Latest / It’s All Your Fault: High Conflict People / Defusing Workplace Drama: Expert Advice for Managing High Conflict Personalities
Transcript
- Speaker 1 (00:05): Welcome to, it's All Your Fault On True Story fm, the one and only podcast dedicated to helping you identify and influence the most challenging human interactions, those involving patterns of high conflict behavior. I'm Megan Hunter and I'm here today with my co-host, bill Eddie. Hi everybody and our special guest, Sherilyn Knapp. Bill and I are the co-founders of the High Conflict Institute in San Diego, California where we focus on training, consulting and educational programs and methods all to do with high conflict. In today's episode, we are thrilled to be joined by one of our wonderful trainer speakers. She Knapp. She is a lawyer, a conflict resolution consultant, and a mediator and facilitator. She's a very, very busy person. Also does leads our new ways for work training and we're going to talk about that today a bit. So Sherilyn will help us today answer listener questions that you've all submitted related to high conflict stuff at work, and she'll announce a new offering we have coming soon at HCI as well. But first, a couple of notes. Send your high conflict related questions to podcast@highconflictinstitute.com or through our website@highconflictinstitute.com slash podcast where you'll also find all the show notes and links. Speaker 2 (01:34): Alright? Speaker 1 (01:34): All right. Hi Bill. Hi Sherilyn. It's really great to have you back and it's been a while since we've had you on the podcast, so thank you. Sherilyn, what have you been up to? Speaker 3 (01:44): Hi Megan. Hi Bill. Thank you very much for having me. It's lovely to be back on. It's all your fault. I'm a big fan of the podcast and an avid listener and I also promote it all of the time when I do my work. I say Speaker 1 (01:58): This Speaker 3 (01:59): Sounds like something that you might benefit from listening to, especially folks who maybe joined the podcast later on to go back and listen to those first few episodes because such a great primer about this whole topic that we're talking about. What I've been up to, well, I live in Canada, in Western Canada and my work there, I've been speaking at conferences, I've been delivering trainings, I've been doing workplace investigations about when there's allegations of bullying or harassing or discriminatory behavior. I've been doing workplace mediations, helping people who are having a hard time talking to each other and I do coaching to help people change their behavior so that they can hopefully keep their jobs. So lots of things on the go and some of my favorite work is my high Conflict Institute work. Speaker 1 (02:54): Wonderful. Well, we of course love having you do work with us, so thank you for always being willing and on board and helping a lot of people it sounds like in Canada and elsewhere. So let's get started with today. We're going to take some questions from listeners and thank you listeners for sending these in. These are always fantastic and we're hearing a lot of feedback that people enjoy these. So here's the first one. I enjoy your podcast so much and have found it super helpful as have some friends that I've shared it with. Thank you for sharing that with us. It makes us feel good. I just became a supervisor in a small office at a large public university. Two of my employees are being bullied by a woman in another office in our college who has to approve their fiscal paperwork submissions before they go up to the main campus. Speaker 1 (03:43): Instead of emailing them the nitpicky corrections that she demands, she phones them and then comes to our office if they don't answer. In the short time I've been there, she only came once when she could see on my calendar that I would be in a meeting. There have been attempts to stop her before my arrival to no avail. I reached out to employee relations and they wanted me to make the woman's supervisor speak to her, which I have no authority to do. Do you have suggestions on how I can protect my people? Is there something I could say to the woman herself that might help and not make things worse? Okay, so Sherilyn, is this something you hear about frequently or is this unusual? Speaker 3 (04:27): It's so interesting because I do work with different types of employee groups and sometimes it's working with the groups around the clients they serve. So this is an example of where there's interactions between two departments in the college and it's tricky, right? Because the other person who's presenting with some problematic behavior is supervised by someone else, but having an impact on this listener's team. And it's so interesting because I think I've written a scenario for one of my training sessions that sounds just like this one. So I would say it is quite usual that maybe we've got conduct by somebody else that's impacting our team and so what do we do? So I certainly have thoughts about how to support the team and also maybe how to communicate with the other employee. Speaker 1 (05:26): Do you have suggestions? This is the listener question. Do you have suggestions on how I can protect my people? So let's start with you Sherilyn, and then we'll kick it to Bill next. Speaker 3 (05:36): I mean how to protect the team or I might frame that differently. How to support, how to support my people. So one would be to make sure that everybody's got skills for dealing with whether it's a difficult customer or a difficult coworker in a different department. If you sort of think of those people as internal customers or internal stakeholders, but to make sure that everybody's equipped with when someone comes marching into your office or is sending nitpicky emails. Well that tells me that if it's in person, starting with your statement to state something like I can see that you're concerned and upset with something that has happened in my office and I want to say that I appreciate you bringing this to my attention. That kind of statement would help calm the upset person and connect with them and then to move to, okay, so then let's discuss ways that we can address this, which gets into in the cars method for analyzing options, just to move from an ear statement into let's think about breaking down some options for how to address this person's concerns as opposed to getting into a toe to toe debate over whether it was right for them to come to the office or not and that kind of thing. Speaker 4 (06:59): My thoughts would be very much to agree with you. I was thinking about that is everybody on your team should be trained in your statements to help calm other people and then to be able to say, let's look at our options here. Let's analyze what we can do. It may be beneficial for the team leader and the staff to meet together with this person and say, now this is important and so I want to make sure we've got it figured out what to do because this seems like an important step in the workplace process. So I think some kind of meeting like that might do two things. One is it kind of puts the spotlight on the person so they're going to be behave well and also gets looking at what are some solutions. My inclination at that point would be see how it goes and then if it keeps being a problem, then start talking about setting limits and what the consequences would be if this keeps happening. Talking to someone higher up, and even though they said that person doesn't, a person above the problematic person that doesn't have authority over them, somebody has authority over them and I think it might be beneficial to, if necessary talk to that person, but not at this stage. I think this is the early stage and see if you can solve it with your statements and analyzing options. Speaker 3 (08:36): A second approach then in terms of thinking about do you need to take it next level? And I'm seeing the advice from employee relations, which was to get the woman's supervisor to talk to her and maybe instead it looks like a meeting between the two supervisors, which is framed around, Hey, I want to make sure that our two teams are working effectively together and I know that sometimes they interact for their work. So hey fellow supervisor, could we sit down and have a meeting to talk about ways that our teams work together? And then maybe we draw our teams in together and make sure that those communication lines are happening effectively. And then we've got parameters around how do you provide feedback? For instance, when forms aren't filled out appropriately or when the submission of certain information isn't done correctly, how does that feedback get given and do that all within the context of understand that people are upset here so they're reacting and that's making people's days at work not very nice. Speaker 1 (09:38): Yeah. So I want to circle back to something you said at the very beginning, Sherilyn, and it's actually a question for you, bill is Sherilyn mentioned that when that employee comes in and one of your primary goals is to connect with them and connect using an ear statement. So for our listeners who don't know what an ear statement is, let's talk about that for a minute and then also talk about why it's so important to connect. Why is that it's the first in our cars method, right? Connecting, analyzing, responding and setting limits. So C for connecting, why is that so important? Well, Speaker 4 (10:13): The first thing is ear statements include something that shows empathy and or attention and or respect. So empathy, I can understand that there's some frustration going on here for you or I can see your disappointment or irritation with someone or whatever it is, just putting kind of a name on their experience, but just not opening it up, just saying, I can see that and I can see how important this is. So that's respect I can see or I can respect how important this is to you and therefore to our whole organization. Tell me a little more. I want to understand. So that's a tension. So empathy, attention and respect tends to calm people because they feel like now you're not on opposite teams, you're on the same team. And if you can calm the person, then they can think better. And so they're not in a defensive position, but now they're in a thoughtful position. Speaker 4 (11:18): You can look at options as Charlyn said. And so let's analyze what some of our options are here. I can see it's frustrating for you and if you're having a group meeting, I can see it's frustrating for you too to the other people. And then let's analyze some options here because there's always more than one solution to a problem. And let's see what we can find, what we can develop or brainstorm. I think that's a big part of your statements is first you calm people enough so they can move into a problem solving rather than just staying in a defensive mode. Speaker 1 (11:57): Nice. So let's talk now about the second part of this listener's question. Is there something I could say to the woman herself that might help and not make things worse? Speaker 3 (12:07): I think along the lines of what we've talked about, if there was an interaction where the employee presented herself and that the way of interacting with that person would be how we've been describing, I think calling her up out of the blue and saying, you came to my office and that wasn't appropriate, is bound to inflame the situation and the person is likely to feel targeted and might even make a complaint under the university's respectful workplace policy against the person. But I can understand the impulse to want to try and talk and reason with the person to say things like When you come to my office and make demands of my staff, it's very upsetting to them. But that would be an example of trying to lead someone to insight. And one of the things we know about people who may have high conflict personality traits is that insight doesn't come for them. Speaker 3 (13:13): They hear those as accusations, they hear that as blaming and targeting and they don't actually gain the insight that we want them to gain. And so my thought on this is that in the moment if there is an interaction happening that that's a wonderful opportunity to use your statements like Bill and I have been describing to say you're listening to the person to connect with them and then ideally get them into a thinking stage to think about options for making sure that everybody can do their jobs well as opposed to getting into a confrontation over the person's inappropriate conduct. Speaker 1 (13:53): Well thank you Sherilyn. I think that's valuable information. So let's move on to listener question two. I absolutely love your podcast and have listened to every episode multiple times. Well thank you. So my question is I think there is a misconception that a high conflict person is someone who yells and argues, but I get the idea after listening to your content that this isn't necessarily the case and you discuss how high conflict people may present and not normally yell and scream and argue. And I know this is something that's coming up a lot in my trainings because I do show some videos that show a lot of screaming and yelling and when you hear the terminology high conflict, it sort of denotes a lot of loudness and angst and screaming and yelling, but it isn't always the case. And I think maybe at home more than in the workplace, you might experience the louder high conflict, but in the workplace it's probably more muted. So would that be your experience, Speaker 3 (14:59): Sherilyn? I appreciate the question and I think it shows some helpful insight into the different ways we get reactive as people when we're reactive. And if you think about the classic amygdala response of fight, flight or freeze, we know what it looks like when someone's in fight mode. They may be loud and yelly and do outbursts and that kind of thing, but what does it look like when it's more like freeze or flight? I think in workplaces, I mean there are certainly outbursts at work, but people also do have an understanding about a need to engage somewhat professionally. And so you might be more likely to see a shutdown mode where somebody shuts down. So one, it can look like someone clicking off a meeting if it's a virtual meeting, suddenly they're gone or they may refuse to go cameras on in their meetings. Another way it shows up might be that they're there but they basically don't engage. And so that would be a way of, I mean it's a form of freeze or light where you're physically present, but mentally you've left the building. So important for us to notice when someone seems to be shutting down. And so that also might look like an interaction where a person is giving one word answers and the person can't really get them talking. Speaker 1 (16:34): And the other thing that Speaker 3 (16:35): Sometimes happens is they may be quiet in the moment and then comes the eight page email written at nighttime when the person went home and was very upset and they weren't able to regulate their own emotions and then they started writing and then the complaint came and that's in the email inbox the next morning. So those are some different ways that I see the quieter fight or flight reaction as opposed to the fight one in workplaces. Speaker 1 (17:04): Right, right. Now, bill, in addition to the fight or flight, what else do you see? And I think of someone who came to me recently about a workplace issue and she said, look, I come home at night and I just feel dead. I don't even feel alive anymore. And it's not that I'm hearing having someone yelling at me at work all day, but there's one individual who's just passive aggressive and always making digs and blames. So what do we look at in relation to that? Speaker 4 (17:34): Yeah, passive aggressive is what I was thinking of. And what's important for people to realize is passive aggressive is really aggressive in disguise because it's out to, I think, dominate or harm somebody, but it's done in a way that's deniable. And so where's my stapler? And well, they've hidden it, but they go, oh, I don't know, boy, that's too bad. You can't keep track of your own stuff and they hit it or the nasty rumors on the internet or saying things about you that are vague and they can deny, oh no, I just want people to know the truth about you. Speaker 4 (18:22): So I think going behind people's backs, going to other people, spreading rumors, hiding equipment, all of that stuff. But part of it too may be pretending to be friendly and kind and oh, I would never do such a thing even though they just did it. We think of high conflict people as generally four characteristics preoccupation with blaming others and you don't have to yell to do that. You can do that very quietly, a lot of all or nothing thinking unmanaged emotions, but it may not show, we think the unmanaged emotions are driving a lot of their behavior, but you may not see on the surface that inside they're really simmering and of course extreme behavior and that's where you get the workplace sabotage, the passive aggressive, the spreading rumors, et cetera. None of that requires people being loud, although a lot of high conflict people do become loud, but they may have a lot of time in between being loud that they can still be just as difficult. Speaker 1 (19:36): So realistically then, how does this person handle it? So you're that person who has a coworker who's passive aggressive let's say, and they're kind of throwing you under the bus or making these little jabs and you're coming home every night feeling dead and you've, you've tried all the skills, you're using your statements, you're connecting, you are trying to keep yourself from exploding outwardly. And now you've gone to talk to your supervisor and you're just running into a wall with that and you're getting nowhere and they refer you to hr. And HR wants to open investigation perhaps, or doesn't do anything at all depending on the company or the size of the company or the workload. What's an employee to do? Speaker 3 (20:22): My heart goes out to people who are in that kind of situation. It can be very difficult when a person can see the problematic behavior and maybe the systems in the workplace don't acknowledge that kind of thing. I think we're talking more about the idea of microaggressions and the importance of realizing that death by a thousand cuts really is a thing that it can be very impactful to be Speaker 1 (20:51): Slighted Speaker 3 (20:51): And ignored and sabotaged in these quiet ways can have a tremendous impact. And so when people are learning the skills and trying to do all the things and it's not getting them anywhere, they may really have to think about their own choices and it's not a nice way to have to go, but people may have to think about their own choices about where they want to be. Is this somewhere that they can work and feel like they're okay? Or do they need to be looking at a different department or a different employer altogether? Speaker 4 (21:25): Yeah, I was thinking that exactly. And just by making a list of all my choices, I could leave, I could transfer, I could quit tomorrow, I could hold out for a year while I looked somewhere else, I could try your statements with this person. So I think in many ways you're right, it's looking at your personal alternatives that really may empower the person you don't feel as alone that, Hey, I've got choices here. And finding somebody you can talk to, even if it's a roommate or somebody, the feeling of being alone with these problems is often the worst part of it. And when you go, yeah, there's some bullies everywhere and there's different ways to deal with them and I can find a way around this and look at my options and I think that's the key. So I just really, really reinforce what you're saying, Cheryl. Speaker 1 (22:27): Okay. So we will take a quick break and come back and talk about one more listener question. We'll be right back. Speaker 1 (22:43): Alright, we are back talking with Sherilyn Knapp and Bill Eddy about workplace disputes and conflict. So we have one more question from a listener who says, I would like to hear more support for the abuse enablers that enablers inflict. It's a difficult situation to be so abused and attacked by the entities that are supposed to be educated. They're so insulting. The target is blamed for being an abused person in a difficult circumstance. High conflict person is praised and built up and gets approval for being an abuser while the destroyed person is degraded even more. So this one sounds like there's some really serious, potentially serious things happening, or at least they're being felt very seriously. So Sherilyn, what's your initial thought about? There's not necessarily a question, but other than how would I get more support if I'm in this situation? Speaker 3 (23:43): I want to first acknowledge that listener who wrote this is clearly feeling a lot of pain and to really express compassion for that, it sounds like a really difficult situation. Something that pops out for me from this question is about the word enablers. And so what I hear there is in a workplace conflict that might be a few different people, that might be supervisors, it might be coworkers or it might even be the system or the way things work in that workplace as a whole. So I think it's a moment to think about the role of the negative advocate that sometimes a high conflict person who is enacting abusive behavior towards somebody else can actually get other people doing their work for them. That the high conflict person might go to the supervisor and actually complain about the person who is their targeted blame, that they might engage the coworkers in a lot of gossip and chatter about, oh, did you see this happen? Speaker 3 (24:53): Did you see that happen? And that can lead to really feeling humiliated for the person who's on the receiving end of that. So again, not knowing a lot of detail about what this particular listener is going through, but thinking about what does that mean when we call somebody an enabler and to be mindful for all of us, are we sometimes hooked into somebody else's drama triangle or conflict, right? Is somebody is a person with high conflict personality traits, could it being charismatic and charming and hooking us in to their situation and we start doing some of their dirty work for them and the really negative, terrible impact that that can have on other people? Speaker 4 (25:38): Yeah, I think that it's having a view that the high conflict person is getting all the attention and somehow getting away with it is concerning. And that's where you get the negative advocates. I think of consulting in one organization and I said, we'll talk to human resources. And they said, well, the head of human resources is buddies with this supervisor and so that may not be the right person. So realizing these three roles, you've got a high conflict person, you have a negative advocate or enabler and a target of blame. And it is important, I think as you said Cheryl Lynn, that we have three theories of what's going on. Maybe it's this charming person that's causing the trouble. And we often see that with a narcissistic supervisor who's really good at kissing up to the people above them while they're kicking the people below them. Speaker 4 (26:41): And we have to realize that could be happening and always entertain that possibility. But at all levels, I think in a sense for the person who feels like the target of blame is, as we were saying earlier, look at what choices you have. In other words, we don't know that the organization's going to do anything, make some efforts. And if you find that's not working, look at what your personal options are, analyze what you can do because you never want to feel trapped and helpless. And I think that's part of being the target of blames. You start having those feelings and you want to get out of that. Write a list of what your options are. You may not be able to change these people. As Cheryl Lynn said at the very beginning is insight for high conflict people just usually doesn't come. So if the organization isn't setting limits, having consequences, look at what you can do to make your own life better. Don't just view it as I'm a helpless victim. I think for all of us, we have to believe we do have power, we do have choices even if they're not great choices. Speaker 1 (27:56): Yeah, thank you for that, bill. It is important for anyone who's feeling trapped and feeling like they don't have choices. And I think you can start in your own mind to feel like there is no way out and there is a way out. There's not a magic wand sometimes or maybe ever. And there are small things you can do. You can use your skills, you can have conversations with those who have some power to change things, but if you do reach a dead end, you do have to make those choices. And I really like what you said about making a list about what your options are. It helps you think so clearly and thoroughly through them. We call this list decisions and dilemmas list. Probably flip that around dilemmas and decisions because first you have the dilemma, then you need to make a decision. And so you need to list out what your options and your choices are. Speaker 1 (28:49): I've found it to be very helpful for myself and helpful for those that I've maybe consulted with and coached. So speaking of coaching, I want to wrap this up by mentioning what we do have available for this offerings through our website and through our institute. And one thing that's new is we are offering employee coaching for anyone. Whether you're a manager, you're a leader, you are an employee and you need some help in a high conflict situation, we now have that. So we'll have that link in the show notes. And since we have Sherilyn and Bill here and they're both involved with New Ways for Work training, let's talk first Sherilyn about New Ways for work, for coaches, for hr, and then we'll talk about what we're doing. That's New Ways For Work is a program that was developed by Speaker 3 (29:41): Bill Eddie and Georgie DeStefano a number of years ago to address these very things that we've been talking about to help people who may have high conflict personality traits to succeed in the workplace, to work on their own ways that they engage with conflict and also to support the people in the workplace who may have to deal with those people and who need support for dealing with an HCP supervisor or coworker or a person on their team. So New Ways For Work Coaching is a course that High Conflict Institute offers that is jointly taught by Bill who provides the on-demand recorded portion and me who and I do the livestream training portion. And what we do is people get the background of the detail, the meat or tofu and potatoes of the background to working with high conflict personalities, understanding them and the basic skills that we need to be able to work with them. Speaker 3 (30:43): As well as two four hour livestream sessions of training on how to provide coaching support to people with high conflict personality traits or the people who work with them all within a workplace context. We make use of the New Ways for Work Manual and Workbook Coaching Workbook, which is a system that was developed by Bill and Georgi for helping someone do behavior shift their behavior to be more, I guess get along better in workplaces and handle conflict better. So that workbook focuses on teaching people the four big skills which are managing emotions, flexible thinking, moderate behavior, and checking yourself. And so we really break that down and help people with how do you teach that to somebody? And then, because plenty of people come who are in coaching roles and say, okay, but I help people who work with the high conflict person, what do I do there? Speaker 3 (31:47): And so the coaching course also helps people who support a coachee who's in a high conflict situation at work with using the cars method that we talked about today and how to break that down and how to teach that method to somebody else. The focus of the New Ways for Work Coaching course is for people who are one-on-one coaching dynamic. So that might be HR professionals, EAP consultants and counselors. It could be conflict coaches, it could be executive coaches, it could be therapists and it also could be leaders because some leaders take that coaching piece on a one-on-one basis. But basically the key here is that the coaching courses for people who deal one-on-one Speaker 1 (32:39): In some kind of interactive model like that to teach them how to teach someone else these techniques and bill New ways for work. I know when you started thinking about it years ago was to help give employees a chance to change instead of just leaving them flounder in the workplace or causing a lot of disruptions or just terminating them. So let's talk about that for just a moment. Speaker 4 (33:09): Yeah, so I'll give you an example. One of the high tech companies I did a training for and then they did a consultation with me and they said, we have a middle manager who sends these nasty emails disparaging her team. She's got like 20 people in her team and people are being offended by her and this is just how she is. And so should we fire her or keep her? And what I said is we'll give her some coaching in how to do Biff emails brief, informative, friendly and firm, give her three coaching sessions and see if she can begin to change. If she can begin to change, then that's hopeful and encouraging. And you may be able to keep a manager who knows the business but doesn't have good people skills. In the high tech field, they call them sharp elbows. I don't know what the outcome was, but that's what I recommended. Speaker 4 (34:09): In general, we haven't done a study on the coaching outcome, but anecdotally it seems to be about half of people do improve their behavior enough to maintain their employment and about half of people don't change their behavior and may need to be moved out of the position they're in. That's just a real rough estimate. But if you figure traits versus disorders that if people have high conflict personality traits, then they may be more workable and able to learn to manage their emotions and learn to have more flexible thinking, whereas some we know just aren't going to change. That's personality disorders. Some people with personality disorders can change, but some, that's one of the characteristics of personality disorders is an enduring pattern of behavior. So I think what it does, it gives people a chance to change while not tying up the organization for months or years. In three sessions, you're going to see progress or you're not going to see progress. Speaker 1 (35:24): And I know we have a couple of new ways for work coaching trainings coming up. One is in April and another one in October. And so if you register for those, you'll get to hear Bill at the beginning part and then Sherilyn in the live part. And it's just fantastic stuff. The feedback we get from trainees is phenomenal. So those links are in the show notes for you. Now. Let's talk about finally here at the end, something new. We're going to be an offering, which is New Ways for Work for Leaders. So Sherilyn fill us in a bit on that. And then Bill, we'll give you the last word. Speaker 3 (36:02): I am just so excited to talk for the first time publicly about this new course offering that we are putting together and we'll be offering very soon. So it's called New Ways for Work Leaders and the focus there is on people, leaders of any kind, whether they are frontline supervisors or senior leaders in an organization. If you lead people and if you find that there is high conflict behavior on your teams, then this course will be made for you. And what we're going to do is to take the high conflict institute's techniques, many of which we've been talking about today, and apply them in the context of teams and some of the really significant challenges that leaders have to face. So whether that is learning how to handle disruptive behavior in team meetings and group settings to handling those reply all email or teams messenger, email avalanches that happen to how to handle it when the tables get turned, when there are attempts to manage this person's performance and they turn the tables on the leader and say that the leader's actually the bully and even toxic group behavior when sometimes a group can take on a high conflict character, whereas maybe the individuals wouldn't have fallen into that category, that the group behavior can really go off the rails. Speaker 3 (37:39): So those are the kinds of things that we're going to address in this course, and we are just super excited to be launching it coming soon. So look for get on the newsletter email list if you're not on it already. And look for dates coming up. Yeah, soon, soon, soon. Speaker 4 (38:00): And I'm excited about it too because Cheryl Lynn is the one doing the primary part of developing this, and it's something I thought about off and on. But I think what we're seeing, especially since covid, is that a lot of people are dealing with high conflict behavior in all different size organizations, all different levels. And I've always had this saying that the problem isn't the position, it's the personality, and they can be in any position. And so learning these skills for leaders and how to manage their team, their organization, and I must say there's a lot of conflict in a lot of certain areas in business, in healthcare and education in nonprofits. The list goes on and on, and yet people can manage this. People in society talk about a lot of frustration. There's a lot of high conflict behavior today. But what's really exciting is to see people learn skills and then tell us six months, 12 months later, Hey, this situation's a lot better now. Thanks for those skills. So it really is a lot about learning skills and I'm so excited Cheryl Lynn is leading this project and bringing it to fruition. So thanks Cheryl Lynn for that. Speaker 1 (39:27): Absolutely. We are just thrilled that Sherilyn is leading this charge and carrying the message through, so we'll be looking forward to that. Speaker 1 (39:42): Thanks listeners for being here today and listening in again. Next week we'll have another guest, Sonya Woods of one of our conflict influencers here at High Conflict Institute. She brings a unique perspective from her upbringing in France and working in different countries throughout her career and finally landing in the us launching on a mediation career in Send your questions to podcast@highconflictinstitute.com or submit them to high conflict institute.com/podcast. We'd love it if you tell your friends and colleagues about us and we'd be very grateful if you'd leave a review. Until next time, keep learning and practicing these skills. Be kind to yourself and others while we all try to keep the conflict small. It's All Your Fault is a production of True Story FM Engineering by Andy Nelson. Music by Wolf Samuels, John Coggins and Ziv Moran. Find the show notes and transcripts@truestory.fm or high conflict institute.com/podcast. If your podcast app allows ratings and reviews, please consider doing that for our show.