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S2 E1 | Why No One Wins When a Woman Is Devalued · Therapy and Theology

• Lysa TerKeurst: Welcome to a new series of Therapy & Theology. The title of this one is one of my favorites, Let's Stop Avoiding This Conversation, Six Topics Women Have Big Questions About. Today is episode one, and we're specifically focusing in episode one on why it doesn't help anyone for a woman to be devalued. So, welcome guys. Jim Cress: Good to be here. Lysa TerKeurst: Yeah. This is so fun to gather and talk about important issues today. This is Dr. Joel Muddamalle with me. And then of course we have Jim Cress, licensed professional counselor with a whole bunch of other degrees behind his name. I always joke and say that Joel brings the theology, Jim brings the therapy, and I bring the questions and issues. So, you're welcome. Jim Cress: You're so honest about that. Lysa TerKeurst: Yes. Yes. So why is Therapy & Theology needed? And specifically, why is a series devoted to women important for us to cover? I think it's important to bring the therapy and the theology because you deserve good answers, both spiritually and emotionally. And so, we're going to definitely tackle that from these questions. We're going to tackle it from both of those important perspectives and lenses. And of course, you know that Therapy & Theology is part of Proverbs 31 Ministries. And Proverbs 31 Ministries exists for women to know the truth and live the truth, because when they do it changes everything. So, the purpose of this entire podcast, not just this series, is not to give specific personalized advice to individuals. This should not take place of going to see a licensed professional counselor that can help you navigate the nuances of your relationships, your issues, your past, all of that. But rather we want to provide a safe place to talk about real things that you may be facing, provide therapeutic and the theological, there you go, theological wisdom so you can be empowered to seek out the help and healing you may need. And just on a personal note, I will say that incorporating the therapeutic wisdom of Jim and the theological wisdom of Joel has tremendously helped me in my own healing journey. So, thank you both. And I'm so excited to share you with the world. Jim Cress: Thank you. Lysa TerKeurst: So, Jim and Joel, what are some of the challenges that you see women facing in ever-increasing measures right now? Jim, we’ll start with you. Jim Cress: Yeah, we are in several really different pandemics. There is a global COVID pandemic that is going on. And no matter when this series is watched, who knows when it really ends, that pandemic? We're also, we've talked about this as a whole other topic, and yay one topic that's coming up, which is on a porn-demic. The pornography rates were already bad enough, but skyrocketed during COVID and the pandemic, and the impact, especially since what this series is about, on women. I don't think we know yet how bad it is. And then of course we are in truly, look around, we are in a global mental health pandemic. So, these mental health issues have come to the surface. And I could list off, I won't, but myriad of... Big one I saw in the counseling office was, everybody went home, "You up in my space right now." I mean, I'd said, "You need social distancing at home." So, I felt like, "Whoa, where do I get my space rather organically?" But then there's the reality of just the major life change and shift that these things like, Proverbs 20:5 says, "The purposes in our hearts are deep waters." So, we go down deep to draw them out. I've watched things just become buoyant and they begin to come up to the surface and people are like, "What's going on?" Well, I think a lot of what's going on is the environment, and we couldn't keep certain things at bay. And a lot of us were scared, anxiety issues around a pandemic, huge. Like, "I can't control this." And as we've said too many times, the brain's wired for confidence in knowing. So, everybody's afraid of, "Well, what's coming next?" You can't prove, you can't really predict what is coming next. And I think part of that is going to be too, the idea of, we say that people are down on what they're not up on. We can read all we want on the internet and learn, but there's a sense of, "It's a-historical, I've never been through this before." Lysa TerKeurst: Well, I remember... Of course, we're recording this in the latter months of 2022. Jim Cress: Yeah, hopefully. Lysa TerKeurst: And who would've thought at this point that we would still be referencing COVID 19 and all of that, and that's not where we're going today. But what I do want to focus in on is, we're very much seeing a severe uptick in mental health issues and emotional trauma. And I remember, Jim Cress, probably when the pandemic was first starting, I was asking you, "Why are we seeing such a rise in the numbers of women being devastated in their marriages or in women really suffering, and their suffering seems more apparent?" And I remember you looking at me and saying, "Well, Lysa, they are spending so much time at home. They're forced to see some issues." It's like draining the lake. And then you really see what's there. Whereas busyness and busier routines were definitely helping to make, at least, it less likely that we had to face some really tough things. But now we're facing them. Jim Cress: Well, that busyness is a proven, believe it or not. Because I admit, I struggle with my own anxiety issues. I do. I'm not afraid of that. And I have the resources and resiliency to deal with it. Anxiety, don't worry about just get resilient, and get the resources to deal with it. And what happens is when I'm there, like you say, everybody going home and facing this, is the busyness is a major distraction. It's like, I say, you're water skiing on top of that lake, the pandemic or other things happen, and suddenly you let go of the rope and you're just sinking down in the water that's been there the entire time. And that's what that pandemic did. It's there been there the whole time. Lysa TerKeurst: And I think also now busyness is kicked back in. So now we're dealing with the stresses of not being able to unsee what we see, or what we saw, and the stresses and strains of returning back to busier schedules is placed on top of these emotional traumas that we have to deal with. So, I think 10 or 15 years ago, I don't ever remember me or my friends discussing hard topics around emotional trauma and mental health issues, such as narcissism, gaslighting, codependency, and even emotional abuse. A couple other words, triggers, addictions. We just didn't talk about those things, because maybe we didn't have the language to, or maybe it seemed like topics that were reserved for psychological settings, not everyday carpool lines. Jim Cress: That's well put, yeah. Lysa TerKeurst: Right? But now I feel like people are starting to become very aware of these topics. And not just in our Christian circles, they're becoming aware everywhere. And so, we didn't have the language before to talk about it, and now we are more hyper aware that it exists. But it's, I think, being more talked about because we're becoming more aware that there are more and more toxic relationships. I certainly- Joel Muddamalle: Mm-hmm. Jim Cress: And being able to talk about it or have the nomenclature to name those problems, we all know this, doesn't mean I have the resources and tools, as St. Paul would say, to go put into practice. I just am more informed. Sometimes that's worse. "What do I do with all this information I have?" Joel Muddamalle: Mm-hmm. Lysa TerKeurst: Mm-hmm. But I remember one time you were saying to me, I really questioned why weren't we talking about these before and why am I now, 53 years old, and I'm just now getting educated of how to even have the vocabulary to have discussions around this or to even name the real issues that exist. And I remember you saying, Jim, "Lysa, you need to give yourself some grace, because when you know better, you will do better." Jim Cress: Do better. Joel Muddamalle: Do better. Lysa TerKeurst: And I really agree with that statement. I think issues around mental health are both enlightening and very challenging. But also, for me, I'm seeing so many women my age facing the shock of an unknown future, because some relationships aren't making it. Some relationships have become unsustainable because of the level of toxicity in those relationships. And I'm seeing more than ever, maybe it's because of my personal story or maybe just the numbers are higher, I don't know, but I'm hearing from more and more women my age, and of all ages really, facing unwanted divorces. So, part of the challenge that we're also facing with the mental health crisis is our own heartbreak. It's not just past trauma now, we're experiencing current trauma. And certainly, when you walk through a severe relationship issue, there's going to be a lot of heartbreak, and it's really going to make some of those emotional issues, maybe even mental health issues, even more apparent and hard to deal with because you're compounding it. But an equally challenging thing to navigate is the lack of theological awareness when it comes to the Christian's response to separation, to relationships falling apart, and specifically to divorce. People say extremely hurtful things, because I think it's assumed that Christians will make sure that all relationships last for all time. But we don't even see that with relationships in the Bible, so I don't know why we would think that we would see it in today's everyday life, right? Joel Muddamalle: Yeah, mm-hmm. Lysa TerKeurst: And a lot of people say hurtful things, either because they don't know what to say or they feel compelled to defend God's word. The problem is, if we are violating God's word in an effort to defend God's word, we're not really honoring God's word as it was intended. So, when people weaponize verses around these hard topics hoping others won't catch divorce fever or toxic relationship fever, or whatever it is, it's just a mass of women out there that are needing answers. I don't see a mass of women out there so eager to lose relationships. I don't see a mass of women so eager to divorce their husbands. I don't see a mass of women out there looking for the easy way out to family members. I don't see them trying to peace out or tap out. I'm sure those situations exist. But what I see is women who need therapeutic and theological help to navigate not only the mental health issues that are being talked about today, but also the personal things we're facing that are compounding the mental and emotional challenges we're facing. And that is heartbreak. Joel Muddamalle: Mm-hmm, yeah. Isn't that so good, Lysa. And just to build some bridges, I think historically we've always thought about emotional and physical health as one compartmentalized category. And then all of a sudden there is theological or spiritual health in a different category. And yet the biblical vision of a human is not a demarcation of these different categories. God created us as whole human beings with physical, spiritual, and emotional all combined together. And so, it's vitally important that we understand that our spiritual health directly impacts our emotional, which flows into our physical. And it is a circle that changes in different seasons. One of the things that I've been so intrigued by is, in a society where we have more and more information, what you said earlier Jim, in a society that has more and more information, it's not surprising for me that an anxiety's on the rise. And here's why. I actually think that the more information that we have could potentially be destructive for us and actually destabilizing for us if we don't know how to think about the information, if we don't know how to connect this information with how God intends for us to rightly view it. And so Lysa, like what you're talking about, when it comes to women and how they understand their identity and their value and their worth and biblical institutions like marriage. For me, one of the things that keeps coming up is what appears to be a disconnect between what the Bible actually says about the dignity, specifically of women, and then the heartache, you were just describing it, the heartache around what the personal experience has been in this area. So, some of the discussion has been around if, for a question like, "Do women actually have value and worth in and of themselves, or is their value and worth only connected to their identity, their role, their functioning as a woman, as a wife, as a mother in their work or in their vocation, who they are in social settings?" This is creating a bit of confusion. It makes you feel unstable. Another thing I've seen is a misuse, which turns into misunderstanding, which eventually flows into misapplication of scriptures, when it comes to biblical concepts and ideals like marriage, or work, vocation, being a mom. You see there's a real danger of women being hurt, confused, or living in the tension of being told to live up to the ideal of a biblical institution, we can talk about marriage for example, while those people who are asking them to do this, and we'll get into this later, actually miss God's heartbeat for the people who are within this actual relationship. So, for me, one of the most important things for us in our time together is to think rightly about the scriptures and have a holistic view of God's ideal of what it means to be a woman made in the image and likeness of God. Lysa TerKeurst: Mm-hmm. And I think the other thing... I love the way you phrased all of that. And not only God's heartbeat, but also look at the life of Jesus. I call it the Jesus context. And how did Jesus interact with and treat women that were in very challenging situations? And even though the Bible is probably not going to identify specifically certain terminology of mental health issues, but they were there. There was emotional heartbreak, there was betrayal, there was rejection. There was treating women like an outcast, or even treating women as subhuman and giving women no rights to speak up and no ability to process what they were going through, because the social standards at the time required women just to stay quiet... Joel Muddamalle: To stay quiet. Lysa TerKeurst: ... and fulfill their roles. And their value was in the fulfillment of the roles that they played. So, I want to go there. I want to talk about some of these verses that have been weaponized. And Jim, I would love for you to add in anything from the therapeutic standpoint that you're noticing and what really happens. And maybe let's start with this question to you, Jim. What really happens when a woman is devalued, or a person is devalued, over and over and over inside of her personal relationships, in the social context, and just the overall feeling that this is right, not because it feels right, but because everyone is doing it? Jim Cress: Well, sadly, and maybe most importantly, for me, of what I see is, for that precious woman to start believing the data, if not indeed the words or accusations, not just of the devil, but of this person that she is in a relationship with. And somehow, it's like those violent words, like a plane, land. And they're landing and she doesn't know what to do with them. She's maybe scratching her head saying, "Well, what if they're right? What if that's true?" It really sets up... A term we've used on this podcast many times, and I love the term. I think it sets up her to hustle for her worthiness. "Maybe if I do more." Sets up people pleasing, codependency. Joel Muddamalle: It's called works righteousness in theological circles. Jim Cress: Yeah. Lysa TerKeurst: Mm-hmm. Jim Cress: So, she begins to move and think "Maybe..." and doubt her own reality. And a classic one I've used, right? It's not original with me, but for her sometimes stresses with her gut says "No," but her mouth says "Yes." Or her gut says "Stop," but her mouth says "Go," or "Yeah, I'll do that." But she'll begin to find and try to find... And grace and mercy, who could blame her? But she'll try to find an external solution to that internal problem. Those external voices become internal, and she starts believing that. And after a while it can be false identity, but can feel like her own identity. Lysa TerKeurst: And I think everyone loses when a woman is devalued. Jim Cress: Absolutely. Lysa TerKeurst: It's not just the woman, but it is everyone that woman's life has the potential to enrich. But if she feels less than constantly, she will no longer start believing or she will no longer keep believing that she has the ability to enrich people's lives beyond what those people want her to do for them. Joel Muddamalle: And I'll go a step further with that, Lysa. I think it also is destructive for the social structure of our human existence. Jim Cress: Bigger. Yes. Joel Muddamalle: Right? It is actually a stripping of the fabric of what keeps our society together. And women have a crucial role to play in that. And so yes, it's individual. But absolutely is it corporate and cultural. Lysa TerKeurst: So, Joel, let's go ahead and look from a theological standpoint. Where's the biblical support for this? And why is it important from a theological standpoint to get this right? And why everyone loses when a woman is devalued. Joel Muddamalle: Yeah. I'll start actually with one of Jim’s sayings that is one of my favorite things that he says. He says that our words frame our reality. And boy is this true emotionally, but incredibly theologically. So, you open up in the first couple chapters of Genesis and we've... Here's the other danger. We've become familiar with some of these verses to the point that we've allowed our modern cultural context to inform a historical biblical context. And so, what I want to do is kind of take a step back and just say- Lysa TerKeurst: Okay, I want you to say that one more time, because I really want people to hear what you just said. Joel Muddamalle: Yeah. At times when we're in the Bible, what ends up happening is, because we get familiar with it, we can allow our modern cultural context to inform words that are rooted in a historical biblical and social context. So, two key examples, I'm going to sneak in a third potentially. But one is this famous, you hear it at weddings and engagement ceremonies, but God made a woman from Adam's what? His... Lysa TerKeurst: Well, side. Some versions say side, some say rib. Joel Muddamalle: Right. So, Genesis 2, we'll start in verse 20. So, the man gives name to all these livestock, to the birds of the sky, to every wild animal, "But for the man..." and we're going to get to helper later, "But for the man, no helper was found corresponding to him. So, the Lord God caused a deep sleep to come over the man and he slept. And God took one of his..." I'm reading from CSB, "one of his ribs and closed the flesh at that place. Then the Lord God made the rib that he had taken from the man into a woman and brought her to the man." Now some translations say "rib," some of the more nuanced translations are going to say "side." Well, why? This is the Hebrew word tsela. And I was doing some word study in this in Jim loves- Lysa TerKeurst: We love when you do word study, by the way. Jim Cress: We do. I really... Yeah, no question. Joel Muddamalle: Well, I found something interesting. And y'all, I've been through a lot of school, undergraduate, MDiv, PhD. I've done a lot of schooling in this area. Lysa TerKeurst: And we love that you've done a lot of school. Jim Cress: Yes, we do. Joel Muddamalle: But here's the tragic... And I'm trying to connect some dots, even in formal theological training that I think I need to confess and just say, this wasn't taught to me in my Genesis survey class, in my in-depth Genesis... So, I'm just pointing out. If you're like, Joel, "I feel so bad." I don't want you to feel bad. I just good want to invite you into the learning process. And one of the things I learned about this Hebrew word is that it is intimately connected to the stability of an object or a person. So Lysa, I know one of the things that you love is, what do we call it? Renovating homes. And we had a situation in our house where we wanted to take a wall down and we asked you, "Hey, what do you think?" And one of the first things you said was, "Joel, you got to be careful. Make sure that wall isn't," what? Lysa TerKeurst: Load bearing. Joel Muddamalle: Load bearing, which means that there's a beam that goes up to the very top. It's a stabilizing beam. Lysa TerKeurst: Yeah, because if that wall's load bearing and you take it down, you must put a supporting beam, which is expensive. Joel Muddamalle: Super expensive. Lysa TerKeurst: Especially if you're going to get it up into the ceiling. But it is required, because if not the structure will not be stable. Joel Muddamalle: So, think about this from an architectural standpoint. Ain't nobody thinking, "Ooh, I think I'm just going to take the risk of not putting the support," right? Jim Cress: Hopefully not, yeah. Joel Muddamalle: Because that could be catastrophic for everybody inside of that home, even guests that you have in. So, let's make the connection here. The rib and... I'm going to put our modern kind of understanding. You could crack a rib, no big deal. It's going to be super painful, but you can keep living, right? Lysa TerKeurst: Mm-hmm. Joel Muddamalle: But you take the side of a person that actually gives them the stability to walk and to be held together. There is no functioning at that standpoint. This is the imagery that the biblical language, the Hebrew language, is giving of the creation of women from the side of man. And so, then you have a different framework. Lysa TerKeurst: Okay. So is it more like a bigger portion of the man has been taken- Joel Muddamalle: I think so. Yeah, I think so. I think it's a massive portion of the man. I think- Lysa TerKeurst: A massive portion, to the point where maybe he requires a stabilizing force? Joel Muddamalle: I mean, yeah, I think that's the biblical... Now we can't go too far in the literal standpoint of it, but I think this is the imagery that we're supposed to get. And it's super important because it establishes the value and the worth and the identity of these two people, right? It refuses to allow one to be superior and the other inferior, because it puts the man in a position of actually intimate weakness without the woman present. And so, the social structure is a social structure where both are brought together in order to bring a whole. And when both are brought together and bring a whole, it brings honor and glory to God, because it bears the full image of God, right? Jim Cress: By the way, do you realize you seriously just gave a wonderful, in my opinion, description of why maybe there's so much verbal and emotional abuse that may be coming from men toward women? Because you take her away, and... I talk about their sexual objectification, she's just an object. But there's emotional and relational object. I certainly don't see her bearing the Imago Dei, the image of God. But if I can make her just an object and she doesn't have that strength coming my way... I love when you said that, I thought, "Boy, that ties right into, especially, emotional abuse." Joel Muddamalle: That's so good. And so that takes us to our next verse. Genesis 2, starting in verse 17. Actually, it goes after that, verse 18, "Then the Lord God said," and he's talking to Adam, "It is not good for man to be alone." Then he says this, "I will make a helper corresponding to him." Now I'm going to, again, go back to what have we done culturally with this word helper? I did a poll. We work in a women's ministry, and we asked some friends that are in the office. When you hear the word helper, Lysa, what do you think of when you hear helper? Lysa TerKeurst: Well, before we started studying this, I would say one who helps another with stuff that she can help with. And so, my original image of this helper in the context of my life was that I need to help take care of the home. I need to be the nurturing force with my kids. I need to wash the dishes and do the laundry and run the errands and all of that. And I don't think any of those things are what we're not supposed to be doing. I think though, instead of focusing on the roles that we play- Joel Muddamalle: The activities, yeah. Lysa TerKeurst: ... I want to focus on the value. And I think we've missed the value tucked inside that word helper. Jim Cress: Good. Joel Muddamalle: And the Hebrew word helper is ezer. And as we look at this word used... And so, we have this thing that we talk about, Lysa, often when we're doing theological study, the law first mentions, you know? This is the first time that this word is being mentioned, it's being used. It's this deeply rich Hebrew word. We need to really ask and pause and consider, "Okay, if this is the first time it's used, how is it used elsewhere? What is the weight of the usage of this word?" Really intriguing when I was studying this is, the overwhelming majority of the time that ezer is used later on in Scripture, it's a descriptive word to describe Yahweh, God, who is stepping in to intervene to help Israel, who is in the midst of being destroyed, typically in a military situation. The Philistines- Jim Cress: So, it's not a passive word at all. Joel Muddamalle: No. Jim Cress: Isn't that amazing? Joel Muddamalle: I mean it has militaristic overtones. It has authority. It brings stability. And I think I want to go back to that. Israel is on the verge of losing their stability. The Canaanites and the Philistines are about to whoop them and destroy them, right? And now you have Yahweh who comes in as a stabilizing, rescuing figure to bring them out of their plight. This is the picture. This is the image from the very beginning, prior to the fall, we didn't even get to Genesis 3 yet, of God's ideal and heartbeat for a woman, for her value, for her worth. And so, as we think about helper, I think it's vitally important that we connect that word helper to its natural context, biblical context. And now all of a sudden you go, "Wow, there's something sorely and really tragic and damaging, if we don't have this person, this gender, this woman present, not just in our personal lives, but societally in our culture." Lysa TerKeurst: And I think it's important too, when we were looking at this together, I remember you saying that it's not the picture of a servant rising up in a temporary fashion to suddenly help the king. It is more like an ally fellow king- Joel Muddamalle: King. Good Lysa. Jim Cress: Love that picture. Lysa TerKeurst: ... who is coming in to help support when necessary aid needs to be gotten from somewhere. And so, I think that's really important too, because again, it speaks to the value of the helper. Joel Muddamalle: People might just be, and I hope you are. You're like, "Hey, wait a minute. Where did you get that thought of an ally king?" Well, Genesis 1:26-27. It says that God made man. And that Hebrew word, it includes women, man and woman. He made them in his likeness and image. These are two Hebrew words, tselem and demuth. Now this super intriguing, again with this, these are words to describe a king who would have offspring and his children would be referred to as being in the king's likeness and image. And so again, this is the picture that is being painted of Adam and Eve together, prior to the fall. They both are reflections of royalty. And so yeah, one king is about to fall. This stabilizing figure of equal worth and value comes in over the hills. And I just think from the Israelite standpoint, what a pleasant site, what a breath of fresh air, what hope fulfilled when you think all is lost to see the ezer, the helper, the person who's going to bring stability and help you. And that I think, regardless of where else we go in this series, if we just get this one part and aspect of God's vision for the identity and value and worth of a woman, I think it can have such a redemptive and really important consequences for all these other aspects that we'll discuss in the coming episodes. Lysa TerKeurst: In episode two of this series, we're really going to go after emotional abuse. What is it and how it contributes to the silencing of a woman. But Joel, before we end this one, and Jim I want your perspective too, is there a place in the Bible where we see a woman described more as a valiant warrior woman, not just as a homemaker or a caretaker? And again, I'm not talking about throwing the baby out with the bath water here. I love being a caretaker. I love being the nurturing force in my home. I actually love doing laundry. I really do. But I think my value, if I can keep my value in mind, that my value is that I am made in the image and likeness of God, the Imago Dei. And then even, and I'm going to just kind of bait you toward the answer I want you to give... Jim Cress: Follow suit please. Lysa TerKeurst: But even the name of our ministry, Proverbs 31, I've often heard her described as a wife of noble character. And again, I think that's beautiful. But there's also this sense that she is a woman of valor. Joel Muddamalle: That's right. Lysa TerKeurst: And I think if we only assign her value to a role, like she's a wife of noble character, then we're missing the reality that she's also a woman of valor, and her worth is found in the valor, the woman of valor, that got established her to be. So Jim, from an emotional standpoint, the women coming into your office, they're dealing with hurts, they're dealing with heartbreak, they're dealing with feeling devalued, maybe in a relationship, maybe in family of origin, maybe in their job, maybe even in their calling, and they're feeling devalued. What does this do to a woman? And how could this information help her? Jim Cress: Yeah, it's a great question. And many places to go. One is, I'm always mindful, the great book we've talked about, The Body Keeps the Score, so that in the body, she can begin to develop mental health issues, stress, GI tract problems. I mean the body just remembers. So inside we call that somatic or somatizing. In my body, it's like, "I'm going to be the woman who throws grenades," hopefully not, "but I might swallow grenades." So, the impact is noticing around sleep, around so many different issues. So, to pay attention, what can go on there. And then in the psyche or the brain, the soul, the mind, of beginning to believe the accusations. We know that Satan's the accuser of everyone. But to begin to believe these and internalize them and basically do something to their own mind, their own belief system, where they begin to believe lies. There are books written called The Lies Women Believe. And I internalize them. And suddenly the more I do that, as Aristotle would say, that we are what we repeatedly do and think, really. So suddenly my operating system changes and I've internalized these, and that's part of the problem. And I think that the other part is just, inside you reference family of origin. We've said, "If it's hysterical, it's historical." To look and maybe that question, you're like, "Maybe dad was right," because dad either sinned by omission or commission. He said these things about me, or mom did, or someone else. We always want to look in life through all of your journey, how you've been named. "You dummy, you idiot." We could say really derogatory words, not to be funny. We won't say them. You've heard them out there. So, the idea is I begin to believe how I have been named. God's word tells us very clearly how he names us. But I'll internalize these things as though I'm living under the name of this, versus... In Jesus renaming Peter even. It's believing these names, and of course that will flow in generations, I believe, that I might, if I don't have my own identity in Christ especially, that I can believe that. And how am I going to interact as a person, a friend, a spouse, and a mother? I think it's wide-ranging impact. Lysa TerKeurst: So again, no one wins when a woman is devalued. Jim Cress: No one wins. Satan thinks he wins for the moment. He loses in the end, but he thinks he wins. Lysa TerKeurst: And when a woman is devalued, from a psychological standpoint, a mental health standpoint, and emotional health standpoint, it's traumatic when a woman is devalued. Jim Cress: Very much. Lysa TerKeurst: And also from a spiritual standpoint, it is traumatic. And trauma is not something that just happens to you. It happens in you. Jim Cress: That's right. Joel Muddamalle: So good. Lysa TerKeurst: So, Joel, let's go to the woman of valor. Joel Muddamalle: Yeah. So, Proverbs 31, the woman of valor. And then I want to connect us to Jesus. Because at the end of the day, we need to really get to, "Did Jesus believe any of this?" Otherwise, it's not going to make any sense. But interestingly, Proverbs 31 is all about this valiant warrior type woman. She is a woman that... And so again, what we do is we take helper and we think homemaker, right? But actually, the picture that's here is a season where the men have gone out to war, and this is the background. The men have gone off to war, and now these women step in and they're handling business. They're handling budget. The way that the ancient home was run, if you're handling the home, you're handling the land, you're handling the commerce that's taking place in the marketplace. I mean, these are women of status. They're women of stature. They're women that are doing valuable, valuable work. In fact, so important that the way that Proverbs 31 lays all this out, it actually refuses, if we read it rightly, to locate women in a corner that says, "Oh, they're just a homemaker. Oh, their place is in the home." And it's not to say that those things are bad. It's just saying that those things aren't what define the woman. Those things aren't God's ideal of saying that's the only thing that brings you value and worth. And again, it goes to this militaristic picture of a valiant kind of warrior woman. And I think it's important that we see it. Jim Cress: By the way, maybe handling it... No fun here, I'm not trying to be funny. Maybe handling it dynamically better than the man would. Because that was true in our own marriage, where a therapist said, well intended, "You need to take the finances away from Jim. He needs to step up." My wife had the finances organized. This is all in our testimony, in our story. And I was a nightmare, I had no business handling the finances that way, and her gift set. But maybe there are men in relationship with these women who they would even feel... I know they come into my office and say, the men do, if they're honest, how inadequate they feel in the presence of a woman of valor and value. Joel Muddamalle: That's such a good point, Jim. Because then again, it's a reframing. It's a reframing of what we understand as, "Oh, that's exposing my weakness," to "Oh my goodness, that's the helper I needed" right? Jim Cress: Yeah. Great. Lysa TerKeurst: Mm-hmm. Joel Muddamalle: But here's the thing, Lysa, that I find fascinating, and Jim, about Jesus, is that Jesus in his earthly ministry refuses to bend to the cultural norm of what a woman's role or a woman's place was going to be in a society, in an ancient culture that was known to, honestly, subjugate and devalue women. Jesus is subversive. Jesus is, in a sense, for the lack of a better word, is kind of rebellious in this area. He refuses to bend to anything other than the ideal of God the Father in it. And so, there's these two stories that I think are really important. One takes place in Luke 10:38-42. There's these two sisters, and we know the story, it's Mary and Martha. It's really interesting that the text tells us that while Martha is doing all the house stuff, which is fine, Mary understood that there's something special about Jesus. And she goes and sits at the feet of Jesus. This becomes a social stigma situation. It's bad news. Lysa TerKeurst: It's alarming. Joel Muddamalle: It's alarming. Why? Lysa TerKeurst: Because when she sits at the feet of Jesus, she's declaring that she is a disciple. Joel Muddamalle: A disciple. And Jesus is a rabbi. So, disciples in this context are male. Male disciples sit at the feet of a male rabbi. And all of a sudden you have a woman who sits at the feet of Jesus. You would think that Jesus would say, "Whoa, hold up, wait a minute. Mary, love ya, you have value and worth. I just need you to join your sister Martha in the back," right? And he doesn't. In fact, when Martha gets all upset about this, Jesus responds and he says... Let me find this. Martha is distracted by much serving. And she went up to him and said, "Lord, do you not care that my sister has left me to serve alone? Tell her then to help me." But the Lord answered, "Martha, Martha, you're anxious and troubled about many things, but one thing is necessary," and catch this, "Mary has chosen the good portion, which will not be taken away from her." He elevates Mary. Now interestingly, later on, they have a brother, his name's Lazarus, Lazarus dies. And this is John 11:17-27. And this is what I find a beautiful redemptive reversal. Because I don't know how Martha was feeling, but probably not super great when the Messiah basically rebukes her, right? Like, "Ooh, I missed that one," right? Jesus comes. And as Jesus comes, it's so intriguing that in this situation, it says, "But Mary remained seated in the house and Martha runs out to Jesus. Martha said to Jesus, 'Lord, if you had been here, my brother would not have died.'" And then Jesus, and Lysa I want you to talk about this, Jesus says to her, what is so alarming, what is so unexpected, what is so fantastic, and you would expect him to say to Mary who got it right in the first instance. But he says it to Martha. He says this, "Martha, I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live. And everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?" And she says, "Yes, Lord. I believe that you are the Christ, the son of God who is coming into the world." Jim Cress: Echoes of old Peter, isn't it? "Thou art the Christ." Joel Muddamalle: Amen. Jim Cress: Yeah, I love it. Lysa TerKeurst: And I think you would expect, maybe even beyond him to say that to Mary, you would expect him to say it to someone who could multiply that message out and who was allowed to multiply that message out, which of course would be the men, right? Jim Cress: Yeah. Lysa TerKeurst: But when he says... Jesus only gave the seven I am statements in the book of John, right? I would fight that this is one of the most important, if not the most important. Joel Muddamalle: The most, yeah. Lysa TerKeurst: And so, for him to declare to Martha that he is the resurrection and the life, to me that speaks to her value that she is a woman and that Jesus is okay with her multiplying that message out, to speak what she has experienced from Christ. Joel Muddamalle: And before anybody's like, "Well, is that just a one off? Is this just a random moment in Scripture?" No. We talked about Mary sitting at the feet of Jesus, Luke 10:39. You've got John chapter 4, with the Samaritan woman, the text said that it was necessary. Jesus had to go through Samaria. Which for a Jew going through Samaria was one of the most... What would you say? Uncool- Jim Cress: Uncool, and don't do it. Joel Muddamalle: Uncool. You would never do this. Because if you and encountered a Samaritan- Lysa TerKeurst: From the Jewish standpoint, it was forbidden. Joel Muddamalle: It was forbidden. Because if you- Lysa TerKeurst: You'd be unclean. Joel Muddamalle: You'd be unclean. Exactly. And here's a Samaritan, who's a half-breed, half Jew, half Gentile. And Jesus sits and drinks water with her at the well, and then commissions her. She goes back in and tells of this Messiah. There are the women at the resurrection. And before you get to the women at the resurrection, you've got the women who stay at the cross, Matthew 27 and John 19, Mark 15. You've got this overwhelming presence of these women in Jesus' earthly life and ministry. But Lysa, one of the ones that I think is so incredible is that in Luke 23:27-31, we've got the names of these women, right? But then Luke specifically says this, "That there were many other daughters of Jerusalem." And then Mark 15:41 says, "And there were many unnamed women," that were at the foot of the cross as Jesus the Son of God is dying. And I think what this does is it speaks to the ministry and to the life lived of Jesus, of honoring, cherishing, and championing women. Why else would a slew of women, a crowd of women, when the male disciples are nowhere to be found, why would they be the ones to be at the cross? I think it speaks to how seriously Jesus loved and cherished and valued and elevated women in a culture that would've looked at him like he was crazy. Lysa TerKeurst: And to bring it back to the Imago Dei, as we wrap up, the image of God, it must be, Joel, that women shine a very specific and unique light on part of the reality of the image of God that is unique to a woman, just like a man must shine a unique light on the image of God from a man's vantage point, from a man's makeup. And so, while we would never want to devalue a man, we certainly don't want to devalue a woman, who is made in the image of God. Because I dare say one of the biggest reasons that we lose out is that we are devaluing part of the image of God. And that's something we should never do. Now imagine this, Joel. Imagine if that Samaritan woman, who really, if you look at it, that's the beginning of Jesus' public ministry. So, she's the first evangelist, right? Joel Muddamalle: Right. Lysa TerKeurst: So, imagine if this Samaritan woman had stayed silent. Imagine if Martha had stayed silent. Imagine if Mary had stayed silent. Imagine if they had stayed silent what we would've all lost out on. Imagine if they would've stayed silent. And why would you ever want them to? And that my friends is a good place to land this episode of Therapy & Theology.