Latest / The Psychology of Relationships / When Your Marriage Nearly Falls Apart: Lessons in Repair & Reconnection w/ Casey & Meygan Caston

Transcript

When Your Marriage Nearly Falls Apart: Lessons in Repair & Reconnection w/ Casey & Meygan Caston · The Psychology of Relationships

0:00
[SPEAKER_05]: I'm Julie Craftscheck, and I'm UASU.
0:03
[SPEAKER_05]: This is the Psychology of Relationships.
0:19
[SPEAKER_03]: Marriage doesn't fall apart overnight.
0:22
[SPEAKER_03]: It erodes through unresolved conflict, unmet needs, and missed opportunity for repair.
0:28
[SPEAKER_03]: Until one day, the distance feels impossible to ignore.
0:32
[SPEAKER_03]: So often, we're taught that healthy relationship shouldn't feel this hard.
0:36
[SPEAKER_03]: that if the love is real, things should naturally work themselves out.
0:40
[SPEAKER_03]: But relationships psychology tells a different story.
0:43
[SPEAKER_03]: It's not the absence of conflict that predicts long-term success.
0:48
[SPEAKER_03]: It's the ability to repair after disconnection.
0:51
[SPEAKER_03]: When repair is missing, even deeply loving relationships can slowly unravel.
0:56
[SPEAKER_03]: In this episode, we're joined by Kasey and Megan Casten, marriage coaches and authors of the Marriage Habit, and 365 connecting questions for couples, who have created Marriage 365, a relationship education platform helping hundreds of thousands of couples straight through the communication, rebuild trust, and reconnect with intention.
1:19
[SPEAKER_03]: But before they started helping other couples, they rebuilt their own relationship after nearly collapsed, forcing them to confront the patterns, expectations, and myths about marriage, they hadn't fully examined before saying I do.
1:34
[SPEAKER_03]: Drawing from both their personal experience and their work with couples,
1:38
[SPEAKER_03]: Casey and Megan break down the psychology of rupture and repair, while conflict isn't the problem but avoidance, defensiveness, and lack of emotional responsibility often are.
1:49
[SPEAKER_03]: They share the green and red flags they overlooked early on.
1:53
[SPEAKER_03]: The cultural narratives about marriage that quietly set couples up for disappointment and the tools they used to rebuild emotional safety and intimacy.
2:02
[SPEAKER_03]: This conversation reframes healthy marriage not as something that stays intact on its own, but is something that must be actively maintained, repaired, and reimagined over time, because lasting relationships aren't defined by never breaking.
2:17
[SPEAKER_03]: They're defined by how well we come back together.
2:19
[SPEAKER_03]: Remember to subscribe to the Psychology of Relationships on Apple Podcasts Spotify or wherever you listen.
2:26
[SPEAKER_03]: And if this episode changed how you think about marriage and long-term relationships, we'd love a rating or review.
2:33
[SPEAKER_03]: It really helps so much.
2:35
[SPEAKER_03]: This is the psychology of relationships and you're listening to an episode that might just change the way you show up for love.
2:41
[SPEAKER_03]: Enjoy!
2:49
[SPEAKER_05]: we are very much looking forward to hearing your story.
2:52
[SPEAKER_05]: Because as we understand, you have quite the story of how your marriage was headed for divorce.
2:57
[SPEAKER_05]: Due to a lot of these preconceived notions we have about being at relationships and you were able to turn your marriage around.
3:04
[SPEAKER_05]: So I'm ready.
3:05
[SPEAKER_05]: I'm ready for this story.
3:06
[SPEAKER_00]: We're honored to be with you guys.
3:07
[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you so much.
3:08
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, excited to be here.
3:09
[SPEAKER_02]: Excited to share our very messy story.
3:11
[SPEAKER_03]: I think this is going to help like whether you're married headed for a marriage.
3:15
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, even if you're single as fuck, I think this is still really good to like get ahead of things and learn from other people, so we're excited.
3:22
[SPEAKER_05]: We're excited to be here.
3:22
[SPEAKER_05]: Let's go to the good stuff, which is the bad stuff.
3:25
[SPEAKER_05]: Let's go back to the dark days of your marriage on the rocks.
3:28
[SPEAKER_05]: What was happening when your trajectory was on the decline?
3:33
[SPEAKER_00]: So I guess the best way to start off would be at the bottom.
3:37
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
3:37
[SPEAKER_00]: And I mean, I think there was a moment, year three in a marriage.
3:40
[SPEAKER_00]: There was so much hatred and resentment towards each other.
3:43
[SPEAKER_00]: There was like almost like a confusion and like a, what did I get myself into?
3:48
[SPEAKER_00]: Hmm.
3:48
[SPEAKER_00]: I was in love with this person dating felt so easy.
3:53
[SPEAKER_00]: I've never been an angry person.
3:55
[SPEAKER_00]: And in the last three years, every conversation turned into a yelling screaming match where we blamed each other, criticize each other, we put each other down, we tried to intimid each other by raising our voice and be as loud as possible and it was like a winner take all because Megan and I are also super competitive.
4:14
[SPEAKER_00]: So when it was about time to go to war, like we were going to win no matter what and use any weapon in our arsenal.
4:22
[SPEAKER_00]: And there was this moment where I started to mourn the idea that I was going to repeat the exact same habits I saw in my mom.
4:30
[SPEAKER_00]: My mom was married six times.
4:32
[SPEAKER_00]: I am doomed to repeat exactly everything I saw in my childhood, which was super traumatic and ugly and I never wanted anybody else to go through that.
4:40
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, we were asking ourselves the question that no one wants to ever say and ask themselves which is, did we make the biggest mistake of our lives?
4:48
[SPEAKER_02]: Damn.
4:49
[SPEAKER_02]: And when you're faced with that, and divorce is an option, divorce was a serious option.
4:54
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, you're only three years into it.
4:55
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, well, we fell in love and it took two years to get married and date and all that.
4:59
[SPEAKER_02]: And now, like, how do we destroy something so quickly?
5:02
[SPEAKER_02]: And I remember talking to my best friend and just, you know, saying it all case he's fault at that time, I thought it was all his fault.
5:09
[SPEAKER_02]: And blaming him and I'm researching divorce lawyers and she said this is a really big decision.
5:14
[SPEAKER_02]: And I think you should go talk to somebody.
5:16
[SPEAKER_02]: And so I'm so glad I went to a therapist.
5:19
[SPEAKER_02]: I did go by myself because this guy right here, I begged him to go.
5:22
[SPEAKER_02]: He wouldn't go to therapy, which side note for any listeners, most men will never go to therapy.
5:28
[SPEAKER_02]: And I'm saying most, meaning it is the majority.
5:30
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
5:30
[SPEAKER_02]: If you look at statistics, it's typically female.
5:33
[SPEAKER_02]: It's only about 20% of men will ever go to therapy.
5:35
[SPEAKER_02]: Individual therapy or any sort of therapy, any sort of therapy, especially marriage therapy.
5:40
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I mean, I think we're doing a great job in culture of really working and trying hard to make it more normal, where there's less shame.
5:48
[SPEAKER_02]: So hopefully we'll see a change in that.
5:49
[SPEAKER_02]: But from up until this point, that's the pretty standard statistic that's been around for the last 30 years.
5:54
[SPEAKER_03]: That's interesting.
5:55
[SPEAKER_03]: That's so different than what we see, like from the people that we interact with.
5:59
[SPEAKER_03]: It's definitely, that seems like very, very low.
6:02
[SPEAKER_03]: So I'm glad that feels like maybe it's moving in a better direction.
6:05
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, couples therapy, immediately that you have three people in the room.
6:08
[SPEAKER_00]: There's triangulation.
6:09
[SPEAKER_00]: So as soon as your spouse starts saying, yes.
6:11
[SPEAKER_00]: This is what he does and the therapist validates.
6:14
[SPEAKER_00]: Whoa.
6:15
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
6:15
[SPEAKER_00]: It's two gets one now.
6:16
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it will always feel two gets one.
6:18
[SPEAKER_02]: I think a lot of times two there's a bad stigma where men feel like I'm going to be sitting on this couch being blamed for all these problems in my marriage Which there's a bit of truth to that if you think about where my mindset was at that time I did think that it was all him or mostly him, right?
6:34
[SPEAKER_02]: And so all that to say I sat with this therapist and I complained for 30 minutes and you know about how
6:39
[SPEAKER_02]: Poor bully was, and she said, you know, Megan, she said two profound things that completely changed my life, and then luckily changed the trajectory of our marriage.
6:46
[SPEAKER_02]: But she said, if you want to make a better marriage, it starts by making a better you.
6:51
[SPEAKER_02]: And you can sit here all you want and blame him and he is accountable for his actions.
6:56
[SPEAKER_02]: But I can guarantee you you haven't been showing up the healthiest version of yourself.
7:00
[SPEAKER_02]: And then she asks the second question, and that is, have you done everything and anything to save your marriage?
7:05
[SPEAKER_02]: So you don't live with regret.
7:07
[SPEAKER_02]: And I knew my answer was no, and most people's answers are no.
7:12
[SPEAKER_02]: And so for 13 months, I worked with this woman and I did a 180.
7:18
[SPEAKER_02]: I started to forgive him.
7:19
[SPEAKER_02]: I started to offer apologies.
7:22
[SPEAKER_02]: I worked on myself.
7:23
[SPEAKER_02]: I started practicing self-care.
7:24
[SPEAKER_02]: I started kind of sifting through my childhood and realizing how bad it was.
7:29
[SPEAKER_02]: And I had some unprocessed hurt from there.
7:31
[SPEAKER_02]: And I just, I was like no matter what happens in my marriage at the end of the day,
7:37
[SPEAKER_02]: who are we responsible for?
7:38
[SPEAKER_02]: Who do we have control over ourselves?
7:40
[SPEAKER_02]: That's it.
7:41
[SPEAKER_02]: And how we show up our communication, our boundaries, our response, our intention, our communication, all of that.
7:48
[SPEAKER_00]: And so the story goes that Megan started working on herself and there was a pivotal moment where I was upset with her.
7:56
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm walking into the room.
7:57
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm fuming.
7:58
[SPEAKER_00]: My face is all red.
7:59
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm starting.
8:00
[SPEAKER_00]: You're going to hear from me kind of a thing like just I'm going to attack you and she saw me and she had worked on herself enough where there was this sense of confidence to know like that's your pain right now that's coming out not my pain.
8:13
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't have to engage in it so she sits there she's like.
8:16
[SPEAKER_00]: I can tell you're very upset right now and I really want to hear what you have to say once you go out and say take a walk calm down and then come back inside and then let's have a healthy conversation about it and I was like my jaws on the floor moment of like who's this and it was such a powerful moment that you know in that time I really was like okay
8:39
[SPEAKER_00]: Maybe I'm the unhealthy person in this relationship.
8:42
[SPEAKER_00]: And then I think my competitive gear kicked in, and I was like, oh, I'm an outdo you.
8:46
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm gonna be more confident than you.
8:48
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, it was like, I wanted to become to her level.
8:52
[SPEAKER_00]: So she actually set the standard.
8:54
[SPEAKER_00]: And then I was like, oh, I want to rise up.
8:56
[SPEAKER_00]: I want to rise to the level.
8:57
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, we're in the past.
8:58
[SPEAKER_02]: I would have engaged with anger, push back.
9:01
[SPEAKER_02]: And that's what I learned was it's so empowering to know that you have full control actually
9:09
[SPEAKER_03]: So there's so much that we want to unpack obviously, but I think the biggest thing, at least where my mind is going, and I think a lot of single people or people in relationships that aren't married yet is like, how did it keep in get this way?
9:21
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I think it's my biggest fear.
9:22
[SPEAKER_03]: I'll be transparent, and I've seen this happen in other friends, marriages, and stuff too, that like one day there's just the switch, and where does that come from?
9:31
[SPEAKER_03]: And like when you were dating, like how did that happen?
9:34
[SPEAKER_00]: I think when we go back to dating, right?
9:36
[SPEAKER_00]: So a couple of things as you were talking, Julia, I was like, dating was so much fun.
9:41
[SPEAKER_00]: And so that we showed up for all the fun stuff.
9:43
[SPEAKER_00]: It was walks along the beach.
9:45
[SPEAKER_00]: It was going to the street fair.
9:48
[SPEAKER_02]: Everything was new, right?
9:50
[SPEAKER_02]: Everything's new.
9:50
[SPEAKER_02]: You don't know each other.
9:51
[SPEAKER_00]: I wanted you to date also before you go.
9:53
[SPEAKER_02]: We dated for two years.
9:54
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
9:54
[SPEAKER_00]: But here's the thing.
9:55
[SPEAKER_00]: I think the expectation was we were having so much fun why don't I pop a ring on it and let's just do this forever because this is great.
10:03
[SPEAKER_02]: And it feels really good.
10:05
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
10:05
[SPEAKER_02]: I will say that I know now looking back one of the biggest things that we made a mistake on was not going into marriage prepared for what marriage requires.
10:16
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah sure.
10:17
[SPEAKER_02]: So I believe that most everybody gets married for love and what I've learned is that is never and will never be enough to sustain a marriage.
10:24
[SPEAKER_02]: any relationship.
10:26
[SPEAKER_02]: There has to be tools.
10:28
[SPEAKER_02]: There has to be a plan.
10:29
[SPEAKER_02]: There has to be conversations.
10:31
[SPEAKER_02]: And so we went into marriage.
10:32
[SPEAKER_02]: We didn't have communication skills.
10:35
[SPEAKER_02]: So then of course, as we're talking and there is conflict, well, if you don't have conflict resolution skills, we didn't know what to do.
10:42
[SPEAKER_02]: So we just fought.
10:43
[SPEAKER_05]: You knew how to have fun.
10:44
[SPEAKER_05]: That's easy part.
10:45
[SPEAKER_05]: Yes.
10:45
[SPEAKER_05]: And that's what gets you in.
10:47
[SPEAKER_05]: This is, you know how to have fun with each other.
10:48
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
10:49
[SPEAKER_02]: Right.
10:49
[SPEAKER_02]: 100%.
10:50
[SPEAKER_00]: So it was all like the top level stuff.
10:52
[SPEAKER_00]: It was all the icing.
10:53
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
10:54
[SPEAKER_00]: And we're like, let's do this icing stuff forever.
10:57
[SPEAKER_00]: But dating and marriage are two different games.
11:01
[SPEAKER_00]: Mm-hmm.
11:01
[SPEAKER_00]: That's kind of what we're realizing and just
11:04
[SPEAKER_00]: Oftentimes, because we're marriage coaches, we're coaching couples that are in crisis, when we go back to where did things go wrong?
11:10
[SPEAKER_00]: We can actually go all the way back to their dating years.
11:13
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
11:14
[SPEAKER_02]: And then they look back and they go, I wish we did this.
11:17
[SPEAKER_02]: I wish I would have been aware of that, right?
11:19
[SPEAKER_02]: This is why we love what you ladies are doing.
11:21
[SPEAKER_02]: This is such important work.
11:23
[SPEAKER_02]: And for all of you listeners, you're so lucky to have this podcast, because this is exactly what, well, we're so old where there weren't podcasts when we were dating.
11:31
[SPEAKER_00]: So it wasn't
11:35
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, there wasn't even iPhone or smartphones yet.
11:38
[SPEAKER_02]: There wasn't even digital photography when we got married.
11:40
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, come on, I'm just saying, I'm just at no social media yet, right?
11:44
[SPEAKER_02]: So the simple times, the simple times.
11:47
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and so we did, and we knew what we did, and that's all we knew, right?
11:52
[SPEAKER_02]: But now, like, you ladies, and there's so much information and great books out there that there's more of awareness.
11:57
[SPEAKER_02]: So we really went in blindly to marriage.
12:00
[SPEAKER_02]: And that's one of my, I don't see regrets because now I'm changing it.
12:03
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, where I'm helping people, right?
12:05
[SPEAKER_02]: but we've talked about that as a couple where the lack of knowledge and tools of thinking that love is enough is so blinding that that switch will feel really big.
12:15
[SPEAKER_05]: That is kind of what we've been able to discover on our podcast too because our focus was on dating for so long and we realized that the game of dating, like you were saying Casey, doesn't apply to marriage.
12:26
[SPEAKER_05]: So why don't we focus on relationship-minded dating, which is a total
12:31
[SPEAKER_05]: totally different way to date.
12:33
[SPEAKER_05]: But to get to the point where you're headed towards divorce where it's such a viable option for you and I actually have a few friends going through this right now.
12:42
[SPEAKER_05]: And they're feeling like, I thought we did everything we could to get this relationship back to where it was.
12:49
[SPEAKER_05]: What do you think is an issue with a thought of?
12:51
[SPEAKER_05]: I wish this relationship could get back to where it was.
12:54
[SPEAKER_00]: I want to go to tools.
12:57
[SPEAKER_00]: So when I think about building a house, a legacy home to house, all of our dreams, our hopes, our kids and the dreams that we have for them, when I look at like the biggest thing that hurt us going into marriage was I had no tools.
13:12
[SPEAKER_00]: I just thought, well, love is all you need.
13:14
[SPEAKER_00]: Love should be enough and love is the foundation of every relationship, but it's not.
13:18
[SPEAKER_00]: Trust is, trust teaches us who is safe enough
13:24
[SPEAKER_00]: and trust is very tactical.
13:28
[SPEAKER_00]: Love is kind of ethereal.
13:29
[SPEAKER_00]: Love is, you know, unicorns and rainbows, but trust is accountability, reliability, it's safety, yes consistency.
13:39
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, like if you want to think of, there's nothing romantic about trust.
13:43
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
13:43
[SPEAKER_00]: It is a very tactical word in relationships.
13:46
[SPEAKER_00]: And so we're asking people to build something and giving them no tools.
13:51
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
13:51
[SPEAKER_00]: And one of the things we have seen over the last decade and a half that we've been working with couples is,
13:58
[SPEAKER_00]: Couples honestly don't need more therapy, they need better tools, because with tools, then they can work it into their relationship.
14:07
[SPEAKER_00]: That's kind of like the whole idea of having good habits of affirming each other, of checking in, of finding alignment, that the tools that we've kind of created are really meant to create that foundation of trust.
14:20
[SPEAKER_02]: But to go back to your question of, we want to go back to that.
14:23
[SPEAKER_02]: Like we had something so good and we're like long for that.
14:26
[SPEAKER_02]: I see that.
14:27
[SPEAKER_02]: I think that it's good to go back and reminisce about what were the good things when we were dating.
14:31
[SPEAKER_02]: For example, we were very playful, very fun things like that.
14:35
[SPEAKER_02]: We were very quick to forgive.
14:36
[SPEAKER_02]: We were very quick to apologize when we were dating.
14:38
[SPEAKER_02]: We didn't hold grudges, right?
14:40
[SPEAKER_02]: So go back and reminisce and say what were the good that we want to take.
14:44
[SPEAKER_02]: but I am so glad that I am not the same person who I was when we were dating.
14:48
[SPEAKER_02]: It's through the hardships and the challenges that have made me such a better person and it's not a braggy thing.
14:55
[SPEAKER_02]: It's to say, I was very immature.
14:57
[SPEAKER_02]: There was a lot of me that was very insecure and sing with Casey.
15:01
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, we both end to see who we are now.
15:04
[SPEAKER_02]: I like who we are now better.
15:06
[SPEAKER_02]: And I believe that we should all be people where we are evolving and changing and growing and learning and learning from our mistakes.
15:12
[SPEAKER_02]: And so I see that desire to say, let's go back to what we had, but only part of it, right?
15:18
[SPEAKER_02]: Like only the good, like focus on the good, make those lists.
15:21
[SPEAKER_02]: What was it that worked?
15:22
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I like that.
15:23
[SPEAKER_03]: So I think Casey, I know what you're saying about the trust part.
15:26
[SPEAKER_03]: It brought something to me because I know when I was dating the last time around, really changed what I was looking for.
15:32
[SPEAKER_03]: And it was consistency, reliability, the unsexy stuff.
15:36
[SPEAKER_03]: And I think a lot of times in the past for me, too.
15:39
[SPEAKER_03]: I was not looking for that.
15:41
[SPEAKER_03]: That was not at the forefront.
15:42
[SPEAKER_03]: And that doesn't mean the only qualities you're looking for is that.
15:45
[SPEAKER_03]: But I do believe that it's the foundation.
15:48
[SPEAKER_03]: And if that's not there, then it's hard to build.
15:51
[SPEAKER_03]: You're also saying that like you now can see like with your clients like in retrospect there were some red flags or things that were apparent at the beginning like do you think that you can tell early on like if you'll have challenges down the line or is this something that is just kind of inevitable studies and research has shown that yes conflict is inevitable so it's going to happen because of this reason you are two different people different personnel and we are two very different people.
16:20
[SPEAKER_05]: Oh yeah, yeah, we are very goodness, right?
16:22
[SPEAKER_05]: Why would you want to marry yourself?
16:24
[SPEAKER_00]: I define the type B and she defines the type A. Oh yeah, she's a spender.
16:29
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm a saver.
16:30
[SPEAKER_02]: You're so spontaneous and I'm so structured in a planner, right?
16:34
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm an internal processor where I make like pros and cons listen, think about it.
16:38
[SPEAKER_02]: Journal, he is a verbal processor, right?
16:41
[SPEAKER_02]: He's late to everything I'm on time to ever.
16:43
[SPEAKER_02]: everything.
16:43
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm going to go on and on and on and on and on.
16:46
[SPEAKER_02]: And so here we are.
16:47
[SPEAKER_02]: We actually really genuinely like each other and love each other.
16:50
[SPEAKER_02]: Mary 21 years and we're more different than alike.
16:53
[SPEAKER_02]: So conflict is going to happen because you've got two people with different upbringings, personalities, preferences, beliefs, just anything that we just named, you know, how you view money.
17:02
[SPEAKER_02]: And so that's going to happen, but it's having the tools and the right mindset and that foundation and safety of trust that when
17:13
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, because now we still have conflict.
17:15
[SPEAKER_02]: We're different people, but our conflict used to last two three weeks.
17:19
[SPEAKER_02]: Now it's like two three minutes.
17:20
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, I can do that.
17:21
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, that's just going to happen.
17:23
[SPEAKER_02]: So yeah, study show 69% of conflict is inevitable.
17:26
[SPEAKER_02]: It's going to happen.
17:27
[SPEAKER_00]: Were you just making up that number?
17:28
[SPEAKER_00]: Because you like it?
17:28
[SPEAKER_02]: I know.
17:29
[SPEAKER_02]: It is a great number for marriage relationship at 69, but it's not my research.
17:33
[SPEAKER_02]: It's the Goblin Institute research, but yes.
17:35
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes.
17:36
[SPEAKER_05]: What are the red flags, though?
17:37
[SPEAKER_05]: In early dating, that can determine the outcome of that relationship.
17:41
[SPEAKER_02]: A big one is someone who's not willing to talk about the uncomfortable conversations.
17:46
[SPEAKER_02]: Because if they're not willing when they're dating, they're not going to be willing to do when you're married.
17:50
[SPEAKER_02]: And comfortable means something different for everybody.
17:53
[SPEAKER_02]: So it could be about money.
17:54
[SPEAKER_02]: It could be about family.
17:55
[SPEAKER_02]: It could be about a specific memory they have.
17:58
[SPEAKER_02]: But if someone shuts down and says often, I don't want to talk about that.
18:02
[SPEAKER_02]: That's a really bad sign, because we know communication is so important in romantic relationships.
18:09
[SPEAKER_00]: All right, now I want to talk about sex.
18:11
[SPEAKER_03]: This is a red flag with sex, okay?
18:12
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, because one of the things we've seen with couples that come to us that have not established a firm foundation of trust going back to Julie is they introduce sex to early in the relationship.
18:23
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, we have seen this time and time again.
18:26
[SPEAKER_00]: It's so much so that it is a pattern.
18:28
[SPEAKER_00]: because what we've discovered through just looking at relationships that as long as a relationship is non-sexual, that distance right there.
18:37
[SPEAKER_00]: That is the time where you are actually in a hardcore evaluation phase.
18:43
[SPEAKER_00]: Because as soon as a couple introduces sex, sex is a bonding experience.
18:49
[SPEAKER_00]: It releases all sorts of hormones that create connections.
18:53
[SPEAKER_00]: And we have not established, is this person's safe enough for us?
18:57
[SPEAKER_02]: So if the sex is good, it'll skew.
18:59
[SPEAKER_02]: Someone's judgment to say, is this the right partner for me?
19:02
[SPEAKER_00]: Which sex is the new person is novelty.
19:05
[SPEAKER_00]: So, or is it going to be good?
19:06
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, that's a winner.
19:08
[SPEAKER_02]: We're then a question we would tell everybody to ask themselves in a relationship is if we removed all of the sex and physical intimacy from the relationship, what else do I have?
19:16
[SPEAKER_03]: Is it that that people like build too much?
19:19
[SPEAKER_03]: Like they rely too much on sex?
19:20
[SPEAKER_02]: It's more so that it skews the judgment of your goggles of relations.
19:24
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, especially for women.
19:26
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm going to be gender specific here.
19:28
[SPEAKER_02]: Women tend to ignore or minimize the red flags that they see in a guy because the sex is good.
19:33
[SPEAKER_02]: I could see that it's bad.
19:35
[SPEAKER_02]: It's really bad.
19:36
[SPEAKER_02]: And so typically if it's like three months or less, that tends to be the like they have problems once they get married.
19:41
[SPEAKER_00]: So what we've heard though with those couples is that they stop having the hard conversations.
19:46
[SPEAKER_00]: So they stop having hard conversations that just keep it really on the top layer.
19:50
[SPEAKER_00]: They haven't really evaluated this is the right person for me.
19:53
[SPEAKER_00]: Then they do this for months, even years, maybe they throw a kid in there at some point and they're like, well, let's start a family.
19:59
[SPEAKER_00]: And then we see them six years later when everything's falling apart.
20:03
[SPEAKER_00]: He's not working on himself.
20:04
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm trying to help the relationship out.
20:06
[SPEAKER_00]: We have a kid together.
20:07
[SPEAKER_00]: So now we feel like we have to be together.
20:09
[SPEAKER_00]: But I'm with someone who is a stick in the mud.
20:12
[SPEAKER_00]: And now what do I do?
20:14
[SPEAKER_00]: And I guess the second part would be, we talk about sexual compatibility.
20:20
[SPEAKER_00]: I see a lot of people focusing on some level of performance in the bedroom, but sexual compatibility is about the mindset that we show up to the bedroom.
20:29
[SPEAKER_00]: And sex is this beautiful thing where we get to bring pleasure to someone else.
20:35
[SPEAKER_00]: So when I think of someone who is sexually compatible, I think of a healthy mindset about sex as a gift to each other versus what can I get?
20:44
[SPEAKER_00]: out of the bedroom.
20:45
[SPEAKER_02]: It's a very like selfish mindset of like, well, they better know how to please me.
20:49
[SPEAKER_02]: Versus saying, why don't we just connect and teach each other and guide each other on how we both like to be pleased.
20:56
[SPEAKER_00]: And that was an issue in our own relationship.
20:57
[SPEAKER_00]: So, takes one another.
20:59
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
20:59
[SPEAKER_03]: So I guess speaking of your relationship, we started this off of, you know, at the low point.
21:05
[SPEAKER_03]: But before we got out of this recording, you were telling us how your daughter looks up to you both as like the epitome of marriage, just how much you love each other.
21:12
[SPEAKER_03]: So clearly there's been a 360.
21:15
[SPEAKER_03]: How did you get out of that?
21:16
[SPEAKER_03]: How did you get there?
21:17
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, if it took us two years to fall in love and get married, it took us about three years to destroy our marriage.
21:23
[SPEAKER_02]: We like to tell people this was not an overnight thing.
21:26
[SPEAKER_02]: It took about four to five years to repair it.
21:28
[SPEAKER_02]: And really it was incorporating these tools being consistent, offering a lot of apologies, but mainly this, if you want to make a better marriage, make a better you, really focusing on ourselves more than each other because two healthy people create a healthy relationship.
21:43
[SPEAKER_02]: And once we stopped blaming and pointing fingers and waiting around for the other person to change, which that just builds resentment, and then said, well, what can I control?
21:52
[SPEAKER_02]: What can I work on?
21:53
[SPEAKER_02]: That's when things really changed, and so we started dating again.
21:56
[SPEAKER_02]: We started incorporating the good things about our relationship when we were dating, right?
22:00
[SPEAKER_02]: And really just being quick to own our stuff and be accountable.
22:05
[SPEAKER_02]: And then in that process, we couldn't afford therapy anymore.
22:08
[SPEAKER_02]: So then what do you do if someone's like, you need to go therapy and you're like, well, I can't afford it.
22:13
[SPEAKER_02]: Or my spouse won't go.
22:14
[SPEAKER_02]: Or I don't have a good therapist in my area.
22:16
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, there's legitimate reasons why.
22:18
[SPEAKER_02]: Or people have really bad experiences with therapy and they don't want to go.
22:22
[SPEAKER_02]: So that's kind of how we actually in it starting to do marriage 365 was we started creating resources that young, stupid, naive, hurting, casing, Megan, needed.
22:32
[SPEAKER_02]: And our friends saw the turnaround because all our friends were like, oh, they're doomed for divorce.
22:36
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, they all like, they're shocked.
22:38
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, yeah.
22:39
[SPEAKER_02]: It was like if anyone's going to get divorced, it's going to be Casey and Megan because between both sets of our parents, there's 12 marriages.
22:44
[SPEAKER_02]: So like my dad's been married a few times too.
22:46
[SPEAKER_02]: So like we just came from divorce and affairs, and then we live in Orange County, which has the highest divorce rate in the nation at 72%.
22:52
[SPEAKER_01]: Does it really?
22:53
[SPEAKER_02]: It does.
22:54
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes.
22:56
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
22:56
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, all of my parents' neighbors are like, wow, parents.
22:59
[SPEAKER_02]: All of them.
23:00
[SPEAKER_02]: Blended families in Orange County, lots of 2nd, 3rd, 4th, Meredith's in Orange County, yes.
23:05
[SPEAKER_02]: Interesting.
23:06
[SPEAKER_02]: And so, to say, marriage should never be something that someone can't fix and get help for because they can't go to therapy or can't afford therapy.
23:13
[SPEAKER_02]: We wanted to create online resources and be innovators in the relationship in marriage space, and that's what we've done for the last 12 years.
23:19
[SPEAKER_03]: So I guess what are like some examples of those tools, is there something that you feel like was groundbreaking for the two of you that really changed it?
23:28
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, and it's one of my favorite tools, and it's one of the tools that we constantly hear back from people that it's the game changer.
23:34
[SPEAKER_00]: It's called the weekly marriage business meeting.
23:37
[SPEAKER_02]: We are advocates for scheduling sex.
23:40
[SPEAKER_02]: We always tell people if you have spontaneous sex, there's no need to schedule it.
23:43
[SPEAKER_02]: But for the 90% of married couples who are not satisfied with either the quality or quantity.
23:49
[SPEAKER_02]: Or raising kids, you wanna maybe consider scheduling sex as an option.
23:53
[SPEAKER_02]: And again, if someone's having organic sex and they're happy with it, then there's no need to schedule it.
23:58
[SPEAKER_02]: But for those who really are struggling, which is unfortunately the majority of couples, there is one or both partners, no, they should either be having it more.
24:07
[SPEAKER_02]: Then it's something to consider and you can't knock it till you try, is what I would say.
24:10
[SPEAKER_03]: I think one thing that could be a middle ground too, but I feel like as time went on, we weren't going on as many like midweek dates.
24:18
[SPEAKER_03]: We were just like watching TV and kind of getting sluggish.
24:22
[SPEAKER_03]: So like every week, we have Wednesday night that is like a date night at home.
24:26
[SPEAKER_03]: It doesn't necessarily mean we're going out, but like we're playing a game or doing something that's more engaging.
24:32
[SPEAKER_03]: So if you think that like early dating, usually when you get on a date,
24:36
[SPEAKER_03]: So like, if you don't feel like I want you to schedule it like on the calendar, maybe there's other more creative ways that you can like bake it into your flow, I guess.
24:44
[SPEAKER_02]: Absolutely.
24:45
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, or even like use put it in your calendar to initiate sounds if that's something that you want to do or you want to work on.
24:52
[SPEAKER_00]: So the weekly marriage business meeting is one of those tools where if Megan and I had that, I mean, there was a time where if you don't do it, you're just being responsive and reactive to the week as it comes about.
25:05
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
25:05
[SPEAKER_00]: And that can really put everybody on the back feet, put everybody in kind of a defensive slash like tense posture.
25:11
[SPEAKER_00]: Whereas this is a habit really born from Stephen Cubby's seven habits, the first one is be proactive.
25:18
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, this is your first step in being proactive for the week to set the right expectation, right?
25:24
[SPEAKER_00]: Because a lot of conflicts comes from misalignment and missed expectations.
25:28
[SPEAKER_00]: And this solves both those things at the same time.
25:30
[SPEAKER_05]: Logistically, what do you actually put in your calendars?
25:33
[SPEAKER_02]: Seth?
25:33
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, so that, yeah, we write nap time, which in AP stands for naughty and playful.
25:39
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, that's good, that's good.
25:42
[SPEAKER_02]: Because we have kids, right?
25:44
[SPEAKER_02]: So if they see our phone, I don't want them being like, whoa, sex time.
25:47
[SPEAKER_02]: And I remember when I, this is funny.
25:49
[SPEAKER_02]: So our daughter when she was seven and she was reading, she's like, why are you napping at eight o'clock at night?
25:54
[SPEAKER_02]: I like it.
25:54
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, because she does naped.
25:56
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, she read that time.
25:57
[SPEAKER_02]: So come up with a code word between you and your spouse, you know?
26:00
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, so a really fun and simple tool and this is a great thing to incorporate when you're dating is something called Loveless.
26:08
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, and it's one of those things that a lot of the hurt came from that I felt like I was loving Casey and he didn't feel it.
26:15
[SPEAKER_02]: And he felt like he was loving me and I didn't feel it.
26:19
[SPEAKER_02]: And this is a common one, even with dating couples, right?
26:22
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
26:22
[SPEAKER_02]: And so we say, teach your partner.
26:25
[SPEAKER_02]: How do love you?
26:26
[SPEAKER_02]: I really like that.
26:27
[SPEAKER_03]: But I think what I hear at the root of this, too, is making each other a priority still.
26:32
[SPEAKER_03]: And I think that's something that can happen in longer term relationships and marriage.
26:37
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm not there yet, but hypothetically, it's like, you're like, oh, of course I have this person.
26:41
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm just going to prioritize other parts of life or, you know, you have kids and other stress that comes in and what it sounds like from your tools, it's a way to reprioritize each other.
26:52
[SPEAKER_03]: How do you see couples maybe falling into this trap of not prioritizing and then getting out of it?
26:59
[SPEAKER_00]: I kind of like go back to the weekly marriage business meeting because you're setting up the priorities for the week being proactive.
27:06
[SPEAKER_00]: So again, this tool catches a lot of the activity within a marriage.
27:10
[SPEAKER_00]: Sex, meals, money, self-care, like priorities.
27:15
[SPEAKER_02]: It ensures that you're going to make time.
27:17
[SPEAKER_02]: I think what happens is busyness is one of the number one killers of marriage and relationships.
27:22
[SPEAKER_02]: We're too busy.
27:23
[SPEAKER_02]: And you're right, when we're dating, we're very intentional.
27:25
[SPEAKER_02]: We make time for it.
27:26
[SPEAKER_02]: And so if you don't put it in your calendar, it's probably not gonna happen.
27:30
[SPEAKER_02]: And I saw this quote years ago and it really convicted me.
27:33
[SPEAKER_02]: Your calendar is a reflection of the things that matter to you.
27:37
[SPEAKER_02]: A lot of napping.
27:38
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah it is though and so we would say if you have an hour to scroll on TikTok or Instagram you've got time for your spouse.
27:48
[SPEAKER_02]: If you binge sports or you play video games or whatever you have time for each other but it is prioritizing that in your calendar so it happens.
27:57
[SPEAKER_00]: to really healthy mindsets that we see in couples that navigate dating well.
28:03
[SPEAKER_00]: One is a healthy sense of curiosity.
28:07
[SPEAKER_00]: I think that that comes very natural when we're dating, because we sit across from someone who is really interesting and we're just like, who is this person?
28:15
[SPEAKER_00]: Like I just want to know them, that generates energy within ourselves, and we ask these really good deep penetrating questions where we're like plumbing the depths of someone's hopes and dreams and directions in your vision for your life.
28:29
[SPEAKER_00]: And then of course that wanes as we get to know each other and we get comfortable with each other.
28:34
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's where I think we see marriages get off track and de-prioritize each other because they're no longer curious about each other.
28:43
[SPEAKER_00]: And underneath curiosity, what you're saying to someone is, I desire you.
28:48
[SPEAKER_00]: Curiosity communicates desire.
28:50
[SPEAKER_00]: If you think about the greatest connection we have with each other's to know and to be known.
28:57
[SPEAKER_00]: And that is that impulse is I want to know who you are.
29:01
[SPEAKER_02]: I want to know your thoughts, your dreams, your hopes, your goals, your fears, your concerns, your struggles and love you and accept you and support you through that.
29:09
[SPEAKER_02]: And so we should never stop getting curious with each other, but we should also never stop getting curious with ourselves.
29:15
[SPEAKER_02]: Wow, why did I show up that way?
29:17
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, when my partner did this or said this, oh, I didn't really like my response to that.
29:21
[SPEAKER_02]: That was a little sharper.
29:22
[SPEAKER_02]: Ooh, that one I did.
29:23
[SPEAKER_02]: Can you hear that?
29:24
[SPEAKER_02]: Come from her.
29:25
[SPEAKER_02]: Why did I shut down in that moment or why did I lash out?
29:27
[SPEAKER_02]: Like never stop getting curious about you, whether you're dating or whether you're married.
29:34
[SPEAKER_02]: If you have that, you're already a one up on most people.
29:37
[SPEAKER_00]: I'll say the opposite of curiosity is your communicating and bored with you.
29:41
[SPEAKER_05]: Hmm, like apathy.
29:42
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that's the nonverbal.
29:44
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I'm just kind of checked out.
29:45
[SPEAKER_00]: And I want to just say if anybody's kind of like, ooh, that kind of hurt, I don't think anybody does that intentionally, especially in long-term relationships.
29:53
[SPEAKER_00]: No one's doing that intentionally, but we do need to be aware of when we're not pursuing each other.
29:58
[SPEAKER_00]: There is something we're communicating in that.
30:01
[SPEAKER_00]: And the second part of that, which I'll go back to tools, is intentionality.
30:05
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't think anybody creating something has great and as a magnificent, like think about the generational impact that a healthy relationship creates for your kids, your grandkids, for people around you, you cannot just leave it to chance.
30:22
[SPEAKER_00]: or rely on hope as a strategy, you have to have a plan.
30:26
[SPEAKER_00]: You have to have tools to help create that legacy impact that you want.
30:31
[SPEAKER_00]: And it starts when you're dating.
30:34
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, because imagine like if you're on a date with a guy and he's like, okay, this was so fun, like let's talk.
30:40
[SPEAKER_02]: And there's no like intentionality of like, well, when are we going to get together?
30:44
[SPEAKER_02]: Are you in a text me?
30:45
[SPEAKER_02]: Should I text you?
30:46
[SPEAKER_02]: And he's like, yeah, well, we'll like figure it out.
30:48
[SPEAKER_02]: First off, that's a turn off.
30:49
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, right and you're like, wow, I don't know like he's given me signals.
30:52
[SPEAKER_02]: And then let's say he's like, I don't know, you kind of pick and we'll just kind of figure it out.
30:55
[SPEAKER_02]: No, like he's like, Hey, let's go to stress journal.
30:57
[SPEAKER_02]: Let's go many golfing or whatever.
30:59
[SPEAKER_02]: You're both intentional.
31:01
[SPEAKER_02]: And that intentionality is what's making the relationship work.
31:04
[SPEAKER_02]: So those are the two mindsets.
31:05
[SPEAKER_02]: And those are the two habits that we would say if you can embody that.
31:08
[SPEAKER_02]: And we see this again.
31:09
[SPEAKER_02]: And couples where they've been married 30 years, 40 years, our marriage mentors.
31:12
[SPEAKER_02]: They are curious people still, even though they're in their sea.
31:15
[SPEAKER_02]: 70s they are still getting curious with one another and themselves and then they are very intentional in their relationship.
31:21
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, and it's the impulse behind our couple's connecting questions book is this idea of creating a tool for couples to get curious with each other but also be intentional about spending time with one another and creating conversations that really help us relearn each other.
31:36
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, I want to hang out here for just a second if you can just entertain me around this idea of curiosity.
31:42
[SPEAKER_05]: What happens?
31:43
[SPEAKER_05]: I can hear one of my friends already asking this.
31:45
[SPEAKER_05]: I see all the tools.
31:46
[SPEAKER_05]: I get, I need to build curiosity and still carry forth this curiosity for my partner.
31:52
[SPEAKER_05]: But I've built so much resentment in this relationship already.
31:55
[SPEAKER_05]: Part of what some of my friends are going through is like, okay, I'm working through some of my issues in therapy.
32:01
[SPEAKER_05]: I don't know if my
32:03
[SPEAKER_05]: I don't know if this is an equal partnership.
32:07
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, journey right now.
32:08
[SPEAKER_05]: And yes, I want to feel curious.
32:10
[SPEAKER_05]: I want to know what your love list is.
32:12
[SPEAKER_05]: I want to use all the tools, but the resentment is already so strong.
32:17
[SPEAKER_05]: It's hard for them to knock down those walls.
32:20
[SPEAKER_05]: What advice or tools would you give to people who already have built that resentment and what can prevent them from building more resentment?
32:27
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, that was me.
32:28
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
32:28
[SPEAKER_02]: Right.
32:29
[SPEAKER_02]: I was working on my marriage by myself.
32:31
[SPEAKER_02]: He was not a willing participant.
32:32
[SPEAKER_02]: You guys I had walls of resentment.
32:35
[SPEAKER_02]: Layers, miles of resentment towards my husband and he was not apologetic and he was not sorry.
32:40
[SPEAKER_02]: The first step to that is seeing your partner through the eyes of compassion.
32:44
[SPEAKER_02]: Hurt people, hurt people.
32:46
[SPEAKER_02]: I was hurting my husband because I was hurting.
32:47
[SPEAKER_02]: But I fix that.
32:48
[SPEAKER_02]: If you continue to have resentment, you will continue to hurt him.
32:51
[SPEAKER_02]: Now, my husband was hurting me because he was hurt.
32:53
[SPEAKER_02]: He was hurting.
32:54
[SPEAKER_02]: It's not a justification.
32:56
[SPEAKER_02]: It doesn't excuse the hurt, but it is the explanation.
32:59
[SPEAKER_02]: And so again, who are you responsible for?
33:02
[SPEAKER_02]: And so at some point, everyone should have a timeline once they're married.
33:06
[SPEAKER_02]: If you're working on your marriage by yourself, I gave myself two years.
33:09
[SPEAKER_02]: Two years I was gonna do that all by myself without his participation.
33:13
[SPEAKER_02]: I was all in and I have like a seven step thing that I walk women through when I coach of what you need to do and because you need a plan, you need a guide when you're working on your marriage by yourself, you cannot wing that.
33:24
[SPEAKER_02]: I was willing to do it for two years because what you want to look for is you want to make sure that at some point your spouse does have to participate.
33:30
[SPEAKER_02]: Right.
33:30
[SPEAKER_02]: Right.
33:31
[SPEAKER_02]: Now this is the cool thing when you're dating though.
33:33
[SPEAKER_02]: That would be a red flag, right?
33:34
[SPEAKER_02]: Because if you're all in and you're working in your self and then you've got a bum partner.
33:38
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, the good news is you get to leave whenever you want your married with kids and a mortgage.
33:43
[SPEAKER_02]: It's not that simple, right?
33:45
[SPEAKER_02]: That's why it's really cool when you realize this and listening when you're dating because it's not too late to say this isn't the right person for me.
33:52
[SPEAKER_02]: They're not making efforts.
33:53
[SPEAKER_03]: So bacon, I want to ask you one follow-ups.
33:56
[SPEAKER_03]: So two years, you're holding all this in yourself.
33:59
[SPEAKER_03]: I guess maybe it's a question for Casey too, but like what was that turnaround point?
34:03
[SPEAKER_03]: And then like, how did you also deal with that?
34:06
[SPEAKER_03]: Because I feel like, I can't even fathom it.
34:09
[SPEAKER_03]: I can't fathom sitting in that for two years.
34:11
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, it ended up not being tears, and that being 13 months, thankfully, but I had given myself, they say, like, in my seven steps, I say, give yourself an internal timeline.
34:20
[SPEAKER_02]: I walk that process through of how long some people can tolerate that for decades, by the way.
34:25
[SPEAKER_02]: That's not me.
34:26
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm too strong of a woman.
34:27
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm like, that's not me, but there's a lot of woman who can can handle that.
34:30
[SPEAKER_02]: So it was very hard, I want to say that, it's not easy, but once you start doing the different tools and you start focusing on yourself and you start seeing your partner through the eyes of compassion, your heart softens.
34:43
[SPEAKER_02]: You have more awareness, your more whole, you're not responsive, you're living in forgiveness.
34:48
[SPEAKER_02]: I remember going up to Casey and I randomly apologized for being controlling in that season.
34:53
[SPEAKER_02]: I had never apologized in our marriage until that point.
34:56
[SPEAKER_02]: And I said, you know, for years, you've been telling me that I'm controlling.
35:00
[SPEAKER_02]: And you know what?
35:00
[SPEAKER_02]: You're right.
35:01
[SPEAKER_02]: And his job, what?
35:02
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, dropped.
35:03
[SPEAKER_02]: And I said, and I am so sorry that I have been so controlling and manipulative towards you.
35:09
[SPEAKER_02]: And you don't deserve that.
35:11
[SPEAKER_02]: And that softened his heart, that softened my heart, owning your stuff feels so good.
35:17
[SPEAKER_02]: It's hard at first, but it's freeing.
35:19
[SPEAKER_02]: And then as I walk through like forgiveness techniques, and I started to heal other parts of my life,
35:24
[SPEAKER_02]: It's hard in the beginning, but then once you get the momentum and you see the fruit of it and you see you change and not be responsive, it's actually not that bad.
35:32
[SPEAKER_02]: But I would be curious what you would say of how you responded.
35:35
[SPEAKER_02]: Because I was my journey, right?
35:37
[SPEAKER_00]: Mm-hmm.
35:37
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, well, was seeing Megan model healthy behavior that inspired me to want to change.
35:43
[SPEAKER_00]: and it makes me think about probably the worst kind of message the least sexiest message about relationships is this.
35:50
[SPEAKER_00]: Somebody's got to go first.
35:52
[SPEAKER_00]: And if you're listening to this, it's probably you.
35:54
[SPEAKER_00]: And guess what, that sucks.
35:56
[SPEAKER_00]: Because I think stepping into the marriage space, there's a lot of tools for couples that are never used.
36:02
[SPEAKER_00]: Because rarely do both people want to help the relationship out at the same time.
36:07
[SPEAKER_00]: One person kind of wakes up from the dead and says holy crap like we've got to change course We have to to where this and they're trying to wake their dead partner and then what happens is and this is what we here is years go by of Well if he's not gonna do it then I'm not gonna do it.
36:25
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah
36:25
[SPEAKER_00]: And the message of if you want to make a better marriage, it starts by making a better you.
36:30
[SPEAKER_00]: Is a message of empowerment that you have agency to work on yourself, to better yourself, which, by the way, increases your own sense of happiness, peace, joy.
36:42
[SPEAKER_00]: If you start working on resentment and your partner isn't, you're the one experiencing all the benefits of it.
36:47
[SPEAKER_02]: I wasn't triggered anymore because I had worked all my triggers and so he was sitting there living there in all his triggers and I'm like, sucks to be him.
36:54
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, he's responsible for his own triggers.
36:56
[SPEAKER_02]: I didn't lay that.
36:57
[SPEAKER_02]: No, it's totally true.
36:58
[SPEAKER_02]: But I thought that and I was like, wow, that was me a year ago.
37:01
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh my gosh, like this is so much better on this side.
37:03
[SPEAKER_02]: And as people, you know,
37:05
[SPEAKER_02]: We have a pretty large social media following, and people always ask, gosh, does it hurt your feelings?
37:09
[SPEAKER_02]: Cause, you know, people are just mean or jerky or whatever.
37:11
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm like, no, because I know my worth.
37:13
[SPEAKER_02]: I know that that's not me.
37:15
[SPEAKER_02]: That's them hurting, and then they're just taking out on someone that they think they know, but they don't even know me.
37:19
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, you learn quickly.
37:21
[SPEAKER_02]: And then like even with boundaries, I was able to create healthy boundaries.
37:25
[SPEAKER_02]: Kind of like how he brought up, like, I wasn't gonna allow him to yell.
37:28
[SPEAKER_02]: anymore and I just didn't yell anymore and I'm not a yeller of a mom and I'm not a yeller of a wife because I was like, I am that person now and I'm not going to be that person the future.
37:37
[SPEAKER_02]: So then it feels really good to show up healthy and I'm not perfect by no means, but when I would make a mistake, no, no, I'm not.
37:45
[SPEAKER_02]: But when I would make a mistake, I was so quick to apologize versus holding it in and anger and resentment, I'm not going to apologize.
37:53
[SPEAKER_00]: And I'm no longer an angry person either.
37:55
[SPEAKER_00]: Thank God.
37:56
[SPEAKER_00]: A person that walked into marriage and like, who is this person?
37:59
[SPEAKER_00]: I've never been angry at anybody.
38:01
[SPEAKER_00]: And here I am angry all the time.
38:03
[SPEAKER_00]: That person's gone.
38:04
[SPEAKER_03]: So is there a play that like, it's too far gone though, or like, can anyone get
38:09
[SPEAKER_03]: because I think that's like the part of still sitting in like I get like having a time frame of like okay I'll give it my all for this time but if someone's just not needing you at all and they're not giving any effort Toleration yeah like how long are you going to tolerate being emotionally abandoned in the relationship or a that's one of the ice so to make it simple
38:29
[SPEAKER_02]: This is what we go through as life and marriage coaches.
38:31
[SPEAKER_02]: The four days are this abandonment, affairs, abuse, and addiction.
38:36
[SPEAKER_02]: Now, can we recover from those things?
38:38
[SPEAKER_02]: Absolutely, but you have to have two willing people to do that.
38:40
[SPEAKER_02]: So if there's an affair, our affairs recoverable.
38:43
[SPEAKER_02]: They are, actually.
38:44
[SPEAKER_02]: In fact, 62% of married couples choose to recover more than divorce, so you'd think like most people would just choose divorce, but most actually choose to recover.
38:53
[SPEAKER_02]: So we've seen it, it's beautiful, it's hard, but is it for everybody?
38:57
[SPEAKER_02]: No, and there's a few factors into that.
38:58
[SPEAKER_02]: So that would be one.
38:59
[SPEAKER_02]: Addiction.
39:00
[SPEAKER_02]: You don't want to be married or not it?
39:01
[SPEAKER_02]: You shouldn't be dating an addict.
39:03
[SPEAKER_02]: An addict needs to go get help for themselves.
39:05
[SPEAKER_02]: Can they?
39:06
[SPEAKER_02]: Absolutely.
39:06
[SPEAKER_02]: And we are huge advocates for that.
39:08
[SPEAKER_02]: And you can support them and love them, but they need to get help for themselves.
39:11
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, let's talk about abandonment.
39:13
[SPEAKER_02]: So abandonment is what Casey was leaning towards where it's at some point, which you it sounds like your friends going through, where someone has to finally step up and live out their vows that they promise.
39:25
[SPEAKER_02]: They have to show a abandonment is actually in the Glecht is a form of child abuse.
39:30
[SPEAKER_02]: It should be in there.
39:31
[SPEAKER_00]: There's no scars.
39:32
[SPEAKER_02]: There's no scars.
39:33
[SPEAKER_00]: It's harder to kind of identify, but abandonment is this idea of just some just quits,
39:42
[SPEAKER_00]: talked about that before.
39:43
[SPEAKER_00]: I've heard you guys talk about that.
39:44
[SPEAKER_00]: It's really, really hard.
39:46
[SPEAKER_00]: It's very confusing for the person, too.
39:48
[SPEAKER_02]: It's very lonely.
39:49
[SPEAKER_00]: So is there a point at which, you know, I've worked with several husbands that their wives have complained to them for years to engage.
39:58
[SPEAKER_00]: And now they're walking out the door with the kids not to return.
40:01
[SPEAKER_00]: And he's like, Casey, what can I do to save my marriage?
40:04
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm like, I don't think there's anything you can do.
40:06
[SPEAKER_00]: It's done.
40:06
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and if you're in a marriage and you're doing all the work, you're teaching your spouse that you'll tolerate them being emotionally and so that's why there's a timeline there so at some point they have to step up and in the last one, of course, is abuse where we have a zero tolerance for any kind of physical abuse sexual abuse emotional abuse.
40:24
[SPEAKER_02]: that has to stop, right?
40:26
[SPEAKER_02]: So yes, if there's a four A, whether it's all of them, one of them, that is when often we would say those are definitely grounds for separation or divorce.
40:33
[SPEAKER_02]: But of course, meet with someone before you make that decision, meet with a therapist, we have resources, meet with a coach, because that's obviously a huge decision to make.
40:42
[SPEAKER_03]: Well, I mean, this has been such a great conversation.
40:45
[SPEAKER_03]: So insidefall, I think my biggest takeaway is with all of this is, you know, a lot of times we think marriage is the end.
40:51
[SPEAKER_03]: It's once we find that partner, it'll all be spousyly.
40:55
[SPEAKER_03]: And I think this is really shown that that is not the case.
40:58
[SPEAKER_03]: In using dating and the time building up to getting married, that's the time to build these skills.
41:04
[SPEAKER_03]: So every time there is a conflict or something that doesn't go 100% the way you want it to, I think reframing to be like, this is just helping us for the long haul is such a better way.
41:14
[SPEAKER_03]: And I think the other big thing I'm taking away with this too is it's so easy to just say, like, I'm gonna go.
41:20
[SPEAKER_03]: And I think there are times that it does make sense, like you pointed out, the four A's, like there is a time that you can't just keep living in something, especially if someone is at willing to take steps.
41:31
[SPEAKER_03]: But I do think marriage, I mean, you are taking a vow, and I think what you said, making of just, I would rather know that I gave it my all and put my ego aside.
41:41
[SPEAKER_03]: And look at this person as a human.
41:43
[SPEAKER_03]: It feels like when conflict comes in marriage, it's almost like in early dating, this me versus you, and we even say like in our book and like in this podcast, like we can go in with a partner mentality that's just a much better way to connect, and we need to bring that into marriage, like we're signing up to be partners, so it's kind of funny that that falls to the wayside, but I think in the heat of conflict, it can so easily fall away.
42:06
[SPEAKER_05]: I'm just hearing the word trust trust trust.
42:09
[SPEAKER_05]: I keep hearing that word and I'm not surprised that it's more important than ever in a relationship, in a marriage, in building a relationship.
42:17
[SPEAKER_05]: And yes, one part is trusting your partner, trusting your relationship.
42:22
[SPEAKER_05]: But what I'm hearing you say Megan is trusting yourself as a lot of this building trust.
42:26
[SPEAKER_05]: Yes.
42:27
[SPEAKER_05]: The way you're talking about how you work through kind of working on yourself and of a really beautiful way I kept picturing you
42:34
[SPEAKER_05]: freeing yourself from the relationship and then finding your way back.
42:38
[SPEAKER_05]: So it wasn't so much like fighting for the relationship and the outcome of your marriage to work out.
42:45
[SPEAKER_05]: But it's finding a direction for yourself that's clear that's strong and if you happen to be aligned, the two of you, then you come back together.
42:54
[SPEAKER_05]: So I think it's like the trust of yourself knowing that you are
43:00
[SPEAKER_05]: about what you tolerate and won't tolerate that you won't be making the wrong decisions in your relationship because you are so trusting of yourself and you feel safe with yourself.
43:11
[SPEAKER_05]: So thank you for that because I think that applies to every part of dating, not just marriages, but for anybody who's even single right now, like where am I going with this and there's so many unknowns and am I making the right decision, building that trust in yourself is empowering yourself with these skills and tools that are available to us.
43:29
[SPEAKER_00]: And you, I just want to say something because it's a real salient point is that the etymology of confidence, the root word is fidiri, Latin fidiri, which is trust.
43:40
[SPEAKER_00]: So confidence is actually our ability to trust ourselves.
43:44
[SPEAKER_00]: But if you don't do the work of working on yourself and working through triggers, becoming more aware of who am I, how do I show up for life?
43:53
[SPEAKER_00]: How can you trust yourself if you don't know yourself?
43:56
[SPEAKER_00]: And so when I hear all these conferences about confidence, right?
44:00
[SPEAKER_00]: Because that's a big word right now.
44:02
[SPEAKER_00]: It's actually as simple as that.
44:04
[SPEAKER_00]: Just getting to know oneself is the pathway to building confidence.
44:09
[SPEAKER_00]: And confidence is the new sexy.
44:12
[SPEAKER_05]: That is.
44:12
[SPEAKER_05]: That's beautiful.
44:13
[SPEAKER_05]: That's a great note to end on.
44:15
[SPEAKER_05]: When we build confidence in ourselves, we will have more agency over the choices we make in our lives and to lead the life that we want, which could lead to the most beautiful relationship and or a marriage.
44:27
[SPEAKER_05]: Thank you to so nice to hear the side of the story and hear that you're helping out all these couples out there.
44:33
[SPEAKER_05]: Helping us navigate this very much uncharted territory right now.
44:37
[SPEAKER_01]: For anybody who wants to hear more about you and the resources that you provide where can they go?
44:41
[SPEAKER_01]: just head to marriage365.com and you'll see everything we've got.
44:45
[SPEAKER_03]: Great and we'll link it in our show notes as well.
44:47
[SPEAKER_01]: Thanks ladies for having us.
44:49
[SPEAKER_01]: It was fun.
44:49
[SPEAKER_05]: Yay!
44:50
[SPEAKER_05]: And if you haven't done so yet, subscribe to the psychology of relationships today so you don't miss an episode.
44:57
[SPEAKER_05]: And we'll see you all next week.
44:58
[SPEAKER_05]: Bye!