when you're your own, you know, client. yeah, that was a lesson learned and I haven't done it since. but yeah it was it was really great to get feedback from that talk as well. I think a lot of people could really resonate with what was shared. Yeah, no absolutely yeah because it's a you know ADHD's a or or a is a superpower in some ways in terms of like y you class yourself as an idea thinker upper and I think it is brilliant in that respect, but having the organizational skills and kind of as you said, choosing the right kind of ideas and having that kind of it can you can fall down in that respect. It's almost like it's can be overloading sometimes having too many ideas, you know? Absolutely. I also think for many years, you know, I especially when I was actually going through the process of diagnosis, I was somewhat convinced I didn't have ADHD. and I think it it now dawns on me that I didn't feel that different because I'd surrounded myself with creative people, many of whom are also neurodivergent. So the things that I, you know, thought were quite normal to do because other people did them, it turns out that, you know, the average rate doesn't work like that. so that was also quite interesting is if everybody around you is the same, you don't really feel like you're any different. Yeah, like you're any different. Yeah, yeah. But it's I'm also finding what I find as well is just trying to fit into the normal sort of nine to five schedule. Like I I'm starting to realize that I have to sort of work with my own brain's rhythms rather than trying to fit into a sort of a neurotypical world that You know, instead of actually feeling bad because I can't get all this stuff done within a certain time, it's actually just giving myself my longer breaks during the day for like, you know, my busy brain to kind of like chill my my brain needs a little bit more downtime than more neurotypical people I found is one one of the things I'm kinda discovering that's made my practice a bit easier. Mm-hmm. Absolutely. And give yourself a break and Yeah, do you do you have like practical things during the day then in terms of like, you know, handling or or making things a little bit better for yourself in your working day? Yeah, I think not trying to achieve too many things on one day actually and really have like one, just even if it's one thing that you want to get done. because as we know, if we have a to-do list and there's ten things on it, you sort of do a tiny little bit of each one. So nothing is ever completed. so that's one another very handy trick for anyone who has ADHD who never drinks enough water. this is my watering. feel like a plant. so I mean if only I could be connected to a a a drip, that would be easier. But I need to see it visually how much water I have drunk so far during the day. and having a measuring jug it's useless when you're cooking dinner and you've still not finished it and you well can't like start it again. But yeah I I use this a lot to help me. also I think if you're if you're a one person studio Yeah. It's really helpful to work on projects with other people or if you aren't bringing in other team members that you're working closely with, a partner like Alex, for example, where your day to day involve a lot of communication and check ins. I think that really helps. yeah. Certainly for me, I'm not sure necessarily benefit everybody, but I find that to be helpful. Yeah. Yeah, no, that's that that I I'm actually probably gonna take up that tip of having a massive two litre jug. 'Cause it it's it is so true because it's like if I don't actually have like a massive bottle or something with me then I will I'll get up and go like, I need a glass of water and then I'll get distracted by something and then I'll like blah blah blah and then an hour later I'm like I never got that glass of water, did I? And then you kinda go up to get the glass of water again. And then you'll be distracted by something else or you're like, I have to quickly send send that email and then another hour later you're like, Right, I haven't drank water all morning. You know, the way the way the kind of the mind could things. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. But if you have just this massive bucket of water on the desk and it's just like as soon as you have that thought of like I need water and you just take a drink, then boom, that's done. So yeah, an inside an insight into the crazy processes of the mind. but yeah, I I I so I'm keen to talk about Edible because this Edible is your baby, Alex, in terms of food allergies and making a better awareness of food allergies and overcoming the problems that people have when they go into restaurants and b both both the businesses and the customer side of things. Can you tell me how Edible came about? or or Kurt I sorry, actually actually Kirsten do you w if there's a there's a screen share thing, I don't know if this is actually gonna 'cause I think you said you had some things for Alex to show while it while he talked about it. speaker-1: It's been something I've dealt with my entire life. This is me, I think, age four. speaker-0: All right, okay. speaker-1: Chuffed chuffed with some birthday cake that I could eat for once. So yeah, it's it's been a thing my entire life. I think started with about fourteen food allergies. I think right now it's it's only grown. I think I sit at about twenty eight right now. and yeah, for the most part, when you're young, your parents kinda take care of it for you. You know, they're the ones phoning, they're the ones asking the questions at the table. And then you kinda get to this point when you're in your teens and and kind of start to get that responsibility shifted onto you. And it starts to dawn on you just how difficult it actually is. not just in terms of being able to answer qu ask questions, but to be able to interpret the kind of response that you get and to determine how trustworthy that is. And It's difficult right now because in the UK the minimum requirement for businesses is purely just verbal disclosure of allergen information. And when you deal with so many food allergies, can you imagine trying to work through that process at the table of asking a set of questions, having the person go away, find answers to the questions, come back. And it's never just one time, it's then always, okay, well, I've got follow-up questions to that. dig deeper and dig deeper and dig deeper. And really, I worked in a restaurant I think from about sixteen to twenty. And then I started to see the problem from both sides there. You know, the the business had the information. The chefs who I became friends with were happy to cater that kind of stuff. But getting the information out of the restaurant is difficult. And how are you supposed to know before you leave the house? And so really my lifelong experience is what has shaped Edible. at school. So Edible was a project that started at school for me. And it was the final final project that I worked on as a part of the course. And yeah, I just felt like there was something that could be done about the information, right? Because the information, the business has it. They're happy to give it to you when you're sitting at the table, but how can you make it easier for people to take that information and to put it somewhere where it's actually useful and to put it online? And to make it accessible. There are times where I've turned up at places and for the best, have had that conversation at the table, and then I've kind of realised, well, there's nothing really for me to eat here. That time you've already got a drink in front of you. You are already sat down. You're not just eating dining by yourself. There's other people to be considered too. And it's difficult to do that. And I started to realize when I kind of started out on this, this was one of the first things that I did to try to connect with the community and just to see other people's perspectives on how it was. So this was a sticker that I put out. Is eating out with dietary needs a pain in the peanuts or pain in the pain in the peach? And the response to this was kind speaker-0: Thank you. speaker-1: of baffling, honestly. I think If you're ever starting something and you don't have much of a budget to do advertising, the best way to to go out there is just to slap stickers on lampposts. I think this sticker has received close to five hundred responses. And this is just from me and a few friends putting them up in Edinburgh and Glasgow at the time. A couple hundred stickers has received close to five hundred responses. And everyone is expressing the same sentiment. You know, it's it's it's really difficult. Where there is allergen information, the allergen information is incredibly complicated. There's a whole there's a whole bunch of sentiment on the types of reactions that people get from the staff, which can be very alarmist and and not helpful. people making the decision for people without necessarily giving them all of the information. And I like to equate this kind of sitting at the table problem to a game of whispers, which we all probably played in primary school, which is that when you start and you pass the message on to someone else and it goes around the circle, the information that comes back to you at the end is almost certainly different than the information that was sent out initially. And that interaction at the table is very much like that. Because what you say can be interpreted by person who's going to access that information completely different to how you're meaning it and how they understand it is completely different. So it's a it's a it's a really terrible way of being able to access really complex information. So yeah, I basically started this in school. And then I thought about doing it right out of school, but then I thought, you know what? definitely do not have the skills that are necessary to do this right now. So I parked it for a couple of years. I moved to Toronto for five years, worked in a really small agency, kind of specialized without really knowing it in digital design. And then I think it was almost somewhat of a subconscious guiding me into that field of work. Really working for a really small studio and learning how to work with digital, building e-commerce and apps and websites and all this type of stuff. Because I learned how to then do that. And then I came away from that after leaving that agency and thought, you know what, I'm gonna give this a crack. I'm gonna try try and do this. So We're tackling it from both sides. I think from the business side, being able to provide a tool for the smallest of businesses to be able to input allergen information and not have to think about how to present it. And we're also tackling it from the customer side, which is empowering them to access that information at home before they leave the house. To have it presented to them in a way that makes sense. There's a lot of challenges with the way that allergen information is presented. Even if a business decides to put that information somewhere, the form that it comes in can often be really difficult. I think there was a quote from someone earlier that said, you know. That spreadsheets can be really complicated and it is true. Whether that's like numbering systems, lettering systems, icons. The problem right now is that the business is deciding how best to present that information. And for the customer side of things, I think what I'm really aiming to do is to be able to put the power into the customers' hands to say, no, this is how I want to present that information. With folks listening, there's a visual on screen right now, but it's basically We've built very recently the ability to snap photos of any allergen information that you get, whatever form it comes in, and to turn it into a personalized menu for yourself within a matter of minutes. And to have it pre filtered against your profiles. if you've ever looked at one of these things like a numbering system, it's like going back and forth. If it's a separate sheet, it's like cross referencing two things at the table. It's like just unnecessarily complicated. And ultimately I think The ultimate product that we are building for people, and there's a lot of challenges to get there, but it's a search and discovery platform. It's being able to open a map that's not Google and being able to see what's around me. by empowering the customers to be able to take pictures of whatever allergen information there exists today that's probably behind the bar. we can plot all of that stuff on a map, and we can plot that alongside businesses that are verified and are using Edible. and start working towards this experience, its ideal state. 'Cause it can be a lot better. You know, there's a lot of room. Ultimately at the end of the day I'm solving a problem for myself and that is just the there's just a deep pit of motivation every day. Yeah, I think in and the fewest amount of words possible, that's what edible is. speaker-0: That's amazing, Alex. It's amazing to hear your story and like yeah, it's fascinating how you're trying to sort out this big complicated web but simplify it down because I I I can imagine I can sympathize in terms of when you go in and it's like it's I I've had to set menus myself and sometimes it gets really kinda complicated trying to list out all the allergens, but I can imagine if you have twenty eight different allergies going out must Be such a kind of fill you full of anxiety and dread anytime you go to a place, you know. so you're trying to make that better for people. And Kirsten, you you got involved then in terms of the brand and the look of edible then on top of that? So back when Alex was studying design, I was his mentor at college, and I remember him presenting this project and new straight away that this is a brilliant idea and he had to make it. and I think pretty much at the time, Alex, you were probably surrounded by some people who were saying that to you. And there was probably this sense of urgency to get it made, get it done. But as Alex said, he went away, he learned the craft of UIUX design and then built this brilliant product. And then he contacted me years later to say Would you be interested in working with me to create the brand strategy, the identity for it? And it's funny because even though the dynamic used to be kind of mentor mentee, I felt this enormous pressure to do the best work of my life on this. you know, to kind of live up to the status of mentor. but I have to say, the whole process was incredibly smooth and really. enjoyable to work on. And I think part of that is, you know, Alex came to me with this very, you know, determined vision about what Edible needed to be, who it's for, why it exists, and how it benefits them. So from a strategy perspective, my job is to take that and essentially communicate it in the clearest, most interesting way I possibly can. And we You know, lots of brands have a brand manifesto. That word is kind of batched around a lot, and it essentially is the purpose and the values, the reason for being for a brand. but I think Edible is probably the first brand to have a manifesto. and something that I think is really important, a big fan of, is injecting brand language into every vein of communication for a brand. so where possible, you are. Owning that. So if everybody has a brand manifesto, what can you have that makes it yours? so after we did the workshop, one of the first things that we need to determine was like how are we going to articulate this mission that Alex is on with Edible? And that was to make the world more edible. And but the great thing about this mission is it didn't necessarily just have to live in a deck and only be for internal use. Because it kind of acted like a call to action for food service businesses and their So, like here, you can actually use the term make you know Doris' Diner more edible, and but also make your world more edible, which was a call to action for the food-sensitive and allergy community to be able to advocate for themselves as well and use edible as a tool and call for restaurants to use edible to build their menus. And another really major part of building the brand strategy was in the values. And a lot of companies I see who've got, you know, brand decks and communicate their values, they tend to stick to these singular words, you know, like trust. We build believe in community, transparency. But for me, I personally find that there's not an awful lot to go on. And those terms are very open to interpretation. So I think when you're thinking about your values, it's really important to really like dig further. Down into what that actually means and how you action them. So, in the case of Edible, it was to be a source of clarity because essentially they're acting as a guide for food service businesses to be able to communicate allergen risks, to raise the standard of allergen labeling across the world, and also to make room at our table, which was just a way to articulate that they are building this welcoming and supportive community for people with food allergies. But in a way that say another brand couldn't use the same expression because this is very much using their brand language. And we had these two distinct audiences, because you've got the business side, the B2B, and then you've got their customers, so the food sensitive customers. And it was really important that we had a very distinctive value proposition for each. So for the businesses, that's to serve peace of mind. So essentially, One of the things you do not want as a restaurant is to put your customers at risk. And Edible really helps to take away that problem of staff not knowing the ingredients when they're asked at the table, having different sources of information that are conflicting or outdated. And then the value proposition for customers was simply eat out with confidence. And because if there's one thing that we know, and and as someone with food sensitivities, You tend not to want to try new restaurants or try new things for the fear that you may accidentally eat something that you can't. And so that kind of led to with all this kind of brand strategy work done that built the foundations for the actual identity. one of the things that kept coming back to was these allergens themselves, these 14 major allergens, and how to relate to the audience in a way that. Educates people who don't already know about the allergens, but then how do we speak to people who are very familiar with them? and at first there was this idea that okay, what if we come up with these like food bandits? So these are the allergens have been cast away from many a diet, but they can still wreak havoc when people accidentally eat them. And almost kind of like menacing characters. So also this then kind of led to the thought of and What would be some comedic ways that you could banish these food bandits? So is it edamame on one of these spinning wheels with daggers being thrown at it? Is it a pint of milk that has arrows stuck in it and it's bleeding milk? just kind of humorous ways to reflect the fact that people in this community need a way to get rid of these things from their diet. But the thing about that was that was our, you know, villain of the brand story. Who is the hero and how do we represent this hero? And that's where I moved into this idea of could we have a brand mascot that represents the advocacy and the guidance on food allergens? And so there was this character idea called Nom, who is this mouthy brand mascot who kind of can do both. and the great thing about brand mascots is they can really add a lot of character and personality to a brand. So as part of the the work, there was like a deep dive into just brand mascots in general. And one thing I was keen to look at is the mascots that don't have, say, eyes or a nose. for example, there's like this lovely mascot that's like this musical instrument and it's just arms and legs. or Obby's Don't Show the Face, and how can you still express emotion for a character that doesn't have all of the facial features? And at the time I ended up getting a book called Mascot, created by Counterprint. and it's really lovely, it's got a lot of contemporary examples of brand mascots, and a very easy read, but something that kind of helped me to dive into that world. And I'd worked on projects with brown mascots before, but I think this was the first one where I was really kind of doing everything from scratch, building that visual identity and verbal identity together. So you start thinking, okay, if if Nom just has a mouth and arms and legs, can Nom hold a menu? And if you obscure Nom's mouth, do you still know it's a mouth? what kind of props can we use so that Nom can communicate, communicate different aspects? of the brand? Like is it, you know, loudspeaker for the advocacy? are they brandishing like a giant spoon or a fork when they're leading the way almost like they're holding a flag? Something that I'm a big fan of is developing things in sort of in an iterative process where you're using these very kind of early sketches and the placement of content to figure out what you're actually creating. And it's really useful to do something like this, especially if you're gonna engage with an illustrator or photographer and commission them to do a part of the work. So when briefing an illustrator to develop NOM. They're actually going to be able to see, okay, what's the context that this character lives in? Where will they be placed? What kind of space do I have to illustrate them? Will they be animated? so really early on, before there's even a logo or a color palette, you know, Alex and I are figuring out what is the content, what do we actually want to say to these two audiences, and what role does the brand mascot play in this? And then once we'd figured that out, we got in touch with Ant Gardner, a really talented illustrator, and worked with him to take Nom from that sketch stage right to a finished brand mascot. and I think it's really interesting seeing like clearly Ant took him to the dentist because his teeth are a lot better than my sketches. the sketches are pretty ropey, but I think that's the whole point is you know, when you are a designer, you don't have to be a brilliant illustrator. Your sketches only have to be good enough to communicate your ideas. and I can see Alex kind of smirking already at the kind of transition from Nom in the early days through to how NON looks now. but you know, having those sketches and just having that as a placeholder can really help you to figure out all of the important stuff before you then go and invest in developing that further. So with Ant, we came up with Different characterizations of noms. We have NOM the guide, foodie nom, and then activist NON. And then so what happened to our food bandits as well? I think that's a an important question because it was such a an a brilliant idea that we really loved. But in terms of the application and what would be useful for Alex, these then became these kind of like sticker lockups that could be used on a website, on social media, in different placements. Carrying these messages about these food allergens like peased peanut, so long sesame, tata tofu. And so we've still got the characterization of the allergens. And there's something about taking a very serious subject like food allergens, literally life and death. But how do you speak to people about that in a way that doesn't put them off? Because often Taking a serious subject, but adding a lighthearted way of talking about it is a really good way of ensuring you don't like lose people and alienate people when you're talking about it. So that restaurants don't become too fearful or don't feel like they're being lectured to. And equally, your food sensitive community, they've been there, they can kind of get the humour of, you know, politely telling these where these food allergens can go. And then also with these kind of graphics, they could make for like really interesting merch, say as well, patches, and or break out of that sticker format to put them on t-shirts and sweatshirts and things like that. The other thing that we did was we also introduced some of those quotes from the research that Alex did before he started building Edible, so that some of the messaging that we put out there was. In that first person perspective from people who've actually experienced trying to eat out with a food allergy or sensitivity. Something really interesting about this project is that the logo was one of the last things to be created in the visual identity. And I think when people are creating a visual identity, they will often think about the logo first, which is understandable because. Kind of acts like a tattoo. It's the first thing that people might see or notice about a brand. But actually creating a logo after you've developed this brand world, including the voice and the visual identity, I think it's a really smart way to do it because you then almost have this entire visual world that you're summarizing into one mark. And so again, we worked with Ant Gardner to come up with something that really visually looked very edible. So that it fit with that mission of making the world more edible. And a big part of this project was also the verbal identity. And when I'm working on any project that involves both copywriting and design, I tend to work on them side by side so that they're being crafted at the same time. And they almost one informs the other while I'm working on them. And we talked about developing this voice that had like big spoon energy. something that was very bold, that could have this kind of sense of advocacy in the voice, quite punchy and maybe a little bit spicy as well. And speaker-1: Yeah. speaker-0: when building out what this voice would sound like, there were these four personas that we describe in the brand guidelines. And one is being like a gutsy activist. So that voice is really used when you're talking about changing food labeling for the better. So it's kind of acts like a rally and cry to get behind the food allergen fight. And then you've got the practical guide voice, which is used really when you're helping food service businesses, for example, to guide them through how to use the product. That would be far more accessible, informative, and to the point. And then you've got the good humored foodie. So that voice really sits in the world of, say, social media. And that's where you're trying to build that like warmth and relatableness with the brand by using a bit of humor, but that also encourages this like honest conversation about food sensitivities. So you use the humor as a way to break down a bit of a barrier where people feel there's a stigma around it. And then finally, we've got empathetic supporters and this is you know leading back to that seat-at-the-table value of building a community. So We really need people to feel heard, understood, supported, and included. So that kind of voice is slightly different to the others. And they all have a place within the brand and when where they're used. So for example, the advocacy voice, that kind of idea of having being an activist, a line like join the food allergen fight sits well with that. And then when we talk about having that humorous foodie voice. We've got these lines like gluten got you tootin. Just something quite catchy and relatable, but that creates a bit of lightness to the voice as well. And something that I'm a big fan of is once you've developed that tone of voice, rather than it only existing in external communication, I think it's really important that it runs through everything that Edible communicates. And that includes the brand guidelines. So for example, It would be easy to say that edibles primary typeface is called Doi, and this is the use. But I think you can go a step further and really lean into that brand voice by saying, you know, Doi as a cinnamon bun. And so you're kind of building up this more edible world through not just the visual language, but also the verbal language too. And so that kind of culminated in all of these individual elements that when they come together from not only a very distinctive voice, but something very distinctive visually. And I think the the proof as to whether this works is, you know, you hand this over to Alex and can he then continue to talk in Edibles voice? Can he use these elements of the brand to communicate the message, to get it out there to as many people as possible? And I think Alex will be able to answer that question. But to me, that's a sign of success, is if the founder of a business that you're working with has this elevated confidence to go out there and talk about what they do because they now have a visual and a verbal identity that feels like them and like the best version of them. Wow, that's amazing. I've I've I've so many notes. overall it's just fascinating to see you talk through the process and how you align copy and strategy and everything kind of all sits together. I think one of the things that struck me and it from the very start of why you thought it was so smooth, I think largely because you believed in this product from the off, which is always important, and also having Alex as a client who Alex understands good design and so it was probably much easier to He was already on board with your kind of way of looking at design. So I'm sure that made the process quite smooth. Alex, so yeah, as Kirsten was saying then in terms of bringing this out into the real world and launching the business, how has it been for you and you know, have people responded to the branding then? speaker-1: Yeah, I think definitely. I think some of the visuals that have been created throughout this are just I mean, there's one of NON with a menu which have been running ads recently to just try to, you know, get clicks through from businesses onto the landing page. And that visual alone, just of someone looking at a menu and being confused, you know, paired with a such a simple headline and such an effective way of getting people curious as to what that is. getting people to think about, well, how am I presenting my menu information right now? the response has been great from the other side too. I think stickers especially have really resonated with a lot of people. speaker-0: Yeah, it looks as though you've got a brilliant suite of stuff, so is that th that sort of community element. you know, those badges are really great to have that community. And I don't know if you've even looked at sort of merchandise or getting s those stickers physically printed up, but yeah, I think they're they're ready made to be badges of honor within the community, you know. speaker-1: Yeah, definitely. And and also Kirsten was saying about the success of this is setting me up with something that I could run with it. And I think that that is definitely has been true. I mean the website, the mock up that was just shown that the website has developed so much farther beyond the initial. I think we on only really worked on two pages plus the home page. those pages have evolved so much. and then there's a whole bunch of other stuff that's spawned out of this and It's really enabled me with the the toolkit to be able to continue running with brands, to be able to continue running with the voice. yeah. speaker-0: And must make building the rest of the pages easier because the style is already decided. So just a bit of text and some a drop in a couple of the stickers and boom, it all r it it starts to look pretty amazing straight away, you know. I think that's the value of doing all this work at the ground level is that it just makes things easier and better as a business as you try and grow, you know. speaker-1: Sure. Even even, you know, guidelines on how to use photography, how to use colour, you know, the this the simpleness of the the kind of cream and chocolate is the two kind of staples of the the backgrounds of that brand. You know, it just makes it so easy to just spin stuff out from. and I think, you know, Kristen and I were laughing and talking in preparation for this about some of the previous iterations that we've kind of you know, I put out in very early. in in this journey. but at this point now it's just it's just so easy and to have to not think about that, you know, I think if I hadn't involved Kirsten and I was just trying to do this for myself, first of all I'm way too close to it. and I don't think I think my focus needs to be elsewhere. And yeah I think I just would have been spinning in circles to be honest. And the probab the identity probably would have changed every year. Probably still be changing it. speaker-0: Yeah, yeah. I I th I think Kirsten, you mentioned that like even in our previous chat about designing for yourself and how like long that can take in having somebody else externally to be accountable. So you're definitely feeling the value of that, Alex, yeah. Yeah. speaker-1: No person. speaker-0: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. and never be happy with it if you did it yourself. and yeah, I I I suppose the iterations then I wanted to ask about Nom. was that like your very first idea for the mascot or did you have other kind of things thinking about other things for the mascot? It's a great question, Pierce, because I'm definitely one of those creatives that goes in with one very strong idea. I do not usually present, you know, three options worked out to great detail. And I think that's because if you've done the research, if you've got a strong strategy, then you know, presenting one idea. Now it might not be an idea that the client buys into and that's okay. And then you go and develop something else based on the feedback. But I think it's actually more beneficial when you're working with people to give them This strong idea well thought out, than providing options. Because in a way they're paying you to take the burden of that decision making away from them. So yeah, for the mascot, really, it was it was non. And I would say it was more kind of a presentation of an iteration of the idea as it developed. So for example, the food bandits became the sticker lockup. Whereas you can imagine the food bandits perhaps would have been better placed in a campaign later on for Edible. so yeah, it really was kind of like those initial sketches. There were a few other things that Nom was doing, you know, just to test like, could Nom look happy? can he skateboard? Like there was all these other kind of versions of Nam, but even when Ant then developed that into the finished illustration. there really were not a lot of rounds of development. It was very small refinements. and I think that often you put a lot of thinking and work into the process at the start, then that's when you save time on all of those, you know, version one, version two, version three, as you struggle to figure out what the right direction is, because you've almost made those decisions really early on. And that can help massively if you're outsourcing a part of it too. Because the costs can kind of creep up if you've only got, say, two rounds of creative work from an illustrator. So yeah, I would say on the whole, probably the colour palette had a bit of a so we went around about. I think I was strong on pink, Alex was not. That's okay. But I think the color palette that we landed with is actually. probably more stripped back and works better. And that's because with the stickers, they have so many colours running through them that we needed a brand palette that can work with all of them. And I think sometimes if you have an abundance of color, sometimes it can be very hard for a team to know what color am I supposed to use now and with what. And having something quite paired back, where you've got kind of two neutrals, a dark and a light and one vibrant brown color is it works basically. It w works really well. Yeah, no, it and it it shows Ant's value as an illustrator because you could see I loved how you could see this kind of hand drawn sketches where you might sort of struggle to see how this is becomes like a viable character. But then once you see Ants what he what he does with that, it's just like instantly you're like boom, straight away there's an a there's an actual character I can I can get on board with, you know, and I do think it was probably like a an easy brief for him because you've that you've you've kind of considered all these kind of flexibility and the rebu robustness of the character, you know. but yeah, fab yeah, absolutely. And just the final thing that I I I picked up on and I was just talking about this the other day in terms of because I sometimes get hired to do logo designs and just like strictly a logo design. And it's kinda hard. it's good and I love like the actual just the the graphic haikus as I call You know, it's like, you know, you're just condensing things down into the very minimalist form and shape. but that's but it's like context is everything, you know. So and I and as I said, I I preferred I preferred doing logos as part of a holistic kind of brand strategy where A lot of times it will be the very the very last thing and I think it's healthy to do all the other stuff and then you know, put put the put the s the capstone on it rather than just making the head and then just trying to fill in the body, like, you know. So I think that's more and more kind of like what I'm trying to do is that if people are coming on to logo design, I'm like, Well, let's work our way back. It was like how how are we arriving at this logo? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. And and probably much easier to sell in as well when you've got all of the thinking first. whereas when you present a logo and a logo only, it can become very subjective very quickly. And yeah, it just becomes about an individual's personal taste against someone else's. that that was exit, guys. I I congratulate you on being the most organized for this project talk section. nor normally it's me just pulling up somebody some person's website and they're just winging it, just chatting through it. But yeah, that was excellent. I I've gotta put you through the the fun slash torture of the bingo the bingo wheel of wisdom. Alex, are you aware of the bingo wheel of wisdom? I show it to you. speaker-1: I'm not, but I'm I'm here I'm here for the ride. speaker-0: That's good. That's good. I've to save the audio, I've pre drawn the ball. So what happens is I've got like ninety questions here and I pull out random numbers and those r numbers will correspond to a question and then you'll have to just answer the question. There you go, that's the rules of bingo wheel of wisdom. So fourteen. Let's go. One and four, fourteen. What was the first piece of design work you got paid for? Can you even remember? Yes. It was a nightclub flyer for a nightclub called Kef in Aberdeen. I don't if you remember Kef. I'm not familiar. The only the only piece of design software I owned was a an illegal copy of Photoshop so I did the entire thing in Photoshop and and luckily for me they never asked to make the flyer into a poster because that resolution would never have gone any higher than it was. yeah. That's amazing. That was the first thing I got Wow class. Alex do you don't remember? speaker-1: I think for me, I mean quite fitting it was actually the menu designs for the restaurant that I worked in. Actually picked up some work there. So yeah. speaker-0: I think I I think a lot of the starter jobs are like menus basically. Essentially. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. We've all done our times on the menus, you know. two. who's your favorite Instagram follow right now? It doesn't have to be design, it could be just like a just a very entertaining account. speaker-1: There was a I don't know what the handle is. Unfortunately I'm not gonna do it justice, but during the World Cup there was a guy who was before every match was playing music from the two sides. And he was picking obscure music from both of the countries. That was great. Great. Well it lasted. It's not a thing anymore. speaker-0: man, that that guy's that guy's window of going viral is just completely gone after the World Cup. Mine would probably be like shout out to Creative Boom. Katie's done an amazing job of kind of growing that community, but I am discovering so many great illustrators. They do a regular five or ten illustrators to follow and yeah, I'm I'm always forever saving their posts for projects for later on. So yeah, probably for the creative inspiration, I would say they're my top pick. Yeah, yeah, they I I really like that. is it like ten under ten K where they specifically pick people who are just under that sort of ten K kind of followers type of thing. So you know that they deserve more love than probably what they're getting. So yeah, that's amazing. Yeah, absolutely. Shout out Creative Boom. eighteen Blur or Oasis. speaker-1: I would have to go with Oasis. speaker-0: man Whoa, s thank goodness you didn't declare this before you started on the brief. It could have been a lot more attention. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. No, yeah, I'm I I've I'm a bit split in the middle because. probably blur in terms of like if you're just talking about purely the music, blur, and especially like not a massive fan of Blur, but especially like is David Alburn in terms of like what he's done in terms of gorillas and all all these other kind of side projects. I'm just I'm marvel at speaking of creativity, I just go, Whoa. That that that dude's an inspiration creatively. Far more of an inspiration than than Noel Galar who who basically well, you know, nicked kind of riffs from T Rex and basically, you know, does a be I I as it's not to knock that. I mean there's a creative genius in stealing. but I I actually find the Gallagher brothers I like I'll watch loads of interviews with them 'cause I find them really good value. Like I just think they're they're just like brilliant like yeah, super entertainment value in terms of like the so I I I think I'd rather listen to a podcast with Noel Gallagher, but I think I find Dim and Alburn far more inspiring and creative out of it. Yeah, yeah. So so it's a real fifty fifty. a couple of more of these 'cause it's slightly dying on its ours. well there we are. There I lost my questions there for a second. seventy three, what was the last thing you bought online? speaker-1: May we could see dining chairs? speaker-0: Mining chairs, okay, yeah. Is this have you moved into a new place? Or do you just need to update your di that's normally a new house purchase? speaker-1: we had dining chairs. We did just move into a new place like three months ago, but I'm six three and the dining chairs are my knees are like you know, like this when I'm sitting in them. So it's not not so comfortable. So got some dining chairs that are a decent height, you know. speaker-0: Well, this is your n this is a new follow on from Edible. You have to like tackle the challenges of dining chairs. Yeah, yeah. The the height discrepancy for the your regular dining chair. You and Richard Osman and Peter Peter Crouch, you could all get together. speaker-1: Tell ya, it pays to be average, honestly, you know. It's being being average height is like everything is made for you. speaker-0: Yeah, yeah, I dig it mine, yeah. Kirsten, what was like what was your last random purchase? I think my last purchase was a gym membership. yeah, I I found we found the gym in Paris that I liked and it it's actually really novel, so they give you a test when you first join. And and you get a bracelet. And when you scan each of the strength machines with the bracelet, it adjusts completely. Speaking of height and not being average, it adjusts to your weight, height, you know. Yeah. A very bougie gym. So that's yeah, that was my online purchase. Yeah. That's that's wild. Yeah, like that's wild. Yeah, you'll you'll see if I actually follow me on Strana, you'll see if I actually get my money's worth. Yeah, totally man. I'm giving you a follow. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Strava is the Strava is the LinkedIn for middle aged people. But yeah, no I that's amazing 'cause I always like it that kinda puts me off in terms of like going on the weight machines is just trying to like figure out go go on them and figure out like, you know, which is the best weight for me and all that and you just boom, it just does it. Just knows you and clocks your reps and everything. That's awesome. It goes one step further. And if you ever get bored using kind of machines at the gym, this kind of gym is for you because while you're doing the exercises, they gamify it. So for example, you have to catch crabs or you have to catch like fish or ice cream when you're on it. but it it was developed by physiotherapists so that you move at the right speed. And you have the right position for each exercise just by following this kind of little dot along the screen catching your crabs along the way. So yeah, I'm I'm sold. I'm hooked on it. But I've I've entered my gym plus podcast era. So I used to be gym in music all the time. and I still be music for running, but I find that if I'm sitting down doing like slower weight training stuff. Podcast is amazing. Just takes your mind somewhere else. yeah. Yeah. Amazing. Cool. best all right, sixty six best nonfiction book you read. Like ever. I think is the question. Ever. So is this this like could be a self help, so could be a biography, could be an actual one of these classic design books. I I I think you mentioned counterprint as well there, Kirsten. I'm a massive I'm a counterprint addict. Counterprint. I I try books. Yeah. And that mascot one is really good, but I I could probably give you the last one I think and Yeah, the last one. So that kind of another shout out because it's you know, sometimes when you're just kind of like looking for inspiration, you want to see some really great work, it was the International Poster Book by INTL. So they at the last conference they produced and sold a book of featuring the posters that were in their exhibition. And yeah, that's always like I love poster design and there's some really interesting work. From all over the world in that. so yeah, I that was probably the last nonfiction interesting book I looked at. What about you, Alan? speaker-1: There's a book that I read called Future Shock. I think it's by Alvin something. It's basically about it's very I think it describes a lot of what we're experiencing right now. It's basically about the psychological state of individuals and society and and how we basically cannot comprehend how quickly things are changing. It was written ages ago, but it was this like analysis of how the world is changing way, way too quickly and how we cannot keep up with it. speaker-0: Future I'm taking down the name of that 'cause that sounds like something I could get into. By Future Shock Alvin I'm gonna Google. I was gonna come up Alvin by Alvin Toffler. yeah, yeah, yeah. It's an nine nineteen seventy book. So he's re an American futurist. Wow. Yeah, I totally gotta get speaker-1: He was writing about that in the seventies, like speaker-0: Yeah, I gotta get because there's something I ponder about in terms of like, you know, if you 'cause one of the books I I I was thinking about like nonfiction is like sapiens, in terms of like plotting out the interested in anthropology and it like after reading it I felt as though, right, I kinda get the whole timeline now. a and w one of the things is interested in that future like, you know, when you when you plot out sort of the human history, n like we've d we've done nothing for absolutely centuries almost in terms of like you know i there was this quote in the V Day Museum was like nothing has happened since the Romans and if you t talk about like technology and advancements, you know, a lot of our like civilization and a lot of the big inventions are like how everything else has been kind of like just adapting to quick usability. But then in the past kind of in my lifetime, I keep thinking about is it just me or have things gone absolutely mental in my lifetime, you know? And it's like it's this kind of it's this thing about and also like the fact that you realize we're we're still our our brains haven't evolved for ten thousand years, so we still have the same brains as like, you know, the dudes that were like drawing images on caves, and now we've kind of got like you know, robots making images and stuff like that. It's just it it's it's that kind of like tectonic plates of where are like Stone Age brains and this technology that's almost like really unsettling in terms of like existentially unsettling and how rapidly it's kinda going. It's like, you know, things are becoming out of date faster and faster in my lifetime. You know, it's like it's so I th I I I'm I'm maybe paraphrasing, but I think that's what Alvin Toffler is maybe talking about is the is that a kind of like that existential dread that comes in with like technology getting faster and faster and b and yeah at the rapid rate. speaker-1: Yeah. Yeah. I think also just that we can't necessarily cope with it. You know, our brains need time to be able to process something, you know, to be able to work through a cycle of a problem or and to fully process it. But now we're moving you know, cycles are going like this, you know, we're moving way, way too quickly before our brain can even comprehend, you know, picking up the next thing. speaker-0: Yeah, the society Yeah, go on, sorry. I was gonna say, I think also many of us grew up with and you know, films and TV where technology was a very painted in a very positive light, quite utopian. I always think about Back to the Future when they had that like tiny pizza and they put it in the microwave and it came out like a giant one. Kind of like those towels that suddenly get like really massive. all the things that we kind of hoped we would have, like the jetpacks we would own, and you know, like time travel and all these cool things. And I think we're seeing this kind of like the development of technology play out and be like, no, no, no, that's not what we wanted. This is not what we were promised. So it's gone from being like this very dreamy positive vision of technology, and we're all suddenly realizing that yeah, it's It's very dystopian. in the hands of the people that it's in. and you know, we're not dealing with that very well. We're not. So we're creating our way. You you're not gonna get any hoverboards, you're just getting tools for rich fascists. That's what you're gonna get. but yeah. Anyway, future shock, that's definitely going on my reading list. Thanks for the recommendation. cool. Well the next section is the heavy dessert menu. So instead of finishing off on a a light note, seen as the word already talking about fascism. I think man, I've you would think I'd be professional and have the heavy dessert menu ready to go when for this section of the show. Right there it is. Okay. Holy smokes. So have have have you seen the heavy dessert menu? You know what I'm talking about? We have. We we discussed what kind of topics we feel we both have something to say about. and I think we both landed on self promotion without the ick. We do slightly different things. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And and it's a subject that a le less traveled road in the heavy dessert menu. So I'll be interested to chat about this one. Yeah. So it because from my perspective, running a business Myself, I have to be responsible for the marketing. And more and more like the way things are, it's about getting your face out there and get talking about it and authority. And it's more and more feeling like that's outside of my comfort zone. And I think that's where the ick ick kind of comes in, and especially when you have to maybe linked dinify yourself, where you have to kind of maybe polish things up to a place where you're like, this is start I'm starting to feel a bit corporate in my speak. And it trying to get the balance between that, I think, is very hard from my perspective. So let me know how how do you guys cope? Well, I think what you've done really well with your self-promotion is you haven't lost kind of your voice. So you are a stand-up comedian and when you've done talks like the one you did at Curio or even in the podcast, I think that comes through in what you do. And I think that's actually important to Doing the self-promotion without the ick bit. I think when you're trying to be somebody you're not, or trying to emulate other people, that can feel quite icky. but from from my perspective, I feel like the majority of work that I do is either for nonprofits or brands like edible that are social purpose. And because of that, I think I see it less as self-promotion and more as cause promotion. So if I'm talking about my work, it's not necessarily saying like, look at what I created. It's saying like this is who it's for and this is what they do. And yes, here's the work I I've done for them, but it's also trying to reach people who are maybe doing something similar, or they've also got a brand they need created because they're on this amazing mission and they have this purpose that comes the for profit. And that's the way to reach them. so I think that when I frame it like that, it doesn't feel like it's just me putting myself out there. When I enter awards, it's absolutely all about me. But when it's when it's promoting the work, I think that that's a little bit easier. although I do think that there's maybe the ick for me, which you know, you just have to get over it, is I think that when you're In a team of two or more, and you talk about what you know we created and we've produced and we've done and we've succeeded in, it's that little bit easier than saying I. so sometimes I do talk about we because I don't necessarily think of projects as being something I alone did, and because there'll be other people I take in to the team to work on. Also, I think when you're partnering with a founder. They have a huge part to play in what's produced. so yeah, I think sometimes people feel uncomfortable using a Wii when they're a one-person studio, but I think if it's you know the right context, you can definitely use that. but also there's this thing around associating self-promotion with social media. We immediately think about that. If we're talking about promotion, it must mean you must record a short form video of yourself talking about your process. But I think we've forgotten that before that. There was a whole other range of things you could do to promote yourself, which now, if anything, will cut through a lot of that noise. So when you go to in-person events and you just merely talk to people, that is also promoting yourself. sending direct mail pieces is a lost art. And I think if people received like something physical, like if you're a designer, an illustrator, a photographer, and you sent something physical to someone, that would stick around a lot longer than a video they just slide past. so I think that that kind of thing is going to come back around where there are going to be more people posting things and having physical representations of their work that they use to promote themselves. yeah. Yeah I I think Alex 'Cause I picked up on that when Alex was talking about, you know, you the stickers that you put on lampposts and what was it, a couple of hundred stickers and five hundred leads essentially. I mean like that I think I think people are too kind of honed in on that like social media is the only way to kind of get followers or get kind of clients or leads. And and it's like that that thing about print marketing is you know, you can't you can never get that sort of return in the digital sphere, I think, you know. that that return of like a couple of hundred, however many, that was a few pennies each or whatever, getting you five hundred leads, I like that that's amazing. I mean like you'd be very lucky to get one or two if that was a digital respect. So so even even as you were talking about promoting edible there there's definitely print marketing's not dead and I I I I I'd agree with yourself, Kirsten, I think it sh it could be making a more of a comeback as people kind of realise that trying to beat the algorithms and all that is such a lost art. And I think even at even at our talk, you know, Kay Simington was there from newspaper club and you know, I think the these beautiful tactile pieces of portfolios is like, you know, get loads of those printed up, you know, get a nice magazine and send them out to like the actual marketing managers or like, you know, your dream clients type of thing and go like, here's my stuff and that'll That'll cut through all the algorithms, you know? And that'll that'll stick with them far more than one of the hundred emails they got that day, you know. So I'm also I'm I'm also a big big one for print marketing. and yeah, and I suppose it's different obviously, Alex, with edible because that not necessarily self promotion, that's promoting a business. but do you ever kind of struggle with the actual talking about like you're very passionate about the the subject, so I d I take it it's not much of a struggle to kind of market or promote it because you believe so passionately about it. speaker-1: I get into a room to talk about it. No, it's not hard to talk about. I don't need to prepare for that. but I think promoting it online is something that I've struggled with. And it's only something that I've really recently and I think the ick is a good way to describe what I've been struggling with, 'cause you know, you see I don't want to become a foodie influencer. You know, it's not really a life goal of mine. I don't can't really see myself going out on the street and you know, talking to people and interviewing people. But I I think recently I had somewhat of a a realization, which is that I guess I read some advice somewhere that you need to find your niche and need to find what it is that you are talking about and own that. And I think I've come to the realization recently that that is the design slash, you know, accessibility advocate kind of angle. And I think that has made me feel a lot more comfortable about the kind of self promotion that I need to do. I think the the founder story I think is very important and I think it does a lot of work in selling. And I think that's the kind of the way I'm getting over my hesitance to produce content and push content online. But I think I've found comfort in that angle where no, I'm just talking about my experience. I'm just talking about that because that's not the experience of other people and people need to understand what my perspective is, right? And just talk it like sixty seconds just talking about why a a menu with numbers on it is no good. What is my experience and trying to make light of that and open people's eyes to other people's realities. And I think I find a lot more comfort in that than I do in seeing what other people are making and trying to emulate that because That to me gives me the I d I don't want to do that. speaker-0: Yeah, fair enough. Absolutely. Yeah. It's yeah, definitely avoid the food influencer route. It's a zero sum game. Yeah, that's awesome, guys. And I I suppose it also like the thing I I thought about there is that, you know, when once when you were developing the brand strategy and you had those three clear pillars of the actual brand, that also helps you like give that sort of elevator pitch, you know, once you boiled it down and you condensed it down once peop once you once you have that short window of an advert or whatever, referring back to that makes it a lot easier to kind of like get that message across quickly and I you know so that so that that's another testament to getting all this groundwork and this strategy done first. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And and and also even to relate it back to the ADHD, it's also it's also something I should probably be doing for my business because I do in terms of my self promotion, I'm like I have a habit of like, this week I'm all about posters, this week I'm all about brands, this week I'm all about and it's like I should I should I should probably have like three different pillars of what the actual studio is about and just like stick to the stick to the script, Pierce, because I I probably if I keep changing. Yeah, well th there's a part of me is just like again trying to like design the business around my kind of my the flow of my brain that maybe just like embracing the chaos as a generalist is also like a a a decent tactic but I do think in terms of marketing and people trying to buy my services, it would be a lot handier if I just stuck to the script about just one particular service. So yeah. Anyway, I I think that's a good way to end it now that we've married up all the strands of the chat. Thank you so much for having us on Pierce. It's like such a pleasure to talk about the project and also quite a different type of podcast for me because For a start, I've never been interviewed on one that's been videoed before, but also to actually bring a founder in of a product to talk together about working and both of our processes. I think that's really interesting. And I think there's not enough content out I said content and I there's not enough content about this. The C word is the C word safe. So Kirsten and Alex there, how good was that? Hope you enjoyed that episode as much as I did. I forgot, I should have said at the top, but obviously this is on YouTube as well. If you want to watch the video format, especially for when they chat about the work with edible, if you haven't seen it before, well worth a look at the actual visuals created for that. And the Nom brand mascot is excellent. many thanks to them for coming on, giving over their time. Really loved it. Really, really loved it. I think I think there's some really important lessons to be learned in there as well. And I hope you all had a nice time learning and growing. yeah, telescopic evolution. I think my little waffle on human civilization. I was watching Richard Linklater's Waking Life. which is this early early filminese oeuvre and it has a rotoscoping effect which is basically filmed in live action but then every frame is drawn in illustrator essentially so it's all vector bold vector shapes. So it makes a quite trippy experience. And the actual content of the film is quite trippy as well because it follows this guy around and he starts he he just w he's kind of just wandering about and bumps into all these kind of crackpots, weirdos, philosophers, all ruminating on the sort of meaning of existence. yeah, it is a total trip of a film, but there's an Irish philosopher that shows up there and it was only a few days after recording the podcast and he started talking about telescopic evolution. That the timeline of evolution is exponentially accelerating and So it takes from first life to land creatures takes probably two billion years and then the next evolution into you know, early apes is another billion years and then it takes so it keeps getting shorter and shorter, from electricity to going to going on the moon is like sixty years and then it keeps like halving and ha so the it's Almost like the square root of itself getting faster and faster. That's what I was talking about. I was like, that's what I was trying to say, except I took about five minutes and didn't say any of those words. speaker-1: Yeah. speaker-0: But yeah, little little footnote there for you guys. If you wanna go off, Waking Life is a great film. And also a Scanner Darkly made in the same sort of style. It's one of those things not a lot of people know, but it's like stars, Keanu Reeves, Robert Downey Jr., Woody Harrelson, Winona Ryder. And yeah, it's a bit of a sleeper cult film, but yeah, I love it. It's based on a Phil K Dick book as well. My fave sci-fi writer. So yeah, everything a scanner darkly, go check that one out if you're off searching for Waking Life. yeah, like, comment, subscribe, do all the lovely algorithmic stuff. I do think Kirsten's wisdom and Alex's wisdom on this podcast is definitely worth sharing. And Will I plug the shop again? Am I that desperate and needy? Yes I am. Wise love dot shop sports podcast. Buy something nice there and yeah. Next time out, I'll give you a preview. It's Steven Wakabayashi, who is a designer who set up the agency Stranger Creator Creative in New York. So I had a fascinating chat with Steven. He's an amazing guy. He's anyway. What I'll just say is that the next podcast is going to be just as fabulous and I'm really excited to get it out there and hopefully work will calm down so I won't be scrambling and to make these podcast intros and outros the next time. Although that's quite possible as well. Okay, goodbye. Goodbye and take care of yourself. Much love.