Latest / The Living Loss | Navigating Invisible Grief & Identity / What to Say (and Not Say) to Someone Grieving | Hidden Grief w/ Heidi Dunstan 1|23
Transcript
- Cassandra, LMHC: Hello friends, I'm Cassandra Harris Towner. Daiana, LMHC: And I'm Daiana Bernard. Cassandra, LMHC: And as licensed mental health counselors, we're unpacking the quiet, complex griefs that don't come with a funeral because you can't heal what you don't acknowledge. Daiana, LMHC: Welcome to the Living Loss Podcast. We are so glad you're joining our conversation as we name these losses and create a meaningful path forward together. Please subscribe and share this episode with a friend. It helps us grow this community and reach others who need to know that their grief is valid. Let's dive in. Cassandra, LMHC: We talk about quiet losses on this show, and today we're looking at how to support those we know and love as they're experiencing loss and grief on many different levels. Supporting someone who is grieving is often less about finding the perfect words and more about being a steady presence. Grief can feel like living in a world that has suddenly changed while everything else continues as normal. Daiana, LMHC: Today we have invited an amazing individual to join us in this conversation. Heidi Dunstan is a certified grief educator. She's a best-selling author and an international speaker. Her passion is to help others learn what to say and not to say to someone who's grieving so we don't lose the legacies of those we have lost. Welcome, Heidi. ⁓ Heidi Dunstan: Thanks so much for having me. It's such an honor to be here with you ladies today. Cassandra, LMHC: Welcome, Heidi. We're so glad to have you here. Thank you for joining us. Daiana, LMHC: So we are excited that we are coming to an end of a season. I can't believe it. I give us taps on the back for committing to this. and just have had so much fun. we have had amazing guests. And something that comes up almost every episode, even when it's ⁓ Cassandra and I, ⁓ is either what do we to someone who's grieving? And we hear a lot of what people that we shouldn't really be saying that either makes things worse, hurts hurts our feelings. we also talk about non-death grief, which is grief that's just not acknowledged. And ⁓ usually it comes down to our identities. When we lose something, someone, our identities change. sometimes we're treated maybe like a past version or ⁓ We don't have that help along the way as our life, as our identity is changing. Heidi Dunstan: Yeah. And and it's significant, right? And people think that grief is just about when somebody dies. And it isn't. It is about loss or change of any kind. And so it isn't just about something disappearing. It could be that our schedules change, our jobs change, our finances change, our health changes. you I had a friend recently who she had a ⁓ a lumpectomy because she had breast cancer. And I could see the grief that her body was different. And I was like, My friend, you're grieving. And she was like, No, no, like nobody died. And I'm like, But your body is different. And you're grieving the fact that it you feel different. And she was all of a sudden the tears came. And I was like, Of course, like allowed to let that out. But we live in this world that isn't really grief equipped. So we keep it all bottled up or we do it behind closed doors. And Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Mm. Heidi Dunstan: That's where the magic of grief gets lost is and that's the legacy and that's the holding space and the connection that can happen, all because we're afraid to say the wrong thing. Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Cassandra, LMHC: And so ⁓ all of that in mind, Heidi, where did your journey with this start? Heidi Dunstan: So, I mean, w I've had loss all throughout my life, but a significant loss I had in 2018 was ⁓ my husband, ⁓ it was days after Christmas. It was the day before my 40th birthday. I'd found out he was planning surprise birthday party for me, ⁓ and I found out the menu chicken wings and cake, because that's how he rolls. ⁓ So I said, let's go to and get those chicken wings, and I'll enhance the menu a bit. ⁓ we came home and we're unloading the groceries and he had a massive heart attack. In the ho in the driveway. So an hour later he was gone. ⁓ ⁓ I learned really fast that I have really great friends and family that love and adore me, but they didn't have, they weren't grief equipped. They didn't know how to navigate some of those conversations. And many them just disappeared. People that I thought were going to be there just disappeared because they didn't know what to say, or I reminded them that he was gone. ⁓ And Daiana, LMHC: Mm. Mm. Heidi Dunstan: As I spent more and more time with grievers, because that's where I actually felt like I could be seen, and it kind of dispelled some of the crazy of grief. realized that my story was the same as many other grievers, ⁓ that their people around them felt like they were walking a landmine, and so they said nothing at all. And that silence was deafening. And then the people that did say things that missed the mark, they were things that often miss the mark big. You know, don't worry, ⁓ young, you'll find love again. Because my love just switched off for him like it was a light switch when he died. It doesn't work like that. I had somebody else who said, I understand grief. I went through divorce. yeah, like, no, I didn't need to hear that five days after my husband died. you know, I mean, the next day was my birthday. ⁓ that sucks. It's your birthday. ⁓ no, it sucks that my husband died. Right? ⁓ we just ⁓ Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Heidi Dunstan: We live in this world that isn't pain equipped. We're good when people are good, fine, or okay, but we're not okay when they're sad, angry, hurt, grieving, and we don't know how to hold that space. And I like to teach people how to hold that space because that's where the magic of legacy lasts, and that's also where the magic of connection happens. And and we all get to give a little bit of grace, which I think is a beautiful thing as well. Daiana, LMHC: It's so ⁓ I think that's something that's been coming up also with everyone we've interviewed all of our conversation is the loneliness of grief. Heidi Dunstan: Very isolating for sure. And and I think part of it i i ⁓ it's two-way street. I ⁓ when did our pre-call, I told you guys I'm pretty blunt. And, ⁓ you ⁓ that people around us ⁓ have, know, need to be supported, but they also need to be accountable. You know, I have people that are like, My friends never called, and I'm like, My husband died, my fingers didn't break, I can dial their numbers, ⁓ right? I have to be accountable to that as well. ⁓ But also think that, when somebody's going through grief or significant change in their life, they do need little reach outs. And the reach outs don't need to be intense. It could be something as I'm thinking about you today and I wanted to see how you're holding up. Or I'm sending you a hug, you've been on my mind. And all of a sudden that little text can either instigate a conversation that is real or it could just be, thank you, I needed that today, you know, because I felt really alone. ⁓ And it doesn't matter if somebody's going through a health journey, it doesn't matter if they've just lost their job, it doesn't matter if they're going through a divorce or a relationship change, if they've lost somebody significant in their life. acknowledging when somebody comes to your mind, send a text because it could make such a big difference. Daiana, LMHC: it's like a domino effect. ⁓ lost husband, then then you start losing Then there's things that you don't even notice. ⁓ I think had mentioned ⁓ even the word widow to identify with that word. How is for you to navigate all those losses in between? And then also ⁓ even realize. like who am I? What's my identity now? I'm not a wife, in in all parts. Heidi Dunstan: Yeah, it's I mean, every aspect, especially when it's a spouse loss or a child loss, those big significant losses, they're ⁓ they they make every fiber of your being change. you eat, how you shower, how you clean the house, how you d change the bed, like everything changes. It doesn't even make sense how it changes until you have to do it. And When all of a sudden you have to start filling out forms the doctors or the dra DMV or the ⁓ those places, you know, I mean, right now I live in Canada and ⁓ in the middle of census and they're like, What's your relationship status? You know, when I had to do the first cens ⁓ after Mike died, it was like I'm widowed. And they look at you. I mean, I was ⁓ my forties. I'm 47 right now, right? Like, ⁓ don't look like a widow. And ⁓ Daiana, LMHC: Mm. Heidi Dunstan: that kind of tees up the fact of why things are so hard with grief is because it comes with judgment. A widow is supposed to be a little old lady, you know, I mean there's widows that are twenty years old. And we can release the judgment of what what it's supposed to look like, what a widow or widower is supposed to look like, what a parent who has lost a child, and we can just love somebody exactly where they're at, it'll it really does support Grief. And the hard part is is with grief, it's as individuals are fingerprints, so none of us do it the same. And somebody doesn't do it the way we do it, it means that we judge them oftentimes. And that judgment, I believe, is grief's kryptonite. I believe that when we judge somebody, it's like, well, why are you s why'd you take off your wedding ring so ⁓ soon? Or why are you dating? Or, ⁓ know, why is the Daiana, LMHC: Hmm. Heidi Dunstan: Why why won't you take down your child's bedroom or why are you wearing that shirt or their hat or all those things all judgment filled? And it's like we it doesn't serve us. And when we can release that judgment, it makes such a world of difference. And often compare ⁓ grief judgment and grief to America's Got Talent. Have you ever watched that show? And you know, when they get the golden buzzer. ⁓ Daiana, LMHC: Yeah. Cassandra, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Heidi Dunstan: And they're gonna go to the live rounds, do they all celebrate the same? Cassandra, LMHC: No. Heidi Dunstan: No, and do we judge how they celebrate or do we celebrate alongside them? Daiana, LMHC: I think we'd celebrate. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Heidi Dunstan: Alongside them. What when you when you watch the cameras and somebody's celebrating on stage, they go and look at the the audience and there's people laughing and crying with them. But we don't do that when somebody's going through pain. We don't sit alongside them very well and say, Hey, I see you. I see this is hard. Right? Oftentimes we'll say, I'm sorry for your loss. That's a statement I don't love. Right? I lost my husband, but Daiana, LMHC: Mm. Mm. Mm-hmm. Heidi Dunstan: Thousands of people loved him. They lost him too. So it's not just my loss. And so I often will say losing a spouse is a significant loss and my heart goes out to you. I acknowledge the pain. I'll acknowledge it takes a lot of courage for you to get out of bed today. Thank you for showing up. I acknowledge I never sit tell somebody they're strong. I acknowledge their courage and I acknowledge the pain because we don't do that very well. Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Mm. Heidi Dunstan: And when we can actually say, Hey, I see this is hard. You know, I wanna I wanna be here with you. How can I support you today? Not call me if you need me. Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. That's a hard one for me to hear is the strong. anyone who knows me sees me as a strong person, as a leader, someone who figures things out, doesn't need apparently emotional support ⁓ because got it. ⁓ and very I think that their intention is to say that, but the word that they use is saying you are strong, ⁓ it Cassandra, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Daiana, LMHC: it negates your experience. All of things ⁓ kind of mm-hmm. ⁓ Heidi Dunstan: It kind of absolves them from having to lean in. I always I I call my program Lean Into Grief. It's those moments when we actually want to step back. Those are the moments when we're meant to lean in and support them. Right? Mm-hmm. Yep. But guess what? That's where the magic is. And it's the like I had lots of people that left, but I also had angels that showed up that I didn't anticipate. Right? And, you know, I had I mean Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Because it feels uncomfortable. That part. Tell us more. Heidi Dunstan: Some of my closest friends backed away. And I had people who weren't my closest friends that showed up. I mean, one lady ended up staying at my house and taking down Christmas and helping to organize all the food at the funeral and did so much to support me. And I I mean, she was i in my circle of friends, but I didn't think that she would be that close to me ⁓ that time. Right. the are are amazing. you know, about eleven months after Mike died, I was out for lunch with a friend. ⁓ he was moving to the States, so it was kind of a goodbye lunch. And it was I was probably four weeks away from Mike's kind of I call it his wing anniversary, the day he got his wings instead of his death anniversary. And I was really nervous about going through that time of year, going through Christmas without him and the anniversary of his death, my birthday, New Year's and his birthdays early in January. And so I was pretty anxious. Daiana, LMHC: Mm. Heidi Dunstan: And I'm sitting at lunch and I just broke down and I had a big cry. And he didn't stick Kleenex in my face. He didn't tell me, Heidi, call, you know, don't cry, you'll make me cry too. He just let me be. And he was like, I see how hard this is for you. I ran into him a couple years ago and I was like, I want you to know, like, I talk about that moment ⁓ many times because I just being witnessed. Daiana, LMHC: Mm. Heidi Dunstan: I wasn't told to stop stop my crying. We were in a restaurant. Like I was messy crying. And he was just like, You're allowed to. You know? And I'm so grateful that I felt safe enough to do that. ⁓ mean, we all know, we've all had grief in grocery stores and in our cars. And I mean, the grocery stores, I don't know what music they play that gets me. ⁓ You it. Daiana, LMHC: Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Heidi Dunstan: And then when all of a sudden you walk by their favorite food or you don't like I didn't Mike drank four liters of ⁓ or a gallon of milk a day or every three days. So I mean to not have to buy milk again, because I don't drink milk. Like those things, they get you just like that, right? Or that scent or that music or just being at that restaurant, whatever that whatever activates it. I never say trigger, because I believe yeah, I believe grief is love. Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. It is an activation. Mm-hmm. Heidi Dunstan: When you witness gr deep grief, it's because you're witnessing deep gr love. And I truly believe that I will love Mike to the last breath I take. ⁓ it doesn't mean I won't love somebody else along the way. But when you see somebody grieving, it's because they are they've they love that person or that situation or navigating the change, even if it's a big like a good change. Mt ness syndrome, right? Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Heidi Dunstan: Parents, they still love their kids. It's just they're trying to navigate what their life is gonna look like without all these, you know, the noise in the people. and think we also try to think, ⁓ you know, everybody loses their parents, you should be expected of that. Everybody loses their grandparents, ⁓ you we should all just be prepared for that. And it's like, no, ⁓ you what? We lose them, we we deserve to grieve them. Daiana, LMHC: Mm. Heidi Dunstan: It it's a normal response. And so when somebody's willing to be open with you, I'm honored when somebody's willing to share their grief with me. Cassandra, LMHC: I was just thinking about like the practical application of someone who's grieving because I I cringed a little bit at the idea that I've been the one that been like, hey, call me if you need anything. ⁓ Because that's the responsibility of my support on the person who might not even be able to tie their shoes that day. So I'm just kind of curious as to if you have practical things that we can do for people that are grieving. ⁓ Heidi Dunstan: I think offer, you know, hey, I'm picking the kids up at soccer. Do you want me to grab your kids? ⁓ Or going to pick up groceries, what do you need? Not do you need anything, it's what do you need. and sometimes it's just, hey, you know, make note. Like if you go over and that you open their fridge and you know that they drink two percent milk, ⁓ make a note of that and like, Hey, do you need some two percent? Like, start figuring out what they need because can tell you like they don't know what they need. Offering things like it's fall cleanup, well you know it's springtime, summertime right now. We're gonna start cleaning yards. Do you need a hand? Offer specific things because I can tell you that first 18 months after my mic ⁓ Mike died, ⁓ was a zombie. I didn't know what I needed. The I mean I'm glad my plants wilted because then I would remember to water them. My cat me out, so at least I knew to feed her. The only thing that grew really well in my house was the onions in the lazy Susan cupboard, 'cause they do really well in the dark and they don't require water. so well, you know, I'll I'll take it as a win, Cassandra. Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Cassandra, LMHC: They weren't supposed to grow there. Daiana, LMHC: Mm. Heidi Dunstan: mean, you have to kind of find some humor in it. I do. I mean, I life is so serious on a good day. but just offer the support when you can. ⁓ early it happens, there's a great tool, meal train dot com. It's free, where you can actually create a profile for somebody and s ⁓ sign up bring meals over. And they sign up. You you can put in your dietary stuff. You can say how many people are gonna be there, ⁓ and then you can say, Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Heidi Dunstan: how often you want it. But then whoever's gonna bring the food that day will also know what was brought so that you don't end up with 17 casseroles ⁓ nobody needs that either. and think outside the box a little bit. Like I had a friend who would bring me snacks because she knew I wasn't eating much. So she brought me trail mix and she brought me, ⁓ you know, things that wouldn't go bad. ⁓ cheese and crackers and things that I could just nibble on if I was hungry because I would Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Mm. Heidi Dunstan: Eat a little bit and then I was like, I'm done with this. and so just show up the way they want. My neighbor, instead of bringing me flowers, he brought me the Costco size case of clean really good Kleenex because he knows I'm a sprinkler, right? think about you would want to be supported and offer that support, or simply just ask, hey, what is it that you need? Is there anything you need right now? And those are questions you need to be asking. How th if they've lost somebody, one of the questions you don't need to ask is how the person died. And that's the question we often ask the most how did they die or what was the cause of death? Like it's a crime scene TV show. ⁓ that information doesn't help you to help them. It only helps your curiosity, and it means that they've got to relive that day. So if they want to tell you that story, let them, but don't force them. ⁓ if you knew the person who has passed, and you feel like you need to know that information, you may want to phrase it of, may I ask? Cassandra, LMHC: Mm-mm. Heidi Dunstan: Ask for permission for them to want to go there, if they want to go there or not. give them that grace, because the day that they've lost somebody is a traumatic day. It doesn't matter if it was expected or not. and so give them that grace to not have to relive that if they're not up for it. Cassandra, LMHC: Thank you for that. Heidi Dunstan: Mm-hmm. Daiana, LMHC: I hope that this relieves a lot of fear that we all have around people who are grieving. it's not their responsibility to make you feel better. ⁓ and that that your discomfort is still less than their pain, right? Like you can be uncomfortable because they're in so much greater pain. And at that moment it's really it's not about you. And to find almost comfort or freedom in that. Like, ⁓ it's ⁓ Heidi Dunstan: ⁓ totally. Daiana, LMHC: It's not about me, it's about them. Heidi Dunstan: Exactly. Yeah. And it's it's about showing up and witnessing them. It's about asking questions and listening. And sometimes it could be something as simple as sitting in silence. Hey, can I bring over a tea and just be with you? I know that there was days where I was like, I just need to pretend like my life isn't following up falling apart. Can we ⁓ for a walk? Or can we go and walk through antique shops and go do something that ⁓ wouldn't normally have done with Mike? And I just got to pretend like my life was normal for an hour or two. And know that with grief, a lot of grace is needed. Right. So when you know, understand that grief comes with a ton of you either sleep too much or you don't sleep at all, you don't eat or you eat too much, ⁓ you have complete and utter brain fog. And so I know for me, like I'd be talking on the phone while driving, like on Bluetooth, and I'd say to somebody, hey, we made plans. By the time I get home, I won't remember what we made. Can you please text me or send me a calendar invite so that it's in my calendar? Cause I won't remember. And I for would forget stuff all the time, or I'd have I'd wake up thinking I would have all the energy in the world and I'd wake up going, I feel like I just got hit by a truck and none of this is gonna happen. Right. And so realize, you know, if somebody says, Hey, I'm not gonna make it to dinner, say, Hey, today sounds like a hard day. Do you want leftovers tomorrow and a visit? Rather than feeling upset that they didn't show up for you. Give them that grace and be like, hey, you know what? No big deal. Like we'll I will I'll catch up with you later and I'll bring you a plate of food tomorrow. We get to hold space and and you'll see the difference in your relationships. You know, it just the friends that were able to show up for me are still friends, and the friends that said Really awkward things are no longer in my life because I live life through a very different lens now. Right? And it's like those things matter. make sure if somebody's important to you, if you make a mistake and you say something that hurts, ⁓ just apologize. Cause you'll know, you'll know it felt awkward. And if somebody said, Hey, that that stung, just apologize and say, you know, it I'm I'm uncomfortable in these situations ⁓ I stuck my foot in my mouth. I'll put the salt and pepper shaker in there too. you're important to me and I'm doing I I'm trying. I really want to be here with you and please tell me what you need. Because sometimes it's not received the way that it w it ⁓ the way it was intended. Daiana, LMHC: There are two things also that come up that I hear a lot is that people say, ⁓ I don't want to mention them because I don't want to make you sad. And another one is like, I want to give you space. Heidi Dunstan: Yeah, they're already sad. Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Heidi Dunstan: So and it's amazing what happens. Like some people don't want to talk about them. Some people it's like it's too hard, it's too much. Be hey, ⁓ then me what you would like to talk about. Because I'd like to be here with you. Would you like company? Right? Don't just assume. And and lot of people, yeah, you do they ⁓ do they want to give you space or are they just afraid to be in this space and there's a difference? And so turning around and saying, you know. You're important to me and I'd like to support you the way you need, what's w what's the best way that I can show up? Do you do you want company? Do you want like do you what what do you want? Do you want to sit and plant your herb garden together? Do you wanna do things together? Do you need help with errands? Well what is it? What can I help you with? And if they want the space, honor it. But I can tell you lots of times, when there's death, if somebody wants, ⁓ Daiana, LMHC: Mm. Mm-hmm. Heidi Dunstan: To be able to they want to hear their person's name. They want to hear stories about them. So turn around and don't ask about ⁓ what happened or if they were sick. Turn around and say what made them, what made your person laugh? Like, you know, and use their name. Talk about how you you love, if you knew the person, say, I love how you l lit up when you share stories about them. I love this story. Or if you have a story, I love hearing stories about Mike and how people remember him. You know, it touches my heart. And so give those opportunities. That's where social media comes in play too. You can put those posts on social media. You know, I had a friend who was like, I love the fact that him and I had a deep connection over milk because they both loved milk, right? And Mike always had a joke. He would go to the grocery store and buy milk and he would he always bought it in the jug. And they'd be like, Do you want to put it in a bag? He's No, just keep it in the jug, please. Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Uh-huh. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Heidi Dunstan: Like, you know, and so whenever whenever I d I don't buy milk very often, but every once in a while I get to say it if I'm picking it up for my mom or something. I'm like, No, just keep it in the jug, please. And it's those little memories that we get to hold on to, right? With those ones that we don't want to forget. Daiana, LMHC: ⁓ no. Cassandra, LMHC: That's the legacy that you were talking about above, like making sure that we can keep them alive through their legacy. Heidi Dunstan: Yeah. Because early on, I mean, grief is grief is hard. Like it's it's emotional, there's lots of emotions, there's lots of sadness as we learn to love them in a new way. That's all we're doing. We're used to loving them here where we can touch them, hug them, talk to them, smell them, all of those things. And now we have to learn how to love them in a new way and it takes some time. Right? ⁓ ⁓ need that time. And I would say as a widow. most of my widow friends we say at the 18 to 24 mark, something shifts. not that it got easier, it just got different. ⁓ ⁓ there's nothing there's no prescribed anything. It's just the way it is. ⁓ so that 18 to 24 month mark, just be there for your people. Put in your calendar the anniversary of their death, put in their calendar their birthdays. If it was a mother or father that passed away, ⁓ Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Heidi Dunstan: Put in Mother's Day, reach out. ⁓ and and it doesn't need to be intense. Just be like, hey, I know it's the first year without your mom. I wanted you to know I was thinking about ya. You know, when you get those messages, it can mean a lot to somebody. And and if you put it on a yearly cycle, I can guarantee, like I I'm almost eight years into Mike's the anniversary of Mike's death, and not many people acknowledge it anymore. And the few people that do, it's like, Thank you. Thanks for knowing that today he's on my mind and in my heart, right? And so Daiana, LMHC: Mm. Mm-hmm. Heidi Dunstan: Yeah, it doesn't need to you don't need to help unpack anything. Don't it doesn't need to be big, but just an acknowledgement and then witness that thinking about ya Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Another thing that stands out that I know will help many people kind of take that pressure off of them that you don't have to come up with the things ⁓ or them this is make you feel better. And you you're doing it because you you won't wanna help, ⁓ but that not be the thing. So now that's not your responsibility, doesn't that alleviate and help you show up, right? Heidi Dunstan: Yeah, exactly. Grief doesn't need to be fixed. It does even it needs to be witnessed. Right? That's it. Like you unless you have the ability, if somebody's grieving the loss of a ⁓ the death of somebody, you unless you have the ability to bring them back from the dead, you can't fix it. And so it just deserves to be witnessed. And if they're dealing with a grief of something in life, a a change, it just deserves to be witnessed. It that's it. no fixing, there's no, it's gonna get better. All things happen for a reason. No. There's reason. ⁓ Just them be, let them navigate the emotions, let them ⁓ do they need. And and realize that grief happens in the small places. Like ⁓ if were to break your leg today and it's your right leg and you can't drive for four to six weeks, you're gonna grieve. Right? It's not it's not permanent. Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Yes. Heidi Dunstan: We navigate grief every single day. Right? And so acknowledge that. When your friend loses their job, how many of us identify with our our identity is based on what we do for work? Turn around and check in on your friends and not just the first couple of days, the first few weeks and months. sometimes it can take a bit for the shock to wear off. And just be like, hey, how are you holding up on about that? That was a big change in your life. And I know that what you do for work, it means a lot to you. Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Cassandra, LMHC: Making me think of different conversations that we have had in the past about how it it can't be comparative. Like one person's grief to whatever it means to them, to whatever this loss, whatever the loss is, whether it it's a spouse, whether it's ⁓ had someone on that was talking about pet loss, like their entire world turned upside down, or even the loss of identity or career or hope for the future, like whatever you thought this journey was gonna be, suddenly it's not. To compare grief is unfair to yourself. Heidi Dunstan: And the hard part is, is that's how we tend to approach the conversation is comparing and it's our way of trying to say we empathize, but it usually comes off wrong. Right? I I mean, people tell me stuff all the time. I people tell me things that they don't tell their closest friends. I don't know why. But I can tell you that first year after losing Mike, I was holding more grief stories of other people's grief while trying to navigate my own. And so I don't Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm. Heidi Dunstan: You know, I don't to go into the compare space. You know, if somebody says, Hey, I'm I'm navigating a loss, I lost my husband, I'll be like, That's a significant loss. And they will go, Have you experienced it? And I'll say, Yes, I've experienced my own journey with it. Yours is different. And know that all of our journeys are different, right? When when somebody loses a parent and their siblings, All the siblings aren't going to navigate the grief the same because they all had a different relationship with that person. And they also have different tools to it that they're equipped with to navigate that grief. You know, and some of them, like I know in some families, one family member, one child maybe knows what the parents' wishes are, and the other child didn't want to have that conversation and they didn't know what those wishes were. And that changes how much they how they navigate grief because they're having to do all the Well, I don't know if they want to be cremated. I don't know if they want to be buried. I don't know like all of these things, or organ donation, all that stuff. And so it can really limit how they move through grief because they've they're almost plain catch up. And so it's hard when we look at comparison and you look at husbands and wives, grief is often if if a a couple is going through grief, it's often a big peace in divorce. because they navigate the grief differently and they have a hard time respecting how the other person's navigating it. Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Heidi Dunstan: Right. So if a husband goes quiet and a wife goes into control mode and needs to control everything and husband isn't talking and she's like it it's like it doesn't even matter for you. And now of a sudden the judgment's getting slung back and forth. Cassandra, LMHC: That makes a lot of sense. Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. ⁓ judgment. It's powerful. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Heidi Dunstan: And then ⁓ yeah. And then it happens at work, right? I mean grief comes to our workplaces. I mean it doesn't it's not like we walk out the door and we don't grieve anymore and all of a sudden you're like they don't see you. They they don't see that your life is turned upside down and inside out you're feeling like you're completely unseen and the the rates of turnover post loss oftentimes people don't report, Hey, my husband died, I quit my job. Daiana, LMHC: Hmm. Heidi Dunstan: They often report that they don't feel like they were valued or that they were seen, and it's usually a year to two years after a major significant loss. And if you actually correlate it, it's because the teams weren't equipped to handle the grief and handle the fact that somebody was grieving. You know, I have a a friend of mine, he was a widower, and he came to work and the boss was like, Look, like you're just not producing. And he was like, Look, man, I'm lucky I'm wearing pants today. Like Daiana, LMHC: Ha ha Heidi Dunstan: He's like, Life is hard. Like my wife died, and I've got three teenagers and they're all grieving. And I mean, I can't even imagine. I don't have children, but I can't imagine. I know what it was like watching my mom watch me grieve, ⁓ 'cause she hadn't experienced a us a death of a spouse. ⁓ it's like to have to watch your children grieve their mother and on top of that deal with your own grief. ⁓ And all of a sudden your work your work is like, hey, step up and it's like, hey, can you come and talk to me about what's going on? 'Cause my world isn't the same. Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Heidi Dunstan: Those grief equipped conversations can go such a long way. Cassandra, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Daiana, LMHC: To me, it's just a phenomenon. ⁓ sometimes wonder, do you have to go through it to to know how to help with it? And I'm like, no, well, no, maybe you don't. And if everyone through it, why are we so bad at it? You know, if everyone goes through, why do we only get three days of bereavement? Why isn't it weaved into our workplace to be supported direct grief? I'm just like. Sometimes you just don't even want to think about it ⁓ it's so Heidi Dunstan: It's a lot. Daiana, LMHC: ⁓ complex. ⁓ Heidi Dunstan: And it's I mean, yeah, we all go through it. And definitely I would say that once you go through it you realize all those sticky conversations ⁓ that you w were kind of put in. so you live life with a different lens and you've got a little bit more compassion. ⁓ Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Heidi Dunstan: But it's amazing when you're a leader who's gone through grief where you can say, Hey, my teammate has lost is going through a loss, and you can actually show up for them and and let them be witnessed and go, I don't expect to be at that same level. You know, you need to be able to move through these emotions. ⁓ I say like grief kind of just takes your brain offline. ⁓ And Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Sure it does. Heidi Dunstan: It's hard and for people to think that you're gonna show up the same way that you've always shown up, it's impossible. Right. And the brain fog is so big that it actually activates your grief again. 'Cause when you forget something or you know, it takes you longer to do stuff. I know like the first few months I'd sit down at my desk to do work and three hours would pass by and I had no idea what I did in those three hours. Like time I I just say grief is a bit of a vortex when it comes to time. And people were like, Well, why aren't you getting this stuff done? And I was like, I Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Heidi Dunstan: I don't know where the time went. And I just needed that grace. I needed that the ability to just be, 'cause my body couldn't do it. I'm you know, and it took I would say probably almost four years for me to get my brain back to where I wanted it to be, where I was prime kind of post. It's not fast. And for us Grief goes as far as this funeral service and then the world starts spinning fast again and we still expect people to get back on the on the world and it doesn't work like that. Daiana, LMHC: Yeah, I appreciate you said that. Cassandra, LMHC: And you said the mm hmm. And you said the word that I've been thinking, it's expectation. Like all of this judgment, all of this guilt, all of this shame that comes along with grief is based off of expectation. Whether it's the expectation of crying, you're gonna make me cry, or even the expectation of It's been three months, shouldn't you be over this by now? it's all based on this expectation and timeline and idea that we have that things just keep moving. Heidi Dunstan: You know, we don't get to choose what the timeline looks like. Grief doesn't have a timeline. You know, a few years ago I was I was speaking with a woman. she's a grief educator as well. Her husband had been gone twelve years. so and I think I was only a couple of years in, three, four years in maybe. and she was having a really hard day. And I was like, Can you tell me what's going on? And she's like, Today would have been my or today it her that day. And she was now older than she would than she was than her husband was when he passed. And she was like, I was never supposed to be older than my husband. You know, my for me, I only had my husband in my life four years. I met him in 2014 and he passed in 2018. And so when I hit five years that he was gone, I was like, it doesn't seem right that he's been gone longer than I had him. And so know that when somebody has a a grief day. Daiana, LMHC: Mm. Heidi Dunstan: Or a grief moment and it doesn't fit the timeline, know that there's usually a story associated with it. it deserves just as much grace ⁓ all of the others in the early moments. and even if it's just a moment, like it's, you know, a wedding or a graduation or something that that person's supposed to be there, or even if it's just, I miss them today, you know. I I'm now associating when I say I miss Mike, I also say I love Mike. The two go together for me. Right? Like I when I talk to Mike every day and at night I'm like, I miss you babe and then I'm like, No, I love ya babe 'cause I want to focus on our love, not on the fact that he's not here. Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Mm. Mm-hmm. Heidi Dunstan: But I it's hard 'cause we also the expectations and the judgment that we get from others are significant, but we also have them for ourselves. Cassandra, LMHC: Yes. Heidi Dunstan: You know, and yeah. Daiana, LMHC: Right, that's what I wanted to mention. That we because we're unsupported, people feel so much guilt. You know, ⁓ you mentioned that it took it was like four years before you felt like that brain fog. If if we don't hear conversations like this and say it does take a long time, you feel guilty, like or something's wrong with you. Why is this taking so long? Or ⁓ I you start taking that narrative. I'm supposed to feel better. Heidi Dunstan: I should be over this by now. Right. And I think too, like a lot of people of believe in the stages of grief. And I don't love the term stages. because it's a hot mess. Stages tell me that I'm supposed to move through one stage and move to the next. ⁓ And like, no, I move through the anger stage and then I go to the the the sad or the shock stage ⁓ just as And ⁓ Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Mm. Heidi Dunstan: I like I have a diagram where it's like this hot string, it's all in a heart, but it's this hot mess. And I don't get to choose what stage I'm at. And sometimes I can be in multiple stages in the same moment. And so it's not one and done. And when all of a sudden I have this expectation, ⁓ it's been a year, I can tell you the first year I was a zombie. The second year is actually when I felt more of the pain of that loss. ⁓ Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Heidi Dunstan: And I always equate it to like dental surgery. The first year you're you're numb. Your face is numb. the second year is when the freezing comes out. The second year is when you notice that you didn't get to go to that restaurant, or there's this wedding to go to and you're gonna go solo. Or ⁓ know, booking your vacation and you're like, I'm only booking one ticket. ⁓ you're writing gift names on ⁓ I I remember the first Christmas. ⁓ Daiana, LMHC: Mm. Mm-hmm. Heidi Dunstan: It broke my heart to write h not write his name on the gift tags. Daiana, LMHC: Mm. Mm. Heidi Dunstan: Right. And it's like we don't get to choose what those what those pains act I mean, p I'm still it brings tears to my eyes, right? Like it's just like and so when if you get to lean into those moments, you witness one of those moments where somebody's like, ⁓ this is hard right now. Cassandra, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm, mm hmm Of course it does. Heidi Dunstan: Don't try to wash it over. Lean into it and go, hey, I see things are hard. Not do you need space. ⁓ It's like, hey, I see that's hard right now. Can you do you want to tell me what's going on? Or do you want to talk about it? And you don't have to be a counselor. You don't need to be a coach. You just have to be a friend that can listen. And all of a sudden, when you do, and they're like, you know, when I say, hey, it's really hard not to write his name on this gift tag, you can be like, Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Mm. Heidi Dunstan: you want to share some of the gifts that you guys like to share with other people? And now they get to tell you a story about their person. Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Heidi Dunstan: And I can tell you when I get to tell stories about Mike, day is complete. And a few years ago I was on a plane. I I travel a lot for my my regular job. So I was on a flight and met a gentleman who we had really great conversation. His name was Roger. And a part our conversation included Mike. And he asked great story ⁓ questions about Mike and he just listened. And at the end of the conversation, Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Heidi Dunstan: He gave me the best compliment, which was I wish I met your Mike. He sounds like an amazing man. And I want more people to receive that compliment. And I want people to be able to give it. That would be like the best. Imagine if you get to say that to somebody, I wish I met your person. Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Heidi Dunstan: Like, you know, yeah. Cassandra, LMHC: Beautiful gift. Heidi Dunstan: And it means that it means that you got to carry a piece of their legacy 'cause they passed that torch to you. Daiana, LMHC: In that moment you can feel ⁓ genuineness in that maybe in way they did to meet a part of Mike because of the stories and they got to feel that experience through you. Mm-hmm. Heidi Dunstan: Exactly. And I I think we deserve that. I think both parties deserve it. You know, you have to be okay with the messy. Right? It's not I mean, we talk about the fact that we have this expectation that grief takes so long. But if we were happy for four years, we be like, ⁓ it takes so long? ⁓ Daiana, LMHC: Right. Right. Heidi Dunstan: Right? mean, it takes what it takes. ⁓ you know, I always tell people go get help. When you're dealing with grief, go and see somebody who's ⁓ certified in grief. I know you guys are mental health counselors, ⁓ but I can tell you that there are and and there's ⁓ like Megan Devine wrote the book, ⁓ It's that you're not okay. She was a licensed therapist ⁓ and she realized after her husband died that was not trained in grief. Daiana, LMHC: Mm. Mm-hmm. Mm. Heidi Dunstan: And when people said stupid things to her, she was like, I said that to people in therapy. Right? Cause you don't know until she didn't know until she didn't know. Right. And so sh ⁓ go if you're grieving, especially a significant loss, get a grief counselor, get a grief therapist, get a grief coach, get somebody who specializes in grief, because it does help dispel the crazy, because grief feels like you're going crazy. Daiana, LMHC: It does. ⁓ someone asked me how does this help that I'm ⁓ I'm grieving my dad, and how does it help being a therapist? Is that I don't feel crazy. I don't feel crazy because I understand I understand it, and it still takes effort. It takes effort to allow it, it takes effort to not judge yourself, And then you also ⁓ once you have this information, know what to seek. Right. That reminder of you have fingers, call somebody. That's what when you told me that in the pre-interview, I'm like, yeah, I do have fingers. ⁓ Heidi Dunstan: I find that like one on one counseling is helpful. ⁓ group counseling, like I did a ⁓ I was part of a w a young widows group. so was all of us who are in our thirties and forties. you know, sometimes going like if you're dealing with illness like ALS or cancer, ⁓ going through with people that are relatable ⁓ to you. S ⁓ it just does take it makes you that you you aren't Daiana, LMHC: Hm. Mm-hmm. Heidi Dunstan: alone in this, that there's other people that are navigating it. you know, 'cause we're just talking about the emotions and the physical stuff. Never mind all the legal stuff when there's death. ⁓ then all the dynamics with estates and all that other stuff that can add a whole nother layer of complexity, right? ⁓ I don't know about you guys in the US, but ⁓ Canada, the paperwork that we have to do for the government and for pensions and it's a lot. Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Heidi Dunstan: when you're already not at your best. Right? So, you know, know that there's a lot going on there. when is navigating grief, it isn't just the emotions, it's all the ⁓ the right? Like you think about somebody who maybe their person passed and they lived in an apartment and in that same month they have to pack up and move their house and find place for all that stuff. and go through it all and do the pa the paperwork and the taxes and all that other stuff while they still navigate grief and while they still live their life. It's a lot. And it's okay to say to somebody, I see that things are hard and that there's a lot going on right now. I don't want to place any expectations on you. I'd really like to find a way of to be able to be an ally and support you because you're important to me. Now some grievers are like, no, I gotta do it all by myself. other ones are like, I want none of it. I don't want to do any of it. Daiana, LMHC: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Well you said a grief has to be witnessed so you can't do it by yourself. Heidi Dunstan: Yeah. And that's that's one thing that I encourage grievers to do is is offer when help is offered, accept it. It isn't pity. A lot of a lot of grievers think, ⁓ they just pity me. No, they want to show up for you. This is called support. To allow y give yourself that grace. I mean, I just last not last weekend, the weekend before, I went down into South Carolina just to help a friend who needed help moving boxes. And I was like, I'm in the area. I'll I'd love to help move boxes. And guess what? She appreciated it. I can tell you the people that helped me pack and move. it took me a little while because you're so in the thick of all the ⁓ of everything. Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Heidi Dunstan: That it was like after I was like, holy crap, I couldn't have done that by myself. Like I that Mike was the heavy lifter. I was like, how would I move dressers and couches and all that by myself? ⁓ accept the help. People to be there for you, grievers, and know that ⁓ you that help. You know. And it be the little things. My neighbor was like, we we had communal garbage, because we lived in a a a neighborhood with communal garbage. Daiana, LMHC: Mm mm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Heidi Dunstan: And they were like, just leave the garbage on the doorstep when we walk by, we'll pick it up. It doesn't have to be big stuff. Could be Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Mm. Right. Sometimes you don't have to ask because the garbage is gonna be there. Right? So Heidi Dunstan: Exactly, right? Yeah. But it's like, yeah, just just be able to find little spaces where you get to be a constant for somebody. That they just know somebody's got their back, even if it's just the garbage or a big case of Kleenex or or whatever. But know that it's okay to say to your friend, I'm gonna be one of your long haul friends. I'm gonna be w you know, if you live far away, turn around and say, Hey, I I can't go to the funeral, but I'm gonna be one of your friends that's gonna be checking in with you ⁓ on a regular basis for a year and if you have a terrible memory or you're really busy just make notes for yourself in your calendar. Hey, reach out. Or if they come across your mind, them a message or call them. It can go such a long way just showing up 'cause it gets quiet and that quiet is deafening. Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Heidi, you I love everything about this conversation. You spoke on those who want to support, right? What to say, what not to say. we briefly talked about like what's going on for that person in the background, and then the griever's experience as well. And and I mean there there's like you said everyone has their own experience and but you touched on so many different parts. so yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We usually end this show with a living lost lesson that's tangible. You all I ⁓ you gave that and I'm sure I'm even gonna r listen to this episode again, ⁓ maybe I'll even make a list in the show notes ⁓ all of these Heidi Dunstan: It's big. It's a lot. Right? Tips. Daiana, LMHC: It's sometimes we just don't know the words, right? So you gave the words, you gave the script, and you're gonna make it your your own information about that journey of grief. Are there any last lessons experience that you want to share from your heart, from your own journey to leave with us? Heidi Dunstan: Just yeah. I always believe that we get to grieve with grace together. when we can do that, give ourselves grace and give others grace. You the legacy show up and the kin ⁓ the show up and it's a be grief is beautiful. People ⁓ when get to grieve with people together, it is beautiful 'cause it's love. And so just be graceful. And it's okay to apologize. It's okay to say I don't have the words. I love them where they're at. That's all they need. Cassandra, LMHC: I just ⁓ one more time before we go, Heidi. I just wanted to take this moment and thank you for sharing everything that you've shared with us today. makes me feel a little bit embarrassed because I know I've said some of these things to people, but I also know that there's always capacity to learn and grow, and I get to be someone else that can be on your team moving forward. Not yours Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Cassandra, LMHC: specifically, but like the queen too. ⁓ So ⁓ Daiana, LMHC: Yeah, yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Heidi Dunstan: Yeah yeah, yeah, I get it. Yeah. We all get to do better, that's all. Cassandra, LMHC: That's all we have to do. just as a reminder, this podcast for and entertainment purposes. While are therapists, we're not your therapist, so this not replace professional mental health care. But ⁓ if you feel like you would like to speak to someone, please reach out to a professional near And this has just been amazing. Daiana, LMHC: share this episode with absolutely everyone because we all need, we all need this. Thank you. Heidi Dunstan: Thanks, ladies.