Latest / Content, Briefly / Charlie Rhomberg on AI-native writing

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Charlie Rhomberg on AI-native writing · Content, Briefly

• 0:00
  [on-hold music] Hey, and thanks for tuning in to another episode of "Content Briefly." Today, we have Charlie Romberg on.
• 0:10
  He's an AI native content marketer who's been doing some really great work through the Superpath Marketplace. Charlie and I spoke a few weeks ago for the first time, and I found his story to be kind of fascinating.
• 0:19
  He got into content marketing right around the same time that ChatGPT came out, so this is all he knows.
• 0:26
  You know, he's not adapting to 10 years of doing it the quote-unquote "old-fashioned way" and trying to figure out how to use AI.
• 0:32
  Like, he's never done content without AI, and I found his perspective on it to be really interesting. Also, I've seen the results of his work, and I think it's really good. There's a lot to learn here.
• 0:41
  It's not just about, you know, AI disrupting the content marketing industry. It's much more about Charlie's perspective on how these tools make his writing better and his customers happier.
• 0:51
  So anyways, we talk all about that. Lots to like here. We'll make sure to leave a link to Charlie's LinkedIn if folks wanna connect with him, which I'd recommend they do.
• 0:58
  And we actually may be bringing Charlie in for a workshop for Superpath members as well in the near future so that he can actually show us some of this stuff over, you know, over the course of 30 or 45 minutes.
• 1:08
  So stay tuned for that. As always, I really enjoyed this episode, and I hope you do too. Take care. Hey, everybody. Jimmy from Superpath here today with fellow Coloradoan, Charlie Romberg, who's down in Boulder.
• 1:19
  And Charlie and I have gotten to know each other a bit through the Superpath Marketplace.
• 1:22
  I've been pretty impressed with some of the AI-assisted content work you've done and thought we'd have you on the show to talk about that. So w-we're gonna talk a lot about AI on this episode.
• 1:31
  But first, Charlie, would you mind introducing yourself? Tell us a little bit about h-how you got to where you are now and some of the work you're up to. Yes. Appreciate you having me on, Jimmy. Yeah, love Superpath.
• 1:39
  Love, love the podcast. So yeah, started out my career in finance. Graduated from USC with a finance degree. Ended up working at a, uh, large medical device, uh, maker for about three years in their finance department.
• 1:51
  Was actually in their rotational program, so saw a bunch of different areas of corporate finance, FP&A, treasury, business unit finance, you know, all that good stuff.
• 1:59
  So it was a great way to start my career, but kind of realized early on finance w-wasn't my path.
• 2:04
  You know, just wanted to be a little bit more, uh, you know, I was kind of spending all day in Excel and, and had this writing skill that I wanted to flex a little bit more.
• 2:11
  So I'd done a writing program in college, really enjoyed it, and was kind of thinking about for my next career step, like how could I leverage that skill while still kind of, you know, using some of my finance background and finance skills that I'd built up.
• 2:22
  So started poking around in some different options and found freelance writing as a cool option, especially kind of for that finance niche that I ended up building out.
• 2:29
  So yeah, have been doing, you know, the freelance writing thing for the last three or four years after starting my career in finance for three, four years.
• 2:36
  And yeah, I got lucky to where it's kind of been a, you know, pretty smooth process kind of in that career transition. And yeah, going well today. All right. Cool.
• 2:44
  So one quick question before we dive into kind of the, the how-tos of your work. Do you find that spending a day in a spreadsheet and writing are similar?
• 2:50
  Like, I find that getting lost in a spreadsheet is actually one of my favorite things to do, partially because it feels like writing.
• 2:56
  You know, you have this sort of like unmanageable amount of information, and you're trying to figure out how to make sense of it. I feel like writing's kind of the same thing. Yeah.
• 3:04
  I, I would say it depends on [chuckles] your spreadsheet task. Like, I, I still-- I really like, you know, building a model. Like, that, that kind of stuff is fun.
• 3:11
  If you're trying to find, like, some error of, like, why is this formula not tying out? Like, that, that can be maddening if you're trying to, you know, go through data line by line to, to see what the error is.
• 3:19
  But I, I agree. Build- building models is fun. Yeah. And si-similar to writing in a lot of ways. Yeah. I guess in corporate finance you're probably using spreadsheets at a much larger scale than I am.
• 3:27
  [chuckles] So we spoke a few weeks ago, and one of the things you said to me that, that really stood out was that you basically got into content marketing around the time that ChatGPT came out.
• 3:36
  It's like you didn't have this, like, 10-year, you know, track record in-- as a content marketer, and then you had to figure out how to use AI. Like, you just started it this way.
• 3:45
  [chuckles] Which, like, to someone my age, it's like, whoa, I feel so old all of a sudden. You know what I mean? Like, I did this for, like, 15 years before [chuckles] I'd ever heard of AI.
• 3:54
  Like, as you're first getting into content creation, like, are you using AI on day one? Y-you know, like, kinda like walk me through, like, the first article you write and the role that AI plays in it. Yeah.
• 4:06
  So I'm trying to think back to, like, specific timelines here. So I started my freelance writing thing in, I think it was spring of 2021, and then I think ChatGPT came out, like, November of that year.
• 4:15
  So it wasn't literally kind of right off the bat, and it was pr-pretty damn close to, you know, as soon as I started doing this.
• 4:21
  But had kinda gotten my feet wet with just, you know, how content marketing works and the freelance writing space for, you know, six to eight months before, you know, all of a sudden ChatGPT explodes on the scene.
• 4:30
  So the good thing is I hadn't really developed too many good or bad habits really at all at that point. Like, I was still just kind of in the e-exploration stage.
• 4:37
  And I think like everybody when, when ChatGPT came out, it was just, you know, pure curiosity. Like, what can this thing do?
• 4:42
  You know, uh, as for me, it was like, okay, this new venture that I'm doing, you know, how can I apply this to, to my writing? And is it good? What can it do? What can't it do?
• 4:50
  And, you know, I think as we all saw, it had severe limitations obviously.
• 4:54
  But at the same time, you know, it was an, an incredible new tool that everybody was just kind of figuring out how they could apply it to their own workflows.
• 5:01
  So yeah, I immediately kind of dove right in, started seeing where I could apply it to my work at the time.
• 5:06
  And, you know, for-- really since November '21, I've just been completely fascinated with these LLMs, how they work, you know, trying different ways to apply them to my process and kind of refining and tweaking it over time.
• 5:17
  But yeah, it's, it was pretty much immediately off the bat, you know, u-using it in, in my work as a freelance writer. Do you pitch yourself today as an AI writer?
• 5:26
  And related to that, like, what expectation do you set with your customers? Do they want you to use AI as a way to speed things up or maybe save them money? Do they not want you to a-use AI?
• 5:36
  Like, I'm sort of curious, like, what the conversation is with your customers and if they're, like, all about this or, like, kind of indifferent. Yeah. So it, it really varies across the board.
• 5:43
  So there are some that, that really don't care, that are just, you know, if, if it comes out sounding good and I can't, you know, as a reader tell if it came out AI or not, like, I don't really care how you got there.
• 5:52
  Others are a little bit more hesitant and kind of just want, you know, purely human written stuff. They don't want kind of any AI, you know, tainting the writing or whatever that means.So it, it really is a spectrum.
• 6:03
  It is interesting, kind of the last couple years, I feel like I've seen that line get a little bit fuzzier between, you know, AI content, human written content.
• 6:10
  It's really-- That's starting to become more of a muddy gray area. Yeah.
• 6:14
  And that's-- it's partially because, you know, these tools are getting a lot better, and I think people are figuring out better ways to integrate it into their workflows.
• 6:21
  So it is, it's definitely getting fuzzier over time. Yeah. I see that too. Like when it-- when ChatGPT came out, which I, I think was fall 2022, I think- Okay...
• 6:29
  that, that the immediate reaction was people just creating entire articles with one prompt, you know? And I feel like we're s- kind of still undoing that a little bit, you know. Yeah.
• 6:40
  Like, I think most folks are using AI in some capacity, and there's probably two camps at least that I've kind of identified so far. One is the brainstorming camp.
• 6:51
  You know, it's like they're willing to use AI to help with an outline, to brainstorm title ideas or whatever.
• 6:56
  And then there's the other camp, which is more sophisticated, which is building custom GPTs or projects if you're using Claude, training on a bunch of information, style guides, previous writing, call transcripts, et cetera, and using that as a way to actually write better content.
• 7:14
  I'm assuming you fall into the latter camp, where you're like kinda training up AI based on customer needs, brand, style, et cetera, as a means to get a better piece out of it at the end. Yeah.
• 7:25
  Actually, I, I kinda like using it both ways. And again, it depends on the client, it depends on kind of what the assignment is. I think it's awesome as a brainstorming tool.
• 7:32
  I mean, even outside of work, you know, if there's just some kind of problem you're trying to figure out, or it's just, it's really nice to kinda have like a sparring partner as, you know, whether it, whether you wanna try to find stuff, third-party sources on the internet or, you know, just kind of go back and forth with ideas.
• 7:46
  Like, it can be really helpful that way.
• 7:48
  But as far as my writing process, like I think I was telling Jimmy, my-- the analogy I would use is kind of like sculpting marble almost, where, like you said, you know, if you put in a prompt, write me a blog on XYZ, what, what you're gonna get out is maybe, you know, 60, 65, if you're lucky, 70% of the way to like a actual good finished blog post.
• 8:07
  So from there, it's really kind of figuring out where is the human intervention needed to get this thing into a more polished piece.
• 8:14
  And a- again, all this varies depending on assignment, depending on the kind of the subject matter, but I think it was Tim Metz of Animalz had a good article about how an LLM is structured.
• 8:22
  It's just predicting next words in a sentence, so it's not really having original thought. It's not thinking, you know, conceptually.
• 8:28
  It's just, what is the next word in the sentence in my response to get what the user's going for? So you're, you're not gonna get a whole lot of original thought that way.
• 8:36
  So a lot of the human piece is kind of thinking about what's the original thought I wanna get across for this piece, or what, what's the unique angle that somebody's gonna find interesting?
• 8:44
  And so o-once you kinda have that, you can either ask the AI to help you make an outline or make the outline yourself, and from there you kinda get your block of marble that you can kinda start whittling down into something that's good.
• 8:54
  So, you know, what I'll usually do is kind of have an outline. I'll just plug it into an AI tool and be like, "Hey, go nuts with this," you know, "Write the blog post."
• 9:02
  Again, what comes out maybe 60, 65% of the way there. Okay, so now we have something to work with. So let's say there's one section I kinda wanna dive into the, you know, first body first or whatever.
• 9:12
  So we take that and say, okay, it's a little dry. You know, maybe it's not quite emphasizing this point that I wanna make strong enough.
• 9:18
  So I'll maybe rewrite part of it or maybe give some feedback in my next prompt and say, "Hey, let's rewrite this to, you know, emphasize this point and take this existing text now that I've edited a little bit."
• 9:28
  So usually what you'll get out from that is maybe 70, 75% of the way there.
• 9:31
  And then you just continue iterating and iterating until you get, you know, 90, 95, and then maybe a little bit more human touch to finish it off.
• 9:38
  I'm just curious, like up until that point, you're still in ChatGPT or Claude. Like you have not yet taken the article out, put it in a Google Doc or some other writing tool to start making manual edits to it. No.
• 9:52
  So usually what I'll do is I'll just take that first kind of corpus that I get after the initial outline. I'll throw that into a Word doc just to kinda have it there. Gotcha.
• 10:01
  And, you know, kind of be able to look at it and say, okay, maybe this paragraph's what I wanna attack first.
• 10:05
  'Cause, you know, not to get too into the weeds, but like intro and conclusions, AI really doesn't get how to make those snappy or kind of, you know, get it right.
• 10:13
  I feel like those are where human intervention is required most. So I'll usually attack like a body paragraph first and say, "Hey, let's plug this back in." You know, "Here's the text you gave to me.
• 10:22
  This is," you know, "these are the three things I want you to fix about it," and maybe I'll rewrite, you know, a sentence or two for kinda for what I want it to sound like.
• 10:29
  And then from there, it's kind of an iterative process where, you know, put it back in the doc, put it back in AI, and just kind of continue that iterative process. Got it.
• 10:36
  How-- Do you use ChatGPT or Claude or other tools? Like do you have some preferences in the tools that you use to do this? Yeah. So a lot of thoughts on tools. So it really depends.
• 10:45
  Like it's interesting to, you know, now having been, what? Three, three years since these tools have been out, it's interesting to kinda see how some get better over time, some kind of lap others.
• 10:54
  So, you know, initially it was obviously ChatGPT was kind of the first big one, so I think it was, you know, six months to a year I was kind of using that exclusively.
• 11:02
  And then all of a sudden, you know, here's Google Gemini comes out of nowhere and, you know, that's surprisingly good at writing. It's like, hey, it's a little bit less dry than ChatGPT, a little more engaging.
• 11:11
  So I, I switch to that, kinda lean on that for the most part for a couple months. And then all of a sudden, GPT-4 is out, and hey, that's actually way better at writing. It can browse the web. It can read attachments.
• 11:20
  So now I'm back into ChatGPT, kinda using, you know, ChatGPT and Gemini, but I'm really just always trying to stay abreast of like what new tools are coming out.
• 11:28
  You know, like when you get like a DeepSeek out of nowhere last week, it's like, hey, let's go play around, see what this can do, and lo and behold, it's really freaking good at writing [chuckles] actually.
• 11:37
  It's really, it's kind of a mix. I'm always just trying to experiment with what's new and yeah, I don't lean on any one tool specifically. I kinda like to bounce around based on what each is good at, so. Got it.
• 11:46
  Do you have, uh, like a list of prompts that you rely on or any other like templated workflows that make it easier to get from start to finish for each article? So I, I don't really have like a list of pro...
• 11:58
  It's more kinda in my head, like the prompts that I know work pretty well. So I'm not really like copying and pasting prompts for the most part.
• 12:05
  It's more kinda just knowledge of like, hey, write a long and detailed blog post for XYZ. Make sure it's, you know, an engaging tone, blah, blah, blah. So it's a little bit more kind of art than science there.
• 12:15
  Yeah.Got it. That makes sense. Oh, one other question I want to ask you about tools. Are there any kind of related tools? Like Lex is one that I use for a lot of writing. I love it.
• 12:22
  Are there any that you use that are kind of like assisted by AI, but not generative tools? Yeah, so I've tried out Lex, actually, some similar tools.
• 12:30
  You know, I honestly probably haven't put enough time into them to really have a good judgment, but, you know, maybe it's just because I started using these chat-based tools right off the bat.
• 12:38
  But I kinda like just the, the simplicity of a chat window. You know, just give me a corpus of text. I can go in, kind of manipulate it myself, feed it back in.
• 12:46
  I just kind of like that, that process versus actually, you know, clicking on like a sentence within the, the text and saying, "Hey, rewrite this specifically." It just kind of doesn't fit with my workflow.
• 12:56
  But that's not to say they're not useful or that, you know, maybe I won't use them in the future. It's just kind of the-- I kind of have my process dialed in with the, with the chat-based tools. Got it. Got it.
• 13:04
  Do you charge customers differently if you're using AI or not? And if you do- Yes. Okay, you do. And then how much time do you save? And also-- Sorry, this is a whole bunch of questions at once.
• 13:15
  Do you also feel that the end products are more or less the same, or is one better than the other? Yeah, let's see. Okay, we'll tackle each of those, each of those individually.
• 13:24
  So in terms of time savings, again, it really, it kind of depends on the assignment.
• 13:29
  Like, if I get an outline from a customer, like that's really a huge step in terms of being able to get to the finish line, because like I said, a lot of the human, you know, input is kind of the ideation and coming up with the structure you want.
• 13:40
  So if I get an outline from a client, I'm pretty much, you know, halfway there.
• 13:44
  And if it is a client that's okay with AI assistance, from there, I would say anywhere from like five to 10 hours to get to like a final product, depending on how long it is and, you know, how much external research you need.
• 13:56
  Sometimes, yeah, more on the five, more on the 10.
• 13:58
  But, so yeah, in terms of charging, in terms of rates, I think there's, you know, as kind of the freelance community has seen, there is kind of just a natural downward pressure on rates with these AI tools.
• 14:08
  And kind of the way that I've thought about my own business is, you know, being able to kind of fight that by increasing your volume with AI, so being able to just kind of have more output at potentially a lower rate.
• 14:19
  And it's not true of all clients. Like some, you know, especially like with my finance background, like I'm able to kind of leverage that niche for higher rates in the finance space.
• 14:26
  Uh, but yeah, generally, I kind of think about, you know, how can I increase my output by using these tools better to offset some of the, the downward rate pressure. Yeah, that makes sense.
• 14:36
  It's interesting that an AI-assisted article takes five to 10 hours.
• 14:41
  I mean, it's interesting in the sense that it doesn't take 20 minutes, [laughs] you know, which I think is-- Like I, I sense that some content teams are trying to figure out, "How can we get more content for a lot less?"
• 14:54
  Like, like- Mm-hmm... instead of paying 800 bucks an article, we wanna pay 50, [laughs] you know? And I feel like that's not happening, not yet, not in any sense of qual- like in any quality way, you know? Exactly.
• 15:05
  Qu-quality is the keyword, where it's like you can get there in 20 minutes, and it can maybe be readable and fine, but it's probably not gonna have really any original insights, probably gonna read pretty dry.
• 15:15
  It's just not gonna be high quality. And I think most people that, that watch this podcast are probably familiar with that Google algorithm leak that happened. I think that was, yeah, sometime last year.
• 15:24
  Do, do you remember when that happened? Yeah. Oh, yeah, last year for sure. Yeah. So like, I mean, these search engines, you know, they're becoming very adept at kind of picking out AI content.
• 15:34
  As you know, the internet is just flooded with stuff that came, you know, right out of these tools.
• 15:38
  So I, I kinda think that it's actually almost more important to kind of err on the quality side of things because, you know, you're just gonna get lost in a sea of kind of AI generated junk if you really try to get cute with it and do something in 20 minutes.
• 15:50
  So that, that's my take. Do you feel the pain of this at all?
• 15:53
  [laughs] And what I mean by that is like for folks who spent 10 years building a freelance career with AI really probably not on their radar at all, and then all this happens over the past couple of years where it's like kinda it's changed so much.
• 16:08
  Y-You know? I don't think it's diminished the value of freelancers. Like freelancers are still such an important part of the content marketing industry. But it does create the downward pressure that you mentioned.
• 16:18
  It does kind of raise questions around, like, does a human have to do this? Like, can we save money? Like, can we increase output without spending more? These types of things.
• 16:27
  And I feel like it's been, for folks who are concerned about their careers longer term, has caused some anguish. Do you feel that?
• 16:33
  Or having come into this kind of close to the time that these AI tools came out, that this is just how it is. Yeah, no, I mean, I, I don't wanna sound, you know, arrogant or, you know...
• 16:42
  I, I totally feel bad for people that have poured, you know, decades into this and kind of feeling this disruption out of nowhere.
• 16:47
  But I think it's actually been a benefit to my career thus far just because, you know, having, just using these tools for like hours a day for, you know, multiple years- Yeah...
• 16:55
  like I feel like I'm kind of on the cutting edge of how to use them and what they're good at, what they aren't good at.
• 17:00
  So I, I think I've been able to offset some of that rate pressure by increasing my output and making it still high quality in less time by being able to probably more than offset some of that rate pressure.
• 17:11
  And I think it, you know, it depends on your niche too. Like I think I'm lucky to kind of have the, you know, finance software niche, which is, there's a lot of demand for and, you know, can command decent rates.
• 17:20
  So at least for me, yeah, it's been okay so far.
• 17:23
  Again, the way I think about kind of future-proofing myself is just kind of staying on the cutting edge of these tools, making sure, you know, even if a client could maybe learn it themselves, it's like, "Hey, this guy already knows how to do it.
• 17:33
  I'll just pay him to do it instead of, you know, going through the effort to learn it myself." So that, that's kind of how I think about it for, for me. Yeah. No, it makes sense. It's so interesting.
• 17:40
  One other thing, going back a little bit, that I meant to ask you about was training. How much time do you spend training LLMs on a specific customer's voice tone, brand, subject matter, et cetera, to get good results?
• 17:52
  Yeah, it's interesting. I've, I've had kind of mixed results with trained GPTs, actually.
• 17:56
  So there, there are some clients where it's, you know, it's nice where, again, if they're okay with AI assistance, you can plug in their style guide, maybe some of their messaging.
• 18:04
  Obviously, everything, you know, needs to be public. You don't wanna share any proprietary information with these tools. And, you know, some example blogs they say are really good.
• 18:11
  And then sometimes the g- the GPT will be trained and get the, the style and tone right away.
• 18:15
  Sometimes it just doesn't quite get it or isn't even as good as just a generic chat where you feed in, you know, maybe three blogs as a style and tone example, and then kind of just run from there and iterate.Just to, yeah, not to veer too off course, but I think the, the theme kind of for me with these tools is, like, iterating is, is the way to do it.
• 18:31
  So- Yeah... I know some people like to, like l- these super long prompts where they kind of fit everything [chuckles] in at once.
• 18:37
  Like, I prefer much more to kind of, you know, a cou-couple quick prompts, see what it does, you know, iterate and accordingly. I find they work best that way.
• 18:45
  So yeah, in terms of training, I think that errs more on kind of the upfront side of things, where it's putting in all, as much information as you can to try to, you know, make sure it's good for forever, basically.
• 18:55
  Whereas I, I kinda like to say, "Okay, hey, that, what you outputted there, that tone is a little too dry. Maybe make it a little more engaging here, but we..."
• 19:02
  And then maybe it'll come out and be a little too casual and say, "Hey, now actually we need it a little more professional," and kind of gauge it and, and tweak it that way.
• 19:08
  So I, I, I tend to lean more on kind of the, the latter side of things. Got it. Got it. Are you using OpenAI or Gemini APIs, or are you exclusively using the chat interface? Ju-just the chat interface, yeah.
• 19:20
  Have you messed around with APIs at all? Oh, not really, actually, no. And also, do you hit usage limits? [chuckles] Well, so I, I pay for the premium ChatGPT, so I, I'm able to bypass that.
• 19:28
  Um, I, I did used to hit the usage limits early on, which was super frustrating. But, uh, yeah, that's actually what got me to Gemini, is I kept hitting my usage limit in ChatGPT. Um- [laughs]...
• 19:37
  but yeah, don't, don't have to worry about that now. Nice. And then are you using AI for other parts of your freelance business, like sending invoices, contracts, stuff like that? Not really.
• 19:46
  I am super intrigued by these AI agents that are-- I feel like '25 is gonna be- Yeah... we're gonna see a lot more of those coming out. So I think, yeah, invoicing.
• 19:53
  I mean, for me, like it's, you know, I, I've even thought about do I hire somebody to help with some of the admin stuff?
• 19:58
  But, you know, it takes me maybe like a couple hours each month to do, you know, all, basically all the admin work my business requires. So it ha-hasn't been super necessary.
• 20:07
  So yeah, pr-pretty much I would say ninety-five percent of my AI use is, is kind of writing help. Got it. Got it. That makes sense.
• 20:12
  Yeah, I've been experimenting with a lot of, like, admin type work using Claude specifically, like, it's the, my tool of choice right now, and it's pretty amazing for, like, spinning up contracts is, is a good one.
• 20:23
  I recently bought out my business partner. Claude was extremely useful [chuckles] as part of that, as, as part of, like, the drafting of contracts and some of the financial docs we had to draw up.
• 20:33
  Actually, the CPA told me to use Claude, which I was sort of surprised by. [chuckles] He was like, "Yeah, yeah, I could charge you a ton, but just use Claude." [laughs] Yeah.
• 20:42
  One thing I have done is, like, not related to the business at all, but, like, for, like, a lease I signed, like, I fed that into ChatGPT and was like, "Hey, can you tell me if I can, you know, do XYZ with the land," whatever.
• 20:52
  And it's helpful with that, with like, yeah, contracts and stuff so. Oh, for sure. I actually recently, I had a question about my tax return last year. I uploaded the tax return, which maybe you shouldn't do.
• 21:00
  Uh, maybe that's not a good idea, but it was really helpful. Like, I answered my question very quickly. It would've taken me a long time to do it myself.
• 21:07
  In your work, do you come across folks who do things differently than you? Meaning kind of do things the, the quote-unquote "old-fashioned way."
• 21:13
  And I'm just sort of curious, like, what your perspective is on the folks that you work with and the way that they go about their work.
• 21:18
  Do you observe it as like, wow, this is really inefficient, or is it [chuckles] just like a different way to approach it? Yeah. I really feel like it depends on kind of the type of content you're doing.
• 21:27
  You know, I think if it's really more marketing focused, if you're not using AI tools at all at any part of the process, I, I think you are probably kind of falling behind and, you know, not being as efficient as possible.
• 21:37
  Now, if you're doing, like, some kind of opinion piece or creative writing or, you know, there's all kinds of other things where I think human-only still is super valuable and will have a place.
• 21:47
  But, you know, if you're in the product marketing or content marketing side of things, you know, even if you're writing everything human only, at least try to use AI to help you brainstorm or research to help you save some time.
• 21:58
  I, I think if you're purely kind of the, you know, the Luddite view of I'm doing it, you know, human only and I don't wanna touch these things, I think, yeah, I, I would think you're probably falling behind. Got it.
• 22:07
  Makes sense. Charlie, thanks so much for coming on. Really interesting. Honestly, it hadn't really occurred to me that there were people who are AI native content marketers, you know?
• 22:16
  But obviously it makes sense, and I would imagine there'll be more and more folks like you who get into this world with this as the expectation, not something to adapt to. So appreciate you coming on.
• 22:26
  Is there anywhere we can direct folks to connect with you? LinkedIn, personal website, or anywhere else? Yeah. Well, LinkedIn's definitely the best place to reach me.
• 22:33
  Yeah, I think, you know, just Charlie Ronberg on LinkedIn. Yeah, always happy to chat if, you know, if a potential client or other freelancers. Always looking to connect with people in the space, so reach out to me.
• 22:41
  Cool. Thanks, Charlie. We'll put a link to your LinkedIn in the show notes, and we'll talk to you again soon. Take care. Awesome. Thanks, Jimmy. Take care. [outro music]