Latest / Dispatched & Dysfunctional / “I’m Fine. I’m Just Tired.” — The Lie Burnout Tells — Stephanie McAlister

Transcript

“I’m Fine. I’m Just Tired.” — The Lie Burnout Tells — Stephanie McAlister · Dispatched & Dysfunctional

• Christopher Stockton: Okay, apparently it did give you a tech countdown this time. Anyways, alright. So I've been looking forward to this one a little bit. ⁓ today's guest is Stephanie McAllister. ⁓ before titles, credentials, bios, t post internet stuff, who are you really and what made this conversation saying y saying y worth saying yes to? If I could speak today I'd be happy. Stephanie McAlister: ⁓ what a great what a great question. I feel like I looked into ⁓ your podcast, re looked into a couple episodes and I was like, you know what, this is this is a conversation I would like to have. And I also felt ⁓ like a couple of I don't know how to word this, but a couple of the worlds that I've lived in ⁓ overlap in your podcast. So Christopher Stockton: Yeah, you've you've worn ⁓ quite a few hats. We'll probably cover that in little bit. ⁓ Stephanie McAlister: I have, yeah. And I feel like they kind of they kind of fit in your podcast. My like experience ⁓ doing like a bit of first responding and crisis work and then also ⁓ working as a counselor and doing research. So I feel like not everything, but little bits of overlap there. So Christopher Stockton: Yeah, a and you you've lived our world and that's important to to for the everyone listening to understand as well as you know, you've lived in this r realm. You know, you didn't just start as a counselor, you ⁓ you are actually one that can understand when you have first responder clients that hey, this is what they're going through, this is what they need to understand or, you know, come from. Stephanie McAlister: Absolutely, yeah, I do. Christopher Stockton: And that's to me that's a big thing 'cause I I hate to say it but I don't trust a therapist that really hasn't ever lived on our shoes 'cause they can't really understand what we're going through except for what they've read and what they've been told by their ⁓ professors and Stephanie McAlister: Mm-hmm. Yeah, there's there's two things, right? It's the education and the learning different modalities. And then there's also that element of like the real human lived experience and that helps you ⁓ learn more about people and what those experiences are like. Christopher Stockton: Mentors. Very true. So something you wrote stuck with me. The idea that ⁓ you need to be strong and not let things bother you can be dangerous. ⁓ what are we asking somebody to hide when we expect them we expect nothing to get to them? Stephanie McAlister: ⁓ I think this is this is a good one. And I I said that in the realms of when you work a job where you're constantly exposed to and I'm gonna call it what it is, like trauma, right? Like if you're a first responder, you're seeing car accidents, you're seeing people who are potentially dying, right? You're seeing all of these things, you're the first one on the scene, you're seeing these horrific scenes and It's also a job. And so you're being paid to do that and you have to go to work and you have to kind of show up because I mean, hey, we all need money to live in some capacity, right? And so you keep going back and I f often find that it's expected that yeah, this is just normal. These things are normalized because it is part of the job. And it unfortunately it is normalized, but acknowledging and being gentle with yourself in that realm and realization of no, this isn't normal for the average person. To see regularly and actually taking that time to get some help and get some support. And I would argue that in the last little bit, there is a lot more of a focus on the need for counseling for first responders and the need for that true real recognition of the fact that it's like, yeah, this is not ⁓ it's not normal to see a bunch of dead bodies all the time. And it's not normal to be the first one on all these scenes, and some do stick with you. And I think that from like a trauma lens is another thing. thing to really think about, right? Is certain you may go to five car accidents and on the sixth month you're like, man, this this person reminded me of my friend and it it was really hard. yeah, I feel like it deviated from your question, like from your question. But yeah, that that's kind of what I mean there. Christopher Stockton: No, you're good. And you know, and and you're right. I I've actually s just recently started seeing a therapist and understanding the accumulation of what I've seen and how it actually affected me and the family and it it it's like you said, it it it almost numbs us in the end to what we shouldn't be numb to. Stephanie McAlister: Yeah, absolutely. And part of that is a coping mechanism, right? Like you maybe if everything set you back, you wouldn't be able to show up and and work every day, right? So there is a level of our bodies and our minds are just trying to deal so that we can go back to work and so that we can do those things. Christopher Stockton: Yeah. You so you described your fire crew as a family, people you had to feel the safe and count on to protect your life. ⁓ take me into your time as a forest firefighter if you don't mind. What's a moment that shows what that true trust felt like? Stephanie McAlister: Yeah, absolutely. So for any of any of the listeners, just to clarify, so I worked as a forest firefighter in Northern Ontario ⁓ for a couple years. And you're kind of the way that we fight fires a little bit different than the US at least. And so you're kind of dropped in the bush for 14 days and you're with the same four people and it's kind of deal with things, clean up. Obviously, we have like helicopters drop us off food and check on us and stuff. ⁓ but you're there with these four people and sometimes no contact with anyone else. And so you really truly do become like a family. And also, yeah, like that reliance on each other and that reliance of making sure somebody's got your back. And I think one of the biggest moments that stood out for me is I was on I was on a fire and b very, very common obviously when root masses are burned that trees fall all around us. And unfortunately it's a that's one of the biggest hazards because if you've got a massive tree falling on you that that can that can not be a good thing. and so I just remember I was like lottie da walking around. ⁓ and you can't hear much because you have like water pumps going and I just remember like it caught my attention. My crew member was just screaming at me and like I just moved and I felt it on the side of my arm. I just felt a tree come flying down and I just remember being like, ⁓ thank you. Thank you for that one. Because I was standing literally right underneath it and Could have taken me out 100%. So I think there's moments like that and you do it for everybody, right? Like you kinda you expect that they're gonna watch your back and they're gonna help you. And that when situations kind of get intense, that we're all banding together and we're all working our absolute hardest and nobody's nobody's kind of being lazy and sitting out, but you gotta, you really gotta give it your all, I guess, I might say. Christopher Stockton: Yeah. I gotcha. So do you feel that? Being I guess confined with them for those fourteen days, did that help build more trust, ⁓ and more camaraderie than a normal everyday job would? Stephanie McAlister: ⁓ I I would say very much so, yes. Cause it's not even like like we didn't have service. It's not like we're really talking to anyone from the outside world. Like you're eating dinner and playing cards with ⁓ the same four people and I I really think it ends up being like a sibling relationship because like obviously you're you're stuck with the same four people in the bush. There's moments where you're like, I'm gonna kill you. ⁓ but then it's also like you're really there for each other, you're really gonna support each other and you're really gonna help each other. ⁓ when when it's necessary. Christopher Stockton: Gotcha. And and d do you think that makes it easier, ⁓ when you have a crew that you trust that like that, to be able to ask for help or even really work with them? Stephanie McAlister: Absolutely. I mean, I think that I think anyone listening knows that you will put yourself in situations of a lot of danger when you're doing I mean, firefighting any job that's first responding job. And I think knowing that when you get somewhere, whether there's whether you're a police officer and someone's gonna pull a gun, you know that like, okay, there's someone behind me who's gonna look out for me and having that trust, I honestly think it's like an integral part of a lot of the a lot of the job. Christopher Stockton: True. I guess on that side too, do you think e even in the for not I I I know our forest firefighters did pretty much the same thing like you're saying the th they dropped they dropped in fourteen days. ⁓ but for everyone else, ⁓ I guess we're trying to go with this is how do you think leadership how do you think the trust with leadership should go for those things too as well, for trying to say, Hey, I need help or you know Stephanie McAlister: That's a really good question. I don't even know if I have a good answer for you, but I think, I mean, here, if I could like paint a really amazing picture and maybe this wasn't my reality, but I think having a situation where if you're seeing people in leadership talk about like, yeah, that was a really messed up situation. How are you doing? instead of normalizing things, I think that that will then open the floor for people to have those conversations and people to have those discussions and people to I think as a society, like depending on what we normalize will depend on how we react and respond to things, right? And so if it's super normalized to just like come back from a really horrible scene and like grab a coffee with your friend and like, you know, I don't know, like clean up the vehicles and get things ready for the next Christopher Stockton: Very well put. And I've actually had that happen before. ⁓ Stephanie McAlister: call, ⁓ then that's what's gonna happen, right? But if you're in a position with leadership where they're like, okay, let's sit down, how are we feeling about this? ⁓ you're not gonna have a full counseling session in the middle of ⁓ the day, I would assume. ⁓ however, it's kind of like that acknowledgement that like, yeah, this is this is an okay thing to do, and this actually might be a really good thing to do. Christopher Stockton: when I was working offshore is had a company that did that, checked on me and made sure it's good. Only people that ever done that. But anyways, ⁓ so so we need to be able to count on each other after things go bad. ⁓ just as you said. I wanna get into that expectation you questioned about the part where being capable turns into acting like nothing affects you. ⁓ what led you to see be strong and don't let things bother you as a dangerous message. Stephanie McAlister: That's good though. ⁓ well I think that so I'm gonna just reference like very from a clinical standpoint here. And I think like when we think about PTSD, there is different types of PTSD, right? And there's like prolonged exposure ⁓ to like continuous traumatic events and I think we need to recognize symptoms because sometimes people don't recognize symptoms because we learn to cope with them, right? Like I can't sleep at night, or I wake up with dreams of like thinking of this incident, or I avoid driving by this spot because it reminds me of this. Am I avoiding things? Am I having issues with my daily life? Am I noticing interferences in other capacities that are then gonna affect me in different areas, right? And I think we We kind of adapt and I'm gonna go with the example of just avoiding an area because it makes the most sense here. But let's say you go to a car accident and it was quite a traumatic car accident and you're like, Yeah, I just I just don't drive there ever. And it works, right? Like I just don't drive there. Until one day ⁓ there's construction in your other route and then you don't have a choice, but you have to drive that way. And you're starting to panic and you didn't realize, like, wow, this really stayed with me, because the coping mechanisms that we've implemented work, right? They work because we're avoiding things. And I think if you're noticing that, okay, I'm avoiding stuff, I'm trying to do things differently to avoid discomfort, to avoid those flashbacks, to avoid different things, that Christopher Stockton: That makes sense. Stephanie McAlister: And I think that that's a moment of, okay, maybe PTSD is impacting me, but I don't see it that way because I've gotten used to changing my life and realms to make myself feel comfortable. Christopher Stockton: And so how has your understanding of strength changed, ⁓ between working as a firefighter and now working as a counselor? Stephanie McAlister: Interesting. I think I think working as a firefighter is so different. So different. I'm like, how do I even compare these two? ⁓ I mean, there's the physical element. Like, I think working as a firefighter, there is a requirement that like you need to be physically strong and you need to ⁓ and I think that's another piece, like as a woman in that field, like you need to prove to the guys that like you can also hold your own and you can carry and move materials the same way that anyone else can, despite a size difference. ⁓ for anyone who can't see me, I'm I'm not a huge person, but so that was always a thing. but I think when you when you get into a world of counselors, we all talk about feelings, right? We're we're all very comfortable with that conversation. We're all very much so. How did that make you feel? ⁓ and I think there is an impact of the job in both regards. I think that Christopher Stockton: Yeah. Stephanie McAlister: From a first responding lens, it's different things that you see, different things that you hear about, different things that you're exposed to. whereas when it comes to counseling, I think there is still elements of trauma, but there is that vicarious trauma. It's it's not necessarily what you're living, but what you're hearing other people have lived through, right? You hear all these stories and so it's a little removed. ⁓ and then the other piece to that is for obvious reasons, like counselors seem to be much more. ⁓ open or wanting to have those conversations about how things impact them and how things affected their lives. Christopher Stockton: I gotcha. So you brought up a good point I didn't think about. ⁓ so as a woman in these fields of first response, ⁓ what's some of the mental struggles that y'all go through? I know y'all go through physical ones as well, but what's some of the bigger mental struggles that I guess us as men don't really realize? Stephanie McAlister: Yeah. ⁓ I think like the biggest one for me was always like being able to hold my own ⁓ and being able to continue to do the same job as everyone else to be able to be relied on. And like, I mean, I was 120 pounds soaking wet and I was working with guys who are 300 pounds. So like it it takes a little bit more effort, ⁓ but I did it. And I think I will all always remember this funny story. So sometimes ⁓ when we had a long hose line, we'd have the helicopter help us like drop ⁓ hose bags further up so that we didn't have to hike them as far. ⁓ just a lot more efficient. And they're heavy, it was like, I don't know, like 50, 60 pounds that you had to throw out of the helicopter. And ⁓ I was like, ⁓ I can I can go and do it. And the helicopter pilot like looked at me and he's like, No, I'll send, I'll send this other guy. He picked someone else, which is fine. And I guess while they were in the helicopter, ⁓ he said to my crew member, he said, he said, ⁓ could you imagine that little girl trying to throw things out? And he told the helicopter pilot, he said, Don't underestimate her. Like she can hold her own. I I would have no doubt that she could do it. And I'd work with the guy for two years. So he knew me very well. And I was just, I was a moment of like, man, come on. Like you're gonna you're gonna judge the fact that I can't do this based on how I look. ⁓ but I was pretty happy. My crew member was like, ⁓ no, I'm not, I'm not gonna let him assume that. I'm gonna have her back. So I think there is like the physical element. I mean, I there also is the reality of like you're typically like at least in where I worked, and I know this isn't the case everywhere, you're working with a lot of guys and I don't I like I don't really have anything negative to say about that. Like I was very, very lucky. A lot of the guys I worked with were truly like my brothers and really, really looked out for me and helped me and and did support like I would say when I first started working and things. felt a lot heavier and s more intense than ⁓ when you're doing it for a little bit. So yeah, I think there's that element if that answers your question. But yeah, I also I felt very lucky with the cruise that I was on. They were they were super awesome. Christopher Stockton: So something I was just curious on. ⁓ I know y'all when you see patients as counselors, y'all hear y'all pretty much live through us seeing what we've seen. do y'all wind up with PTSD as well sometimes from dealing with some of the things that we've explained? Stephanie McAlister: Yeah, it it definitely can be ⁓ it's referred to as like vicarious trauma. And so it's the experience of hearing kind of other people's horrible situations. And I do think like PTSD and burnout ⁓ in the realm of counseling is definitely a real thing and impacts people. And I mean, I think anyone can be impacted by PTSD, right? I think it's a hard and and I also think that that term is used very blanket ⁓ as a blanket statement. when PTSD is is quite a serious serious condition. There's like acute trauma, ⁓ acute PTSD, which those are a lot more common ⁓ when people have those experiences. ⁓ but true PTSD is is quite isn't as common as we make it out to be, I guess. ⁓ but we use it as like a blanket statement term. And I think the idea of experiencing trauma from a situation is kind of what we use the term PTSD to refer to. And I mean not always accurate, but sometimes it is accurate. And yeah, it's a long story, long answer longer. Yes, counselors can experience ⁓ PTSD, ⁓ the things that they're hearing. Christopher Stockton: I gotcha. So you also said keeping things to yourself can leave you isolated as well and cause more likely to burn out and affect how you show up at work. So what does this isolation look like in someone who's still showing up doing their job? Stephanie McAlister: Think about how you feel going into work. And I think that that might be this combination of strength and everything else, right? It's like, ⁓ I'm gonna do this, I'm gonna be there, I'm gonna. There was kind of like that, I don't I don't know how to word it, but like, yeah, that strength mentality. Like I have to, I have to go in, I have to show up. ⁓ but notice what the emotions, do you get super anxious before a shift? Are you like, ⁓ God, I really hope that. We don't gotta call for this, this, and this. Are you calling in sick? Are you trying to avoid things? I think avoidance is one of the first indications when maybe you have come come forward with a way of like, okay, I'm just gonna be strong and push through this. ⁓ recognizing, like, okay, how does how does this actually impact me? I'm I'm not wanting to go to work anymore. And maybe before I really used to enjoy it. I used to enjoy seeing my colleagues, I used to enjoy the job, and now it's this feeling of dread. ⁓ I think that those. and I'm I'm really focusing a lot more on the signs and symptoms in this podcast just because I feel like you can use those blanket terms and that's great and all, but how do you tangibly know? How can you tangibly tell? Christopher Stockton: And that actually brings me to my next question is where have you seen the connection between isolation and burnout become clear? Stephanie McAlister: I'm gonna actually go reference because I do think there's a team mentality. I think that in I'll reference both, like first as responder realm and counseling realm. and so I think in the realm of first responding, it it comes when you're just trying to separate. You're trying, you're not really having those conversations of connections with coworkers. You're maybe not telling your family at home that like, yeah, today was a really rough day. ⁓ and you're just getting in fights with your partner, and it's like, ⁓ okay, like this is actually impacting me in different realms of my life, but maybe I don't recognize it. And so I view isolation as like maybe I'm not saying, like, yeah, today was a really hard day. I just like need a little bit of grace. and then in the realm of counseling, I think it's really important to seek out support and seek out clinical supervision, or if you're not working in like group practices or nonprofits where you have that ⁓ kind of network of support, but making sure that you have someone to talk to yourself because for obvious reasons, when you see a counselor, everything's confidential. And so it immediately creates this isolation of like I can't really talk about it, ⁓ can't talk about the things I've heard. But there's ways to get support in different realms, right? Like having your own counselor or seeking clinical supervision of like, okay, how did this case truly impact me? ⁓ but yeah, I think that that that's another another part of it. Christopher Stockton: I gotcha. ⁓ you said that people you've connected with have made things better at every point in your life. ⁓ I want to hear what that you did, and that that part of your answer sh stay ⁓ stays with me. ⁓ through the different parts of your life it's the people you connected and worked with who make things better. Tell about one of those people and what did they do that mattered most to you? Stephanie McAlister: There's quite a few people who are coming up for me and I feel very, very blessed to say that. ⁓ I think the biggest thing, and I always I worked at a nonprofit ⁓ counseling for a while, and I always said like the work was hard. We would see people in traumatic situations, we'd be helping people in crisis all the time. But the network of women I worked with, it was like an all ⁓ woman agency. ⁓ was so wonderful and so supportive. And I always knew that I could go into their office and whether it was a work situation or a personal situation, have a could cry and they'd be there for me. and in the realm of like going back to the first responding, I think having those people who know you so well and who are there for you and want to support you and wanna be there for you and vice versa, right? Like you wanna support them and be there for them. And I think that we create such a strong bond that sometimes the part that's missing is this idea of like I need to show strength. And I mean, I think think about yourself, right? Like if you had a friend or a coworker come to you and be like, yeah, that case was really hard. I don't think you'd make fun of them. I don't think you'd make them feel stupid about it. I think you'd want to support them and want to be there for them, right? And I think there's that element of admitting that things impact you that's hard. sorry, I deviated, but yeah, I think that I realize part way through, I'm like, ⁓ I'm going off. ⁓ but I think that yeah, having that element. of support and care because the jobs are gonna be hard and I think it's the people that you come back to that truthfully keep people in those positions. Christopher Stockton: I gotcha. So you've moved through fire, counseling, research, and running a business. That's quite a feat. ⁓ that brings me to my next ⁓ that brings me to your answer about not being behind. ⁓ when I asked you on your phone what On your form I I ask questions a as well, ⁓ and you put something along the lines of you wish someone had told you earlier ⁓ that you're not behind and the past you didn't plan can take you to amazing life experiences. Can you explain that to me a little bit? Stephanie McAlister: ⁓ well. that yeah so I mean obviously I've I've tried out different things I always say I live in fast forward because I've lived in a lot of different worlds and ⁓ do things but I think that as part of that that always put me in a position where I'd be working with people who are like 10 20 30 years older than me and you're making that mental comparison of like ⁓ wow like these this is all the things that you've done and I think it's really come up for me in like the group practice realm like owning a owning a business and obviously you're always looking towards people who are way further along than you and seeing all the things that they've established and I think ⁓ this is maybe like a humbling one and it relevant in all jobs and that acknowledgement that sometimes it's just time. It's just time of continuing to do the same work. And whether that be on yourself or whether that be at a job or whether that be in building a business, ⁓ it's a recognition that sometimes patience, which is not my strong suit, giving things time is what's necessary. So that's kind of what I was what I was referring to in that realm. Christopher Stockton: Gotcha. So what unplanned turn in your life taught you all that? Stephanie McAlister: Well, let's let's see here. There there's so many. There's so many unplanned turns that I'm left here. So ⁓ I always wanted to I never actually planned on starting a group practice. That was something that I saw. I had like a couple of friends reach out about things and I was just like, you know what, maybe there's a need for like a good one stop job in Canada. ⁓ and so that's where that came from. And then the firefighting was something that I my older brother did it and he Had said to me, like, ⁓ it's a great experience, like you should really try it out. And I had finished university and I was like, ⁓ what am I gonna do next? and so I feel like there's some things that you just fall into. And I think like accepting that, and and even in the realm of research, like when I I managed a research project across Canada at one point, and when I started that job, like I was like, I am not qualified for this. And then I slowly worked my way up, and so I guess. For me, like it's the idea of being comfortable being rejected, and being comfortable with like applying for things that are out of your realm and also taking things as they come and that acceptance of their There might be pivots, ⁓ but sometimes the pivots are actually for the best. And so th embracing that I think is is really helpful and really important. Sometimes hard. Christopher Stockton: Yeah. So what what helps you see that path as something worthwhile? Stephanie McAlister: ⁓ I think this is the hard one and I love quotes and everyone makes fun of me for this. But ⁓ experience is the hardest teacher because it gives you the test first and the lesson later. and I truly believe that because you don't know. Like I look back at some things and when I was going through them, like it was enjoyable. It was great time, but sometimes you don't actually recognize the positive impact or the impact in general that certain things have in your life until time goes on. Christopher Stockton: I love that. I gotcha. So before I let you go, I got a few quick questions. So first thing that comes to mind what is the biggest lie burnout tells? Stephanie McAlister: ⁓ I'm fine. I'm just tired. I'm just tired and it's okay. And avoidance, I think, are you avoiding things? If you're avoiding things or thinking of how to get out of things, ⁓ to me that is your first indication that something's wrong. Christopher Stockton: Very true. What's one word for healing? Stephanie McAlister: Change. Christopher Stockton: I love that. ⁓ what do dependable people need to hear? Stephanie McAlister: Even if you're struggling, you're still dependable. You didn't lose your hat because you need help as well. Christopher Stockton: Very well put. ⁓ can people rebuild? Stephanie McAlister: Absolutely. Our brains literally rebuild every day. We got neurotransmitters, neurotransmitters going off. We're designed for that. So yes. Christopher Stockton: Gotcha. So for the person listening a alone tonight who thinks being strong means keeping everything to themselves, what do you want them to hear from you? Stephanie McAlister: You might not s know a different side because you've never given yourself a chance to get help or get support or do anything like that. But give yourself a chance and maybe you'll be able to see something different. Try it out, right? You can you can always go back to wearing this mask, but you don't know what you don't know. Christopher Stockton: Very true. So if people want to follow your work or reach out to you, where can they go find out more? Stephanie McAlister: Absolutely. So we are a virtual Cross Canada Counseling Clinic. We're called VirtualConnect. And if you're interested, you can find us online at virtualconnect.ca ⁓ or shoot me an email at infovirtualconnect.ca. And if you're considering counseling, thinking about counseling, wondering what that might look like, how that might fit, I also think there's always the fear of is it gonna make things worse? ⁓ so if you're interested in learning more about what something might look like, feel free to book a consultation with us or reach out. We do 15-minute free discovery calls and I'd be more than happy to answer any questions. Christopher Stockton: So I know you said you're in Canada. Do you see people in the US as well? Or is that not? Stephanie McAlister: We do not. I'm not able to serve people in the US. This is strictly Canada. Christopher Stockton: Gotcha, okay. I fear that would just be a question to throw out there. ⁓ so Stephanie, thank you for being here and having this conversation with me. It was very enjoyable. Stephanie McAlister: Perfect. Thank you so much for having me on your show. It was it was great to rack my brain about multiple different worlds here. Christopher Stockton: Yes ma'am, let me go ahead and hit stop.